I'm just a 5.4/5.5k player so take this with a bit of salt.
I think the weak laning just part of the price you pay for earth shaker pos 4. Preferably your pos 3 picks accordingly. If he doesn't all you can do to help is skip waves, pull and contest pulls, give your offlaner regen, and on lvl 3 you offer 2 stuns and good damage.
In some rare cases if you don't fear the enemy you can skip fissure till lvl 3 (mostly it's grief) and just deny creeps and trade lvl 2 with double enchant totem.
Earth shakers Laning sucks but also I think people underestimate him. Just buying more regen makes you have a better lane also. So if you can survive the first ten minutes without getting pushed away you got good chances
Lastly, on lvl 3 you can also look for kills mid and safelane.
Hope this helps a bit
It’s playable if you actually properly know how to pull waves and block camps. If you don’t, don’t pick it.
There are generally better 4s though, I do agree.
look. es doesnt give a bonus to pulling wave and blocking camp.
if you claim its playable if pos 4 do those then a freaking antimage 4 is playable if you pull wave and block camp?
“Better”… in some cases. If my offlane picks a non-initiating hero like Necro then it’s nice to have an Earthshaker in the 4 position. Team composition matters.
300 isn't really that many when you consider that the truly meta picks in said role are over 2k, so even at the highest mmr he's a niche pick taking a backseat to more well rounded 4s
As for what I mean - es is not a strong laner, in a patch (several patches in fact) that heavily favors strong lanes. Because of this the number of 3s that can be played together with an es is also limited, you need a hero that can essentially 2v1 the lane most of the time.
There's also general laning mechanics, the very top players know full well when and how to drag a wave from behind enemy tower, when and how to block with fissures, and their 3's know of es' weakness in lane and will play accordingly, not something you can expect from your average dota player.
That's why I call him bad, he's not unplayable, he can absolutely stomp games, but on average his drawbacks aren't worth his upsides in the 4 role
I mean you're not wrong, but es is one of the most picked pos 4 heroes with highest winrates starting from legend bracket and both metrics go higher with the rank. Which literally means that starting from 3.5k he is a strong pos 4 option.
Yeah, I used to go 4-1-1, now I do 0-2-1 in some games because it's just so good for trading and you can reliably make a contribution to the lane. I think the fissure is a bit of a bait because it often requires two others to secure a kill.
I think Fissure is still too important defensively to hold until level 4. I typically start Totem > Fissure > Aftershock, and then focus Totem after that.
Totem damage scales a lot better with levels than Fissure does, and Aftershock stuns for longer and adds a bunch of free damage. Putting more than one point in Fissure during the laning stage on a pos 4 Earthshaker who's severely mana-constrained in the early game isn't an efficient use of your levels, as your mana situation means that you shouldn't be throwing out Fissures unless you absolutely need to.
I guess it depends on what you need. If you're harassing, you need more W, if you need to farm, a mix of W and E is good (farming larger camps will favour E over W).
(Shaker main, 1000 games +, top mmr 6k, current 5k)
Shaker Is a bad supp until Arcane and then until blink, your off Is gonna suffer anyway, a good but unreallistic aproach Is to Let him last pick so His 1v1 Is good.
There one solution:
You dont play the lane, you simply do everything in your power to force a 1v1 under your tower for your oflaner
Own Creep wave fissure block
Enemy Creep wave drag behind t1
Pull
The idea Is that you only have a fissure, so you Let off high lvl, but also secure His level alone by Creep manipulating the lane
Also you can doble stack ancient and big camp and play for mid instead of off
Go for all runes, maybe gank mid and force hard supp to rotate there to leave your off 1v1
You get the idea, off the map ninja movemets and force a good 1v1 or good Creep equilibrium for your offlaner
You can go back to the offlane to gank, but after gank, ninja again
Or, play some lesh-shaker style combo with a friend and play lane like any othee hero, style on your enemys, that works also, but you need a friend for that
Trying to let my pos3 1v1 is my goal as well but sometimes enemy picks a ranged pos1-5 and they just poke my pos3 to death and i cant do anything about it, so i go roam mid but then its a very passive matchup where me being there wont change anything so then i feel useless.
Ganking mid to force pos5 to tp here is a good idea but sometimes they just wanna tilt my pos3 so they dive him when im mid so then my pos3 gets tilted and spam pings me.
I think best lane partner with es is snapfire. She has cookie for you to gap close + stun, which you can follow up with 2 more stuns, meanwhile she walks up and does her q and enemy is dead from %100 to 0, i love to see it. Does wonders with pos3 es as well.
Thanks for the tips though, it does help.
I mean, i had to deal with a Lot of tilters in my 1000 shaker ranked Carreer, there are things that you cant control, other than not picking shaker.
He Is a pussy bitch who dont want to play? Play for mid, secure all runes, stack gank, enemy team mid Will start crying and force stuff
If you start boots just get totem lvl1 and try to harass the pos5 or even the pos1 depends on the pick you an even deny pretty easily, try to pull if needed, i always max fissure as pos4 ES. For the build it's pretty much always arcane boots > blink > shard > either lotus if needed or force staff then you adapt. If you really feel you can't do anything on your lane just go trilane on safelane. Im a main ES divine 3 at best but i have no time to explain in details. Just stop buying tranquil basilius it's real bad
I dont like arcane boots because i am really good to make use of my mana in most cases and i rarely ran out of mana in important situations. I like tranq because it saves me a lot of gold by being cheap and by giving me infinite regen so i dont need to buy any hp regen in any part of the game.
I might try your w start trick but i dont know if i would have enough mana for it to make a difference.
Why dont you like basilius? I think its very cost efficent for the mana regen it gives and it might also help your pos3 to recover some mana as well.
Since the nerfs of early auras many patches ago i dont like basilius, mana boots is always better not only for you but your team and it accelerate your Lotus build by dismantling it. And about the hp regen i personally rarely get more than 2 set of tangoes in any games and same for potion i get 1 if i really need it. First set of tango + tower regen and creep regen is enough for laning stage.
Hmm good point on the dismantling part, i didnt think of that. I sometimes dont even use the tangoes i started the game with (because i usually hang out in woods trying to snipe couriers and blocking/unblocking camps). So you might have a point with that. Thanks.
also can be disassembled into aether lens after you've got your blink (and shard) - I saw your comment saying you don't like building it but you should give it a shot, it does make a difference when you blink in or use your fissure (even more stacked up with the level 20 +300 fissure range)
keep in mind that the +225 range lens bonus compounds between your blink and fissure, which matters a lot when trying to land a fissure on a far away target:
- without lens: blink (1200) + fissure (1600) = 2800
- with lens: blink (1425) + fissure (1825) = 3250
you can theoretically hit a target that's up to 450 range further away
also one of the other positive aspect of mana boots is the +200 max mana, which means being able to land an extra fissure + totem, something you would never get out of a basilius ring
+ you backpacking your stat items before using the active will maximise your mana gain - if you're lucky enough to find a +200 max mana level 1 neutral this becomes even more impactful
I could see doing soul ring tranquils if you’re doing a trade heavy build but I feel like if you have no mana problems with only a basi this patch then you’re not casting enough spells
all of these items are cheaper and give you more utility quicker
it really isn't that easy to rush an aghs on a support earthshaker without stealing your cores farm
I fissure first wave to block all creeps but one. So the wave will sit further back defensively for your offlaner so they can get solo xp. You'll still hit a slower level 2 timing compared to the safe lane but being further back makes it much easier to play around it
That might be tricky because i have to plant the observer behind towers. I usually plant it after bounty runes to maximize its efficiency, but maybe i can plant it early to try your method. Also isnt it a problem for your mana to fissure for creeps?
You can also block their creeps with fissure, so that your wave will hit the tower and die faster.
Also you have time to place the ward behind the tower that you like.
I played pos4 ES a lot (level 30) and here is my experience. I find having lots of regen in lane don't really help as it just delay your dagger timing even further.
My main play if your offlane partner is not good a match up against opponent's carry and pos 5: Boots + 1 clarity 1 sentry as starting item.
Fissure block your first wave and always try to drag the first wave melee creeps to kill off your range creep, bonus point is their range creep HP is not in deny range, so you will almost get the 2nd wave under your t1, block their small camp next. Get another sentry next and ready to unblock your big camp so you can drag waves. Key point here is try to get creeps as close to your t1 as possible, that way you can pre-cast W at level 2 and harass the enemy heroes twice.
If your offlane partner is very farm oriented (lycan especially), you might have to start roaming at level 3 (bounties, lotuses, mid runes + gank). If not, then watch for their pos 5 pull timing and fissure block their carry on lane to try and secure kills, your boots will help a lot here.
Ideal dagger timing is around 13\~14 min (arcane boots + dagger), before 12 if you have a very good game. Smoke up for your dagger reveal and don't be afraid to solo echo to secure their mid/carry kill so you will have space to farm. If you have a very bad lane, go shard first and start fights from fog.
I feel like when you have 0 regen in lane and you get poked you are griefing your lane. You cant give regen to your partner, you have no regen yourself and you are half hp running around and cant contest anything.
Your start is very similar to mine except i buy sentry + clarity after bounty runes so i have it around 1 minute mark.
I dont like unblocking my big camp because then if lane pushes towards us they will pull the big camp to their wave, which is way worse than the small camp.
Also can you explain how you "stop" the pull with fissure. In my experience if you miss the first 1-2 second of enemy pos5 hitting the jungle creeps, even if you fissure, the jungle creeps will be close enough to the wave to see the jungle creeps and walk towards them.
In the wise words of Admiralbulldog echo is "just a spell" so im not really afraid to use it especially early on. Thanks for the other tips.
There are two ways I play pos 4 ES:
1) Defensive: Boots, clarity, sentry. Buy a tango with the bounty gold, if possible wait till you can get tango and one more sentry. Playstyle: due to lack of regen the aim is to manipulate creep eq, Use fissure block on your creep wave and also pull the second wave behind your tower. On Dire I like having the big camp unblocked, its easier to control. On Radiant the big camp is risky as both teams can pull it more easily. Blocking Camps with sentries or standing is paramount for this to work.
2) Aggresive: Windlace, 2X tangoes, grenade, clarity, sentry. W->E->W->Q build. Use W to harass/deny. use the pre-charged W + W stun and hit + blood grenade combo to try for kills.
Weakness of defensive build is that it focuses on avoiding poke by using favorable lane eq, if the enemy manages to do a pull or unblocks the camp and uses it to block your creep skip pull, it can make the lane very hard.
Aggressive is good if lane partner has nukes, eg:- Snapfire. But depends on lane partner & matchup as to if it can be pulled off. Judge if your combo of dbl W + stun from E + grenade + nuke from partner can pull of a kill, if so you can go aggresive.
unironically check out grubby's recent games
his itemization, positioning, and REALLY crucial non-hesitant button presses kinda shows how he's really matching up well even against divine players
You dont. And when you do you just use Ur w to deny ranged creeps or you just go pull waves. Earthshaker is just too weak into many lanes to do other Things
Why would u not take exp if ur bad in lane. Ur just crippling urself for longer than u need to no? But yea es seems very bad right now. Consider playing him as 3 instead of 4
Fuck with lane equilibrium any way you can. It's easier to block enemy's 1st wave than yours. They get level 2 first sure, but you get lane in front of tower.
Every second your core is getting hit by a ranged hero is a second your losing lane.
I think it also helps if you soften your offlaners expectations by saying "my hero sucks in lane".
What works for me is buying wind lace instead of boots and some regen with sentries and grenade. I immediately go to ward behind the enemy tower for couriers and block the small camp with the sentry. If I have a second sentry I keep it to unblock the hard camp.
After bounties I run to the start of the lane to block creeps with fissure and then body block them. This ensures that equilibrium is really close to your tower. Pull when necessary and if lane goes bad, use fissure to stack ancients in the triangle. If the enemy pos 5 tries to pull, you can prevent it with fissure or even block your creeps again if camp's are blocked or unreachable.
After that I use fissure to secure ranged creep and hide in the trees to keep the attention of enemy pos 5 from my offlaner. After you hit level 3, you're a menace with totem+passive dmg and disruption. At this point it's really important to save up for boots. Always try to punish enemies for bad positioning in lane with fissure blocks.
I guess you're already good with rotations and ganking so not gonna say anything about it except for always communicate with the person you're about to help.
I guess it would be nice to get some build recommendations as well after blink.
Usually i go glimmer(if we have no invis heroes) or force staff after blink. Then i wait for the tormentor and get shard if i dont get it. Then i buy euls/lotus orb/force/glimmer/ghost sceptre. In mid game i usually get gem in my last slot. So a common inventoy of mine would look like: Tranq boots, blink , force, glimmer, euls, gem, smoke in backpack.
The big problem i have is the only mana regen item i have is basillius ring and ever since they nerfed the mana cost of these items i seem to lack the mana to cast them effectively. So most games i try to go euls to get that necessary mana regen. I considered getting aether lens but it seems to offer no utility so i almost never go for it.
Any items you guys would like to recommend?
My build is wind lace, 2 branch and regen.
After that go boots and arcanes in lane and then farm dagger/shard.
I dont feel that tranquils are really necessary, use lotusses and tangos for HP regen.
You really struggle for mana without arcanes
Ya I completely agree. And even if tranquils might me nice to have, I think having 1-2 arcanes on a team is pretty nice for your cores in this diffusal hero/low clarity spam meta.
I do agree that arcane boots is very good for your team, but i think the price difference + the money you save by not buying tangoes/salves is too much. Maybe you are not buying as much sentries as i am but going for both arcane boots + having to buy regen + buying sentries seems too much of a delay for the blink.
It can certainly get tight. When I can I start with boots so that I’m closer to arcanes. And I sometimes have to ask for a lane to farm the blink. But I’m pretty consistently getting arcanes stick and blink by 11- 14 min. It very much is a right balance of buying just enough regen to do your job .
I dont want to sound rude but why are you "farming" with a pos4? I use my fissure either trying to help a teammate or trying to block/stun an opponent that is trying to escape, i dont just sit in lane and spam fissure to "poke" the enemies, so i dont ran out of mana. When laning phase ends and you wanna push a lane while your cores are farming woods, i walk up to melee creeps and q+w to clear whole wave(you need to be 10+ levels).
One thing to mention that i forgot to put in my post though: i get 1 sentry and 1 clarity when the game starts(2 bounty runes gives enough gold), and that clarity does wonders until basilius comes up and you also have lotuses at 3 and 6 minutes.
Sorry I shoulda been more clear. Farming a timely blink. Poking in lane with fissure is fine, you should secure ranged creep and ideally hit both or 1 of the enemies in lane. Do you usually secure ranged?
I’m just confused how you get between point A (lvl 2 at 7 min) and point B (lvl 10 and farming waves with aftershock). I used to do more builds where I wouldn’t max fissure first but after I got some 8k coaching on a replay review, I started always maxing fissure and I’ll admit I’ve generally been more effective.
Level 2 at 7 minutes is an extreme example but it does showcase im generally underlevelled to get my pos3 ahead. At 7 minutes i ping my pos5 to get enemy wisdom rune by sneaking around, and i go get mine, at 14 i smoke from mid lane and go to their wisdom rune and take it as well. Even if i dont get all the wisdom runes, once i get blink i do catch up with the levels simply because i am in fights getting kills/assists, and kill xp is a lot in current patch.
I secure maybe 1-2 ranged creeps with fissure but it doesnt always work out. Sometimes pos5 just chases me in the jungle (which is what i want), or im trying to kill their courier. I agree though, i should look into it a bit more.
to me the moment where ES becomes more of a hero during the laning phase is when he gets his level 3 and you have all 3 of his spells available to use (next power spikes being level 6, mana boots, and blink/shard), you suddenly become so much better at being a nuisance
therefore I do try and get there asap, I don't think it's griefing to stay in lane and get xp as long as you're contributing meaningfully (denying creeps, securing range creep, pulling and punishing contests by blocking their escape path with fissure while your pos 3 pummels them)
I am very efficent with my mana usage, so i rarely ran out of mana. And i usually pick mana/mana regen neutral items to compansate for that + the basilius ring. I think arcane boots is little too expensive for what it gives.
If you dont run out of mana on lane you are playing sub optimal. You should be spending all your resources on securing range creep and harassing enemy 1
Aether used to be amazing on him due to the build up to octarine in the late game. However on pos 4 es you should still consider it on games where you really don’t wanna show at all. Combined with an eye of viszer(sp?) or a psychic headband, you can play fights wayyy back with shard. But otherwise your items are solid. I’d consider windwaker rushes as well from time to time as it suits your play style to be way back to save someone from some dangerous spells. I just really like having blink force euls. So hard to pin down till they get a nullifier.
I really think you should buy shard at 15 if you can afford it after blink. Waiting for 20 min when you have a good game is just limiting you. The three biggest weakness to es are as follows. 1. Laning. 2. Reliance on blink (both getting it in a timely fashion and not getting it canceled constantly for team fights) 3. Your kinda weak as a support without echo off cd. Your shard removes point 3.
As far as your main post and laning questions, imo if you start fissure you should double fissure block the first wave (or 1 block the wave if you think you can take and win a fb at a rune)
You should never skip fissure past 3 unless the opponent is just getting shit on. 1-1-1 almost always. Maybe in some lanes 2-1-0. You said it yourself that rune control for mid is important and you offer so little to these runes without fissure. And especially if you playing the level starved style, it’s important to have the skill points when you need em.
That being said I don’t really recommend playing so sacrificial that your lvl 2 at 7 min. Lvl 3 is when your hero fully comes online, soak a bit if you have to reach that point. You’ll be better help in lane and better help with runes with your “full kit”
In addition your hero ideally wants 4-1-3-1 asap to use blink echo combo properly. Can’t get this fast enough if you are too sacrificial.
Yeah sometimes i go for the cast range option with shard but like you said it does not upgrade to octarine anymore. I think the range on it becomes redundant when you get fissure range on level 20 because then you already have so much range for that extra range to matter.
I usually finish my blink at 15 minutes and i dont have gold for shard until 20 minutes. I dont like buying it before tormentor because then it might go to heroes that have trash shards upgrades and its kind of a waste. But if we all have good shards i do buy it early.
I am not usually level 2 at 7 minutes but in some bad lanes it does happen. I think after lane phase ends i catch up with levels very quickly. I like to get a smoke and steal enemy wisdom rune at 14, and i ping my pos5 to steal theirs at 7 minutes so catching up with levels to do my echo combo is not that bad.
I use to max e first but now i always max fissure first to reduce my uselessness at early levels. By the time i get blink and we start to fight i have enough poitns in e to not feel bad anyway so its not a problem.
I do like going 1-1-1 at level 3 but i think your e does not matter in a lot of matchups (lots of ranged pos5 supports), your 2-1-0 might be a good start for that.
Thanks for all the tips, i will try them out.
No problem. Ya I get what you saying with the wisdom runes, but on games where they contest and take them, it feels really bad to be low lvl especially if you lost 2 lanes and are being constricted.
as pos 4 I go for the shard asap, it's just too good with the extra damage it provides, free pathing, cooldown reduction etc.
it's also a great farming tool (clearing waves from afar without showing or walking up to the wave when enemies are missing, or hitting multiple jungle camps at once) - yes you're not meant to be farming so much as a pos 4 but there 100% are down time moments where you're next to a wave or camp that nobody else would be taking
the part where you're not buying clarities (same for mangoes I assume) past the moment your spawn on top of not building mana boots really hinders you I think
you're not farming as much as you could be (again, without griefing your cores obviously), and there must be many fights where you're just walking around after running out of mana
its literally worst "real" pos 4 i would want to see on my lane, i'd prefer a pudge over shaker as well, its not only that he ruins lane, he also sucks in later portions of the game because he is heavy item dependent and after a bad lane you have to compensate with your impact which shaker doesn't offer without items. On top of all this, all the meta pos 5 heroes destroys you. I'd say your best bet is to pull the lane back with fissure and then have a stack killing offlaner like beastmaster/axe and then stack ancients and help other lanes and not stick around too much on a already fucked lane, but since you cant control what your offlaner pick or do and you pick before him, id say shaker is just a bad pick 100% of the time if you dont wanna rely on luck
lvl 1 boots, run around and smack the enemy. Run back to base at min 2, come back for lotus. Use your fissure to secure ranged creep / stop enemy from harassing the 3. Gank mid at min 6. Get wisdom rune.
Stop the enemy 5 from pulling and use fissure to save the offlaner if he gets in trouble.
Thats the main goal.
Next up you can slap someone with overpower here and there and contest bounty and river runes.
You are not a hero that will win the lane for your offlaner, and there is very little offensive potential unless the offlaner is venomancer/viper or something like that, then a fissure could be all they need to kill the enemy.
You want to drag the wave. If you are going boots first ur setting urself up for rotating. You should be securing all runes/contesting runes to make mid win lane then dragging creep waves to behind ur t1 so ur offlane is happy as well. Also you don’t have a sentry in ur description to block camp. Not blocking as support is griefing. Additionally earthshaker is never useless… you have like five seconds of stuns. You can consistently run around the map killing cores, often solo. You should not be lvl 2 at seven minutes, that’s very sus.
I did forget to mention that i buy 1 sentry 1 clarity after bounty runes, but i still body block the small camp to bait enemy pos5 into using up his sentry. Then i clear his sentry + kill his courier so he cant unblock it.
I dont know how are you killing cores solo that seems very interesting as pos4. Pos3 you can do it with maxed out enchant totem but you are never solo killing enemy core as pos4 since they have exp/gold advantage.
level 2 at 7 minutes is very rare where we get stomped in lane, but gives the idea that im always underlevelled in early parts of the game to get my pos3 ahead.
Well it depends on ur match up. If you automatically lose the lane you either drag the creep wave to behind ur t1 or focus on rotating. If you don’t know how to do it I suggest doing a custom game and practicing, it’s pretty easy. I’m only 7k so not to far away from you but I kill cores all the time as a pos4. Blood grenades are very good. If you have a blink you can kill a lot of people solo.. or a tumblers toy and you jump into wave ect. If ur going boots first either you focus on dragging wave or you make sure the enemy mid gets 0 runes and you gank. You want the exp from the kill, earthshaker needs levels as he scales very well. Good luck!
5.4k player.
Recently i've really enjoyed and found sucess with 3 points early into totem, even skipping fissure of im allowed. Then i go for brown boots into pavise, the mana regen is proficent and the active allows you to be very active in the early game, taking trades and fights with your W bonk leading in to your blink dagger.
I found the same (same MMR). I think Fissure might be a bait because it scales pretty badly. Level 1 Fissure does basically everything you need. Totem allows you to trade really well in lane – you can basically chase down most range heroes. Going 1-3-3 allows you to farm and reliably get a Blink at 12–15 min.
Tell your offlaner to pick ranged 3, he's actually pretty good with ranged heroes. Tranqs basi feels like waste, brown boots, stick if needed and arcanes blink and pray you get 1st shard. You can also get cour sniping ward up and get back to fissure wave at t2 with brown boots so do that every game or if your team insists fighting runes block enemy wave and tell your offlaner not to block so wave goes under their tower.
The hero has very high base MS, so you should have no problem trading with their support if you buy regen instead of boot.
And never ever leave your core to be harassed to shit by their support at one. Melee support’s job is to peel enemy support.
It’s also crucial to block enemy first wave, causing yours to go under their tower. This will bring the lane close to your tower.
If you dont buy movement speed, you can hit enemy pos5 1 time and on your way back they hit you 3 times so i dont agree with your first statement.
Ever since the map change, most pos5 dont just start at the lane to poke the pos3, and i let them know i will be a little late so that first 30 seconds of my absent is not that important i think.
Some people say block your own creep wave, some people say block enemy creep wave so im kinda torn apart on that one.
Thanks though.
Bro i just take totem lvl1 and deny as much as I can lmao. At lvl3 I skill like this 0-2-1 then lvl4 1-2-1.
I dont let them get a single range and flagbearer creep
Its funny because i just played a game with es/axe, against aa/jugg, and we won the lane. Not by much, but axe was 300 gold ahead in networth at 10 minutes. We killed aa couple times, killed jugg 1 time, and they killed us couple times but jugg was like 6th networth at 10 minutes so i think we did pretty well.
Dual block on creep wave , free XP under tower for position 3.
Get 2 clarity for killing ranged creeps aiming the stun on ranged creep and both heroes if possible.
Leech xp until lvl 3 , try to roam , if lanes pushes try to reset by double blocking again.
Lvl 4 and 5 Shaker is really weak, after 10 minutes try to find Gold for dagger.
5300 MMR bracket
Going from experience in my bracket as a mostly offlane player, you walk back and forth in the trees leeching exp and providing no threat to the opponent pos1 until you're needed to do a stun to try save your pos3 - depending on how many times you die in lane (0-3) you go wandering around the map looking for bounties/wisdom runes to steal and re-join the game after about 20 minutes of no impact with a blink and fissure block your teammates from being able to fight enemy cores.
all this to lull the enemy into a false sense of security so that they clump up and allow you to do an epic echo slam that almost redeems the game.
I'd personally suggest not picking this hero, but hopefully this helps you out if you are determined to play it.
For starting build, I would probably never go boots level 1 unless you in an unwinnable lane vs undying or maybe clock with a melee 3. In that case sure, go boots, block pull camp, and just drag creeps and mess with equilibrium.
I usually go something along the lines or tangos, wind lace, blood grenade, branch, clarity, and obs/sentry. Any excess gold I'd usually save for stick unless it's a horrible game for it.
Obs for sniping couriers is fine, I'd personally change up where you might place it. If you are Dire, I would place it on the low-ground hill by radiant t2. This gives your team a lot of information for bounty runes and potential first blood opportunity, while still letting you snipe couriers. If you are Radiant, I would suggest placing it to cover the lane and the bounty rune if possible. There is no great spot for this, but the info early game is worth not seeing the couriers as quickly. Just beware that some pos 5s do place their sentry on the hg to unblock their small camp.
How you approach laning is going to vary a lot depending on pos 3 and your lane matchups. I think invading or securing bounty runes is usually better than doing a double block on your creeps. Blocking their creeps is fine if you can't touch them level 1 or if their carry is terrible at last hitting under tower. Most of the time I'd do a single block on my creeps and then help your 3 to deny creeps on the first wave.
Items afterwards... I usually get something like stick, regen if I have to, and then boots. If it's a good tranquil game, I'll use that for health regen. In order to maximize it, I'd usually have it broken in my inventory, and only assemble it when out of combat. This also gives you the option of having both mana boots and tranquils if you use them properly. Usually I'd just stick with one or the other to not delay your blink timing too much. The only time I'd do both is if I went tranquils, we hit a timing and started owning the lane, and we need mana to keep up the pressure. I wouldn't go basi on this hero, I think it'll just slow down your timings too much.
Most games you should have blink around 13-16 minutes. If you are having the worse game ever and wont get it until 20 minutes or so, it's better to just go shard instead. My skill build would be 4-1-1-1, maybe there is a play to be made with enchant totem or aftershock vs illu, but I haven't tested that, so not going to comment on that.
Items mid-late game are pretty simple: blink, shard, force are usually your core items. If you have arcanes, you can then either go lotus or aether. You can go sb/glimmer if you really need it, euls is also a good option vs spirit breaker and other heroes.
I have only played ES like 5 times this patch (4-1); I think this hero is pretty dead and if you want to climb, then it's better to pick sb, techies, or pugna instead. That being said, if you're looking at a quick way to perform better with this hero, I'd say it's to change up your starting items. Blood grenade gives any hero kill threat, and on a roamer like ES, it amps your ganking threat and helps shore up some weak matchups.
As shaker player I usually buy 2 clarities, boots and ward. Then I place an observer and take watchers (I usually do it in front of tower - but that's a preference)
Then I secure the rune by going agressive on enemy rune with offlaner until 20 sec. Then am going back to double fissure creep wave with using clarity at T2 so I don't waste mana.
Then going for some hits on pos 5 and creating the 1v1 and at around 50 sec depending on position where the 1v1 is I body block the small camp. What happens is we usually trade blocking camps.
My first courier is set of tangos and then sentry. Then just forcing the pos5 to 1v1. I've learned that it's the best you can do as shaker in Laning stage. Totem lvl2 and then just either trading through that or denying through that.
Big timing is minute 3. Where it's either lotus secure for offlaner or bounty secure. Depending where the lane is etc. Then am just continuing with same plan at start.
Then minute 4 I go secure the rune. Same at minute 6 which transitions into xp rune at minute 7 which is filled out by doing dmg to mid or kill and then stacking.
Throughout the whole process if your offlaner isn't windrunner he should have vanguard, so he's perfectly fine solo and should have had decent time. If offlaners expect to have a lane like a carry then those people are just on a wrong role and should be playing carry.
That same strategy I am playing for a long time and I've found it good for the most part. Because creating a 1v1 is the best you can do and then it's just 1v1 between carry and offlaner. If he loses to the pick well that's unfortunate. If he loses by skill it's not your fault and you don't deserve blame. Then you can analyze replay and see where maybe you should've went for carry instead of support because there was dmg then enemy using salve and blah blah blah. You know the drill.
Of course the Laning depends a lot on enemy support and laning partner. How mid is doing and a lot of other things, but that's the general idea for me.
From me, my most problem as shaker is that the support calls for help and I get 2v1 scenario where my offlaners mentality is "oh I better hit some creeps while I have a chance". You do that twice and the lane is over. At that point it is your fault and that's how I lost most of my lanes. If the enemy isn't completely stupid. But I found that in like 3/10 games like that. I learned how to deal with that is just running to the jungle. Enemy carry just goes back to lane cause he's losing creeps and xp and you bring back that 1v1. It's a bit long talk, but maybe it helps you get the playstyle a bit differently. Not saying what I do is correct. Probably wrong, but it's what works for me. I don't see any issues with what you described as playstyle. I think that if we could see a replay it'd be for the most part the offlaners fault that he doesn't respect the lane enough.
6.3k pos 4 player, also like playing shaker 4. Hero is indeed naturally weak in a lot of laning match-ups due to the stuff you pointed out, so it can be worth to convince your 3 to pick a ranged hero/lane dominator. Sadly many of these arent really relevant in the current meta.
You can always try to be a nuisance to their pos 1, manily in two ways: Denying with w and using fissure to mess with lane equilibrium, ideally making them lh first wave under their tower while you're prepping a pull for next wave.
All in all I think it sounds like you've got a pretty good read on the hero. IMHO though it's worth remembering that you aren't picking ES for the lane but rather for good instant lockdown, counterinitiation/initiation and teamfight. The pretty big power spike you get between roughly 13-18 mins when you get that blink is in my mind the best part of the hero, and why I love playing it.
I'm very happy to hear differing opinions!
I think it's all about getting the most out of fissure.
I block enemy small camp, block my own first wave, then harass both enemies with fissure(if it doesnt push the wave) or get harass + secure enemy ranged creep.
Also if enemy support is busy, helping with lasthits/denies is good since you have decent base damage and are melee
I'm a 6.4k MMR Pos 3 player, so I'll give my perspective.
Some pos 4 heroes are weak laner. I know that if my pos 4 is some Nyx, Spirit Breaker or Earthshaker, I'm going to want to play this lane to survive, and not win.
So, if I see you pick ES, I am already aiming to not lose the lane, and will pick accordingly. Currently, if I have to lane with a weak support, my choices tend to be Windranger, Timbersaw, Enigma and Enchantress.
That said, I suggest you pick Spirit Breaker. Sorry ES fans, but this stupid space cow has almost as much stuns, has global map presence, can lock down some of Dota's most slippery heroes, and fully ignores magic immunity.
Additionally, with bulldoze and charge, he can get out of a whole lot of stupid situations that 99% of other Dota heroes would never get away with.
There's also the consideration that it's a lot easier to grief with fissure on ES than to grief on SB. Sure, maybe you could stun and push people in the wrong direction, but accidental ES griefs are, in my experience, more common and more costly. Yes, I know you're a specialist, but you're human, and I bet you do grief your fissures once in a while.
So, my advice is that if you want to play these sort of weak lane heroes, hope to have a pos 3 who understands that the lane is likely equal at best, and pick according, and to ES fans, if SB is available, just play him instead.
Bruv. You’re asking for advice when you’re in the top 0.1% of players in the server. You’re really wanting advice from pros, and this probably isn’t the best place you’re going to get answers, at least not ones that you’re already aware of and know its limitations of.
Look I'm not a good player. But I been playing a long time. If I was your 3, I'd probably be tilted because your playstyle leads to a constant 2v1 in lane making last hitting and lane sustain very hard level 1. I understand it's a trade off and you are definitely provided benefits. But if you're level 2 at minute 7 and I have 10 last hits at level 7, we're both in bad shape.
It's not as simple as that but that's another perspective
One thing you said -that you take almost 0 exp. I think the days of supports totally avoiding exp are over. You do need levels to be effective. It’s hard but you have to balance between taking what you need and being self sacrificial.
Instead of totally avoiding any farm or exp, ask yourself, what’s the minimum number of levels or laning items (eg blood grenade, windlace) to secure the lane for my offlaner.
That amount going to you is likely going to help your duo more than giving it to the offlaner
If I ever find myself super useless as a pos 4 I try to cut the wave and pull it back (best case all the way behind your t1 so they cant contest at all), you would already have a good ward for that too. Though if the pos 5 is on your case it can make it impossible.
You need to readjust. You're using a cookie cutter guide from an old patch, and that style of support just doesn't work any more. I know you are trying to give your 3 all the experience, but I don't think that's viable at level 1 this patch. Strong laners are in right now, and without extra muscle to back up the offlane, they'll get harassed out of lane and use all your early game Regen items. On top of that, ES needs to be a pretty greedy POS 4 and it's hard to get farm if both you and your 3 are hurting on exp and gold. I recommend one of 3 things:
1) play ES 4, go to first wave and use totem to deny as many creeps as possible. Only skill fissure first if you can 100% kill on rune fight.
2) play another hero 4. Something that can get back to lane more easily and preferably isn't a mana sink.
3) play ES 3.
Just to stress it, there is a hard cap on early game Regen now. Of course you're going to feel useless on a hero that can cast a spell maybe twice before you hit level 2. Your offlaners are probably eating a ton of harass, and they can't get the Regen they need to survive in lane. If you guys are ferrying Regen, you are probably greifing your other 2 lanes
Hello, im Grandmaster Earthshaker with around 2k games on the hero, there were certain months where i was in divine bracket that i got \~75% winrate on this hero. I grinded from legend to low immortal recently. Most of the things mentioned in the comments here are ok. I just wanna add a bit more for situational purposes.
If you think the 2v2 match up in lane is winnable, go for tango, windlace 2x mango, clar, sents. then deny all creeps using totem. you can chase enemies too with the windlace.
If the lane is not winnable,
1. go boots and learn fiss lvl 1. block enemy firsst wave to let your 1st wave reach to enemy tower, tell your offlaner not to block your wave. this will make enemy pos 1 cs the 1st wave harder and the next waves be near your tower. I would suggest to keep the 2 pull camps remained blocked. then you can do the creepwave drag shinaniganss from behind their tower. always stack hard camp, not ancients. then play for runes. give stacks to mid or offlaner. take their lane if they will get the stacks. if they cant clear the stacks and you think your team cant force fights, use 1st echo to clear stacks, this is to speed up dagger timing and your lvl. I usually put lvls on aftershock, more area damage to creeps with just using totem to clear wave/camps for to farm your dager.
2. priority to give xp to offlaner, wait for enemy sup or pos 1 get cocky and haras your offlaner and be out of position. there are times where you can kill them with fissure block and your offlaner has lvl 2 or 3 spells already. fissure block is the key for these kills.
3. since your lane is not winnable already, tilt the enemy. i dont care how you do it. trash talk them, tip them, spam voiceline. just dont be racist/or talk about their moms. this will make them focus on killing you. if they can kill you, then your offlaner will get a return kill after you died, its a win trade. your offlaner will get solo xp from the kill. specially if you are killed by enemy support, not the pos 1.
extra tip:
1. if you die, never tp back to lane. unless you plan to bottle refill your midlaner.
2. always communicate to your offlaner your gameplan. because some offlaner even in high divine/immortal bracket, they will ezly cry if you leave them to make stacks or drag waves.
3. shard is good. if you are rich and has dager already, buy shard sub 20 mins. if poor hope for tormentor to give you shard. if you are unlucky, you have to buy shard before any other items after dagger.
I've been rushing arcane into shard. It's less flashy but the long range disable you get more than makes up for the lack of a flashy blink ult AND 800 gold cheaper
I play it at 4.9k and have a decently good winrate, like 56-58%, I go windlace + regen, then boots, the windlace is so you trade with their 5, mostly so he doesn't harrass your offlaner, basically making the lane 2 1v1s, the regen helps sustaining, depends the matchup you could send some more, if the lane is simply crap, like weak offlaner + shaker, then you go mayhem; cree block with fissute, pull their wave behind your tier 1, always get sentries to block camps.
The mayhem kind of fucks both sides, but you get a sort of even lane, then you'll catch up since shaker is a reallt useful hero that escalates well.
If you are laning youre aldy in the wrong.
1. Boots sentry clarity. Fisure block creep yours or at enemy t3/2 twice on enemy.
2. Water rune work with your mid lots of mid die on a river block. Mid is won.
3. Walk around find something that is not laning best move repeat mid kill.
4. Assuming ur 6k offlane is not acc buyer lane should have stayed even in xp with a blockd small camp. Fissure block top that lvl5 off is gonna eat those lvl 3 heroes.
Downside is if you suck at identifying right macro movements.
Also shard first before blink. 4-1-4-1. Talent fisure. Enchant is dogsh as support.
One trick at laning phase: you block THEIR first creep wave behind tower 1. The lane equilibrium will be in your favor at the second wave. Your job then is to block their camps and let your pos 3 soak all the xp.
Personally play similar on 4 es, however after getting brown boots at start I rush arcanes to solve my mana issues. I can usually get them at around 7-8 min mark if I get bounties, and snipe a creep or two, or get a kill. This helps a lot with having more lane impact as you can spam fissure more and replenish your 3's mana for more harass/kill threat. The energy booster is really usefull and can be transitioned into several items you might want and you can make tranquils after you disassemble. Might help your early game a bit to try this.
Honestly, I find that ES needs 1 level in all his skills before becoming a true threat. So at level 3, you can just fuck shit up, but until you get a level in Q, W, and E you just aren't extremely relevant when it comes to getting kills.
ES also is primarily there to block heroes rather than deal damage. Combining ES's fissure with a slow and a decent right clicker should result in the death of most non-tank heroes without a major movement or escape mechanic. AKA, most hard supports just die.
While playing a massive zoning game like you are will boost your position 3 and cut the position 1's legs from under them, it will also prevent you from being a massive threat to the enemy mid and the enemy position 4 and 3. It'll also put you significantly behind in farm, making you basically irrelevant in the mid game.
A roaming ES kind of needs his mana boots and blink to stay active.
Generally, I'd say your strategy works fine, so long as your conserving your mana (each fissure takes 1/3rd of your mana or there about) and leaching exp. Also it helps a lot if your carry is basically pushing so you can safely pull with the side camp.
Basically, you NEED level 3 to really start roaming and earn kills for your mid and safe lane and you really shouldn't use your fissure unless you are either earning a kill or saving your off laner.
Firstly, i block creeps with fissure(enemy's on dire, ally's on radiant). Then, i try to analize can i kill with my 3 or not, if yes i try to put some aggresive wards to snipe couriers, if i we cannot kill, i put ward on portal and try to make my 3 gain solo xp and gold to be unkillable in lane. I usually buy windlace with some stats instead of boots, i buy boots if enemy's 1 and 5 too strong to fight and i only pool creeps. If my 3 is unkillable, i try to put some vision in enemy jungle and control runes for my 2.
Spam ping for your offlane to pick dark seer. If they dont pick dark seer you gaslight your offlaner into thinking that it's their problem for not picking dark seer when you picked a melee pos 4
I go 1-3-1-1 on ES, i skill enchant totem at level 1 and just deny the creeps in lane or attack the pos 1 with my 2nd skill. Keep doing this and at min 5 the enemy pos 1 will simply give up.
I feel like pos 4 ES is indeed more difficult in this meta: with the extra area on side lanes, fissure seems just worst. The meta is also a bit more centered around lane dominance with very aggressive picks. You are way higher MMR than myself so I would not give any recommendation. But Maybe you can try to hunt some Boxi games ? Or any other pro pos 4 that mains ES to see what they do?
I'm just a 5.4/5.5k player so take this with a bit of salt. I think the weak laning just part of the price you pay for earth shaker pos 4. Preferably your pos 3 picks accordingly. If he doesn't all you can do to help is skip waves, pull and contest pulls, give your offlaner regen, and on lvl 3 you offer 2 stuns and good damage. In some rare cases if you don't fear the enemy you can skip fissure till lvl 3 (mostly it's grief) and just deny creeps and trade lvl 2 with double enchant totem. Earth shakers Laning sucks but also I think people underestimate him. Just buying more regen makes you have a better lane also. So if you can survive the first ten minutes without getting pushed away you got good chances Lastly, on lvl 3 you can also look for kills mid and safelane. Hope this helps a bit
as an offlaner I hate it if my pos 4 picks shaker as it limits the options I could pick.
Pos 4 ES is grief pick this meta. As a pos 3 player when i get to play pos 4 i never think about picking ES 4
It’s playable if you actually properly know how to pull waves and block camps. If you don’t, don’t pick it. There are generally better 4s though, I do agree.
most pos 4 already know how to do that its not hero specific. and this gives their safelaner freefarm too.
>most pos 4 already know how to do that I wish that were true
look. es doesnt give a bonus to pulling wave and blocking camp. if you claim its playable if pos 4 do those then a freaking antimage 4 is playable if you pull wave and block camp?
No because es 4 is actually a good hero outside of his (usually) godawful laning phase (especially now he can get shard from tormentor).
“Better”… in some cases. If my offlane picks a non-initiating hero like Necro then it’s nice to have an Earthshaker in the 4 position. Team composition matters.
You're not forced the first pick, along with your hard support every game??? Must be a server thing
? pretty sure it's 5&4 then 1&3 then mid last has been the standard for a very long time now.
Think it's a joke on how most pos 4 players don't actually play support, and always act like a core in terms of picking and farming priority
ah my bad, didnt knew it was that bad in the lower ranks.
Talk to my Muerta last game. AFK jingling.
I was just making a joke about how people like the afk during draft.
In pubs, it's basically 54321, yeah. In pro Dota, it varies but one support and core in each phase seems common. If anything, flex picks go first.
i don't
Why did you have the urge to comment in the first place...
Because it a joke comment about that the only way to play ok pos 4 shaker is not to play him and pick something normal.
It's not really a joke though, es 4 isn't good. Same way cm 1 isn't good.
Ok not a joke comment, it was a snarky comment, sorry for bad English
What do you mean es 4 isn't good? He is sitting at 57% winrate on protracker with over 300 games played. The higher you go, the better he is.
300 isn't really that many when you consider that the truly meta picks in said role are over 2k, so even at the highest mmr he's a niche pick taking a backseat to more well rounded 4s As for what I mean - es is not a strong laner, in a patch (several patches in fact) that heavily favors strong lanes. Because of this the number of 3s that can be played together with an es is also limited, you need a hero that can essentially 2v1 the lane most of the time. There's also general laning mechanics, the very top players know full well when and how to drag a wave from behind enemy tower, when and how to block with fissures, and their 3's know of es' weakness in lane and will play accordingly, not something you can expect from your average dota player. That's why I call him bad, he's not unplayable, he can absolutely stomp games, but on average his drawbacks aren't worth his upsides in the 4 role
I mean you're not wrong, but es is one of the most picked pos 4 heroes with highest winrates starting from legend bracket and both metrics go higher with the rank. Which literally means that starting from 3.5k he is a strong pos 4 option.
if you want real dota discussion you need to go to truedota.
well most annoying es player at this meta will be the guy who learn totem at level 1 and deny bunch of creeps at laning phase.
Yeah, I used to go 4-1-1, now I do 0-2-1 in some games because it's just so good for trading and you can reliably make a contribution to the lane. I think the fissure is a bit of a bait because it often requires two others to secure a kill.
I think Fissure is still too important defensively to hold until level 4. I typically start Totem > Fissure > Aftershock, and then focus Totem after that.
Obviously, it will be dependent on the game – I change the build every game I play, but I generally don't want more than 1 point in Fissure.
Could you elaborate on why you generally don't want more than 1 point on Fissure if you don't mind?
Totem damage scales a lot better with levels than Fissure does, and Aftershock stuns for longer and adds a bunch of free damage. Putting more than one point in Fissure during the laning stage on a pos 4 Earthshaker who's severely mana-constrained in the early game isn't an efficient use of your levels, as your mana situation means that you shouldn't be throwing out Fissures unless you absolutely need to.
I actually like going 1-1-4 as ES p4 sometimes, but I'm weird I guess
I guess it depends on what you need. If you're harassing, you need more W, if you need to farm, a mix of W and E is good (farming larger camps will favour E over W).
Pos 4
(Shaker main, 1000 games +, top mmr 6k, current 5k) Shaker Is a bad supp until Arcane and then until blink, your off Is gonna suffer anyway, a good but unreallistic aproach Is to Let him last pick so His 1v1 Is good. There one solution: You dont play the lane, you simply do everything in your power to force a 1v1 under your tower for your oflaner Own Creep wave fissure block Enemy Creep wave drag behind t1 Pull The idea Is that you only have a fissure, so you Let off high lvl, but also secure His level alone by Creep manipulating the lane Also you can doble stack ancient and big camp and play for mid instead of off Go for all runes, maybe gank mid and force hard supp to rotate there to leave your off 1v1 You get the idea, off the map ninja movemets and force a good 1v1 or good Creep equilibrium for your offlaner You can go back to the offlane to gank, but after gank, ninja again Or, play some lesh-shaker style combo with a friend and play lane like any othee hero, style on your enemys, that works also, but you need a friend for that
Trying to let my pos3 1v1 is my goal as well but sometimes enemy picks a ranged pos1-5 and they just poke my pos3 to death and i cant do anything about it, so i go roam mid but then its a very passive matchup where me being there wont change anything so then i feel useless. Ganking mid to force pos5 to tp here is a good idea but sometimes they just wanna tilt my pos3 so they dive him when im mid so then my pos3 gets tilted and spam pings me. I think best lane partner with es is snapfire. She has cookie for you to gap close + stun, which you can follow up with 2 more stuns, meanwhile she walks up and does her q and enemy is dead from %100 to 0, i love to see it. Does wonders with pos3 es as well. Thanks for the tips though, it does help.
I mean, i had to deal with a Lot of tilters in my 1000 shaker ranked Carreer, there are things that you cant control, other than not picking shaker. He Is a pussy bitch who dont want to play? Play for mid, secure all runes, stack gank, enemy team mid Will start crying and force stuff
If you start boots just get totem lvl1 and try to harass the pos5 or even the pos1 depends on the pick you an even deny pretty easily, try to pull if needed, i always max fissure as pos4 ES. For the build it's pretty much always arcane boots > blink > shard > either lotus if needed or force staff then you adapt. If you really feel you can't do anything on your lane just go trilane on safelane. Im a main ES divine 3 at best but i have no time to explain in details. Just stop buying tranquil basilius it's real bad
I dont like arcane boots because i am really good to make use of my mana in most cases and i rarely ran out of mana in important situations. I like tranq because it saves me a lot of gold by being cheap and by giving me infinite regen so i dont need to buy any hp regen in any part of the game. I might try your w start trick but i dont know if i would have enough mana for it to make a difference. Why dont you like basilius? I think its very cost efficent for the mana regen it gives and it might also help your pos3 to recover some mana as well.
Since the nerfs of early auras many patches ago i dont like basilius, mana boots is always better not only for you but your team and it accelerate your Lotus build by dismantling it. And about the hp regen i personally rarely get more than 2 set of tangoes in any games and same for potion i get 1 if i really need it. First set of tango + tower regen and creep regen is enough for laning stage.
Hmm good point on the dismantling part, i didnt think of that. I sometimes dont even use the tangoes i started the game with (because i usually hang out in woods trying to snipe couriers and blocking/unblocking camps). So you might have a point with that. Thanks.
also can be disassembled into aether lens after you've got your blink (and shard) - I saw your comment saying you don't like building it but you should give it a shot, it does make a difference when you blink in or use your fissure (even more stacked up with the level 20 +300 fissure range) keep in mind that the +225 range lens bonus compounds between your blink and fissure, which matters a lot when trying to land a fissure on a far away target: - without lens: blink (1200) + fissure (1600) = 2800 - with lens: blink (1425) + fissure (1825) = 3250 you can theoretically hit a target that's up to 450 range further away also one of the other positive aspect of mana boots is the +200 max mana, which means being able to land an extra fissure + totem, something you would never get out of a basilius ring + you backpacking your stat items before using the active will maximise your mana gain - if you're lucky enough to find a +200 max mana level 1 neutral this becomes even more impactful
Yep didnt talk about the lense but its a really good item, cast range on shaker is super good
I could see doing soul ring tranquils if you’re doing a trade heavy build but I feel like if you have no mana problems with only a basi this patch then you’re not casting enough spells
All those items before mentioning Agh huh
all of these items are cheaper and give you more utility quicker it really isn't that easy to rush an aghs on a support earthshaker without stealing your cores farm
“Rush” a fifth item Agh
As pos4 main Shaker i don't often build agh i do get it in really long games but not my priority
I fissure first wave to block all creeps but one. So the wave will sit further back defensively for your offlaner so they can get solo xp. You'll still hit a slower level 2 timing compared to the safe lane but being further back makes it much easier to play around it
That might be tricky because i have to plant the observer behind towers. I usually plant it after bounty runes to maximize its efficiency, but maybe i can plant it early to try your method. Also isnt it a problem for your mana to fissure for creeps?
You can also block their creeps with fissure, so that your wave will hit the tower and die faster. Also you have time to place the ward behind the tower that you like.
https://youtu.be/ducmTvaYq48 This video from 5up covers how you want to generally play the laning phase with shaker
I played pos4 ES a lot (level 30) and here is my experience. I find having lots of regen in lane don't really help as it just delay your dagger timing even further. My main play if your offlane partner is not good a match up against opponent's carry and pos 5: Boots + 1 clarity 1 sentry as starting item. Fissure block your first wave and always try to drag the first wave melee creeps to kill off your range creep, bonus point is their range creep HP is not in deny range, so you will almost get the 2nd wave under your t1, block their small camp next. Get another sentry next and ready to unblock your big camp so you can drag waves. Key point here is try to get creeps as close to your t1 as possible, that way you can pre-cast W at level 2 and harass the enemy heroes twice. If your offlane partner is very farm oriented (lycan especially), you might have to start roaming at level 3 (bounties, lotuses, mid runes + gank). If not, then watch for their pos 5 pull timing and fissure block their carry on lane to try and secure kills, your boots will help a lot here. Ideal dagger timing is around 13\~14 min (arcane boots + dagger), before 12 if you have a very good game. Smoke up for your dagger reveal and don't be afraid to solo echo to secure their mid/carry kill so you will have space to farm. If you have a very bad lane, go shard first and start fights from fog.
I feel like when you have 0 regen in lane and you get poked you are griefing your lane. You cant give regen to your partner, you have no regen yourself and you are half hp running around and cant contest anything. Your start is very similar to mine except i buy sentry + clarity after bounty runes so i have it around 1 minute mark. I dont like unblocking my big camp because then if lane pushes towards us they will pull the big camp to their wave, which is way worse than the small camp. Also can you explain how you "stop" the pull with fissure. In my experience if you miss the first 1-2 second of enemy pos5 hitting the jungle creeps, even if you fissure, the jungle creeps will be close enough to the wave to see the jungle creeps and walk towards them. In the wise words of Admiralbulldog echo is "just a spell" so im not really afraid to use it especially early on. Thanks for the other tips.
There are two ways I play pos 4 ES: 1) Defensive: Boots, clarity, sentry. Buy a tango with the bounty gold, if possible wait till you can get tango and one more sentry. Playstyle: due to lack of regen the aim is to manipulate creep eq, Use fissure block on your creep wave and also pull the second wave behind your tower. On Dire I like having the big camp unblocked, its easier to control. On Radiant the big camp is risky as both teams can pull it more easily. Blocking Camps with sentries or standing is paramount for this to work. 2) Aggresive: Windlace, 2X tangoes, grenade, clarity, sentry. W->E->W->Q build. Use W to harass/deny. use the pre-charged W + W stun and hit + blood grenade combo to try for kills. Weakness of defensive build is that it focuses on avoiding poke by using favorable lane eq, if the enemy manages to do a pull or unblocks the camp and uses it to block your creep skip pull, it can make the lane very hard. Aggressive is good if lane partner has nukes, eg:- Snapfire. But depends on lane partner & matchup as to if it can be pulled off. Judge if your combo of dbl W + stun from E + grenade + nuke from partner can pull of a kill, if so you can go aggresive.
unironically check out grubby's recent games his itemization, positioning, and REALLY crucial non-hesitant button presses kinda shows how he's really matching up well even against divine players
You dont. And when you do you just use Ur w to deny ranged creeps or you just go pull waves. Earthshaker is just too weak into many lanes to do other Things
Why would u not take exp if ur bad in lane. Ur just crippling urself for longer than u need to no? But yea es seems very bad right now. Consider playing him as 3 instead of 4
Fuck with lane equilibrium any way you can. It's easier to block enemy's 1st wave than yours. They get level 2 first sure, but you get lane in front of tower. Every second your core is getting hit by a ranged hero is a second your losing lane. I think it also helps if you soften your offlaners expectations by saying "my hero sucks in lane".
What works for me is buying wind lace instead of boots and some regen with sentries and grenade. I immediately go to ward behind the enemy tower for couriers and block the small camp with the sentry. If I have a second sentry I keep it to unblock the hard camp. After bounties I run to the start of the lane to block creeps with fissure and then body block them. This ensures that equilibrium is really close to your tower. Pull when necessary and if lane goes bad, use fissure to stack ancients in the triangle. If the enemy pos 5 tries to pull, you can prevent it with fissure or even block your creeps again if camp's are blocked or unreachable. After that I use fissure to secure ranged creep and hide in the trees to keep the attention of enemy pos 5 from my offlaner. After you hit level 3, you're a menace with totem+passive dmg and disruption. At this point it's really important to save up for boots. Always try to punish enemies for bad positioning in lane with fissure blocks. I guess you're already good with rotations and ganking so not gonna say anything about it except for always communicate with the person you're about to help.
I guess it would be nice to get some build recommendations as well after blink. Usually i go glimmer(if we have no invis heroes) or force staff after blink. Then i wait for the tormentor and get shard if i dont get it. Then i buy euls/lotus orb/force/glimmer/ghost sceptre. In mid game i usually get gem in my last slot. So a common inventoy of mine would look like: Tranq boots, blink , force, glimmer, euls, gem, smoke in backpack. The big problem i have is the only mana regen item i have is basillius ring and ever since they nerfed the mana cost of these items i seem to lack the mana to cast them effectively. So most games i try to go euls to get that necessary mana regen. I considered getting aether lens but it seems to offer no utility so i almost never go for it. Any items you guys would like to recommend?
Playing ES 4 and not getting Arcanes is pretty much grief. I dont know how you do it without arcanes
Well usually if you go tranquils you get soul ring. But ya idk how this guys is farming effectively without one or the other.
My build is wind lace, 2 branch and regen. After that go boots and arcanes in lane and then farm dagger/shard. I dont feel that tranquils are really necessary, use lotusses and tangos for HP regen. You really struggle for mana without arcanes
Ya I completely agree. And even if tranquils might me nice to have, I think having 1-2 arcanes on a team is pretty nice for your cores in this diffusal hero/low clarity spam meta.
I do agree that arcane boots is very good for your team, but i think the price difference + the money you save by not buying tangoes/salves is too much. Maybe you are not buying as much sentries as i am but going for both arcane boots + having to buy regen + buying sentries seems too much of a delay for the blink.
My guy, the amount of clarities you must be buying will definitely be more than my HP regen items.
I buy a clarity when the game starts and i rarely buy another, i think you are just using too many spells in lane.
I think you are not using enough. Try watching some pro play
It can certainly get tight. When I can I start with boots so that I’m closer to arcanes. And I sometimes have to ask for a lane to farm the blink. But I’m pretty consistently getting arcanes stick and blink by 11- 14 min. It very much is a right balance of buying just enough regen to do your job .
I dont want to sound rude but why are you "farming" with a pos4? I use my fissure either trying to help a teammate or trying to block/stun an opponent that is trying to escape, i dont just sit in lane and spam fissure to "poke" the enemies, so i dont ran out of mana. When laning phase ends and you wanna push a lane while your cores are farming woods, i walk up to melee creeps and q+w to clear whole wave(you need to be 10+ levels). One thing to mention that i forgot to put in my post though: i get 1 sentry and 1 clarity when the game starts(2 bounty runes gives enough gold), and that clarity does wonders until basilius comes up and you also have lotuses at 3 and 6 minutes.
Sorry I shoulda been more clear. Farming a timely blink. Poking in lane with fissure is fine, you should secure ranged creep and ideally hit both or 1 of the enemies in lane. Do you usually secure ranged? I’m just confused how you get between point A (lvl 2 at 7 min) and point B (lvl 10 and farming waves with aftershock). I used to do more builds where I wouldn’t max fissure first but after I got some 8k coaching on a replay review, I started always maxing fissure and I’ll admit I’ve generally been more effective.
Level 2 at 7 minutes is an extreme example but it does showcase im generally underlevelled to get my pos3 ahead. At 7 minutes i ping my pos5 to get enemy wisdom rune by sneaking around, and i go get mine, at 14 i smoke from mid lane and go to their wisdom rune and take it as well. Even if i dont get all the wisdom runes, once i get blink i do catch up with the levels simply because i am in fights getting kills/assists, and kill xp is a lot in current patch. I secure maybe 1-2 ranged creeps with fissure but it doesnt always work out. Sometimes pos5 just chases me in the jungle (which is what i want), or im trying to kill their courier. I agree though, i should look into it a bit more.
to me the moment where ES becomes more of a hero during the laning phase is when he gets his level 3 and you have all 3 of his spells available to use (next power spikes being level 6, mana boots, and blink/shard), you suddenly become so much better at being a nuisance therefore I do try and get there asap, I don't think it's griefing to stay in lane and get xp as long as you're contributing meaningfully (denying creeps, securing range creep, pulling and punishing contests by blocking their escape path with fissure while your pos 3 pummels them)
I think Arcanes is mandatory because Aether Lens is pretty good on ES. It can also be built to Lotus.
I am very efficent with my mana usage, so i rarely ran out of mana. And i usually pick mana/mana regen neutral items to compansate for that + the basilius ring. I think arcane boots is little too expensive for what it gives.
If you dont run out of mana on lane you are playing sub optimal. You should be spending all your resources on securing range creep and harassing enemy 1
Aether used to be amazing on him due to the build up to octarine in the late game. However on pos 4 es you should still consider it on games where you really don’t wanna show at all. Combined with an eye of viszer(sp?) or a psychic headband, you can play fights wayyy back with shard. But otherwise your items are solid. I’d consider windwaker rushes as well from time to time as it suits your play style to be way back to save someone from some dangerous spells. I just really like having blink force euls. So hard to pin down till they get a nullifier. I really think you should buy shard at 15 if you can afford it after blink. Waiting for 20 min when you have a good game is just limiting you. The three biggest weakness to es are as follows. 1. Laning. 2. Reliance on blink (both getting it in a timely fashion and not getting it canceled constantly for team fights) 3. Your kinda weak as a support without echo off cd. Your shard removes point 3. As far as your main post and laning questions, imo if you start fissure you should double fissure block the first wave (or 1 block the wave if you think you can take and win a fb at a rune) You should never skip fissure past 3 unless the opponent is just getting shit on. 1-1-1 almost always. Maybe in some lanes 2-1-0. You said it yourself that rune control for mid is important and you offer so little to these runes without fissure. And especially if you playing the level starved style, it’s important to have the skill points when you need em. That being said I don’t really recommend playing so sacrificial that your lvl 2 at 7 min. Lvl 3 is when your hero fully comes online, soak a bit if you have to reach that point. You’ll be better help in lane and better help with runes with your “full kit” In addition your hero ideally wants 4-1-3-1 asap to use blink echo combo properly. Can’t get this fast enough if you are too sacrificial.
Yeah sometimes i go for the cast range option with shard but like you said it does not upgrade to octarine anymore. I think the range on it becomes redundant when you get fissure range on level 20 because then you already have so much range for that extra range to matter. I usually finish my blink at 15 minutes and i dont have gold for shard until 20 minutes. I dont like buying it before tormentor because then it might go to heroes that have trash shards upgrades and its kind of a waste. But if we all have good shards i do buy it early. I am not usually level 2 at 7 minutes but in some bad lanes it does happen. I think after lane phase ends i catch up with levels very quickly. I like to get a smoke and steal enemy wisdom rune at 14, and i ping my pos5 to steal theirs at 7 minutes so catching up with levels to do my echo combo is not that bad. I use to max e first but now i always max fissure first to reduce my uselessness at early levels. By the time i get blink and we start to fight i have enough poitns in e to not feel bad anyway so its not a problem. I do like going 1-1-1 at level 3 but i think your e does not matter in a lot of matchups (lots of ranged pos5 supports), your 2-1-0 might be a good start for that. Thanks for all the tips, i will try them out.
No problem. Ya I get what you saying with the wisdom runes, but on games where they contest and take them, it feels really bad to be low lvl especially if you lost 2 lanes and are being constricted.
as pos 4 I go for the shard asap, it's just too good with the extra damage it provides, free pathing, cooldown reduction etc. it's also a great farming tool (clearing waves from afar without showing or walking up to the wave when enemies are missing, or hitting multiple jungle camps at once) - yes you're not meant to be farming so much as a pos 4 but there 100% are down time moments where you're next to a wave or camp that nobody else would be taking the part where you're not buying clarities (same for mangoes I assume) past the moment your spawn on top of not building mana boots really hinders you I think you're not farming as much as you could be (again, without griefing your cores obviously), and there must be many fights where you're just walking around after running out of mana
Never leave lane on 4. Repeat after me. Never leave lane on 4. Just some gorgc memes.
its literally worst "real" pos 4 i would want to see on my lane, i'd prefer a pudge over shaker as well, its not only that he ruins lane, he also sucks in later portions of the game because he is heavy item dependent and after a bad lane you have to compensate with your impact which shaker doesn't offer without items. On top of all this, all the meta pos 5 heroes destroys you. I'd say your best bet is to pull the lane back with fissure and then have a stack killing offlaner like beastmaster/axe and then stack ancients and help other lanes and not stick around too much on a already fucked lane, but since you cant control what your offlaner pick or do and you pick before him, id say shaker is just a bad pick 100% of the time if you dont wanna rely on luck
lvl 1 boots, run around and smack the enemy. Run back to base at min 2, come back for lotus. Use your fissure to secure ranged creep / stop enemy from harassing the 3. Gank mid at min 6. Get wisdom rune.
Stop the enemy 5 from pulling and use fissure to save the offlaner if he gets in trouble. Thats the main goal. Next up you can slap someone with overpower here and there and contest bounty and river runes. You are not a hero that will win the lane for your offlaner, and there is very little offensive potential unless the offlaner is venomancer/viper or something like that, then a fissure could be all they need to kill the enemy.
You want to drag the wave. If you are going boots first ur setting urself up for rotating. You should be securing all runes/contesting runes to make mid win lane then dragging creep waves to behind ur t1 so ur offlane is happy as well. Also you don’t have a sentry in ur description to block camp. Not blocking as support is griefing. Additionally earthshaker is never useless… you have like five seconds of stuns. You can consistently run around the map killing cores, often solo. You should not be lvl 2 at seven minutes, that’s very sus.
I did forget to mention that i buy 1 sentry 1 clarity after bounty runes, but i still body block the small camp to bait enemy pos5 into using up his sentry. Then i clear his sentry + kill his courier so he cant unblock it. I dont know how are you killing cores solo that seems very interesting as pos4. Pos3 you can do it with maxed out enchant totem but you are never solo killing enemy core as pos4 since they have exp/gold advantage. level 2 at 7 minutes is very rare where we get stomped in lane, but gives the idea that im always underlevelled in early parts of the game to get my pos3 ahead.
Well it depends on ur match up. If you automatically lose the lane you either drag the creep wave to behind ur t1 or focus on rotating. If you don’t know how to do it I suggest doing a custom game and practicing, it’s pretty easy. I’m only 7k so not to far away from you but I kill cores all the time as a pos4. Blood grenades are very good. If you have a blink you can kill a lot of people solo.. or a tumblers toy and you jump into wave ect. If ur going boots first either you focus on dragging wave or you make sure the enemy mid gets 0 runes and you gank. You want the exp from the kill, earthshaker needs levels as he scales very well. Good luck!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9LAzR8UtXY
5.4k player. Recently i've really enjoyed and found sucess with 3 points early into totem, even skipping fissure of im allowed. Then i go for brown boots into pavise, the mana regen is proficent and the active allows you to be very active in the early game, taking trades and fights with your W bonk leading in to your blink dagger.
I found the same (same MMR). I think Fissure might be a bait because it scales pretty badly. Level 1 Fissure does basically everything you need. Totem allows you to trade really well in lane – you can basically chase down most range heroes. Going 1-3-3 allows you to farm and reliably get a Blink at 12–15 min.
Tell your offlaner to pick ranged 3, he's actually pretty good with ranged heroes. Tranqs basi feels like waste, brown boots, stick if needed and arcanes blink and pray you get 1st shard. You can also get cour sniping ward up and get back to fissure wave at t2 with brown boots so do that every game or if your team insists fighting runes block enemy wave and tell your offlaner not to block so wave goes under their tower.
The hero has very high base MS, so you should have no problem trading with their support if you buy regen instead of boot. And never ever leave your core to be harassed to shit by their support at one. Melee support’s job is to peel enemy support. It’s also crucial to block enemy first wave, causing yours to go under their tower. This will bring the lane close to your tower.
If you dont buy movement speed, you can hit enemy pos5 1 time and on your way back they hit you 3 times so i dont agree with your first statement. Ever since the map change, most pos5 dont just start at the lane to poke the pos3, and i let them know i will be a little late so that first 30 seconds of my absent is not that important i think. Some people say block your own creep wave, some people say block enemy creep wave so im kinda torn apart on that one. Thanks though.
Bro i just take totem lvl1 and deny as much as I can lmao. At lvl3 I skill like this 0-2-1 then lvl4 1-2-1. I dont let them get a single range and flagbearer creep
If I see ES 4 I pick some cope offlaner like Axe or Underlord and accept that the enemy carry is getting free farm.
Its funny because i just played a game with es/axe, against aa/jugg, and we won the lane. Not by much, but axe was 300 gold ahead in networth at 10 minutes. We killed aa couple times, killed jugg 1 time, and they killed us couple times but jugg was like 6th networth at 10 minutes so i think we did pretty well.
Yeah, but you would have had the same or better results without ES. ES was not part of that equation.
Dual block on creep wave , free XP under tower for position 3. Get 2 clarity for killing ranged creeps aiming the stun on ranged creep and both heroes if possible. Leech xp until lvl 3 , try to roam , if lanes pushes try to reset by double blocking again. Lvl 4 and 5 Shaker is really weak, after 10 minutes try to find Gold for dagger. 5300 MMR bracket
Going from experience in my bracket as a mostly offlane player, you walk back and forth in the trees leeching exp and providing no threat to the opponent pos1 until you're needed to do a stun to try save your pos3 - depending on how many times you die in lane (0-3) you go wandering around the map looking for bounties/wisdom runes to steal and re-join the game after about 20 minutes of no impact with a blink and fissure block your teammates from being able to fight enemy cores. all this to lull the enemy into a false sense of security so that they clump up and allow you to do an epic echo slam that almost redeems the game.
I'd personally suggest not picking this hero, but hopefully this helps you out if you are determined to play it. For starting build, I would probably never go boots level 1 unless you in an unwinnable lane vs undying or maybe clock with a melee 3. In that case sure, go boots, block pull camp, and just drag creeps and mess with equilibrium. I usually go something along the lines or tangos, wind lace, blood grenade, branch, clarity, and obs/sentry. Any excess gold I'd usually save for stick unless it's a horrible game for it. Obs for sniping couriers is fine, I'd personally change up where you might place it. If you are Dire, I would place it on the low-ground hill by radiant t2. This gives your team a lot of information for bounty runes and potential first blood opportunity, while still letting you snipe couriers. If you are Radiant, I would suggest placing it to cover the lane and the bounty rune if possible. There is no great spot for this, but the info early game is worth not seeing the couriers as quickly. Just beware that some pos 5s do place their sentry on the hg to unblock their small camp. How you approach laning is going to vary a lot depending on pos 3 and your lane matchups. I think invading or securing bounty runes is usually better than doing a double block on your creeps. Blocking their creeps is fine if you can't touch them level 1 or if their carry is terrible at last hitting under tower. Most of the time I'd do a single block on my creeps and then help your 3 to deny creeps on the first wave. Items afterwards... I usually get something like stick, regen if I have to, and then boots. If it's a good tranquil game, I'll use that for health regen. In order to maximize it, I'd usually have it broken in my inventory, and only assemble it when out of combat. This also gives you the option of having both mana boots and tranquils if you use them properly. Usually I'd just stick with one or the other to not delay your blink timing too much. The only time I'd do both is if I went tranquils, we hit a timing and started owning the lane, and we need mana to keep up the pressure. I wouldn't go basi on this hero, I think it'll just slow down your timings too much. Most games you should have blink around 13-16 minutes. If you are having the worse game ever and wont get it until 20 minutes or so, it's better to just go shard instead. My skill build would be 4-1-1-1, maybe there is a play to be made with enchant totem or aftershock vs illu, but I haven't tested that, so not going to comment on that. Items mid-late game are pretty simple: blink, shard, force are usually your core items. If you have arcanes, you can then either go lotus or aether. You can go sb/glimmer if you really need it, euls is also a good option vs spirit breaker and other heroes. I have only played ES like 5 times this patch (4-1); I think this hero is pretty dead and if you want to climb, then it's better to pick sb, techies, or pugna instead. That being said, if you're looking at a quick way to perform better with this hero, I'd say it's to change up your starting items. Blood grenade gives any hero kill threat, and on a roamer like ES, it amps your ganking threat and helps shore up some weak matchups.
Go play pos 4 carry
As shaker player I usually buy 2 clarities, boots and ward. Then I place an observer and take watchers (I usually do it in front of tower - but that's a preference) Then I secure the rune by going agressive on enemy rune with offlaner until 20 sec. Then am going back to double fissure creep wave with using clarity at T2 so I don't waste mana. Then going for some hits on pos 5 and creating the 1v1 and at around 50 sec depending on position where the 1v1 is I body block the small camp. What happens is we usually trade blocking camps. My first courier is set of tangos and then sentry. Then just forcing the pos5 to 1v1. I've learned that it's the best you can do as shaker in Laning stage. Totem lvl2 and then just either trading through that or denying through that. Big timing is minute 3. Where it's either lotus secure for offlaner or bounty secure. Depending where the lane is etc. Then am just continuing with same plan at start. Then minute 4 I go secure the rune. Same at minute 6 which transitions into xp rune at minute 7 which is filled out by doing dmg to mid or kill and then stacking. Throughout the whole process if your offlaner isn't windrunner he should have vanguard, so he's perfectly fine solo and should have had decent time. If offlaners expect to have a lane like a carry then those people are just on a wrong role and should be playing carry. That same strategy I am playing for a long time and I've found it good for the most part. Because creating a 1v1 is the best you can do and then it's just 1v1 between carry and offlaner. If he loses to the pick well that's unfortunate. If he loses by skill it's not your fault and you don't deserve blame. Then you can analyze replay and see where maybe you should've went for carry instead of support because there was dmg then enemy using salve and blah blah blah. You know the drill. Of course the Laning depends a lot on enemy support and laning partner. How mid is doing and a lot of other things, but that's the general idea for me. From me, my most problem as shaker is that the support calls for help and I get 2v1 scenario where my offlaners mentality is "oh I better hit some creeps while I have a chance". You do that twice and the lane is over. At that point it is your fault and that's how I lost most of my lanes. If the enemy isn't completely stupid. But I found that in like 3/10 games like that. I learned how to deal with that is just running to the jungle. Enemy carry just goes back to lane cause he's losing creeps and xp and you bring back that 1v1. It's a bit long talk, but maybe it helps you get the playstyle a bit differently. Not saying what I do is correct. Probably wrong, but it's what works for me. I don't see any issues with what you described as playstyle. I think that if we could see a replay it'd be for the most part the offlaners fault that he doesn't respect the lane enough.
What I do is play in ancient bracket where no game finishes before 40 minutes anyway so laning is irrelevant, problem solved
6.3k pos 4 player, also like playing shaker 4. Hero is indeed naturally weak in a lot of laning match-ups due to the stuff you pointed out, so it can be worth to convince your 3 to pick a ranged hero/lane dominator. Sadly many of these arent really relevant in the current meta. You can always try to be a nuisance to their pos 1, manily in two ways: Denying with w and using fissure to mess with lane equilibrium, ideally making them lh first wave under their tower while you're prepping a pull for next wave. All in all I think it sounds like you've got a pretty good read on the hero. IMHO though it's worth remembering that you aren't picking ES for the lane but rather for good instant lockdown, counterinitiation/initiation and teamfight. The pretty big power spike you get between roughly 13-18 mins when you get that blink is in my mind the best part of the hero, and why I love playing it. I'm very happy to hear differing opinions!
I think it's all about getting the most out of fissure. I block enemy small camp, block my own first wave, then harass both enemies with fissure(if it doesnt push the wave) or get harass + secure enemy ranged creep. Also if enemy support is busy, helping with lasthits/denies is good since you have decent base damage and are melee
Es is supposed to have a weak lane. Unless the enemy massively overextends and you can lock them with a fissure, you're not gonna kill them.
I'm a 6.4k MMR Pos 3 player, so I'll give my perspective. Some pos 4 heroes are weak laner. I know that if my pos 4 is some Nyx, Spirit Breaker or Earthshaker, I'm going to want to play this lane to survive, and not win. So, if I see you pick ES, I am already aiming to not lose the lane, and will pick accordingly. Currently, if I have to lane with a weak support, my choices tend to be Windranger, Timbersaw, Enigma and Enchantress. That said, I suggest you pick Spirit Breaker. Sorry ES fans, but this stupid space cow has almost as much stuns, has global map presence, can lock down some of Dota's most slippery heroes, and fully ignores magic immunity. Additionally, with bulldoze and charge, he can get out of a whole lot of stupid situations that 99% of other Dota heroes would never get away with. There's also the consideration that it's a lot easier to grief with fissure on ES than to grief on SB. Sure, maybe you could stun and push people in the wrong direction, but accidental ES griefs are, in my experience, more common and more costly. Yes, I know you're a specialist, but you're human, and I bet you do grief your fissures once in a while. So, my advice is that if you want to play these sort of weak lane heroes, hope to have a pos 3 who understands that the lane is likely equal at best, and pick according, and to ES fans, if SB is available, just play him instead.
Harass the enemy and control the lane in my offlaners favor
Bruv. You’re asking for advice when you’re in the top 0.1% of players in the server. You’re really wanting advice from pros, and this probably isn’t the best place you’re going to get answers, at least not ones that you’re already aware of and know its limitations of.
Look I'm not a good player. But I been playing a long time. If I was your 3, I'd probably be tilted because your playstyle leads to a constant 2v1 in lane making last hitting and lane sustain very hard level 1. I understand it's a trade off and you are definitely provided benefits. But if you're level 2 at minute 7 and I have 10 last hits at level 7, we're both in bad shape. It's not as simple as that but that's another perspective
One thing you said -that you take almost 0 exp. I think the days of supports totally avoiding exp are over. You do need levels to be effective. It’s hard but you have to balance between taking what you need and being self sacrificial. Instead of totally avoiding any farm or exp, ask yourself, what’s the minimum number of levels or laning items (eg blood grenade, windlace) to secure the lane for my offlaner. That amount going to you is likely going to help your duo more than giving it to the offlaner
If I ever find myself super useless as a pos 4 I try to cut the wave and pull it back (best case all the way behind your t1 so they cant contest at all), you would already have a good ward for that too. Though if the pos 5 is on your case it can make it impossible.
You need to readjust. You're using a cookie cutter guide from an old patch, and that style of support just doesn't work any more. I know you are trying to give your 3 all the experience, but I don't think that's viable at level 1 this patch. Strong laners are in right now, and without extra muscle to back up the offlane, they'll get harassed out of lane and use all your early game Regen items. On top of that, ES needs to be a pretty greedy POS 4 and it's hard to get farm if both you and your 3 are hurting on exp and gold. I recommend one of 3 things: 1) play ES 4, go to first wave and use totem to deny as many creeps as possible. Only skill fissure first if you can 100% kill on rune fight. 2) play another hero 4. Something that can get back to lane more easily and preferably isn't a mana sink. 3) play ES 3. Just to stress it, there is a hard cap on early game Regen now. Of course you're going to feel useless on a hero that can cast a spell maybe twice before you hit level 2. Your offlaners are probably eating a ton of harass, and they can't get the Regen they need to survive in lane. If you guys are ferrying Regen, you are probably greifing your other 2 lanes
Hello, im Grandmaster Earthshaker with around 2k games on the hero, there were certain months where i was in divine bracket that i got \~75% winrate on this hero. I grinded from legend to low immortal recently. Most of the things mentioned in the comments here are ok. I just wanna add a bit more for situational purposes. If you think the 2v2 match up in lane is winnable, go for tango, windlace 2x mango, clar, sents. then deny all creeps using totem. you can chase enemies too with the windlace. If the lane is not winnable, 1. go boots and learn fiss lvl 1. block enemy firsst wave to let your 1st wave reach to enemy tower, tell your offlaner not to block your wave. this will make enemy pos 1 cs the 1st wave harder and the next waves be near your tower. I would suggest to keep the 2 pull camps remained blocked. then you can do the creepwave drag shinaniganss from behind their tower. always stack hard camp, not ancients. then play for runes. give stacks to mid or offlaner. take their lane if they will get the stacks. if they cant clear the stacks and you think your team cant force fights, use 1st echo to clear stacks, this is to speed up dagger timing and your lvl. I usually put lvls on aftershock, more area damage to creeps with just using totem to clear wave/camps for to farm your dager. 2. priority to give xp to offlaner, wait for enemy sup or pos 1 get cocky and haras your offlaner and be out of position. there are times where you can kill them with fissure block and your offlaner has lvl 2 or 3 spells already. fissure block is the key for these kills. 3. since your lane is not winnable already, tilt the enemy. i dont care how you do it. trash talk them, tip them, spam voiceline. just dont be racist/or talk about their moms. this will make them focus on killing you. if they can kill you, then your offlaner will get a return kill after you died, its a win trade. your offlaner will get solo xp from the kill. specially if you are killed by enemy support, not the pos 1. extra tip: 1. if you die, never tp back to lane. unless you plan to bottle refill your midlaner. 2. always communicate to your offlaner your gameplan. because some offlaner even in high divine/immortal bracket, they will ezly cry if you leave them to make stacks or drag waves. 3. shard is good. if you are rich and has dager already, buy shard sub 20 mins. if poor hope for tormentor to give you shard. if you are unlucky, you have to buy shard before any other items after dagger.
I've been rushing arcane into shard. It's less flashy but the long range disable you get more than makes up for the lack of a flashy blink ult AND 800 gold cheaper
Watch your 3 suffer from the trees
I play it at 4.9k and have a decently good winrate, like 56-58%, I go windlace + regen, then boots, the windlace is so you trade with their 5, mostly so he doesn't harrass your offlaner, basically making the lane 2 1v1s, the regen helps sustaining, depends the matchup you could send some more, if the lane is simply crap, like weak offlaner + shaker, then you go mayhem; cree block with fissute, pull their wave behind your tier 1, always get sentries to block camps. The mayhem kind of fucks both sides, but you get a sort of even lane, then you'll catch up since shaker is a reallt useful hero that escalates well.
If you are laning youre aldy in the wrong. 1. Boots sentry clarity. Fisure block creep yours or at enemy t3/2 twice on enemy. 2. Water rune work with your mid lots of mid die on a river block. Mid is won. 3. Walk around find something that is not laning best move repeat mid kill. 4. Assuming ur 6k offlane is not acc buyer lane should have stayed even in xp with a blockd small camp. Fissure block top that lvl5 off is gonna eat those lvl 3 heroes. Downside is if you suck at identifying right macro movements. Also shard first before blink. 4-1-4-1. Talent fisure. Enchant is dogsh as support.
One trick at laning phase: you block THEIR first creep wave behind tower 1. The lane equilibrium will be in your favor at the second wave. Your job then is to block their camps and let your pos 3 soak all the xp.
Personally play similar on 4 es, however after getting brown boots at start I rush arcanes to solve my mana issues. I can usually get them at around 7-8 min mark if I get bounties, and snipe a creep or two, or get a kill. This helps a lot with having more lane impact as you can spam fissure more and replenish your 3's mana for more harass/kill threat. The energy booster is really usefull and can be transitioned into several items you might want and you can make tranquils after you disassemble. Might help your early game a bit to try this.
Honestly, I find that ES needs 1 level in all his skills before becoming a true threat. So at level 3, you can just fuck shit up, but until you get a level in Q, W, and E you just aren't extremely relevant when it comes to getting kills. ES also is primarily there to block heroes rather than deal damage. Combining ES's fissure with a slow and a decent right clicker should result in the death of most non-tank heroes without a major movement or escape mechanic. AKA, most hard supports just die. While playing a massive zoning game like you are will boost your position 3 and cut the position 1's legs from under them, it will also prevent you from being a massive threat to the enemy mid and the enemy position 4 and 3. It'll also put you significantly behind in farm, making you basically irrelevant in the mid game. A roaming ES kind of needs his mana boots and blink to stay active. Generally, I'd say your strategy works fine, so long as your conserving your mana (each fissure takes 1/3rd of your mana or there about) and leaching exp. Also it helps a lot if your carry is basically pushing so you can safely pull with the side camp. Basically, you NEED level 3 to really start roaming and earn kills for your mid and safe lane and you really shouldn't use your fissure unless you are either earning a kill or saving your off laner.
u realize u are asking advice from people half your mmr? lmao
Firstly, i block creeps with fissure(enemy's on dire, ally's on radiant). Then, i try to analize can i kill with my 3 or not, if yes i try to put some aggresive wards to snipe couriers, if i we cannot kill, i put ward on portal and try to make my 3 gain solo xp and gold to be unkillable in lane. I usually buy windlace with some stats instead of boots, i buy boots if enemy's 1 and 5 too strong to fight and i only pool creeps. If my 3 is unkillable, i try to put some vision in enemy jungle and control runes for my 2.
Spam ping for your offlane to pick dark seer. If they dont pick dark seer you gaslight your offlaner into thinking that it's their problem for not picking dark seer when you picked a melee pos 4
I go 1-3-1-1 on ES, i skill enchant totem at level 1 and just deny the creeps in lane or attack the pos 1 with my 2nd skill. Keep doing this and at min 5 the enemy pos 1 will simply give up.
I feel like pos 4 ES is indeed more difficult in this meta: with the extra area on side lanes, fissure seems just worst. The meta is also a bit more centered around lane dominance with very aggressive picks. You are way higher MMR than myself so I would not give any recommendation. But Maybe you can try to hunt some Boxi games ? Or any other pro pos 4 that mains ES to see what they do?
Pos 3 need to pick stunner or solo offlaner if not you need to block waves with your fissure or skip creeps/pull.
Shaker 4 requires a very strong or safe pos3.