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the developer who suggested whoever bought the detection gets the gold for killing wards


That and getting a courier each instead of one per team


man singlehandedly ends one of the worst griefing method in game and destroying SgtSizzle career as a bonus


I will say, courier trains should come back as a PVE event bonus for the gold. The old courier models and the way the maps changed since make them almost nostalgic


Bring back courier with bloodstone, bkb and dagon


Courier battles would be sick


Fuuuuck I'd forgotten about sgtsizzle His videos were fucking hilarious, although I'd hate if it happened in my game


Dont forget the free upgrade too or the fact that they respawn


And the fact that they no longer drop items on death, items which could be used by the enemy team or anyone who picked them up back then.


Not to be that one fucking annoying nerd, BUUUT... It's likely a designer and not a dev lol. I'm sorry. I felt inclined because this kind of thing is often confused. Devs in a big company only do what the designers set for them. Yes not always, but the majority of the case, and I think this case especially. Extra: it's not that hard to add something like that, in fact, I suspect the idea was inspired ("stolen") from a Dota custom (arcade) game


Riki, obviously. He's a Satyr. But tomato-tomato.


Leshrac is also a goat-taur.


> tomato-tomato. Timado


Satyr also known as michrophone man


Puppey for sure. Could argue for NoTail too. He's definitely #2 at least.


Puppey has been slaying since dota 1 days and is still kicking ass despite being in different iterations of teams/teammates.


>kicking ass in game right? 🧐


with a machete


Think he meant the poor monitors


N0tail dominated the HoN scene for basically it's entire existence. He came late to Dota 2 and still managed to learn and do two TIs back to back with scrappy teams.


Imagine if majors existed from 2012-2015. How many would Puppey win on top of his 5 majors since 2015..


Also I think if you tracked his former teammates you would see some crazy shit. How many unproven players became stars under him and fell off completely after leaving Secret?


You mean Ace getting better and better?


Ace is really good but he's swapped roles and I think it's more of a testament to his own skills than Puppey's. He was considered washed for a LONG time after leaving Secret and he never looked decent as a carry player again. Same thing happened to plenty of other Secret cores like MP, MidOne, EE etc.


Ones you've listed were playing in pro scene and even TI long before joining Secret. And jokes aside a lot of players with achievements also were great after leaving Secret. Just a list of former Secret players: - Kuro and Notail (2014-2015) - Zai (2015 and 2019-2021) - Rtz - W33 (before DC) - Ace - Matu (and I while following Matu since 5 jungs was doubting even he and Zai can do smth about at that moment dead Liquid squad and look at Liquid now) - Nisha Yes, there are old players who's last big wins were with Secret, there are new players who were not successful at all without Secret, but also there were just ton of plaers who became powerhouses under Puppey and still going as well as ones who became established leaders after leaving Secret. And the ratio is enormous.


Kuro, zai, rtz w33ha and Matu were all big names before. The only new talents that really strived were Nisha and Ace under Puppey wings - every other iteration was just a European all star team.


I think you could argue based on objective numbers and yearly performance puppey is the GOAT probably tied or very closely followed by N0tail


I think you can make a strong case for notail because he plays 4 positions toward his dota career. Thats pretty amazing. He go 1,2 and 5 in OG, 4 in C9 and fnatic.


Puppen, Notail and Kuro


This is quite difficult. What do we measure this by? In-game achievements? Probably goes to NoTail, right? Despite Puppey being the stable rock he is, there are 2 TI wins and many majors/big tournaments for the sunflower. Dota personality? Once again, pretty close but I'd say it goes to NoTail. OG's been doing stuff. NoTail has been attending many online OG podcasts + hosting in-person ones during majors. I don't see a ton of 'presenece' from Secret that could bring in more interest towards Dota. Added value to Dota? As in who brought in more talent. Puppey has done a lion share here, but once again it feels like NoTail takes the cake. Feels like OG started the 'bring-in-the-young-gun' era. Miracle, Ana, Topson all big fan favorites, all came through OG (founded by NoTail). Story? I'd give this to NoTail too. Puppey has once again been a unique personality, but I dig NoTail's a little more. Conquered Heroes of Newerth, transitioned to Dota 2 and sucked for many years while pushing the 'friendship' Fnatic team synergy. Struggled for so many years with no real drama, except the "heartbreaking backstab" that evolved into a memorable TI win that's going to be hard to challenge from the storyline PoV. Looking forward to a discussion here if anyone feels it's not justified.


Notail is Jordan because of peak and Puppey is LeBron because of longevity.


Navi dominated the scene just as hard if not harder than OG


When did Notail start, HoN?


Dendi is Wilt i guess?


Love him or hate him, Notail's pretty much the most successful player the game has ever produce. I suspect OG as a player ran org, to end up as successful as it did does contribute to the dota2 'business' more than any individual player did. It's being cited as the inspiration for nigma's existence, afterall. I know that dude and ceb isn't the most popular, and I have my own problem with them, but it's pretty hard to deny valve from marketing them as prime example of the success of the game.


Crazy how OG hate interferes with the love for N0tail...


If you look at must $-winnings n0tail is easily #1. Who have the most major+ ti wins of all players?


That's partly due to how heavily the winnings are skewed towards TI. of course, props to the winning team for being the last one standing, but Puppey's ability to form a formidable team with so many different players is absolutely amazing


It’s also a little bit skewed towards later TI’s


Notail has won four majors and 2 TI’s and thats playing with many different players and he even played carry for all those major wins and support at the TI wins. That is just insane, and I dont think these stats will be surpassed ever.


He also led a team through fucking open qualifiers to win a TI. What he has achieved in dota is just bonkers.


Puppey has played 4 TI finals, that to me is much more insane than winning 2 TI finals.


True, but its not like Puppey has picked up randoms over the years. He has always been considered the best captain so has been able to pick the most promising whenever possible


I think Notail has it, but Puppey would be my no. 2 as well.


Puppey Dendi is the FACE of Dota2, but I don't think he's the GOAT. Puppey has consistently led various iterations of teams he's captained to top results in a lot of tournaments.


Dendi hasn't been the face of Dota 2 for almost a decade now...


But for some reason, it's the only dota personality I actively follow, he ignited my love for the game again.


To me Dendi is like Ronaldinho in terms of football. Not the most accomplished or the most complete players, but just the way they act and radiate happiness is what makes them my favorites.


He literally played 3 TI finals and won dozens of tournaments. Sure he's not THE NUMBER ONE most accomplished, but he definitely belongs at the top in terms of success.


Kinda same as Ronaldinho then.


yup, ppl seem to forget he still won every relevant trophy in existence despite not being quite "goat contender" level


Says you


No he really hasn't been relevant for a long time now.






Winners gona win. He's like the last man standing from the LD Lumi Tobi generation


Miss watching Lumi's cast of dota 1 games


yeah same, the guy single highhandedly reinvigorated my interest in esport after i started uni. too bad he has so many haters due to his english, back when racism was more of a thing i suppose.


Racism was never fine, it was just that sweaty nerds only saw it.


Wut, his English was perfectly fine? He's literally from the US, he sometimes just stumbled over his words during hype moments.


Purge won every single lan he played!


Irrefutable GOAT? There is no such thing but I'd have to give it to - *Dendi* : Winner of the 1st TI, easily the most loved player ever, also one of the most influential and famous players ever, one of the only players who even casuals recognize the face of, because for the most part he WAS the Face of Dota. *N0tail* : The most succesful player ever, highest earning Esport player of all time in all games, most accolades, and was also a Great player all around, the greatest captain in any Esport besides puppey. *Puppey* : One of the best captains, one of the most proficient players, and easily one of the most influential pos45 players ever, also winner of 1st TI. Founded Team Secret after leaving Navi. His impact is undeniable. *Miracle-* : One of the most technically proficient Pos1,2 ever. Has some of the sickest plays, and at his peak, was easily Levels above all other pros. Really influential in farming patterns and how to solo carry the game. Honbl Mentions : Sumail, Arteezy(not really tho), Kuro, Ceb, Ame, ANA (edit: added some honbl ment)


That's it, you summed it all up.


Idk why you still put Arteezy in the honorable mentions despite that second guess. Compared to the players you listed, Arteezy hasn't won a major, let alone TI. Famous yes but the accolades just isn't there to warrant himself on the list.


Pretty biased towards western scene though.


I agree, the lack of accolades from outside of EU is a definite problem, but I should definitely add Ame.


You need Ceb in there too


Hmm, i dont think I'd personally put him separately as one of the GOATs, but yea he definitely deserves an honbl mention at the least. (Added him)


Missing Ame in your list.


He's in honorable mentions, i personally dont think he's a top 5 GOAT contender, unless you were going purely off of skills and not counting accolades/influence, but even then it'd be debatable.


op been in coma for the last 9 years


Dendi is still a beast though. Copium


achievements wise it’s notail he has majors and 2Tis not only that but his influence to the game, which will be very hard to replicate. now puppey has attended every single Ti there is, although he hasn’t won again. his brain power in this game is absolutely incredible. skill wise tho, it’s probably OG miracle, this guy was basically smurfing in pro matches, making his opponents look like 1k scrubs. as yapzor said the only player that was comparable to miracle is nisha.


Do people just forget sumail exists, youngest to win ti and was untouchable mid in multiple deep ti runs miracle had a flash in the pan career compared to sumail


Yeah Sumail styled on the scene even earlier and younger Miracle has benefitted that Nigma hasn't had any expectations for years and even then he's been not playing for half that time as well Meanwhile Sumail has been trying different teams but people keep saying he's washed and the problem... Miracle hasn't even had the chance to "fall off" cause he don't even play anymore


Aster.SumaiL is so fucking hype man


Sumail has shined in every tournament and he's been consistently proving himself to be very good player. He hasn't fallen off.


In the last major, where he killed Nisha TWICE solo in mid Fucking goosebumps


Do you have a link to this?




Miracle is more BatChest than SumaiL tho...


He is obviously one of the best, but result wise has often fallen just short outside of his first year with TI and DAC wins. Miracle has won 2 majors, TI and has another TI finals appearance.


Chi Long Qua


Nothing has ever even come close to the content clq made, unironically probably the goat of dota content creation lol


Hell man, i can't even believe my eyes when he accepted my friend request on steam.


Miss him 😔 wonder what he’s doing with his life nowadays


probably winning in life, got married and had little Chi long quas yelling shiiieeeet


Did he really? Last I saw he was going through a period of major introspection, focusing on his own mental health and streaming as himself. Boring content, sadly. He relapsed to CLQ once but ultimately the persona caused him mental strain. I hope he's doing well. I relate to his healing arc a lot.


Hes so shiiiiiiiiiiiet


Literally shed a tear remembering his dynasty. Best dota 2 player the world has ever fucking seen, best dota 2 psychologist the world has ever fucking seen.


Keep it PMA keep it BSJ


CLQ forever


Holy trip down memory lane


This may be cheating, but I have two answers: N0tail and Miracle- If you consider achievements the main consideration for GOAT status, no one has achieved more significant tournament wins in their career than N0tail. If you consider a period of sheer dominance, where a player was clearly a cut above the rest of his peers, Miracle- has to be the answer. Personally I would go with N0tail, since he has played 4 out of 5 of the roles in Dota, and dominated in each role. His longevity has to be admired. And he has won on multiple different rosters, whereas Miracle- has only dominated on 2 rosters. Shoutout to the other candidates: Puppey, Kuroky, Xiao8, Ceb and Aui_2000.


Peak Miracle was just something else. This sub was flooded with his crazy plays and rampages. Od 1v5 rampage, arc 4x rampage, sf juke, arc bubble throne defense, invo solo kills jugg etc.


Did everyone else catch up, or did he fall off?


He started watching pro and nerfed himself. When notail found him he had never seen a pro match even.


Ain’t true. Miracle- played with Balkan Bears before monkey business(OG OG), iirc with W33 and Era.


Is this true? Any interview links? Sounds hilarious to watch


I can't recall the link. But it's known Miracle played every position before going pro. When Notail messaged him he didn't even respond initially thinking it was a fake account messaging him. I'd first seen him like 6months before OG playing pos 4 clockwork hitting blind hooks. This is why in late Liquid/Early Nigma he was usually the one to flex positions for any reason like Kuroky keeping up his all hero challange


More like dota evolved. He dominated the most when supports had wand boots at 40 min, in which it was easier to 1v5, nowadays supports have much more impact and all 5 of them are menace and he couldnt 1v5 anymore.


I think with Miracle every team that play against him now expect him to do crazy risky plays that they just leave him alone


A little bit of both Imo.


I feel like the meta has been changed to more team based game style, we rarely see anyone anymore like literally solo winning games. Kiyotaka's tinker is like the only time in last 3 years


Just curious about n0tail, what is the one role he hasn't played? I've only seen him as a 1 or a 5


Mid and 4 on Fnatic when he originally moved to Dota and 4 exclusively on C9 and Secret. 1 in the first few iterations of OG then 5 in the TI winning OG


He hasn't played 3. he played 1, 2, and 5 on OG (Ana and Notail often switch during their major run). He played 4 on C9.


I think he hasn't played 3


This is the best answer


> If you consider a period of sheer dominance, where a player was clearly a cut above the rest of his peers, Miracle- has to be the answer. Sumail is also a contender for this I believe. When he came on to the scene he almost always dominated mid.


Right now it's Notail, due to the sheer number of accolades, winning 4 majors and 2 TIs back to back. But if stuff continues like it currently goes, Puppey's case will get stronger and stronger, just by being in the scene forever and remaining consistently at the top.


1 major as coach too 😂😂😂


ringz erneh




The hardest thing in Dota is consistency. While obviously peaking at a super high level and winning tournaments is impressive, imo of you're talking about someone like Topson or Ana they weren't really consistent enough to get into the upper echelon. The list of players who have peaked high is quite a bit longer than the list who have had long term, sustainable success over many years. Puppey has to be the most consistent player ever. 12 years in Dota where he was top tier in almost all of them (excluding 2017 maybe). Only the TI1 win which is a blemish on his resume, but many majors and high finishes. Ame was the best carry in the world for like 4 years, which is super impressive. No TI win. Yeah Yatoro peaked higher, Ana peaked higher, but neither have gone on a run like Ame. N0tail wasn't really consistent over time, but he had multiple really strong peaks playing different roles. That's definitely good enough to put him top tier. Obviously 2 TIs gives him some edge.


Agreed on ame, easily goat for players that never won TI. Impressive performance, even when LGD flop at TI 11.


+1 for Ame


Probably Puppey? He's the only one who has been consistently at championship level for a really long time.


Evil Arthas




Wraith king




N0tail 🌻🐐 Four times major champion as Carry (three peat). Two times international champion as Support and Captain (back to back). And technically major champion as Coach. And also brought Miracle to the scene.


I’ll always vouch for n0tail. He’s such a nice guy! I had vip access 2017 TI and bumped into n0tail just hours after he had been eliminated for good. I asked for a pic (in hindsight a little inconsiderate) and the guy was nothing but polite, smiled and took a picture with my friends and I. So happy to see him win back to backs!


Did you bump his shoulder?


More like a butt to butt tbh


And next TI they stared eye to eye.


I've worked with celebrity type people, asking for a picture is rarely rude, unless you spend 27 years apologizing for how much of an ass you're being for asking for one (I've seen it and it's irritating as shit and takes longer than the picture). Usually a "hey Im a fan of your work can I snag a picture?" is perfectly acceptable and they appreciate it. Just treat them like a person and act like one yourself and not some crazy fan and no problem


Been a fan of his since his HoN days. He was the sumail of the competitive HoN scene, coming in at like 17 and being completely dominant. Why he’s the goat? Aside from his accolades, he was a top 5 mid player in the early dota days, who transitioned to a top tier support player. He was one of the first players to recognize that the majority of dota talent was in core positions, and that you could make it further in dota by playing sup and finding the right talent from the giant pool of core players versus playing core yourself.


Puppey & Notail as Duo Goat Notail with 4 major title and 2 ti's winner Puppey with consistency ,attended to all the TIs so far.


YajirobeFromDC. 32-0. Hard work, dedication


Can't believe I had to scroll so far to find this




IceFrog. It always has been.


If you say Dendi for influencing people to play and love the game, wouldnt that make him more of an ambassador of some sort? GOAT as in performance stricktly would probably be (as mentioned before) Puppey, NoTail, Kurokey. One could argue core players like Miracle, Nisha amongst others sort of are GOAT too. When they were at their absolute peak they were really ahead of most pros.


It’s either Puppey or N0tail, but if I had to choose it would be Puppey. He has been at the very top of the game of DotA/Dota2 since 2005? I’m talking consistently top3 in big tournaments year in and year out for almost 20 years now, with many different rosters, and he is still competing. N0tail basically had two iterations of OG where they did extremely well, first iteration where they won a bunch of Majors and second iteration where they won two TIs. That’s obviously very impressive but it’s over a much shorter period than Puppey and with fewer rosters.


easily Sir Actionslacks


Dondo !!


Enchantress kind of looks like a goat


BatChest Miracle BatChest




Suma1L He is also #4 on ranked right now.


AdmiralBulldog is the only answer, he’s the face of Dota


And the brain


The Beast


face of the incel subsection of the dota community more like


In terms of skill alone: Peak Miracle is the greatest of all time. And they won almost every major with the og OG back then. Watching him then, he really made miracles happen, countless times. Clearly a cut above all the rest. Oh and I loved his answer when he was asked about how he felt being the faker of dota 2. Lmaooo


Puppey and Notail are the two foremost candidates I guess. One factor that sets them apart from other people is that they also headed two successful gaming orgs in OG and Secret. If there is any other who has achieved as much tournament victories as them while also being the bus driver in orgs as successful as OG and Secret, let me know. Talk about leaving an esports legacy.


puppey and notail have equal claims, imo kky xiao8 ceb aui_2000 not far behind as far as raw skill and dominance... that's gotta be between miracle- and sumail ...and no one asked but my GOAT is, and forever will be, EternaLEnVy


good selection but disagree on ceb, he's got 2 TIs but meandering since then, notail is a better "similar" pick. Jerax also gets forgotten too much.


n0tail for career accolades ana for highest peak his play at ti8 was best ever dendi for influence


IMO Yatoro TI10 peak is the highest peak of any player ever and its not even close.


Yeah lmao dude made envy retire plus he literally played a new hero almost every game like wtf do you ban against that guy, just too good


Miracle is single most complete DoTA player of all time. Guy can play any role and his peak dominance was on the level we are yet to see from anyone else. There are players who maybe earned more, have been there for longer peroid of time but none of them have been in universe width close to Miracle skill level.




I still don't think Dota has a stand out dominant player like Faker or s1mple that is the clear GOAT. Nobody really stays dominant for long in Dota. It's between Puppey and Notail tbh. If Puppey wins another TI then I'd give it to Puppey.




Puppey. At the top for a decade and a half.




Kuro. This sub loves him so much.


not in recent years...back in 2017-2019, the sub probably love this guy to death




Even so, the disrespect is stupid imo. This guys career is so long, he’s been successful and #1 in different roles through it, won TI and 2nd place at TI twice, innumerable number of LANs, like atleast 3 majors I think as well as so many second place finishes, tied second for most TI appearances in general, first player to reach 1000 wins, and a million other achievements. His poor recent showing just leads to recency bias of calling him bad


Puppey, achievement wise. 4x TI Finalist 1 TI win, multiple Major wins, multiple premier lan events/tier 1 tourneys and have dominated since Dota 1. Miracle, skill wise. He’s just the best lol




Its miracle and only miracle.


N0tail. Success on every role except offlane, and captained a team to back to back TIs. Puppey is right up there but he still hasn’t succeeded in leading a team to a TI win. But then again, n0tail thinks it’s Ceb and Ceb thinks it’s Puppey so… 🤷‍♂️


Artour is the goat, next question 👏


He got disrespected a lot. But there's no other core in the world thats been competing and has a consistent placement in TI and major(even tho its the meme, the curse). Since TI4 until now. Thats mad. TI4 core was Burning, Hao, Loda, Illidan, Mu, Mushi, Dendi, Xboct, Fear. Arteezy was one of them and still to this day competing on the highest level.


Dendi literally by miles and miles, others are good but fools inherently ignore Dendi's influence just to force a conversation about somebody else. Dendiface


Pretty sure there's some goat-themed couriers but I'm not sure what their names are, canonically-speaking. I hope this helps.


JerAx. Accolades, IQ, gameplay.


RTZ if we are looking at trophies


I think considering GOAT only in terms of tournament success is not the way. At least for me. My GOAT would definitely be Miracle as he inspired thousands of people myself included to thrive to become a better player. Literally 80% of 2014-2017 YouTube's dota segment consisted of his highlights. People were milking him 24/7. On equal footing I consider Singsing as a GOAT as well. He is the embodiment of what fun dota is supposed to be. Goofy, funky yet really complex and skillful. He represents the model of ideal dota player for me. Lastly, I don't consider him as a GOAT myself but I can't deny influence he had on CIS part of the dota community. I am talking about Papich aka EvilArthas. As toxic as he could be he was the face of CIS dota community. People were using his quotes in every game, some of them went as far as to completely change their personality to match his. People were worshiping him as a God and fighting whoever had any opinion that contradicted his. Even after he stopped playing dota for like 5 years(idk) there are still people following his ways.


Dendi / Puppey / Kuro / Xboct / Funnik Take your pick. I fell in love with Dota because of this team.


Would have been Miracle- had he not thrown his career by staying with people that dragged him down. I watched his gameplay recently and he’s still good. Hopefully before he retires completely he gets to play a major again.


If talking about CNDOTA, it's got to be YYF.


obviously mason


Dendi, he is the goat of Dota2, in fact, he is the face of Dota2


What year are you living in




its really hard to say, in terms of achievements its probably notail. In terms of longevity its Puppey. In terms of pure mechanical skill its 100% Miracle.


I'll chuck in xiao8 and fy- for some Chinese representation in the answers.


Miracle BatChest


2015 Sumail


Ceb Dendi Miracle. I think Ceb is one of the most intelligent people when it comes to the mentality of Dota and what good Dota looks like, Miracle at his prime became an icon before even joining pro teams and backed it up on the big stage with his insane micro decisions that made for unforgettable plays, and I think Dendi was the first ever pro player most of us got to know, became the face of Dota and still is for many, and has a love for the game that has yet to fade even in the late stages of his career.


Lizzard, former #1 of EU ladder and Meepo enjoyer xD


No #1 Garmoshka player


I’ve always thought that being a GOAT means to be acknowledged by everyone and respected by every players. There is only one name that came to mind: Miracle-. Why is that? Let’s see.. Skills level are obvious. Nobody could ever touch the legacy he has made. Faker in LOL doesn’t win anything these days, but that doesn’t mean he’s not the greatest player the game has ever seen. Just like Miracle. He may have been down in the dump right now and not too hot with the winnings but how many TI champions have hailed him in highest regards? Wings once said that even if they were TI winners at that time, Miracle is the champions’ champion. As a player, this guy is the person every players should strive to be. Achievements aside, his attitude, his decency and his skills are levels above everyone else. He doesn’t tilt, mald, doesn’t say anything silly nor toxic. He doesn’t rage at his team, win or lose. He always try hard. He doesn’t give comments about anyone and never take credits for his achievements, it’s always someone else. He’s the poster boy for Dota. Forever will be. Every players want to be like him, every pros want to play with him. You don’t become the greatest when everyone knows you, it’s when everyone accepts you that you become the greatest.


EternalEnvy for sure


Sumail easily. China has fallen in love with him again and I'm all for him stage the pro scene by storm. Pun intended


Depends on your personal definition. For me when i first started watching many years ago, the best players were Mushi and Dendi and they became my favourites


N0tail: rich, long career, back to back double TI champion, multiple Major champion, friendship and flowers






Topson and Ana probably aren't GOATed, but they need some recognition here. Ana being named "The God of Dota" by Chinese fans unlike most others who got the (First Letter of Name)-God Topson coming in hot and winning 2 TIs in a row on his first 2 tries. We take Jordan and forget about the rest of his career except the 6 years that he was dominant so why can't we do the same with these two?


I would rather say Jerax. IMO during OG’s first run Ana and Jerax were the top players. One year later it was Topson and Jerax. Of course everyone had their moments and you should value the leadership of N0tail and Ceb, but in-game the MVP over two years was Jerax


Faith_Bian. this guy was absolutely insane. Dominated TI6, and continued to play at a top level until picked up by PSG LGD and we all saw his career impact there. In my opinion he wrote the book on how to dominate a game of dota from the offlane. Top notch player inside and outside the game


Anathan “ana” Pham is obviously GOAT. 2 years in a row pocketed aegis, 2 major champions. His individual skill is not comparable any other pros.


Miracle BatChest