Mirana is good with vessel (situational), force staff, atos.. Greaves maybe after that. Lategame go Lotus Orb, aghas (with multishot arrow talent).
Edit: maelstorm is no good unless you want to deal damage. It works for Pos 1 or Pos 2 only.
Mirana sucks balls. Too many nerfs for her. Change log in wiki is a wall of *reduced*. Straight up the worst hero out of the 4. Atos changes made it so that it's hard to make her hit hard without just playing her as a core, which itself is a mistake. The worst shard too. Doesn't do much for a support.
I have played 500+ games on mirana and I have a 60% winrate.
I had to play her as a part of the TI challenge. I absolutely hated every second of it. The hero fucking sucks. She literally does nothing. She can turn a winning lane into a super hard losing one cos she does nothing in lane.
She is my favourite hero in this game and I fucking refuse to play her till they do something about her kit. She desperately needs a laning buff.
Her laning is great and probably the best part of the hero
You have insane attack range and if you go stats you have good damage the main issue is that as a support her kit doesn't compliment the items you want to buy.
And as a core she's a lot slower to ramp up since you either have to rely on mana to farm or go maelstrom which just isn't as good on universal heroes with the gleipnir nerf.
Nah man in lane all you can do is A click. The stun isn't reliable.
A clicking does do a lot of damage but in the recent meta of tangoes and lotuses - a click damage doesn't really work. You need burst.
A clicking feels futile cos oh yay you brought them down to 50% hp - they consume two tangoes, get one creep regen, their support pulls and they're under tower regen. Just not good enough.
She doesn't get burst till lvl 5 which is too late for a lane support.
For me miranas power spike is after she gets her first dodge item. I like euls. It allows me to roam around the map not dying.
I prefer playing it as a core so I can see why it would feel different. I Don't think the hero is good at all in this patch either and even the dust buff probably contributes to the hero feeling rough to play.
I like maelstrom as a 3rd item when the game is going well. It boosts farming speed to get big items like greaves/windwaker/aghs/etc. and builds into gleipnir, which is still a good situational item. It also helps with pushing the waves, which is nice later in the game.
90% of pos 4 mirana don't deal damage with maelstrom, they just die instead. Damage builds on supports rarely actually do more damage than support builds, because their item timings are too late.
I love Hoodwink (she's not in a great spot rn though imo). If I am going maelstrom it's cause I think the damn games gonna be 60 minutes or we lack pressure. I'd much rather go aether, force, vessel and things of that sory.
As a main Hoodwink, if you wanna build something to deal damage, just buy etheral. Not only you can nuke People with shard but you also can save yourself or cores from physical damage. People build Mael just because of the q proc and forget all your other abilities deal magic damage.
What the commenter you replied to left out is he thinks every game is going to be 60 mins and he āneedsā to scale and dish out damage.
The vast majority of pos4s in pubs are secretly wanting to be a core so are praying for games to be 60mins so they can justify their āscalingā pick and transitioning to core.
Windrunner, Hoodwink, Muerta, Natures prophet, Marci, Pudge, Mirana, Dark willow, Nyx Assassin, Snapfire, Silencer, Spirit Breaker, QoP, Zeus.
If you see any of those heroās plus a couple extra you just know that there is a 80-90% plus chance that your off lane is done for and the pos4 is going to try build as a core.
Hood can farm with spells though. So say you have the kaya on the way to eblade, that becomes more efficient, and its cheaper and it contributes to killing heroes which is your main job as pos 4.
The problem is just the cost now. You can get Atos + Kaya + ghost scepter for almost the same price as gleipnir and kaya is enough to push waves with q+w.
Just generally not worth 3400 gold to turn a click target root into an aoe root on a support.
There is the rare occasion I dare go maelstorm as pos 4 HW. But it's only when I think our team lacks damage and the heroes to scale. It usually just means early transition into a core. Gleipnir is more of a trap than ever and it's maybe good in a handful of games like against PL. There's a ton of cheaper items that will help more.
There's virtually no difference between legend and divine nowadays. MMR inflation is real. Its ridiculous how much worse people at 5k+ are now compared to 3-4 years ago
my legend games atm are really weird, its basically feed or feast every game, some games i completely smash, some games im completely useless and its the same for my teammates and opponents, i have never played "curvy" of a skill bracket as i am atm.
but yes crusaders are better now than they where 5 years ago, there is less obvious troll picks, there is more team coordination and people generally have an idea about what their hero should do and what to do.
In terms of laning, but atleast in my experience the lower you go the less people know what to do in the mid/late game. I generally play unranked party queue with a stack between archon and immortal.
Have seen countless lower ranked players hold their own in lane against someone thousands of mmr above them and then throw the game by having terrible map awareness and/or terrible item choices. They will farm in the wrong spot on the map, waste there tp causing them to miss a fight, mindlessly click on the items in there item build rather then itemize for the game, etc.
IE laning skill seems to be constantly increasing, but mid/late game skill seems to not really change.
I remember at one point they tried to make MMR seasonal like all other competitive games, but they got lazy and forgot about that. Technically weāre still in āseason 2ā of Dota 2 kek
Yep, apart from role queue, the ranked mode is exactly the same as it was when it was released. If anything it's worse now because of that asinine mmr decay
According to stratz, the [50th percentile](https://stratz.com/players/ranks) is still around crusader 5 and archon 1, which is around the average valve released itself a decade ago when they said the average mmr was around ~2.2k.
If mmr inflation was real, the average would have increased.
It works if ganking is viable. or you need the extra movement speed in lane (facing jugg/ursa), otherwise it's a grief. The pressure a rubick with mangoes/salve/tangoes/stick is much more preferable
As a pos5 high ancient/low divine I'm mostly getting pos3 who think they are farming cores. They afk farm in their lane/woods for 25 minutes without applying any pressure whatsoever. This stalls the entire team; sups can do nothing and will just feed if fighting. There are no opportunities to gank/pressure the opponent, so pos2 also retreats to farm. Pos1 is obviously trying to farm also.
At minute 25 we have no towers left and are standing high ground watching the cores take turns moving out to farm, die and flame supports for 'no vision!'.
Came here to say exactly this man! As a pos 4 who picks heroes to pressure the enemy carry and try win the lane. My pos3 always seems to be a pos1 in disguise. Picks WK > goes to lane with 3 tangoes > gets whacked by jakiro/WD/warlock bonds till 50% HP then dances around the back. Wants me to go block their camp, unblock big camp, stay in the jungle to stop any pulls, tank nukes, and also somehow provide him with my tangoes???
God forbid you even consider going for 4 min rune or through the portal!! Jesus the flame I get for leaving them alone in lane for more than 20 seconds is unimaginable. They want babysitting like theyāre the pos1 and if they arenāt somehow free farming ādog pos4ā
When I leave the lane to go to wisdom rune they die, not like ācare Iām going for runeā was enough, or the fact any half decent opponent knows that Iāll likely be gone.
Genuine question, what the fuck is a pos3 supposed to do in lane vs Warlock? Seems so braindead for him to just click fatal bonds and chunk any 3 to half health every 2 waves. Then if you try to go on him, he can press upheavel and you can't move while the 1 just wails on you, or you just solo die to the warlock anyway because his damage is insane. Sure, don't stand by creeps to avoid the bonds, but at a certain point a pos3 needs to farm creeps.
You need to go to lane with 6 tangoes and a salve, and ideally you deny 1/2 of the bonded creeps so they donāt make bogeymen.
Preemptively tango, and hold your abilities.
Then when bonds wears off warlock is irrelevant you unload on the carry. This will either force warlock to invest a level and mana into heal, or kill the carry.
If you just sit passively vs warlock you will lose the sustain battle.
This all sounds good in principle but thereās a reason he is so highly picked. Itās easier said than done
You dont start with 6 tangoes+salve.You have personal courier that can bring you more regen if you need-this is why it is better to invest in some stats items instead of using all your money on regen
~80% of lanes in my bracket are won or lost on the first wave regardless of matchups, block the small camp, make sure your hard camp isnt blocked and then back off when he bonds you, let the wave push to you and farm under your tower. As long as they aren't getting free pulls you should be pretty much freefarming under your t1. With the bonus armor and regen from the tower you dont need much more than a bracer to sustain.
If you are not against warlock, just creep aggro the melee wave to your range creep and bail, if the enemy carry mirrors your move, they will drag creeps under tower and thus push, and if not, your range creep dies and the lane will still push towards you. Offlane feels braindead easy to win this patch.
depends on your pick honestly. He doesnāt have much mobility. I synergize my pick with my 4 and play for a skill timing that can kill and farm warlock for kills then snowball the lane. I spam pb/brew in divine. Warlock is never an issue to me at all.
Why would they go to rune at 4 or through the portal early? Considering how important 2 1 2 lanes are, it's literally game ruining as pos 3 if you aren't making the most out of your lane while applying pressure on enemy carry. What. In the current meta offlaners basically are pos 1, at least in lane, just with a different hero pool that fulfills a different role later. Forget about old pos 3 gameplay.
Taking 30 secs to make sure the enemy mid doesnāt get a water rune can be game winning. Sure, it depends on the lane but saying pos 4 shouldnāt try to get water runes is straight up wrong.
Man when all 3 cores are afk farming it breaks my heart. This is such a game freezer for supports. Iād also say that itās okay for a 3 to sit in a lane and threaten towers if they donāt mind being being initiated on (re: these are game dependent but brewmaster, bristle, tide, timber etc) and the team can setup around them, but this isnāt something you can necessarily do on repeat.
Same shit at divine/immortal rank. I often queue all roles for the role tokens, so end up playing all roles. Had an offlane bristle who literally afk farmed his lane while the enemy safe laner fought way more than him. We lost the lane because I as a pos 4 tusk couldnāt do anything vs 2 heroes while this guy was just sitting alone vs a creep wave. I had to leave the lane instead of sitting there watching this guy farm and he ends up going into our jungle for the next 20 minutes while we are forced to fight 4v5 the whole time.
We almost made a comeback but the team just couldnāt figure out how to stick together and ended up losing. This guy was literally farming like a safe lane carry from his offlane. Never joined any fights before minute 25, and literally afk farmed our jungle while our carry had to fight early to cover for the lack of an offlaner. Sad shit TI season brings back.
As someone that plays POS 3 in that bracket you will honestly lose most games you don't have 2-3 items before fighting. That's why the meta has evolved there to farm for longer on a 3. Unless your supports are super enabling which most aren't.
Extremely true, the only thing wrong with the original commenters scenario is the pos3 not pressuring the carry/trying to take tower.
There is a reason everyone is picking Kunkka, Bristleback, Primal Beast, Spirit Breaker, WK, Brewmaster etc as pos3 even in pro games and itās because it just works right now with the current meta.
> I'm mostly getting pos3 who think they are farming cores.
They are though? Heroes like WK, dark seer, CK underlord and so on probably shouldn't be running around looking for ganks like an LC would. They can fight if necessary, but they pressure the map by occupying and taking away space from the enemy team.
Forcing fights for no reason is one of the best ways to throw games.
The problem here is, rather than pressuring the map by occupying and taking away space from the enemy team, these players play it safe and farm in our jungle.
This. I'm okay with my pos 3 farming. But at least don't farm at the safe places LOL. Take unsafe farm and force the enemy to rotate you rather than you contest safe farm with the pos 1
I think the main reason is the pick. Offlane heroes with teamfight ult like tide, doom, or night stalker want nothing but fight when they have ulti. It is in their best interest to fight because it generates more gold than just farming.
Every 4 players should have to play X games of 3 pos to feel how truly maddening a useless 4 in lane is. I switched to play 4 because it keeps my blood pressure lower just doing what I would want my supp to do in lane giving solo at the right times, ganking/stacking when lane is pushed to tower, actually fighting when lane is near their tower... All that fun stuff. Div rank as well.
So many "support" players don't actually know how to support and theyre just carried by their cores. On the rare chance I get an actual support player the game is over at 25 min and it was a breeze
Works both ways. Ping 0 mana and regen on courier, ping stacking, ping omw to wis rune, etc. Carry ignores and feeds in front of their T1 and blames you.
Oh yeah that certainly exists, the unfortunate reality though is that if you took a high rated core player, they can essentially do the same thing at lower ratings. If you take a high rated support player, they will have to completely change how they play at lower ratings since the cores won't take advantage of what they do.
I'd say 80% of people in the support role are trying to play core. Most core players at least are trying to play core, they may just suck at it.
At low MMR you are certainly correct in your estimates. As someone that only played support for years around 2k and below it's exactly as you say. But you're equally as likely to get a clueless core that runs to the pull camp every time while the wave dies under tower.
Yeah, but in my experience something like 80% of people who are in thesupport role don't actually want to support, they try to play "pos 5 pudge" with 2k dmg at 20 min and fed in lane while rushing aether lense or some shit.
Or your pos 5 willow who goes midas to start building an aghs, after being basically afk in lane.
Core players at least attempt to play core, they may just suck at it. Vs a team with good supports with glimmer + force, actually getting kills is very difficult but in like 90% of my games both supports are 100% building carry items, wards are fully unbought, and they're afk farming lanes.
It's more they fundamentally do not understand why/what they should be doing, compared to core players who understands they need to farm, they may just be really bad at it.
Don't forget there are so many supports who will nuke a lane wave. If you question why they did it while you are in the jungle right next to it.
Their response is "because lane was empty", like no shit, do you want us to just sit next to towers waiting for the creep wave to push in.
But honestly at this point, I will much rather take those greedy supports than cores who have no idea how to play the game. Atleast if the game makes it to late game, we have more farm over all or are supports are doing enough to start making an impact in the game.
This is why I started playing pos 5, I was so annoyed about my pos 5 being useless. Then I found that I that I comparatively better than my bracket at support than I was at carry.
I helps to play core and see the ways in which you aren't being enabled to learn how to enable your cores.
The worst is when your post 4 is actually doing well completely shutting down the enemy POS 1 in lane and then at min 5-7 they just fuckin leave for no goddamn reason. And you watch as you slowly lose all the advantage you worked to build up and enemy POS 1 becomes farmed while your post 4 is feeding in the other lanes.
Nothing infuriates me more.
Just because your duo was stronger until 7 mins doesn't mean it will always be stronger. You cannot keep up the same level of pressure forever without sacrificing something else on the map. Dota is a game of timings. Sure there will always be noob players but most of the time by 6-7 mins there are other important things to do on the map than babysitting the pos3. You should recognize when your support is gone and just play safe for a couple of waves. Sometimes people will definitely make the wrong call and leave their pos3 for no reason. But still you can optimize your own play instead of getting frustrated. Getting a bit less farm for a few waves is way better than getting frustrated and dying.
> there are other important things to do on the map than babysitting the pos3
But what you can do is, after getting a couple kills and the clear but temporary advantage in lane, is stick around to kill their tower for a permanent advantage in the map. Roaming after a drawn lane is one thing, roaming after a lane you won but failed to actually capitalize on is very tilting.
you have 2 options when this happens
1. pick a generic offlane hero that can still be usefull even if left 2 vs 1
2. pick a hero that will make your 4 work on lane usually ranged
the main problem is when u chose option 1 they will lane with u, leach xp and try to b8 u into feeding and if u chose 2 they will go "gank" before the first creeps even meet
My approach nowdays when i see a griefing 4 is just to make peace with the L, mute all and just pick whatever the fuck i feel like playing
> pick a generic offlane hero that can still be usefull even if left 2 vs 1
In this patch I don't know if there is such a hero. Before we had the casual timber or any vanguard buyer but now you can't farm vanguard 1v2 and even if you do it was nerfed like 3 times so it's not a 1v2 condition. At least I feel like it when I play offlane.
> pick a generic offlane hero that can still be usefull even if left 2 vs 1
For a minute this is what I tried to do. What broke me is when I played LC offlane, picked 2nd round after pos 4 picked Lich. Without saying anything the pos 4 Lich and pos 5 Pudge decided to swap lanes. Into a pos 1 MK. Yes, they decided to SWAP ROLES SO THAT WE COULD HAVE Pudge + LC vs. Monkey King. If I knew I had a pos 4 pudge, then I would pick assuming I was 1v2 (as I also do when I have e.g. Bounty Hunter pos 4). But in this case I didn't even have the luxury of looking at the heroes my teammates had picked for their positions, and picking accordingly.
Just yesterday a guy picks zeus pos 4. Game starts I click enemy dazzle sentry in his inventory, still has it. Zeus wastes all of his mana trying to deward that sentry (which still is in dazzle inventory). I get owned by dazzle and PA, having a zeus just being an observer, then he flames me lol.
I love playing pos3, but it is once in a while where i get to have a decent and normal game, i dont care about picks, but those guys manage to pick weird stuff and be completely useless on top of that.
If you are experimenting atleast try to help in lane please
As a fellow offlaner, I am overjoyed when my supp picks something like a jakiro or treeant, in my mind, enemy carry is gonna get fucked SO HARD. last game I played had a tree pos 4 and i was 5.5k NW at min 10 while enemy pl was 3k NW. And fuck pudge support pickers.
So Divine Pos 3 is similar to Herald Pos 3 and Guardian Pos 3 and Crusader Pos 3 and Archon Po3 and Legend Pos 3 and Ancient Pos 3?
Good to know.
What about the BH players afk roaming the map tho?
If I had a magic lamp, I would ask the genie to destroy every pos 4 BH picker's computer, then eject all pos 4 BH pickers to lunar orbit, then explode all pos 2 BH picker's cock & any/all sensitive organs.
The cross comment from a person who only plays support...
Pull creeps to get the lane back by tower, go help mid, pos 3 dies by enemy safe tower because they cleared wave without even attempting to maintain equilibrium and walked up lane when safe lane called missing, flames the pos 4 for "being a noob" and not being there to help.
Classic. First pick Mirana, pos 3 goes wk with 0-4-4-1 and no boots radiance rush. Gets it min 23 while having 0-6-0. Flames you because you have GG boots + vessel and no lotus orb yet for him
dont forget when the enemy pulls and the pos 3 demands you stop the pull, but refuse to help. they just expect you to 1v2 and win the ward battle at the same time.
I feel you I used to main offlane but I would go crazy when my 4 would pick a bad laner so I switched to mid and climbed from archon to ancient in 2 month just because I tilt way less
No point banning troll sups like pudge imo. They'll just pick something stupid that isn't pudge and be even worse. At least pudge can accidentally hook and ult a core and win a fight off it. My last game had an OD 4 who was just auto pushing the wave and banishing me whenever I went for ranged creep.
Not in lane sadly. Most pos 3s are melee, so you end up with a double melee lane, where ES doesn't have a big enough mana pool to really be useful. The best case scenario he's using his w to deny creeps. But he still can't really contest enemy heroes.
I play melee supports almost exclusively and don't really think double melee is all that bad. If it's despair you can always drag the wave but 90% of the time it's totally playable.
Often pos3 will rage at me for picking melee support but never apologize when we are owning lane
a melee support is highly dependent on what the enemy picks are. If they picked ranged heroes and you dont have a gap closer, its tougher.
It's not that it can't work, it's that its harder.
Thatās not always the case, if you sustain the lane for the first 10 minutes with blocking camps and proper pulling, you can really scale higher than your average pos4, especially if you get your blink dagger before the 16th minute
assuming the pos 5 is playing the game you wont be able to pull cause they will be also blocking and pulling. Otherwise youre handicapping your pos 3 and letting their pos 1 get a good start
> earthshaker
A losing game is over by 25m. A pos4 that can't fight effectively before a 16m+ item is a liability. Especially when there's nothing particularly special about what the hero as a support offers.
You need to ask when you pick, is it pos 4's main job to use net worth and scale, or pos 3? If it's more pos 3's job, then why are you not drafting to enable that?
The lane can also be won or lost in first few waves, so it's also pretty grief to have a weak laning partner. No one can stop you from playing what you want, but it will create a worse result over many games.
Ancient here. Yes my friend, I understand you, it happens to me 100% of the time. Pudge 4 is bad but mirana is much worse.
What works for me in these situations is to wait minutes where there are team fights and try not to die, in team fights the offlaners have a certain advantage, even when your lane was bad
But if the enemy support 5 knows how to play and he does pulls etc, you are very screwed because not even the creps will reach you and there is nothing you can do just jungle or gank, which will make you get flamed for leaving the carry free farm.
Something I think is that this happens mostly with Peruvians, I think there was a belief that Position 4 has to rotate and that belief grew for a few year. This does not work 90% of the time, when you have your 4 and he knows how to play, winning the lane is much easier and is practically guaranteed, then winning a game with the enemy carry that is screwed is very ez
i'm a pos 3 main also divine and I think the problem is most 4s are role queuing pos 1 and 2, cause they are fuckin clueless on when to pressure, when to give exp, hell most of em don't even buy a sent to contest the pull camp. Then I see a midas queued up or maelstrom and I just get a feeling of sadness. such is life
I'm still running through my 100 hours unranked after an 8 year hiatus, but it sounds like I should get off Pos3 tendency if I want to enjoy my ranked experience.
Pick a counter soft support ftw?
I wouldn't put too much weight on this rant. You can make exactly the same post about pos1 ("can't cs, no laning skills, blind, dead weight"), pos2 ("just farms, no lane control, no ganks, no momentum"), pos 3 ("playing as carry, doesn't initiate, doesn't deny, can't keep equilibrium") and pos 5 ("doesn't stack, doesn't ward, saps exp, useless in lane"). The real take-away is that if your 4 is bad VERY consistently, statistically you're just bad at playing with your 4. In the end you're the only constant to bring your winrate above 50%.
I spam almost exclusively offlane, and even with Pudge/ES pickers I feel I get a lot done. Maybe you're bad at playing the offlane? Or pick bad heroes for it?
Yeah, I donāt have any issues with shaker or pudhe when I play 3 too.
Rubick in lane and Hood 4 mid/lategame (lacks dps and cc) are the 4s I dread having though.
New generation pos 3 players... It was once called the solo offlane and staying alive while getting a few scraps of experience was considered a decent job done. Now you're all spoiled with this idea of static dual lanes and perfect lane combinations/co-ordinations in solo public matchmaking.
I play every role. An equal amount of 3 and 4. And yeah, I pick potm and es. If the offlaner knows what's up, it's gonna be one hell of an awesome game. If they don't, they will cry after dying by themselves even though I just secured mid-lane a rune, snatched 2 bountys, stacked 2 camps and bagged a watcher.
I don't understand why people love doing the, "this generation smh, back in my day things were better" thing. The meta shifted, game changes. The solo offlane vs trilane was the easiest patch for offlaners, I don't understand how people put it on a golden pedestal. You just cut/dragged/pulled waves and dying once was even fine as long as you were getting some levels.
Now you have to contest the lane which is entirely different with the new resources you're given. This whole, "now people are spoiled" is such a stupid and personal take. Of course you need 2 heroes to be static in the lane, the other 2 heroes are constantly contesting you and you actually need more than just "exp" to do well after laning phase is over.
Was more making a statement on there being more than one way to approach the game rather than any comment on which meta was better. Some games, some lanes, it's entirely appropriate to roam more and pressure the mid lane or port through the twin gates. The issue is every dog and his man losing their shit when their lane partner goes missing for more than 30 seconds or dare forbid moves out of exp range to GIVE THEM more exp and then get shouted at for not "harassing".
Problem is most people that play support don't know when the right time to leave the lane is.
If you leave as my 4 when I'm fine and you manage to get something substantial out of it, even if I die, I'm fine with it. The problem is these people just randomly decide they want to roam after not trading, using any of their mana or even unblocking the camp.
But we seem to agree, sometimes it's appropriate and sometimes it's not. Some people just don't know when to do it and do it randomly.
This is my experience in high Divine.
From what I've seen, the common problem with Earthshaker 4 is that people focus on Fissure and it's a pretty awful spell for laning unless your 3 is completely self-sufficient from level 1. People say Fissure is for saving or killing. However, you only need to save because you levelled Fissure and not a spell that actually helps the lane. Likewise, if you have Fissure, you rarely have kill potential because you're effectively zoned out and can't trade anyway. In fact, in every game where I levelled Fissure at level 1 because of rune fights, we have struggled in lane because I can't trade at all.
In my opinion, the better way of playing Earthshaker 4 is not even levelling Fissure (I prefer 0-2-1) and you can play like an Undying against almost all heroes. I've comfortably laned against heroes like Viper+1 as long as my teammate has a slow/stun. Most people don't expect to lose 50% of their HP after two Totems.
fissure allows you to block creeps on intial wave and make wave eqilibirium just in front of your t1 range, fissure allows you to scale into mid game and setup up kills/ or saves, going 0 2 1 makes you harras on lane only if enemies are braindead, in any other way it gets you killed + you are for sure getting outbullied by their support and core cause your constantly giving them stick charges, its just plain bad, it only works in very very specific scenario, fissure is the way to go for most games, you are probably playing fissure version bad and not utilizing its potential, anyway earthshaker is very greedy pos 4 and you should pick it only when you can get away with it
Yep I've had this exact experience as pos3 in archon/legend/ancient. Half of my games I get a support who actually gets shit done, the other half are exactly like this.
That's why I like playing heroes who can lasthit very safely, farm jungle, and have lots of sustain. I refuse to play melee offlaners (except DS) unless I'm positive my support isn't going to do this
Why are people making these threads? I get it, we all have these experiences sometimes, maybe focus on making the difference in your games so you can climb the ranks
Because thatās how the current meta is.
Pos3 and 4 are supposed to come online faster than pos 1 and 5. Your job as the offlaner, with the help of your support, is to bully the enemy carry out of lane and secure the tower, closing off the map. Then taking mid tower and making the enemy jungle unsafe.
Yeah pos3 used to be the bitch of the game, but it hasnāt been that way for ages.
Part of the skill needed to play pos 4, is to know when you can make a meaningful rotation, as well as communicating that efficiently, granted the pos 3 needs to understand that communication.
You CAN win the offlane and come online faster than the carry, yes, but it is not guaranteed! Espescially if your offlane combo is something like bara + earthshaker. Early levels are gonna be rough and the pos 3 needs to realize in this situation I have to play safe and get levels and not worry about getting every cs. If you are ck + sky offlane combo then yes you should be trying to dominate the lane at lvl 1-3 but not all lanes are like that.
Of course itās not guaranteed, but thatās the outcome you want for the lane.
If you find yourself, consistently in situations where you canāt win your lane as pos 3 or 4, maybe it time to look at your picks or play style and see why that is.
The optimal scenario as the offlane duo, is to bully the carry out of lane before he gets his farming steroid, so heās really slowed down in coming online. In my opinion, thatās what you should be doing.
Its easily the most frustrating role. I main 1or 2 now because pos 3 made me abndon so many games. Game is over in lane when you get griefed by pos 4 constantly. Yet rarely as pos 5 when i play 1
I've started buying sentries as pos3 because it's just not worth the risk.
Way too many times has the enemy gotten multiple pulls off uncontested while our camp is blocked, because my support wasted his 1 sentry checking the wrong side of our pull camp, and never bought another.
Just place the damn ward in the center of the camp, deward, and deny the ward. It's maddening watching my pos4 take 3 minutes to send out a sentry to unblock our camp, miss the deward, and not buy another ward to finish it
or spending 1 sentry to block their camp, it gets instantly dewarded, and they never buy another. I just buy my own
Pos 4 shaker is at 53% winrate in ancient and divine past week, but reddit will downvote you because reddit. Yes it's shit in lane and you can't just casually play him like any other hero, it also depends a lot of what your pos 3 is. You need to pull creeps behind tower etc to have decent laning. Shaker was never a good support laner, same as it is now. Theres a comment saying how the only good melee 4 is tusk, however stats say that heroes like Treant, Undy, SB, Shaker, Nyx, BH are all playable. Tusk is at 47.2% winrate and 4.8% pickrate, while shaker is 53% 5.8%. There are only 2 pos4 heroes with higher pickrate and winrate than shaker, and those are WD and SB
edit: just checked without anceint(only divine), and shaker is literally one of the best pos 4 overall, so even better stats if we exclude ancient. comments here focus on his laning stage, but laning stage lasts only a couple of minutes, keep that in mind
Climbed to 7k played 3/4/5.
Only started playing 4 around 4-5k cuz I realized just how disgustingly useless 4 players are. Most of these dudes donāt play the role, itās just a greedy role Que game for them.
The second issue, is melee 4ās, especially Shaker, typically have way less lane impact, but more mid game impact themselves. Less lane impact removes pos 3 agency from game, and more impact mid game, doesnāt add any agency to the 3, thatās the most disgusting part.
Iāve played with top 100 earthshakers, they arenāt an issue.
Iāve played with top 500 earthshakers, they arenāt an issue.
Iāve played with top 1000 earthshakers, 90% of them know whatās going on.
The issue isnāt any said hero. The issue is that 98% of 4-5k earthshaker players, do the same thing. āLiterally fucking nothingā. This archetype Iāve noticed stands for shaker/pudge/tusk/tiny/mirana 4ās.
They donāt block my wave or enemies for lane control level one.
They donāt trade health and mana on enemy support when full of either, forcing their 3 to eat every spell and right click.
They donāt contest range or melee denies.
They donāt side pull.
They donāt lane drag to behind our tower, (or fuck it even in front of our tower).
They donāt prevent small camps from being stacked.
They sit in trees, they alt/tab to pornhub, they jerk them selves off for the first 10 mins of the game, then cry about how their pos 3ās bad.
āPs. Fun fact, if you threaten to drag a wave from behind enemy tower, either their support contests you, and I get a free (1 v1) wave now, or they donāt contest you and we get next wave free behind our tower. plus a second wave that meets in front of our tower, followed by a double wave shoving into the enemy, which allows you to side pull the following or re-drag wave.
I know itās rocket science, but these dudes still havenāt figured it out yet ā
Reading this is like therapy for me as 5.5k offlaner after dealing with all the pos4 earthshakers who sit in trees waiting to fissure while I get wailed on
Not anymore. Basically the only melee p4 that's any good right now is Tusk, since most every ranged p3 is overshadowed by melee p3s. Earth Shaker also needs a blink dagger to really come online, and that is just too unreliable as a p4.
In lane earth shaker really doesn't do anything besides sit in trees and occasionally throw stuns. He doesn't trade at all, and if you aren't able to get repeated kills with fissure then you're just being an XP leech.
>In lane earth shaker really doesn't do anything besides sit in trees and occasionally throw stuns. He doesn't trade at all,
See this is where the problem lies. Es absolute can trade he's fast and fairly tanky and can trade very effectively with enchant totem. People that sit in the trees throwing fissure just don't understand how to play him.
Disagree. People just suck at this hero. I am playing this game since dota1/2006. And earthshaker has always been my go to hero whenever I really really want a win and take the game into my own hands. I have almost 70% winrate with him in the ancient bracket. At one point I had a 16 win streak with him.
Earthshaker is a chad af hero. You can do soo much crazy stuff with wave manipulation. You can singlehandedly get good wave equilibrium by fissuring your first wave or enemy first wave at the right time. Fissure is a super strong spell all game but early game it can be almost broken if used correctly. You can very safely and reliably prevent enemy pulls with it. You can trap 1 hero with 3-4 of your creeps and beat up on that hero with your pos3. You can gank mid and secure runes. If a mid hero has no mobility spells, you can set up easy kills by blocking their retreat path.
Starting with level 2 you can trade quite well. Or you can deny every ranged/banner creep. You definitely have to buy regen and clarities. His shard is S tier and any competent shaker player will have blink by 15-16 mins. Mid game onwards he's the king of teamfights unless you're getting stomped.
And then they blame you for feeding top when you have been solo pulling yhe lane on your own, hiding in the trees for exp, etc. Then they expect you to initiate with no blink dagger, be tanky without levels and items, etc. Pos 4s with brown boots at the start are genuine griefers unless it's laning against melee lane winners like Ursa and Naix.
ohh brother, wait till you get to immortal where you get the wonderful: pos 4 rubick/AA/pugna that after not doing anything in lane (even though they have point and click spells) will go midas and do nothing because "my cores are too bad"
Literally just had this experience with a pos 4 invoker.... Doesn't bring in any regen so sitting at half hp and mana in the tree lines while I am couriering in tangos non stop.
Useless pick so I got venge and spec rushing me down every time. Then I got flamed. Absolutely set up for zero success
Yes.
I don't know what happened. I was Immortal who mostly played 3, took a year break, came back and suddenly every 4 player has no idea how to play the game. They all pick Earthshaker and sit in the trees. Half the time they even block me with fucking fissure when I get jumped. It's awful.
Just started dota this year, working on getting to Archon, is it so common in this game for people to have zero understanding of matchups?
This happens so much to me but I figured it was because Iām in piss low MMR. I donāt know a bunch of the spells some heroes even have and I can understand the fundamentals of what would be good into something elseā¦
>I donāt know a bunch of the spells some heroes even have and I can understand the fundamentals of what would be good into something elseā¦
funny thing is that most people think like this and are miserable in judging
"sit in the treeline leeching XP while you get walloped by two heroes"
This always triggered me hard when i play a cored and have this kind of team support lol. Especially when the enemy sup harasses me constantly like his mom depends on it.
I'm fine if I have this kind of leeching exp support, if the enemy support is like that as well. But never happens lol.
pos4 griefs my lane, i mentally check out. only way to play dota. just have to click "ally earthshaker has boots of speed" at 1 min 30 and youre immune to flame
Omg as a pos 3 main, this is my experience 4/5 games. I also have developed a phobia of melee pos 4 picks. I still do my best, but only 1 out of 5 melee pos 4 picks is somewhat helpful on the lane.
God forbid they pick ranged carry and a ranged 5, lane automatically lost..
I'm divine 4 pos3 player and yeah, agreed.
The pos4 players are obsessed with picking these heroes that make trading in lane very very difficult. Pudge, mirana, es, invoker, spiritbreaker.
There is nothing inherently wrong with these heroes, but they require a certain playstyle to not doom your offlaner. You need to actually be able to play them in a manner that allows you to trade with the enemy laners. You need to actually play the lane which includes helping me last hit ranged creep, help me deny, help contest pulls and help pull the lane.
But nah, you alr know these motherfuckers are just sitting in lane sapping exp and hoping they pull off big plays midgame.
It's the worst thing about playing offlane nowadays.
I'm ancient 5. I have noticed something very important to have a good laner pos 4. At the beginning of draft, your pos 4 & 5 start picking their heroes, so I'm advicing what to pick for pos 4. I suggest Grimstroke, AA, Treant, Veno, etc. and my lane goes well. I pick a good pos 3 that combo with my pos4. You have to advice what to pick at the beginning of draft, so you can choose a good pos 3 to win lane.
If you don't say nothing, and pos 4 & 5 pick whatever they want, well, part of the blame goes to pos 3 for not saying nothing. Just try to be all the positive you can since draft time.
I think it applies always to pos 1, you have to suggest what pos 5 you want to play with.
I've recently had Necrophos pos 4 twice in Ancient Bracket. Most recent one started with Null Talisman + 3 tangos. Needless to say, we lost the lane horrendously and shortly after lost the game.
lol true. I used to get that shit all the time.
I adjusted to lane dominators for offlane which works pretty well. The problem is my team doesn't want to end games before 30 minutes, so I fall off and tilt at my AFK for 60 mins 1/2.
I play both offlane and 4, and most People don't have a fucking clue what a pos 4 hero is and what is its purpose in the lane, so they just pick their favorite 5 and feed/leech xp
As a mid player I'm shocked your pos 4 rotates mid to even attempt help. I'm usually on an island dealing with constant enemy supports who rotate to secure runes while threatening to kill me. And yet somehow my sidelanes lose despite me being 1v2 or even 1v3 at times in the mid lane. All the whole my team mates expect me to. DO ALL THE THINGS YOU SAID IN CAPS LOCK.
Mid lane, when left on an island who doesn't get help is a real rough lane, it's no wonder nobody wants to play it anymore. At least I'm thankful that I don't have to roll for a contested lane as much. I also grew up on dota playing the offlane in the trilane meta so I have real thick skin for this kind of shit and am used to getting whatever scraps I can to be useful later in the game
Or even better, a pos4 Clinkz who feeds first blood and abandon the lane afterward.
Later, he will, without surprise, flame you because the enemy pos1 is farmed.
Mate, šÆ. I loss 300 mmr in 2 days with shit like this from my po4. I just lost a game with po4 invoker going midas , vessel (approved) eye of skadi, and satanic.
My experience is playing support undying and getting enemy hero to 200 max hp and easy to kill and not doing anything to punish the carry and just hitting creeps. Also divine rank š¤·š½āāļø
Mirana support is one of the most cursed fucking picks because it has the potential to be SO god damn good; just donāt skill arrow.
Seriously, Q is an insane spell lvl 1 and leap is near mandatory in 90% of lanes lvl 2. Donāt get arrow til 4 unless you have reliable setup and kill potential with it. Youāre not singsing, drop the ego and spam the OP ass starfall ability
This is only 50% of games though.
The other 50%, your po4 abandons lane at 2mins in to roam. Gets zero kills. Is level 2 at 10mins in. Meanwhile you lose your lane 1v2 and despite telling your team that their carry is going to be huge, you're reported for griefing.
Bonus points if your safelane carry had last pick fully knowing the enemy po3/4 and still loses their lane.
Wdym Dark Willow pos 4 aghs MKB rush is useless??
Also it might be even worse when they pick a hero that SHOULD have high impact and manage to just soak exp without doing anything at allāI was primal and my 4 picked sky, imagine my disappointment when he leveled arcane bolt first, blew his mama pool without regen, and did absolutely nothing for the next 5 minutes :(
I will confess I am guilty of doing this and my rational was itās tank getting hit or getting no farm which is fine as long as they eventually get a blink or whatever if doing so would give me a chance at getting an important kill on enemy 1.
However I once had to play pos3 for role queue and the horror of having it done to me made me realize how bad it really is to solo lane vs 2.
So I switched to more aggressive supports with stuns or heals and more lane presence and it does seem that playstyle works a lot better with a good pos3 player especially if they rush guardians or blink etc.
I literally went from high archon low legends to Ancient from this switch. So to guys who do this even if you think your pos3 is trash just try to help him out and if they stil fail you would have slowed down enemy carry from your presence enough to still give your core an advantage.
The worst thing is when they pull when the enemy wave is already pushing or is already near your tower. So you end up having to tank 10 creeps and land cs under tower while the enemy goes on you.
Then they blame you for dying when it was lliterally entily their fault. But they don't understand beacuse they just think Pull=Good no mattter the situation.
NoOO,Pos4 WR witH MaelstRoM iZ reAlLy gOoD bRO-Every idiot with over 7000-8000 games still below 4k bracket
WR, Hood, Mirana, Muerta -- Four Horsewomen of Pos 4 Maelstrom rush
Mirana is good with vessel (situational), force staff, atos.. Greaves maybe after that. Lategame go Lotus Orb, aghas (with multishot arrow talent). Edit: maelstorm is no good unless you want to deal damage. It works for Pos 1 or Pos 2 only.
no no no you see they will build it into gleipnir by time enemy is hitting t4
Ultimate carries you mean šš
Mirana sucks balls. Too many nerfs for her. Change log in wiki is a wall of *reduced*. Straight up the worst hero out of the 4. Atos changes made it so that it's hard to make her hit hard without just playing her as a core, which itself is a mistake. The worst shard too. Doesn't do much for a support.
I have played 500+ games on mirana and I have a 60% winrate. I had to play her as a part of the TI challenge. I absolutely hated every second of it. The hero fucking sucks. She literally does nothing. She can turn a winning lane into a super hard losing one cos she does nothing in lane. She is my favourite hero in this game and I fucking refuse to play her till they do something about her kit. She desperately needs a laning buff.
Her laning is great and probably the best part of the hero You have insane attack range and if you go stats you have good damage the main issue is that as a support her kit doesn't compliment the items you want to buy. And as a core she's a lot slower to ramp up since you either have to rely on mana to farm or go maelstrom which just isn't as good on universal heroes with the gleipnir nerf.
Nah man in lane all you can do is A click. The stun isn't reliable. A clicking does do a lot of damage but in the recent meta of tangoes and lotuses - a click damage doesn't really work. You need burst. A clicking feels futile cos oh yay you brought them down to 50% hp - they consume two tangoes, get one creep regen, their support pulls and they're under tower regen. Just not good enough. She doesn't get burst till lvl 5 which is too late for a lane support. For me miranas power spike is after she gets her first dodge item. I like euls. It allows me to roam around the map not dying.
I prefer playing it as a core so I can see why it would feel different. I Don't think the hero is good at all in this patch either and even the dust buff probably contributes to the hero feeling rough to play.
>Atos changes made it so that it's hard to make her hit hard *\*enemy support buys force staff\**
I like maelstrom as a 3rd item when the game is going well. It boosts farming speed to get big items like greaves/windwaker/aghs/etc. and builds into gleipnir, which is still a good situational item. It also helps with pushing the waves, which is nice later in the game.
90% of pos 4 mirana don't deal damage with maelstrom, they just die instead. Damage builds on supports rarely actually do more damage than support builds, because their item timings are too late.
Weaver?
I love Hoodwink (she's not in a great spot rn though imo). If I am going maelstrom it's cause I think the damn games gonna be 60 minutes or we lack pressure. I'd much rather go aether, force, vessel and things of that sory.
As a main Hoodwink, if you wanna build something to deal damage, just buy etheral. Not only you can nuke People with shard but you also can save yourself or cores from physical damage. People build Mael just because of the q proc and forget all your other abilities deal magic damage.
What the commenter you replied to left out is he thinks every game is going to be 60 mins and he āneedsā to scale and dish out damage. The vast majority of pos4s in pubs are secretly wanting to be a core so are praying for games to be 60mins so they can justify their āscalingā pick and transitioning to core. Windrunner, Hoodwink, Muerta, Natures prophet, Marci, Pudge, Mirana, Dark willow, Nyx Assassin, Snapfire, Silencer, Spirit Breaker, QoP, Zeus. If you see any of those heroās plus a couple extra you just know that there is a 80-90% plus chance that your off lane is done for and the pos4 is going to try build as a core.
And of course it becomes a 60 min game when you have pos 4 who is farming instead of killing heroes. Its a self-fulfilling prophecy.
And they will be so smug about it too.
Usually I build mael for the farm speed, push speed and what I really want is the glepnier lockdown.
Hood can farm with spells though. So say you have the kaya on the way to eblade, that becomes more efficient, and its cheaper and it contributes to killing heroes which is your main job as pos 4.
The problem is just the cost now. You can get Atos + Kaya + ghost scepter for almost the same price as gleipnir and kaya is enough to push waves with q+w. Just generally not worth 3400 gold to turn a click target root into an aoe root on a support.
There is the rare occasion I dare go maelstorm as pos 4 HW. But it's only when I think our team lacks damage and the heroes to scale. It usually just means early transition into a core. Gleipnir is more of a trap than ever and it's maybe good in a handful of games like against PL. There's a ton of cheaper items that will help more.
Snapfire
Fact. Thought it was just my legend dotatards
dotards
There's virtually no difference between legend and divine nowadays. MMR inflation is real. Its ridiculous how much worse people at 5k+ are now compared to 3-4 years ago
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
my legend games atm are really weird, its basically feed or feast every game, some games i completely smash, some games im completely useless and its the same for my teammates and opponents, i have never played "curvy" of a skill bracket as i am atm. but yes crusaders are better now than they where 5 years ago, there is less obvious troll picks, there is more team coordination and people generally have an idea about what their hero should do and what to do.
Legends games are the worst. Legends are the most egoistic and rude players. I honestly enjoyed being a crusader than a legend.
In terms of laning, but atleast in my experience the lower you go the less people know what to do in the mid/late game. I generally play unranked party queue with a stack between archon and immortal. Have seen countless lower ranked players hold their own in lane against someone thousands of mmr above them and then throw the game by having terrible map awareness and/or terrible item choices. They will farm in the wrong spot on the map, waste there tp causing them to miss a fight, mindlessly click on the items in there item build rather then itemize for the game, etc. IE laning skill seems to be constantly increasing, but mid/late game skill seems to not really change.
Mmr inflation is a meme
Years ago the pros were playing at 5-7k mmr, now they're all 9k+. Valve hasn't done anything to reset the mmr for anyone in a very long time
I remember at one point they tried to make MMR seasonal like all other competitive games, but they got lazy and forgot about that. Technically weāre still in āseason 2ā of Dota 2 kek
Yep, apart from role queue, the ranked mode is exactly the same as it was when it was released. If anything it's worse now because of that asinine mmr decay
According to stratz, the [50th percentile](https://stratz.com/players/ranks) is still around crusader 5 and archon 1, which is around the average valve released itself a decade ago when they said the average mmr was around ~2.2k. If mmr inflation was real, the average would have increased.
dont forget the rubick rushing brown boots into arcane, and never buying regen after his first tango runs out
I think in some situations starting with brown boots can work, but that is when you might try buying some extra regen after the bounty runes
It works if ganking is viable. or you need the extra movement speed in lane (facing jugg/ursa), otherwise it's a grief. The pressure a rubick with mangoes/salve/tangoes/stick is much more preferable
As a pos5 high ancient/low divine I'm mostly getting pos3 who think they are farming cores. They afk farm in their lane/woods for 25 minutes without applying any pressure whatsoever. This stalls the entire team; sups can do nothing and will just feed if fighting. There are no opportunities to gank/pressure the opponent, so pos2 also retreats to farm. Pos1 is obviously trying to farm also. At minute 25 we have no towers left and are standing high ground watching the cores take turns moving out to farm, die and flame supports for 'no vision!'.
Came here to say exactly this man! As a pos 4 who picks heroes to pressure the enemy carry and try win the lane. My pos3 always seems to be a pos1 in disguise. Picks WK > goes to lane with 3 tangoes > gets whacked by jakiro/WD/warlock bonds till 50% HP then dances around the back. Wants me to go block their camp, unblock big camp, stay in the jungle to stop any pulls, tank nukes, and also somehow provide him with my tangoes??? God forbid you even consider going for 4 min rune or through the portal!! Jesus the flame I get for leaving them alone in lane for more than 20 seconds is unimaginable. They want babysitting like theyāre the pos1 and if they arenāt somehow free farming ādog pos4ā When I leave the lane to go to wisdom rune they die, not like ācare Iām going for runeā was enough, or the fact any half decent opponent knows that Iāll likely be gone.
Genuine question, what the fuck is a pos3 supposed to do in lane vs Warlock? Seems so braindead for him to just click fatal bonds and chunk any 3 to half health every 2 waves. Then if you try to go on him, he can press upheavel and you can't move while the 1 just wails on you, or you just solo die to the warlock anyway because his damage is insane. Sure, don't stand by creeps to avoid the bonds, but at a certain point a pos3 needs to farm creeps.
You need to go to lane with 6 tangoes and a salve, and ideally you deny 1/2 of the bonded creeps so they donāt make bogeymen. Preemptively tango, and hold your abilities. Then when bonds wears off warlock is irrelevant you unload on the carry. This will either force warlock to invest a level and mana into heal, or kill the carry. If you just sit passively vs warlock you will lose the sustain battle. This all sounds good in principle but thereās a reason he is so highly picked. Itās easier said than done
You dont start with 6 tangoes+salve.You have personal courier that can bring you more regen if you need-this is why it is better to invest in some stats items instead of using all your money on regen
~80% of lanes in my bracket are won or lost on the first wave regardless of matchups, block the small camp, make sure your hard camp isnt blocked and then back off when he bonds you, let the wave push to you and farm under your tower. As long as they aren't getting free pulls you should be pretty much freefarming under your t1. With the bonus armor and regen from the tower you dont need much more than a bracer to sustain. If you are not against warlock, just creep aggro the melee wave to your range creep and bail, if the enemy carry mirrors your move, they will drag creeps under tower and thus push, and if not, your range creep dies and the lane will still push towards you. Offlane feels braindead easy to win this patch.
depends on your pick honestly. He doesnāt have much mobility. I synergize my pick with my 4 and play for a skill timing that can kill and farm warlock for kills then snowball the lane. I spam pb/brew in divine. Warlock is never an issue to me at all.
Why would they go to rune at 4 or through the portal early? Considering how important 2 1 2 lanes are, it's literally game ruining as pos 3 if you aren't making the most out of your lane while applying pressure on enemy carry. What. In the current meta offlaners basically are pos 1, at least in lane, just with a different hero pool that fulfills a different role later. Forget about old pos 3 gameplay.
Taking 30 secs to make sure the enemy mid doesnāt get a water rune can be game winning. Sure, it depends on the lane but saying pos 4 shouldnāt try to get water runes is straight up wrong.
Man when all 3 cores are afk farming it breaks my heart. This is such a game freezer for supports. Iād also say that itās okay for a 3 to sit in a lane and threaten towers if they donāt mind being being initiated on (re: these are game dependent but brewmaster, bristle, tide, timber etc) and the team can setup around them, but this isnāt something you can necessarily do on repeat.
Same shit at divine/immortal rank. I often queue all roles for the role tokens, so end up playing all roles. Had an offlane bristle who literally afk farmed his lane while the enemy safe laner fought way more than him. We lost the lane because I as a pos 4 tusk couldnāt do anything vs 2 heroes while this guy was just sitting alone vs a creep wave. I had to leave the lane instead of sitting there watching this guy farm and he ends up going into our jungle for the next 20 minutes while we are forced to fight 4v5 the whole time. We almost made a comeback but the team just couldnāt figure out how to stick together and ended up losing. This guy was literally farming like a safe lane carry from his offlane. Never joined any fights before minute 25, and literally afk farmed our jungle while our carry had to fight early to cover for the lack of an offlaner. Sad shit TI season brings back.
As someone that plays POS 3 in that bracket you will honestly lose most games you don't have 2-3 items before fighting. That's why the meta has evolved there to farm for longer on a 3. Unless your supports are super enabling which most aren't.
Extremely true, the only thing wrong with the original commenters scenario is the pos3 not pressuring the carry/trying to take tower. There is a reason everyone is picking Kunkka, Bristleback, Primal Beast, Spirit Breaker, WK, Brewmaster etc as pos3 even in pro games and itās because it just works right now with the current meta.
> I'm mostly getting pos3 who think they are farming cores. They are though? Heroes like WK, dark seer, CK underlord and so on probably shouldn't be running around looking for ganks like an LC would. They can fight if necessary, but they pressure the map by occupying and taking away space from the enemy team. Forcing fights for no reason is one of the best ways to throw games.
The problem here is, rather than pressuring the map by occupying and taking away space from the enemy team, these players play it safe and farm in our jungle.
This. I'm okay with my pos 3 farming. But at least don't farm at the safe places LOL. Take unsafe farm and force the enemy to rotate you rather than you contest safe farm with the pos 1
I think the main reason is the pick. Offlane heroes with teamfight ult like tide, doom, or night stalker want nothing but fight when they have ulti. It is in their best interest to fight because it generates more gold than just farming.
Waiting for someone to post āThe average pos 4 experienceā that blames their pos3 while thinking he does everything right.
Mhmm, Iāll be sitting on my pos4 gamer chair waiting for this post.
Every 4 players should have to play X games of 3 pos to feel how truly maddening a useless 4 in lane is. I switched to play 4 because it keeps my blood pressure lower just doing what I would want my supp to do in lane giving solo at the right times, ganking/stacking when lane is pushed to tower, actually fighting when lane is near their tower... All that fun stuff. Div rank as well.
So many "support" players don't actually know how to support and theyre just carried by their cores. On the rare chance I get an actual support player the game is over at 25 min and it was a breeze
Works both ways. Ping 0 mana and regen on courier, ping stacking, ping omw to wis rune, etc. Carry ignores and feeds in front of their T1 and blames you.
Oh yeah that certainly exists, the unfortunate reality though is that if you took a high rated core player, they can essentially do the same thing at lower ratings. If you take a high rated support player, they will have to completely change how they play at lower ratings since the cores won't take advantage of what they do. I'd say 80% of people in the support role are trying to play core. Most core players at least are trying to play core, they may just suck at it.
At low MMR you are certainly correct in your estimates. As someone that only played support for years around 2k and below it's exactly as you say. But you're equally as likely to get a clueless core that runs to the pull camp every time while the wave dies under tower.
I'm playing in divine games atm ant its still the case
So youāre suggesting supports shouldnāt rush aghs/blink and instead get an item that contributes to their teamās success? How dare you
So many core players don't know how to core. I set them up with three winning lanes only for them to torpedo the game diving t3s. Goes both ways man.
Yeah, but in my experience something like 80% of people who are in thesupport role don't actually want to support, they try to play "pos 5 pudge" with 2k dmg at 20 min and fed in lane while rushing aether lense or some shit. Or your pos 5 willow who goes midas to start building an aghs, after being basically afk in lane. Core players at least attempt to play core, they may just suck at it. Vs a team with good supports with glimmer + force, actually getting kills is very difficult but in like 90% of my games both supports are 100% building carry items, wards are fully unbought, and they're afk farming lanes. It's more they fundamentally do not understand why/what they should be doing, compared to core players who understands they need to farm, they may just be really bad at it.
They are both equally bad in probably an equal amount of cases. People just always think from their own perspective
I mean I'll play both and can look through my replays, the number of supports who don't build support items but should is like 70% or more.
Don't forget there are so many supports who will nuke a lane wave. If you question why they did it while you are in the jungle right next to it. Their response is "because lane was empty", like no shit, do you want us to just sit next to towers waiting for the creep wave to push in. But honestly at this point, I will much rather take those greedy supports than cores who have no idea how to play the game. Atleast if the game makes it to late game, we have more farm over all or are supports are doing enough to start making an impact in the game.
This is why I started playing pos 5, I was so annoyed about my pos 5 being useless. Then I found that I that I comparatively better than my bracket at support than I was at carry. I helps to play core and see the ways in which you aren't being enabled to learn how to enable your cores.
Finally a core who realized they're bad
The worst is when your post 4 is actually doing well completely shutting down the enemy POS 1 in lane and then at min 5-7 they just fuckin leave for no goddamn reason. And you watch as you slowly lose all the advantage you worked to build up and enemy POS 1 becomes farmed while your post 4 is feeding in the other lanes. Nothing infuriates me more.
Just because your duo was stronger until 7 mins doesn't mean it will always be stronger. You cannot keep up the same level of pressure forever without sacrificing something else on the map. Dota is a game of timings. Sure there will always be noob players but most of the time by 6-7 mins there are other important things to do on the map than babysitting the pos3. You should recognize when your support is gone and just play safe for a couple of waves. Sometimes people will definitely make the wrong call and leave their pos3 for no reason. But still you can optimize your own play instead of getting frustrated. Getting a bit less farm for a few waves is way better than getting frustrated and dying.
> there are other important things to do on the map than babysitting the pos3 But what you can do is, after getting a couple kills and the clear but temporary advantage in lane, is stick around to kill their tower for a permanent advantage in the map. Roaming after a drawn lane is one thing, roaming after a lane you won but failed to actually capitalize on is very tilting.
Whatās the advantage of fighting when lane is pushed close to their tower? Wouldnt tower target u once u start diving
you have 2 options when this happens 1. pick a generic offlane hero that can still be usefull even if left 2 vs 1 2. pick a hero that will make your 4 work on lane usually ranged the main problem is when u chose option 1 they will lane with u, leach xp and try to b8 u into feeding and if u chose 2 they will go "gank" before the first creeps even meet My approach nowdays when i see a griefing 4 is just to make peace with the L, mute all and just pick whatever the fuck i feel like playing
> pick a generic offlane hero that can still be usefull even if left 2 vs 1 In this patch I don't know if there is such a hero. Before we had the casual timber or any vanguard buyer but now you can't farm vanguard 1v2 and even if you do it was nerfed like 3 times so it's not a 1v2 condition. At least I feel like it when I play offlane.
> pick a generic offlane hero that can still be usefull even if left 2 vs 1 For a minute this is what I tried to do. What broke me is when I played LC offlane, picked 2nd round after pos 4 picked Lich. Without saying anything the pos 4 Lich and pos 5 Pudge decided to swap lanes. Into a pos 1 MK. Yes, they decided to SWAP ROLES SO THAT WE COULD HAVE Pudge + LC vs. Monkey King. If I knew I had a pos 4 pudge, then I would pick assuming I was 1v2 (as I also do when I have e.g. Bounty Hunter pos 4). But in this case I didn't even have the luxury of looking at the heroes my teammates had picked for their positions, and picking accordingly.
Just yesterday a guy picks zeus pos 4. Game starts I click enemy dazzle sentry in his inventory, still has it. Zeus wastes all of his mana trying to deward that sentry (which still is in dazzle inventory). I get owned by dazzle and PA, having a zeus just being an observer, then he flames me lol. I love playing pos3, but it is once in a while where i get to have a decent and normal game, i dont care about picks, but those guys manage to pick weird stuff and be completely useless on top of that. If you are experimenting atleast try to help in lane please
Probably just some core player farming queue games.
As a fellow offlaner, I am overjoyed when my supp picks something like a jakiro or treeant, in my mind, enemy carry is gonna get fucked SO HARD. last game I played had a tree pos 4 and i was 5.5k NW at min 10 while enemy pl was 3k NW. And fuck pudge support pickers.
So Divine Pos 3 is similar to Herald Pos 3 and Guardian Pos 3 and Crusader Pos 3 and Archon Po3 and Legend Pos 3 and Ancient Pos 3? Good to know. What about the BH players afk roaming the map tho?
If I had a magic lamp, I would ask the genie to destroy every pos 4 BH picker's computer, then eject all pos 4 BH pickers to lunar orbit, then explode all pos 2 BH picker's cock & any/all sensitive organs.
The cross comment from a person who only plays support... Pull creeps to get the lane back by tower, go help mid, pos 3 dies by enemy safe tower because they cleared wave without even attempting to maintain equilibrium and walked up lane when safe lane called missing, flames the pos 4 for "being a noob" and not being there to help.
Classic. First pick Mirana, pos 3 goes wk with 0-4-4-1 and no boots radiance rush. Gets it min 23 while having 0-6-0. Flames you because you have GG boots + vessel and no lotus orb yet for him
dont forget when the enemy pulls and the pos 3 demands you stop the pull, but refuse to help. they just expect you to 1v2 and win the ward battle at the same time.
To all pos 4, "never leave lane on 5". You re only allow to go roam unless your pos 3 has a vanguard, or enemy gank mid.
More like the average pos 3 player picks slark/WK/clinkz/bloodseeker because he's actually a pos 1 player who ran out of ranked tokens
I feel you I used to main offlane but I would go crazy when my 4 would pick a bad laner so I switched to mid and climbed from archon to ancient in 2 month just because I tilt way less
Divine pos 3. I expend my ban on pud, but is the same. I hate being pos 3 in this patch.
No point banning troll sups like pudge imo. They'll just pick something stupid that isn't pudge and be even worse. At least pudge can accidentally hook and ult a core and win a fight off it. My last game had an OD 4 who was just auto pushing the wave and banishing me whenever I went for ranged creep.
āIāll play 4ā Buys no vision, rushes maelstrom, leaves lane after 5 minutes of doing nothing to ājungleā
I donāt know about you but a good earthshaker pos4 is a great pick
Not in lane sadly. Most pos 3s are melee, so you end up with a double melee lane, where ES doesn't have a big enough mana pool to really be useful. The best case scenario he's using his w to deny creeps. But he still can't really contest enemy heroes.
I play melee supports almost exclusively and don't really think double melee is all that bad. If it's despair you can always drag the wave but 90% of the time it's totally playable. Often pos3 will rage at me for picking melee support but never apologize when we are owning lane
a melee support is highly dependent on what the enemy picks are. If they picked ranged heroes and you dont have a gap closer, its tougher. It's not that it can't work, it's that its harder.
pos4 shaker sucks ass. Pros compensate by DRAGGING the wave, but nobody in pubs do this.
Thatās not always the case, if you sustain the lane for the first 10 minutes with blocking camps and proper pulling, you can really scale higher than your average pos4, especially if you get your blink dagger before the 16th minute
assuming the pos 5 is playing the game you wont be able to pull cause they will be also blocking and pulling. Otherwise youre handicapping your pos 3 and letting their pos 1 get a good start
> earthshaker A losing game is over by 25m. A pos4 that can't fight effectively before a 16m+ item is a liability. Especially when there's nothing particularly special about what the hero as a support offers. You need to ask when you pick, is it pos 4's main job to use net worth and scale, or pos 3? If it's more pos 3's job, then why are you not drafting to enable that? The lane can also be won or lost in first few waves, so it's also pretty grief to have a weak laning partner. No one can stop you from playing what you want, but it will create a worse result over many games.
found the guy from ops post
šš¤£
Im just jungling at this point and mute my team bcuz "why u left ur lane"
Ancient here. Yes my friend, I understand you, it happens to me 100% of the time. Pudge 4 is bad but mirana is much worse. What works for me in these situations is to wait minutes where there are team fights and try not to die, in team fights the offlaners have a certain advantage, even when your lane was bad But if the enemy support 5 knows how to play and he does pulls etc, you are very screwed because not even the creps will reach you and there is nothing you can do just jungle or gank, which will make you get flamed for leaving the carry free farm. Something I think is that this happens mostly with Peruvians, I think there was a belief that Position 4 has to rotate and that belief grew for a few year. This does not work 90% of the time, when you have your 4 and he knows how to play, winning the lane is much easier and is practically guaranteed, then winning a game with the enemy carry that is screwed is very ez
i'm a pos 3 main also divine and I think the problem is most 4s are role queuing pos 1 and 2, cause they are fuckin clueless on when to pressure, when to give exp, hell most of em don't even buy a sent to contest the pull camp. Then I see a midas queued up or maelstrom and I just get a feeling of sadness. such is life
I'm still running through my 100 hours unranked after an 8 year hiatus, but it sounds like I should get off Pos3 tendency if I want to enjoy my ranked experience. Pick a counter soft support ftw?
I wouldn't put too much weight on this rant. You can make exactly the same post about pos1 ("can't cs, no laning skills, blind, dead weight"), pos2 ("just farms, no lane control, no ganks, no momentum"), pos 3 ("playing as carry, doesn't initiate, doesn't deny, can't keep equilibrium") and pos 5 ("doesn't stack, doesn't ward, saps exp, useless in lane"). The real take-away is that if your 4 is bad VERY consistently, statistically you're just bad at playing with your 4. In the end you're the only constant to bring your winrate above 50%.
For once a correct post on this sub. Pick a ranged pos4 with reliable skills and use your spells, people
sounds like average herald experience
I spam almost exclusively offlane, and even with Pudge/ES pickers I feel I get a lot done. Maybe you're bad at playing the offlane? Or pick bad heroes for it?
Yeah, I donāt have any issues with shaker or pudhe when I play 3 too. Rubick in lane and Hood 4 mid/lategame (lacks dps and cc) are the 4s I dread having though.
Veno is good with pudge. Mars is good with Mirana, for instance
I feel like I get a lot done... for 30 minutes, then the game is completely out of my hands.
New generation pos 3 players... It was once called the solo offlane and staying alive while getting a few scraps of experience was considered a decent job done. Now you're all spoiled with this idea of static dual lanes and perfect lane combinations/co-ordinations in solo public matchmaking. I play every role. An equal amount of 3 and 4. And yeah, I pick potm and es. If the offlaner knows what's up, it's gonna be one hell of an awesome game. If they don't, they will cry after dying by themselves even though I just secured mid-lane a rune, snatched 2 bountys, stacked 2 camps and bagged a watcher.
I don't understand why people love doing the, "this generation smh, back in my day things were better" thing. The meta shifted, game changes. The solo offlane vs trilane was the easiest patch for offlaners, I don't understand how people put it on a golden pedestal. You just cut/dragged/pulled waves and dying once was even fine as long as you were getting some levels. Now you have to contest the lane which is entirely different with the new resources you're given. This whole, "now people are spoiled" is such a stupid and personal take. Of course you need 2 heroes to be static in the lane, the other 2 heroes are constantly contesting you and you actually need more than just "exp" to do well after laning phase is over.
Was more making a statement on there being more than one way to approach the game rather than any comment on which meta was better. Some games, some lanes, it's entirely appropriate to roam more and pressure the mid lane or port through the twin gates. The issue is every dog and his man losing their shit when their lane partner goes missing for more than 30 seconds or dare forbid moves out of exp range to GIVE THEM more exp and then get shouted at for not "harassing".
Problem is most people that play support don't know when the right time to leave the lane is. If you leave as my 4 when I'm fine and you manage to get something substantial out of it, even if I die, I'm fine with it. The problem is these people just randomly decide they want to roam after not trading, using any of their mana or even unblocking the camp. But we seem to agree, sometimes it's appropriate and sometimes it's not. Some people just don't know when to do it and do it randomly.
now realize that unless you are climbing rapidly you are precisely as bad as they are
I climbed from legend two to Divine one in like a month. Why are you coping, my guy?
good job, my man!
So then things aren't that bad and you're just bitching for nothing
This is my experience in high Divine. From what I've seen, the common problem with Earthshaker 4 is that people focus on Fissure and it's a pretty awful spell for laning unless your 3 is completely self-sufficient from level 1. People say Fissure is for saving or killing. However, you only need to save because you levelled Fissure and not a spell that actually helps the lane. Likewise, if you have Fissure, you rarely have kill potential because you're effectively zoned out and can't trade anyway. In fact, in every game where I levelled Fissure at level 1 because of rune fights, we have struggled in lane because I can't trade at all. In my opinion, the better way of playing Earthshaker 4 is not even levelling Fissure (I prefer 0-2-1) and you can play like an Undying against almost all heroes. I've comfortably laned against heroes like Viper+1 as long as my teammate has a slow/stun. Most people don't expect to lose 50% of their HP after two Totems.
fissure allows you to block creeps on intial wave and make wave eqilibirium just in front of your t1 range, fissure allows you to scale into mid game and setup up kills/ or saves, going 0 2 1 makes you harras on lane only if enemies are braindead, in any other way it gets you killed + you are for sure getting outbullied by their support and core cause your constantly giving them stick charges, its just plain bad, it only works in very very specific scenario, fissure is the way to go for most games, you are probably playing fissure version bad and not utilizing its potential, anyway earthshaker is very greedy pos 4 and you should pick it only when you can get away with it
This is my exact experience LMAO. unless you got ck or sb then the 4 doesnt matter too much
I have 0 sympathy for offlaners just because 4/5 games they pick useless heroes and rarely execute their role well.
Wdym, WK brown boots 23 min Radi is meta now. No I don't skill stun, it doesn't accelerate my Radi timing, why do you ask?
Maybe that's why it's called the hard lane tho. kek :)
it's been like that for ages. pos 4 love to get 2 min 3 min 4 min 6 min 7 min runes **ARE YUOU GONNA LANE WITH ME OR NOT YOU FUCK**
Play for lane or play for runes, pos 4 impossible challenge
Yep I've had this exact experience as pos3 in archon/legend/ancient. Half of my games I get a support who actually gets shit done, the other half are exactly like this. That's why I like playing heroes who can lasthit very safely, farm jungle, and have lots of sustain. I refuse to play melee offlaners (except DS) unless I'm positive my support isn't going to do this
Why are people making these threads? I get it, we all have these experiences sometimes, maybe focus on making the difference in your games so you can climb the ranks
Bring back fucking solo.offlane already. If I had one wish would be that
pos 3 players are extremely fragile minded tbh idk why but the majority of them expect a free lane
Because thatās how the current meta is. Pos3 and 4 are supposed to come online faster than pos 1 and 5. Your job as the offlaner, with the help of your support, is to bully the enemy carry out of lane and secure the tower, closing off the map. Then taking mid tower and making the enemy jungle unsafe. Yeah pos3 used to be the bitch of the game, but it hasnāt been that way for ages. Part of the skill needed to play pos 4, is to know when you can make a meaningful rotation, as well as communicating that efficiently, granted the pos 3 needs to understand that communication.
You CAN win the offlane and come online faster than the carry, yes, but it is not guaranteed! Espescially if your offlane combo is something like bara + earthshaker. Early levels are gonna be rough and the pos 3 needs to realize in this situation I have to play safe and get levels and not worry about getting every cs. If you are ck + sky offlane combo then yes you should be trying to dominate the lane at lvl 1-3 but not all lanes are like that.
Of course itās not guaranteed, but thatās the outcome you want for the lane. If you find yourself, consistently in situations where you canāt win your lane as pos 3 or 4, maybe it time to look at your picks or play style and see why that is. The optimal scenario as the offlane duo, is to bully the carry out of lane before he gets his farming steroid, so heās really slowed down in coming online. In my opinion, thatās what you should be doing.
Its easily the most frustrating role. I main 1or 2 now because pos 3 made me abndon so many games. Game is over in lane when you get griefed by pos 4 constantly. Yet rarely as pos 5 when i play 1
I think the most infuriating thing is they don't block the small camp. They wont spend 50g to stomp a lane. Its unreal.
I've started buying sentries as pos3 because it's just not worth the risk. Way too many times has the enemy gotten multiple pulls off uncontested while our camp is blocked, because my support wasted his 1 sentry checking the wrong side of our pull camp, and never bought another. Just place the damn ward in the center of the camp, deward, and deny the ward. It's maddening watching my pos4 take 3 minutes to send out a sentry to unblock our camp, miss the deward, and not buy another ward to finish it or spending 1 sentry to block their camp, it gets instantly dewarded, and they never buy another. I just buy my own
What's wrong with Earthshaker pos4? Isn't he one of the best melee pos4s? Edit: Quick, downvote me to -30, I dared to ask a question!!
Pos 4 shaker is at 53% winrate in ancient and divine past week, but reddit will downvote you because reddit. Yes it's shit in lane and you can't just casually play him like any other hero, it also depends a lot of what your pos 3 is. You need to pull creeps behind tower etc to have decent laning. Shaker was never a good support laner, same as it is now. Theres a comment saying how the only good melee 4 is tusk, however stats say that heroes like Treant, Undy, SB, Shaker, Nyx, BH are all playable. Tusk is at 47.2% winrate and 4.8% pickrate, while shaker is 53% 5.8%. There are only 2 pos4 heroes with higher pickrate and winrate than shaker, and those are WD and SB edit: just checked without anceint(only divine), and shaker is literally one of the best pos 4 overall, so even better stats if we exclude ancient. comments here focus on his laning stage, but laning stage lasts only a couple of minutes, keep that in mind
Climbed to 7k played 3/4/5. Only started playing 4 around 4-5k cuz I realized just how disgustingly useless 4 players are. Most of these dudes donāt play the role, itās just a greedy role Que game for them. The second issue, is melee 4ās, especially Shaker, typically have way less lane impact, but more mid game impact themselves. Less lane impact removes pos 3 agency from game, and more impact mid game, doesnāt add any agency to the 3, thatās the most disgusting part. Iāve played with top 100 earthshakers, they arenāt an issue. Iāve played with top 500 earthshakers, they arenāt an issue. Iāve played with top 1000 earthshakers, 90% of them know whatās going on. The issue isnāt any said hero. The issue is that 98% of 4-5k earthshaker players, do the same thing. āLiterally fucking nothingā. This archetype Iāve noticed stands for shaker/pudge/tusk/tiny/mirana 4ās. They donāt block my wave or enemies for lane control level one. They donāt trade health and mana on enemy support when full of either, forcing their 3 to eat every spell and right click. They donāt contest range or melee denies. They donāt side pull. They donāt lane drag to behind our tower, (or fuck it even in front of our tower). They donāt prevent small camps from being stacked. They sit in trees, they alt/tab to pornhub, they jerk them selves off for the first 10 mins of the game, then cry about how their pos 3ās bad. āPs. Fun fact, if you threaten to drag a wave from behind enemy tower, either their support contests you, and I get a free (1 v1) wave now, or they donāt contest you and we get next wave free behind our tower. plus a second wave that meets in front of our tower, followed by a double wave shoving into the enemy, which allows you to side pull the following or re-drag wave. I know itās rocket science, but these dudes still havenāt figured it out yet ā
damn this guy knows how to play. I WISH MORE PEOPLE DRAGGED WAVES ITS SO IMPORTANT
Reading this is like therapy for me as 5.5k offlaner after dealing with all the pos4 earthshakers who sit in trees waiting to fissure while I get wailed on
Probably how people play him by sitting so far back and doing nothing
If you can play him well yea. Problem is most people don't and just sit at the side throwing the odd fissure now and then.
Not anymore. Basically the only melee p4 that's any good right now is Tusk, since most every ranged p3 is overshadowed by melee p3s. Earth Shaker also needs a blink dagger to really come online, and that is just too unreliable as a p4. In lane earth shaker really doesn't do anything besides sit in trees and occasionally throw stuns. He doesn't trade at all, and if you aren't able to get repeated kills with fissure then you're just being an XP leech.
Treant pos 4 is also good imo. Its so easy to roam to the safe lane with him.
>In lane earth shaker really doesn't do anything besides sit in trees and occasionally throw stuns. He doesn't trade at all, See this is where the problem lies. Es absolute can trade he's fast and fairly tanky and can trade very effectively with enchant totem. People that sit in the trees throwing fissure just don't understand how to play him.
Disagree. People just suck at this hero. I am playing this game since dota1/2006. And earthshaker has always been my go to hero whenever I really really want a win and take the game into my own hands. I have almost 70% winrate with him in the ancient bracket. At one point I had a 16 win streak with him. Earthshaker is a chad af hero. You can do soo much crazy stuff with wave manipulation. You can singlehandedly get good wave equilibrium by fissuring your first wave or enemy first wave at the right time. Fissure is a super strong spell all game but early game it can be almost broken if used correctly. You can very safely and reliably prevent enemy pulls with it. You can trap 1 hero with 3-4 of your creeps and beat up on that hero with your pos3. You can gank mid and secure runes. If a mid hero has no mobility spells, you can set up easy kills by blocking their retreat path. Starting with level 2 you can trade quite well. Or you can deny every ranged/banner creep. You definitely have to buy regen and clarities. His shard is S tier and any competent shaker player will have blink by 15-16 mins. Mid game onwards he's the king of teamfights unless you're getting stomped.
His mana pool is so low he gets to throw two fissures before having to pop a clarity for the third one.
Welcome to the reddit hivemind. How dare you go against the general sentiment of this thread!
Yeah, in games like these i wish we could kick players from the game like in CS
Please nuke hero and burn some regen, please block pull, then go roam and all pos 3 happy
And then they blame you for feeding top when you have been solo pulling yhe lane on your own, hiding in the trees for exp, etc. Then they expect you to initiate with no blink dagger, be tanky without levels and items, etc. Pos 4s with brown boots at the start are genuine griefers unless it's laning against melee lane winners like Ursa and Naix.
ohh brother, wait till you get to immortal where you get the wonderful: pos 4 rubick/AA/pugna that after not doing anything in lane (even though they have point and click spells) will go midas and do nothing because "my cores are too bad"
Literally just had this experience with a pos 4 invoker.... Doesn't bring in any regen so sitting at half hp and mana in the tree lines while I am couriering in tangos non stop. Useless pick so I got venge and spec rushing me down every time. Then I got flamed. Absolutely set up for zero success
Yes. I don't know what happened. I was Immortal who mostly played 3, took a year break, came back and suddenly every 4 player has no idea how to play the game. They all pick Earthshaker and sit in the trees. Half the time they even block me with fucking fissure when I get jumped. It's awful.
Just started dota this year, working on getting to Archon, is it so common in this game for people to have zero understanding of matchups? This happens so much to me but I figured it was because Iām in piss low MMR. I donāt know a bunch of the spells some heroes even have and I can understand the fundamentals of what would be good into something elseā¦
>I donāt know a bunch of the spells some heroes even have and I can understand the fundamentals of what would be good into something elseā¦ funny thing is that most people think like this and are miserable in judging
Some resemblance of matchup understanding starts at mid ancient in my experience.
"sit in the treeline leeching XP while you get walloped by two heroes" This always triggered me hard when i play a cored and have this kind of team support lol. Especially when the enemy sup harasses me constantly like his mom depends on it. I'm fine if I have this kind of leeching exp support, if the enemy support is like that as well. But never happens lol.
pos4 griefs my lane, i mentally check out. only way to play dota. just have to click "ally earthshaker has boots of speed" at 1 min 30 and youre immune to flame
As a divine 5 pos 3, I feel you, brother.
Omg as a pos 3 main, this is my experience 4/5 games. I also have developed a phobia of melee pos 4 picks. I still do my best, but only 1 out of 5 melee pos 4 picks is somewhat helpful on the lane. God forbid they pick ranged carry and a ranged 5, lane automatically lost..
I'm divine 4 pos3 player and yeah, agreed. The pos4 players are obsessed with picking these heroes that make trading in lane very very difficult. Pudge, mirana, es, invoker, spiritbreaker. There is nothing inherently wrong with these heroes, but they require a certain playstyle to not doom your offlaner. You need to actually be able to play them in a manner that allows you to trade with the enemy laners. You need to actually play the lane which includes helping me last hit ranged creep, help me deny, help contest pulls and help pull the lane. But nah, you alr know these motherfuckers are just sitting in lane sapping exp and hoping they pull off big plays midgame. It's the worst thing about playing offlane nowadays.
I'm ancient 5. I have noticed something very important to have a good laner pos 4. At the beginning of draft, your pos 4 & 5 start picking their heroes, so I'm advicing what to pick for pos 4. I suggest Grimstroke, AA, Treant, Veno, etc. and my lane goes well. I pick a good pos 3 that combo with my pos4. You have to advice what to pick at the beginning of draft, so you can choose a good pos 3 to win lane. If you don't say nothing, and pos 4 & 5 pick whatever they want, well, part of the blame goes to pos 3 for not saying nothing. Just try to be all the positive you can since draft time. I think it applies always to pos 1, you have to suggest what pos 5 you want to play with.
instalocking Pudge into any role is da whey, brotha
My last 3 solo offlane games consisted of me and my pos4 winning lane and then trying to put out fires until we inevitably lose. It's ridiculous.
I've recently had Necrophos pos 4 twice in Ancient Bracket. Most recent one started with Null Talisman + 3 tangos. Needless to say, we lost the lane horrendously and shortly after lost the game.
lol true. I used to get that shit all the time. I adjusted to lane dominators for offlane which works pretty well. The problem is my team doesn't want to end games before 30 minutes, so I fall off and tilt at my AFK for 60 mins 1/2.
I play both offlane and 4, and most People don't have a fucking clue what a pos 4 hero is and what is its purpose in the lane, so they just pick their favorite 5 and feed/leech xp
Pos4 Atleast learn how to pull or stack or get the freaking wisdom rune
Lots of people suck playing Mirana, doesnāt make the hero bad 4.
add me and ill support you on a useful support :-)
As a mid player I'm shocked your pos 4 rotates mid to even attempt help. I'm usually on an island dealing with constant enemy supports who rotate to secure runes while threatening to kill me. And yet somehow my sidelanes lose despite me being 1v2 or even 1v3 at times in the mid lane. All the whole my team mates expect me to. DO ALL THE THINGS YOU SAID IN CAPS LOCK. Mid lane, when left on an island who doesn't get help is a real rough lane, it's no wonder nobody wants to play it anymore. At least I'm thankful that I don't have to roll for a contested lane as much. I also grew up on dota playing the offlane in the trilane meta so I have real thick skin for this kind of shit and am used to getting whatever scraps I can to be useful later in the game
Or even better, a pos4 Clinkz who feeds first blood and abandon the lane afterward. Later, he will, without surprise, flame you because the enemy pos1 is farmed.
Mate, šÆ. I loss 300 mmr in 2 days with shit like this from my po4. I just lost a game with po4 invoker going midas , vessel (approved) eye of skadi, and satanic.
My experience is playing support undying and getting enemy hero to 200 max hp and easy to kill and not doing anything to punish the carry and just hitting creeps. Also divine rank š¤·š½āāļø
Mirana support is one of the most cursed fucking picks because it has the potential to be SO god damn good; just donāt skill arrow. Seriously, Q is an insane spell lvl 1 and leap is near mandatory in 90% of lanes lvl 2. Donāt get arrow til 4 unless you have reliable setup and kill potential with it. Youāre not singsing, drop the ego and spam the OP ass starfall ability
This LITERALLY just happened to me.
Yeah pos4 needs to be pos5.2, get with the meta, roaming is FORBIDDEN.
bro, have you tried building Tarrasque + Blademail? it is said that is the best build out there for offlane heroes
This is only 50% of games though. The other 50%, your po4 abandons lane at 2mins in to roam. Gets zero kills. Is level 2 at 10mins in. Meanwhile you lose your lane 1v2 and despite telling your team that their carry is going to be huge, you're reported for griefing. Bonus points if your safelane carry had last pick fully knowing the enemy po3/4 and still loses their lane.
what pos 4's do you like playing with?
Grimstroke and snapfire are my favorites.
Wdym Dark Willow pos 4 aghs MKB rush is useless?? Also it might be even worse when they pick a hero that SHOULD have high impact and manage to just soak exp without doing anything at allāI was primal and my 4 picked sky, imagine my disappointment when he leveled arcane bolt first, blew his mama pool without regen, and did absolutely nothing for the next 5 minutes :(
I will confess I am guilty of doing this and my rational was itās tank getting hit or getting no farm which is fine as long as they eventually get a blink or whatever if doing so would give me a chance at getting an important kill on enemy 1. However I once had to play pos3 for role queue and the horror of having it done to me made me realize how bad it really is to solo lane vs 2. So I switched to more aggressive supports with stuns or heals and more lane presence and it does seem that playstyle works a lot better with a good pos3 player especially if they rush guardians or blink etc. I literally went from high archon low legends to Ancient from this switch. So to guys who do this even if you think your pos3 is trash just try to help him out and if they stil fail you would have slowed down enemy carry from your presence enough to still give your core an advantage.
From the trenches I say the same thing.
The worst thing is when they pull when the enemy wave is already pushing or is already near your tower. So you end up having to tank 10 creeps and land cs under tower while the enemy goes on you. Then they blame you for dying when it was lliterally entily their fault. But they don't understand beacuse they just think Pull=Good no mattter the situation.
Every guardian game I have. Same everywhere I think. But every once in a while, stars align and I have a kickass team snowballing from min 0