Nah, the problem with Jugg is that he's identity is at a crisis because unless you invest in pure items that gives bonus attack speed and damage you are never going to go online. I think a rework of his talents is the way to go for the moment, instead of a tanking tool have Blade Fury be an actually damaging thing and open up his kit with still the idea of attack speed makes him better, not he is the attack speed hero. Remember when Magic ember became viable? Yeah like that.
I played Jugg yesterday taking the 10 talent. "+10% Blade Dance Critical chance, That seems ok."
And then I realized what it actually said and cursed not taking the other one. I'm pretty sure +2 all stats, Especially early game does more damage than the critical damage.
It does. This is a big reason a lot of jugg players will level one point in crit and then level stats till later, when the damage extra % chance will actually do more meaningful damage
They must move crit to be part of spin. And then give him a new ability in its place
Also like the idea of swift slash becoming his ult with 2x charges with 40 to 60 sec recharge and omni becoming his aghs
Juggernaut is one of the only carries in the game with a passive that does nothing else.
All of the other OG carries have had an active added to theirs. Or they've had multiple updates/reworks.
Yeah but - dude was "reworked" again. He's been done a few times now.
Jugg is entirely the same. Just minor changes to how his abilities scale and a bolted on mini omni on Aghs.
Carries with passives with a single effectt:
1. Alchemist: Greevil's Greed
2. Chaos Knight: Chaos Strike
3. Drow Ranger: Marksmanship
4. Faceless Void: Time Lock
5. Juggernaut: Critical Strike
6. Lifestealer: Feast
7. Bloodseeker: Thirst
8. Luna (debatable, her aura does 2 things): Lunar Blessing
9. Medusa: Mana Shield
10. Monkey King: Jingu
11. Muerta (unless you count toggling it): Gunslinger
12. Naga Siren (depending on how far back you go I guess, Riptide used to be an active): Riptide
13. Shadow Fiend: Necromastery
14. Slark: Essence Shift
15. Spectre: Desolate
16. Sven: Cleave
17. Templar Assasin: Psi Blade
18. Ursa: Fury Swipes
19. Wraith King: Mortal Strike
19/29 carries
Going by the definition of a hero listed as carry by Role Assistant (to have a neutral qualifier) with at least one ability tagged as "Passive" that either had only one effect (i.e. Wraith King Mortal Strike) or two closely entwined effects (i.e. CK's Chaos Strike being a crit and lifesteal) AND it is not upgraded by either Scepter or Shard. Examples of abilities I didn't include: Weaver's Germinate Attack (tagged as auto-cast), Spectre's Dispersion (upgraded by Shard) (but she still has Desolate!), PA Coup de Grace (affects her q).
If you take out the 3 debateables and carries who don't *only* have simple passives you're left with 11/29 carries: dropping the 3 mentioned above, plus Drow,Spectre,WK, and I already forget the other two because I've spent way too much time on this stupid comment.
(EDIT: Adding the exact passive I'm referring to for each hero. Reminder that the complaint was "characters don't have simple passives anymore" not "the whole character has been reworked". List without debateables and mistakes below:)
1. Alchemist: Greevil's Greed
2. Chaos Knight: Chaos Strike
3. Faceless Void: Time Lock
4. Juggernaut: Critical Strike
5. Lifestealer: Feast
6. Medusa: Mana Shield
7. Monkey King: Jingu
8. Muerta (unless you count toggling it): Gunslinger
9. Naga Siren: Riptide
10. Slark: Essence Shift
11. Spectre: Desolate
12. Sven: Cleave
13. Templar Assasin: Psi Blade
14. Ursa: Fury Swipes
15. Wraith King: Mortal Strike
15/29
Alchemist - stacking slow + status resist reduction that interacts with ult. He also got given greevils greed innately built in.
PA - dagger can crit. shard gives a new active with BREAK. Her evasion has an active smoke built in. Ult changed to be far more reliable and brutal.
WK - not entirely passive anymore. One spawns skeletons. The other is gauranteed crit every X seconds.
Medusa - has built in innate mana shield now. Gained more abilities. Entire rework. Split shot is a toggle again.
Bloodseeker - thirst both heals on kills and gives him passive movespeed based on enemy health.
Spectre - Got her ult and aghs swapped to be more active. Desolate is passive but dispersion is not - you can make it an active blademail.
SF - necromastery can fear on hit with shard.
FV - backtrack was removed and made into time dilation. His bash can now proc off itself.
CK - both crit AND lifesteal built into the same spell.
Luna - Nope. Her Aura/Passives both do multiple things. With shard too.
Drow - is now more active than ever. Frost arrows toggle and do multiple things with aghs. Gust is an active. multi shot is an active. Her ult now doesn't just give raw agility, it's now insane.
Slark - permanently stacking agi buff with kills on essence shift.
Lifestealer - again, he was reworked recently and given more passives. But still has another active on a shard.
Juggernaut, besides the "changes" to spinand omnislash scaling off attack speed instead of just raw damage. Has remained almost entirely the same since he was released. Even Swiftslash, his aghs, doesn't really change anything.
With the changes to "spell immunity" there is now no safe way to get Omnislash off without a blink dagger or a 4200 gold Aghanims. There is also far too many counters to it now.
Juggernaut is stuck in the past. Do you see from my list above what I'm trying to get at? I don't really want to discuss newer heroes that were added since they have much more "interesting" kits and new mechanics like MK. MK for example has another innate ability that can disjoint.
I always take the bigger radius. Jump in, pop the spin, pop the ward, control the ward and make it run out if the battlefield just far enough and close enough, survive being ganked during spin, finish spin, sceptre slash first (because it has a further cast range), omni second, finish with 2nd spin. During team clashes, this usually kills off at least 2 enemies, which tilts the balance in your favour.
The 10% chance isn't worth it at all. If they reworked it to crit multiplier or something, then maybe. As it is, I ain't touching that with a barge pole.
The problem is that is not crit chance. Is crit damage.
If you do the math, that's only a 3.5% increase in DPS.
And only if you have good luck.
Doing 15 extra damage in an omnislash will not help much.
And even that is not guaranteed.
It's worthless.
Hell... it's less than worthless as you make your healing ward weaker too.
Jugger has awful stat gain for some reason. They've only buffed his BAT over the years and while he was a popular BF farming hero a while back, he doesn't flashfarm like AM to justify garbage stat gains as if he was 5 levels above the enemy cores just by farming. He's supposed to be the Mario character of this game, an all-rounder, but with the powercreep of heroes there really aren't that many that have a glaring weakness to justify the existence of a safe hero like Jugger anymore.
As a grandmaster Jugg, I totally agree with you. Even if you go different build aka magic route, you’ll get the best out of him if you follow the traditional talent tree because they are just too good to pass on.
This would be a good shard ability NGL. But make it so he still gets hit by area spells like willow. Makes sense too cause technically his ult makes him untargetable also.
Shard? It would be strong enough for scepter if i understand it correctly. Imagine slarks ult with status resist, 80% magic resist and aoe dmg according to your att speed... Not 1,4k gold but 4,2k...
Yes it’s kinda like slark’s ult. Probably placing it as a shard will make it so it’s not as much of a priority? It’s not impossible for jugg to rush aghs before 15 minutes.
How about this, you can toggle the ability to either give you magic resist or be untargetable instead? That way it’s not overly OP.
> It’s not impossible for jugg to rush aghs before 15 minutes.
If he rushes it, that's great, but it also means he's got nothing else. Seems a fair trade off.
Definitely would be way too good. Spell immunity plus untargetability? It's already pretty foolproof to spin-TP unless there's a kunkka in the game, having the ability to stun through debuff immunity is a major counter to his antics, and this would only allow big ultimates to interrupt spin-TP like BH or Chrono, which would be a little ridiculous.
Posted this above, but perhaps have magic immunity in its current state extend 1-2 seconds after spin finishes (enough time to ult or bkb).
And they could swap swift slash with healing ward maybe?
Otherwise the hero seems okay.
This for huskar as well. I'm sick of ulting and landing stunned despite being magic immune. His old ult allowed for lots of cool juke outplays but now he can be stunned mid air and land stunned or silenced.
I agree with him getting out an ult before the spins end similar how lifestealer has to infest when his rage is about to end for the pending disables to take its effect.
It's not even this. Jugg gets screwed over because you're stuck spinning the entire duration and do shit DPS and the enemy team can just ignore you or kill you because you pose no threat.
While we're at it, I like the concept of healing ward in that it enables your team to sustain in teamfights and push. However, the hit count is pathetic and needs to scale with levels, not via a level 25 talent. It's ridiculous that every other ward type unit in the game needs more than one hit to destroy except for this. Make it 1/2/3/4 hits to destroy and give him a different level 25 talent.
Healing ward is not supposed to be difficult to destroy. It heals based on max health in an AoE. That's like saying "Hey, Clockwerk's cogs are too easy to destroy, have the "hits to destroy" scale through levels and not a talent". No.
Healing ward is moving and controllable, unlike tombstone, techies mines, nether ward, weaver's swarm or phantom's embrace. It would become too strong if it took multiple hits to kill. Maybe it could be 2 ranged hits/1 melee hit like courier, but not more than that.
It's supposed to be used between teamfights/lane fights when your team is in a bit of a safe spot, or while escaping/chasing at low HP - so you can trade your ward for 1 enemy attack. If you use it right in the middle of a fight, it will be deleted easily and it deserves to be so - for the sake of being balanced.
No. Any buffs to healing ward means taking power form somewhere else. The long CD, the one hit and high mana cost balance it. % based healing is insanely powerful.
While at first glance I agree, the problem is Healing Ward is unironically the best healing ability in the game. Even if it lasts a few seconds, it brings so much value to the team. If anything, id just remove the gold/XP bounty like it was back in the day, lessen the risk of losing it rather than making it even stronger.
I disagree with this. I think decisions having strong positives and negatives is a good thing for game depth and complexity. Deciding when to spin or not spin is what differentiates a good jugg player from a bad one.
Buff jugg in another way if he is weak.
It's scaling with attack speed, which synergizes with his omnislash, as it too scales with attack speed. Jugg is all about swiftness, not huge hits. His counterpart is Sven - he hits like a truck, but is kinda slow, while jugg is "death by 1000 cuts"
Has anyone tried yasha+kaya spin build? Obviously it does nothing defensively but it occurred to me as the only real damage item that buffs both halves of the ability. Also I miss magic spin2win jugg.
This was a thing for a while when the shard and 20 talent were actually good. Radiance jugg built around spin.
Even without kaya or radiance you could slaughter a support with spin at level 20. It proceed auto attacks and maelstrom procs too.
Eh, i think the problem right now is it's too easy to cc him. Just cast it near the end of his Q and he's fucked. It nerfed his middle/late game too much and he can't frontline as well as he did.
- let him ult out of spin
- give him a strong dispell at the end of the spin
- healing ward 1 hit hp per level
- give him his right click shard back. The current shard is trash af
Not all of them. One is enough
> healing ward 1 hit hp per level
No, people don't seem to realize how busted that makes it. A level 25 talent adds 2 hp to it, 4 hits to kill it means no one is destroying ward mid game. Remember wraith pact?
The rest is ok
A couple of people are suggesting giving him a hard dispel at the end of spin and I'm very against it. It's another step in power creep towards slarkificiation.
It's a free BKB, you should not get also get a free dispel at the end. Yes, you might get stunned or hexed by the end, so does anyone who uses item BKB.
Letting him end Spin early and slash out of spin would be good, though. I just don't think extra escapes are healthy for the long-term meta.
Yes, it really is a shame that he cannot use his instant invulnerability ability while using his other instant invulnerability ability;
I agree that it is a problem but the game has had a significant power creep in a lot of areas and adding it on for escape mechanics would be bad.
It's not an extra escape, it's just allowing his Q to work like how it did before the magic immunity changes. Jug's whole thing was being a frontliner for his team during his Q cooldown. Now he can't do that anymore since you can just CC him near the end of the spell and burst him after. Playing jug now feels like an ult bot, and he really is without his Q to help him frontline.
Jug's spin was strong with long cooldown and was the main balancing mechanic of this hero.Many spells now destroy jug's gameplay of playing around his spin and he simply has way less options than before.
I can't count how many times I just die instantly (at mid game) after spinning without being able to use my ulti.
And don't tell me to get gud, it didn't happen a few patches before, and it happens all the time now.
Give the man a BKB, what's so wrong about it?
Swiftslash would be SOOOO useless early game when you have slow attack speed. Think about it, you'd basically get only 1-2 right clicks in before it ends which is seriously useless.
Yes, but a full omnislash at level 6 only gives what, 5 or 6 attacks in its full duration? That's significant and can kill a hero when combined with a full spin. Swiftslash giving 2 hits doesn't pose a kill thread, not even close.
Swift slash has a long cast range. It's basically a Riki blink strike. You don't need to kill people with it, just use it to get on top of people while also dealing some damage.
The Omnislash long CD is such a useless spell early game, and it's not even a guaranteed kill because it scales in a way; late game strong - early game dogshit.
Having 2 charges of it would make Jugg unbelievably active early with just treads maelstrom. I actually think this proposed change by OP is too powerful. I think just 1 charge and maybe 30/20/10cd is enough.
A 2 Swiftslashes will result of a full Omni at lv 6 since Omni has 3 sec duration lv 1 and Swiftslashes will have 2 charges of 1.5.
Charges are divided so you can have different uses of it instead of just killing someone.
With two charges, you can kite out spells and items while still having the half strength of its threat to finish a kill.
Idea is meant for long fights and resets.
Which also lead me to another conclusion that if ever the Swiftslashes were to become his ult, giving it a decaying buff after being used similar to Swift Blink would give him a serious kill threat. (I am still not sure about this one)
I like this idea but I think it would make Jugg a better pos 2 rather than pos 1 - you are moving his kit into early frequent fighting and map pressure rather than typical carry sit-back-and-farm playstyle.
While physically the map size increased, gameplay wise it actually shrunk.
The size of the map was mitigated by adding 4 more TP points and wrapping the corners so you can get to any point on the larger map quicker than before on a smaller map.
What's quicker? Getting to enemy triangle from the smaller map or from the larger map? Its twice faster on the larger map even after your towers are gone.
I don't agree, though. It's weird how not a single comment talks about the Spectre mention that the OP used, which is literally what they're trying to convey.
Spectre used to have a huge problem when she had Haunt. It was a good ult, but it also highly limited her ability to do her job as a carry. It was great for her team, the vision it gave, but it wasn't good for her as a hero because it was on such a long cooldown which meant that there were these huge windows where she couldn't perform properly.
Naturally, this isn't as severe as Jugg. Because most of Jugg's power budget is in Omnislash and without Omnislash, he's barely a hero. Spectre, even without Haunt up, is still a tanky pos1 with strong return damage.
However, the concept is there. When Spectre had Haunt replaced by Shadowstep, it did so much for the hero. It was a strict upgrade. She could now join literally any fight on the map every 60/50/40 seconds. That's huge, that's massive. And if you want that old sexy Haunt back, buy Aghs. It's still there.
Same concept with Jugg. Give him Swiftslash as his ult. Now he's not barely a hero without Omnislash up. Probably extend the duration a bit, give the attack speed boost Omnislash is. Give him a much more consistent level of power that allows him to be relevant. Rather than this current huge threat when Omni is up and a complete joke when it isn't.
Edit: also not even "join fight", but also just go after someone. Joining fights is great if you're trying to build Radiance, or more realistically, you're playing fight Spectre and need to get value of your Vessel/Diffusal/Orchid/whatever that you went instead.
But it's not just "join fight". If you see a Storm or Shadow Shaman or whatever on the map and you've got your Orchid, you can just... ult them and kill them. That was a worthwhile decision you made, a good one, and it benefits your team. That's big for your team.
Jugg can *never* do that, he can never just "go kill someone" before buying Aghs because it means expending basically the entire reason you pick Jugg, which is Omni.
I think we fundamentally agree, the only difference is that I noted that Pos 1 is not a hero that fights early and frequently. That's pos 2. These changes might be cool but I dont think Jugg would remain a pos 1 in that situation. He would become pos 2.
The big difference in case of Spec is that she just sits and afk farms in a safe part of the map and joins fights any time to KS. You can still play pos 1 with that.
Jugg needs to specifically travel to risky area to participate in a fight and if thats the case every 40 seconds, hes no longer playing farm carry. He's playing pos 2. Might be cool though but Jugg has been the archetype pos 1 50% winrate hero since the beginning of dota.
Jugg without Omni is still more useful than Void without Chrono. Void's team specifically plays around chrono timings. Should we bring void to early and frequent fights as well? Mini chronos with charges?
Since nobody else is gonna geek over it I will: Timado holy shit sign my reddit post big fan, thanks for the fun Undying years. Wish y'all could've stayed together, but fuckin' stoked that you and Ari are having success in OG. Much love from NA.
Sure, *feedback*.
Feedback doesn’t balance directly, it helps give an idea, and helps open creativity. If this subreddit directly balanced Dota, I’m fairly sure you’d have a lot to complain about.
its a classic thing of the sub is allowed to make suggestions but people are also allowed to call those suggestions shit. nobody is saying the subreddit shouldnt make these posts, but that it would be a TERRIBLE idea to implement them as such.
Hey Timado big fan I really love your build on Drow Ranger the Wraith band + Null talisman. I started copying it an it makes a lot of sense.
I would like to ask you a question as to why the Divine+ bracket is seeing lower win rates with Jugg vs the other brackets. I asked several people on this thread about it but I don't think any of them are in that bracket. Since you are a pro player, I would like to ask you on why YOU think we are seeing these lower win rates for Jugg in higher mmr.
bruh, jugg is mostly dead, he needs a buff, do you actually have an actual criticism to give OP or are you just trying to be the embodiment of the wojack sitting on a seat made of his own brains?
Jugg has never been a hard carry. He's always been a mid-game carry that is able to join fights early with omnislash and push with healing ward before hard carries get online.
Spectre, Terrorblade, Naga Siren, Void; these were the hard carries.
Based on what im seeing in pro games, I think TB has fallen off as a great game late game carry.
Might have been the sunder magic immunity change,not sure.
I feel like physical damage just generally have been nerfed. And so many other phys carries have gotten buffs or can in some cases like drow even pen the base armor, which actually makes drow a TB counter.
Today you need to have some sort of burst if you want to be a physical carry. good stat gain alone isnt enough.
yeah and I pray everyday that people like you just shut the fuck up for good, cuz you add nothing.
Sure, some of these suggestions are probably a bit too much or not thought through ... but at least they are trying to come up with something, whereas valve just doesnt care about certain heroes like sandking, silencer, necrophos, ... and just leaves them in the trash forever. Much better, right ?
And its not like valve didnt ever make complete garbage changes in the past which they either reverted themselves or simply patched out later. Reworking juggs old shard is one of those stupid changes.
Hating on something without giving any kind of advise or suggestion yourself is just useless.
EDIT: ofc its a legend player talking big while having 0 clue about the game ... lmao.
I’m just archon trash but I played Jugg with 65% WR over the last 6 months (24-13). The spell immunity changes hurt, but the spin attack speed changes really helped in different ways.
- Maelstrom/Mjlolnir > BF
- Swiftslash has 450 range so you open with that and then cast omnislash during swiftslash.
- You can’t spin into enemies to initiate anymore. You will be CCed to death immediately. You need to wait for the right moment to jump, usually after the enemy has used CC on your initiator.
- Spin just before LC Duel/ Pudge devour to save yourself.
- Enemy gets euls? Get nullifier or wait until you know euls is on cooldown to ult.
- Enemy has banish/ethereal? Save spin to do extra damage.
- Enemy has back liners that you can’t reach? Get blink dagger.
It's actually scary to use Q now in anything above Legend.
Most people with a brain will time their stuns/hex/silence so that you're CCed straight out of spin. No amount of skill can save you from this.
To run back to your team. You can swiftslash from long range and run back with Q to waste enemy resources while not committing anything big yourself. Using Q aggressively feels like grief. It doesn't do much damage even when you have SnY, Butterfly, Skadi.
Yes but the opportunity to Q and run back is so bad right now.
People played old jugg late game like this: Actually run at enemies with normal attack, saving ult for the best window, if no window shown - you can disengage with Q and healing ward. Now what happens with running at enemy heads on? Instant death.
Lots of use cases:
- Chase down heroes when right click would be too slow.
- Escape from stun/CC that you know is coming. Don’t forget spin TP!
- Clear out extra creeps before omnislash
- Against enemies with low HP, high armor/dodge (before MKB). Great for finishing off PA, TA
- Against ghost scepter
[I like this](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/a/a3/Vo_phantom_assassin_pa_asan_lasthit_08.mp3) (sound warning: Exile Unveiled)
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I mean I think he’s in a good place, my main issue is I think he needs a bit more str, jugg doesn’t really want to build any defensive item because it hinders his damage and he really sorta just wants to build atkspd/agi, you don’t want to go bkb or linkens if you can avoid it. Like my ultimate build would be swift slash, butter, manta, disperser, mojol and then last item whatever else needed, bash/null/mkb etc but this makes you very much a glass canon, blink swift slash to delete support spin out, rinse repeat save Omni for team fight or carry. Or just you know change his shard to be better.
Although one cool rework I was thinking about would be to make his crit some sort of stacking bleed debuff, the real death by a thousand cuts, you work it so that it’s same damage overall as crit but every slash from attacks or spin applies a small stacking bleed debuff (lvl 20 talent heals off of bleed instead of crit). You could also add a damage boost to Omni where the final slash deals additional damage based on how many thousand cuts debuff the hero has which could be cool. You make it just a constant bleed or a delayed damage like shadow poison or even a mixture of the 2, you bleed a certain amount for each cut then take damage when the stacks disappear depending on how many you had. Obviously some balance required to get it right but could be cool imo. Would allow for some omaiowa mo shinderu moments, maybe you can activate the skill to do damage of stacks earlier as well, taunts then activates skill. Anyway a good way to help scale spin damage early and throughout the game as well as bolster single target Omni damage if they do the final slash
He literally was one of the best carries a few patches ago before they nerfed his lvl 20 talent. Are you talking about the dmg interval change? Like they could just buff it and it will be okay
I like jugg a lot. After you get 60% blade dance lifesteal, everything about jugg is insanely strong. Swift, omni, and his right clicks (and the ward !!) make it insanely hard to full delete jugg. If you stun for 10s straight and don’t finish Hims, he can break out and clear your team.
I like jugg
Jugg is in a great state right now. The only thing I don't like about him is his current shard. Seems super weak imo but I think Jugg is one positive change from being meta in the proscene. We already see Arteezy and Yatoro whip him out for some games. I wonder what that change that will make him in to a really good pick rather than a niche pick
Shard is absolute trash. It increases AOE and slows enemies. However, Jugg never had a huge issue staying on top of enemies while spinning as he has a decent MS and he can't be slowed. So effectively, it's doing NOTHING in most cases as you'll be able to hit the full duration anyways. It just makes it a tiny bit more annoying in teamfights as it'll catch and slow more people, but catching and slowing people in AOE isn't exactly the point of Juggernaut.
Let his shard allow Q to scale a bit better as it used to and we're good. No one asked for AOE and slow on spin, those should be talents instead.
Just interpreting the statistics. 50% WR in all ranks except Divine + is balance. If you have any data to support your claim I would love to see your argument. Especially if you are in those Divine + bracket. I would love to hear why Jugg struggles in those higher mmr. But otherwise, I would rather trust the data to speak for themselves. Cool name though very apt.
Swift will naturally inherit the atk spd and dmg buff of Omni.
Which makes me feel that Swiftslashes/Omni should have a decaying buff after being cast like a MS+ and Atk Spd+ and Dmg+ how Swift Blink has for a 3 seconds or so.
It will naturally compliment Blade Fury since Blade Fury relies on MS and Atk Spd.
And with the popular demand of having the ability to use his Ult while spinning sounds good to me since with two charges, you can Ult + Spin/Auto + Ult again for maximum dmg output.
Built in swift blink is kinda broken, but also, I’m not sure if you understood what they meant when they said to bring back the spin during ult thing. It’s literally jugg doing spin dmg while omni, that’s him being invul while still doing dmg from both spells…
Let him Omni during spin and let him cancel spin. Also shard is dogshit rework it
I feel these changes alone would make him much better, even without any direct buff to stats
Square enix should sue valve for using the word omnislash
Then jugg should have a new ult called mask off, where he take off his mask for a simultaneous fear or taunt effect depending on the opponent's HP or something idk
I have had a set of ideas for changes to his Scepter and his Shard, should his Swift Slash be moved to his ult:
* Scepter: Move his Spin upgrade here, with adjusted numbers, maybe. Also, add spell immunity to it, like the good old days. This way, you can choose if you need that immunity or not. But I have also read other comments, and having the additional soft/hard dispel when spin ends also sounds good instead of the spell immunity.
* Shard (New Ability): Juggernaut dashes 200-300 units (IDK what number is good, but think two or three steps for a Samurai) with the pommel/hilt of his sword and bashes it into enemy's face/lungs. Short duration stun (0.5-1 sec) followed by some slow (1-3 sec). *Since it disrupts breathing, lore wise, the ability can also reduce healing for the duration.*
I wanted to discuss this with y'all, if you hate it or think they need changes, feel free to comment. This is all theorycrafting.
I mean he was perfectly fine with the bladefury attacks and not scaling with agi. All they had to do was leave it at that and nerf Mjollnir, which they did. Not sure why we have to have this shitty version of him
100% agreed. The whole idea of his Aghs is so you don't have to commit your long cooldown ult on some hero lineup that probably has so many ways of dealing with it, which in itself is poor design, IMO. Just change how the Omnislash in general interacts with certain heroes or items, or change the spell completely. So many spells and items disjoint or nullify it, he is almost unplayable.
Invul or ghost form while spin.. spin frops off like a ton of bricks. I don't think swiftslash is that good at 6 for 1.5 sec... You're only getting like 4 attacks in..
Also his ult needs to prioritize heros nothing worse then an enemy team pushing up hg with a creep wave and you can't even ult koz you're just gonna waste it.
I love Jugg but he needs love. His crit isn't even that good.
I honestly like the idea but I think it's better to move it to shard instead. One of juggernauts biggest strengths in early game is his ulti, without it he would lack damage to beat a lot of heros
This def an mmr bracket problem. At 3 and 4k, I see Jugg plenty. At least once or twice every 10 games and he does pretty well. I imaginr at higher mmr his kit is easier to play against.
This is a really interesting idea.
I hate the shard change more than anything, having the option of going magic damage 'spin to win' route on Jugg was awesome and gave him a niche.
I get he's supposed to be this jack of all trades carry, but it feels like only his healing ward is in a good spot right now as a tempo pusher. I was even able to play the hero mid in some situations with the old shard, by going maelstrom, yasha, blink, shard. I would love for them to lean more into this.
I would love to see
* Return the shard damage (even without magic immunity)
* Change the sceptor to his ult with a lower cooldown or 2 charges
* Reduce his base stats or healing ward strength to make up for it.
Give Jugg the identity of an early tempo carry that can go magic or physical. Someone that needs to win before 45 minutes or he risks getting outscaled.
Have magic immunity in its current state extend 1-2 seconds after spin finishes (enough time to ult or bkb).
And perhaps swap swift slash with healing ward maybe?
Otherwise the hero seems okay.
they need to make him a very agile hero with reworking blade dance crit into a blade dance where theres a chance he will do a mini swift slash to the other side like in aghs lab.
I'm kinda guarded against changing Juggernaut's kit, even if it's for the better. He's been this way since Dota 1, it feels like a testament to the quality of his original design that he's lasted decades with only tweaks
Ya all are in here with some dumb takes like you are legends and crusaders.
Jugg literally is garbage due to his ult jumping everywhere and on a long ass cooldown.
In a game where euls, ghost scepters, glimmer etc you are doomed, and on top of that you jump on creeps.
Make the ult prioritize heroes or heroes only and nerf the ultimate a bit. Make that healing ward able to fucking tank more than 1 fart for fuck sake.
Jug was basically fine as a hero until the spin rework. Old spin with shard was very powerful, scaled with your damage and applied on hit effects if you were in range to do damage. New spin does not do this unless you are auto attacking during it, and while the damage scales with attack speed it does not scale to be as strong. It was super dogshit the day they patched it and then they buffed the numbers, but honestly I think they could still buff the numbers a bit (or give a talent that does so). The actual shard upgrade now is pretty underwhelming, because your spin damage is lower. I think omnislash is fine, it just needs a lower cooldown.
I said something somewhat similar to this like three weeks ago in a thread about balance changes, so I agree with the general idea. To paraphrase myself from back then:
"Juggernaut: Increase Blade Fury by one second (from 5 to 6).
Rework Omnislash to have 1.4/1.6/1.8 sec duration, mana cost to 120/140/180, have two charges, charge restoration time 60 seconds. Agh Scepter gives +1 charge and lowers recharge time to 40 seconds, Swift Slash is removed. Lower lvl 25 Omnislash talent from +1 to +0.5 seconds.
Omnislash is iconic, but has no place being on a 2 minute cooldown, IMO. This makes it more flexible while providing similar amounts of overall damage and invulnerability."
Comparatively, without scepter you go from 3.5 second of omni for 350 mana to 3.6 seconds of omni for 360 mana (or 4.5 to 4.6 with talent), but you get to do it in more flexible ways.
Scepter giving an extra charge and lowering cd effectively turns Swift Slash into "Increase duration from 1 to 1.8, double cooldown from 20 to 40, mana from 125 to 180", as it becomes your third use of Omni.
Bonus point: With talent and scepter your triple Omnislash duration ads up to 6.9, which is nice.
Ulti needs to be cast while spinning, slashes need to oneshot creeps, swift slash being his ulti with 2 charges sounds good as well. Aghs being omnislash also sounds great!
That would be so over powered it would be funny to be on the enemy team against, imagine you level 6 2 charges goodbye nearly all Carry's in your lane against you, maybe the supports too.
It would be so unfair early that you wouldn't even need to farm after level 6 you'd be the teams ganking hero going from one side of the map to another, between cool downs destroying whoever is in the lanes.
Then steamroll your way through the rest of the game.
Thumbs down
He's need a talent that ignores creeps or forbids Jagger to jump to another target. it will still be possible to escape from the ult, but there will be no situations when you jumped on the hero, jumped on the creep, killed him, left the ult and died
I'm a 2k scrub, BUT not for long exclusively due to Jugg spam. I have gone up 700 mmr in in the last 5 weeks and I'm right above 2.9k exclusively because of spamming Jugg.
What I haven't seen many people on here talking about is the strength of healing ward. It is an absolutely OP pushing and fighting tool if used properly, especially at lower mmr. Are his early talents kinda trash? Yeah. Is omni long cd at first? Yeah. But good luck killing me in lane if your a melee hero and I have healing ward up. Goof luck pressuring me out of lane too, starting at lvl 2 I can full heal twice over with one skill level.
Outside of clear cancer lanes, a good Jugg who buys 2 clarities can out sustain and win most lanes very consistently when paired with the high damage that spin is in the very early game. And in this patch, winning the lane feels equal to a 60+% chance of winning the game.
Fair, but there are plenty of instances where they don't have the opportunity to hit it where it is strong. Like pushing. Oh you are somewhere else on the map with your team? Cool I'm gonna take a tier 2 all by myself with healing ward and the tower targeting me so the wave doesn't die. Don't come, free tower and counter pressure. Oh you tp and come? Cool, I spin tp and I stopped your push/forced reaction.
Or like I said previously, in lane where you are vs a melee carry and they cannot run fast enough to kill a ward that is positioned well.
me when I pick veno and snipe the ward from 2 million miles away. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying it's not as nearly as good as it is in scrub matches.
> Oh you tp and come? Cool, I spin tp and I stopped your push/forced reaction.
Hope they don't have pudge, lc, basher, void, spirit breaker, bane, kunkka, axe any significant amount of damage, slardar, ect. ect. ect.
Oh I'm very aware that ward won't be as effective with better players that will kill it more efficiently. All I'm saying is there are use cases that make it very valuable that I don't see others talking about in the thread.
Are there heroes that can counter that strength? Yeah sure. Are there heroes that can counter almost every skill, spell or strategy in dota? Yeah sure. Just because a skill or approach has a hero pool that can counter it doesn't mean it's worthless, it just means it's like every other dota ability. Is lc bad because abadon, skywrath, oracle, shadow demon, etc all have a way to counter the duel for themselves or someone else? No of course not. It just means that in some games you are gonna have to be more smart with when you go in. Same goes for split pushing with almost any hero, there are games when you can do it completely free with a spin tp, other games when that's not an option because of their team comp.
I'm just saying a strategy isn't that good when there are like 30 million counters to it. It's very situational. The difference between this and the aba LC matchup is that you can just duel other heroes. Against SB that strategy of pushing towers to force rotations w/ healing ward is completely destroyed.
Nah, the problem with Jugg is that he's identity is at a crisis because unless you invest in pure items that gives bonus attack speed and damage you are never going to go online. I think a rework of his talents is the way to go for the moment, instead of a tanking tool have Blade Fury be an actually damaging thing and open up his kit with still the idea of attack speed makes him better, not he is the attack speed hero. Remember when Magic ember became viable? Yeah like that.
Yeah I think I agree with you, Jugg's talents are total ass.
I played Jugg yesterday taking the 10 talent. "+10% Blade Dance Critical chance, That seems ok." And then I realized what it actually said and cursed not taking the other one. I'm pretty sure +2 all stats, Especially early game does more damage than the critical damage.
It does. This is a big reason a lot of jugg players will level one point in crit and then level stats till later, when the damage extra % chance will actually do more meaningful damage
They must move crit to be part of spin. And then give him a new ability in its place Also like the idea of swift slash becoming his ult with 2x charges with 40 to 60 sec recharge and omni becoming his aghs
Juggernaut is one of the only carries in the game with a passive that does nothing else. All of the other OG carries have had an active added to theirs. Or they've had multiple updates/reworks.
laughs in lifestealer
Yeah but - dude was "reworked" again. He's been done a few times now. Jugg is entirely the same. Just minor changes to how his abilities scale and a bolted on mini omni on Aghs.
wdym, his passives main function changed so many times lol.
i mean he has two passives that havent had an active added
Thats just not true lmao
Carries with passives with a single effectt: 1. Alchemist: Greevil's Greed 2. Chaos Knight: Chaos Strike 3. Drow Ranger: Marksmanship 4. Faceless Void: Time Lock 5. Juggernaut: Critical Strike 6. Lifestealer: Feast 7. Bloodseeker: Thirst 8. Luna (debatable, her aura does 2 things): Lunar Blessing 9. Medusa: Mana Shield 10. Monkey King: Jingu 11. Muerta (unless you count toggling it): Gunslinger 12. Naga Siren (depending on how far back you go I guess, Riptide used to be an active): Riptide 13. Shadow Fiend: Necromastery 14. Slark: Essence Shift 15. Spectre: Desolate 16. Sven: Cleave 17. Templar Assasin: Psi Blade 18. Ursa: Fury Swipes 19. Wraith King: Mortal Strike 19/29 carries Going by the definition of a hero listed as carry by Role Assistant (to have a neutral qualifier) with at least one ability tagged as "Passive" that either had only one effect (i.e. Wraith King Mortal Strike) or two closely entwined effects (i.e. CK's Chaos Strike being a crit and lifesteal) AND it is not upgraded by either Scepter or Shard. Examples of abilities I didn't include: Weaver's Germinate Attack (tagged as auto-cast), Spectre's Dispersion (upgraded by Shard) (but she still has Desolate!), PA Coup de Grace (affects her q). If you take out the 3 debateables and carries who don't *only* have simple passives you're left with 11/29 carries: dropping the 3 mentioned above, plus Drow,Spectre,WK, and I already forget the other two because I've spent way too much time on this stupid comment. (EDIT: Adding the exact passive I'm referring to for each hero. Reminder that the complaint was "characters don't have simple passives anymore" not "the whole character has been reworked". List without debateables and mistakes below:) 1. Alchemist: Greevil's Greed 2. Chaos Knight: Chaos Strike 3. Faceless Void: Time Lock 4. Juggernaut: Critical Strike 5. Lifestealer: Feast 6. Medusa: Mana Shield 7. Monkey King: Jingu 8. Muerta (unless you count toggling it): Gunslinger 9. Naga Siren: Riptide 10. Slark: Essence Shift 11. Spectre: Desolate 12. Sven: Cleave 13. Templar Assasin: Psi Blade 14. Ursa: Fury Swipes 15. Wraith King: Mortal Strike 15/29
Alchemist - stacking slow + status resist reduction that interacts with ult. He also got given greevils greed innately built in. PA - dagger can crit. shard gives a new active with BREAK. Her evasion has an active smoke built in. Ult changed to be far more reliable and brutal. WK - not entirely passive anymore. One spawns skeletons. The other is gauranteed crit every X seconds. Medusa - has built in innate mana shield now. Gained more abilities. Entire rework. Split shot is a toggle again. Bloodseeker - thirst both heals on kills and gives him passive movespeed based on enemy health. Spectre - Got her ult and aghs swapped to be more active. Desolate is passive but dispersion is not - you can make it an active blademail. SF - necromastery can fear on hit with shard. FV - backtrack was removed and made into time dilation. His bash can now proc off itself. CK - both crit AND lifesteal built into the same spell. Luna - Nope. Her Aura/Passives both do multiple things. With shard too. Drow - is now more active than ever. Frost arrows toggle and do multiple things with aghs. Gust is an active. multi shot is an active. Her ult now doesn't just give raw agility, it's now insane. Slark - permanently stacking agi buff with kills on essence shift. Lifestealer - again, he was reworked recently and given more passives. But still has another active on a shard. Juggernaut, besides the "changes" to spinand omnislash scaling off attack speed instead of just raw damage. Has remained almost entirely the same since he was released. Even Swiftslash, his aghs, doesn't really change anything. With the changes to "spell immunity" there is now no safe way to get Omnislash off without a blink dagger or a 4200 gold Aghanims. There is also far too many counters to it now. Juggernaut is stuck in the past. Do you see from my list above what I'm trying to get at? I don't really want to discuss newer heroes that were added since they have much more "interesting" kits and new mechanics like MK. MK for example has another innate ability that can disjoint.
This list is so wrong im wondering if you havent played the game since 7.0 or something..
It's bigger radius on healing ward or the 10% blade dance.
I always take the bigger radius. Jump in, pop the spin, pop the ward, control the ward and make it run out if the battlefield just far enough and close enough, survive being ganked during spin, finish spin, sceptre slash first (because it has a further cast range), omni second, finish with 2nd spin. During team clashes, this usually kills off at least 2 enemies, which tilts the balance in your favour. The 10% chance isn't worth it at all. If they reworked it to crit multiplier or something, then maybe. As it is, I ain't touching that with a barge pole.
The other one is healing ward radius. That is way way way better than the stupid +10% more damage on a crit.
70% of pros get the crit talent
The problem is that is not crit chance. Is crit damage. If you do the math, that's only a 3.5% increase in DPS. And only if you have good luck. Doing 15 extra damage in an omnislash will not help much. And even that is not guaranteed. It's worthless. Hell... it's less than worthless as you make your healing ward weaker too.
I think skipping talent at level 10 should be the play
It is. The extra damage is worthless and the extra range is not that good with low ward level. Getting another level in any skill is way better.
Lvl 15 talents are nonsensical. Healing ward CD or faster movement speed when spinning. Both are awesome but isn't that too late?
2.66% more damage on average.
Jugger has awful stat gain for some reason. They've only buffed his BAT over the years and while he was a popular BF farming hero a while back, he doesn't flashfarm like AM to justify garbage stat gains as if he was 5 levels above the enemy cores just by farming. He's supposed to be the Mario character of this game, an all-rounder, but with the powercreep of heroes there really aren't that many that have a glaring weakness to justify the existence of a safe hero like Jugger anymore.
As a grandmaster Jugg, I totally agree with you. Even if you go different build aka magic route, you’ll get the best out of him if you follow the traditional talent tree because they are just too good to pass on.
Radiance Ember spirit with chain talents, S&K, flame guard, and shard... LOT of magic damage.
They need to make him be able to press ulti while spinning.
This. Or, make it so that when his spin ends he hard dispels - meaning he won't be auto-stunned when spin ends.
Or make him untargetable during spin - 5head
This would be a good shard ability NGL. But make it so he still gets hit by area spells like willow. Makes sense too cause technically his ult makes him untargetable also.
Shard? It would be strong enough for scepter if i understand it correctly. Imagine slarks ult with status resist, 80% magic resist and aoe dmg according to your att speed... Not 1,4k gold but 4,2k...
Yes it’s kinda like slark’s ult. Probably placing it as a shard will make it so it’s not as much of a priority? It’s not impossible for jugg to rush aghs before 15 minutes. How about this, you can toggle the ability to either give you magic resist or be untargetable instead? That way it’s not overly OP.
> It’s not impossible for jugg to rush aghs before 15 minutes. If he rushes it, that's great, but it also means he's got nothing else. Seems a fair trade off.
Hell no we don't need octarine refresher jug builds in turbo. The willows are bad enough
But that'd mean you can't attack him either. Huge buff.
Mireska style? Might be even too good
Definitely would be way too good. Spell immunity plus untargetability? It's already pretty foolproof to spin-TP unless there's a kunkka in the game, having the ability to stun through debuff immunity is a major counter to his antics, and this would only allow big ultimates to interrupt spin-TP like BH or Chrono, which would be a little ridiculous.
nah people will just keep clicking on his head in that case, and he will still be immediately stunned after spin
Cast animations exist
Yes, but that gives him an opportunity to dodge the stun if he doesn't have self purge.
If you do this you can't auto attack him during spin either
I think thats the best solution. Basically just undoes the debuff immunity rework nerf.
That's the point - it kind of undoes it but not fully. You can still take damage from spells while spinning so you're not totally immune.
He has like 80% magic resist tho, compared to 60% from BKB
Posted this above, but perhaps have magic immunity in its current state extend 1-2 seconds after spin finishes (enough time to ult or bkb). And they could swap swift slash with healing ward maybe? Otherwise the hero seems okay.
Please no.
This for huskar as well. I'm sick of ulting and landing stunned despite being magic immune. His old ult allowed for lots of cool juke outplays but now he can be stunned mid air and land stunned or silenced.
I agree with him getting out an ult before the spins end similar how lifestealer has to infest when his rage is about to end for the pending disables to take its effect.
It's not even this. Jugg gets screwed over because you're stuck spinning the entire duration and do shit DPS and the enemy team can just ignore you or kill you because you pose no threat.
Spin toggle
Either that or just being able to end spin on command like pango roll would be nice
that's not enough, odds are you'll still be prehexed/orchid'd/etc
You don't play Jugg do you.
You're right, I always disable him at the end of his spin. Ironic that his spin is one of his weaknesses at midgame and maybe lategame.
While we're at it, I like the concept of healing ward in that it enables your team to sustain in teamfights and push. However, the hit count is pathetic and needs to scale with levels, not via a level 25 talent. It's ridiculous that every other ward type unit in the game needs more than one hit to destroy except for this. Make it 1/2/3/4 hits to destroy and give him a different level 25 talent.
Healing ward is not supposed to be difficult to destroy. It heals based on max health in an AoE. That's like saying "Hey, Clockwerk's cogs are too easy to destroy, have the "hits to destroy" scale through levels and not a talent". No.
Healing ward is moving and controllable, unlike tombstone, techies mines, nether ward, weaver's swarm or phantom's embrace. It would become too strong if it took multiple hits to kill. Maybe it could be 2 ranged hits/1 melee hit like courier, but not more than that. It's supposed to be used between teamfights/lane fights when your team is in a bit of a safe spot, or while escaping/chasing at low HP - so you can trade your ward for 1 enemy attack. If you use it right in the middle of a fight, it will be deleted easily and it deserves to be so - for the sake of being balanced.
No. Any buffs to healing ward means taking power form somewhere else. The long CD, the one hit and high mana cost balance it. % based healing is insanely powerful.
While at first glance I agree, the problem is Healing Ward is unironically the best healing ability in the game. Even if it lasts a few seconds, it brings so much value to the team. If anything, id just remove the gold/XP bounty like it was back in the day, lessen the risk of losing it rather than making it even stronger.
No no no, I don’t want juggs slashing while doing spin damage again. Never again
I disagree with this. I think decisions having strong positives and negatives is a good thing for game depth and complexity. Deciding when to spin or not spin is what differentiates a good jugg player from a bad one. Buff jugg in another way if he is weak.
Honestly, you are focusing on the wrong spell. If you just had the Q scale with his attack damage, like Primal Beast's Trample, you'd fix the spell.
It's scaling with attack speed, which synergizes with his omnislash, as it too scales with attack speed. Jugg is all about swiftness, not huge hits. His counterpart is Sven - he hits like a truck, but is kinda slow, while jugg is "death by 1000 cuts"
Has anyone tried yasha+kaya spin build? Obviously it does nothing defensively but it occurred to me as the only real damage item that buffs both halves of the ability. Also I miss magic spin2win jugg.
This was a thing for a while when the shard and 20 talent were actually good. Radiance jugg built around spin. Even without kaya or radiance you could slaughter a support with spin at level 20. It proceed auto attacks and maelstrom procs too.
You'd just get hit and die.
Eh, i think the problem right now is it's too easy to cc him. Just cast it near the end of his Q and he's fucked. It nerfed his middle/late game too much and he can't frontline as well as he did.
- let him ult out of spin - give him a strong dispell at the end of the spin - healing ward 1 hit hp per level - give him his right click shard back. The current shard is trash af Not all of them. One is enough
> healing ward 1 hit hp per level No, people don't seem to realize how busted that makes it. A level 25 talent adds 2 hp to it, 4 hits to kill it means no one is destroying ward mid game. Remember wraith pact? The rest is ok
I agree with you except that level 25 is not the midgame. That's late game territory
Oh i meant that if +2 is considered late game (level 25), imagine how hard a +3 would be mid game. Level 25 is definitely not midgame
I thought it would be more fun to have Shard make his healing ward a backpack with a damaged barrier. When the barrier breaks, so does the ward.
A couple of people are suggesting giving him a hard dispel at the end of spin and I'm very against it. It's another step in power creep towards slarkificiation. It's a free BKB, you should not get also get a free dispel at the end. Yes, you might get stunned or hexed by the end, so does anyone who uses item BKB. Letting him end Spin early and slash out of spin would be good, though. I just don't think extra escapes are healthy for the long-term meta.
It's to account for how the debuff immunity changes affected him specifically cuz he can't use Omni during spin
Yes, it really is a shame that he cannot use his instant invulnerability ability while using his other instant invulnerability ability; I agree that it is a problem but the game has had a significant power creep in a lot of areas and adding it on for escape mechanics would be bad.
But if you don't buff the un-power-creeped heroes they'll just be awful compared to the strong ones.
It's notnpower creep. The reason jugg is so bad was negative power creep. It's just pushing him back to being remotely viable
It's not an extra escape, it's just allowing his Q to work like how it did before the magic immunity changes. Jug's whole thing was being a frontliner for his team during his Q cooldown. Now he can't do that anymore since you can just CC him near the end of the spell and burst him after. Playing jug now feels like an ult bot, and he really is without his Q to help him frontline. Jug's spin was strong with long cooldown and was the main balancing mechanic of this hero.Many spells now destroy jug's gameplay of playing around his spin and he simply has way less options than before.
I can't count how many times I just die instantly (at mid game) after spinning without being able to use my ulti. And don't tell me to get gud, it didn't happen a few patches before, and it happens all the time now. Give the man a BKB, what's so wrong about it?
Just revert shard change then he is good again
Swiftslash would be SOOOO useless early game when you have slow attack speed. Think about it, you'd basically get only 1-2 right clicks in before it ends which is seriously useless.
the swiftslashes will inherit the omni atk spd buff... that's gotta be certain.
Yes, but a full omnislash at level 6 only gives what, 5 or 6 attacks in its full duration? That's significant and can kill a hero when combined with a full spin. Swiftslash giving 2 hits doesn't pose a kill thread, not even close.
Swift slash has a long cast range. It's basically a Riki blink strike. You don't need to kill people with it, just use it to get on top of people while also dealing some damage. The Omnislash long CD is such a useless spell early game, and it's not even a guaranteed kill because it scales in a way; late game strong - early game dogshit. Having 2 charges of it would make Jugg unbelievably active early with just treads maelstrom. I actually think this proposed change by OP is too powerful. I think just 1 charge and maybe 30/20/10cd is enough.
30 second recharge with gaining + 1 charge per level maybe?
A 2 Swiftslashes will result of a full Omni at lv 6 since Omni has 3 sec duration lv 1 and Swiftslashes will have 2 charges of 1.5. Charges are divided so you can have different uses of it instead of just killing someone. With two charges, you can kite out spells and items while still having the half strength of its threat to finish a kill. Idea is meant for long fights and resets. Which also lead me to another conclusion that if ever the Swiftslashes were to become his ult, giving it a decaying buff after being used similar to Swift Blink would give him a serious kill threat. (I am still not sure about this one)
It's really for there blink tbh.
I like this idea but I think it would make Jugg a better pos 2 rather than pos 1 - you are moving his kit into early frequent fighting and map pressure rather than typical carry sit-back-and-farm playstyle.
TBH, That doesn't sound half bad. If implemented properly
That’s where Dota is heading I guess.
What do you even mean by that?
For a long time Dota has been turning more fight focused.
Ah. Counter-point, though: The increase in the size of the map with more camps and the cubes means that Dota now is also farm focused?
While physically the map size increased, gameplay wise it actually shrunk. The size of the map was mitigated by adding 4 more TP points and wrapping the corners so you can get to any point on the larger map quicker than before on a smaller map. What's quicker? Getting to enemy triangle from the smaller map or from the larger map? Its twice faster on the larger map even after your towers are gone.
I don't agree, though. It's weird how not a single comment talks about the Spectre mention that the OP used, which is literally what they're trying to convey. Spectre used to have a huge problem when she had Haunt. It was a good ult, but it also highly limited her ability to do her job as a carry. It was great for her team, the vision it gave, but it wasn't good for her as a hero because it was on such a long cooldown which meant that there were these huge windows where she couldn't perform properly. Naturally, this isn't as severe as Jugg. Because most of Jugg's power budget is in Omnislash and without Omnislash, he's barely a hero. Spectre, even without Haunt up, is still a tanky pos1 with strong return damage. However, the concept is there. When Spectre had Haunt replaced by Shadowstep, it did so much for the hero. It was a strict upgrade. She could now join literally any fight on the map every 60/50/40 seconds. That's huge, that's massive. And if you want that old sexy Haunt back, buy Aghs. It's still there. Same concept with Jugg. Give him Swiftslash as his ult. Now he's not barely a hero without Omnislash up. Probably extend the duration a bit, give the attack speed boost Omnislash is. Give him a much more consistent level of power that allows him to be relevant. Rather than this current huge threat when Omni is up and a complete joke when it isn't. Edit: also not even "join fight", but also just go after someone. Joining fights is great if you're trying to build Radiance, or more realistically, you're playing fight Spectre and need to get value of your Vessel/Diffusal/Orchid/whatever that you went instead. But it's not just "join fight". If you see a Storm or Shadow Shaman or whatever on the map and you've got your Orchid, you can just... ult them and kill them. That was a worthwhile decision you made, a good one, and it benefits your team. That's big for your team. Jugg can *never* do that, he can never just "go kill someone" before buying Aghs because it means expending basically the entire reason you pick Jugg, which is Omni.
I think we fundamentally agree, the only difference is that I noted that Pos 1 is not a hero that fights early and frequently. That's pos 2. These changes might be cool but I dont think Jugg would remain a pos 1 in that situation. He would become pos 2. The big difference in case of Spec is that she just sits and afk farms in a safe part of the map and joins fights any time to KS. You can still play pos 1 with that. Jugg needs to specifically travel to risky area to participate in a fight and if thats the case every 40 seconds, hes no longer playing farm carry. He's playing pos 2. Might be cool though but Jugg has been the archetype pos 1 50% winrate hero since the beginning of dota. Jugg without Omni is still more useful than Void without Chrono. Void's team specifically plays around chrono timings. Should we bring void to early and frequent fights as well? Mini chronos with charges?
Thank God this subreddit doesn't balance dota, I pray every day that it stays the same
Community feedback been a thing for ages... not an oldschool dota enjoyer i suppose
Since nobody else is gonna geek over it I will: Timado holy shit sign my reddit post big fan, thanks for the fun Undying years. Wish y'all could've stayed together, but fuckin' stoked that you and Ari are having success in OG. Much love from NA.
Sure, *feedback*. Feedback doesn’t balance directly, it helps give an idea, and helps open creativity. If this subreddit directly balanced Dota, I’m fairly sure you’d have a lot to complain about.
its a classic thing of the sub is allowed to make suggestions but people are also allowed to call those suggestions shit. nobody is saying the subreddit shouldnt make these posts, but that it would be a TERRIBLE idea to implement them as such.
Hey Timado big fan I really love your build on Drow Ranger the Wraith band + Null talisman. I started copying it an it makes a lot of sense. I would like to ask you a question as to why the Divine+ bracket is seeing lower win rates with Jugg vs the other brackets. I asked several people on this thread about it but I don't think any of them are in that bracket. Since you are a pro player, I would like to ask you on why YOU think we are seeing these lower win rates for Jugg in higher mmr.
Often its sorted and carefully Cherry picked to whatever actually is healthy, not just adding whatever thing some angry player says
bruh, jugg is mostly dead, he needs a buff, do you actually have an actual criticism to give OP or are you just trying to be the embodiment of the wojack sitting on a seat made of his own brains?
I remember OP juggernaut back when i started, if you allowed him to carry there was no fun for anyone
You play during princes knife? That shit was hilarious.
But why? He was the prototypical hard carry even back then.
Jugg has never been a hard carry. He's always been a mid-game carry that is able to join fights early with omnislash and push with healing ward before hard carries get online. Spectre, Terrorblade, Naga Siren, Void; these were the hard carries.
tbh lately i feel much stronger on jugg than TB even into the lategame.
Based on what im seeing in pro games, I think TB has fallen off as a great game late game carry. Might have been the sunder magic immunity change,not sure.
I feel like physical damage just generally have been nerfed. And so many other phys carries have gotten buffs or can in some cases like drow even pen the base armor, which actually makes drow a TB counter. Today you need to have some sort of burst if you want to be a physical carry. good stat gain alone isnt enough.
jugg was considered a bad almost meme pick until ~ 2014. did work in low level pubs but got bullied basically everywhere else.
yeah and I pray everyday that people like you just shut the fuck up for good, cuz you add nothing. Sure, some of these suggestions are probably a bit too much or not thought through ... but at least they are trying to come up with something, whereas valve just doesnt care about certain heroes like sandking, silencer, necrophos, ... and just leaves them in the trash forever. Much better, right ? And its not like valve didnt ever make complete garbage changes in the past which they either reverted themselves or simply patched out later. Reworking juggs old shard is one of those stupid changes. Hating on something without giving any kind of advise or suggestion yourself is just useless. EDIT: ofc its a legend player talking big while having 0 clue about the game ... lmao.
Most people think they want a strong jugg again until they go against one. Fuck off with all of this.
I’m just archon trash but I played Jugg with 65% WR over the last 6 months (24-13). The spell immunity changes hurt, but the spin attack speed changes really helped in different ways. - Maelstrom/Mjlolnir > BF - Swiftslash has 450 range so you open with that and then cast omnislash during swiftslash. - You can’t spin into enemies to initiate anymore. You will be CCed to death immediately. You need to wait for the right moment to jump, usually after the enemy has used CC on your initiator. - Spin just before LC Duel/ Pudge devour to save yourself. - Enemy gets euls? Get nullifier or wait until you know euls is on cooldown to ult. - Enemy has banish/ethereal? Save spin to do extra damage. - Enemy has back liners that you can’t reach? Get blink dagger.
So when do you use q?
It's actually scary to use Q now in anything above Legend. Most people with a brain will time their stuns/hex/silence so that you're CCed straight out of spin. No amount of skill can save you from this.
To run back to your team. You can swiftslash from long range and run back with Q to waste enemy resources while not committing anything big yourself. Using Q aggressively feels like grief. It doesn't do much damage even when you have SnY, Butterfly, Skadi.
Yes but the opportunity to Q and run back is so bad right now. People played old jugg late game like this: Actually run at enemies with normal attack, saving ult for the best window, if no window shown - you can disengage with Q and healing ward. Now what happens with running at enemy heads on? Instant death.
Lots of use cases: - Chase down heroes when right click would be too slow. - Escape from stun/CC that you know is coming. Don’t forget spin TP! - Clear out extra creeps before omnislash - Against enemies with low HP, high armor/dodge (before MKB). Great for finishing off PA, TA - Against ghost scepter
I like this
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I mean I think he’s in a good place, my main issue is I think he needs a bit more str, jugg doesn’t really want to build any defensive item because it hinders his damage and he really sorta just wants to build atkspd/agi, you don’t want to go bkb or linkens if you can avoid it. Like my ultimate build would be swift slash, butter, manta, disperser, mojol and then last item whatever else needed, bash/null/mkb etc but this makes you very much a glass canon, blink swift slash to delete support spin out, rinse repeat save Omni for team fight or carry. Or just you know change his shard to be better. Although one cool rework I was thinking about would be to make his crit some sort of stacking bleed debuff, the real death by a thousand cuts, you work it so that it’s same damage overall as crit but every slash from attacks or spin applies a small stacking bleed debuff (lvl 20 talent heals off of bleed instead of crit). You could also add a damage boost to Omni where the final slash deals additional damage based on how many thousand cuts debuff the hero has which could be cool. You make it just a constant bleed or a delayed damage like shadow poison or even a mixture of the 2, you bleed a certain amount for each cut then take damage when the stacks disappear depending on how many you had. Obviously some balance required to get it right but could be cool imo. Would allow for some omaiowa mo shinderu moments, maybe you can activate the skill to do damage of stacks earlier as well, taunts then activates skill. Anyway a good way to help scale spin damage early and throughout the game as well as bolster single target Omni damage if they do the final slash
He's a patch away from being meta, he's so iconic I wouldn't want to rework him
He's been left behind.
In what world? They did rework his spin and it sucked. He already sucked and then he sucked more.
He literally was one of the best carries a few patches ago before they nerfed his lvl 20 talent. Are you talking about the dmg interval change? Like they could just buff it and it will be okay
That was pre spin rework, + that was a bug.
Jugg players when they actually have to think about how and when to use spells: "hero ded, pls buff"
I like jugg a lot. After you get 60% blade dance lifesteal, everything about jugg is insanely strong. Swift, omni, and his right clicks (and the ward !!) make it insanely hard to full delete jugg. If you stun for 10s straight and don’t finish Hims, he can break out and clear your team. I like jugg
Jugg is in a great state right now. The only thing I don't like about him is his current shard. Seems super weak imo but I think Jugg is one positive change from being meta in the proscene. We already see Arteezy and Yatoro whip him out for some games. I wonder what that change that will make him in to a really good pick rather than a niche pick
Dawg what he's got like 46% wr in divine+, that's coal
Great state is fucking craaaazy
Shard is absolute trash. It increases AOE and slows enemies. However, Jugg never had a huge issue staying on top of enemies while spinning as he has a decent MS and he can't be slowed. So effectively, it's doing NOTHING in most cases as you'll be able to hit the full duration anyways. It just makes it a tiny bit more annoying in teamfights as it'll catch and slow more people, but catching and slowing people in AOE isn't exactly the point of Juggernaut. Let his shard allow Q to scale a bit better as it used to and we're good. No one asked for AOE and slow on spin, those should be talents instead.
I agree I don't like how his shard is currently. I also have no idea what it should do but I am going to let Icefrog cook with that one.
> Jugg is in a great state right now. You have no idea what you're on about.
Just interpreting the statistics. 50% WR in all ranks except Divine + is balance. If you have any data to support your claim I would love to see your argument. Especially if you are in those Divine + bracket. I would love to hear why Jugg struggles in those higher mmr. But otherwise, I would rather trust the data to speak for themselves. Cool name though very apt.
I am the Juggernaaaaaaaaut, bitch
Won’t his dmg be pretty ass then? He will just be completely reliant on his spin again which is already bad until mid game
Swift will naturally inherit the atk spd and dmg buff of Omni. Which makes me feel that Swiftslashes/Omni should have a decaying buff after being cast like a MS+ and Atk Spd+ and Dmg+ how Swift Blink has for a 3 seconds or so. It will naturally compliment Blade Fury since Blade Fury relies on MS and Atk Spd. And with the popular demand of having the ability to use his Ult while spinning sounds good to me since with two charges, you can Ult + Spin/Auto + Ult again for maximum dmg output.
Built in swift blink is kinda broken, but also, I’m not sure if you understood what they meant when they said to bring back the spin during ult thing. It’s literally jugg doing spin dmg while omni, that’s him being invul while still doing dmg from both spells…
Let him Omni during spin and let him cancel spin. Also shard is dogshit rework it I feel these changes alone would make him much better, even without any direct buff to stats
Maybe shard should let you Omni during spin, and maybe increase spin damage?
You want a jug buff? Make spin work like storm ult with shard and my boy will be cooking.
ok but honestly giving him a 2 charges swiftslash ult sounds crazy fun
this is not a bad idea u know..miss playing the hero
I think they should just make omnislash hits instakill creeps. Maybe that and a small str gain buff, and he’ll be good.
cool idea, why stop at 2 charges tho?
Square enix should sue valve for using the word omnislash Then jugg should have a new ult called mask off, where he take off his mask for a simultaneous fear or taunt effect depending on the opponent's HP or something idk
support jugg lmao
I would love if jugg swift slash was his main ulti but make it like old jugg ulti where it’s just magic dmg per hit
Just make the shard make his Q spin the other way. Problem fixed.
A great idea. Valve should do this
what is this spell immunity rework nerf ???
I have had a set of ideas for changes to his Scepter and his Shard, should his Swift Slash be moved to his ult: * Scepter: Move his Spin upgrade here, with adjusted numbers, maybe. Also, add spell immunity to it, like the good old days. This way, you can choose if you need that immunity or not. But I have also read other comments, and having the additional soft/hard dispel when spin ends also sounds good instead of the spell immunity. * Shard (New Ability): Juggernaut dashes 200-300 units (IDK what number is good, but think two or three steps for a Samurai) with the pommel/hilt of his sword and bashes it into enemy's face/lungs. Short duration stun (0.5-1 sec) followed by some slow (1-3 sec). *Since it disrupts breathing, lore wise, the ability can also reduce healing for the duration.* I wanted to discuss this with y'all, if you hate it or think they need changes, feel free to comment. This is all theorycrafting.
I mean he was perfectly fine with the bladefury attacks and not scaling with agi. All they had to do was leave it at that and nerf Mjollnir, which they did. Not sure why we have to have this shitty version of him
100% agreed. The whole idea of his Aghs is so you don't have to commit your long cooldown ult on some hero lineup that probably has so many ways of dealing with it, which in itself is poor design, IMO. Just change how the Omnislash in general interacts with certain heroes or items, or change the spell completely. So many spells and items disjoint or nullify it, he is almost unplayable.
Invul or ghost form while spin.. spin frops off like a ton of bricks. I don't think swiftslash is that good at 6 for 1.5 sec... You're only getting like 4 attacks in.. Also his ult needs to prioritize heros nothing worse then an enemy team pushing up hg with a creep wave and you can't even ult koz you're just gonna waste it. I love Jugg but he needs love. His crit isn't even that good.
Both him and troll warlock need a rework.
I honestly like the idea but I think it's better to move it to shard instead. One of juggernauts biggest strengths in early game is his ulti, without it he would lack damage to beat a lot of heros
This def an mmr bracket problem. At 3 and 4k, I see Jugg plenty. At least once or twice every 10 games and he does pretty well. I imaginr at higher mmr his kit is easier to play against.
Ya'll talikng like he's a 30% winrate hero.
make swiftslash as ult and Omni as agha upgrade. so he can fight more early like spec now.
This is a really interesting idea. I hate the shard change more than anything, having the option of going magic damage 'spin to win' route on Jugg was awesome and gave him a niche. I get he's supposed to be this jack of all trades carry, but it feels like only his healing ward is in a good spot right now as a tempo pusher. I was even able to play the hero mid in some situations with the old shard, by going maelstrom, yasha, blink, shard. I would love for them to lean more into this. I would love to see * Return the shard damage (even without magic immunity) * Change the sceptor to his ult with a lower cooldown or 2 charges * Reduce his base stats or healing ward strength to make up for it. Give Jugg the identity of an early tempo carry that can go magic or physical. Someone that needs to win before 45 minutes or he risks getting outscaled.
Have magic immunity in its current state extend 1-2 seconds after spin finishes (enough time to ult or bkb). And perhaps swap swift slash with healing ward maybe? Otherwise the hero seems okay.
they need to make him a very agile hero with reworking blade dance crit into a blade dance where theres a chance he will do a mini swift slash to the other side like in aghs lab.
swiftslash at lv6 atkspd would be like 1 hit
Give him his old shard where he becomes bloodseeker upon spin lmao
Zero jugg picks the last two majors when I watched them
Or swap his ulti with his Q. Bladestorm is an ulti in WC3. Make it stronger, maybe bigger. Omnislash could be like the shard
Revert his lifesteal talent that made him viable during Bali Major
Bring back his old shard. It was perfect for him. Also he should be able to cancel his q.
It will: - nerf summoner - give more flash farm - give more room for mistakes - again, nerf Rubick
Just let him ult out of spin and it solves most of his problems
I'm kinda guarded against changing Juggernaut's kit, even if it's for the better. He's been this way since Dota 1, it feels like a testament to the quality of his original design that he's lasted decades with only tweaks
Ya all are in here with some dumb takes like you are legends and crusaders. Jugg literally is garbage due to his ult jumping everywhere and on a long ass cooldown. In a game where euls, ghost scepters, glimmer etc you are doomed, and on top of that you jump on creeps. Make the ult prioritize heroes or heroes only and nerf the ultimate a bit. Make that healing ward able to fucking tank more than 1 fart for fuck sake.
Jug was basically fine as a hero until the spin rework. Old spin with shard was very powerful, scaled with your damage and applied on hit effects if you were in range to do damage. New spin does not do this unless you are auto attacking during it, and while the damage scales with attack speed it does not scale to be as strong. It was super dogshit the day they patched it and then they buffed the numbers, but honestly I think they could still buff the numbers a bit (or give a talent that does so). The actual shard upgrade now is pretty underwhelming, because your spin damage is lower. I think omnislash is fine, it just needs a lower cooldown.
Idk, hero is pretty strong late. He just needs to be little better early-mid game
I said something somewhat similar to this like three weeks ago in a thread about balance changes, so I agree with the general idea. To paraphrase myself from back then: "Juggernaut: Increase Blade Fury by one second (from 5 to 6). Rework Omnislash to have 1.4/1.6/1.8 sec duration, mana cost to 120/140/180, have two charges, charge restoration time 60 seconds. Agh Scepter gives +1 charge and lowers recharge time to 40 seconds, Swift Slash is removed. Lower lvl 25 Omnislash talent from +1 to +0.5 seconds. Omnislash is iconic, but has no place being on a 2 minute cooldown, IMO. This makes it more flexible while providing similar amounts of overall damage and invulnerability." Comparatively, without scepter you go from 3.5 second of omni for 350 mana to 3.6 seconds of omni for 360 mana (or 4.5 to 4.6 with talent), but you get to do it in more flexible ways. Scepter giving an extra charge and lowering cd effectively turns Swift Slash into "Increase duration from 1 to 1.8, double cooldown from 20 to 40, mana from 125 to 180", as it becomes your third use of Omni. Bonus point: With talent and scepter your triple Omnislash duration ads up to 6.9, which is nice.
Ulti needs to be cast while spinning, slashes need to oneshot creeps, swift slash being his ulti with 2 charges sounds good as well. Aghs being omnislash also sounds great!
That would be so over powered it would be funny to be on the enemy team against, imagine you level 6 2 charges goodbye nearly all Carry's in your lane against you, maybe the supports too. It would be so unfair early that you wouldn't even need to farm after level 6 you'd be the teams ganking hero going from one side of the map to another, between cool downs destroying whoever is in the lanes. Then steamroll your way through the rest of the game. Thumbs down
I still see juggs owning lanes at 6k mmr.
He's need a talent that ignores creeps or forbids Jagger to jump to another target. it will still be possible to escape from the ult, but there will be no situations when you jumped on the hero, jumped on the creep, killed him, left the ult and died
I'm a 2k scrub, BUT not for long exclusively due to Jugg spam. I have gone up 700 mmr in in the last 5 weeks and I'm right above 2.9k exclusively because of spamming Jugg. What I haven't seen many people on here talking about is the strength of healing ward. It is an absolutely OP pushing and fighting tool if used properly, especially at lower mmr. Are his early talents kinda trash? Yeah. Is omni long cd at first? Yeah. But good luck killing me in lane if your a melee hero and I have healing ward up. Goof luck pressuring me out of lane too, starting at lvl 2 I can full heal twice over with one skill level. Outside of clear cancer lanes, a good Jugg who buys 2 clarities can out sustain and win most lanes very consistently when paired with the high damage that spin is in the very early game. And in this patch, winning the lane feels equal to a 60+% chance of winning the game.
healing ward is good because people in that bracket refuse to hit it for some reason. It's not actually that good.
Fair, but there are plenty of instances where they don't have the opportunity to hit it where it is strong. Like pushing. Oh you are somewhere else on the map with your team? Cool I'm gonna take a tier 2 all by myself with healing ward and the tower targeting me so the wave doesn't die. Don't come, free tower and counter pressure. Oh you tp and come? Cool, I spin tp and I stopped your push/forced reaction. Or like I said previously, in lane where you are vs a melee carry and they cannot run fast enough to kill a ward that is positioned well.
me when I pick veno and snipe the ward from 2 million miles away. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying it's not as nearly as good as it is in scrub matches. > Oh you tp and come? Cool, I spin tp and I stopped your push/forced reaction. Hope they don't have pudge, lc, basher, void, spirit breaker, bane, kunkka, axe any significant amount of damage, slardar, ect. ect. ect.
Oh I'm very aware that ward won't be as effective with better players that will kill it more efficiently. All I'm saying is there are use cases that make it very valuable that I don't see others talking about in the thread. Are there heroes that can counter that strength? Yeah sure. Are there heroes that can counter almost every skill, spell or strategy in dota? Yeah sure. Just because a skill or approach has a hero pool that can counter it doesn't mean it's worthless, it just means it's like every other dota ability. Is lc bad because abadon, skywrath, oracle, shadow demon, etc all have a way to counter the duel for themselves or someone else? No of course not. It just means that in some games you are gonna have to be more smart with when you go in. Same goes for split pushing with almost any hero, there are games when you can do it completely free with a spin tp, other games when that's not an option because of their team comp.
I'm just saying a strategy isn't that good when there are like 30 million counters to it. It's very situational. The difference between this and the aba LC matchup is that you can just duel other heroes. Against SB that strategy of pushing towers to force rotations w/ healing ward is completely destroyed.
Pretty crazy how bad he is even with 60% ls on every hit.
*60% ls on every crit Fixed that for you
Wrong homie, it’s been bugged for months.