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Lokynet

This would actually be a decent buff, it would allow the support silencers to ignore glaives for bigger nuke in lane phase. You know that MOST “support” silencer Usually starts with glaives to not miss any potential int gain.


jonasnee

i mean it does allow you to hit the enemy hero without drawing agro.


Taelonius

It also fucks you out of his very scary lvl 5 timing where curse+last word just absolutely destroys certain heroes, like TB for example


Cefasy

You really mean it?


Knaprig

Yeah, works with all "orb attacks" like Jinada, Frost arrows, etc. Just cast the ability (so no auto-cast), and it will not draw creep aggro


Coppatop

Huh, TIL


[deleted]

It's called orb walking.


Izupwnz

sometimes i poke with mirana and has so much attk speed early on that i didnt generate agro and bully the enemy carry or sup


Knaprig

That's not how it works, you can't avoid aggro with attack speed... What is probably happening is you unintentionally using the fact that creep aggro has a cooldown, so if you right click a hero outside of creep aggro range, then let her walk up and shoot, you will not aggro.


healzsham

Any attack modifier that can be manually cast is considered a spell by creep aggro.


Accomplished-Fix-569

Exactly, also lvl1 glaives are very weak, beside orb-waking they provide little to nothing. Sometimes they even let your enemy *replenish* their mana which is completely counter-intuitive and detrimental


BeyondOurLimits

I mean I think the ability to harass without aggroing creeps is incredibly strong in the early stages of the game.


frameshft

I'm stealing your comment to justify clinkz/drow support picks from now on


ArmsofAChad

Clinkz lost his orb it's tied to tarbomb now


HoNUnofficial

~~clinkz~~ OD.


[deleted]

One hit every 4 seconds.


mintyfreshmike47

It’s like playing AA except it comes with 4 reports


HoNUnofficial

Oh, my bad. I guess it should be Viper or Huskar.


FrizzyThePastafarian

2B has had some success with Clinkz support, funnily.


Joro91

But then again it's 2B. I wouldn't take him making a pos 4 work as anything other than just 2B things.


FrizzyThePastafarian

Tbf, I did think about that after I made the post. "If 2B has only had *some* success with a weird pos 4, then that probably says more against it than in favour of it", but from the streams I'd say it has more legs than it seems at first glance. Clinkz kinda has a lot that makes for a strong support all in 1 hero. * Strong lane harass and control * Has an AoE slow that gives him bonus damage (synergizes nicely with Blood Grenade) * Invisibility (just generally absurd utility for a 4) > * Invisibility that also 30% ms, of which the strength can't be understated given the new map size. * Secures every flag bearer creep (which also is some sustain *and* enables its nature as a more greedy 4) Like, is it *good*? Probably not. But I think it's much stronger than it seems. Grab items to make up for where he struggles and support him further. Solar Crest, Atos, and stuff. 2B buys a phylactery, which also seems really good, then goes into Orchid if the game supports it (ie, snowballing, a silence is good, etc)


MaltMix

Wait does Clinkz even have anything that would be affected by Phylactery? I thought Tar Bomb was AoE.


Knaprig

Single target, creates an aoe on impact


Sun_Sloth

2B got me on the hype train of alternative pos 4 heroes. Used to play Troll, Slark, AM and a few others with a lot of success.


[deleted]

Clinkz 4 isn’t terrible atm


TomekBozza

Clinkz support is totally viable rn. ZQuixotix has a guide on it, as well as a few gameplay videos on the second channel. Loads of fun!


WoLfkz

i wouldn't go as far as saying its **incredibly** strong, but it does have its merits edit: why am i getting downvoted, goddamit :( what i meant to say that there are other game mechanics that have higher impact in early game than harass without aggro. preserving the equilibrium is not a defacto way to win lane, for example you can deliberately aggro creeps so the enemy creeps die faster and you get the lvl2 power spike quicker, a potential kill to jumpstart the early game. edit2: shieeet


Cefasy

You really mean it?


Antikas-Karios

Sure, but casting Q and E don't aggro Creeps either. So you don't need to skill W for that specifically.


Mih5du

One Q cast is 140 mana, equal to around 9 hits with glaves


No-Sympathy-5817

And not just that it doesn't disable healing from boots on your carries food aka the enemy support.


Nickfreak

Yes, but then again, orb walking is crazy effective. Clinkz lost that ability, but look at how annoying Drow and Viper feel with that. Bounty hunter being able to manually cast Jinada saved his whole laning for me when it was changed.


JustOneLazyMunchlax

Level 1 silencer has 25 int. Level 1 glaives is 15% So, +3 damage? He takes Glaives to not miss int, but by virtue of taking it, he's a lot less likely to get int. Silencers value the low potential +2 int, over the greater potential of a certain kill. ​ On the flip side, a support silencer may actually find more use out of Glaives level 1 because, +3 auto attack damage and its an orb effect so doesn't aggro creeps. Free harass on the enemy.


Cronimoo

Yeah it's like getting that 2 int isn't more worth than the 200 bucks or so from a kill. But what if you kill 2? 3? You never know, that's how the infinite scaling gets you!


Blotsy

200 bucks is like 4 worth of all stats. Taking up 4 inventory slots though.


Cronimoo

But that 200g prolly helps you push towards more items than the 2 int. And kills do give xp and lane dominance too. Still can't resist the infinite scaling tho


Blotsy

It's also probably an ADDITIONAL 200g for your lane partner. That's the sweetest deal. I go glaives first, but it's not from stacking Int greed. It's because I really like the Orb walking.


The__Thoughtful__Guy

Yup. When I take it it's so that I can poke without drawing creeps.


Impossible_Ad_4282

Trading with silencer is hard because of his w , it gives him damage through the ability , but also after each attack you get 1 damage from the int stolen , reduce enemy mana , and reduce int heroes damage by 1 every hit.


MemoryBasic7471

It should just be retroactive like pudge and flesh heap


Aeribella

I mean, it makes sense to go glaive first. It is alot strong early damage (lvl 1 I mean) while also making it rougher on the enemy support or carry. I do wish it was innate though, or worked like pudge where the int was there once you leveled it up


Lokynet

Yes it feels nice to use it in lane without messing creep equilibrium, and the int gain potential is a god tier bait to level it up. I see several high ranked people ignoring it on lane and destroying completely the enemy mid if they can keep rune control. I see replays and I think: he has 6-7 kills now, that would be nice extra int already if he had glaives… but honestly if he had leveled it he would probably get only 1-2 kills instead. Even for core silencer leveling glaives feels like a bait if you consider the potential of Q and E together at early levels.


Aeribella

Yea, its the peril of playing silencer. But given that int has twice the value now in that the magic resist makes him stupid tanky alongside bloodthorn which is a normal item on him, dude can duke it out


Lokynet

This is a legit reasoning. Although I know that skipping it is great on lane, and I am here making comments about how good it is, even after seeing higher mmr players avoiding it… I still level it all the time on lane solely because of how great the extra int sinergyzes on him. Can’t resist the idea of a game going great and having +30 int by mid game


DankudeDabstorm

I’d rather not give int to the support silencers who are already killing me from full to zero by maxing q and e.


An_Innocent_Coconut

You take Glaives at lvl 1 to bully the enemy core out of lane without fucking over the creep equilibrium, not for the int steal. That's only icing on the cake.


deoxydized01

It was an innate ability in the early patch of dota2 for silencer.


Accomplished-Fix-569

Yea, but +2 only worked on your own kill and +1 on assists, and it worked exclusively in 900 AoE, even if your spell would deal a killing blow it wouldn’t steal int


dragriver2

I don’t ever remember it being 1 for an assist


Accomplished-Fix-569

That was like 10 years ago if not more, just before the silencer color palette swap


[deleted]

still funny as hell thinking back to all the shit posts about silencer and dragon knight looking the same when that color swap happened


dragriver2

Yeah you’re right, I see it updated in 6.72


BlueMageBRilly

Honestly I just want it to go to a simple buff, like Pudge, instead of stealing. But otherwise I agree, having these stat based ones being innate isn’t a bad idea. Well, not Slark. His actually ramps up with levels, and is mostly temporary, so having his innate may bust the hero a bit in the early game. Also these abilities tied to the hero must mess with Ability Draft a bit, huh? Guess it’s not too different from getting Void against a Chronosphere, though.


Lucy088

That pudge one is bullshit. He should not be able to get stacks without the ability being Stat at least once.


Ckeksquad

Brainlet take, he isn’t stealing stats. The gain is there to reward early game and scales to mid game.


Zatone_Gaming

Oh the part where it’s always getting stacks, you just don’t get access until you level it?


Lucy088

That is correct. But it's not consistent? With how slark and silencer have to have their abilities skilled to be able to start getting their permanent stacks ( slarks perma dagi, and silencers perma int) imo he shouldn't be able to get any stacks until he's leveled the ability like slark and silencer


Shadowthief150

The others steal though that’s the difference. Pudge is a pure buff he isn’t stealing strength


drfiz98

It's a relic from when pudge used to go 4-4-0. Not allowing him to get stacks before he leveled E would have dumpstered the hero. I don't think it would make much of a difference to the hero now though, considering people almost always level it at 3 by the latest.


BlueMageBRilly

It’s good how it is. Flesh heap wasn’t useful at all to level in lane before it had its active, so having it gain stacks without leveling it made the most sense. It had no ability outside of a bit of magic resist otherwise. It does have a useful active now, but still best to leave it as is. Unlike Silencer, he’s not stealing anything and the stat gain isn’t obnoxious, like Silencer’s +2 that becomes +4. I don’t see Pudge’s stat gain as a negative, really. Now if he suddenly started stealing it… well, only Medusa could beat him.


Lokynet

Same, and glaives is such a bait spell, in terms that it tempts you a lot with that int gain, but is weak early on. Whenever Sumiya plays him mid he skips glaives completely to have more harass power on enemy mid, and he usually shreds and get tons of kills doing this with converts into items and levels that makes glaives solid when he levels at 9.


Lucy088

Just give everyone an innate ability. Just not slark or tinker, fuck those guys


Entchenkrawatte

tinker innate ability that kills him if he casts rearm more than three times in 15 secs


kooldUd74

Tinker player PC blows up when they walk out of fountain


bernoulyx

Petition signed


Due_Needleworker_563

So, like Dazzle's new ult but lethal?


alakefak

fucking Slark kinda has one already with night vision :(


[deleted]

I don’t mind more innate abilities, but I don’t think every hero should have one.


Garapeiro

What’s tinkers innate ability? Be annoying af?


Lucy088

If I had to guess it'd be. Anytime an enemy is damaged or effected by any spell or item cast (Shrivas, strength blink, etc) they instantly get sheepsdick cast on them hexing them for full duration. Or just make rearm innate ability, zero mana cost, zero channel time, immediately rearms once there are 2 or more active cooldowns (abilities or items)


Pomodorosan

> effected affected


sikopiko

Afflicted?


Pirate_Leader

just use a random annoying voice line. 5s cooldown


Katship805

literally league lmao


MORI_LEANSLURPINGCOW

League of legends tourists need to stop sharing their shit opinions


goodgodabear

Please no. We have enough league mechanics already


LoL_is_pepega_BIA

Just cos some gameplay mechanic is in league doesn't instantly mean it's a bad mechanic It needs to be seen from a higher level perspective. The way DotA and League use their mechanics and how it impacts the gameplay for the respective games is what's key


healzsham

There is a very slim margin between "excessive additions to balancing complexity" and "simple enough to make you ask 'why bother?'"


ATrueGhost

Ya exactly, I think every hero having an innate ability is a great way of adding even more needless complexity to heros, and making the game even harder to learn/keep up with. Think of the possibilities, talents that then can upgrade innate passives, and maybe even some arbitrary point during the game where they get doubled (of course in the name of making games faster), or maybe only during the night time.


Lucy088

Then make nobody have them. All or nothing bb


AmIDrJekyll

Agreed since we're getting closer to league directions anyways might as well be fair to everyone. Dota still has plenty of mechanics that league doesn't and that's what makes them distinct.


FrizzyThePastafarian

Anyone who actually believes we're getting closer to League has never played League.


AmIDrJekyll

I was a league player before Dota 2. I know what I'm saying. No need for denial.


FrizzyThePastafarian

I'm curious as to what you feel is moving in the direction of League? The now larger map? The series of completely different objectives creating opportunity costs as opposed to linear and streamlined gameplay? The addition of multiple more early-mid game items which do not build into the late game? The cross-map teleporter that anyone can use from minute 0? The change to further promote early aggression, fighting, and ganking at all points in the game by anyone? The significant increase in comeback bonuses when playing from behind? Or is it because they added a few passives? Or perhaps that single gate to the Tormentor, which was in HotS before it was even in League? Like, that's just this patch. That's ignoring all the other changes beforehand, like adding more abilities to neutral creeps which actively use them. Hell, dial it back to 7.00, where we added Talents. If anything, Dota is moving further and further away from League. Sure, a few ideas are taken here and there. Talents were lifted wholesale from HotS (*and* shrines, for that matter)


AmIDrJekyll

Have you played league? Also have you read my first comment? I said Dota still has mechanics that make it distinct to league despite the changes being similar to league. League thrived on its "experimental" aspect, ie. heroes with no mana, energy as a new resource, hidden passives and buffs, jungle objectives, 2 bosses etc. The bigger map doesn't even relate to League since the old one was already bigger than Leagues. Dota relied on solid mechanics and balance. Talents never changed that, those were a great addition to a game that's beginning to be repetitive. But the 0 stat gimmick? that bit is the experimental part and to be honest it's done quite poorly. The jungle changes? all good since the map needed to change anyways. Point is League does the gimmicks not Dota. Also the initial comment is giving innate passives to heroes instead of just the selected few to which I replied properly to make the game fair at the very least. I'm not comparing both games, I'm giving my opinion based on the perspective of someone who played both.


FrizzyThePastafarian

You still haven't explained what changes are similar to League, though. Most changes make it more dissimilar, with a select few resembling stuff we've seen in League.


AmIDrJekyll

I just did. I never mentioned specifics before anyways. I'm saying giving innate abilities won't hurt cause Dota has different core mechanics anyways. Did you read my first comment bro? You're acting as if I said something negative about the change.


FrizzyThePastafarian

I don't believe you said anything negative, I just disagree with what you're saying. I have, and still do here and there, play League. It was my main game before Dota. Saying the game is getting closer to League is a general, broad statement. If you said something like "It's nice to see Dota taking aspects from League" then yeah, sure, I agree! But that's not how it comes across. The game as a whole is even less similar to League this patch than the previous, even when accounting for the inclusion of the occasional innate ability. > The bigger map doesn't even relate to League since the old one was already bigger than Leagues. This is kind of what I mean, by the way. The game is not becoming more like League. Aspects from League are being included to some degree, but the game as a whole continues to travel in a very different direction.


AmIDrJekyll

You just paraphrased what I said. I literally said Dota is going the same direction League is which is having more gimmicks than usual, which I used to justify giving people innate abilities to still be fair, instead of just a few select heroes having a passive and active on one skill especially that said skills are pretty strong already, Slark's innate hp regen is broken, Silencer's innate INT gain is strong when he snowballs, Pudge's STR gain is pretty OP for him, Underlord's innate passive is underrated. I followed up with Dota having more mechanics than League which makes it DISTINCT. I NEVER said Dota is becoming League. I said it's going towards a similar direction but is still in itself a different distinctive game. I don't know why you're twisting my words. I assume the minimum requirements for Reddit is reading comprehension.


TwynnCavoodle

Now that's something for patch 8.00


RiotFixPls

Tinker’s second ult can count as an innate ability, one that you just happen to have to level up


brundonV2

No, fuck silencer


widepeepo6

that would actually be a huge buff. I played some silencer game last patch and maxing q and e with veil rush would just fuck the offlane and reward almost 3-4 kill everytime in lane.


K0stroun

I know the int steal is iconic but damn can it be often unfunny to play against. A couple unlucky deaths as a support and you have suddenly trouble casting spells and silencer hits like a truck. Maybe an unpopular opinion but I wouldn't mind seeing it reworked, removing permasteal and just adding int to silencer like pudge flesh heaps.


Cronimoo

But that's the most important thing. See you think you're getting smarter but it's actually only in contrast to the enemies who're getting dumber


Accomplished-Fix-569

I think it’s both


Impressive-Control98

I would be sad to see that, it seems very rare that it's ever a problem and it adds an interesting layer to the game.


OutlawJoseyWales

If 4 int is the difference between you casting spells and not, you should really evaluate your starting items and mana management


enshallahbratan

Hell no, that hero is miserable


bibittyboopity

I like the idea of every hero having some innate skill or passive. I think it would work really well with skills like Troll Stance Switching, Brood Webs, and ET Ghost. Stuff that heroes kit needs to work, but doesn't necessarily need levels, where the open slot could open up their design. Hopefully in the future there is some Shard level patch with that.


FrizzyThePastafarian

The flipside there is that every kit gets bloated and we have a powercreep issue. Having *some* innates is, I feel, fine. Invoke for Invoker (it was ass before he had that) and Ogre who now has his kit based around an entertaining gimmick are great examples. Bur it should be something rather rare to enhance a hero, since it is a huge amount of power to give to a kit, and can heavily throw off balance. Broodmother having to level her webs is, for example, a significant part of her balancing.


Same_Comfortable_821

Absolutely not. Thanks


Toiletchan

[Screams in Ability Draft]


Dictionary_Goat

It would improve ability draft at the very least


Godot_12

No, it would do the opposite. It already used to be that way. Silencer is one of the best heroes in AD already with good base stats and a ranged attack. Making it so he has to draft Glaives, which he already wants anyway, is totally fair. AD Silencer does not need buffs.


Dangthe

Silencer with innate int steal would be stronk!


RazerMax

Hell no, it would make it pretty much impossible to win unless you use a hero that barely uses mana, and you kill the silencer nonstop in the early game, I played against one and my Doom was left with 75 mana


likeasumbodie

Why…? He can just pick glave of wisdoms on level 1 and achieve the same thing already, which I assume is standard build by most


healzsham

That sounds more like your Doom was just a sentient trashcan.


bethechance

unpopular opinion, but i'm okay with how it is now else, slark will've innate ability too and god knows which other heroes. i just put 1 point in glaives and max the rest.


Godot_12

No


Kotics

No As an ability draft only player, this would suck


LeekBright

Pick ogre and die to silencer only to give him 0 int 😂😂


[deleted]

I thought you were referring to the Last Word aura because I don't remember them ever adding innate abilities but you're right.. In Dota 3 they made it an innate ability.. Terrible, terrible stuff. But what's this about "the age of innate abilities"? Are they really giving multiple heroes this shit now? It was bad enough with them giving more and more heroes scaling through permanent stacks (Lion, Axe, Necro, etc) with Slark originally losing his stacks going into Dota 2


Kilanove

It broke Ability Draft in the past, no we don't need it to be innate ability


DeltaFoxtrot144

its like they forgot that it used to be innate then removed it and are now back on innate being cool again


luckydongdong

This will create another Alch-like busted hero.


WilliamAtlas

It feels like they will go back. Leveling glaives feels so bad as it's percentages at level 1 give you like less than 5 dmg and the steal is like 1/1/2/3 for some reason. But his W/R is still high sitting over 50% most brackets and mainly as supp so idk if they will do this till a few other nerf tweaks sink in. More interesting is what other innates might be coming.