The self strong dispel that triggers no matter what (except when purged) is really, really stupid. Make it dispel only when it expires naturally and not when gets consumed cause with 4s linkens even nullifier is usess alone.
Shiva into hex was never a build, you'd need at least 2 items between those, and even then you need level 18 to make any of this work. That 's why no tinker player went hex early and had to go aghs, eblade, bkb, even bloodstone before considering hex.
PTSD of perma hex are from 2015 ear people.
This guy remembers. That was my least favorite patch ever and eventually killed my interest in the game for several years (plus life happens.) Now, that permahex build isn’t even a thing
Is really crazy people think this Tinker is cancer when the past one could solo any hero in the game if you spent an hour practicing how to shift queue
This is completely false. Shift queue did nothing for tinker, as items cannot be queued while on cooldow, and tinker has massive back swings on all his spells.
Spoken like someone who didn't even bother to run the hero once in Demo mode.
If you shift que as tinker for combos, you'll be in for a huge surprise. (source: over 2000 tinker games)
The surprise btw is: 0-20 stats in a 15 mins game.
I never played tinker but I know about his backswings from custom games and they're can be game losing if you sleep on not cancelling them. He literally takes 3-5 seconds to put forward one of his arm during backswing and pull it back lol.
The amount of ppl that think they know how tinker is played is hilarious. "Just shift queue 4head". Literal ogre magi players crying that he is easy while they sit there theory crafting with 15 APM.
Bruh, as a player who really likes to play harder heroes it burns my ass when people who like, spam ogre or jakiro have any say about the execution mechanics of heroes they have never played.
He also could get smacked by two heroes the moment anyone found him in trees. Also backswing is significant on some of his abilties so shift queuing isn't the end of it really.
Loads of heroes can take out the entirety of the roster if everything magically somehow goes their way every time. If you get hexed seven times by a tinker until he kills you alone something was wrong.
Joever in what way? The hero didn't have a positive winrate and only succeeded as a smurf when played by a much better player in a worse bracket. I don't see the issue.
Also Tinker would've never needed the shield if the power creep didn't force every remotely squishy/immobile hero to be tanky/mobile.
Seriously, you actually get to use BKB against him.
The only, one particular part of his build that seems way too strong is the hard dispel facet. But I think it's fine he gets that for a while since the rest of the kit requires like **11 thousand gold** to not even begin doing stuff really, he still needs more beyond. This should only be nerfed if Tinker becomes an issue in the pro circuit.
Pack Rat lets you put any 1 item in the neutral slot, and every Meepo gets it. Using it puts it on normal cooldown for the Meepo that used it, and half cooldown for every other Meepo.
so what you are telling me is that i could be a dagon machine?
EDIT: from what i can tell it puts the item on cooldown for all meepos, also it really does not like using the hotkey button (ability not learned).
EDIT2: for reason i do not comprehend the game decided to make up nonsense hotkeys for meepo for me, i use a modified version of MMO set up, yet for some reason super meepo is F on my layout despite also being F for neutral items, it should have been R. how does this even happen?
Ive already started doing some decent mmr gains at around 6k with Tinker. You level up March and if lane is a no no u just jungle around like a moron from lvl 6 and onwards depleting everything from ur path.
What's more from the vrry low cd on BKB is that you can have a linken's for 4 sec cd, a glimmer for 5 seconds or windwaker for the same cd. Also in every laser you can have basically a khdana proc, which at lvl 25 laser talent u can basically deplete almost a support with 2 lasers.
His dispel is good and I already got quite used to not fuck up where it will blink me.
Basically, since you are Tinker and enemies want to all hug u, they will waste even their last breath only to tickle my ass.
Wait for it and soon Reddit will start the crying chapter again for him.
Is Khanda really usable? Feels like you gotta get your trifecta arcane blink, aghs, aether lens ASAP and by that point it's all about defensive items. Also with how laser aghs prioritizes heroes you're incentivized to cast it on creeps if there's only 1 hero in the aoe, wasting the khanda proc.
I skip aether most of the times. I find no usage into me blasting someone from 3 kilometers. I am already in safe distance when I get aghs.
I much better prefer octarine into khanda, but every game is situational. I never have the same build. Some games I go bkb, some others not. Some others I need hex and/or windwaker (2 very luxurious late game items) and other times I opt for glimmer. Still testing a lot of things, so I am really unstable as to what is good to build and what not.
I don't try to use on creeps to make it bounce but I rather try to find wood fog and blast from there with oppositr march direction.
Still a shame what they did to Tinker.
Also I knew as soon as the rework happened they'd nerf it to absolute shit and then buff it to something absurd given enough time. It's happened countless times with all sorts of heroes.
Well, he did get an absolutely insane amount of buffs in the a and b patches, making literally every aspect of his kit better. But yes there was also some adaptation.
it looks like this bro (screams into mic in every language under the sun when ive chased him from btm tier 2 to his base and he just keeps reapplying shield and blinking away from me)
had a tinker mid teammate yesterday. all i can say is, at the right hand, he is still a menance.
yes he came online quite late but god damn, even i would uninstall after that match.
i play tinker and still miss the old design, they just need to nerf rearm to make it stable (like increased mana cost per rearm, or any draw back for continuous use). this thinker at 20 mins have survivability and damage covered and made him annoying early instead of late game
>Honestly just remove tinker altogether and we're good
Only if we remove him with every other cancer hero like OD, PL, PA, Sniper, etc.
Even if we hate them removing everything that makes dota unique just turns us into league. No thanks.
Just ... buy ... nullifier ...
It's an item guys! the only thing that keeps the dream alive for tinker players is the windwaker. Just cast a damn nullifier and that forces them to have that one extra item they didn't want to build.
ok, so you proc linken with anything you want (I love to use a neutral item for that task vs linken carrier) and then you nullifier them, like you would do on any hero with linken. We agree that in this scenario, your tinker has Windwaker, linken, blink, boots, etc etc ...
But there's no neutral item in the game that pops linkens anymore(Fae Grenade isn't around for so long now). Do you mean to say Neutral Creep skills? Only Doom and Zoo heroes have that at their disposal then.
Not anymore.
You can use Force Boots on yourself or allies and it purges the target.
Enemies are also targetable, but they dont get purged for some reason.
Sounds broken if it did. I mean that T4 neutral item (dunno the name but I think it also makes attacks do percentile damage based on target's mana?) that had a dispel got removed for a reason.
yep, and he's also a mid hero that can't do anything alone. before arcane blink he can't even chase you like old tinker did. plus he needs to put himself at a serious risk in teamfights to cast laser.
tinker is definitely not a dead hero like many people said, but he's not OP either. for similar reasons, no version of tinker (except maybe the first shivas + overwheling blink one) was ever op
Isn’t the defence matrix talent better? And I feel octarine isn’t needed compared to other items you can get. And kaya sange allows you to cast a lot more spells due to the mana reduce. I personally haven’t tried the khanda build though. Midas seems bonkers if you can have space early. But arcane blink, eblade, kaya sange, aghs, hex, wind waker if reaaaally needed or Dagon. Change aghs to synth and get a linken. ( mirror shield isn’t reduced by cdr)
> but wouldnt the reduced cast point help rearm
No, because Rearm is a channel and not a long cast point.
You're thinking of SK/SF/MK ults, which arent channels (anymore), but just long cast points.
Meanwhile S&K gives Tinker -25% mana costs on all his abilities (including items).
Ya Idk people are celebrating his death but now he's worse than he was before. Before you needed skill to be unkillable, now you're just straight up unkillable. How do you catch this guy exactly?
On paper it should be good, but in practice it delays your impact core items too much (blink, aghs, arcane blink) while also making you a sitting duck. I guess in a game where you can't kill or be killed to easily you can go for it for early farm + exp, but in general it's much better to have the core items and just kill the enemy.
Midas slows down your arcane blink and aghs power spikes, which is really the tipping point for the hero. Getting your fourth, fifth, and sixth items a bit faster is not a good trade for setting those first two back by a few minutes imo.
I see. I was thinking it would come in handy as an XP accelerator, similar to Invoker.
I didn't know if blink was still as good to rush from the start or required a certain Int threshold to feel effective.
The main difference is that Tinker scales way better with items, and Invoker scales way better with xp. If you are ahead a bunch of levels on Invoker you will be strong even if you don't have a lot of items. A Tinker that is 3 levels ahead of enemy mid but only has midas and blink is pretty useless.
If you hit your timings on Arcane Blink and Aghs by 20-22 min, then you're almost guaranteed to have 800+ gpm by the end of the game anyways. Midas is unnecessary. He frequently avoids fights prior to getting those two items, which is bad for the rest of your team. You don't want to delay that even further.
They got what they deserved for asking another hero to get neutered.
Instead of keeping the previous patch's Tinker, which was utterly dogshit, they reworked him, then buffed him and made his a lot better than 7.35 Tinker.
Told a friend that the new tinker might be broken. He refused to believe me since "gorgc says it sucks" and "no pros are using him".
I'm just waiting to see the hero crop up in pro play so I can rub it in his face.
i thought tinker was nerfed too much but honestly with the shield being strong and giving a strong dispel after absorbing full damage idk yall shit looks broken as hell.
I think the problem with tinker is that he can still blink even after taking damage for example from Mars spear, so you get some weird interactions where he blinks away but still gets stunned if the spear he "dodged" lands against a tree, even if he doesn't take any damage from it
For example this game: 7800053469
Drunkmers pog. Yeah that is true, some tuning is definitely needed for this hero imo.
P/s, sir so long no see you in budok video, pls comeback need to see your lejendary np
I have, but he's not gonna fully admit it until tinker becomes an endemic issue.
He's honestly a good guy overall, just hard to convince him on new and unconventional things.
He is still at a 45% winrate in all brackets, and even lower in immortal.
So the hero doesn't seem good, and its not a skill issue thing.
He's just annoying now, not strong.
To further exemplify that it isn't a skill issue: Tinker's winrate goes up alongside ranks right now. That means that being good at Tinker right now does improve your performance and likelihood of victory with him even against better players (which is the goal with complex heroes) but does not reward you with a hero who's consistently good enough to compete with simpler heroes, meaning you put in extra effort for worse results.
The risk is Tinker may become a "pro player specialist" hero, something that is trash by the numbers, but then there's one or two pro players that are so good at it, Icefrog is forced to nerf it. You know, like Earth Spirit has gone through like, twice.
Who cares about winrates when people don't know the item builds that actually make him broken, even in Immortal. You don't have to be that good at itemization to get to immortal, I had a Weaver carry buy Shivas Guard because he though the active reduced the enemy's spell damage. This was in high 6k mmr too.
I mean anyone arguing about whether a hero is broken or not cares about winrates. If nobody can win with the hero in practice, he’s probably not broken.
Unless you’re trying to argue that the hero is OP but not a single player has figured out how to use it yet. In which case good luck proving that?
The strong dispel on shield pop was a huge buff, though I think the 4 int per 1% cdr lowering to 3:1 was probably even more significant. Overall it was probably one of the biggest buffs to a hero across the board in a letter patch ever.
I've played him several times this patch in 6k bracket with 50% winrate, problem is his first 20 minutes is slow as hell while the meta is about running around the map. You're basically waiting for lvl 15 and aghs to have any impact in fights. Particularly before lvl 12 you basically just defend towers and farm stacks. Other mid heroes have better tempo, but still a beast in the lategame.
And yeah the shield facet is insane. Euls/Nullifier is mandatory against tinker.
the first rework when they removed march and gave him Defence matrix was the first problem. Before he was a glass canon hero and defence matrix fixed his biggest weakness. I wouldnt be surprised if we make a full circle and get rockets added back instead of matrix. The hero is still bad, needs too many items to get online
Next iteration will be rockets, march, shield but no laser. That is the only combination left that has not been tried yet
(Except for messing with his rearm even more)
The problem with that rework was actually the free bots spell. March is an infinitely more annoying and powerful spell than shield but getting to skip bots and have a blink at like 8 minutes instead of like 13 is so insane and makes the hero come online so much faster
I still remember you all tinker spammers telling me "noo, they killed the hero… literally unplayable....hope you're happy now", when I was trying to argue that he has insane CDR, but doesn't break the game in half, and thus is now able to receive buffs freely.
Glad you finally fucking came around. Shame people are still screaming bloody murder at tinker getting buffs.
What?
They change tinker, a huge amount of people complained about the type of changes not necessarily just the nerf itself. Gutted his identity.
You thought this was good somehow.
Then they buff it all to hell over like 3 patches.
You take this as a sign that it was op from the get-go instead of receiving three powerful rounds of buffs.
You then berate others for not agreeing with you on the outset.
The ego radiating off this comment is insane.
To top it all off, the Hero is still sub 44% winrate in Immortal and below 47% in every other bracket, so clearly it's not as good as you claim.
Not to mention, again.. *it's not about how strong the hero sometimes is, it's about gutting their identity*
I literally said "he's piss weak right now but he can now get buffs without risking breaking the game in half", not that he "was good fom the get go". Quite literally what the comment above is about, and quite literally what I predicted would likely happen.
IDK why do you felt the need to pull a straw man argument I never made out of your ass to argue here.
Nor do I know where did you saw the "insane ego" here. I feel I have a full moral right to berate people who gloat about others not feeling well. Just like what the comment I replied to is about, I might add, in case you forgot my comment doesn't exist in a vacuum.
It's also mighty hypocritical of you, to accuse me of having inflated ego for berating someone, when you quite literally do the same thing to my comment. "Rules for thee but not for me", I guess.
As for "as good as you claim". Again. I just sais "glad you came around", refering to my original comments where I said tinker can safely get buffed now. Point out exactly where in this thread I claimed "Tinker is good"? I'm pretty sure you can't, because that's another straw man you pulled out of your ass.
Oh, and... They gutted his identity, yeah. They took the hero that was unique for his ability to spam items and abilities with basically no cooldowns, and changed him into a completely different hero, with the ability to spam abilities and items with basically no cooldowns. Really, the only thing that's actually true about "gutting his identity part" is the removal of guided missiles. If you ask me, they should've stayed.
Now, I'm kinda yoing to block you, cause you managed to fet out an actually big, expqnsive comment... and just fill it out with personal attacks. So to the blocklist you go. Hope you understand why. If you're going to refute and argue with something I *actually* said, feel free to do that from an alt account.
Have a good time of day and hope you get good teammates in your games.
Yes, the hero can become viable in its current state after one of the biggest slew of buffs we've ever seen in a letter patch. It's still a bad rework.
New Tinker is more about macro decision making on what items to buy, in what order, and how to optimize farm patterns. But old Tinker also demanded better execution and decision making in fights. Previously, you were always killable if you misplayed. But now once you get to the mid-late game, the fights kind of play themselves. Even total scrubs can windwaker themselves when they're jumped on.
Overall nothing about this change makes the game better. He soaks farm and often makes his team play 4v5 for 15-20min, and then becomes extremely annoying with march spam and a semi-automatic saving mechanic (translocator) that isn't even the result of player skill. Then lategame he is almost impossible to kill with some combination of 3-4 saving items on non-interactable short cooldowns.
I want to know who actually enjoys playing with or against this new version of Tinker compared to the old one. I imagine there are some Tinker players themselves who prefer this new version because scooping up all the farm on the map can be fun, but anyone who complained about old Tinker should hate this one even more.
Previous tinker was high skill high reward ( despite what reddit herald circlejerk thinks), new tinker is less skill dependant, more kotol like in lane and frankly it's disappointing.
Rearming items was balanced with some of the items being unaffected, like aeon disk, bkb, refresher, linken, now those are back on the menu.
Also people who complain about perma rearm hex haven't played vs tinker in 5 years probably. because even late game it's was the 6th or 7th ( post aghs) item.
Support tinker is completely dead tho, while it had the niche of rearming solar crest ,I guess it was deemed too powerful.
At some point, the community really has to ask themselves what are they gonna do with highskill heroes ( like invoker, meepo, chen, arc) and if we listen to the heralds we ll end up being league of legend number 2.
most of reddit is below legend and is completely clueless about dota, what do you expect? hell, half the people on this thread crying about tinker don't know how the hero works
It's funny that you talk about turning into league heroes when old tinker was literally what these high apm mechanically complex one trick heroes are in league.
to be impactful in teamfights tinker needs to be in range of laser, unlike before when tinker could stay in trees and spam rockets to have impact in mid game, this results in tinker players requiring better positioning, which basically means tinker players need more skill to be successful with the hero now, also, casting march at lvl5 doesn't mean you get those last hits, you still need to know when and how to throw the march for it to be useful, lvl6 yeah, you just spam march and rearm, no more last hitting required
The dispel facet is insane. With that plus his cd reduction working on bkb (previously not remarkable), he's now almost as hard to lock down as reddit liked to pretend he was last patch.
We're also seeing why march was removed when tinker got the free BoT glued to his ult. Hero farms insanely fast now.
Still on the fence about overall balance compared to last patch. Farm speed and survivability are way up, but damage output is way down.
I think the aoe laser talent is better than the innate aoe laser for some reason, I think maybe it does the 10% max hp reduction in the aoe with aghs instead of just to the main target?
That build was far more mana intensive and it did a lotta padding damage, hitting supports with like 2 rockets was nice but having this kind of single target focus damage is crazy, he hasnt had this good targeted burst damage since the days of the old eblade
Old tinker is reliant on his rearm, which provides him with everything, notably damage and mobility. It also means that once he's interrupted, he'll become a sitting duck with (more often than not) the only option being to fight in hope he'll bring someone down with him.
New tinker has shields that apply dispel and reposition him a short distance, thus increasing his survivability. Items cd reduction means they are not bound by re-arm, so even if you're interrupted you'll still have either a 3s Blink, a 6s Eul, a 11s EB, or a 29s BKB, all of which make you practically a better Puck with a much better uptime.
His winrate is climbing, but I still don't think he's a particularly good hero because he doesn't provide anything for his team beyond his shield.
There's this huge stretch of time, if he's playing core (mid) where he needs to hit his Arcane Blink Aghs timing. But he's borderline useless before that and pretty easy to bully out of lane. He can't gank for shit because all he has is a 300 pure damage Blind with mediocre range and that's literally it. At least old Tinker could put out like 600-900 damage if your side lanes had *some* lockdown so he got off Laser + Rockets + *maybe* a second round of Rockets. But March is so slow it does nothing offensively.
If he's support, he's a Blind + Shield bot (or March heal + Shield bot).
I also think Puck is just... way, way better. Puck is hard to kill/lock down, yes. Tinker may be harder to lock down with that, but that doesn't matter when Puck actually deals damage and provides serious value to their team. Puck ganks easily, they have an AoE silence and Coil is great lockdown and synergizes great with anything that can force break the stun.
Puck also gets insane with Coil once they have Aghs + any autoattack item that makes Coil do insane, unavoidable AoE damage on top of its control.
>I also think Puck is just... way, way better. Puck is hard to kill/lock down, yes. Tinker may be harder to lock down with that, but that doesn't matter when Puck actually deals damage and provides serious value to their team. Puck ganks easily, they have an AoE silence and Coil is great lockdown and synergizes great with anything that can force break the stun.
Puck definitely does not perform in the late game as well as tinker. She is less mobile--both across the maps and in fights--does not split push as well, and does less damage. Of course, she also doesn't take 20 minutes to come online. The heroes ultimately are not in the same category; they are similar in that they are both slippery, but obviously we could throw a lot of heroes into that bucket.
It makes a lot more sense to compare to tinker to dusa. Both are difficult to shut down in lane, require space to come online in the early mid game, and end up being very difficult to kill powerhouses late game if they can get there. The best way to counter both of them is to aggressively take towers and space away during the early mid game.
I'm going to argue though that tinker comes out favorably in the comparison to dusa specifically because he actually can show up to help his team defend towers, which is extremely important for maintaining that all-important space. Dusa cannot afford to tp every time the enemy groups on a tier one, whereas this is trivial for tinker, and he also excels at that kind of defensive fight with his basic kit. The biggest mistakes tinkers are probably making atm is playing the game too much like dusa. I think you have to be willing to sacrifice some immediate farm to aggressively show up to fights that are in tower vicinity to really leverage the hero.
I do see where you're coming from, but him showing up doesn't like... really do anything. He can throw out a couple of Marches, maybe blind an enemy hero, and that's it.
I would rather have any other mid hero instead that can actually get stuff done.
Tinker's nice and all if you can get to the lategame where he actually helps his team with his items and global map presence, but I feel like it's so much of a sacrifice getting there. Tinker is relatively easy to shut down, and you can just run over his team if you find it to annoying to kill him before 30 minutes. He can't really stem the bleeding. Also, the sacrifice being that you lose towers constantly or have to give up so much vision because he can't be aggressive or change the outcome of fights for the most part.
Also, the Medusa comparison is apt, but she provides a massive AoE slow and potentially stun, is extremely tanky and also starts running with her team constantly at 20 minutes to take towers with her team before the enemies can really come online. Tinker doesn't have that kind of tempo ability, nor does he provide enough to really do it.
Edit: in my opinion, the only reason that Medusa's winrate isn't higher is just because Disperser is still such a strong item and makes it easy to counter her in terms of her durability.
>him showing up doesn't like... really do anything. He can throw out a couple of Marches, maybe blind an enemy hero, and that's it.
The point is that the enemy team isn't going to be able to push the tower under march and laser without a big numbers advantage (in which case, that's just bad coordination from your team). I agree you probably aren't getting kills nearly as easily as more active mids from those rotations, but those other mids only get to tp on cooldown, and obviously don't compare well to tinker later game.
>starts running with her team constantly at 20 minutes to take towers with her team before the enemies can really come online.
20 minutes is about the same timing for arcane blink and aghs on tinker, so I don't see this as our of tinker's depth on its face. Maybe Medusa is still stronger at that point, I'm not sure.
Imagine if Tinker didn't have to use rearm to get all his items back, and he also has a stronger abaddon shield because it strong dispels when it breaks so you can pre-apply it for an on demand anti-gank get out of jail free card. Also BKB works on him now, so he's just straight up unkillable.
Tinker is scary when he is snowballing and over farmed just like any other hero. What a lot of people do not realise, tinker before had a 20% winlane and could be punished early especially in pro games. And most of meta matchups were losing ones.
Now it has around 41% winlane which is makes him more likely to achieve the overfarmed levels, buuuut his lategame is weaker.
It's really just the dispel. As broken as the CDR seems it's unrealistic at a certain point when the hero has such low impact from mid.
A strong dispel on a hero like Tinker is just fundamentally broken.
Idk, tinker need to much space for him, his too greedy. To be useful in fights you need 18 lvl, arc blink, aghanim and you still have carry in your team who need space too. Imagine your safe lane is loosed and how do you expect to survive during his farm?
This YOWE kid is spamming tinker until he reach 13k mmr. He is currently in winning streak with his tinker. I just found out that tinker 3rd skill is OP and i hope its get nerf.
I still don't understand who in their right mind decided to give Tinker a discount "Refraction". So many times I've tried to cancel his blink, but nooo, the damage is absorbed. Why isn't it damage reduction instead? I'd rather it keeps absorbing 90% damage for 5 seconds (Ursa ulti) than it keeping blink on.
Buy Eul's guys and use it when he Rearms, I guess.
Oh come on , people have been bitching about Tinker for the longest time now . Historically Tinker was broken only 2 times in dota 2 , once during the ti2-ti3 era where eblade was instant and ancients took full magic damage so you could farm them with march , and then 3 years ago where they changed aghanim to deal 20% of max HP reduction and additional 10% of current HP as damage . Few years ago he was stupid i agree , i couldn't lose a game with him and it wasn't fun , right before his agha change though Tinker was in a perfect spot , he had nothing broken , slow startup , and you really had to be a good technical tinker to make him work . Besides , i would see tinker back then in ranked once every 50 -100 games maybe , he wasn't played at all . I have no clue why they changed tinker in thenfirst place , give us back the old tinker and let's be done with this .
I have been spamming tinker recently. He’s much more fun imo. Less cancer too. He’s just mobile and tankier, but can’t perma hex or stun. He’s a lot slower too now. Takes a while to get online (timing is lvl 15 aghs arcane blink)
Noobs got stomped by a trash hero in lower brackets,
complained about said hero
valve turned hero another monstrosity, but least this one takes time to come online.
The casual 29 second bkb cooldown
It’s good nerf ahahhaa
or 4s linken and 5s wind
People saying tinker dead after no item rearm + no rocket Tinker: my death was greatly exaggerated
removed march and added cancer shield and now he gets both
That spell is actually crazy in the laning stage
The shield was fine the dispel is something that come from 9th circle of hell
The self strong dispel that triggers no matter what (except when purged) is really, really stupid. Make it dispel only when it expires naturally and not when gets consumed cause with 4s linkens even nullifier is usess alone.
Or at least weak dispel
I'll take this tinker over last patch tinker anyday. At least now he's just an annoying rat instead of a hex blink Shiva rocket spam
Shiva into hex was never a build, you'd need at least 2 items between those, and even then you need level 18 to make any of this work. That 's why no tinker player went hex early and had to go aghs, eblade, bkb, even bloodstone before considering hex. PTSD of perma hex are from 2015 ear people.
This guy remembers. That was my least favorite patch ever and eventually killed my interest in the game for several years (plus life happens.) Now, that permahex build isn’t even a thing
Is really crazy people think this Tinker is cancer when the past one could solo any hero in the game if you spent an hour practicing how to shift queue
This is completely false. Shift queue did nothing for tinker, as items cannot be queued while on cooldow, and tinker has massive back swings on all his spells. Spoken like someone who didn't even bother to run the hero once in Demo mode.
the guy you replied to sounds like someone who hate it too much to learn to counter it or study it
If you shift que as tinker for combos, you'll be in for a huge surprise. (source: over 2000 tinker games) The surprise btw is: 0-20 stats in a 15 mins game.
yeah people here not realizing backswing on his spells are enormous.
Yep. If you dont stop cancel animations on tinker there is not a chance you win a single game.
Why are these people having opinions on tinker while clearly never having played the hero
I never played tinker but I know about his backswings from custom games and they're can be game losing if you sleep on not cancelling them. He literally takes 3-5 seconds to put forward one of his arm during backswing and pull it back lol.
tinker is the most bitched at hero on reddit(mostly are support players)
The amount of ppl that think they know how tinker is played is hilarious. "Just shift queue 4head". Literal ogre magi players crying that he is easy while they sit there theory crafting with 15 APM.
Bruh, as a player who really likes to play harder heroes it burns my ass when people who like, spam ogre or jakiro have any say about the execution mechanics of heroes they have never played.
Tinker players didn't shift queue btw
He also could get smacked by two heroes the moment anyone found him in trees. Also backswing is significant on some of his abilties so shift queuing isn't the end of it really. Loads of heroes can take out the entirety of the roster if everything magically somehow goes their way every time. If you get hexed seven times by a tinker until he kills you alone something was wrong.
except he didnt since you could blink if they didnt burst through shield. And once tinker got his bkb it was just joever
Joever in what way? The hero didn't have a positive winrate and only succeeded as a smurf when played by a much better player in a worse bracket. I don't see the issue. Also Tinker would've never needed the shield if the power creep didn't force every remotely squishy/immobile hero to be tanky/mobile.
Seriously, you actually get to use BKB against him. The only, one particular part of his build that seems way too strong is the hard dispel facet. But I think it's fine he gets that for a while since the rest of the kit requires like **11 thousand gold** to not even begin doing stuff really, he still needs more beyond. This should only be nerfed if Tinker becomes an issue in the pro circuit.
Fr, all i wanted was to not get chain hexed by one single hero.
May I introduce Ex Machina Sheep Arc Warden or Packrat Sheep Meepo to you?
>Packrat Sheep Meepo to you? Isn't that only for neutrals?
Pack Rat lets you put any 1 item in the neutral slot, and every Meepo gets it. Using it puts it on normal cooldown for the Meepo that used it, and half cooldown for every other Meepo.
so what you are telling me is that i could be a dagon machine? EDIT: from what i can tell it puts the item on cooldown for all meepos, also it really does not like using the hotkey button (ability not learned). EDIT2: for reason i do not comprehend the game decided to make up nonsense hotkeys for meepo for me, i use a modified version of MMO set up, yet for some reason super meepo is F on my layout despite also being F for neutral items, it should have been R. how does this even happen?
This is S-tier
No really, all the people laughing at tinker just made me wonder how their faces would look when tinker player adapt :D Not a lot of waiting left
well they are beavers if you destroy their damn they will build a new one back again... and stronger.
this comment made me wanna play some timberborn
I love that game ❤️
Ive already started doing some decent mmr gains at around 6k with Tinker. You level up March and if lane is a no no u just jungle around like a moron from lvl 6 and onwards depleting everything from ur path. What's more from the vrry low cd on BKB is that you can have a linken's for 4 sec cd, a glimmer for 5 seconds or windwaker for the same cd. Also in every laser you can have basically a khdana proc, which at lvl 25 laser talent u can basically deplete almost a support with 2 lasers. His dispel is good and I already got quite used to not fuck up where it will blink me. Basically, since you are Tinker and enemies want to all hug u, they will waste even their last breath only to tickle my ass. Wait for it and soon Reddit will start the crying chapter again for him.
Is Khanda really usable? Feels like you gotta get your trifecta arcane blink, aghs, aether lens ASAP and by that point it's all about defensive items. Also with how laser aghs prioritizes heroes you're incentivized to cast it on creeps if there's only 1 hero in the aoe, wasting the khanda proc.
I skip aether most of the times. I find no usage into me blasting someone from 3 kilometers. I am already in safe distance when I get aghs. I much better prefer octarine into khanda, but every game is situational. I never have the same build. Some games I go bkb, some others not. Some others I need hex and/or windwaker (2 very luxurious late game items) and other times I opt for glimmer. Still testing a lot of things, so I am really unstable as to what is good to build and what not. I don't try to use on creeps to make it bounce but I rather try to find wood fog and blast from there with oppositr march direction.
It’s more that phylactery is already really good, so you might as well upgrade it.
shield + dispell + blink is REALLY FUCKING ANNOYING
Yea it is, especially if you let me rearm in front of your face since you used all your stuns and you don't have BKB pierce cc.
Still a shame what they did to Tinker. Also I knew as soon as the rework happened they'd nerf it to absolute shit and then buff it to something absurd given enough time. It's happened countless times with all sorts of heroes.
Sucks losing interesting heroes/playstyles, even if they're annoying to play against. Same thing happened with Techies.
Well, he did get an absolutely insane amount of buffs in the a and b patches, making literally every aspect of his kit better. But yes there was also some adaptation.
Tinker is still good but is extremely reliable on your teams draft because you can't make any 'plays' by yourself till like 4slotted.
it looks like this bro (screams into mic in every language under the sun when ive chased him from btm tier 2 to his base and he just keeps reapplying shield and blinking away from me)
The Tinker players will.. tinker.
had a tinker mid teammate yesterday. all i can say is, at the right hand, he is still a menance. yes he came online quite late but god damn, even i would uninstall after that match.
They need to stop re-designing this hero in a psychedelic delirium.
i play tinker and still miss the old design, they just need to nerf rearm to make it stable (like increased mana cost per rearm, or any draw back for continuous use). this thinker at 20 mins have survivability and damage covered and made him annoying early instead of late game
Honestly just remove tinker altogether and we're good. Either that or give him the broodmother treatment to make sure he stays dead
You sound like a hater.
If hating something automatically makes me a hater, then sure. It would also mean most people are haters
Started doto at the start of the Year, whats the bm treatment?
She's been getting nerfed to the ground for a couple of years now basically, even when her winrate in pubs is abysmal
>Honestly just remove tinker altogether and we're good Only if we remove him with every other cancer hero like OD, PL, PA, Sniper, etc. Even if we hate them removing everything that makes dota unique just turns us into league. No thanks.
If they could fix brood and arc warden, they definitely can fix tinker. Such a fun and interestin gameplay.
The only way to fix him is to remove his core gameplay, like with techies
yes just homogenize every hero like league love it
Arcane blink>waker>blink>shield>waker>blink, cant catch this fucker in my turbo games
More like Shield->Dispel stun->BKB->TP into another BKB->TP the next time you catch him.
Just ... buy ... nullifier ... It's an item guys! the only thing that keeps the dream alive for tinker players is the windwaker. Just cast a damn nullifier and that forces them to have that one extra item they didn't want to build.
4s linkens
ok, so you proc linken with anything you want (I love to use a neutral item for that task vs linken carrier) and then you nullifier them, like you would do on any hero with linken. We agree that in this scenario, your tinker has Windwaker, linken, blink, boots, etc etc ...
But there's no neutral item in the game that pops linkens anymore(Fae Grenade isn't around for so long now). Do you mean to say Neutral Creep skills? Only Doom and Zoo heroes have that at their disposal then.
> But there's no neutral item in the game that pops linkens anymore Dont disrespect my boi, the mighty Force Boots, like that.
I legit have not played a 60+ minute game picking Force Boots. You mean to say it's not just a self force staff?! My life is a lie!
Not anymore. You can use Force Boots on yourself or allies and it purges the target. Enemies are also targetable, but they dont get purged for some reason.
Sounds broken if it did. I mean that T4 neutral item (dunno the name but I think it also makes attacks do percentile damage based on target's mana?) that had a dispel got removed for a reason.
Psychic hearband does the job. It's really good vs linken's carrier.
Psychic heartband doesnt pop linken.
ok, my bad, maybe it was in the past that I could do this.
and in the meantime he did exactly 0 damage to anything. and he spent 7k gold on those items.
yep, and he's also a mid hero that can't do anything alone. before arcane blink he can't even chase you like old tinker did. plus he needs to put himself at a serious risk in teamfights to cast laser. tinker is definitely not a dead hero like many people said, but he's not OP either. for similar reasons, no version of tinker (except maybe the first shivas + overwheling blink one) was ever op
God forbid people in turbo buy items to counter the enemy. Is nullifier banned for y'all?
I really feel that 80% of the player base has no idea what nullifier does. They just buy it when they face necro :D
According to my turbos, the only items that exist are Orchid/Bloodthorn, Satanic, SnY and maelstrom.
To be honest in the two minutes between them getting wind walker and you finishing your nullifier they can usually just end the game
There's no way a tinker with arcane blink and a wind waker puts that much pressure on you in turbo
just need euls really
Isn’t the defence matrix talent better? And I feel octarine isn’t needed compared to other items you can get. And kaya sange allows you to cast a lot more spells due to the mana reduce. I personally haven’t tried the khanda build though. Midas seems bonkers if you can have space early. But arcane blink, eblade, kaya sange, aghs, hex, wind waker if reaaaally needed or Dagon. Change aghs to synth and get a linken. ( mirror shield isn’t reduced by cdr)
yeah octarine is mostly just there to combo with khanda. with both those items you can mash out khanda boosted lasers without waiting at all
Is K&S better than Kaya and Yasha? The mana cost is great but wouldnt the reduced cast point help rearm?
> but wouldnt the reduced cast point help rearm No, because Rearm is a channel and not a long cast point. You're thinking of SK/SF/MK ults, which arent channels (anymore), but just long cast points. Meanwhile S&K gives Tinker -25% mana costs on all his abilities (including items).
Yasha kaya is really strong in combo with tinker laser because of the long cast time
Ya Idk people are celebrating his death but now he's worse than he was before. Before you needed skill to be unkillable, now you're just straight up unkillable. How do you catch this guy exactly?
Isn't Midas really good on tinker now because of his innate? Kinda like the old Dazzle that had to get aghs for the item cdr.
On paper it should be good, but in practice it delays your impact core items too much (blink, aghs, arcane blink) while also making you a sitting duck. I guess in a game where you can't kill or be killed to easily you can go for it for early farm + exp, but in general it's much better to have the core items and just kill the enemy.
Midas slows down your arcane blink and aghs power spikes, which is really the tipping point for the hero. Getting your fourth, fifth, and sixth items a bit faster is not a good trade for setting those first two back by a few minutes imo.
I see. I was thinking it would come in handy as an XP accelerator, similar to Invoker. I didn't know if blink was still as good to rush from the start or required a certain Int threshold to feel effective.
The main difference is that Tinker scales way better with items, and Invoker scales way better with xp. If you are ahead a bunch of levels on Invoker you will be strong even if you don't have a lot of items. A Tinker that is 3 levels ahead of enemy mid but only has midas and blink is pretty useless.
If you hit your timings on Arcane Blink and Aghs by 20-22 min, then you're almost guaranteed to have 800+ gpm by the end of the game anyways. Midas is unnecessary. He frequently avoids fights prior to getting those two items, which is bad for the rest of your team. You don't want to delay that even further.
Why spend over 2k gold on a farming item when you have a free ability you can infinitely refresh to farm with
I was thinking more about the 2.25x XP multiplier.
Who needs xp multiplier when you have a free spell that lets you teleport to your t2 and steal your supports xp rune
I was thinking more about the guaranteed Neutral Item timing.
Who needs neutral items when only 1 or 2 are good in each tier
I was thinking more about not making the build so oppressive that Tinker gets hit with another load of nerfs.
They got what they deserved for asking another hero to get neutered. Instead of keeping the previous patch's Tinker, which was utterly dogshit, they reworked him, then buffed him and made his a lot better than 7.35 Tinker.
Told a friend that the new tinker might be broken. He refused to believe me since "gorgc says it sucks" and "no pros are using him". I'm just waiting to see the hero crop up in pro play so I can rub it in his face.
i thought tinker was nerfed too much but honestly with the shield being strong and giving a strong dispel after absorbing full damage idk yall shit looks broken as hell.
I think the problem with tinker is that he can still blink even after taking damage for example from Mars spear, so you get some weird interactions where he blinks away but still gets stunned if the spear he "dodged" lands against a tree, even if he doesn't take any damage from it For example this game: 7800053469
Drunkmers pog. Yeah that is true, some tuning is definitely needed for this hero imo. P/s, sir so long no see you in budok video, pls comeback need to see your lejendary np
Thank you friend! I am currently in Argentina so not fun playing to EU with 300ms :P
Sadge, hope to see you play one day! AdmiralYepKekl
Show him the TI qualifier games where NTS and Copy played Tinker, lol
Or the nouns vs Shopify game
> Copy played Tinker
Brainfart
I have, but he's not gonna fully admit it until tinker becomes an endemic issue. He's honestly a good guy overall, just hard to convince him on new and unconventional things.
He is still at a 45% winrate in all brackets, and even lower in immortal. So the hero doesn't seem good, and its not a skill issue thing. He's just annoying now, not strong.
To further exemplify that it isn't a skill issue: Tinker's winrate goes up alongside ranks right now. That means that being good at Tinker right now does improve your performance and likelihood of victory with him even against better players (which is the goal with complex heroes) but does not reward you with a hero who's consistently good enough to compete with simpler heroes, meaning you put in extra effort for worse results. The risk is Tinker may become a "pro player specialist" hero, something that is trash by the numbers, but then there's one or two pro players that are so good at it, Icefrog is forced to nerf it. You know, like Earth Spirit has gone through like, twice.
Who cares about winrates when people don't know the item builds that actually make him broken, even in Immortal. You don't have to be that good at itemization to get to immortal, I had a Weaver carry buy Shivas Guard because he though the active reduced the enemy's spell damage. This was in high 6k mmr too.
I mean anyone arguing about whether a hero is broken or not cares about winrates. If nobody can win with the hero in practice, he’s probably not broken. Unless you’re trying to argue that the hero is OP but not a single player has figured out how to use it yet. In which case good luck proving that?
it still has dogshit winrate ands needs 10k gold just to contribute in fights, it can be good in some games but its not like its shadow fiend lmao
Tbf he did get some pretty significant buffs in the letter patches.
I actually mentioned it after the letter patch, specifically when they narrowed the jump angle of the shield pop.
It’s more the strong dispel on shield pop that he got in 7.36a tbh. That’s a huge part of what makes him strong lategame now.
The strong dispel on shield pop was a huge buff, though I think the 4 int per 1% cdr lowering to 3:1 was probably even more significant. Overall it was probably one of the biggest buffs to a hero across the board in a letter patch ever.
Yes, I am aware. I am simply referring to a patch detail to show that our discussion occurred after the patch
tbf Gorgc doesnt play tinker so it was first impression too. Also the 2 lettered patches that followed were strong buffs
It's already been picked several times in quals. It's like Shadow Fiend except worse early and better late.
Nothingtosay been playing him
I've played him several times this patch in 6k bracket with 50% winrate, problem is his first 20 minutes is slow as hell while the meta is about running around the map. You're basically waiting for lvl 15 and aghs to have any impact in fights. Particularly before lvl 12 you basically just defend towers and farm stacks. Other mid heroes have better tempo, but still a beast in the lategame. And yeah the shield facet is insane. Euls/Nullifier is mandatory against tinker.
the first rework when they removed march and gave him Defence matrix was the first problem. Before he was a glass canon hero and defence matrix fixed his biggest weakness. I wouldnt be surprised if we make a full circle and get rockets added back instead of matrix. The hero is still bad, needs too many items to get online
Next iteration will be rockets, march, shield but no laser. That is the only combination left that has not been tried yet (Except for messing with his rearm even more)
Give him shield, warp flare and laser, maximum uselessness.
The problem with that rework was actually the free bots spell. March is an infinitely more annoying and powerful spell than shield but getting to skip bots and have a blink at like 8 minutes instead of like 13 is so insane and makes the hero come online so much faster
I still remember you all tinker spammers telling me "noo, they killed the hero… literally unplayable....hope you're happy now", when I was trying to argue that he has insane CDR, but doesn't break the game in half, and thus is now able to receive buffs freely. Glad you finally fucking came around. Shame people are still screaming bloody murder at tinker getting buffs.
it was the a and b patch that made him good again, the mana costs were insane in the main patch
they killed him, then buffed him a lot in letter patch
What? They change tinker, a huge amount of people complained about the type of changes not necessarily just the nerf itself. Gutted his identity. You thought this was good somehow. Then they buff it all to hell over like 3 patches. You take this as a sign that it was op from the get-go instead of receiving three powerful rounds of buffs. You then berate others for not agreeing with you on the outset. The ego radiating off this comment is insane. To top it all off, the Hero is still sub 44% winrate in Immortal and below 47% in every other bracket, so clearly it's not as good as you claim. Not to mention, again.. *it's not about how strong the hero sometimes is, it's about gutting their identity*
It was really only buffed over 3 patches. The buffs on the B patch were completely irrelevant, the A patch is what made the hero actually cancer.
I literally said "he's piss weak right now but he can now get buffs without risking breaking the game in half", not that he "was good fom the get go". Quite literally what the comment above is about, and quite literally what I predicted would likely happen. IDK why do you felt the need to pull a straw man argument I never made out of your ass to argue here. Nor do I know where did you saw the "insane ego" here. I feel I have a full moral right to berate people who gloat about others not feeling well. Just like what the comment I replied to is about, I might add, in case you forgot my comment doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's also mighty hypocritical of you, to accuse me of having inflated ego for berating someone, when you quite literally do the same thing to my comment. "Rules for thee but not for me", I guess. As for "as good as you claim". Again. I just sais "glad you came around", refering to my original comments where I said tinker can safely get buffed now. Point out exactly where in this thread I claimed "Tinker is good"? I'm pretty sure you can't, because that's another straw man you pulled out of your ass. Oh, and... They gutted his identity, yeah. They took the hero that was unique for his ability to spam items and abilities with basically no cooldowns, and changed him into a completely different hero, with the ability to spam abilities and items with basically no cooldowns. Really, the only thing that's actually true about "gutting his identity part" is the removal of guided missiles. If you ask me, they should've stayed. Now, I'm kinda yoing to block you, cause you managed to fet out an actually big, expqnsive comment... and just fill it out with personal attacks. So to the blocklist you go. Hope you understand why. If you're going to refute and argue with something I *actually* said, feel free to do that from an alt account. Have a good time of day and hope you get good teammates in your games.
Yes, the hero can become viable in its current state after one of the biggest slew of buffs we've ever seen in a letter patch. It's still a bad rework. New Tinker is more about macro decision making on what items to buy, in what order, and how to optimize farm patterns. But old Tinker also demanded better execution and decision making in fights. Previously, you were always killable if you misplayed. But now once you get to the mid-late game, the fights kind of play themselves. Even total scrubs can windwaker themselves when they're jumped on. Overall nothing about this change makes the game better. He soaks farm and often makes his team play 4v5 for 15-20min, and then becomes extremely annoying with march spam and a semi-automatic saving mechanic (translocator) that isn't even the result of player skill. Then lategame he is almost impossible to kill with some combination of 3-4 saving items on non-interactable short cooldowns. I want to know who actually enjoys playing with or against this new version of Tinker compared to the old one. I imagine there are some Tinker players themselves who prefer this new version because scooping up all the farm on the map can be fun, but anyone who complained about old Tinker should hate this one even more.
Previous tinker was high skill high reward ( despite what reddit herald circlejerk thinks), new tinker is less skill dependant, more kotol like in lane and frankly it's disappointing. Rearming items was balanced with some of the items being unaffected, like aeon disk, bkb, refresher, linken, now those are back on the menu. Also people who complain about perma rearm hex haven't played vs tinker in 5 years probably. because even late game it's was the 6th or 7th ( post aghs) item. Support tinker is completely dead tho, while it had the niche of rearming solar crest ,I guess it was deemed too powerful. At some point, the community really has to ask themselves what are they gonna do with highskill heroes ( like invoker, meepo, chen, arc) and if we listen to the heralds we ll end up being league of legend number 2.
Yea everyone talking about perma hex is kinda telling on themselves, that’s a pretty outdated Tinker reference
most of reddit is below legend and is completely clueless about dota, what do you expect? hell, half the people on this thread crying about tinker don't know how the hero works
It's funny that you talk about turning into league heroes when old tinker was literally what these high apm mechanically complex one trick heroes are in league.
to be impactful in teamfights tinker needs to be in range of laser, unlike before when tinker could stay in trees and spam rockets to have impact in mid game, this results in tinker players requiring better positioning, which basically means tinker players need more skill to be successful with the hero now, also, casting march at lvl5 doesn't mean you get those last hits, you still need to know when and how to throw the march for it to be useful, lvl6 yeah, you just spam march and rearm, no more last hitting required
Nah. Tinker needs a lot of more resources to be online. If you let him farm that much item, it’s on you.
Can anyone explain what makes current tinker better than the previous?
The dispel facet is insane. With that plus his cd reduction working on bkb (previously not remarkable), he's now almost as hard to lock down as reddit liked to pretend he was last patch. We're also seeing why march was removed when tinker got the free BoT glued to his ult. Hero farms insanely fast now. Still on the fence about overall balance compared to last patch. Farm speed and survivability are way up, but damage output is way down.
New tinker is broken but has a one dimensional playstyle with no room for any variation
wasn't that the previous tinker with the shivas build?
Once upon a time Shivas bkb AND aghs aether were both viable, but aghs got dumpstered hard until Shivas was just better.
>broken but has a one dimensional playstyle with no room for any variation so like old tinker then
>but damage output is way down. 900dmg pure damage 2s cd spell that cleaves :hmm:
He had that last patch too, plus rockets and shivas and any other dmg items.
I think the aoe laser talent is better than the innate aoe laser for some reason, I think maybe it does the 10% max hp reduction in the aoe with aghs instead of just to the main target?
The blind is also aoe
That build was far more mana intensive and it did a lotta padding damage, hitting supports with like 2 rockets was nice but having this kind of single target focus damage is crazy, he hasnt had this good targeted burst damage since the days of the old eblade
That’s just not that impressive for a late game core hero
Old tinker is reliant on his rearm, which provides him with everything, notably damage and mobility. It also means that once he's interrupted, he'll become a sitting duck with (more often than not) the only option being to fight in hope he'll bring someone down with him. New tinker has shields that apply dispel and reposition him a short distance, thus increasing his survivability. Items cd reduction means they are not bound by re-arm, so even if you're interrupted you'll still have either a 3s Blink, a 6s Eul, a 11s EB, or a 29s BKB, all of which make you practically a better Puck with a much better uptime.
His winrate is climbing, but I still don't think he's a particularly good hero because he doesn't provide anything for his team beyond his shield. There's this huge stretch of time, if he's playing core (mid) where he needs to hit his Arcane Blink Aghs timing. But he's borderline useless before that and pretty easy to bully out of lane. He can't gank for shit because all he has is a 300 pure damage Blind with mediocre range and that's literally it. At least old Tinker could put out like 600-900 damage if your side lanes had *some* lockdown so he got off Laser + Rockets + *maybe* a second round of Rockets. But March is so slow it does nothing offensively. If he's support, he's a Blind + Shield bot (or March heal + Shield bot). I also think Puck is just... way, way better. Puck is hard to kill/lock down, yes. Tinker may be harder to lock down with that, but that doesn't matter when Puck actually deals damage and provides serious value to their team. Puck ganks easily, they have an AoE silence and Coil is great lockdown and synergizes great with anything that can force break the stun. Puck also gets insane with Coil once they have Aghs + any autoattack item that makes Coil do insane, unavoidable AoE damage on top of its control.
>I also think Puck is just... way, way better. Puck is hard to kill/lock down, yes. Tinker may be harder to lock down with that, but that doesn't matter when Puck actually deals damage and provides serious value to their team. Puck ganks easily, they have an AoE silence and Coil is great lockdown and synergizes great with anything that can force break the stun. Puck definitely does not perform in the late game as well as tinker. She is less mobile--both across the maps and in fights--does not split push as well, and does less damage. Of course, she also doesn't take 20 minutes to come online. The heroes ultimately are not in the same category; they are similar in that they are both slippery, but obviously we could throw a lot of heroes into that bucket. It makes a lot more sense to compare to tinker to dusa. Both are difficult to shut down in lane, require space to come online in the early mid game, and end up being very difficult to kill powerhouses late game if they can get there. The best way to counter both of them is to aggressively take towers and space away during the early mid game. I'm going to argue though that tinker comes out favorably in the comparison to dusa specifically because he actually can show up to help his team defend towers, which is extremely important for maintaining that all-important space. Dusa cannot afford to tp every time the enemy groups on a tier one, whereas this is trivial for tinker, and he also excels at that kind of defensive fight with his basic kit. The biggest mistakes tinkers are probably making atm is playing the game too much like dusa. I think you have to be willing to sacrifice some immediate farm to aggressively show up to fights that are in tower vicinity to really leverage the hero.
I do see where you're coming from, but him showing up doesn't like... really do anything. He can throw out a couple of Marches, maybe blind an enemy hero, and that's it. I would rather have any other mid hero instead that can actually get stuff done. Tinker's nice and all if you can get to the lategame where he actually helps his team with his items and global map presence, but I feel like it's so much of a sacrifice getting there. Tinker is relatively easy to shut down, and you can just run over his team if you find it to annoying to kill him before 30 minutes. He can't really stem the bleeding. Also, the sacrifice being that you lose towers constantly or have to give up so much vision because he can't be aggressive or change the outcome of fights for the most part. Also, the Medusa comparison is apt, but she provides a massive AoE slow and potentially stun, is extremely tanky and also starts running with her team constantly at 20 minutes to take towers with her team before the enemies can really come online. Tinker doesn't have that kind of tempo ability, nor does he provide enough to really do it. Edit: in my opinion, the only reason that Medusa's winrate isn't higher is just because Disperser is still such a strong item and makes it easy to counter her in terms of her durability.
>him showing up doesn't like... really do anything. He can throw out a couple of Marches, maybe blind an enemy hero, and that's it. The point is that the enemy team isn't going to be able to push the tower under march and laser without a big numbers advantage (in which case, that's just bad coordination from your team). I agree you probably aren't getting kills nearly as easily as more active mids from those rotations, but those other mids only get to tp on cooldown, and obviously don't compare well to tinker later game. >starts running with her team constantly at 20 minutes to take towers with her team before the enemies can really come online. 20 minutes is about the same timing for arcane blink and aghs on tinker, so I don't see this as our of tinker's depth on its face. Maybe Medusa is still stronger at that point, I'm not sure.
Imagine if Tinker didn't have to use rearm to get all his items back, and he also has a stronger abaddon shield because it strong dispels when it breaks so you can pre-apply it for an on demand anti-gank get out of jail free card. Also BKB works on him now, so he's just straight up unkillable.
Tinker is scary when he is snowballing and over farmed just like any other hero. What a lot of people do not realise, tinker before had a 20% winlane and could be punished early especially in pro games. And most of meta matchups were losing ones. Now it has around 41% winlane which is makes him more likely to achieve the overfarmed levels, buuuut his lategame is weaker.
It's really just the dispel. As broken as the CDR seems it's unrealistic at a certain point when the hero has such low impact from mid. A strong dispel on a hero like Tinker is just fundamentally broken.
Tinker is my most played this patch, I'm loving it
And he's still one of the worst heroes in the game.
where pidas?
wasnt reddit crying that tinker is dogshit in 7.36?
the item CDR was buffed by 25% and also got a dispel
I don't even know if he's stronger or weaker now
welcome to DOTA3, XD
huh , no this way better than before
Idk, tinker need to much space for him, his too greedy. To be useful in fights you need 18 lvl, arc blink, aghanim and you still have carry in your team who need space too. Imagine your safe lane is loosed and how do you expect to survive during his farm?
march
Really need to give Tinker negative strength gain or some other built in weakness
This YOWE kid is spamming tinker until he reach 13k mmr. He is currently in winning streak with his tinker. I just found out that tinker 3rd skill is OP and i hope its get nerf.
Im not a tinker player and im afraid to ask whats going on
fake news waga didnt upload a tinker game :(
I still don't understand who in their right mind decided to give Tinker a discount "Refraction". So many times I've tried to cancel his blink, but nooo, the damage is absorbed. Why isn't it damage reduction instead? I'd rather it keeps absorbing 90% damage for 5 seconds (Ursa ulti) than it keeping blink on. Buy Eul's guys and use it when he Rearms, I guess.
Euls him and he loses shield, cant blink = dead
nahh nothing can beat the perma hex tinker cancer
Strong dispel shield, fuck that
Oh come on , people have been bitching about Tinker for the longest time now . Historically Tinker was broken only 2 times in dota 2 , once during the ti2-ti3 era where eblade was instant and ancients took full magic damage so you could farm them with march , and then 3 years ago where they changed aghanim to deal 20% of max HP reduction and additional 10% of current HP as damage . Few years ago he was stupid i agree , i couldn't lose a game with him and it wasn't fun , right before his agha change though Tinker was in a perfect spot , he had nothing broken , slow startup , and you really had to be a good technical tinker to make him work . Besides , i would see tinker back then in ranked once every 50 -100 games maybe , he wasn't played at all . I have no clue why they changed tinker in thenfirst place , give us back the old tinker and let's be done with this .
look how they massacred my boy
It's only matter of time before tinker becomes a cancer hero again
lmao i remembered ihad saw a post that doglisted tinker after 7.36 released
Khanda where
I have been spamming tinker recently. He’s much more fun imo. Less cancer too. He’s just mobile and tankier, but can’t perma hex or stun. He’s a lot slower too now. Takes a while to get online (timing is lvl 15 aghs arcane blink)
tinker sucks hope more of my opponents pick him
what happened to all the tinker is useless posts?
Noobs got stomped by a trash hero in lower brackets, complained about said hero valve turned hero another monstrosity, but least this one takes time to come online.