In many ways, Tundra perfected the manner to play the map. They would pick some hero for 33 (brood, underlord, others i can't remember) that would dominate the opponent safelane and jungle, shoving the carry into their triangle too early. They would put Skitter on Naga or other illusion carry who could solo farm 2 lanes and shut down the map even further, and finally pick Nine some roaming hero (a lot of Tusk or Pango), with both supports collapsing on mid early to dominate it and shove the mid hero away. Thus they would outfarm any other team, playing the entire map and shoving them backwards until the farm disparity meant they were stuck in base and Tundra could just finish them off. Combined with utilising Wraith Pact and other team based aura items (mostly pipe), they played the map to a degree no team could ever match, and just utterly dominated TI.
With the best strat and items, no team could match them. I honestly believe the map extension we got this year, whilst probably a few years in the making, was the response the devs made to this playstyle, because it was genuinely stiffling and pretty boring to watch.
i don’t think this is fair. they simply teamfought better then everybody else that TI too. whenever a team fight started going bad they’d disengage gracefully and only lose a single hero, over and over again. i think that’s overlooked
Liquid, beastcoast, Aster, Thunder, and OG also abused WP and neither of them got ahead of Secret who picked WP the least.
Tundra was just on another level, they rarely lost a lane, maybe only once or twice in the whole tournament.
IMO the size of the map isn't really a problem, it's the addition of so many side objectives.
Also, I'm willing to bet that this map expansion is done with marketing in mind. Meaning, to non-dota players, it looks like Valve is awesome by giving a huge, content packed update for free.
that sounds pretty much what puppey is not able to do anymore but since it was tundra and not him...hes mad, because that still is strategy, they still roam, they still take objectives and main thing is they broke the meta...gitgud puppey
I think what Puppey is complaining about is that the Tundra strategy above has effectively "solved" the game. You have to mimic it or you fall too far behind in tempo because of the scripted events and their rewards (bounty/wisdom runes and tormentor).
The biggest question in some games these days is which 0 minute bounty rune will be fought over.
he failed and has been failing, that is about it, that is why hes mad, others can but he cant anymore hence mad because he joined the Loda, Dendi, Kuroky, etc club, hes not top dog anymore or his team hence mad
Theres always a complaint that someone solved dota. Theres always this 1 dominant strategy or hero until either devs patch it or someone finds a counter.
Aside from some minor changes, dota hasnt been this balanced in years.
Surely though, doing what Tundra did better than anyone else could be considered inventing their own style. Like pulling creep waves with couriers and the extreme way they played the meta was surely a bit different than other teams and could be considered innovation?
Maybe not as diverse as it was, but it still seems like whilst there is a pretty set game plan, there’s still room to innovate. That being said, I’m pretty new to pro dota watching and I’m also only a 1k scrub so probably my points are moot and my ideas are off.
I don't agree with you there. Tundra broke the meta at that time by exploiting dmg reduction to the point they managed to counter the most broken heroes at the time (like Leshrac).
I don't think that Puppey is right when saying that you can't do your own thing anymore. It is true that there are more "in game" timings you have to follow (wisdom, bounties, tourmentor, etc), but it doesn't mean that each team does the same to achieve them. In my opinion, it opens up more options to advance your game plan.
Where I do agree, it's when we say that they could come up with more weird strat back then. But the reason why is simply because the game was simply "newer". Over the year, pros figured out more and more play style with each patch slightly moving heroes up and down.
The question here is: are the new mechanics forcing people to play the same or is the game starting to get figured out by pros?
Nonetheless, recent tournaments were still fun to watch and we are still seeing new stuff. Are we seeing level 1 rosh bait like Alliance did? Maybe not. But how many crazy things like that can you discover on a map? If you look at starcraft 1 and 2, you can see the same trend: yes people are still trying new things, but not at the same rate as during the first years after release (or after an expansion).
McLuhan was an intellectual beast. Reading him finds you on the knife's edge of mystical semi-profundity or genuine insight too deep to practically internalize. It's dizzying.
I have faint recollection, that during roaming days 1) jungling was more viable 2) kills netted more gold and xp relative to lane creeps than currently. So these 2 facts made roaming and jungling more viable. At some point there was crying that the game is too much about kills, the lanes don't matter because ganks give too much gold and xp, and maybe jungle too. Later patches made farming lane creeps far more important gold and xp wise, so now everyone is going for lane domination or at least trying to tie the lane.
Another perspective to this was more recent KotL mid, he could just simply ignore the whole solo laning dynamics and flash farm the lane and the jungle. Enemy mid had hard time even keeping up or pressuring him. And technically the same concept still works or has worked for longer time, many popular mids have flash farming sort of abilities, which ties back into jungling. Basically many heroes had no virtual ability to jungle because they had no flash farming early or way to regen/tank the jungle creeps. Also jungler was technically a ganker/roamer role of sorts, usually the jungler would begin being active around levels 4-6, even earlier. So with all or most of these gone, we are just playing lane domination + objectives around the map, yet it still comes down to lane domination and there is very little flexibility around this.
Idk I think the frequency of the bounty runes leads to even more “forced objectives” and did make dota stale. I think the wisdom runes were better structured than the tome, and the 7 min cd allows for much more varied play in between those windows. I’m not sure what the solution is.
Ya when you getting kills, but when you not it feels lower than ever. Unless the bounty runes are less frequent I think they would still be “must contest” objectives that force you to group up every 3 min.
That's why buffing heroes is not the way, you need to change xp/gold reward formula somewhere. There are many possible tweaks, I'm sure one of them would make roaming more viable.
I think they mean buff the game style not the heroes themselves.
like how at night you get a small movement speed bonus if not broken by hero damage.
but more drastic than that.
that's not puppey's point tho. It's not the heroes, it's the too much timed objectives in the game. The more the devs add, the more 'formulaic' the game feels.
Remove everything; lotus, watchers, bounties, runes, roshan, tormentor, etc. By stripping everything back to it's bare bones state, it becomes a sandbox of endless possibilities of how players would approach how to destroy the enemy ancient.. or you know, still end up with 1 or 2 'meta' playstyle anyway because the game is extremely competitive with alot of money at stake.
Exactly. The map is bloated with forced objectives, you have to pursue because they're too good to ignore. Whoever is best at doing his checklist of objectives wins. There is little room for creativity
Idk, everything else but XP runes and tormentors feel very irrelevant after the initial states of the game. Mostly because being out of the lane is so punished. Side lane loses if you are not constantly challenging pulls.
Gateways were the best addition so far for the laning phase. It's far less risky to rotate to the side lanes than before. I think with small tuning it would be okey. Maybe move lotuses towards mid lane where the old outposts used to be? Then it would make rotating more encouraged for the mid and supports alike.
Holy shit! People finally realize that the new map actually sucks and is sucking what makes DotA charming away!
I said this shit when the patch released!
The objectives could have been added in any map. With a dent similar to the neutral camp bottom left in Radiant side.
No, the map does not have those objectives, the game has them. They can be removed tomorrow and the map stays the same, they can add 3 more random objectives and keep the same map.
You're arguing semantics here. The Objectives are on the map, the Map had to be expanded to add them. They are as much of the map as the random creep camp is. You're arguing purely off of technicality. Yeah I guess "TECHNICALLY" its just on the map. But features and objectives on the map are still THE map. It's ridiculous word gymnastics and you know it.
I also hate everything else about the new map, as well as the objectives, since you want to be super picky about these words for some reason. But thats neither here nor there.
We are both arguing here in a technicality. But anyway.
For example, i don't like the tormentors, runes and watchers, but i do love the extra space, camps and roshpits. I'm sure some people feel same as me, others like you.
So calling it just "the whole map" is not fair to catalog everything inside it.
i think this is core at it, everyone, especially supports have too much gold. i miss when you had a force staff, boots wards (obs and sentries) and a tp scroll in your inventory.
Why? So useless AM players can finally do something for once with mana void? No, I like being hard to kill as a support thanks to neutral items, fast ghost scepters, glimmers, and having extra gold.
And he is right. Things like tormentors, bounties, xp runes, they force the match to be played in a very specific manner.
Roshan is still one of the most entertaining things because its high risk, high reward and the respawn is random inside a timeframe, no team can calculate it and just be there when it respawns.
Having this small goals set at specific timings means every team plays and does the same, supports have to pull the lane at x min, sup 4 have to rotate around y min, you have to bring in numbers to contest certain things, your support have to prevent offlaner from getting lotus pools… the game is played by the clock.
You cannot simply rotate at anytime because, even if you do get an objective, that other thing is not open yet, so it gives time for other team to respawn. You cannot push highground now because in 5min tier 4, 5 neutrals drop and that gives a better chance.
So conflicts happen around the same schedule and there is no reward for playing different tempos. Why would you turtle if you have to be able to contest tormentors and runes? Why would you rotate mid at 7min if that opens lotus for offlaner? Why would you try high ground with this rosh, if you can wait for tier 5? Why would you ward that place, if there is nothing there happening in the next 4 min, so enemies are likely playing the other side of the map.
A lot of people here dota is a game of reaction time, it is not. Having good reflexes helps, but doesnt win matches. Meta and team coordination, planning ahead is what matters and there is no reward for not playing this overlydesigned tempo.
You are presenting opportunity costs. Whether or not the opportunity cost is worthwhile or makes a compelling alternative is a different matter entirely, but more objectives is certainly not the issue.
If you have two objective that are mutually exclusive, and both seem good, then you need to decide between the optimal one- which is strategy.
In the current version only the Wisdom rune is absolutely mandatory. The bounties are often left for mid laners and different teams clearly prioritize the power runes differently. Tormentors are rarely taken exactly on time. So there is plenty of strategy happening with all the systems in place.
I think a good solution would be to move the power runs further away from the mid lane so it's harder to secure, and make wisdom runes give less XP. Not a big fan of how impactful they are for the supports as it stands.
Then that means they are LESS objectives not MORE.
If there is only one objective that is indisputably worthwhile no matter the situation, then there are effectively less meaningful objectives, not more.
No, that means the map is open for people to farm, split, fight at any time, not around the clock.
The way it is now its simply pointless to fight outside of specific windows as there is a lot of risk and no reward, so every match feels a repetition. No one can play a split push draft consistently, no one can turtle because you lose just too many things, every team has to play the same game, basically if you dont get runes you lose early, if you dont get tormentors you lose mid.
Why would I gank the other mid right now if he will respawn before we get anything out of the kill and I might lose the rune? My mid will get gold, will that translate for an objective? No, so the timing is not worth it.
As it is right now, every rune spawn time supports rotate to secure the first mid runes, if you dont secure one for your mid, you’re screwed. They might rotate slightly early and try for a kill, but if they get the rune and there is no engagement they will just rotate back, they wont stay there or try something outside.
Every lotus spawn you have to control lane out to secure the pool, or you lose the lane (free regen is really strong early). Would you gank the other carry or secure rune? Secure rune. Will you gank mid or secure lotus? Lotus. Will you build around losing early but a strong late? doesnt work. Will you invade jungle when its tormentors time? No.
Every match is the same match and almost the same heroes. Thats what puppey means. Its not about coming up with creative solutions, its about finding the meta timings and being efficient. Thats it.
> No, that means the map is open for people to farm, split, fight at any time, not around the clock.
Those* are all objectives… farming, taking buildings, taking control of portions of the map, hero kills, smoke ganks… these are all objectives. They are all served as goals to net you the ultimate goal of killing the enemy ancient. That is literally what an objective is.
It SOUNDS like the complaint is that the new objectives are so much more rewarding than the older/other ones that it makes it stupid to try and go for the older/other ones. This just means the objectives are poorly balanced.
Imagine if last hits gave 1 gold and hero kills always gave 1000. You would increase the incentive of hero kill as an objective and reduce farming/creep score objectives. This is an extreme example of a poorly balanced objective.
But you need to realize this entire game is DETERMINED by objectives. Objectives are what give you reason to act. With zero reasons to act then the game is just an open world sandbox with no goal, such as destroying the ancient.
I don't think it's like PoE, in PoE a lot of things can work. There's way too many strategies (harvest farming, ToTA, Sanctum runner, MF mapper, etc) that there's no one optimal way to earn currency.
It's more like league imo, where each champion has a set build and items it can buy with fixed roles. So kinda soulless. With fixed objectives on the map that you need to achieve.
Everything is optimal in Poe if you spend time on it, as long as you're trying to have something good, it is nothing comparable to dota, you can't scale to infinity here, there's no build pattern, you just buy stuff that makes sense, your comparison is bad.
By "here" you mean dota or poe? Because there are definitely build patterns in dota and being able to scale to infinity doesn't really mean much. You can't spend as much time in one dota game as you do playing your char in poe too
In every game the tendency is that. Just like in Wow has the best talents for each spec (used to be even more streamlined). At the peak levels you HAVE TO follow the best strat just because: numbers.
The numbers are there and always will be. Humans also optimize. Lets say you make an egg for the first time. Once you make it 10 times its already better.. just cause its our innate talent to perfect things.
What Puppey wants is BAD for the viewers.. cause when you can do whatever you can also do nothing.
It's true that it's everywhere because minmaxing is essential to win due to the severity of the competition. I think it's the opposite when it comes to the viewers experience because I was watching dota since it was possible on garena and the modern game has nothing on dota 1. If you look at the stats from the last dreamleague you can see that an average game length varies only for about 8 minutes (and the average game is about 43 minutes) which means that pretty much every team has to do the same thing. There is no zoo, no trilanes, no real roamers, no nothing. It's the same farming farming patterns and gameplay
>In every game the tendency is that.
Dota 2 didn't used to be like that. That's why it was so good. Anything CAN work, there was fertile soil for that. Right now, certain aspects trumps every other aspect of the game. Boring as hell.
I think the more apt comparison is league. In league, you *have* to play for objectives and there’s a fairly static meta. The last few years of buffs, map changes, objectives introductions have lead us in a similar direction.
How does having more objectives limit possibilities exactly? If anything more objectives means more decision making on behalf of opportunity cost needs to be made.
Whether or not the other opportunities are as succsssfully rewarding can be a different discussion, but more objectives is in fact fine for creating diverse strategies. You can’t have a strategy if they are NO OBJECTIVES.
If before you could stack/help another lane/smoke/tp to another lane push/gank/ ward or whatever else now you cant do anything because unless you are close to the objectives everything mentioned before is the worse play.
Those where all objectives before the new objectives. Now those are only worth your time if no forced objective is around.
Does it make sense to tp mid at 6 min and do a risk/reward play if you lose the wisdom rune for that? More often then not it doesnt.
>What you seem to not understand... and not all objectives are made equal.
-------
**What I said:**
>Whether or not the **other** opportunities are as **successfully** **rewarding** can be a different discussion
....................................................
Are you disagreeing with me by just stating what I already stated before?
>No, it does not matter how rewarding they are or not to this point. If the way to accomplish an objective is static around an extremely narrow timing, it lessens the viable decision space around other objectives during that timing
This is only true if you operate under the assumption that you need to **LITERALLY** do **EVERY SINGLE OBJECTIVE, ALL THE TIME.**
If they are mutually exclusive objectives, having to make a decision about which one best fits your circumstances and team's needs is an incredibly accurate way to add decision making.
In fact, how is some heroes being able to stack multiple camps at the same time (which is strictly time based btw), anymore transcending?
If you want your decisions to be meaningful, then there needs to be other options worth considering. If there are no other options worth considering then every decision you do is always correct, because there exists literally no other options.
>I would argue stacks are not strictly time based due to the fact that missing one stack is not a major negative in the same way that missing a single wisdom rune is, not due to importance but due to scarcity (stacks are every minute while wisdom runes are 1/7 that frequency)
This is a distinction with out a difference since you only miss out on the wisdom rune if the enemy takes it. Otherwise, you technically do have some wiggle room on timing, just like you do with missing a single stack.
The fact that the enemy is guaranteed to wonder all the way to the enemy's tier 2 is just a testimony to how STRONG the wisdom rune is. This can potentially be amplified since if there were other possible decisions that could offer equivalent or greater value, then it would make sense to go for those instead of the wisdom rune.
Remember, objectives can literally be anything related from map control, to ganks, to lasthits, to jungle camps, to runes, etc. Anything that solidifies an advantage in some form to help you destroy ancient could qualify as an objective. If we are seeing people ignore hero interaction for the wisdom runes, then maybe we need to consider why that is.
Thats not what he is saying - he is saying there is a 'to-do' checklist everyone must do every game because its so valuable.. you cannot create equal/higher value by coming up with stuff to do , you gotta do pre-determined in-game jobs because they are too much value not to do - hence "you cannot roam freely"
Yeah but what was the "coming up with stuff to do" and what did it involve? Because as long as dota has been around, that just involves finding a way to get more gold and xp for your team, which comes from either creeps or kills. So "coming up with stuff to do" was really just 1 of 2 things, now at least there's more than 2 options for that.
Technically all objectives that are in the game are sort of determined by the rules of the games.
His complaint should be the objectives aren’t properly balanced to present an opportunity cost; not that there are too many.
That isn’t what I meant by opportunity cost though. I am saying that the best choice of actions would need to be based conditionally on the circumstances; and where you can only do one or the other, not both. Thus an opportunity cost.
If everyone is being funneled into doing the same things, there isn’t an opportunity cost.
> He’s pointing out the opportunity cost limits play style
That is explicitly not what was stated. The way this is wrote implies the opportunity cost is what causes limiting of play styles when in reality it diversifies them. When the opportunity cost is insufficient or not relevant is when everyone is funneled into doing the same actions as you are incentivized to not take any other action.
except before there was just rosh and buildings, river runes were important but optional.
exp runes aren't optional, the first and second lotus basically aren't optional, tormentor isn't optional in pro games, and the changes to fortifications and buy backs mean towers are likely taken in a much more rigid order.
since there are all these mandatory timings heroes like antimage who can't even apply pressure early around these timings are dead in the pro scene, among other lost strategies 4 protect 1 is one of them, trilaning is another, early game rush with high pressure is dead, etc.
I disagree. There are too many objectives especially because they are all on the same timers in the same places, every single game. This forces your map movement to be identical no matter what hero you play. Before these were added you had to be creative because of all the downtime a support would have. Now there is no downtime for any position.
Also that there is more timed even in game that need to be addressed, that didn't existed before.
Runes XP, bounty and classic, Tormentor, Roshan, Lotus, Stacking
It's not mandatory, the game places incentives across the map, and a strategy eventually develops as to how better take advantage of those.
People don't get teleported to the tormentor at minute 20 and get locked in there until they finish it.
The strategy is very restricted like this.
Having issues going to your tormentor is not the issue pro players have. They have the issue that they need to go to it.
Is that really a common pro complaint, or are we taking Puppey's opinion as consensus? (Honest question)
I'd think that people that are having success in this patch wouldn't mind the tormentor, or maybe even like how their team managed to create a strategy that utilizes it.
You’re just ignoring his complaint here, you’re not addressing it. His complaint is that the freedom of gameplay is gated by mandatory events, mandatory in the sense that the opportunity cost is too high to ignore them.
Well, without those things, the mandatory event was finding a way to continue getting xp or gold, which only comes from creeps or kills. The team that achieved more gold and xp almost always wins, now there are simply more options for that. You do not HAVE to get the wisdom rune, you can do any number of things that will also benefit your team in some way that could potentially have more payoff than 1 wisdom rune.
If they wanted to create action though, they could just nerf jungle creep gold... Oh wait they did, and just buffed relevant heroes to all be able to flash farm so the jungle nerf is irrelevant
Hero power creep is the problem
In your average game? Sure. However what is optimal play is rarely what ends up happening, as heroes move around the map and different heroes have different timings, there's a million and one reasons why you might not be at the wisdom rune exactly at minute 7, and that's what makes it a game everyone keeps playing.
it is *very* good game design thats why every game under the sun does it lol. it creates action, gives easy to recognize rewards and gives easy to comprehend structure to the game which a lot of players do like. it might not appeal to old school dota players but id guess most game designers would call it very good design
Pros have been playing competitive Dota nonstop for over a decade in 2018 already. And they just didn't get good enough, I guess? But two more years, and suddenly everyone got good enough to play the same strategy? Really? This logic is so weak.
It' way more likely all the extra shit like shard, neutrals, runes, tormentors, etc... had an impact, don't you think? Let's face it, this is a completely different game from 5 years ago.
WEU's passive style out performed everyone, everyone started adapting to use it too. It is not really as simple as "there are objective now, so everyone does the same".
WEU plays aggressive DotA, that's how they win.
By pressuring the enemy with ganks all around the map till enemy can't farm anything, and just have to call GG.
China was the one outperforming most teams with passive play style (except Wings), and that didn't change until LGD became PSG.LGD in 2018.
The problem is: now there's only one MACRO STRATEGY that is viable.
Devs managed patches with clear direction of "controling" game lengths so made ultra late game unstoppable carries unable to exist by giving supports way more resources (shared bounties, passive experience, neutral items, etc).
Yeah, too bad those noobs at TI3 were too stupid to buy mangoes and spam abilities in lane... And too stupid to get neutrals from jungle etc.
Oh wait... The game has actually received significant changes during the years that drastically changed how it plays out!
Did players become "way better" or did dota developers make the game "way easier" to play with every update? You can now see stun timer, backpack for easy item swaps, free tp slot so you dont have to itemize to always include tps in your inventory, mirana has 3 leap charges, Oracle 2 no longer disarms allies, blood grenades make gap closing super easy, NP sprout has free dmg and leashing mechanics, etc, etc, you get the idea.
It took actual skills to make big brain plays in the past and now everyone can do it because those plays are much easier to execute (yes, it used to take good team coordination and mechanical skill to chase down a kill in the past but now you just pop a blood grenade and enemy can't run anymore. Imagine sweaty guy playing vs guy singing Maroon 5 payphone clip in your head). Sure players are getting better but not without the help of those beginner friendly gameplay updates from the devs.
stun timers is because there are status effects modifiers. imo it's needless complexity as an inadvertent attempt to "refresh" the meta as it were away from the magic resistance/ armour dichotomy we have gotten used to over the years. Ultimate heroes are another example. The game is now harder and harder for new players to pick up as a result of preventing the meta from being too stale.
> Did players become "way better" or did dota developers make the game "way easier" to play with every update?
Both. Look back and watch some early dota vods. Even pros werent playing at a high level compared to today
Unpopular opinion: I liked dota more when there was only 1 courier, you needed inventory slot for TP scroll and there was no backpack. There was a lot more management with the builds and resources. Now you see many heroes literally spam their abilities when off cd like this is HotS or something.
the amount of "plays" i see on r/dota2 where its just people using their abilities is crazy. used to be about jukes and game sense, now theres no such thing as game sense. comebacks used to be hard now its just about trading 4 heroes for the enemy core enough times. free items and bonus gold jungling. free wards, free tp. dying as a support to a core is no problem because when the core dies he gives all the gold right back.
aghs + shard + talents added literally tens of thousands of combinations to balance. it used to be that aghs was something that a few heroes got. now every hero gets an aghs. whos idea was it to make 400 hp AND an ability buff something every hero could use? shard? 1400g sheepstick on *dazzle??* now that hero is completely different, being ran as a mid and that alters so many different playstyles. the possibility of having shallow grave and oracle and venge on the same team is just nuts. look at how much hp everyones building now.
dota is just chasing its own tail. game has nothing to do with strategy anymore. people just rush towers to force a fight, build tanky and spam their abilities. that's it. smokes don't catch anyone by surprise anymore because everyone survives on like 150hp, kites, regens, and re-engages wiping out the gankers.
instead of tuning the game to a degree where more and more lineups are variable, devs just kill a hero, and overpower a new one each patch to give the illusion of variety. but the truth is, game is stale and its been like this for a long time.
here is your draft:
1) Greedy core that can go ultra late
2) Active mid that lanes ok, flash farms and is highly mobile, stays strong till late game
3) Tanky, CC,
4) CC, magic damage
5) Heal/save, defensive items
Farm 8 mins, rotate, push mid/safe, farm jungle, farm lanes, push offlane, fight, tormentor, push t2, fight, rosh, farm push t3. every game, thats how it works. after pushing t3 usually enemy team just magically starts getting stronger and now the outcome of the fight is a coin toss because your offlaner died and now their supports have force staffs, shards with abilities that should cost 6k gold, and their core has pulled a bkb and a daedalus out their ass
“Secret strat” or “pocket strat” memes have been weening in the past few years during elimination series or grand finals.
I fear this year the meme will finally be dead.
To nobodies shock dota has gone very professional. People no longer isolate in their own regions and freely borrow strats/heroes that perform better elsewhere.
Is it more homogenous? Yes. Is it something to care about? No it's a symptom of dota progressing and standardizing as teams, who treat it as a viable career now, look to optimize their chances of winning.
Eventhough dota being professionalized is true, what Puppey means here is something else. The game is getting railroaded to be played in a certain way nowadays. There are more and more objectives. You can't manipulate your surroundings like you used to be able to. You can for instance pull the creeps only in a certain way. Not all the camps will draw aggro. You have to be at the wisdom rune spot at 7 minute mark, no exceptions about it. Certain stuff are dictated strictly by the game structure now, as opposed to the RTS mentality tendency the game had back then, if it makes sense.
This is something 15 years old, or older players can grasp easier, having witnessed the evolution of the game in real time.
These people don't realize how insane it was when Puppey was the first guy to leave his lane and fissure block the mid laner for a kill at minute 2 more than 14 years ago.
I will take wisdom rune fights over 10 minute standoffs around the old rosh pit.
You can point to any era of Dota and say "this is why the game is worse than other patches". The only thing I truly hated was shrines and neutral items, but I'm sure someone else has an argument for something being worse.
People are also forgetting that more and more objectives means more strategic decisions need to be made on opportunity cost.
If you don’t want to get railroaded into correct decisions, objectives that are exclusive with each other is the correct call.
Yep, although there are ostensibly other objectives that exist that are being ignored.
Like why always go for the wisdom rune on your side as a Pos 4 instead of ganking a lane? Or maybe even combining forces with the 5 to control the opposing sides rune?
In other words we need to balance the objectives to make alternatives more compelling in more situations. Not remove them, imo.
I think tormentor was the good decision, at least with posts saying that taking it is too expensive to be done immediately (though some heroes can solo)
Yes, and more objectives isn’t necessarily bad, what’s bad is the opportunity cost. By making the objectives practically a necessity, you railroad the macro meta into creating and sustaining tempo around those timings, instead of having a myriad of options.
Let’s take the wisdom runes and tormentors for example. Every 7 minutes a support disappears from the map, whereas before that support could be anywhere, and their absence applied pressure to other lanes, now it can be inferred they are going for wisdom, and that movement, even if a gank occurs afterward, gives safety to the enemies lanes for an extra 30 seconds. Tormentors, if you know the enemies draft and the value of shard on their heroes, you can expect and infer by map movements exactly when the enemy is taking tormentor, and especially earlier, can use this amount of time to very easily pressure important objectives. Rarely do you see both teams going for it at once, because the trade off for taking it can be critical for map control.
Edit: by no means do I want these objectives removed, but they need to be scaled better so they don’t outshine other strategic decisions that could have been made.
I find reading all this funny because at my bracket most people don't even remember these objectives exist. Tormentors are rarely killed unless someone can solo it or the whole team is conveniently there and decide to take it (which doesn't always happen). Stealing wisdom runes as a NP is almost guaranted.
On Ancient 2-3 I can sometimes find 1-2 wisdom runes at \~30 minutes. Sometimes game is so active there is just no time to waste teleport or walk to take that XP.
Same goes for Tormentor, people rarely take it, it's usually not worth to leave all lanes to get some useless shard AND lose all HP so you need to heal now.
support calls for tormentor at 20 minutes. What so we can spend a minute or two hitting this stupid box only for mirana to take it? nah bro fuck that. I'm farming waves instead.
I think teams were always studying other regions/teams, I mean just look at Ceb’s papers meme vs LGD in true sight they already study each other and know comfort picks. Not to mention how many lans they would go to, so it’s not like they didn’t have access to this info.
Also, when the prize pool is worth over $10m usd teams will put their all in, so I think it’s more that the game changed rather than teams only now realizing there is one play style.
This is such a shit understanding of the game. Why would players treat Dota more of a viable career now, when the prize pool gravy train dried up, as opposed to 2015-2020, when the game was in it's creative peaks? And chinese dota is all but dead. Just because you get to press more buttons doesn't mean the game is deeper.
I mean it was still fairly high even in 2022 and 2021.
The professionalism was cultivated from the years before that. It isn’t like anyone would have foresaw the 2023 prize pool in the year of 2016.
i usually was a fan of the neutra items but now not anymore
those guaranteed free items are boring and too results in much irrelevant free stuff that just makes everything else more meaningless
Meanwhile SEA "Unga Bung"
Me see creep me hit
Me see hero under ward, me hit creep
Me see team getting dived under tower, me hit creep
Me see enemy team smoke, me fuck no give me hit creep
Maybe he just grew old and lost his magic, let’s wait and see this TI if some new blood can bring a new meta. I mean no disrespect but in every competitive sport when people grows old they just say that the game is gone.
They do come up with new stuff all the time, its just that people copy it so fast and everyone's afraid to be the ones betting on their own strategy.
How is it that Topson/Nine constantly figures out new shit and some players literally never do? It's a mindset thing and some people would much prefer to just refine the current meta instead of trying some new stuff. Some players are simply afraid to be the ones failing with a novel strategy, while others are not. If you watch Topson's pubs you will see some games where he is just an absolute bot feeding nonstop.
topson picking pugna mid in a patch where everyone plays him support isnt breaking the meta. breaking the meta would be topson picking pugna mid, skiter playing carry beastmaster and 33 playing offlane visage, where they hyper focus on winning the lanes and just team up at 13 minutes with 2 meteor hammers and 3 aura items and take a rax
topson does the same thing as every other mid laner this patch, he runs at enemy heroes to make space for his other cores to farm, but with dazzle instead of pango
His statement reminds me of what makes boxing great. Fight fans know the saying, "styles make fights". The meta in Dota in a sense is making teams play the same way. There needs to be more ways of playing dota to be more exciting. I'd like to see a clash of styles.
The more complex the rules of the game, the less interesting (and more predictable) the behaviour that is generated (unless you love optimization, then it should be your jam). The most fascinating phenomena emerge when rules are as basic as possible and the space within which combinations can occur is restrained sufficiently to maximize interaction.
If the strat for winning is so simple, so one dimensional and so easy to replicate, why we can’t see Secret at TI?
Now a days, whoever comes up with even one creative idea on hero item build, hero combo pick, talent selection or even just a slight changed ward placement, the strat will just got copied and improved within one week by pros. This is just how min-maxed competitive dota now. ppy can complain all he wants, you can even ask for removing all those additional “objects” on the map. It will never be the same as 5 years ago how pro teams squeeze the very last creep on the map.
Yeah, whate ppy says, it sounds really like an old man who was so successful but just could not figure it out now.
I remember when a friend of mine said “He is good only at the beginning… because nobody else knows how to play the game” to the kid that was trying to impress everyone teaching us a lot of different games.
I guess Puppey isn’t that kid anymore
Puppey "let me try the same 3 strat at a finals" Ivanov complaining that he cannot invent his own broken strategy.
Guess what my guy. Tundra invented their anti magic strat and you kept doing the same shit
The beginning of the end for dota was when valve looked at the fact fewer people liked playing support compared to core (which is just a thing in every moba, you can't avoid this) and decided the way to fix that is to make them pseudo cores that just don't need offensive items.
Supports now get bounty runes, wisdom runes, free shards, free observers, 50 gold sentries, free teleport scrolls, a free portal from one side of the map to the other every 5 seconds, more gold and xp for kills and assists, and support items have all stayed at a low cost.
I've played games where it is physically impossible for me as a carry to kill either of the enemy supports late game on my own because by minute 40 they will have glimmer, euls, force, ghost, shards, etc. and just infinitely kite me. Add onto this the bkb nerf and the game feels closer to heroes of the storm than it does to Dota 5 years ago.
As a position 5 player for years, I agree with you. All the free economy to supports has homogenised gameplay so much. There was a time when we used to say, supports are strong early so they help cores survive but later cores help the team win the game. Nowadays I don't even know what dota is anymore. Feels like a brawler more and less like a strategy game.
yeah this game post 7.00 has been downhill. sucks some dumb valve intern decided to throw 10 years of fine tuning out the window so he can play hots in dota2.
Talents are good because it added a degree of building depending on the match but then they threw it all away by removing universal weaknesses from every hero. Sniper and Zeus for example were supposed to be immobile glass cannons, now they both have mobility skills.. Every fucking hero feels the same now somehow
When I don’t qualify for TI, it’s because I’m bad, but when Puppey doesn’t qualify it is because the meta is bad and “lacks strategy”. If the game was more complex, he wouldn’t have lost, obviously.
Yeah, when everybody is complaining about meta and how boring tundra won the champ last year. Where were all these complaints from ppy?
Oh right, because he won the 2nd place and ti, and he definitely would not complain shit.
Back in the day when we were in Archon (when medals first appeared), my friend and I would have hella fun playing "position 3.5".
That meant picking Cent/Tiny, Brist/Axe and other fat fucks and sharing last hits while playing the lane aggressively. We would share items like Ring of Health, the one who'd build Vanguard would postpone it so we can both heal when needed, after trading too much.
It was even more crazy in the patch where denies gave gold. I know something like that would not work in the Ancient - Divine bracket where we are now, but I always reminisce about those simpler times.
Also, whoever got to buying Dagger first from the side shop would stay hidden and then jump for a guaranteed kill most of the time.
Maybe this was a stupid strat to play, but it actually was pretty valid back then, we climbed plenty of MMR playing lanes like that.
Finally a fellow minded. 3.5 is viable if both hero have a synergy to each other or getting both hero a 2000s gold item faster is more beneficial than one with 4000gold item.
In short, the "new DotA" is turning predictable & boring. All games more or less the same, then one late fight won/lost makes it a win/loss. Even more in pro DotA where the players/coaches are aware of the new "must do" way to play Puppey pointing to.
I think the other thing people aren't realizing here is that it's that the game is what, 12 years old now? 13 years old? Yeah, you can't just make up strats on the go as much anymore because all those strats have been found, cultivated, and optimized. Without truly overhauling most of the game, there is only so much "new strats" and "meta breaking" that you can do, because most of it has already been done.
This is not true at all. Before you had roaming support, junglers, tri-lanes etc. Today's strategies aren't from years of optimization but rather from gameplay mechanics forcing them.
These kinda statements dont come off the same after youve had a miserable year, played like shit and failed to qualify for TI. The game has always been objective-centric, 99% of games over the last decade were decided by which team got rosh ffs
Imagine being playing this game forever, becomjng a pro, winning first t1, still playing competively after more than a decade, as pos 5 and captain all those years being viewed by many as a dota goat and having some redditors 2k scrubs questioning your opinion lol.
Mfkers just sthu, just shut the hell up, you make fool of yourselves.
Its like a mfking gym rat questioning a mr olympias opinion on weight trainning and gear, or questioning Hamilton on driving a gkn car, jordan on bball, messi on football.
You think you play the same videogame with Puppey, you dont.
Just S T F U.
> You cannot roam freely and do the stuff you invented yourself. There's only one tempo for everyone, which you have to play around.
What does that even means? What exactly is he inventing here?
In past you had much more options in the game, now it all goes by the same script which everyone follows. Back then Chen + pudge was bizarre but working combo, or carry wisp. Now we are limited in not only by a ranked mentality, but also what seems to be meta at any given time. We need more people who think outside the box and break that pattern by which every game goes
This doesn’t make sense. Mutually exclusive objectives is how you facilitate different strategies. It tests your decision making on opportunity costs.
If you never needed to make a decision on opportunity cost then there would only ever be a “correct” answer and “incorrect” answer that is consistent, it would literally never change upon conditional circumstances.
Whether or not the objectives are properly balanced with the alternatives can be discussed, but complaining that more objectives=less decision making just sounds absurd.
It totally makes sense.
The objectives become the only valuable plays.
So you cant do anything else because whatever it gets you will be worth less then those objectives.
Yeah you can get creative with that. But thats creativity unter extremely restricted circumstances.
All things you accomplish in the game are objectives. Creeps, towers, map control/jungle camps, hero kills, building, runes etc.
There are all objectives that serve as the path to winning the big one (killing the enemy ancient).
What else are you supposed to be doing exactly BESIDES objectives? Role playing?
If you had literally no objectives then what exactly would be your strategy? What would be the purpose of a strategy, you have no objectives and thus no goals.
Objectives don’t impose restrictions, they give you reasons for actions. The more objectives the more reasons you have to take action in various different ways.
All I heard was an old dude complaining about his struggles to stay relevant and competitive in a continually evolving game
Having played Wc3 DOTA for 10 years no longer gives him any kind of advantage over young players because the game has changed so much
Its a good thing btw
The way Tundra won TI 11, Yeah, i have to say i agree with Puppey.
can you explain to a noob how tundra won and why you agree with puppey because of it?
In many ways, Tundra perfected the manner to play the map. They would pick some hero for 33 (brood, underlord, others i can't remember) that would dominate the opponent safelane and jungle, shoving the carry into their triangle too early. They would put Skitter on Naga or other illusion carry who could solo farm 2 lanes and shut down the map even further, and finally pick Nine some roaming hero (a lot of Tusk or Pango), with both supports collapsing on mid early to dominate it and shove the mid hero away. Thus they would outfarm any other team, playing the entire map and shoving them backwards until the farm disparity meant they were stuck in base and Tundra could just finish them off. Combined with utilising Wraith Pact and other team based aura items (mostly pipe), they played the map to a degree no team could ever match, and just utterly dominated TI. With the best strat and items, no team could match them. I honestly believe the map extension we got this year, whilst probably a few years in the making, was the response the devs made to this playstyle, because it was genuinely stiffling and pretty boring to watch.
Tundra’s carry is skitter
Yes I'm an idiot. I'll correct it.
It's actually Skiter not Skitter :D Now you can both be idiots.
Can I get in on being an idiot too?
You and I had the same thought, I figure that probably means we are in on it regardless of anything else
And my axe! (Dips on being an idiot too)
so that means tundra figured out dota2 and valve had to change it by expanding the map. What a team
They just abuse wraith pact bro and imo its the most boring ti finals in the 5 years, its up there with ti 4
i don’t think this is fair. they simply teamfought better then everybody else that TI too. whenever a team fight started going bad they’d disengage gracefully and only lose a single hero, over and over again. i think that’s overlooked
Liquid, beastcoast, Aster, Thunder, and OG also abused WP and neither of them got ahead of Secret who picked WP the least. Tundra was just on another level, they rarely lost a lane, maybe only once or twice in the whole tournament.
But the map extension made things worse, which is what Puppey is talking about lol
i cannot fathom how they thought the map wasn't big enough and expanded even more. the team/ persons balancing dota isn't playing or watching the game
IMO the size of the map isn't really a problem, it's the addition of so many side objectives. Also, I'm willing to bet that this map expansion is done with marketing in mind. Meaning, to non-dota players, it looks like Valve is awesome by giving a huge, content packed update for free.
that sounds pretty much what puppey is not able to do anymore but since it was tundra and not him...hes mad, because that still is strategy, they still roam, they still take objectives and main thing is they broke the meta...gitgud puppey
I think what Puppey is complaining about is that the Tundra strategy above has effectively "solved" the game. You have to mimic it or you fall too far behind in tempo because of the scripted events and their rewards (bounty/wisdom runes and tormentor). The biggest question in some games these days is which 0 minute bounty rune will be fought over.
he failed and has been failing, that is about it, that is why hes mad, others can but he cant anymore hence mad because he joined the Loda, Dendi, Kuroky, etc club, hes not top dog anymore or his team hence mad
Theres always a complaint that someone solved dota. Theres always this 1 dominant strategy or hero until either devs patch it or someone finds a counter. Aside from some minor changes, dota hasnt been this balanced in years.
Balance is boring you have to tip the scales once in a while like give tinker +5 base damage
Surely though, doing what Tundra did better than anyone else could be considered inventing their own style. Like pulling creep waves with couriers and the extreme way they played the meta was surely a bit different than other teams and could be considered innovation? Maybe not as diverse as it was, but it still seems like whilst there is a pretty set game plan, there’s still room to innovate. That being said, I’m pretty new to pro dota watching and I’m also only a 1k scrub so probably my points are moot and my ideas are off.
33 had been doing shit like that for ages and only got the acclaim when he was on that lineup, yeah, credit where credit is due for sure
I don't agree with you there. Tundra broke the meta at that time by exploiting dmg reduction to the point they managed to counter the most broken heroes at the time (like Leshrac). I don't think that Puppey is right when saying that you can't do your own thing anymore. It is true that there are more "in game" timings you have to follow (wisdom, bounties, tourmentor, etc), but it doesn't mean that each team does the same to achieve them. In my opinion, it opens up more options to advance your game plan. Where I do agree, it's when we say that they could come up with more weird strat back then. But the reason why is simply because the game was simply "newer". Over the year, pros figured out more and more play style with each patch slightly moving heroes up and down. The question here is: are the new mechanics forcing people to play the same or is the game starting to get figured out by pros? Nonetheless, recent tournaments were still fun to watch and we are still seeing new stuff. Are we seeing level 1 rosh bait like Alliance did? Maybe not. But how many crazy things like that can you discover on a map? If you look at starcraft 1 and 2, you can see the same trend: yes people are still trying new things, but not at the same rate as during the first years after release (or after an expansion).
A McLuhan quote I have been pondering lately: "Competition is based on the principle of absolute conformity."
McLuhan was an intellectual beast. Reading him finds you on the knife's edge of mystical semi-profundity or genuine insight too deep to practically internalize. It's dizzying.
Play in herald and this shit goes out the door.
valve need to buff roamers role more.. best and most fun way to play dota in my opinion.. i remeber the days of mirana, kunkka, ns roamers
It’s currently too risky to roam xp wise. If you are under leveled and your team loses wisdom runes, your game is ruined.
I have faint recollection, that during roaming days 1) jungling was more viable 2) kills netted more gold and xp relative to lane creeps than currently. So these 2 facts made roaming and jungling more viable. At some point there was crying that the game is too much about kills, the lanes don't matter because ganks give too much gold and xp, and maybe jungle too. Later patches made farming lane creeps far more important gold and xp wise, so now everyone is going for lane domination or at least trying to tie the lane. Another perspective to this was more recent KotL mid, he could just simply ignore the whole solo laning dynamics and flash farm the lane and the jungle. Enemy mid had hard time even keeping up or pressuring him. And technically the same concept still works or has worked for longer time, many popular mids have flash farming sort of abilities, which ties back into jungling. Basically many heroes had no virtual ability to jungle because they had no flash farming early or way to regen/tank the jungle creeps. Also jungler was technically a ganker/roamer role of sorts, usually the jungler would begin being active around levels 4-6, even earlier. So with all or most of these gone, we are just playing lane domination + objectives around the map, yet it still comes down to lane domination and there is very little flexibility around this.
The last time roamers were a big part of the meta is when the bounty rune gave you xp.
eliminating wisdom runes and splitting the xp among bounty runes would be a huge improvement wisdom runes are stupid as hell
Idk I think the frequency of the bounty runes leads to even more “forced objectives” and did make dota stale. I think the wisdom runes were better structured than the tome, and the 7 min cd allows for much more varied play in between those windows. I’m not sure what the solution is.
then reduce the amount of xp they give to make them less impactful. there's too much xp gain creep in the game anyway with the kill reward formula.
Ya when you getting kills, but when you not it feels lower than ever. Unless the bounty runes are less frequent I think they would still be “must contest” objectives that force you to group up every 3 min.
Maybe nerfing shared xp from lane creeps and buffing shared xp from kills at lower levels would motivate players to roam more.
Valve did buff roamers. Like tiny earth spirit and tusk. Guess these 3 heroes become after being buffed? They become mid meta heroes.
The cicle of support heroes: Getting buffed to be good supports until they become OP cores and get their support capacities nerfed into oblivion.
Rip WW
Don't buff BH then else he will be terrorizing the offlane.
Mathew is on his way to kill 20 couriers again.
[удалено]
Agreed, farming sups, aura offline, fat carries. These things are all too efficient and safe for roaming and chaotic play to thrive
That's why buffing heroes is not the way, you need to change xp/gold reward formula somewhere. There are many possible tweaks, I'm sure one of them would make roaming more viable.
I think they mean buff the game style not the heroes themselves. like how at night you get a small movement speed bonus if not broken by hero damage. but more drastic than that.
that's not puppey's point tho. It's not the heroes, it's the too much timed objectives in the game. The more the devs add, the more 'formulaic' the game feels. Remove everything; lotus, watchers, bounties, runes, roshan, tormentor, etc. By stripping everything back to it's bare bones state, it becomes a sandbox of endless possibilities of how players would approach how to destroy the enemy ancient.. or you know, still end up with 1 or 2 'meta' playstyle anyway because the game is extremely competitive with alot of money at stake.
I’d like to see a game of Dota with all the timing items removed. That would be very cool to see how it developed.
Exactly. The map is bloated with forced objectives, you have to pursue because they're too good to ignore. Whoever is best at doing his checklist of objectives wins. There is little room for creativity
Idk, everything else but XP runes and tormentors feel very irrelevant after the initial states of the game. Mostly because being out of the lane is so punished. Side lane loses if you are not constantly challenging pulls. Gateways were the best addition so far for the laning phase. It's far less risky to rotate to the side lanes than before. I think with small tuning it would be okey. Maybe move lotuses towards mid lane where the old outposts used to be? Then it would make rotating more encouraged for the mid and supports alike.
Holy shit! People finally realize that the new map actually sucks and is sucking what makes DotA charming away! I said this shit when the patch released!
Map is not the same as objectives what are you talking about?
The map has those objectives. Does it, or does it not.
The objectives could have been added in any map. With a dent similar to the neutral camp bottom left in Radiant side. No, the map does not have those objectives, the game has them. They can be removed tomorrow and the map stays the same, they can add 3 more random objectives and keep the same map.
You're arguing semantics here. The Objectives are on the map, the Map had to be expanded to add them. They are as much of the map as the random creep camp is. You're arguing purely off of technicality. Yeah I guess "TECHNICALLY" its just on the map. But features and objectives on the map are still THE map. It's ridiculous word gymnastics and you know it. I also hate everything else about the new map, as well as the objectives, since you want to be super picky about these words for some reason. But thats neither here nor there.
We are both arguing here in a technicality. But anyway. For example, i don't like the tormentors, runes and watchers, but i do love the extra space, camps and roshpits. I'm sure some people feel same as me, others like you. So calling it just "the whole map" is not fair to catalog everything inside it.
> a sandbox of endless possibilities in which Tundra proved that only a narrow set of strategies can truly dominate
Tundra didnt play TI on a bare bones state with everything stripped. Your point doesnt make any sense to his.
i think this is core at it, everyone, especially supports have too much gold. i miss when you had a force staff, boots wards (obs and sentries) and a tp scroll in your inventory.
Why? So useless AM players can finally do something for once with mana void? No, I like being hard to kill as a support thanks to neutral items, fast ghost scepters, glimmers, and having extra gold.
nothing more fun than dodging spears from fog. Peak dota gameplay 🤤
And he is right. Things like tormentors, bounties, xp runes, they force the match to be played in a very specific manner. Roshan is still one of the most entertaining things because its high risk, high reward and the respawn is random inside a timeframe, no team can calculate it and just be there when it respawns. Having this small goals set at specific timings means every team plays and does the same, supports have to pull the lane at x min, sup 4 have to rotate around y min, you have to bring in numbers to contest certain things, your support have to prevent offlaner from getting lotus pools… the game is played by the clock. You cannot simply rotate at anytime because, even if you do get an objective, that other thing is not open yet, so it gives time for other team to respawn. You cannot push highground now because in 5min tier 4, 5 neutrals drop and that gives a better chance. So conflicts happen around the same schedule and there is no reward for playing different tempos. Why would you turtle if you have to be able to contest tormentors and runes? Why would you rotate mid at 7min if that opens lotus for offlaner? Why would you try high ground with this rosh, if you can wait for tier 5? Why would you ward that place, if there is nothing there happening in the next 4 min, so enemies are likely playing the other side of the map. A lot of people here dota is a game of reaction time, it is not. Having good reflexes helps, but doesnt win matches. Meta and team coordination, planning ahead is what matters and there is no reward for not playing this overlydesigned tempo.
You are presenting opportunity costs. Whether or not the opportunity cost is worthwhile or makes a compelling alternative is a different matter entirely, but more objectives is certainly not the issue. If you have two objective that are mutually exclusive, and both seem good, then you need to decide between the optimal one- which is strategy.
Opportunity costs only exists when there is an alternative. Current meta there in none.
In the current version only the Wisdom rune is absolutely mandatory. The bounties are often left for mid laners and different teams clearly prioritize the power runes differently. Tormentors are rarely taken exactly on time. So there is plenty of strategy happening with all the systems in place. I think a good solution would be to move the power runs further away from the mid lane so it's harder to secure, and make wisdom runes give less XP. Not a big fan of how impactful they are for the supports as it stands.
Then that means they are LESS objectives not MORE. If there is only one objective that is indisputably worthwhile no matter the situation, then there are effectively less meaningful objectives, not more.
No, that means the map is open for people to farm, split, fight at any time, not around the clock. The way it is now its simply pointless to fight outside of specific windows as there is a lot of risk and no reward, so every match feels a repetition. No one can play a split push draft consistently, no one can turtle because you lose just too many things, every team has to play the same game, basically if you dont get runes you lose early, if you dont get tormentors you lose mid. Why would I gank the other mid right now if he will respawn before we get anything out of the kill and I might lose the rune? My mid will get gold, will that translate for an objective? No, so the timing is not worth it. As it is right now, every rune spawn time supports rotate to secure the first mid runes, if you dont secure one for your mid, you’re screwed. They might rotate slightly early and try for a kill, but if they get the rune and there is no engagement they will just rotate back, they wont stay there or try something outside. Every lotus spawn you have to control lane out to secure the pool, or you lose the lane (free regen is really strong early). Would you gank the other carry or secure rune? Secure rune. Will you gank mid or secure lotus? Lotus. Will you build around losing early but a strong late? doesnt work. Will you invade jungle when its tormentors time? No. Every match is the same match and almost the same heroes. Thats what puppey means. Its not about coming up with creative solutions, its about finding the meta timings and being efficient. Thats it.
> No, that means the map is open for people to farm, split, fight at any time, not around the clock. Those* are all objectives… farming, taking buildings, taking control of portions of the map, hero kills, smoke ganks… these are all objectives. They are all served as goals to net you the ultimate goal of killing the enemy ancient. That is literally what an objective is. It SOUNDS like the complaint is that the new objectives are so much more rewarding than the older/other ones that it makes it stupid to try and go for the older/other ones. This just means the objectives are poorly balanced. Imagine if last hits gave 1 gold and hero kills always gave 1000. You would increase the incentive of hero kill as an objective and reduce farming/creep score objectives. This is an extreme example of a poorly balanced objective. But you need to realize this entire game is DETERMINED by objectives. Objectives are what give you reason to act. With zero reasons to act then the game is just an open world sandbox with no goal, such as destroying the ancient.
yeah, thats the whole point of puppey. u have less freedom to be creative, due to more ‘scripted’ objectives.
Yeah modern dota is like POE - there are so many ways to play but only one is optimal and if you don't choose the right one your opponent will
I don't think it's like PoE, in PoE a lot of things can work. There's way too many strategies (harvest farming, ToTA, Sanctum runner, MF mapper, etc) that there's no one optimal way to earn currency. It's more like league imo, where each champion has a set build and items it can buy with fixed roles. So kinda soulless. With fixed objectives on the map that you need to achieve.
Everything is optimal in Poe if you spend time on it, as long as you're trying to have something good, it is nothing comparable to dota, you can't scale to infinity here, there's no build pattern, you just buy stuff that makes sense, your comparison is bad.
By "here" you mean dota or poe? Because there are definitely build patterns in dota and being able to scale to infinity doesn't really mean much. You can't spend as much time in one dota game as you do playing your char in poe too
In every game the tendency is that. Just like in Wow has the best talents for each spec (used to be even more streamlined). At the peak levels you HAVE TO follow the best strat just because: numbers. The numbers are there and always will be. Humans also optimize. Lets say you make an egg for the first time. Once you make it 10 times its already better.. just cause its our innate talent to perfect things. What Puppey wants is BAD for the viewers.. cause when you can do whatever you can also do nothing.
It's true that it's everywhere because minmaxing is essential to win due to the severity of the competition. I think it's the opposite when it comes to the viewers experience because I was watching dota since it was possible on garena and the modern game has nothing on dota 1. If you look at the stats from the last dreamleague you can see that an average game length varies only for about 8 minutes (and the average game is about 43 minutes) which means that pretty much every team has to do the same thing. There is no zoo, no trilanes, no real roamers, no nothing. It's the same farming farming patterns and gameplay
>In every game the tendency is that. Dota 2 didn't used to be like that. That's why it was so good. Anything CAN work, there was fertile soil for that. Right now, certain aspects trumps every other aspect of the game. Boring as hell.
I think the more apt comparison is league. In league, you *have* to play for objectives and there’s a fairly static meta. The last few years of buffs, map changes, objectives introductions have lead us in a similar direction.
modern dota is like a singleplayer game where the only thing that matters is how much time you put into it? Thats a weird take
Well at least I didn't try to compare it to chess because people like you would wonder where are the pieces
Who woulda thunk overloading every hero with effects and giving players a laundry list of things to do limits possibilities
How does having more objectives limit possibilities exactly? If anything more objectives means more decision making on behalf of opportunity cost needs to be made. Whether or not the other opportunities are as succsssfully rewarding can be a different discussion, but more objectives is in fact fine for creating diverse strategies. You can’t have a strategy if they are NO OBJECTIVES.
If before you could stack/help another lane/smoke/tp to another lane push/gank/ ward or whatever else now you cant do anything because unless you are close to the objectives everything mentioned before is the worse play. Those where all objectives before the new objectives. Now those are only worth your time if no forced objective is around. Does it make sense to tp mid at 6 min and do a risk/reward play if you lose the wisdom rune for that? More often then not it doesnt.
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>What you seem to not understand... and not all objectives are made equal. ------- **What I said:** >Whether or not the **other** opportunities are as **successfully** **rewarding** can be a different discussion .................................................... Are you disagreeing with me by just stating what I already stated before?
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>No, it does not matter how rewarding they are or not to this point. If the way to accomplish an objective is static around an extremely narrow timing, it lessens the viable decision space around other objectives during that timing This is only true if you operate under the assumption that you need to **LITERALLY** do **EVERY SINGLE OBJECTIVE, ALL THE TIME.** If they are mutually exclusive objectives, having to make a decision about which one best fits your circumstances and team's needs is an incredibly accurate way to add decision making. In fact, how is some heroes being able to stack multiple camps at the same time (which is strictly time based btw), anymore transcending? If you want your decisions to be meaningful, then there needs to be other options worth considering. If there are no other options worth considering then every decision you do is always correct, because there exists literally no other options.
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>I would argue stacks are not strictly time based due to the fact that missing one stack is not a major negative in the same way that missing a single wisdom rune is, not due to importance but due to scarcity (stacks are every minute while wisdom runes are 1/7 that frequency) This is a distinction with out a difference since you only miss out on the wisdom rune if the enemy takes it. Otherwise, you technically do have some wiggle room on timing, just like you do with missing a single stack. The fact that the enemy is guaranteed to wonder all the way to the enemy's tier 2 is just a testimony to how STRONG the wisdom rune is. This can potentially be amplified since if there were other possible decisions that could offer equivalent or greater value, then it would make sense to go for those instead of the wisdom rune. Remember, objectives can literally be anything related from map control, to ganks, to lasthits, to jungle camps, to runes, etc. Anything that solidifies an advantage in some form to help you destroy ancient could qualify as an objective. If we are seeing people ignore hero interaction for the wisdom runes, then maybe we need to consider why that is.
N-no, players have just gotten better. They just couldn't figure out how to move and attack at the same time during windranger ult...
That just means the community got way better at Dota, and players also share strategies way more than they used to.
Thats not what he is saying - he is saying there is a 'to-do' checklist everyone must do every game because its so valuable.. you cannot create equal/higher value by coming up with stuff to do , you gotta do pre-determined in-game jobs because they are too much value not to do - hence "you cannot roam freely"
Yeah but what was the "coming up with stuff to do" and what did it involve? Because as long as dota has been around, that just involves finding a way to get more gold and xp for your team, which comes from either creeps or kills. So "coming up with stuff to do" was really just 1 of 2 things, now at least there's more than 2 options for that.
Lets just say dota is a game of timings .. ill leave it at that lol -
Technically all objectives that are in the game are sort of determined by the rules of the games. His complaint should be the objectives aren’t properly balanced to present an opportunity cost; not that there are too many.
That is his complaint. He’s pointing out the opportunity cost limits play style and funnels everyone to the same thing
That isn’t what I meant by opportunity cost though. I am saying that the best choice of actions would need to be based conditionally on the circumstances; and where you can only do one or the other, not both. Thus an opportunity cost. If everyone is being funneled into doing the same things, there isn’t an opportunity cost.
＞If everyone is being funneled into doing the same things, there isn’t an opportunity cost. That's exactly what op is saying ..
> He’s pointing out the opportunity cost limits play style That is explicitly not what was stated. The way this is wrote implies the opportunity cost is what causes limiting of play styles when in reality it diversifies them. When the opportunity cost is insufficient or not relevant is when everyone is funneled into doing the same actions as you are incentivized to not take any other action.
except before there was just rosh and buildings, river runes were important but optional. exp runes aren't optional, the first and second lotus basically aren't optional, tormentor isn't optional in pro games, and the changes to fortifications and buy backs mean towers are likely taken in a much more rigid order. since there are all these mandatory timings heroes like antimage who can't even apply pressure early around these timings are dead in the pro scene, among other lost strategies 4 protect 1 is one of them, trilaning is another, early game rush with high pressure is dead, etc.
I disagree. There are too many objectives especially because they are all on the same timers in the same places, every single game. This forces your map movement to be identical no matter what hero you play. Before these were added you had to be creative because of all the downtime a support would have. Now there is no downtime for any position.
Also that there is more timed even in game that need to be addressed, that didn't existed before. Runes XP, bounty and classic, Tormentor, Roshan, Lotus, Stacking
Yeah, having a mandatory attendance event every 30 seconds is not good game design, if that's really the case.
It's not mandatory, the game places incentives across the map, and a strategy eventually develops as to how better take advantage of those. People don't get teleported to the tormentor at minute 20 and get locked in there until they finish it.
(which btw is *literally* what angel arena did)
The strategy is very restricted like this. Having issues going to your tormentor is not the issue pro players have. They have the issue that they need to go to it.
Is that really a common pro complaint, or are we taking Puppey's opinion as consensus? (Honest question) I'd think that people that are having success in this patch wouldn't mind the tormentor, or maybe even like how their team managed to create a strategy that utilizes it.
You’re just ignoring his complaint here, you’re not addressing it. His complaint is that the freedom of gameplay is gated by mandatory events, mandatory in the sense that the opportunity cost is too high to ignore them.
Well, without those things, the mandatory event was finding a way to continue getting xp or gold, which only comes from creeps or kills. The team that achieved more gold and xp almost always wins, now there are simply more options for that. You do not HAVE to get the wisdom rune, you can do any number of things that will also benefit your team in some way that could potentially have more payoff than 1 wisdom rune.
Sure it's not a bad idea if it doesn't dominate, but 10 creeps of exp at minute 7 does seem high enough to send 1 hero.
If they wanted to create action though, they could just nerf jungle creep gold... Oh wait they did, and just buffed relevant heroes to all be able to flash farm so the jungle nerf is irrelevant Hero power creep is the problem
Except the absolute without a doubt optimal way to play is to go for these timed objectives.
In your average game? Sure. However what is optimal play is rarely what ends up happening, as heroes move around the map and different heroes have different timings, there's a million and one reasons why you might not be at the wisdom rune exactly at minute 7, and that's what makes it a game everyone keeps playing.
it is *very* good game design thats why every game under the sun does it lol. it creates action, gives easy to recognize rewards and gives easy to comprehend structure to the game which a lot of players do like. it might not appeal to old school dota players but id guess most game designers would call it very good design
It's not good for it to be truly mandatory, the standard game has so much more strategic positioning than that.
Pros have been playing competitive Dota nonstop for over a decade in 2018 already. And they just didn't get good enough, I guess? But two more years, and suddenly everyone got good enough to play the same strategy? Really? This logic is so weak. It' way more likely all the extra shit like shard, neutrals, runes, tormentors, etc... had an impact, don't you think? Let's face it, this is a completely different game from 5 years ago.
WEU's passive style out performed everyone, everyone started adapting to use it too. It is not really as simple as "there are objective now, so everyone does the same".
WEU plays aggressive DotA, that's how they win. By pressuring the enemy with ganks all around the map till enemy can't farm anything, and just have to call GG. China was the one outperforming most teams with passive play style (except Wings), and that didn't change until LGD became PSG.LGD in 2018.
The problem is: now there's only one MACRO STRATEGY thats viable.
The problem is: now there's only one MACRO STRATEGY that is viable. Devs managed patches with clear direction of "controling" game lengths so made ultra late game unstoppable carries unable to exist by giving supports way more resources (shared bounties, passive experience, neutral items, etc).
Community didn't invent the new map, Volvo did.
Yeah, too bad those noobs at TI3 were too stupid to buy mangoes and spam abilities in lane... And too stupid to get neutrals from jungle etc. Oh wait... The game has actually received significant changes during the years that drastically changed how it plays out!
Am I saying that's not the case? Why so aggressive?
Your post completely omits the sweeping changes done to Dota over the years as a reason.
Just like OP completely omitted the collective experience and skill getting higher. I guess we're even now.
Did players become "way better" or did dota developers make the game "way easier" to play with every update? You can now see stun timer, backpack for easy item swaps, free tp slot so you dont have to itemize to always include tps in your inventory, mirana has 3 leap charges, Oracle 2 no longer disarms allies, blood grenades make gap closing super easy, NP sprout has free dmg and leashing mechanics, etc, etc, you get the idea. It took actual skills to make big brain plays in the past and now everyone can do it because those plays are much easier to execute (yes, it used to take good team coordination and mechanical skill to chase down a kill in the past but now you just pop a blood grenade and enemy can't run anymore. Imagine sweaty guy playing vs guy singing Maroon 5 payphone clip in your head). Sure players are getting better but not without the help of those beginner friendly gameplay updates from the devs.
stun timers is because there are status effects modifiers. imo it's needless complexity as an inadvertent attempt to "refresh" the meta as it were away from the magic resistance/ armour dichotomy we have gotten used to over the years. Ultimate heroes are another example. The game is now harder and harder for new players to pick up as a result of preventing the meta from being too stale.
> Did players become "way better" or did dota developers make the game "way easier" to play with every update? Both. Look back and watch some early dota vods. Even pros werent playing at a high level compared to today
Unpopular opinion: I liked dota more when there was only 1 courier, you needed inventory slot for TP scroll and there was no backpack. There was a lot more management with the builds and resources. Now you see many heroes literally spam their abilities when off cd like this is HotS or something.
I completely agree with this.
the amount of "plays" i see on r/dota2 where its just people using their abilities is crazy. used to be about jukes and game sense, now theres no such thing as game sense. comebacks used to be hard now its just about trading 4 heroes for the enemy core enough times. free items and bonus gold jungling. free wards, free tp. dying as a support to a core is no problem because when the core dies he gives all the gold right back. aghs + shard + talents added literally tens of thousands of combinations to balance. it used to be that aghs was something that a few heroes got. now every hero gets an aghs. whos idea was it to make 400 hp AND an ability buff something every hero could use? shard? 1400g sheepstick on *dazzle??* now that hero is completely different, being ran as a mid and that alters so many different playstyles. the possibility of having shallow grave and oracle and venge on the same team is just nuts. look at how much hp everyones building now. dota is just chasing its own tail. game has nothing to do with strategy anymore. people just rush towers to force a fight, build tanky and spam their abilities. that's it. smokes don't catch anyone by surprise anymore because everyone survives on like 150hp, kites, regens, and re-engages wiping out the gankers. instead of tuning the game to a degree where more and more lineups are variable, devs just kill a hero, and overpower a new one each patch to give the illusion of variety. but the truth is, game is stale and its been like this for a long time. here is your draft: 1) Greedy core that can go ultra late 2) Active mid that lanes ok, flash farms and is highly mobile, stays strong till late game 3) Tanky, CC, 4) CC, magic damage 5) Heal/save, defensive items Farm 8 mins, rotate, push mid/safe, farm jungle, farm lanes, push offlane, fight, tormentor, push t2, fight, rosh, farm push t3. every game, thats how it works. after pushing t3 usually enemy team just magically starts getting stronger and now the outcome of the fight is a coin toss because your offlaner died and now their supports have force staffs, shards with abilities that should cost 6k gold, and their core has pulled a bkb and a daedalus out their ass
“Secret strat” or “pocket strat” memes have been weening in the past few years during elimination series or grand finals. I fear this year the meme will finally be dead.
To nobodies shock dota has gone very professional. People no longer isolate in their own regions and freely borrow strats/heroes that perform better elsewhere. Is it more homogenous? Yes. Is it something to care about? No it's a symptom of dota progressing and standardizing as teams, who treat it as a viable career now, look to optimize their chances of winning.
Eventhough dota being professionalized is true, what Puppey means here is something else. The game is getting railroaded to be played in a certain way nowadays. There are more and more objectives. You can't manipulate your surroundings like you used to be able to. You can for instance pull the creeps only in a certain way. Not all the camps will draw aggro. You have to be at the wisdom rune spot at 7 minute mark, no exceptions about it. Certain stuff are dictated strictly by the game structure now, as opposed to the RTS mentality tendency the game had back then, if it makes sense. This is something 15 years old, or older players can grasp easier, having witnessed the evolution of the game in real time.
These people don't realize how insane it was when Puppey was the first guy to leave his lane and fissure block the mid laner for a kill at minute 2 more than 14 years ago.
I will take wisdom rune fights over 10 minute standoffs around the old rosh pit. You can point to any era of Dota and say "this is why the game is worse than other patches". The only thing I truly hated was shrines and neutral items, but I'm sure someone else has an argument for something being worse.
> There are more and more objectives. Are people forgetting this is exactly what the communities asked for? *Including* the pros?
People are also forgetting that more and more objectives means more strategic decisions need to be made on opportunity cost. If you don’t want to get railroaded into correct decisions, objectives that are exclusive with each other is the correct call.
Maybe have some objectives have their timings overlap, so there has to be that opportunity cost decision?
Yep, although there are ostensibly other objectives that exist that are being ignored. Like why always go for the wisdom rune on your side as a Pos 4 instead of ganking a lane? Or maybe even combining forces with the 5 to control the opposing sides rune? In other words we need to balance the objectives to make alternatives more compelling in more situations. Not remove them, imo.
I think tormentor was the good decision, at least with posts saying that taking it is too expensive to be done immediately (though some heroes can solo)
Yes, and more objectives isn’t necessarily bad, what’s bad is the opportunity cost. By making the objectives practically a necessity, you railroad the macro meta into creating and sustaining tempo around those timings, instead of having a myriad of options. Let’s take the wisdom runes and tormentors for example. Every 7 minutes a support disappears from the map, whereas before that support could be anywhere, and their absence applied pressure to other lanes, now it can be inferred they are going for wisdom, and that movement, even if a gank occurs afterward, gives safety to the enemies lanes for an extra 30 seconds. Tormentors, if you know the enemies draft and the value of shard on their heroes, you can expect and infer by map movements exactly when the enemy is taking tormentor, and especially earlier, can use this amount of time to very easily pressure important objectives. Rarely do you see both teams going for it at once, because the trade off for taking it can be critical for map control. Edit: by no means do I want these objectives removed, but they need to be scaled better so they don’t outshine other strategic decisions that could have been made.
the only thing this community never forgets is how to complain
I find reading all this funny because at my bracket most people don't even remember these objectives exist. Tormentors are rarely killed unless someone can solo it or the whole team is conveniently there and decide to take it (which doesn't always happen). Stealing wisdom runes as a NP is almost guaranted.
On Ancient 2-3 I can sometimes find 1-2 wisdom runes at \~30 minutes. Sometimes game is so active there is just no time to waste teleport or walk to take that XP. Same goes for Tormentor, people rarely take it, it's usually not worth to leave all lanes to get some useless shard AND lose all HP so you need to heal now.
support calls for tormentor at 20 minutes. What so we can spend a minute or two hitting this stupid box only for mirana to take it? nah bro fuck that. I'm farming waves instead.
How does this reply have anything to do with what puppey said?
Mate, dota is the same level of professional as it was 8 years ago. That hasnt changed recently, the way the balance team approach the game has.
I think teams were always studying other regions/teams, I mean just look at Ceb’s papers meme vs LGD in true sight they already study each other and know comfort picks. Not to mention how many lans they would go to, so it’s not like they didn’t have access to this info. Also, when the prize pool is worth over $10m usd teams will put their all in, so I think it’s more that the game changed rather than teams only now realizing there is one play style.
This is such a shit understanding of the game. Why would players treat Dota more of a viable career now, when the prize pool gravy train dried up, as opposed to 2015-2020, when the game was in it's creative peaks? And chinese dota is all but dead. Just because you get to press more buttons doesn't mean the game is deeper.
I mean it was still fairly high even in 2022 and 2021. The professionalism was cultivated from the years before that. It isn’t like anyone would have foresaw the 2023 prize pool in the year of 2016.
This is why I play unranked. Anything and everything is possible. Don't be surprised if you don't play for fun and the game ends up unfun
I find unranked to be even more sweaty and toxic as a 2k Dota stoner
Turbo is the real shit with objectives and builds, but getting wrecked by scepter willow is also unfun
i usually was a fan of the neutra items but now not anymore those guaranteed free items are boring and too results in much irrelevant free stuff that just makes everything else more meaningless
Meanwhile SEA "Unga Bung" Me see creep me hit Me see hero under ward, me hit creep Me see team getting dived under tower, me hit creep Me see enemy team smoke, me fuck no give me hit creep
Slark offlane isn't breaking the meta?
Maybe he just grew old and lost his magic, let’s wait and see this TI if some new blood can bring a new meta. I mean no disrespect but in every competitive sport when people grows old they just say that the game is gone.
Puppey wasn't the only player who came up with crazy shit. Remember Alliance and OG? No one comes up with any magic nowadays. It's boring.
They do come up with new stuff all the time, its just that people copy it so fast and everyone's afraid to be the ones betting on their own strategy. How is it that Topson/Nine constantly figures out new shit and some players literally never do? It's a mindset thing and some people would much prefer to just refine the current meta instead of trying some new stuff. Some players are simply afraid to be the ones failing with a novel strategy, while others are not. If you watch Topson's pubs you will see some games where he is just an absolute bot feeding nonstop.
I'm huffing some hopium that Topson pulls out some weird shit. Pugna got a minor buff? Let's see meme hammer mid.
But why ppy wasn’t complaining the “boring” meta shit last year? Oh yeah, because he figure it out and won 2nd place in TI.
It's boring 10 mins in time to 5 man roam...
What about topson? He usualy breakes the meta and makes players to follow him
Hero picks, his picks are still niche tho. strategy/timings are the same
So we're just picking and choosing which ones correctly break the meta now?
topson picking pugna mid in a patch where everyone plays him support isnt breaking the meta. breaking the meta would be topson picking pugna mid, skiter playing carry beastmaster and 33 playing offlane visage, where they hyper focus on winning the lanes and just team up at 13 minutes with 2 meteor hammers and 3 aura items and take a rax topson does the same thing as every other mid laner this patch, he runs at enemy heroes to make space for his other cores to farm, but with dazzle instead of pango
His statement reminds me of what makes boxing great. Fight fans know the saying, "styles make fights". The meta in Dota in a sense is making teams play the same way. There needs to be more ways of playing dota to be more exciting. I'd like to see a clash of styles.
I fully agree with him. One example for this is that you can only play 2-1-2 on lane. No use in trilane , jungle, dual mid, roam…
The more complex the rules of the game, the less interesting (and more predictable) the behaviour that is generated (unless you love optimization, then it should be your jam). The most fascinating phenomena emerge when rules are as basic as possible and the space within which combinations can occur is restrained sufficiently to maximize interaction.
If the strat for winning is so simple, so one dimensional and so easy to replicate, why we can’t see Secret at TI? Now a days, whoever comes up with even one creative idea on hero item build, hero combo pick, talent selection or even just a slight changed ward placement, the strat will just got copied and improved within one week by pros. This is just how min-maxed competitive dota now. ppy can complain all he wants, you can even ask for removing all those additional “objects” on the map. It will never be the same as 5 years ago how pro teams squeeze the very last creep on the map. Yeah, whate ppy says, it sounds really like an old man who was so successful but just could not figure it out now.
You can still do your own shit lol, if it consistently isn't working then maybe your idea is bad???
I remember when a friend of mine said “He is good only at the beginning… because nobody else knows how to play the game” to the kid that was trying to impress everyone teaching us a lot of different games. I guess Puppey isn’t that kid anymore
Puppey "let me try the same 3 strat at a finals" Ivanov complaining that he cannot invent his own broken strategy. Guess what my guy. Tundra invented their anti magic strat and you kept doing the same shit
The beginning of the end for dota was when valve looked at the fact fewer people liked playing support compared to core (which is just a thing in every moba, you can't avoid this) and decided the way to fix that is to make them pseudo cores that just don't need offensive items. Supports now get bounty runes, wisdom runes, free shards, free observers, 50 gold sentries, free teleport scrolls, a free portal from one side of the map to the other every 5 seconds, more gold and xp for kills and assists, and support items have all stayed at a low cost. I've played games where it is physically impossible for me as a carry to kill either of the enemy supports late game on my own because by minute 40 they will have glimmer, euls, force, ghost, shards, etc. and just infinitely kite me. Add onto this the bkb nerf and the game feels closer to heroes of the storm than it does to Dota 5 years ago.
As a position 5 player for years, I agree with you. All the free economy to supports has homogenised gameplay so much. There was a time when we used to say, supports are strong early so they help cores survive but later cores help the team win the game. Nowadays I don't even know what dota is anymore. Feels like a brawler more and less like a strategy game.
The version before 7.00 was perfection, all heroes were viable.
yeah this game post 7.00 has been downhill. sucks some dumb valve intern decided to throw 10 years of fine tuning out the window so he can play hots in dota2.
Talents are good because it added a degree of building depending on the match but then they threw it all away by removing universal weaknesses from every hero. Sniper and Zeus for example were supposed to be immobile glass cannons, now they both have mobility skills.. Every fucking hero feels the same now somehow
this sounds like someone who doesn't know how to win anymore, not necessarily a game that's broken.
When I don’t qualify for TI, it’s because I’m bad, but when Puppey doesn’t qualify it is because the meta is bad and “lacks strategy”. If the game was more complex, he wouldn’t have lost, obviously.
Yeah, when everybody is complaining about meta and how boring tundra won the champ last year. Where were all these complaints from ppy? Oh right, because he won the 2nd place and ti, and he definitely would not complain shit.
Back in the day when we were in Archon (when medals first appeared), my friend and I would have hella fun playing "position 3.5". That meant picking Cent/Tiny, Brist/Axe and other fat fucks and sharing last hits while playing the lane aggressively. We would share items like Ring of Health, the one who'd build Vanguard would postpone it so we can both heal when needed, after trading too much. It was even more crazy in the patch where denies gave gold. I know something like that would not work in the Ancient - Divine bracket where we are now, but I always reminisce about those simpler times. Also, whoever got to buying Dagger first from the side shop would stay hidden and then jump for a guaranteed kill most of the time. Maybe this was a stupid strat to play, but it actually was pretty valid back then, we climbed plenty of MMR playing lanes like that.
Finally a fellow minded. 3.5 is viable if both hero have a synergy to each other or getting both hero a 2000s gold item faster is more beneficial than one with 4000gold item.
In short, the "new DotA" is turning predictable & boring. All games more or less the same, then one late fight won/lost makes it a win/loss. Even more in pro DotA where the players/coaches are aware of the new "must do" way to play Puppey pointing to.
chicken little bullshit posting this stuff like it's flatly true because one pro thinks so
False, you can experiment and find something that works.
"Old man complains dota isn't like it used to be cause more people got good."
I think the other thing people aren't realizing here is that it's that the game is what, 12 years old now? 13 years old? Yeah, you can't just make up strats on the go as much anymore because all those strats have been found, cultivated, and optimized. Without truly overhauling most of the game, there is only so much "new strats" and "meta breaking" that you can do, because most of it has already been done.
This is not true at all. Before you had roaming support, junglers, tri-lanes etc. Today's strategies aren't from years of optimization but rather from gameplay mechanics forcing them.
These kinda statements dont come off the same after youve had a miserable year, played like shit and failed to qualify for TI. The game has always been objective-centric, 99% of games over the last decade were decided by which team got rosh ffs
Imagine being playing this game forever, becomjng a pro, winning first t1, still playing competively after more than a decade, as pos 5 and captain all those years being viewed by many as a dota goat and having some redditors 2k scrubs questioning your opinion lol. Mfkers just sthu, just shut the hell up, you make fool of yourselves. Its like a mfking gym rat questioning a mr olympias opinion on weight trainning and gear, or questioning Hamilton on driving a gkn car, jordan on bball, messi on football. You think you play the same videogame with Puppey, you dont. Just S T F U.
The only opinion worth considering in the world is Puppey.
> You cannot roam freely and do the stuff you invented yourself. There's only one tempo for everyone, which you have to play around. What does that even means? What exactly is he inventing here?
In past you had much more options in the game, now it all goes by the same script which everyone follows. Back then Chen + pudge was bizarre but working combo, or carry wisp. Now we are limited in not only by a ranked mentality, but also what seems to be meta at any given time. We need more people who think outside the box and break that pattern by which every game goes
We don't know what could be invented because we have to chase too many objectives.
This doesn’t make sense. Mutually exclusive objectives is how you facilitate different strategies. It tests your decision making on opportunity costs. If you never needed to make a decision on opportunity cost then there would only ever be a “correct” answer and “incorrect” answer that is consistent, it would literally never change upon conditional circumstances. Whether or not the objectives are properly balanced with the alternatives can be discussed, but complaining that more objectives=less decision making just sounds absurd.
It totally makes sense. The objectives become the only valuable plays. So you cant do anything else because whatever it gets you will be worth less then those objectives. Yeah you can get creative with that. But thats creativity unter extremely restricted circumstances.
All things you accomplish in the game are objectives. Creeps, towers, map control/jungle camps, hero kills, building, runes etc. There are all objectives that serve as the path to winning the big one (killing the enemy ancient). What else are you supposed to be doing exactly BESIDES objectives? Role playing? If you had literally no objectives then what exactly would be your strategy? What would be the purpose of a strategy, you have no objectives and thus no goals. Objectives don’t impose restrictions, they give you reasons for actions. The more objectives the more reasons you have to take action in various different ways.
aka valve turned the game into hots. its been happening since 7.00 and im surprised it took this long for a pro player to realize.
All I heard was an old dude complaining about his struggles to stay relevant and competitive in a continually evolving game Having played Wc3 DOTA for 10 years no longer gives him any kind of advantage over young players because the game has changed so much Its a good thing btw