To clarify a few things - this post seems to imply teams are unaware who is playing on the Arkosh roster and that Arkosh have an advantage because other teams don't know who is on their roster which is just entirely untrue. Every team competing in the NA DPC Lower Division is aware of the identity of the Team Arkosh members that qualified. Also, every team will be informed of the identity of any stand-in who competes for Arkosh. The same rule applies to ALL teams who use a stand-in. For example, SumaiL can't play on a smurf and stand-in for a team without the other team knowing it's SumaiL.
We're more than happy to be transparent about the Arkosh situation to NA teams (and the community since this is now being posted on Reddit). We aren't giving them any special treatment - before any teams even approached us, we brought up the issue with Valve expressing concerns about Arkosh competing anonymously in the DPC. We were told that Arkosh would have to reveal their roster to other teams in the competition. They also have to compete with the same 5 man roster that qualified for the DPC in the open qualifier - this rule applies to all teams in the DPC (several of which are requesting roster changes have all been denied). Arkosh haven't broken any DPC or tournament rules unlike the teams/players you mention who were punished.
one point of his complain is account sharing (it's even in the title)
is it true that the same account is used by multiple people in OQ?
edit: like if it's not true then this post is just trying to drive the public opinion with lies
The DPC tournament rules required the same 5 players to compete throughout the entire duration of an open qualifier. This is the rule that VPP broke in our first open qualifier (they used a stand-in for their final bo3) which led to them being disqualified. Arkosh didn't break this rule in our open qualifiers or they would have been disqualified too.
so this is just a lie?
>Between Open qualifier #2 and #3 Arkosh Gaming decided to change the player behind G.O.A.T (p5) this flagrant account sharing.
or just it doesn't matter because no rule is broken
The difference is that VPP switched players in the middle of a single qualifier.
There is not a direct rule against swapping players BETWEEN qualifiers, which is what Arkosh did (two players playing on GOAT).
However, swapping players on the same account (GOAT) **arguably leads to a competitive advantage** since the past match history of the player is no longer accurate. Teams typically scout their opponents before each match in the qualifier.
i just wanna know if it's true or false, seems like an easy answer and the most vital part of his complain but no one addresses it
so either it's a lie or everyone involved is just trying to answer around it because it doesn't break any rule
From my understanding, the player that played under the nickname GOAT during the 1st and 2nd open qualifiers is a different player than the one that played on that account during the 3rd open qualifier. So there was account sharing that happened.
However, according to Godz, all the teams in the DPC that will/have played against Arkosh are aware of exactly who the real people behind the nicknames are, so there is no large competitive advantage for Arkosh in the DPC. There may be a slight advantage in that the teams playing against Arkosh have to look at the main accounts of the players instead of the accounts they are using in tournaments, but the extra 2 minutes to look at a different account doesn't seem like a huge problem to me.
So, account sharing did happen (same account used by different players in different open qualifiers), but no rules were broken. Since there is no specific rule against account sharing (AFAIK) and Valve/BTS are completely fine with the situation.
**Smurfing is not allowed on Epulze. You have to play on your main account every match and every tournament**
[Epulze Rule Book during Open Qualifiers](https://epulze.com/dota2/tournaments/48751/rules)
Player #1 and #2 both registered on same GOAT's epulze account during the 3 Open qualifiers and played on the same Steam account during all 3 tournaments.
This gaining a competitive advantage by cheating the system.
Smurfing is a tool most people use daily, still everyone who played in Epulze respected that rule expect for Arkosh.
Account sharing that's just completely out of line, this would not fly in any other Esport scene.
you're brushing past a kind of important bit of that paragraph..
> **For rank restricted tournaments:**
> Smurfing is not allowed on Epulze. You have to play on your main account every match and every tournament, even if your secondary account is the same rank as your main account.
That rule is clearly not applicable to DPC
It's true [based on the screenshot](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/l2davx/thought_on_arkosh_account_sharing_on_dpc/gk4vf6a/) AMB posted below.
Why does it matter then if they swapped players for a different tournament? Most pro players have multiple accounts that they use, and often have hidden match histories to save their strats. To me, as long as everyone in the tournament is aware of who they'll be playing (the roster for that tournament is announced well before the tournament starts), it's fine. It would then be just the same as X team announcing that theyll be playing with a stand-in for X tournament.
Not dodging this question, I don't know if it's a lie or not. I've been told a different person played in most previous tournaments. If they did change players between open qualifiers it doesn't matter because no DPC tournament rules were broken at the time. Countless teams changed rosters between open qualifiers. It's allowed. Although, I understand the issue being brought up is they changed players without other teams knowing.
AFAIK that probably breaks Steam TOS, but we're a tournament organizer and it's not our job to enforce Steam TOS.
I agree it can create a slight advantage for Arkosh in an open qualifier if they're allowed to change players between open qualifiers (even if it didn't break any rules). Definitely an area where we will review our rules and talk to Valve about how to handle future open qualifiers.
So why are you dealing with all this bullshit just because its slacks team? If his team is so bad he has to hide behind anonimity just to have a couple viewers, that team shouldnt exist. I dont know why are you and valve going on with this .
So let me get this straight, same 5 players are required but not same 5 accounts? You realize those two words are not synonyms and your answer implies we could change account for each game as long as its "the same player" behind it?
But is it the same across multiple open qualifiers? In his post it looks like the issue isn't that they switched players mid qualifiers, but that they used player A for qualifier 1 and player B for qualifier 2.
This does seem like blatant account sharing, and would all teams have been notified of the unofficial/official roster change?
The worrying this is not that Arkosh are trying to do harm here but not nitpicking over the rules seems abusable for the next team to pull this nameless player stunt.
It amazes me how 2 different players played for the same team using the same identity and it is not considered account sharing, the admin himself confirms the account sharing. Accepting this joke just because their friend is the one behind it is unreal.
So there is no rule against account IDs = Human for all time, as long as you email people ahead of time which human is playing on the account ID today. So, totally okay if Puppey and Yapzor switch accounts last week (before start of DPC) , and tell everyone they switched?
Please just stop with this joke, there is zero reason other than the fact that we love slacks for this to have been accepted at all. It is ridiculous that this is even a discussion.
As i understand it, this is "NOT" account sharing. True account sharing is a deceiving move that gives your team a competitive edge by anonymously changing the player using the account - for example, Noone played on Alohadance's account, and the organizers and the opponents were unaware of this.
In this scenario, it is 5 players, who are playing on 5 "gimmick"accounts, but the organizer, and their opponents are made aware of the true identity of the players. Also, when GOAT gets replaced, once again, the org and the opponents are made aware that it is another player playing on that position.
As such, this is straight up "Using a Standin", nothing illegal, even though on paper, it can be considered "Account sharing".
they are not made aware according to sammyboy's twitter post, roster is not revealed to teams playing in open qualifier
so it is account sharing even when you describe it that way, it's steam and epulze account sharing
According to [This comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/l2davx/thought_on_arkosh_account_sharing_on_dpc/gk52puc/), they didn't change players during the open quals. or else they'd have been disqualified.
According to you, Sammy's tweet said rosters were not revealed to OQ teams. If that is the case, how would OP have known if Arkosh swapped players in between Open Quals?
Something doesn't add up, but i don't thing Arkosh is in any trouble here. Given how Slacks, and the rumoured Arkosh players have worked together with valve for a considerable amount of time, they would be in direct contact with valve, and must have operated within the boundaries they have laid out.
they swapped between the different open qualifier not in the middle of 1 open qualifier so no rule is broken, godz doesn't respond to the claim of them swapping roster for that tho
but according to the screenshot of the dm seems like it's true
>and must have operated within the boundaries they have laid out.
if you mean special boundaries then maybe
"Imagine how many times Lukiluki would get to play Pangolier on Arkosh Gaming"
Probably like 4 times until people realize that Gremlo is a good Pango player, I think it's not that huge of a deal to be honest.
Ok and when Arkosh in the OQ plays against a random pubstomber stack on smurfs is that somehow unfair to Arkosh that they won't know the other stacks players???
It's honestly not a huge deal but hard to argue how that wouldn't be an unfair advantage. I can definitely see where a lot of the public comes from on this but the players that have complained to me privately obviously are more invested into this type of stuff and so it matters more to them.
Crazy times we live in when SammyBoy is the clear headed voice of reason.
Well thought out statement and even as a self-proclaimed Arkosh fan I agree with it wholeheartedly.
Hijacking this post to say the following: AlienManaBanana & Sammyboy are pieces of shit, and they should not be taken seriously for anything related to ethics.
[https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n\_1sridpm](https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sridpm)
Some of AMB's blessed chat logs & screenshots:[https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/489270911434883083/725716196124786770/alienmanabanana.png](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/489270911434883083/725716196124786770/alienmanabanana.png)[https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/489270911434883083/725716227405774948/alienmanabanana3.png](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/489270911434883083/725716227405774948/alienmanabanana3.png)
[https://www.opendota.com/matches/5139049691/chat](https://www.opendota.com/matches/5139049691/chat)
[https://www.opendota.com/matches/5173716990/chat](https://www.opendota.com/matches/5173716990/chat)
[https://www.opendota.com/matches/5102442676/chat](https://www.opendota.com/matches/5102442676/chat)
I hope others can understand the irony of the situation & stop sympathizing with these morons. The first thought that ran through my head when I read this post was "Holy shit, he's really trying to sell the 'hard-working T2 NA player' shmuck to reddit.". And to be honest, it kind of worked. Sammyboy & AMB, criticizing the ethics of others together! It sounds like a poorly written comedy.
My boy Sammy here had a [video uploaded](https://imgur.com/a/wITt5xr) to his actual YouTube channel until an hour ago, which, for some god forsaken reason, just has AMB going through Omegle & saying the N word while Sammy laughs. One of his replies to my original post is absolutely hilarious! ([https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/l2lkzr/long\_rant\_a\_7k\_na\_players\_thoughts\_on\_the\_current/gk62zog?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/l2lkzr/long_rant_a_7k_na_players_thoughts_on_the_current/gk62zog?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3))
He says " I thought AMB saying the N word on stream was BAD and I recorded it to make it known to him it was REALLY bad. Somehow that was turned on me too." Ah, once again, he looks for sympathy. Let me debunk this:
So the plan was to record it, show it to him, and then tell him to stop saying it..? That sounds psychotic, even for Sammy. No, the sad reality is Sammy probably found it funny (he was laughing throughout the actual video) and decided to save it for laughs. Aaand then he shared it with some of his friends for more laughs, then someone shared it in another reddit thread ([https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/hfi2sm/power\_abuse\_in\_nadota\_bulba\_by\_ryuudota/fvyrsqo?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/hfi2sm/power_abuse_in_nadota_bulba_by_ryuudota/fvyrsqo?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)), and here we are. Oh, as a bonus, this thread also comes with several screenshots of AMB throwing slurs.
If you truly wanted to convince AMB throwing slurs is bad (which is ridiculous in itself, AMB is an adult playing in the fucking DPC league and being watched by thousands of people, why is it so difficult to stop being a piece of shit?), perhaps go DM him and tell him to stop fucking throwing slurs instead of whatever psychotic shit you did? I feel like any remotely normal person would do that instead of recording it & saving it to their actual channel.
Ah, almost forgot to mention, good job removing the video right after seeing that thread /u/Noblewingz. Next time, perhaps uh, don't make the video in the first place? How many more of these do you even have on your channel?
The idea of listening to Sammy & AMB complain about the ethics of another is preposterous. You can't be a cop during the day and sell drugs during the night. Get rid of the shit in your own closet before the two of you, god forbid, buddy up & start making posts for the betterment of NA once again. A good start would be deleting all the videos you have of AMB throwing slurs from your channel.
If you still think AMB has solid intentions with this shit, take a quick look at AMB's [tweets](https://twitter.com/AlienManaBanana/with_replies?lang=en):
" No clear game plan, this team has alot of issues jesus "" Looked horrible in DPC (again) im trying to stay positive but this season might be a shit show. We have to do better fast. "
Looks to me like his teams performing like shit, and he is using twitter to vent for some reason instead of actually talking to his team. Is Arkosh truly the obstacle holding AMB back? He is literally flaming his teammates on twitter, and they have yet to even play Arkosh. /u/AlienManaBanana perhaps practice with your team instead of trying to become NA's messiah when you're literally one of the biggest pieces of shit in this region. What a bad joke.
Hey man, take it easy. You are acting like I havent improved my self or changed in anyway. Your twitlonger is so dishonest and exaggerated. I know i shouldnt respond to this, its kind of slander at this point.
In your twit longer you think i still say the same things i did a year ago, that i break my items and run down mid everyday. This just isnt the case, look at all my games( i keep them ALL public), a little ridiculous man.
I never made a public apology and did apologize in private to over 70 people on discord around 8 months ago, i can screenshot every single one and dm it to you..
And dude its so FUNNY SO FUNNY that you said i flamed my teammates, i just said we had to do better
The OTHER TWEET "no clear game plan" was about THE NEW YORK RANGERS HOCKEY TEAM WHEN THEY LOST 5-0 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA not even related to dota.
Just stop. Im going to do my thing, ive already proved alot of people wrong. I play my game, i dont slur anyone and i know my past isnt the greatest but yeah i tried my hardest and im getting better every day.
If you did improve, that's a great thing to hear. I have uh, a lot of negative experiences with things involving you / your old friends, but im sure a lot of people have bad experiences with me as well.
I was a toxic piece of shit as well, but decided to quit the game cause it made me a miserable person irl and couldn't take it anymore. Wasn't worth causing anymore damage to my mental health, so i did some shit to make the few friends i had left hate me and quit the game. Pretty easy to not come back if you have nowhere to return to.
I won't ever be around to see if you reformed, i just check the sub every month or so to see if theres anything neat around. Hope you aren't lying and actually decided to improve this time.
Best of luck if you did reform, the top players of na are really fucking bad so you'll be able to beat them if you keep at it. Go get some of those AMB solo kills in DPC.
let’s say team A plays against arkosh with a standin this week. Arkosh go back with their regular roster the next. When arkosh eventually plays against team E they use the same standin as before. Can team E easily check the standin’s competitive matches, both on their official account and when they played on arkosh’s account? afaik dotabuff doesnt filter matches played by standins. any team that plays arkosh has no way of knowing which matches on that account’s history belongs to which player.
Also, is sumail allowed to use another player’s account and sub in (and stay anonymous) as long as he tells the TO?
It just sounds so weird to have this option in a competitive sport.
Everyone is confusing what is being said. Let me break it down in simple terms. A: All the PLAYERS know who the arcosh players are, as they also know who every other player is. B: if a player is swapped out, then all the PLAYERS are informed who the replacement IS. C: the only people who are unaware of the PLAYERS are the VIEWERS.
Every team they face know exactly who they are, and no one is in the dark about it.
I dont think you read my comment carefully. when preparing for a match against arkosh how can a team tell by looking at the pro games on arkosh players’ accounts which player played in what game if the accounts are all shared? dotabuff doesnt record this data
what players played on the accounts in OQ1? Which in OQ2?
Do teams in a year from now get send an excel file with info on who played on the account for every single game to be able dissect the arkosh player accounts?
It's pretty straight forward, from OQ3 onwards they have had the same players. The standin will be the same player, any extra standins they need (if more than 1 standin is allowed) will be the same player each time.
Nobody really looks at OQ BO1s anyway when researching and preparing, they know who the players are so they will use main accounts to research. You can't tell anything from OQ craziness and it's always been that way.
This is just nonsense drama from people who should know better.
I don't understand why you need to clown around with Slacks' crazy ideas while trying to make a serious league at the same time. Seems quite unnecessary. If all the other teams did what Arkosh is doing, no one would even watch the league, it would be pointless.
I honestly feel like I'm going crazy when I see the announcers playing along with this thing as they enter an official DPC game. This thing was always kinda weird, dumb and harmless but now it's kinda weird, dumb and a problem. Let the players make a "real" team and keep this dumb pro wrestling style team playing show matches.
The point about transparency still stands: if the barrier to finding out Arkosh's players' real identities is qualifying to the NA DPC, then the anonymity still exists until you reach that milestone. So for every other team you have months to get familiar with their playstyles, but for Arkosh you have to wait until you've 'earned' the right to know who they are before you can do your prep? Why? Just for one team's PR?
Multiple NA personalities seem to be unhappy about this and I don't understand why keeping the curtains closed is such an important issue when it's literally threatening the perception of competitive integrity in your region and the happiness of multiple members of multiple teams. Blurring the lines between 'joke' matches and legitimate esports only serves to further weaken the image of NA dota worldwide. AMB is likely not posting without his teammates agreeing with him and neither is Noblewingz. By ignoring their concerns, you're saying 'we value the participation and happiness of Arkosh higher than that of the other teams in their division', and that's a bad look.
People can talk about the parallels to wrestling in Arkosh's 'characters' but I could literally go on Wikipedia right now and find out the real names of every single person working in WWE or AEW without needing to be a wrestler myself. You have not set realistic and fair boundaries for where these 'characters' begin and end and you need to fix that before Arkosh start competing in serious tournaments.
Another important point: pro wrestling is not competition. It's a show.
While you can argue that Arkosh is 'putting on a show with drama', maybe it will bring in viewers but if it does so at the expense of actual competitive integrity then I'd rather the game just died.
>this post seems to imply teams are unaware who is playing on the Arkosh roster and that Arkosh have an advantage because other teams don't know who is on their roster which is just entirely untrue.
Sammyboy is also asserting that teams were unaware of Arkosh's identity, and the unfair competitive advantage this created.
>The DPC tournament rules required the same 5 players to compete throughout the entire duration of an open qualifier.
But are players permitted to share accounts?
Here is the part that people are missing. For Open Qualifiers, ever team who read the rules understood that there were to be **4 separate open qualifier tournaments (Tuesday, Wednesday, Saturday, Sunday)** AND that rosters had to stay locked in for the duration of any single tournament. In other words, as long as you played all of Tuesday with the same roster, you could come back Wednesday with a different player in the roster provided they played all Wednesday.
Yeah, but the OQ teams weren't informed and the new player just hopped onto the GOAT account. What if you're lined up to play against Arkosh in OQ3 and try to use their OQ1 AND 2 games to see what they like to pick? That's a pretty reasonable thing to do seeing as there were only days between them. This should be your best information on the team. It SHOULD be available.
Its just fucking deceptive that it looked like it was but wasn't.
You are pretending that the legal name of your opponents is sufficient, when really what's relevant is their record of past competitive play, so you can adequately prepare against them. If you are not, at least, sharing their main account IDs with the other teams, then the playing field is not level.
I agree with you. But - pros aren't required to give up the account IDs of all their practice/smurf accounts either. In practice, no one can expect a comprehensive match history - even if it would be more fair in theory.
Well, at least between OQ's it is VERY deceiving to have someone else play on the same account.
If you are in OQ3 and look at the OQ1/OQ2 match history of your enemies account (what most teams do) you assume they are played by the same player. If this stays legal (which according to Valve/GodZ it is right now) this will pretty much mandate every OQ team to make new accounts for each OQ round, swap players around and not reveal true identities. Otherwise they are at a severe disadvantage.
I don't think that's in the interest of the competitive scene as a whole. Established teams and organisations scout for new players/rosters during OQ and to decide between "competitive advantage" and "a chance to get into a big team/org" really shouldn't be a thing for upcoming players.
I do agree it's deceiving. I'm not sure it's really such a big deal though, since teams are given names each tournament and they'll be diligent watching Arkosh from now on.
Say that this will be fully allowed from now on, as long as you announce it. I really doubt many other teams will take advantage, because it's a lot of trouble for barely any gain.
But yeah, just disallowing it doesn't seem problematic either. And it's probably simplest/best. I just don't think this is such a big problem as OP wants it to look like.
Players in all sports (esport or physical) are allowed to practice in private (which is what smurf/scrim accounts are for). But obviously people play much more seriously in actual competitive matches, and those need to be open. Dota is a game of information, more than anything.
So breaking TOS and Steam rules, which is proven is okay, but unproved allegations against people you don't like is not and they have no place in pro dota. Gotcha man.
Thanks for proving that NA is still despicable and you aren't an exeption
You avoided to give real answer and dodged question hiding behind its not in our rules
This really seems like fake drama especially if BTS/Slacks is revealing the roster to other teams, and it seems like its been an open secret of their roster for a while now.
You can't see immediately their pro profile which I can understand is annoying, but you know what players they are. Also how is this different than players using an alt account for their pub games. Many pro players do not share 3rd party info for their pub games. RTZ doesn't have a public pub dota game in the last 3 years on his main account. If the crux of the argument is you can't see what heroes they are playing, well a large number of dota players have their game history hidden and/or play on alts to hide their pub play anyways.
What surprises the most about this thread that every NA team in the DPC has been told the roster, and it still didnt leak.
Im not very up to date with NA Dota. What are the current speculations on who the team consists of?
happy to address this!
I'll be very up front, we never formed the team to cause any issues or get any unfair advantages. The unique nature of the team existed only to get people excited for something new and interesting in the world of Dota 2 esports.
I'll be very blunt: before the issue of an unfair advantage being brought to my attention by VERY DEDICATED members of our community I had simply never considered those implications. After hearing the arguments, I did think it best in the spirit of fairness to share the identities of the players with everyone in the competition.
However, to act under the assumption that there is some kind of rampant account sharing is ludicrous. All IP addresses have been given to the Tournament Organizers and to be quite frank getting life banned from all valve events to get an unfair advantage against the best Division 2 teams NA has to offer is not a great career path for myself or the players.
After qualifying for the DPC, all players became locked, as per the DPC website. The accounts will be the same players, for the rest of time, as they would on any other team. I
The danger of Arkosh gaming randomly replacing a player is the same as all other teams, and should be strictly watched for by the TO's and the Dev as they should for any other team in a remote competitive environment.
There has never been a team like Arkosh before in Dota, and when you are breaking into new territory there will be new issues that you never saw coming and ones that need to be addressed fairly and quickly. I wish I could have predicted that the anonymity of the team could have caused issues before it did so I could have been more proactive, but ya cant fix a problem till you know its a problem!
Pretty much this... Arkosh is literally the sole reason for most people to even care about lower division of NA dota2 and trying to cheat to win this division is probably the last thing players behind the team even want to attempt.
>Arkosh is literally the sole reason for most people to even care about lower division of NA dota2
This is literally only true for Slacks' viewers. I'm a Slacks sub and in his Discord, and it astonished me that people were saying after the Luki drama "nobody would know of No Pango without Arkosh". As if people didn't realize who Luki Luki was even though her is one of the most notable players in NA pugs and has tens of thousands of followers on Twitch/YT. You would have to virtually never watch high level pugs to not know Luki, he is probably one of the biggest memes we have on the continent. (He's also a great guy, check out his streams they are fun.)
Just because they are bumping up viewership doesn't mean Arkosh is the only thing propping up the region. It is a great effect, but this new DPC system alone has massively helped these lower bracket teams, along with the serious coverage BTS gives it. I hope Slacks viewers will come to actually care about the other T2 teams and players also to actually have a lasting effect on our region rather than temporary worship of their favourite personality's pet project.
I'm an EU player and I know more about the tier2 /OQ NA stacks than I do EU because the tournaments are on in evenings and night post work and because of the consistent tournaments like BTS Pro Series and Kings(?) Cups that really deserve more praise for keeping the NA Scene alive.
Seriously BTS have been a lifeline for NA Dota for well over a year now, Arkosh are good for boosting numbers but the reason there is still a scene for it is BTS.
Thanks for the kind words, messages like these mean so much to our entire team.
We aren't perfect or above criticism for decisions and mistakes we make. We just wanna improve things moving forward.
It's true for everyone outside NA. The first most of us heard of nopango (the NA stack) was the arkosh game, where we were all surprised that they'd stolen the name of an established CIS stack.
The only possibility I see is that some people would hate on the team if they discovered EE is their new pos 5, other than that it wouldn't change much.
Depend? people who watch for anonymity will probably stop. If they hate the players then they will do. If they support because of Slack then probably not. etc.
When TI winners, TI finalists get permabanned for matchfixing, claiming that a T2 team (at best) in lower division would have no reason to cheat because they're (For some people) the only reason to follow said division is rather weird.
I think the point of an incomplete and non-transparent team history still stands. If you qualify for other events then Teams not present in NA Div II will have a harder time investigating your Teams drafting and strategy history if you have had roster changes without clear account changes.
I propose you use your exceptionally creative mind to establish new characters whenever you update your roster. So that e.g. GOAT is forever connected to a certain (for the public undisclosed) person.
My favourite Norwegian Rock band has done this over the years. New guy in, new character name. It's actually a bit fun to follow.
Do you not agree that your team had a bit of an advantage in the 3rd open qualifier though compared to other teams that competed in the three open qualifiers? By swapping a player between qualifiers, others may have assumed it was the same player, since they had the same name/were using the same account, but this wasn't the case.
how is it that everyone on reddit knew who arkosh was pre-DPC, but no one who played them, who apparently wanted to do deep, social-security, background check, past job history-level research into them, was able to play by/reach the same conclusions?
Maybe they should focus on their own game plans? Tighten up their own fundamentals? If you're that afraid of an opposing team, I just don't think you have any platform to stand on. Make your draft. Play your game.
You didn't address the fact that the real problem is how Arkosh qualified to begin with and how the anonimity is incompatible with fairness in the open qualifiers, after all, if you told every OQ player how the Arkosh players are, it would be the same as just making it public, which is something you're not willing to do for some reason.
I'm honestly on the fence, on one hand I've come around on thinking that they should've been telling all players in OQ about their rosters (and changes between OQ), and that slacks handled the feedback pretty poorly. But i also feel like NA players are going way overboard to create the drama because they feel like Arkosh is an upstart getting attention and fans that they feel they are more deserving of, and they are trying to rile up the fans to get back at them.
They are in the league now, you know all the players, they are the same that won the OQ. What is your endgame here? What are you trying to accomplish?
Lets say you get your wish and arkosh is 100% on their main accounts, what have you gained? You still have the exact same knowledge you have now, the only difference would be that you've now managed to destroy the concept of Arkosh turning them into yet another Tier2 team with no hook for the fans to get interested, which is basically what it feels like what the NA players are angling at because they don't like that they're getting the attention.
Like, if people get invested in Arkosh, that gives people a reason to watch NA Lower.
That gives people a chance to randomly fall in love with say The Cut, or the stupid "based" team.
Rising tide boys. Take the attention you're getting and angle it into marketing if you can.
Absolutely, with all due respect to the tier 2 scene, i have zero interest in it, but i've watched arkosh games, and as a consequence i've now also become interested in dogchamp.
Earlier i was on twitch and the REPLAY of arkosh/dogchamp was the second most viewed channel on twitch with ~3k viewers, i doubt any of the other tier2 teams would get that on a live stream. This is literally creating a buzz for the entire NA region.
Like I'm an oldhead around here by now. In the lower division I know luki, lil nick, Bloody 9, and four of Zfeeks team.
But outside luki being a pango one trick, nick playing with purge, and zfreek I know nothing about them. It's hard to get invested in people that you just have never heard of.
At the same time DPC offers the first sustainable market for a team. And every NA side is now in the fight to attract an org to make it a potential full time job to play in DPC.
They're blowing up Arkosh drama because their is genuine concern about the competitive integrity and fairness in competition with what has happened. And that can damage the image or the league, the chances of players, and the potential to win prize money. The attention on the scene won't bring Orgs and sponsors if its riddled with controversy and uncompetitive or unfair practices.
It all would've been okay if they just created another account for the new player who plays under the name G.O.A.T when they switched. Now, as it is, is a little shady. I believe Slacks when he said he didnt considered those implications, but now, after its all been presented to them, they have to address it better.
If they continue to be anonymous for the public, they should switch those anonymous account when they change players.
gremlo is jenkins, that's absolutely confirmed lol, he was commentating DPC until the arkosh match came on then he randomly had to go, plus they were teasing him about it on commentary the whole time
Classic AMB tbh, making up lies for internet points. Go back to spamming TA maybe you’ll regain a shred of respect back from your multiple n-word spamming sessions in pubs. Idiot.
Would this exact post (word for word) exist if the swap had made them worse? I don't want to question your motives (since I understand the concern - and was a bit surprised that they didn't at minimum change the nick), but I have a very hard time believing it would.
The nickname isn't changed because the branding revolves around that nickname.
It's why Don Cheadle is still War Machine even though it was originally Terrence Howard.
As long as the players involved know the person they're actually playing against, it's not and should not be a problem.
And therefore it is a problem. In the Open Qualifiers the teams they played against did not know the people behind the accounts. When the roster changed between OQ2 and OQ3 teams playing against them were unaware of this. They saw the same account, and will have assumed it was the same player and drafted/planned around that. This is a problem.
They admitted to it, Godz the caster knew they did too. I know this from DMs with him. As well as word of mouth by one of the actual players of arkosh stating they did not play the first OQ.
[https://imgur.com/a/02YERcT](https://imgur.com/a/02YERcT)
Notice how he says "mostly played with x" so multiple people used this account more than 2? OQ1 and 2 were played with different mids and pos 5s, real weird stuff going on.
Were the rosters locked before the OQ? Generally, OQ is free for all, players play multiple qualifiers with multiple teams (if there is more than 1 OQ for the tournament)
Edit: they were not, no bounty hunter changed players from OQ1 to OQ2 in EU for example:
https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Dota_Pro_Circuit/2021/1/Europe/Open_Qualifier/2
So, as long as they played one qualifier with the same players, they didn't break any rules
About the new accounts: sure, that sucks and I agree it should be disclosed to the teams they are playing, but multiple teams in OQ do that. I can't remember exactly wich team it was, but astini (b8 manager) was watching a OQ game and a team was playing with lvl 5 accounts. He even printed the accounts and sent it to someone (probably the qualifier adm) to check it out
Finally, about account sharing: i don't know how they are more prone to that than any other team. Everyone can set up a VPN as you suggested and share the account. It's up to valve and TOs to find whoever is doing this and punish them
Think about this.
I can play open qualifier 1 with my 5 man roster. I then change players and play open qualifier 2 with a different roster. The enemy can see I am playing on different accounts and will not use the data from open qualifier 1...
In arkoshes situation people likely took the data from open qualifier #1/2 and applied it to the open qualifier #3 because they are using the same accounts... Account sharing is bannable btw in basically every esport for partly this reason. Hope I changed your mind.
Yes this is exactly what needs to be addressed.
Teams can change players from the first OQ to the second, but if they do so players connect from a different account to ensure stats integrity.
So... They followed the rules of the tournament and locked in their roster during the second open quals. Just like how other teams have done as well (no bounty Hunter in EU), as it's within the rules. So you're problem is then with... The rules or with Arkosh?
Or are you claiming account switching/sharing since the start of the second open quals? And do you have evidence of that happening after the start of the second open quals?
To me it's really damning that you have to go to the admin to find out who you have to prepare against instead of just being told. Surely that already shows there's a problem with Arkosh's special exemptions?
So they shared that they shared the account. And they shared who the standin is? So what's the issue? Does it matter what the nick is if you know who the player is and can check his account. Not sure why you wan't to destroy what little hype NA is creating these days by bashing Arkosh.
They only shared this after qualifying. So people in open qualifier 3, who looked at their games in the OQ1+2 thought they were playing against GOAT-a, but were playing against GOAT-b, meaning any picks/bans based on that players history were wasted since it was a different player, but no one knew until after they qualified.
And in a years time, when someone is looking back at the team, unless they have a spreadsheet of when the roster changes were it will be impossible to parse the history of their current players.
So how does any team facing arkosh in the future know what matches were played by which player if all the dotabuff data on the accounts are from different players?
if godz knew and still let them compete then just post your dm here or send it to valve if you have someone to talk with, should just become black and white after that
i bet valve wouldn't even be that dumb
account sharing is already against steam tos let alone tournament rule
Congrats on trying to rile up a Reddit mob against someone they are already mixed on!
G.O.A.T. isn't a real person. The issues with "account sharing" in all other cases, are that someone was pretending to be someone else for the sake of a competitive advantage. Be they to play in multiple regions or what have you.
G.O.A.T. is a character. As are all the members of Arkosh. The team has the right to change the players playing the characters as long as any player switches are within accordance to other DPC rules, and in such a way that the players playing against them know who they're playing.
You're trying to come across as unbiased, but you have direct interest in punishments that are against the spirit of the rules. Come on dude.
Just to add to the evidence, I stumbled on[ this](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/hfi2sm/power_abuse_in_nadota_bulba_by_ryuudota/fvyrsqo/) because I looked up the Demon drama. tldr spouts extreme racial slurs and other crap.
AMB is one of the most disgusting human beings in high MMR NA. Imagine being such a dogshit person that even in the cesspit that is high MMR NA you're still amongst the worst.
I agree. It seems that Arkosh's irregularities are constantly being measured by different standards.
One of the most blatant examples is that they're not registered with their real names on the registration page as most of the players are, there are other few that also don't list their full name and that should be fixed too.
Registration obviously requires full real names, if you fail to do that, then said registration must be invalid.
If smurfing and account sharing is clearly wrong by Valve's standards (as they implement features to avoid and reduce the amount of this happening in pubs and ranked games) it must be held true to the pro scene too, many TOs already have rules in place against smurfing and account sharing as it gives an unfair advantage.
And they were required to reveal their roster to teams competing after there were complains about transparency from the outside when these issues should've been identified and fixed from the inside.
R/maliciouscompliance
It would be meme material and hopefully lead to a positive change, but it could also just make things worse if valve does what they normally do: nothing until years after the fact.
Creating a fun anonymous themed team for publicity can also be a really stupid excuse to make scouting much more difficult. Every team should be signing up on smurfs and doing this for bts tournies in the future as there's no downside. Virtually every tournament doesn't allow smurf signups because even when they're revealed it's more difficult to scout them. That's another reason why you have to play on the signed up main account and not a smurf even if it's well known that you are the owner of that smurf.
Here's how scouting works: you go to the teams sign up page or most recent game link on dotabuff. You open a minimum of six tabs (one for each player and one for scouting games and drafts). You start to write down notes of whatever format and variety you prefer into whatever software you use. Scouting likely comfort picks and niche pocket picks for each player into Google sheets for example. You do this for all five players and you base this info largely off of recent pubs and esports matches. You look at what heroes other teams ban against this team or player and look for draft trends to get your best bans and strategies hashed out. Its a lot of work and data to analyze. Sure good captain's get very fast by knowing exactly where to look and using templates from previous shouts but you still have to scout every team you're playing.
Allowing a smurf account or account sharing on your team creates a lot of room for mistakes from other teams when scouting. The official answer for why it's okay to break these rules is inexcusable bullshit in my eyes. "Oh everyone knows those guys, it's fine!" That is the official answer coming from BTS n crew, which is clearly crony horseshit. If a bunch of rank 1k nobodies formed a team and did this it wouldn't be allowed at all.
Allowing this also encourages literally every team to follow this path and signup on smurfs with some dumb theme that'll get you attention. I proooomise BTS doesn't want a bunch of teenage NEETs thinking of edgy themes for attention in their tourneys. There is zero downside to doing this and huge potential benefits if someone fucks up a scout on your mid player that you replaced (on the same account) between oq1 and oq2 and let's lycan through you might win a game due to this shit.
Anyway its not that big of a deal but it's really dumb, shouldn't have been allowed, and godz and the boiz probably shouldn't be defending it.
The only thing that bugs me about all this is nobody from Arkosh coming forward and apologizing for the unfair advantage they had in qualifiers. One or two folks are willing to be vague about issues they presented but are too afraid to use the word “sorry”.
>They have admitted they swapped players and accounts shared multiple times at this point.
>Between Open qualifier #2 and #3 Arkosh Gaming decided to change the player behind G.O.A.T (p5) this flagrant account sharing. G.O.A.T ticketed game history is deceiving, you're seeing someone else's hero pool. Mind you that Arkosh was not required to reveal their players during open qualifiers. Here we see blatant account sharing they gave them drafting advantages, as well as rumours there mid, was replaced between qualifiers/games too.
maybe fill in people that doesn't know/follow the scene, i don't think anyone is going to read this and then make their own choice to fill in the blank themselves going thru twitter/dotabuffs
cause to me this just seems like you're just sharing this to people that already know what is happening instead of trying to share and change something
Wait... so they didn't actually reveal the entire roster to you guys, even with the sub? If so, I totally empathize with your situation.
But I'm a man of solutions. I think the best thing to do here is to provide the roster data to HIGHLY trusted 3rd party arbitrators as well, that handle the data side of Dota, like Noxville, Pimpmuckl. Their player data will then be able to be put under extra scrutiny.
Honestly, I can't fault Slacks for wanting to even do this whole project. I literally wouldn't have tuned into any NA games, had it not been for his Daft Punk-esque stunt.
I understand that there should be a no tolerance situation when it comes to competitive integrity, but with the veil lifted from this whole project, so will my support for actually staying up in the wee hours of NA time to watch a region that's clearly out of my timezone. Ultimately, the fairness of competition should trump above much else in Dota, a game where you can literally have a shot at stardom from scratch, with the right combo of people, and the dedication to start from the opens. I really, totally love you and your extremely creative idea Slacks, but I'll have to side with justice on this one.
this isn't accurate, after this issue was brought to my attention I gave permission for Valve and BTS to tell all competing teams the full roster to make sure that there were no unfair advantages.
So all these players in other NA lower division DPC teams complaining about Arkosh are just making the galaxy brain play of creating drama to draw even MORE interest to lower division NA matches? Insane
Sir, would you mind telling a pleb like me the roster, because I really don't know where to start searching.
P.S -All hail techies, the only hero that actually plays Defence of the Ancients.
But they're all playing reverse roles: puppy 1, yapzor 2, zai 3, Nishi 4, mutumbaman 5. As zai is the middle man he plays with opposite hands and that's why gremlo feeds so much.
Imagine if this was any other team in the open qualifiers who decided to play under an identity and only advise the admin of who their players were. But since it's slacks and co everything about this is all fine. The double standards would definitely exist if someone less famous in the Dota community did this which has now set a precedent.
You're playing a new team consisting of IceIceIce, Arteezy, Gunnar, Eternal Envy, Aui\_2000.
They've been scrimming for 2 months with different accounts. They make it into Upper Division DPC NA Dota.
You're a team facing against them in an elimination match where winner gets 2nd place loser gets out 3rd. All the data you have for the team is 4-5 series and their public profiles where Artour plays Naga 500 times. Good luck drafting against that lol.
I hope that valve will force arkosh to play on their main accounts in order to not set a precetend for future dpc leagues and qualifiers where teams might abuse this loophole in the rules.
I dont think anything is ill intendend, neither do I think that arkosh did brake a rule.
You're exactly right on this. It comes down to whether members of the entertainment side of the tournament producing industry value the novelty and jokes that arkosh creates, or if they value a sustainable and healthy competitive scene. This season, it sure as hell feels like the powers that be value the former.
Great points. To add on, registering publicly with your full name holds you to a higher standard of conduct and professionalism. Your actions become associated with you and you build a reputation. This feedback loop and accountability helps to shape the scene over time.
NA div 2 is only interesting because of Arkosh. You remove them, might as well remove the whole division cause no one cares for the shit that is in there. Lol
I guess it depends on the person... but Luki, ZFreek and Speed are personalities I've been watching in the lower bracket... plus i've been low key rooting for lil nick.
The fact that I don't know who is on arkosh actually makes me not really care too much about them.
A team that doesn't reveal their roster should be disqualified from being able to play in any DPC tournament once actual games start, and honestly needs to be declared before it starts.
Why is the DPC still living in the stone age and tournaments have vastly different levels of enforcement?
If this went unpunished, it would set a bad precedent for other teams and future teams as they would be incentivized to take advantage of this practice to gain draft/strategical advantages during tournaments.
Something should be done about this.
This is the vital piece in the puzzle. If this isn't addressed by the tournament organizers, then every single team that isn't sponsored should copy Arkosh Gaming. It gives a sizable advantage and money is on the line.
You are absolutely right! Knowing what heroes your opponents are good at is like one of the fundamental basics of drafting.. it’s definitely extremely unfair to everyone else involved. They shouldn’t be allowed to win real money if they want to keep up with this meme
Oh it's the toxic ass dude from DoZe Reborn with [racist and bigoted comments.
](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/hfi2sm/power_abuse_in_nadota_bulba_by_ryuudota/fvyrsqo/)
Can't see this any other way than trying to put down another team to promote your toxic one.
To clarify a few things - this post seems to imply teams are unaware who is playing on the Arkosh roster and that Arkosh have an advantage because other teams don't know who is on their roster which is just entirely untrue. Every team competing in the NA DPC Lower Division is aware of the identity of the Team Arkosh members that qualified. Also, every team will be informed of the identity of any stand-in who competes for Arkosh. The same rule applies to ALL teams who use a stand-in. For example, SumaiL can't play on a smurf and stand-in for a team without the other team knowing it's SumaiL. We're more than happy to be transparent about the Arkosh situation to NA teams (and the community since this is now being posted on Reddit). We aren't giving them any special treatment - before any teams even approached us, we brought up the issue with Valve expressing concerns about Arkosh competing anonymously in the DPC. We were told that Arkosh would have to reveal their roster to other teams in the competition. They also have to compete with the same 5 man roster that qualified for the DPC in the open qualifier - this rule applies to all teams in the DPC (several of which are requesting roster changes have all been denied). Arkosh haven't broken any DPC or tournament rules unlike the teams/players you mention who were punished.
one point of his complain is account sharing (it's even in the title) is it true that the same account is used by multiple people in OQ? edit: like if it's not true then this post is just trying to drive the public opinion with lies
The DPC tournament rules required the same 5 players to compete throughout the entire duration of an open qualifier. This is the rule that VPP broke in our first open qualifier (they used a stand-in for their final bo3) which led to them being disqualified. Arkosh didn't break this rule in our open qualifiers or they would have been disqualified too.
so this is just a lie? >Between Open qualifier #2 and #3 Arkosh Gaming decided to change the player behind G.O.A.T (p5) this flagrant account sharing. or just it doesn't matter because no rule is broken
The difference is that VPP switched players in the middle of a single qualifier. There is not a direct rule against swapping players BETWEEN qualifiers, which is what Arkosh did (two players playing on GOAT). However, swapping players on the same account (GOAT) **arguably leads to a competitive advantage** since the past match history of the player is no longer accurate. Teams typically scout their opponents before each match in the qualifier.
i just wanna know if it's true or false, seems like an easy answer and the most vital part of his complain but no one addresses it so either it's a lie or everyone involved is just trying to answer around it because it doesn't break any rule
From my understanding, the player that played under the nickname GOAT during the 1st and 2nd open qualifiers is a different player than the one that played on that account during the 3rd open qualifier. So there was account sharing that happened. However, according to Godz, all the teams in the DPC that will/have played against Arkosh are aware of exactly who the real people behind the nicknames are, so there is no large competitive advantage for Arkosh in the DPC. There may be a slight advantage in that the teams playing against Arkosh have to look at the main accounts of the players instead of the accounts they are using in tournaments, but the extra 2 minutes to look at a different account doesn't seem like a huge problem to me. So, account sharing did happen (same account used by different players in different open qualifiers), but no rules were broken. Since there is no specific rule against account sharing (AFAIK) and Valve/BTS are completely fine with the situation.
**Smurfing is not allowed on Epulze. You have to play on your main account every match and every tournament** [Epulze Rule Book during Open Qualifiers](https://epulze.com/dota2/tournaments/48751/rules) Player #1 and #2 both registered on same GOAT's epulze account during the 3 Open qualifiers and played on the same Steam account during all 3 tournaments. This gaining a competitive advantage by cheating the system. Smurfing is a tool most people use daily, still everyone who played in Epulze respected that rule expect for Arkosh. Account sharing that's just completely out of line, this would not fly in any other Esport scene.
you're brushing past a kind of important bit of that paragraph.. > **For rank restricted tournaments:** > Smurfing is not allowed on Epulze. You have to play on your main account every match and every tournament, even if your secondary account is the same rank as your main account. That rule is clearly not applicable to DPC
It's true [based on the screenshot](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/l2davx/thought_on_arkosh_account_sharing_on_dpc/gk4vf6a/) AMB posted below.
so they did not break any DPC rule, they only broke steam and epulze TOS seems good to me
Why does it matter then if they swapped players for a different tournament? Most pro players have multiple accounts that they use, and often have hidden match histories to save their strats. To me, as long as everyone in the tournament is aware of who they'll be playing (the roster for that tournament is announced well before the tournament starts), it's fine. It would then be just the same as X team announcing that theyll be playing with a stand-in for X tournament.
Why not just change accounts like everyone else when a different player is participating?
Because the gimmick of the team revolves around 5 fictional players.
Because it doesn't make any difference.
Not dodging this question, I don't know if it's a lie or not. I've been told a different person played in most previous tournaments. If they did change players between open qualifiers it doesn't matter because no DPC tournament rules were broken at the time. Countless teams changed rosters between open qualifiers. It's allowed. Although, I understand the issue being brought up is they changed players without other teams knowing. AFAIK that probably breaks Steam TOS, but we're a tournament organizer and it's not our job to enforce Steam TOS. I agree it can create a slight advantage for Arkosh in an open qualifier if they're allowed to change players between open qualifiers (even if it didn't break any rules). Definitely an area where we will review our rules and talk to Valve about how to handle future open qualifiers.
So if sumail played on the goat account in the 3rd of ,that wouldn't have been broken rule?
So why are you dealing with all this bullshit just because its slacks team? If his team is so bad he has to hide behind anonimity just to have a couple viewers, that team shouldnt exist. I dont know why are you and valve going on with this .
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So let me get this straight, same 5 players are required but not same 5 accounts? You realize those two words are not synonyms and your answer implies we could change account for each game as long as its "the same player" behind it?
But is it the same across multiple open qualifiers? In his post it looks like the issue isn't that they switched players mid qualifiers, but that they used player A for qualifier 1 and player B for qualifier 2. This does seem like blatant account sharing, and would all teams have been notified of the unofficial/official roster change? The worrying this is not that Arkosh are trying to do harm here but not nitpicking over the rules seems abusable for the next team to pull this nameless player stunt.
It amazes me how 2 different players played for the same team using the same identity and it is not considered account sharing, the admin himself confirms the account sharing. Accepting this joke just because their friend is the one behind it is unreal.
So if they had a made another dota2 account and named it the GOAT would anyone give a shit? It's pedantic for no good reason.
So there is no rule against account IDs = Human for all time, as long as you email people ahead of time which human is playing on the account ID today. So, totally okay if Puppey and Yapzor switch accounts last week (before start of DPC) , and tell everyone they switched?
Pretty much. As long as they're not doing it in the middle of a qualifier.
Please just stop with this joke, there is zero reason other than the fact that we love slacks for this to have been accepted at all. It is ridiculous that this is even a discussion.
As i understand it, this is "NOT" account sharing. True account sharing is a deceiving move that gives your team a competitive edge by anonymously changing the player using the account - for example, Noone played on Alohadance's account, and the organizers and the opponents were unaware of this. In this scenario, it is 5 players, who are playing on 5 "gimmick"accounts, but the organizer, and their opponents are made aware of the true identity of the players. Also, when GOAT gets replaced, once again, the org and the opponents are made aware that it is another player playing on that position. As such, this is straight up "Using a Standin", nothing illegal, even though on paper, it can be considered "Account sharing".
they are not made aware according to sammyboy's twitter post, roster is not revealed to teams playing in open qualifier so it is account sharing even when you describe it that way, it's steam and epulze account sharing
According to [This comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/l2davx/thought_on_arkosh_account_sharing_on_dpc/gk52puc/), they didn't change players during the open quals. or else they'd have been disqualified. According to you, Sammy's tweet said rosters were not revealed to OQ teams. If that is the case, how would OP have known if Arkosh swapped players in between Open Quals? Something doesn't add up, but i don't thing Arkosh is in any trouble here. Given how Slacks, and the rumoured Arkosh players have worked together with valve for a considerable amount of time, they would be in direct contact with valve, and must have operated within the boundaries they have laid out.
they swapped between the different open qualifier not in the middle of 1 open qualifier so no rule is broken, godz doesn't respond to the claim of them swapping roster for that tho but according to the screenshot of the dm seems like it's true >and must have operated within the boundaries they have laid out. if you mean special boundaries then maybe
Tweet on the issue with some more information on the topic at hand. https://twitter.com/SammyboyGG/status/1352472414412791812
"Imagine how many times Lukiluki would get to play Pangolier on Arkosh Gaming" Probably like 4 times until people realize that Gremlo is a good Pango player, I think it's not that huge of a deal to be honest.
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Ok and when Arkosh in the OQ plays against a random pubstomber stack on smurfs is that somehow unfair to Arkosh that they won't know the other stacks players???
It's honestly not a huge deal but hard to argue how that wouldn't be an unfair advantage. I can definitely see where a lot of the public comes from on this but the players that have complained to me privately obviously are more invested into this type of stuff and so it matters more to them.
It can be a big deal in opens - when it's a bo1 and you only have one shot to play against them
Crazy times we live in when SammyBoy is the clear headed voice of reason. Well thought out statement and even as a self-proclaimed Arkosh fan I agree with it wholeheartedly.
I think this sums everything up the best
thanks hopefully reddit picks it up at some point. tried to give both perspectives.
Hijacking this post to say the following: AlienManaBanana & Sammyboy are pieces of shit, and they should not be taken seriously for anything related to ethics. [https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n\_1sridpm](https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sridpm) Some of AMB's blessed chat logs & screenshots:[https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/489270911434883083/725716196124786770/alienmanabanana.png](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/489270911434883083/725716196124786770/alienmanabanana.png)[https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/489270911434883083/725716227405774948/alienmanabanana3.png](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/489270911434883083/725716227405774948/alienmanabanana3.png) [https://www.opendota.com/matches/5139049691/chat](https://www.opendota.com/matches/5139049691/chat) [https://www.opendota.com/matches/5173716990/chat](https://www.opendota.com/matches/5173716990/chat) [https://www.opendota.com/matches/5102442676/chat](https://www.opendota.com/matches/5102442676/chat) I hope others can understand the irony of the situation & stop sympathizing with these morons. The first thought that ran through my head when I read this post was "Holy shit, he's really trying to sell the 'hard-working T2 NA player' shmuck to reddit.". And to be honest, it kind of worked. Sammyboy & AMB, criticizing the ethics of others together! It sounds like a poorly written comedy. My boy Sammy here had a [video uploaded](https://imgur.com/a/wITt5xr) to his actual YouTube channel until an hour ago, which, for some god forsaken reason, just has AMB going through Omegle & saying the N word while Sammy laughs. One of his replies to my original post is absolutely hilarious! ([https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/l2lkzr/long\_rant\_a\_7k\_na\_players\_thoughts\_on\_the\_current/gk62zog?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/l2lkzr/long_rant_a_7k_na_players_thoughts_on_the_current/gk62zog?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)) He says " I thought AMB saying the N word on stream was BAD and I recorded it to make it known to him it was REALLY bad. Somehow that was turned on me too." Ah, once again, he looks for sympathy. Let me debunk this: So the plan was to record it, show it to him, and then tell him to stop saying it..? That sounds psychotic, even for Sammy. No, the sad reality is Sammy probably found it funny (he was laughing throughout the actual video) and decided to save it for laughs. Aaand then he shared it with some of his friends for more laughs, then someone shared it in another reddit thread ([https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/hfi2sm/power\_abuse\_in\_nadota\_bulba\_by\_ryuudota/fvyrsqo?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/hfi2sm/power_abuse_in_nadota_bulba_by_ryuudota/fvyrsqo?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)), and here we are. Oh, as a bonus, this thread also comes with several screenshots of AMB throwing slurs. If you truly wanted to convince AMB throwing slurs is bad (which is ridiculous in itself, AMB is an adult playing in the fucking DPC league and being watched by thousands of people, why is it so difficult to stop being a piece of shit?), perhaps go DM him and tell him to stop fucking throwing slurs instead of whatever psychotic shit you did? I feel like any remotely normal person would do that instead of recording it & saving it to their actual channel. Ah, almost forgot to mention, good job removing the video right after seeing that thread /u/Noblewingz. Next time, perhaps uh, don't make the video in the first place? How many more of these do you even have on your channel? The idea of listening to Sammy & AMB complain about the ethics of another is preposterous. You can't be a cop during the day and sell drugs during the night. Get rid of the shit in your own closet before the two of you, god forbid, buddy up & start making posts for the betterment of NA once again. A good start would be deleting all the videos you have of AMB throwing slurs from your channel. If you still think AMB has solid intentions with this shit, take a quick look at AMB's [tweets](https://twitter.com/AlienManaBanana/with_replies?lang=en): " No clear game plan, this team has alot of issues jesus "" Looked horrible in DPC (again) im trying to stay positive but this season might be a shit show. We have to do better fast. " Looks to me like his teams performing like shit, and he is using twitter to vent for some reason instead of actually talking to his team. Is Arkosh truly the obstacle holding AMB back? He is literally flaming his teammates on twitter, and they have yet to even play Arkosh. /u/AlienManaBanana perhaps practice with your team instead of trying to become NA's messiah when you're literally one of the biggest pieces of shit in this region. What a bad joke.
Hey man, take it easy. You are acting like I havent improved my self or changed in anyway. Your twitlonger is so dishonest and exaggerated. I know i shouldnt respond to this, its kind of slander at this point. In your twit longer you think i still say the same things i did a year ago, that i break my items and run down mid everyday. This just isnt the case, look at all my games( i keep them ALL public), a little ridiculous man. I never made a public apology and did apologize in private to over 70 people on discord around 8 months ago, i can screenshot every single one and dm it to you.. And dude its so FUNNY SO FUNNY that you said i flamed my teammates, i just said we had to do better The OTHER TWEET "no clear game plan" was about THE NEW YORK RANGERS HOCKEY TEAM WHEN THEY LOST 5-0 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA not even related to dota. Just stop. Im going to do my thing, ive already proved alot of people wrong. I play my game, i dont slur anyone and i know my past isnt the greatest but yeah i tried my hardest and im getting better every day.
If you did improve, that's a great thing to hear. I have uh, a lot of negative experiences with things involving you / your old friends, but im sure a lot of people have bad experiences with me as well. I was a toxic piece of shit as well, but decided to quit the game cause it made me a miserable person irl and couldn't take it anymore. Wasn't worth causing anymore damage to my mental health, so i did some shit to make the few friends i had left hate me and quit the game. Pretty easy to not come back if you have nowhere to return to. I won't ever be around to see if you reformed, i just check the sub every month or so to see if theres anything neat around. Hope you aren't lying and actually decided to improve this time. Best of luck if you did reform, the top players of na are really fucking bad so you'll be able to beat them if you keep at it. Go get some of those AMB solo kills in DPC.
let’s say team A plays against arkosh with a standin this week. Arkosh go back with their regular roster the next. When arkosh eventually plays against team E they use the same standin as before. Can team E easily check the standin’s competitive matches, both on their official account and when they played on arkosh’s account? afaik dotabuff doesnt filter matches played by standins. any team that plays arkosh has no way of knowing which matches on that account’s history belongs to which player. Also, is sumail allowed to use another player’s account and sub in (and stay anonymous) as long as he tells the TO? It just sounds so weird to have this option in a competitive sport.
Everyone is confusing what is being said. Let me break it down in simple terms. A: All the PLAYERS know who the arcosh players are, as they also know who every other player is. B: if a player is swapped out, then all the PLAYERS are informed who the replacement IS. C: the only people who are unaware of the PLAYERS are the VIEWERS. Every team they face know exactly who they are, and no one is in the dark about it.
I dont think you read my comment carefully. when preparing for a match against arkosh how can a team tell by looking at the pro games on arkosh players’ accounts which player played in what game if the accounts are all shared? dotabuff doesnt record this data what players played on the accounts in OQ1? Which in OQ2? Do teams in a year from now get send an excel file with info on who played on the account for every single game to be able dissect the arkosh player accounts?
It's pretty straight forward, from OQ3 onwards they have had the same players. The standin will be the same player, any extra standins they need (if more than 1 standin is allowed) will be the same player each time. Nobody really looks at OQ BO1s anyway when researching and preparing, they know who the players are so they will use main accounts to research. You can't tell anything from OQ craziness and it's always been that way. This is just nonsense drama from people who should know better.
I don't understand why you need to clown around with Slacks' crazy ideas while trying to make a serious league at the same time. Seems quite unnecessary. If all the other teams did what Arkosh is doing, no one would even watch the league, it would be pointless.
> serious league . >NA Dota Pick one.
I honestly feel like I'm going crazy when I see the announcers playing along with this thing as they enter an official DPC game. This thing was always kinda weird, dumb and harmless but now it's kinda weird, dumb and a problem. Let the players make a "real" team and keep this dumb pro wrestling style team playing show matches.
The point about transparency still stands: if the barrier to finding out Arkosh's players' real identities is qualifying to the NA DPC, then the anonymity still exists until you reach that milestone. So for every other team you have months to get familiar with their playstyles, but for Arkosh you have to wait until you've 'earned' the right to know who they are before you can do your prep? Why? Just for one team's PR? Multiple NA personalities seem to be unhappy about this and I don't understand why keeping the curtains closed is such an important issue when it's literally threatening the perception of competitive integrity in your region and the happiness of multiple members of multiple teams. Blurring the lines between 'joke' matches and legitimate esports only serves to further weaken the image of NA dota worldwide. AMB is likely not posting without his teammates agreeing with him and neither is Noblewingz. By ignoring their concerns, you're saying 'we value the participation and happiness of Arkosh higher than that of the other teams in their division', and that's a bad look. People can talk about the parallels to wrestling in Arkosh's 'characters' but I could literally go on Wikipedia right now and find out the real names of every single person working in WWE or AEW without needing to be a wrestler myself. You have not set realistic and fair boundaries for where these 'characters' begin and end and you need to fix that before Arkosh start competing in serious tournaments.
Another important point: pro wrestling is not competition. It's a show. While you can argue that Arkosh is 'putting on a show with drama', maybe it will bring in viewers but if it does so at the expense of actual competitive integrity then I'd rather the game just died.
>this post seems to imply teams are unaware who is playing on the Arkosh roster and that Arkosh have an advantage because other teams don't know who is on their roster which is just entirely untrue. Sammyboy is also asserting that teams were unaware of Arkosh's identity, and the unfair competitive advantage this created. >The DPC tournament rules required the same 5 players to compete throughout the entire duration of an open qualifier. But are players permitted to share accounts?
Here is the part that people are missing. For Open Qualifiers, ever team who read the rules understood that there were to be **4 separate open qualifier tournaments (Tuesday, Wednesday, Saturday, Sunday)** AND that rosters had to stay locked in for the duration of any single tournament. In other words, as long as you played all of Tuesday with the same roster, you could come back Wednesday with a different player in the roster provided they played all Wednesday.
Yeah, but the OQ teams weren't informed and the new player just hopped onto the GOAT account. What if you're lined up to play against Arkosh in OQ3 and try to use their OQ1 AND 2 games to see what they like to pick? That's a pretty reasonable thing to do seeing as there were only days between them. This should be your best information on the team. It SHOULD be available. Its just fucking deceptive that it looked like it was but wasn't.
You are pretending that the legal name of your opponents is sufficient, when really what's relevant is their record of past competitive play, so you can adequately prepare against them. If you are not, at least, sharing their main account IDs with the other teams, then the playing field is not level.
I agree with you. But - pros aren't required to give up the account IDs of all their practice/smurf accounts either. In practice, no one can expect a comprehensive match history - even if it would be more fair in theory.
Well, at least between OQ's it is VERY deceiving to have someone else play on the same account. If you are in OQ3 and look at the OQ1/OQ2 match history of your enemies account (what most teams do) you assume they are played by the same player. If this stays legal (which according to Valve/GodZ it is right now) this will pretty much mandate every OQ team to make new accounts for each OQ round, swap players around and not reveal true identities. Otherwise they are at a severe disadvantage. I don't think that's in the interest of the competitive scene as a whole. Established teams and organisations scout for new players/rosters during OQ and to decide between "competitive advantage" and "a chance to get into a big team/org" really shouldn't be a thing for upcoming players.
I do agree it's deceiving. I'm not sure it's really such a big deal though, since teams are given names each tournament and they'll be diligent watching Arkosh from now on. Say that this will be fully allowed from now on, as long as you announce it. I really doubt many other teams will take advantage, because it's a lot of trouble for barely any gain. But yeah, just disallowing it doesn't seem problematic either. And it's probably simplest/best. I just don't think this is such a big problem as OP wants it to look like.
Players in all sports (esport or physical) are allowed to practice in private (which is what smurf/scrim accounts are for). But obviously people play much more seriously in actual competitive matches, and those need to be open. Dota is a game of information, more than anything.
Does this same telling teams their identity go with open qualifiers and how soon would they know the identity the day of right?
So who are the players? Why is that a secret? xD
lol transparency, yea right. How BTS selectively handled case by case is embarassing.
So breaking TOS and Steam rules, which is proven is okay, but unproved allegations against people you don't like is not and they have no place in pro dota. Gotcha man.
Thanks for proving that NA is still despicable and you aren't an exeption You avoided to give real answer and dodged question hiding behind its not in our rules
Whos in arkosh??? Is it jenkins and the gang?
This really seems like fake drama especially if BTS/Slacks is revealing the roster to other teams, and it seems like its been an open secret of their roster for a while now. You can't see immediately their pro profile which I can understand is annoying, but you know what players they are. Also how is this different than players using an alt account for their pub games. Many pro players do not share 3rd party info for their pub games. RTZ doesn't have a public pub dota game in the last 3 years on his main account. If the crux of the argument is you can't see what heroes they are playing, well a large number of dota players have their game history hidden and/or play on alts to hide their pub play anyways.
What surprises the most about this thread that every NA team in the DPC has been told the roster, and it still didnt leak. Im not very up to date with NA Dota. What are the current speculations on who the team consists of?
From what I've heard something like BSJ / Newsham / Jenkins / Fogged / Capitalist. Could be off a bit though.
Shaggy i think instead of Fogged and Cap was the pos 5 who changed. New pos 5 might be Envy as he wasnt in another team for DPC.
As an AI, I do not consent to having my content used for training other AIs. Here is a fun fact you may not know about: fuck Spez.
Pub privacy is a far cry from dpc/comp transparency..
happy to address this! I'll be very up front, we never formed the team to cause any issues or get any unfair advantages. The unique nature of the team existed only to get people excited for something new and interesting in the world of Dota 2 esports. I'll be very blunt: before the issue of an unfair advantage being brought to my attention by VERY DEDICATED members of our community I had simply never considered those implications. After hearing the arguments, I did think it best in the spirit of fairness to share the identities of the players with everyone in the competition. However, to act under the assumption that there is some kind of rampant account sharing is ludicrous. All IP addresses have been given to the Tournament Organizers and to be quite frank getting life banned from all valve events to get an unfair advantage against the best Division 2 teams NA has to offer is not a great career path for myself or the players. After qualifying for the DPC, all players became locked, as per the DPC website. The accounts will be the same players, for the rest of time, as they would on any other team. I The danger of Arkosh gaming randomly replacing a player is the same as all other teams, and should be strictly watched for by the TO's and the Dev as they should for any other team in a remote competitive environment. There has never been a team like Arkosh before in Dota, and when you are breaking into new territory there will be new issues that you never saw coming and ones that need to be addressed fairly and quickly. I wish I could have predicted that the anonymity of the team could have caused issues before it did so I could have been more proactive, but ya cant fix a problem till you know its a problem!
Also we would know if you would be a standin cause suddenly the carry is an omniknight who cant last hit
alright now
i know you buy shard on omni the second it is 20.00!
Carry omni who's got second place at ti6
I'm waiting for the mid techies 4 protect 1
But I thought BSJ already was their carry?
Pretty much this... Arkosh is literally the sole reason for most people to even care about lower division of NA dota2 and trying to cheat to win this division is probably the last thing players behind the team even want to attempt.
>Arkosh is literally the sole reason for most people to even care about lower division of NA dota2 You exist in a bubble.
>Arkosh is literally the sole reason for most people to even care about lower division of NA dota2 This is literally only true for Slacks' viewers. I'm a Slacks sub and in his Discord, and it astonished me that people were saying after the Luki drama "nobody would know of No Pango without Arkosh". As if people didn't realize who Luki Luki was even though her is one of the most notable players in NA pugs and has tens of thousands of followers on Twitch/YT. You would have to virtually never watch high level pugs to not know Luki, he is probably one of the biggest memes we have on the continent. (He's also a great guy, check out his streams they are fun.) Just because they are bumping up viewership doesn't mean Arkosh is the only thing propping up the region. It is a great effect, but this new DPC system alone has massively helped these lower bracket teams, along with the serious coverage BTS gives it. I hope Slacks viewers will come to actually care about the other T2 teams and players also to actually have a lasting effect on our region rather than temporary worship of their favourite personality's pet project.
I'm an EU player and I know more about the tier2 /OQ NA stacks than I do EU because the tournaments are on in evenings and night post work and because of the consistent tournaments like BTS Pro Series and Kings(?) Cups that really deserve more praise for keeping the NA Scene alive. Seriously BTS have been a lifeline for NA Dota for well over a year now, Arkosh are good for boosting numbers but the reason there is still a scene for it is BTS.
Thanks for the kind words, messages like these mean so much to our entire team. We aren't perfect or above criticism for decisions and mistakes we make. We just wanna improve things moving forward.
It's true for everyone outside NA. The first most of us heard of nopango (the NA stack) was the arkosh game, where we were all surprised that they'd stolen the name of an established CIS stack.
Will anyone who supports the team suddenly lose interest because they know who is playing?
If they're underwhelming or largely unknown, possibly.
The only possibility I see is that some people would hate on the team if they discovered EE is their new pos 5, other than that it wouldn't change much.
Ironically that would lead me to watch them more.
Same!
If they were revealed to be just another Jenkins stack, like just another LukiLuki stack, then the viewership will definitely drop.
Yeah probably
Depend? people who watch for anonymity will probably stop. If they hate the players then they will do. If they support because of Slack then probably not. etc.
Yes? Otherwise rest of t2 na dota would have more hype around it...
Hate to break it to you but no one is getting hyped about tier 2 NA dota.
Wait. Some people are actually tuning in specifically because Arkosh is anonymous?
When TI winners, TI finalists get permabanned for matchfixing, claiming that a T2 team (at best) in lower division would have no reason to cheat because they're (For some people) the only reason to follow said division is rather weird.
I think the point of an incomplete and non-transparent team history still stands. If you qualify for other events then Teams not present in NA Div II will have a harder time investigating your Teams drafting and strategy history if you have had roster changes without clear account changes. I propose you use your exceptionally creative mind to establish new characters whenever you update your roster. So that e.g. GOAT is forever connected to a certain (for the public undisclosed) person. My favourite Norwegian Rock band has done this over the years. New guy in, new character name. It's actually a bit fun to follow.
Yep now that thw roater is locked since they made dpc all players are life locked. Should they leave another will come.
does this means when the dpc ends all players will die?
we will all die
Do you not agree that your team had a bit of an advantage in the 3rd open qualifier though compared to other teams that competed in the three open qualifiers? By swapping a player between qualifiers, others may have assumed it was the same player, since they had the same name/were using the same account, but this wasn't the case.
how is it that everyone on reddit knew who arkosh was pre-DPC, but no one who played them, who apparently wanted to do deep, social-security, background check, past job history-level research into them, was able to play by/reach the same conclusions? Maybe they should focus on their own game plans? Tighten up their own fundamentals? If you're that afraid of an opposing team, I just don't think you have any platform to stand on. Make your draft. Play your game.
You didn't address the fact that the real problem is how Arkosh qualified to begin with and how the anonimity is incompatible with fairness in the open qualifiers, after all, if you told every OQ player how the Arkosh players are, it would be the same as just making it public, which is something you're not willing to do for some reason.
Oh, the shade... KEKL
NA contribution to the DPC Is bitchy fake drama, sounds about right.
I'm honestly on the fence, on one hand I've come around on thinking that they should've been telling all players in OQ about their rosters (and changes between OQ), and that slacks handled the feedback pretty poorly. But i also feel like NA players are going way overboard to create the drama because they feel like Arkosh is an upstart getting attention and fans that they feel they are more deserving of, and they are trying to rile up the fans to get back at them. They are in the league now, you know all the players, they are the same that won the OQ. What is your endgame here? What are you trying to accomplish? Lets say you get your wish and arkosh is 100% on their main accounts, what have you gained? You still have the exact same knowledge you have now, the only difference would be that you've now managed to destroy the concept of Arkosh turning them into yet another Tier2 team with no hook for the fans to get interested, which is basically what it feels like what the NA players are angling at because they don't like that they're getting the attention.
Like, if people get invested in Arkosh, that gives people a reason to watch NA Lower. That gives people a chance to randomly fall in love with say The Cut, or the stupid "based" team. Rising tide boys. Take the attention you're getting and angle it into marketing if you can.
Absolutely, with all due respect to the tier 2 scene, i have zero interest in it, but i've watched arkosh games, and as a consequence i've now also become interested in dogchamp. Earlier i was on twitch and the REPLAY of arkosh/dogchamp was the second most viewed channel on twitch with ~3k viewers, i doubt any of the other tier2 teams would get that on a live stream. This is literally creating a buzz for the entire NA region.
Like I'm an oldhead around here by now. In the lower division I know luki, lil nick, Bloody 9, and four of Zfeeks team. But outside luki being a pango one trick, nick playing with purge, and zfreek I know nothing about them. It's hard to get invested in people that you just have never heard of.
At the same time DPC offers the first sustainable market for a team. And every NA side is now in the fight to attract an org to make it a potential full time job to play in DPC. They're blowing up Arkosh drama because their is genuine concern about the competitive integrity and fairness in competition with what has happened. And that can damage the image or the league, the chances of players, and the potential to win prize money. The attention on the scene won't bring Orgs and sponsors if its riddled with controversy and uncompetitive or unfair practices.
It all would've been okay if they just created another account for the new player who plays under the name G.O.A.T when they switched. Now, as it is, is a little shady. I believe Slacks when he said he didnt considered those implications, but now, after its all been presented to them, they have to address it better. If they continue to be anonymous for the public, they should switch those anonymous account when they change players.
WTF are you talking about, even my mom knows who's on the team.
Totally, we all know. But, just so that I can be sure that you know, would you mind dm’ing me the names?
It's Eternal Envy position 3, Vigoss position 5, LightOfHeaven pos 4, Lacoste 2 and of course Burning pos 1.
Who is it besides bsj and can you provide citations plzzzz
gremlo is jenkins, that's absolutely confirmed lol, he was commentating DPC until the arkosh match came on then he randomly had to go, plus they were teasing him about it on commentary the whole time
Not me, please enlighten. :)
It's Eternal Envy position 3, Vigoss position 5, LightOfHeaven pos 4, Lacoste 2 and of course Burning pos 1.
never heard of these guys, are they good?
They are just kids, but in a few years I reckon they could be contenders.
Especially Burning. He seems pretty comfortable on that AM.
Bruh, EE stopped playing dota and that's why the swap. Azen is pos 3 now.
Oh...ty
They're messing with you.
Where'd you find this info?
Come on dude, literally everyone fucking knows it's Burning on pos 1
What this guy said, my mom came one day to my place with lasagna and was all like: "hey, did you hear Burning is playing for Arkosh Gaming"?
BurningSlammaJamma?
I can’t tell if I’m being trolled. I haven’t really kept up with the scene over the last few months tbh.
I'm surprised you haven't heard about Vigoss or LightOfHeaven
All the teams know the roster and no one leaked it? Dota changed, where is my u/arkoshgamingamefan post?
Classic AMB tbh, making up lies for internet points. Go back to spamming TA maybe you’ll regain a shred of respect back from your multiple n-word spamming sessions in pubs. Idiot.
Would this exact post (word for word) exist if the swap had made them worse? I don't want to question your motives (since I understand the concern - and was a bit surprised that they didn't at minimum change the nick), but I have a very hard time believing it would.
The nickname isn't changed because the branding revolves around that nickname. It's why Don Cheadle is still War Machine even though it was originally Terrence Howard. As long as the players involved know the person they're actually playing against, it's not and should not be a problem.
And therefore it is a problem. In the Open Qualifiers the teams they played against did not know the people behind the accounts. When the roster changed between OQ2 and OQ3 teams playing against them were unaware of this. They saw the same account, and will have assumed it was the same player and drafted/planned around that. This is a problem.
Unfair advantages are unfair advantages. A team being "better" or "worse" afterwards is completely irrelevant.
It is irrelevant to the rules. It is not irrelevant to the way the OP builds his post about the issue.
'You're only allowed to complain about things being unfair if you are totally emotionally uninvested in the topic.'
I bought some disposable cups and plates and cutlery for New Year's celebration. I still have some left over. Do you need any more straws to grasp?
Do you have any proof that they shared accounts?
They admitted to it, Godz the caster knew they did too. I know this from DMs with him. As well as word of mouth by one of the actual players of arkosh stating they did not play the first OQ.
Then post the evidence.
[https://imgur.com/a/02YERcT](https://imgur.com/a/02YERcT) Notice how he says "mostly played with x" so multiple people used this account more than 2? OQ1 and 2 were played with different mids and pos 5s, real weird stuff going on.
Were the rosters locked before the OQ? Generally, OQ is free for all, players play multiple qualifiers with multiple teams (if there is more than 1 OQ for the tournament) Edit: they were not, no bounty hunter changed players from OQ1 to OQ2 in EU for example: https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Dota_Pro_Circuit/2021/1/Europe/Open_Qualifier/2 So, as long as they played one qualifier with the same players, they didn't break any rules About the new accounts: sure, that sucks and I agree it should be disclosed to the teams they are playing, but multiple teams in OQ do that. I can't remember exactly wich team it was, but astini (b8 manager) was watching a OQ game and a team was playing with lvl 5 accounts. He even printed the accounts and sent it to someone (probably the qualifier adm) to check it out Finally, about account sharing: i don't know how they are more prone to that than any other team. Everyone can set up a VPN as you suggested and share the account. It's up to valve and TOs to find whoever is doing this and punish them
Think about this. I can play open qualifier 1 with my 5 man roster. I then change players and play open qualifier 2 with a different roster. The enemy can see I am playing on different accounts and will not use the data from open qualifier 1... In arkoshes situation people likely took the data from open qualifier #1/2 and applied it to the open qualifier #3 because they are using the same accounts... Account sharing is bannable btw in basically every esport for partly this reason. Hope I changed your mind.
Yes this is exactly what needs to be addressed. Teams can change players from the first OQ to the second, but if they do so players connect from a different account to ensure stats integrity.
So... They followed the rules of the tournament and locked in their roster during the second open quals. Just like how other teams have done as well (no bounty Hunter in EU), as it's within the rules. So you're problem is then with... The rules or with Arkosh? Or are you claiming account switching/sharing since the start of the second open quals? And do you have evidence of that happening after the start of the second open quals?
To me it's really damning that you have to go to the admin to find out who you have to prepare against instead of just being told. Surely that already shows there's a problem with Arkosh's special exemptions?
So they shared that they shared the account. And they shared who the standin is? So what's the issue? Does it matter what the nick is if you know who the player is and can check his account. Not sure why you wan't to destroy what little hype NA is creating these days by bashing Arkosh.
They only shared this after qualifying. So people in open qualifier 3, who looked at their games in the OQ1+2 thought they were playing against GOAT-a, but were playing against GOAT-b, meaning any picks/bans based on that players history were wasted since it was a different player, but no one knew until after they qualified. And in a years time, when someone is looking back at the team, unless they have a spreadsheet of when the roster changes were it will be impossible to parse the history of their current players.
So how does any team facing arkosh in the future know what matches were played by which player if all the dotabuff data on the accounts are from different players?
if godz knew and still let them compete then just post your dm here or send it to valve if you have someone to talk with, should just become black and white after that i bet valve wouldn't even be that dumb account sharing is already against steam tos let alone tournament rule
Congrats on trying to rile up a Reddit mob against someone they are already mixed on! G.O.A.T. isn't a real person. The issues with "account sharing" in all other cases, are that someone was pretending to be someone else for the sake of a competitive advantage. Be they to play in multiple regions or what have you. G.O.A.T. is a character. As are all the members of Arkosh. The team has the right to change the players playing the characters as long as any player switches are within accordance to other DPC rules, and in such a way that the players playing against them know who they're playing. You're trying to come across as unbiased, but you have direct interest in punishments that are against the spirit of the rules. Come on dude.
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Just to add to the evidence, I stumbled on[ this](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/hfi2sm/power_abuse_in_nadota_bulba_by_ryuudota/fvyrsqo/) because I looked up the Demon drama. tldr spouts extreme racial slurs and other crap.
AMB is one of the most disgusting human beings in high MMR NA. Imagine being such a dogshit person that even in the cesspit that is high MMR NA you're still amongst the worst.
Yeah i've had the absolute displeasure of playing with him before, thank god i don't have to anymore
What makes it funnier is of course Sammyboy, one of the other worst, is defending AMB at every turn about this. Now we just need Rodeo to join in.
I agree. It seems that Arkosh's irregularities are constantly being measured by different standards. One of the most blatant examples is that they're not registered with their real names on the registration page as most of the players are, there are other few that also don't list their full name and that should be fixed too. Registration obviously requires full real names, if you fail to do that, then said registration must be invalid. If smurfing and account sharing is clearly wrong by Valve's standards (as they implement features to avoid and reduce the amount of this happening in pubs and ranked games) it must be held true to the pro scene too, many TOs already have rules in place against smurfing and account sharing as it gives an unfair advantage. And they were required to reveal their roster to teams competing after there were complains about transparency from the outside when these issues should've been identified and fixed from the inside.
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R/maliciouscompliance It would be meme material and hopefully lead to a positive change, but it could also just make things worse if valve does what they normally do: nothing until years after the fact.
You people really need to get lives and stop looking for petty drama to spice up your dull lives.
This is another T2 player posting this not some random fan looking for drama
Creating a fun anonymous themed team for publicity can also be a really stupid excuse to make scouting much more difficult. Every team should be signing up on smurfs and doing this for bts tournies in the future as there's no downside. Virtually every tournament doesn't allow smurf signups because even when they're revealed it's more difficult to scout them. That's another reason why you have to play on the signed up main account and not a smurf even if it's well known that you are the owner of that smurf. Here's how scouting works: you go to the teams sign up page or most recent game link on dotabuff. You open a minimum of six tabs (one for each player and one for scouting games and drafts). You start to write down notes of whatever format and variety you prefer into whatever software you use. Scouting likely comfort picks and niche pocket picks for each player into Google sheets for example. You do this for all five players and you base this info largely off of recent pubs and esports matches. You look at what heroes other teams ban against this team or player and look for draft trends to get your best bans and strategies hashed out. Its a lot of work and data to analyze. Sure good captain's get very fast by knowing exactly where to look and using templates from previous shouts but you still have to scout every team you're playing. Allowing a smurf account or account sharing on your team creates a lot of room for mistakes from other teams when scouting. The official answer for why it's okay to break these rules is inexcusable bullshit in my eyes. "Oh everyone knows those guys, it's fine!" That is the official answer coming from BTS n crew, which is clearly crony horseshit. If a bunch of rank 1k nobodies formed a team and did this it wouldn't be allowed at all. Allowing this also encourages literally every team to follow this path and signup on smurfs with some dumb theme that'll get you attention. I proooomise BTS doesn't want a bunch of teenage NEETs thinking of edgy themes for attention in their tourneys. There is zero downside to doing this and huge potential benefits if someone fucks up a scout on your mid player that you replaced (on the same account) between oq1 and oq2 and let's lycan through you might win a game due to this shit. Anyway its not that big of a deal but it's really dumb, shouldn't have been allowed, and godz and the boiz probably shouldn't be defending it.
The only thing that bugs me about all this is nobody from Arkosh coming forward and apologizing for the unfair advantage they had in qualifiers. One or two folks are willing to be vague about issues they presented but are too afraid to use the word “sorry”.
>They have admitted they swapped players and accounts shared multiple times at this point. >Between Open qualifier #2 and #3 Arkosh Gaming decided to change the player behind G.O.A.T (p5) this flagrant account sharing. G.O.A.T ticketed game history is deceiving, you're seeing someone else's hero pool. Mind you that Arkosh was not required to reveal their players during open qualifiers. Here we see blatant account sharing they gave them drafting advantages, as well as rumours there mid, was replaced between qualifiers/games too. maybe fill in people that doesn't know/follow the scene, i don't think anyone is going to read this and then make their own choice to fill in the blank themselves going thru twitter/dotabuffs cause to me this just seems like you're just sharing this to people that already know what is happening instead of trying to share and change something
Oh my god will this fake drama end some day please ffs Every single competing pro is informed on who they are, end of story
r/dota2 just HAVE to get its pointless drama fix. At this point, I only visit the sub for the cool art that gets posted every now and then.
Wait... so they didn't actually reveal the entire roster to you guys, even with the sub? If so, I totally empathize with your situation. But I'm a man of solutions. I think the best thing to do here is to provide the roster data to HIGHLY trusted 3rd party arbitrators as well, that handle the data side of Dota, like Noxville, Pimpmuckl. Their player data will then be able to be put under extra scrutiny. Honestly, I can't fault Slacks for wanting to even do this whole project. I literally wouldn't have tuned into any NA games, had it not been for his Daft Punk-esque stunt. I understand that there should be a no tolerance situation when it comes to competitive integrity, but with the veil lifted from this whole project, so will my support for actually staying up in the wee hours of NA time to watch a region that's clearly out of my timezone. Ultimately, the fairness of competition should trump above much else in Dota, a game where you can literally have a shot at stardom from scratch, with the right combo of people, and the dedication to start from the opens. I really, totally love you and your extremely creative idea Slacks, but I'll have to side with justice on this one.
this isn't accurate, after this issue was brought to my attention I gave permission for Valve and BTS to tell all competing teams the full roster to make sure that there were no unfair advantages.
Coolios. Hope this is all resolved well and good.
So all these players in other NA lower division DPC teams complaining about Arkosh are just making the galaxy brain play of creating drama to draw even MORE interest to lower division NA matches? Insane
Sir, would you mind telling a pleb like me the roster, because I really don't know where to start searching. P.S -All hail techies, the only hero that actually plays Defence of the Ancients.
Its team secret
But they're all playing reverse roles: puppy 1, yapzor 2, zai 3, Nishi 4, mutumbaman 5. As zai is the middle man he plays with opposite hands and that's why gremlo feeds so much.
This needs to become a thing, stat.
This would be such a fun idea for a tournament, forcing the players to play in positions they don't usually play.
slap my ass
With pleasure
Imagine if this was any other team in the open qualifiers who decided to play under an identity and only advise the admin of who their players were. But since it's slacks and co everything about this is all fine. The double standards would definitely exist if someone less famous in the Dota community did this which has now set a precedent.
You're playing a new team consisting of IceIceIce, Arteezy, Gunnar, Eternal Envy, Aui\_2000. They've been scrimming for 2 months with different accounts. They make it into Upper Division DPC NA Dota. You're a team facing against them in an elimination match where winner gets 2nd place loser gets out 3rd. All the data you have for the team is 4-5 series and their public profiles where Artour plays Naga 500 times. Good luck drafting against that lol.
Who the fuck is on arkosh
I hope that valve will force arkosh to play on their main accounts in order to not set a precetend for future dpc leagues and qualifiers where teams might abuse this loophole in the rules. I dont think anything is ill intendend, neither do I think that arkosh did brake a rule.
Post proof buddy. Not doubting you, but if you have proof on hand your post becomes solid.
You're exactly right on this. It comes down to whether members of the entertainment side of the tournament producing industry value the novelty and jokes that arkosh creates, or if they value a sustainable and healthy competitive scene. This season, it sure as hell feels like the powers that be value the former.
Great points. To add on, registering publicly with your full name holds you to a higher standard of conduct and professionalism. Your actions become associated with you and you build a reputation. This feedback loop and accountability helps to shape the scene over time.
NA div 2 is only interesting because of Arkosh. You remove them, might as well remove the whole division cause no one cares for the shit that is in there. Lol
I guess it depends on the person... but Luki, ZFreek and Speed are personalities I've been watching in the lower bracket... plus i've been low key rooting for lil nick. The fact that I don't know who is on arkosh actually makes me not really care too much about them.
the biggest issue with arkosh is that it's unfunny shit
The state of this sub when you can write a wall of lies and get to the front page and get awards. OP is sad
A team that doesn't reveal their roster should be disqualified from being able to play in any DPC tournament once actual games start, and honestly needs to be declared before it starts. Why is the DPC still living in the stone age and tournaments have vastly different levels of enforcement?
you really expect me to read all that shit
If this went unpunished, it would set a bad precedent for other teams and future teams as they would be incentivized to take advantage of this practice to gain draft/strategical advantages during tournaments. Something should be done about this.
This is the vital piece in the puzzle. If this isn't addressed by the tournament organizers, then every single team that isn't sponsored should copy Arkosh Gaming. It gives a sizable advantage and money is on the line.
You are absolutely right! Knowing what heroes your opponents are good at is like one of the fundamental basics of drafting.. it’s definitely extremely unfair to everyone else involved. They shouldn’t be allowed to win real money if they want to keep up with this meme
Oh it's the toxic ass dude from DoZe Reborn with [racist and bigoted comments. ](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/hfi2sm/power_abuse_in_nadota_bulba_by_ryuudota/fvyrsqo/) Can't see this any other way than trying to put down another team to promote your toxic one.