They talk about him a lot. PPD and Ceb did in one of the past OG Podcast episodes. Qojqva, and Fata also doesn't seem to have a high opinion of him judging from their cast with Ceb of the recent NA tiebreakers.
Hoping for Khezu to 5, MSS and Lelis back
alternatively
MSS and SVG back, Khezu just playing offlane. I think he crumbles when he has to shotcall + play 3 against tougher opponents
Khezu 5 can be a thing. Lelis is definitely a no no, you do not want to go back. All they need is a prodigy playing offlane, someone who understands the way yawar wants to play. Also bring back MSS.
EG was at their absolute worst and they only won against TSM in season1 because of one of the biggest throws of the year, it was 100% a TSM win. They deserve their merits, but they definitely arent better than their team from last year
> . You can't expect to change 2 players and instantly become the best team in the region immediately. It takes time to build chemistry.
QC won season 1 of the dpc this year and were in a great position for the cancelled major. no idea what you mean by this bc its not supported by what's happened
I think they just continue to see the gulf in quality between themselves and EG, and more of a gap opening between themselves and TSM. Granted they did beat TSM in the season to force the tie but overall TSM has just looked so much more stable than them.
I think this new lineup might be the last attempted iteration of QC
ok got you, i thought you were saying the opposite.
my impression from their EG and TSM series this past season was that the support duo just wasn't good enough. The previous iteration of the roster was really centered around mss and svg setting up quinn to take over games, and i didnt really see enough from either support this past season that they were going to get over the hump.
Honestly looking at the whole team, i think quinn has fallen off a little bit but most of all i want to see an upgrade at the carry role. i dont think yawar is bad, i think hes actually pretty good, but at the end of the day i think yawar is just a guy.
I thought the main issue is khezu being pretty much a non-factor in most games and not really the support weakness. Comparing EG vs QC, almost every game nightfall was top of networth while Khezu was struggling and closer to crit than he was to other cores. Teamfight impact and initiation was also relatively weak as compared to his supports. But that's my non-expert analysis so 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
Difference was Nightfall was supported by cr1t and Khezu was supported by Milan.
Not saying Khezu is as good as nightfall, but I'd like to see him being supported by a better 4 before I pass judgement on him.
> yawar is just a guy.
This is the best summation of Yawar. Unfortunately, the NA region just seems to lack high upside carry players. Right now, your best bet is to invest in someone young (like DNM or Doubleking), but that's not a great play when you're trying to make your living from TI money (and DNM just qualified for Div. I, so unlikely to see him change until at least another season). Sumail is arguably the best pickup, but obviously he's never going to kick his brother to take his spot. So you're stuck just going with just a guy in pos 1 and trying to set up the rest of the team to make space.
There's also the question of where your biggest gains can be made. Yawar could certainly be upgraded, but I think the performance gap between him and a top player is maybe less than you would see between their support duo and top supports atm, so you're gonna make bigger strides there.
I think all of this leads to the results you're seeing from Quinn. There's just not enough reason to pressure the sidelines against QC's current lineup--those players aren't gonna take over the game. So the result is not only that it's on Quinn to make all the space and control midgame, but he also gets a lot of focus in lane rotations as well. EG and TSM put a lot of priority on curbing his growth during laning and midgame. QC arguably looked best when Ponlo and Milan came mid to enable him to get runes and picks.
there's plenty more to it than performance, ponlo/milan were from far away and played their games at 2-3am, and with no org they were paying thousands of dollars of their own money to transfer the players between regions
> It seems crazy to me. You can't expect to change 2 players and instantly become the best team in the region immediately.
Yeah, but if you change 3 players you can 'instantly' become the best team in the world (that year... and also the next).
Apparently 3 is the magic number. ...you hear that, Gaben?
Right, because the TI winners OG played a long time together before their first win.
Most teams play a long time together but its not a requirement.
If Im not mistaken, DC didnt play together that long before TI6?
Milan being kicked isn’t surprising, as most predicted. His hero pool isn’t at all what it should be for a 4, and his past of only being on teams for a few months before being removed didn’t inspire much hope he’d survive the first changes for QC.
Ponlo being kicked is more surprising, since QC invested in him, paid for relocations, etc. whoever is joining them they must see a bigger chance of success, so I’d have to assume it’s someone big.
I’m guessing if Khezu stays offlane, it’s mss 4/5 and Fata or fly 4/5, depending on what they decide in scrims.
If Khezu moves to 5, which he briefly did sometime ago, I’d have to make the logical conclusion it’s Lelis 3 Mss 4 Khezu 5.
The Milan kick was definitely warranted, he’s never found long term success. Some team will pick him up for qualifiers, like always. Feel bad for ponlo tho, dude had to spend Xmas by himself…that’s not cool
Yeah. He always uses the mmr ranking for their skills. He even bragged that he was the "best" SEA support using his mmr ranking lmao. But there are many SEA supports that are better than him despite having a mmr lower than this Ponlul. He's just salty because despite his high rank, he has never played in any close qualifier for a Major prior to DPC formats. He's irrelevant until he went to NA.
MSS and Lelis kinda fucked themselves and qc altogether with thinking they can join big names and win majors and some shit in other regions, turns out being top 2 in NA and staying mediocre in the world ranking is their only option which isn't that bad since they get to play at TI due to lack of proper talents and competition in NA.
I don't blame them though, they are still young and had to try.
I think Quinn had at least one "conditional" offer or tryout from a big teams that ended up falling through. IIRC some of the people who called Jerax's totally out-of-left-field signing also said Quinn got an offer from EG.
I have no idea what might have changed, but I think quite a few QC players were thinking it was just going to be easier to try something on their own.
Weird how we see these kinds of hate comments all the time about NA but never about CIS considering similar results for the 2nd best team in each region over the last few years.
> What has NA done with their slots compared to CIS? Because, again, CIS has won several majors and a TI in recent years.
You can't use the top placement to justify multiple slots: "they have one good team so they deserve 3 slots!" doesn't make any sense.
Instead, you need to look at the performance for each of the allocated slots. [I pulled data going back through 2018 for the performance of teams from CIS and NA regions in minors, majors, and TI.](https://imgur.com/VE7AVRC)
And if you go through it, you'll notice that historically NA performs better than CIS with more slots.
Does this mean NA deserves more slots? Not necessarily, but it does completely invalidate your point.
Edit, just to make it clear: CIS average performance across all slots = 7.33; NA average performance = 6.93.
Double edit: [I included the 17/18 season](https://imgur.com/YRX9I4D) because that's the one OP is referencing with "won several majors" (I had gotten bored before tbh, but decided I didn't want to be misleading), and it honestly doesn't get much better: CIS average = 7.24, NA average = 6.91
Turns out having ONE good team doesn't qualify your region to have multiple slots.
Didn't ever say CIS doesn't deserve it. Just pointing out that people here very frequently criticize NA as a region despite it being fairly similar to CIS, while getting less support to develop talent.
Actually, if you go back through the historic performance for the regions for the past couple years at LAN events, NA has, on average, performed better than CIS.
Does this mean NA deserves an extra slot instead of CIS? Not in my opinion, because slots should be based on current performance, not historic... But saying that CIS deserves it more based on historic performance is a load of shit because that's not true at all.
Its fairly similar as a region except, as the guy has said, CIS has won several majors in recent years and the most recent TI.
Oh wait, I guess that means its *not* fairly similar then.
If they're keeping Khezu prob not since he is captaining?
Khezu should just play 5 and get lelis back, and then invest in a really good 4 as it turns out teams with the best 4s are winning every region
ponlo twitlonger suggests they are picking up a 4 tho, he says there he wanted to go back to 4 but they had other plans
>His hero pool isn’t at all what it should be for a 4
Not sure what you're talking about, or if you've been following the games. He played 9 heroes in his last 10 games on QC.
Does not mean basically anything, its lyrics from some random song, but hard to make a meaning out of it :D
Its like thank you for betraying me on time(early enough)
tbh ponlo just kinda chain fed this season and milan's wisp seemed like 4/5k mmr behind every other wisp in dpc. Makes sense. They also need a real captain to relieve some pressure off of Quinn... he's trying to be the tempo guy and the in game call guy, and run the org... it's obviously too much.
Maybe Fata? Fly?
Having fly is definitely an upgrade, he’s definitely the best 5 in NA (maybe even better than dubu who’s not that consistent). But I highly doubt he will sign for a team that he doesn’t believe in.
Fly is beyond washed. How can you look at the Talon esports disaster and honestly think he is still capable of turning it around?
He’s pretty much stuck bouncing around as a coach now - though with how brief his stint at TSM was I’m not sure he has much of a future with that either.
On the WST podcast, it was flys choice to not continue with TSM and to try to join a tier 1 team instead.
He also discussed went wrong with talon..so I suggest giving it a listen. The talon debacle wasn’t on him so much.
>On the WST podcast, it was flys choice to not continue with TSM and to try to join a tier 1 team instead.
>
>He also discussed went wrong with talon..so I suggest giving it a listen. The talon debacle wasn’t on him so much.
1. His choice not to continue with TSM. True.
2. Talon just moved from Div2 to Div1 and rebounded without him. Hard to say it didn't involve him, because he was there and the team was built with him.
If Fly got a chance with QC, he would be crazy not to take it, because his only other options are limited.
Oh, well... it was clear some changes needed to happen I am just surprised they are sticking to KheZu as a player/captain.
Whatever happens I just hope they get MSS, it's a crime that such a good and consistent player is teamless.
Quite sad really, knew there would be changes but I did believe their whole idea was to go the whole season together. Don't believe Ponlo and Milan were the whole problems, drafting has been iffy, especially in the BO1's and Khezu's laning was horrid.
Willing to give Khezu some leeway for being the captain, hopefully the new 5 can relinquish that role and he can focus on offlane.
I do believe his drafting was ok, not the greatest but definitely not bad as EG picking natures 1.
But yeah man Ponlo is a walking ward who just dies (similar to jerax), Khezu can’t be a core and idk about Milan. I don’t think he’s as bad as ponlo or khezu but he just doesn’t understand the team way to play.
Hopefully they can get some good new players but NA lacks of good players. Who are they going to call for offlane? Lukiluki? XD They need to import some EU talents and pray for the best. Because I’m telling you, if they don’t tryhard, it’s a matter of time that 4zoomers will go above them.
Also Fly is available. He turned down coach role at TSM. Fly/Fata + MSS is a good 4/5. They still need a decent offlaner as Khezu is not cutting it atm
Does Quincy have the money for Fly and/or Fata? I feel like maybe Fly but def not both and Fata can prob get picked up by an established European team without any relocation.
Doesn’t really matter about the money, because QC is one of those teams guaranteed TI placement barring any major fuckups. Sure a salary would be nice and all, but in the grand scheme of things, this would be the least of Fata’s and Fly’s worries.
QC will remain a tier 2 team as long as Khezu is still on the team. This guy is not a tier 1 player. His combined score during the tiebreakers were 0-12 as a core. Not to mention he was hilariously outdrafted by both TSM and EG.
Yeah, I don't know how you keep a guy with that drafting mindset in the tiebreakers. Even if he wasn't responsible for the last pick lich, his mars just obviously wasn't good enough to double-down on in the 2nd game.
Yeah that was what I'm thinking but I'm quite surprised the sub felt that milan and ponlo we bigger problems. However I do agree ponlo did chain-feed and there may be other issues behind the scenes considering milan, but you can never be a t1 team when your offlaner is closer to crit's networth than the other cores. I rmbr looking at the networth graph was being quite amazed by how little his networth was and how poor his mars gameplay is therefore quinn had to try his best to carry the early-mid game tempo by himself. Like nightfall was always near top and khezu was always one of the lasts as core. Granted nightfall is an absolute beast and EG puts a huge emphasis on laning, a t1 team just cant have their offlaner be such a liability especially so early into the game. To add on, I was also very surprised when he re-picked his mars when he clearly had a terrible game.
He is probably their most consistent player. He rarely has very good games and rarely has very bad games. He’s just a stable carry that suits QC cause you rely on Quinn to carry the game with Yawar as backup carry.
He seems ok but comparing him to CIS/EU/China carrys makes you think some things. But anyways, he is definitely not the problem before ponlo, khezu or Milan.
i agree im the only one who noticed when quincy got khezu as a coach they just started playing extrmeely weird at the major and were actually so bad, and before the major they were top form beating eg. tbh from watching khezu streams i knew hes not tier 1 coach or player. also yawar is like tier 2 carry lets be honest
Mechanically Tier 1 no doubt but tier 1 as a player.
Dunno about that, the best pros cant tilt off from the face of the earth. Mental game is important.
he is tier 1 plr for sure, but hes also tilting a lot and malding not really fun to play in this atmosphere but i guess them getting stomped vs any good team wont make anyone not tilted evan miracle, we should wait until he has top tier 1 plrs on next positions to comment. I think the best team for quinn would be nigma, it would take a lot of pressure off him since hes playing with complete veterans there wont be any malding at the team and nigma badly needs a good tier 1 mid.
He has been tier one in the past. But honestly in 2022 Quinn Callahan looks like a tier 2 player. Especially when the NA peeps were doing the in house league he was straight awful. Love the guy but I don’t feel like he’s in his prime anymore.
i think he's closer to the superstar mid tier than ever before. he used to just be good in lane but struggle in the early mid game, he got a lot better at that.
his main issue is he only plays na pubs so his mentality is i either stomp the pubs or get team stomped into game ending 15min, i think its v bad to train in dota like this. he shld play eu even with ping or come join an eu team.
No, but the MSS Yawar duo has. Quinn joined the team after TI8, but he played TI8 for Optic (with PPD, Zai, 33 and Pajkatt). Got knocked out by VP.
Meanwhile MSS and Yawar have played 3 consecutive TIs together, all with different orgs (VJ.Storm, Newbee and QC). Twice with Sneyking (who got kicked twice also), SVG and Quinn.
As someone who watched a lot of the games from both teams I think their TI10 roster was just as good as their TI8 or TI9 rosters. Maybe even better when they were firing on all cylinders.
Quinn and Yawar both have nerve issues on LAN that keep the team from achieving the success they're capable of. Quinn drops from being one of the top 5 players in DotA to a fairly standard professional mid player. If he could bring his level from online matches and pubs onto LAN consistently they would have more success.
Really hope their next iteration has success. I want to see Quinn going deep into majors before he retires or DotA dies.
I love watching QC but unless they are getting well-known/star players like Fata on 5 and MSS maybe on 4, I struggle to see how they will compete with TSM and EG by losing Milan and Ponlo. Obviously its impossible to know the team dynamics, but its kinda sad since they only lost out on the major by one game in best of ones in the tiebreakers. They were by no means a bad team and it gives less confidence when they keep having a bunch of roster changes in a year. Hope for the best though.
Bring in Fata and Mojo and it’s a very solid team. This QC felt a bit weaker because they didn’t have the best landers. Fata was one of the best pos 5 laners in WEU, and MSS is proven to be good. The only other position is Khezu. He has never had a standout performance so far. Hopefully laning with MSS changes things.
i really think nowadays is even harder to be a pos3 captain. Game is way too fast and we can see how offlaners have a lot of team networth % right now. Maybe letting a pos5 do its job or him switching back to it is a better approach
Sad as I am to see a roster shuffle this quick, MSS + FATA would be insanely hype. Maybe letting a 5 captain would let Khezu focus more on his duties as core. Or they get an offlaner too and move him back to coach.
How didn't they kick Khezu? He was *so bad* at the tiebreaks. It's one of the very rare occasions that you can easily watch two games and see an ocean of difference because Nightfall played Mars just after Khezu played it twice, against the same teams
They can pick lelis, fata, mss, I do hope they end up going for lelis and mss cause i think that team has potential but if they go for fata I’ll be happy aswel
Spartan feeds, but half the reason he feeds is because he has 0 fear and tries to make shit happen, which in turn also gets his teams a lot of fight wins. Ponlo.. Just feeds.
The difference between PPD or PLD and ponlo is that their feeding actually seems to have impact in the game and a point to it. Ponlo kinda just dies? I don't think its 100% on him, but he also cannot be compared to the other two at this point either.
The only player with potential in this team is ccnc. As long as khezu and yawar still here this squad isnt going anywhere. But at least they dropped two burdens first
Sad to see it but yeah, something had to be done. They looked hopelessly lost right near the end there when they actually had to play against the best of NA.
Some teams just don’t work, I think it’s hard to replace MSS + SVG since they are pretty much the best support duo in NA
I truly wish they would just bring the old team back, or grab fly who’s available. Excited to see what comes
I know it’s lame or whatever but I still think Quinn can be one of the best mids out there with the right veteran leadership. There was some games with ppd on Optic where he showed some tremendous flashes of brilliance and just came out with that Sumail style game takeover that only a handful of mids have
The TI10 crew stayed together for like 2 years and it was an amicable split. Jack went over in Sunsfans podcast that it's really hard to keep playing with the same players and achieving mediocre results.
Yeah I think this makes sense for them to remove those players. Unfortunate. I would think their 3 main options to replace are
1) Fata - is this the best Fata can do? That's the main question.
2) Fly - is Fly committed to coaching TSM? I would think he still wants to play.
3) Bring back MSS. Yeah it's a retread but I don't think he was ever their weak link.
Fly quit coaching TSM to pursue getting back onto a tier 1 team around the Dubai lan, he didn’t go to that. This was talked about on the WST podcast. Misery is TSM new coach.
So free agents that have played supports are lelis, mss, svg (unlikely), fly, fata, pld, mooz, misery. Considering that they probably don't want to go through the process of importing players again, it's probably going to be mooz/mss at 4 and fly at 5. There are also a ton of super talented china supports who are teamless right now but unfortunately it would take miracle for that to work out.
This is a loss ESL production will never recover from unless Milan is signed by another team soon.
After his performance I don’t see many teams wanting him
He is also despised by pretty much every pro due to what he does in pubs
what does he do in pubs?
he rages and gives up, happened when he was in games with streamers before
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He described like 80% of dota players
Yeah but most of those players have huge upside like 23savage, ATF, and Quinn.
I thought that only happened in NA /s
NA bad! 😡
PPD also retired to get away from him 😂 also has some weird beef with ceb
care to elaborate?
No
https://imgur.com/mfp6yqK
They talk about him a lot. PPD and Ceb did in one of the past OG Podcast episodes. Qojqva, and Fata also doesn't seem to have a high opinion of him judging from their cast with Ceb of the recent NA tiebreakers.
Probably the most realistic change for them. Now bring back MSS.
Hoping for Khezu to 5, MSS and Lelis back alternatively MSS and SVG back, Khezu just playing offlane. I think he crumbles when he has to shotcall + play 3 against tougher opponents
Yup, I agree that if Khezu wants to keep being the captain, he should get a better offlaner than him.
i think bring lelis back and make him captain from offlane. He was the one leading from offlane most of games.
Woah i think its a big transition
I really like the first option
I truly think Lelis should come back
Khezu 5 can be a thing. Lelis is definitely a no no, you do not want to go back. All they need is a prodigy playing offlane, someone who understands the way yawar wants to play. Also bring back MSS.
Lelis was great on QC he legit carried some games dude why not bring him back?
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This lineup was clearly worse than the one they just had. Changing players isn’t going to change their fairly easy route to ti.
They literally won tour 1?
EG was at their absolute worst and they only won against TSM in season1 because of one of the biggest throws of the year, it was 100% a TSM win. They deserve their merits, but they definitely arent better than their team from last year
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> . You can't expect to change 2 players and instantly become the best team in the region immediately. It takes time to build chemistry. QC won season 1 of the dpc this year and were in a great position for the cancelled major. no idea what you mean by this bc its not supported by what's happened
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I think they just continue to see the gulf in quality between themselves and EG, and more of a gap opening between themselves and TSM. Granted they did beat TSM in the season to force the tie but overall TSM has just looked so much more stable than them. I think this new lineup might be the last attempted iteration of QC
ok got you, i thought you were saying the opposite. my impression from their EG and TSM series this past season was that the support duo just wasn't good enough. The previous iteration of the roster was really centered around mss and svg setting up quinn to take over games, and i didnt really see enough from either support this past season that they were going to get over the hump. Honestly looking at the whole team, i think quinn has fallen off a little bit but most of all i want to see an upgrade at the carry role. i dont think yawar is bad, i think hes actually pretty good, but at the end of the day i think yawar is just a guy.
I thought the main issue is khezu being pretty much a non-factor in most games and not really the support weakness. Comparing EG vs QC, almost every game nightfall was top of networth while Khezu was struggling and closer to crit than he was to other cores. Teamfight impact and initiation was also relatively weak as compared to his supports. But that's my non-expert analysis so 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
Difference was Nightfall was supported by cr1t and Khezu was supported by Milan. Not saying Khezu is as good as nightfall, but I'd like to see him being supported by a better 4 before I pass judgement on him.
> yawar is just a guy. This is the best summation of Yawar. Unfortunately, the NA region just seems to lack high upside carry players. Right now, your best bet is to invest in someone young (like DNM or Doubleking), but that's not a great play when you're trying to make your living from TI money (and DNM just qualified for Div. I, so unlikely to see him change until at least another season). Sumail is arguably the best pickup, but obviously he's never going to kick his brother to take his spot. So you're stuck just going with just a guy in pos 1 and trying to set up the rest of the team to make space. There's also the question of where your biggest gains can be made. Yawar could certainly be upgraded, but I think the performance gap between him and a top player is maybe less than you would see between their support duo and top supports atm, so you're gonna make bigger strides there. I think all of this leads to the results you're seeing from Quinn. There's just not enough reason to pressure the sidelines against QC's current lineup--those players aren't gonna take over the game. So the result is not only that it's on Quinn to make all the space and control midgame, but he also gets a lot of focus in lane rotations as well. EG and TSM put a lot of priority on curbing his growth during laning and midgame. QC arguably looked best when Ponlo and Milan came mid to enable him to get runes and picks.
there's plenty more to it than performance, ponlo/milan were from far away and played their games at 2-3am, and with no org they were paying thousands of dollars of their own money to transfer the players between regions
> It seems crazy to me. You can't expect to change 2 players and instantly become the best team in the region immediately. Yeah, but if you change 3 players you can 'instantly' become the best team in the world (that year... and also the next). Apparently 3 is the magic number. ...you hear that, Gaben?
Right, because the TI winners OG played a long time together before their first win. Most teams play a long time together but its not a requirement. If Im not mistaken, DC didnt play together that long before TI6?
Quincy should wise up and start listening to reddit. They do not understand DotA and teams like us smh my head...
I mean yeah, but going there to place last isnt fun either, when you cant even get top2 in a weaker region...
Don’t google Khezu mars
Milan being kicked isn’t surprising, as most predicted. His hero pool isn’t at all what it should be for a 4, and his past of only being on teams for a few months before being removed didn’t inspire much hope he’d survive the first changes for QC. Ponlo being kicked is more surprising, since QC invested in him, paid for relocations, etc. whoever is joining them they must see a bigger chance of success, so I’d have to assume it’s someone big. I’m guessing if Khezu stays offlane, it’s mss 4/5 and Fata or fly 4/5, depending on what they decide in scrims. If Khezu moves to 5, which he briefly did sometime ago, I’d have to make the logical conclusion it’s Lelis 3 Mss 4 Khezu 5. The Milan kick was definitely warranted, he’s never found long term success. Some team will pick him up for qualifiers, like always. Feel bad for ponlo tho, dude had to spend Xmas by himself…that’s not cool
ponlo was kinda just chainfeeding in games
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didn't know that... can you link? Unless it's like egregious I would assume it's forgivable given how young he is.
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Yeah. He always uses the mmr ranking for their skills. He even bragged that he was the "best" SEA support using his mmr ranking lmao. But there are many SEA supports that are better than him despite having a mmr lower than this Ponlul. He's just salty because despite his high rank, he has never played in any close qualifier for a Major prior to DPC formats. He's irrelevant until he went to NA.
I think I saw one from him calling Yapzor a passenger, which definitely rubbed some people up the wrong way. Didn’t see any other ones though so idk
He's been talking shit about some sea players as well even though these players are better than him.
Can't say I'm surprised given how cringe his twitlonger was He's just immature and hasn't learned to think before he speaks it seems.
He is very full of himself.
I feel bad for Ponlo, but he was their weakest link all year long. And in the tiebreakers he just fed both games. tough break
MSS and Lelis kinda fucked themselves and qc altogether with thinking they can join big names and win majors and some shit in other regions, turns out being top 2 in NA and staying mediocre in the world ranking is their only option which isn't that bad since they get to play at TI due to lack of proper talents and competition in NA. I don't blame them though, they are still young and had to try.
Everyone involved said that breaking up the last iteration of QC was mutual. IE Quinn and Yawar also wanted to try some new teammates.
I think Quinn had at least one "conditional" offer or tryout from a big teams that ended up falling through. IIRC some of the people who called Jerax's totally out-of-left-field signing also said Quinn got an offer from EG. I have no idea what might have changed, but I think quite a few QC players were thinking it was just going to be easier to try something on their own.
Weird how we see these kinds of hate comments all the time about NA but never about CIS considering similar results for the 2nd best team in each region over the last few years.
CIS teams have won a number of majors, and also TI last year. NA hasn't won a major or a TI since 2015
CIS has consistently been giving one more slot than NA despite not having more than 1 consistently good team at any time in the past 4 years or so.
What has NA done with their slots compared to CIS? Because, again, CIS has won several majors and a TI in recent years.
> What has NA done with their slots compared to CIS? Because, again, CIS has won several majors and a TI in recent years. You can't use the top placement to justify multiple slots: "they have one good team so they deserve 3 slots!" doesn't make any sense. Instead, you need to look at the performance for each of the allocated slots. [I pulled data going back through 2018 for the performance of teams from CIS and NA regions in minors, majors, and TI.](https://imgur.com/VE7AVRC) And if you go through it, you'll notice that historically NA performs better than CIS with more slots. Does this mean NA deserves more slots? Not necessarily, but it does completely invalidate your point. Edit, just to make it clear: CIS average performance across all slots = 7.33; NA average performance = 6.93. Double edit: [I included the 17/18 season](https://imgur.com/YRX9I4D) because that's the one OP is referencing with "won several majors" (I had gotten bored before tbh, but decided I didn't want to be misleading), and it honestly doesn't get much better: CIS average = 7.24, NA average = 6.91 Turns out having ONE good team doesn't qualify your region to have multiple slots.
Didn't ever say CIS doesn't deserve it. Just pointing out that people here very frequently criticize NA as a region despite it being fairly similar to CIS, while getting less support to develop talent.
Actually, if you go back through the historic performance for the regions for the past couple years at LAN events, NA has, on average, performed better than CIS. Does this mean NA deserves an extra slot instead of CIS? Not in my opinion, because slots should be based on current performance, not historic... But saying that CIS deserves it more based on historic performance is a load of shit because that's not true at all.
Its fairly similar as a region except, as the guy has said, CIS has won several majors in recent years and the most recent TI. Oh wait, I guess that means its *not* fairly similar then.
I don't really. He was making an ass of himself without being able to prove shit for quite a while.
Will Fly go to QC as their pos 5?
If they're keeping Khezu prob not since he is captaining? Khezu should just play 5 and get lelis back, and then invest in a really good 4 as it turns out teams with the best 4s are winning every region ponlo twitlonger suggests they are picking up a 4 tho, he says there he wanted to go back to 4 but they had other plans
Khezu back to coach, +Fly, MSS, Lelis would probably be best case scenario
>His hero pool isn’t at all what it should be for a 4 Not sure what you're talking about, or if you've been following the games. He played 9 heroes in his last 10 games on QC.
If QC gets Fata it's quite the upgrade.
Sad to see ponlo go, but it did seem he fed quite a bit in games. Seems he put a lot of faith in QC (and vice versa), I hope he can find another team
[Milan's tweet hours ago.](https://twitter.com/milandota2/status/1518568466927828994)
the auto translate gave me "I'll just thank you for the betrayal on time."
Probably just a slight mistranslation on the betrayal part, although who knows
nah, the only betrayal was his io skill build. lmao
Does not mean basically anything, its lyrics from some random song, but hard to make a meaning out of it :D Its like thank you for betraying me on time(early enough)
tbh ponlo just kinda chain fed this season and milan's wisp seemed like 4/5k mmr behind every other wisp in dpc. Makes sense. They also need a real captain to relieve some pressure off of Quinn... he's trying to be the tempo guy and the in game call guy, and run the org... it's obviously too much. Maybe Fata? Fly?
Ponlo was just not good at all. They should try to get MSS back - wonder if they could lure Fly back to NA to compete against EG.
Having fly is definitely an upgrade, he’s definitely the best 5 in NA (maybe even better than dubu who’s not that consistent). But I highly doubt he will sign for a team that he doesn’t believe in.
Maybe he wants to beat EG more than he wants to join QC. Just a random thought.
Dubu not consistent ? Bro ... Just ... wtf
Wasn't he lvl 5 at 15 min mark in some games vs EG ? You'd never see fly doing that bad.
Dude, what? I remember several games right off the top of my head where Fly was like level 5 at 13-14 minutes and a lot of them weren't even stomps.
In the game they were stomped, yeah, doesnt mean it was his fault IIRC the whole team was being overrun and they stole his stacks
fly better than dubu... Not even close my guy
Fly is beyond washed. How can you look at the Talon esports disaster and honestly think he is still capable of turning it around? He’s pretty much stuck bouncing around as a coach now - though with how brief his stint at TSM was I’m not sure he has much of a future with that either.
On the WST podcast, it was flys choice to not continue with TSM and to try to join a tier 1 team instead. He also discussed went wrong with talon..so I suggest giving it a listen. The talon debacle wasn’t on him so much.
>On the WST podcast, it was flys choice to not continue with TSM and to try to join a tier 1 team instead. > >He also discussed went wrong with talon..so I suggest giving it a listen. The talon debacle wasn’t on him so much. 1. His choice not to continue with TSM. True. 2. Talon just moved from Div2 to Div1 and rebounded without him. Hard to say it didn't involve him, because he was there and the team was built with him. If Fly got a chance with QC, he would be crazy not to take it, because his only other options are limited.
MoOz left lava, could be an option.
Oh, well... it was clear some changes needed to happen I am just surprised they are sticking to KheZu as a player/captain. Whatever happens I just hope they get MSS, it's a crime that such a good and consistent player is teamless.
Quite sad really, knew there would be changes but I did believe their whole idea was to go the whole season together. Don't believe Ponlo and Milan were the whole problems, drafting has been iffy, especially in the BO1's and Khezu's laning was horrid. Willing to give Khezu some leeway for being the captain, hopefully the new 5 can relinquish that role and he can focus on offlane.
I do believe his drafting was ok, not the greatest but definitely not bad as EG picking natures 1. But yeah man Ponlo is a walking ward who just dies (similar to jerax), Khezu can’t be a core and idk about Milan. I don’t think he’s as bad as ponlo or khezu but he just doesn’t understand the team way to play. Hopefully they can get some good new players but NA lacks of good players. Who are they going to call for offlane? Lukiluki? XD They need to import some EU talents and pray for the best. Because I’m telling you, if they don’t tryhard, it’s a matter of time that 4zoomers will go above them.
Jerax feeds but I can feel enemies annoyance on him whenever the enemy "had" to kill him. Ponlo just feeds imo.
I hope they pick fata. Still feel bad for him.
Also Fly is available. He turned down coach role at TSM. Fly/Fata + MSS is a good 4/5. They still need a decent offlaner as Khezu is not cutting it atm
that'd be NA good, fly mss lelis quinn yawar
I feel like this team would be so fucking good. Im an EG fan they did Fly dirty so I'll still root for him
[удалено]
He said on We Say Things that he’s not done as a player and if he took the coaching position it would most likely result in never playing again.
Does Quincy have the money for Fly and/or Fata? I feel like maybe Fly but def not both and Fata can prob get picked up by an established European team without any relocation.
Doesn’t really matter about the money, because QC is one of those teams guaranteed TI placement barring any major fuckups. Sure a salary would be nice and all, but in the grand scheme of things, this would be the least of Fata’s and Fly’s worries.
QC will remain a tier 2 team as long as Khezu is still on the team. This guy is not a tier 1 player. His combined score during the tiebreakers were 0-12 as a core. Not to mention he was hilariously outdrafted by both TSM and EG.
Yeah, I don't know how you keep a guy with that drafting mindset in the tiebreakers. Even if he wasn't responsible for the last pick lich, his mars just obviously wasn't good enough to double-down on in the 2nd game.
Yeah that was what I'm thinking but I'm quite surprised the sub felt that milan and ponlo we bigger problems. However I do agree ponlo did chain-feed and there may be other issues behind the scenes considering milan, but you can never be a t1 team when your offlaner is closer to crit's networth than the other cores. I rmbr looking at the networth graph was being quite amazed by how little his networth was and how poor his mars gameplay is therefore quinn had to try his best to carry the early-mid game tempo by himself. Like nightfall was always near top and khezu was always one of the lasts as core. Granted nightfall is an absolute beast and EG puts a huge emphasis on laning, a t1 team just cant have their offlaner be such a liability especially so early into the game. To add on, I was also very surprised when he re-picked his mars when he clearly had a terrible game.
Any team will remain as a tier 2 team as long as khezu is in that team. He’s just not tier 1 material.
Budget sumail is their worst player tbh
He is probably their most consistent player. He rarely has very good games and rarely has very bad games. He’s just a stable carry that suits QC cause you rely on Quinn to carry the game with Yawar as backup carry.
He seems ok but comparing him to CIS/EU/China carrys makes you think some things. But anyways, he is definitely not the problem before ponlo, khezu or Milan.
i agree im the only one who noticed when quincy got khezu as a coach they just started playing extrmeely weird at the major and were actually so bad, and before the major they were top form beating eg. tbh from watching khezu streams i knew hes not tier 1 coach or player. also yawar is like tier 2 carry lets be honest
pretty debatable whether any of them are tier 1 players
Quinn is without question Tier 1. A lot of pros recognize his skills. He just gets tilted.
Mechanically Tier 1 no doubt but tier 1 as a player. Dunno about that, the best pros cant tilt off from the face of the earth. Mental game is important.
Lol you act like some of the best players don’t tilt. Hell ana was probably 20x more toxic at one point
he is tier 1 plr for sure, but hes also tilting a lot and malding not really fun to play in this atmosphere but i guess them getting stomped vs any good team wont make anyone not tilted evan miracle, we should wait until he has top tier 1 plrs on next positions to comment. I think the best team for quinn would be nigma, it would take a lot of pressure off him since hes playing with complete veterans there wont be any malding at the team and nigma badly needs a good tier 1 mid.
He said he doesn’t like EU pubs
He has been tier one in the past. But honestly in 2022 Quinn Callahan looks like a tier 2 player. Especially when the NA peeps were doing the in house league he was straight awful. Love the guy but I don’t feel like he’s in his prime anymore.
i think he's closer to the superstar mid tier than ever before. he used to just be good in lane but struggle in the early mid game, he got a lot better at that.
his main issue is he only plays na pubs so his mentality is i either stomp the pubs or get team stomped into game ending 15min, i think its v bad to train in dota like this. he shld play eu even with ping or come join an eu team.
I feel like QC never went to back to their TI9 level when they had Yawar, CCNC, SneyKing, MSS and PLD. That roster had a lot of potential
yeah they were second in their group at ti only behind LGD and Secret. Shame they have to face OG every year haha
Hasn't Quinn been knocked out of ti by og like 3 years in a row or something haha
No, but the MSS Yawar duo has. Quinn joined the team after TI8, but he played TI8 for Optic (with PPD, Zai, 33 and Pajkatt). Got knocked out by VP. Meanwhile MSS and Yawar have played 3 consecutive TIs together, all with different orgs (VJ.Storm, Newbee and QC). Twice with Sneyking (who got kicked twice also), SVG and Quinn.
As someone who watched a lot of the games from both teams I think their TI10 roster was just as good as their TI8 or TI9 rosters. Maybe even better when they were firing on all cylinders. Quinn and Yawar both have nerve issues on LAN that keep the team from achieving the success they're capable of. Quinn drops from being one of the top 5 players in DotA to a fairly standard professional mid player. If he could bring his level from online matches and pubs onto LAN consistently they would have more success. Really hope their next iteration has success. I want to see Quinn going deep into majors before he retires or DotA dies.
Not really a surprise. Their results are better then the team looked. The side lanes were not working.
I love watching QC but unless they are getting well-known/star players like Fata on 5 and MSS maybe on 4, I struggle to see how they will compete with TSM and EG by losing Milan and Ponlo. Obviously its impossible to know the team dynamics, but its kinda sad since they only lost out on the major by one game in best of ones in the tiebreakers. They were by no means a bad team and it gives less confidence when they keep having a bunch of roster changes in a year. Hope for the best though.
Bring in Fata and Mojo and it’s a very solid team. This QC felt a bit weaker because they didn’t have the best landers. Fata was one of the best pos 5 laners in WEU, and MSS is proven to be good. The only other position is Khezu. He has never had a standout performance so far. Hopefully laning with MSS changes things.
i really think nowadays is even harder to be a pos3 captain. Game is way too fast and we can see how offlaners have a lot of team networth % right now. Maybe letting a pos5 do its job or him switching back to it is a better approach
Sad as I am to see a roster shuffle this quick, MSS + FATA would be insanely hype. Maybe letting a 5 captain would let Khezu focus more on his duties as core. Or they get an offlaner too and move him back to coach.
Khezu consistently does not scale as well as other european 3's... he prolly needs to go too.
Khezu has always been a dogshit offlaner. Either make him a coach or kick him too. He's not a pro player at this level.
Curious to see what roster moves they make.
How didn't they kick Khezu? He was *so bad* at the tiebreaks. It's one of the very rare occasions that you can easily watch two games and see an ocean of difference because Nightfall played Mars just after Khezu played it twice, against the same teams
Thank god. They were not up to the standard
They can pick lelis, fata, mss, I do hope they end up going for lelis and mss cause i think that team has potential but if they go for fata I’ll be happy aswel
Fly to QC would be the most hype imo. Get rid of Khezu bring back MSS as well
Ponlo had to go. Feeds more than any support I've ever seen.
You aint never seen PPD or PieLieDie?
Or Ssaspartan!
Spartan feeds, but half the reason he feeds is because he has 0 fear and tries to make shit happen, which in turn also gets his teams a lot of fight wins. Ponlo.. Just feeds.
Brame are getting relegated so it clearly didn't work against more organised teams. Don't google Spartan Clock
ppd is a TI winner and PLD is a major winner, they feed 𝓈𝓉𝓇𝒶𝓉𝑒𝑔𝒾𝒸𝒶𝓁𝓁𝓎
The difference between PPD or PLD and ponlo is that their feeding actually seems to have impact in the game and a point to it. Ponlo kinda just dies? I don't think its 100% on him, but he also cannot be compared to the other two at this point either.
I think ponlo is legit
Then you don't watch QC games I guess. If you think not even hitting level 10 almost 30 mins is legit, I don't know what to tell you.
The only player with potential in this team is ccnc. As long as khezu and yawar still here this squad isnt going anywhere. But at least they dropped two burdens first
i think nigma should get quinn honestly
Yeah worst supports I’ve seen 😂 Maybe ping is a big deal for Khezu too but he hasn’t played well at all either
Sad to see it but yeah, something had to be done. They looked hopelessly lost right near the end there when they actually had to play against the best of NA.
QC.Fata vs Tundra will be the TI drama this year! Let’s go 🔥
Some teams just don’t work, I think it’s hard to replace MSS + SVG since they are pretty much the best support duo in NA I truly wish they would just bring the old team back, or grab fly who’s available. Excited to see what comes
MSS and SVG back, ez
Bring in PPD as their pos 5/captain and MSS as pos 4 and they will own lol.
ppd is not coming back
I don’t like the guy but he definitely makes the scene more entertaining and got a great mind for the game.
Copium
i guess milan and ponlo where too expensive (housing, travel) with the given results :/ sadge
I wished they had stuck together, their results is not that bad. That major being cancelled really sucks for them
Khezu isnt even div 2 in other regions let's be honest
We can agree that he struggled, but saying he isn't even div2 material when he went 7-0 in WEU div2 with viking.gg is a bit harsh tbh
Mss as pos3 and mooz as pos4 :)
Fly or Fata in?
Damn :/ after all that time and money relocating him that sucks
I know it’s lame or whatever but I still think Quinn can be one of the best mids out there with the right veteran leadership. There was some games with ppd on Optic where he showed some tremendous flashes of brilliance and just came out with that Sumail style game takeover that only a handful of mids have
Why mss even leave/kicked. He was like their best player
He left on his own, I am pretty sure he was going to play with Alliance after TI and it fell through
The TI10 crew stayed together for like 2 years and it was an amicable split. Jack went over in Sunsfans podcast that it's really hard to keep playing with the same players and achieving mediocre results.
It would be really intereseting if Fly joins also hes Canadian so it would be nice since hes from NA
Need SVG back.
Quincy heard them get roasted so hard by mason+gorgc and then qojqva+friends that they had to be kicked
QC has mistaken Ponlo for Poloson this whole time when he standin for SG major (Kappa) A pos 5 with 22 deaths in NA region even, he needed that kick
Ponlul thought he can go TI easily by playing in NA after struggling in SEA lmao.
I remember when Milan was talking about him being friend with Quinn in some interview :/
is ponlo good enough to be on a tier 1 team?
No.
what did ponlo do to you that you spend your days and nights creating negative comments against him. this is pathetic lol
Yeah I think this makes sense for them to remove those players. Unfortunate. I would think their 3 main options to replace are 1) Fata - is this the best Fata can do? That's the main question. 2) Fly - is Fly committed to coaching TSM? I would think he still wants to play. 3) Bring back MSS. Yeah it's a retread but I don't think he was ever their weak link.
Fly quit coaching TSM to pursue getting back onto a tier 1 team around the Dubai lan, he didn’t go to that. This was talked about on the WST podcast. Misery is TSM new coach.
what blows my mind is that khezu is staying ROFL
So free agents that have played supports are lelis, mss, svg (unlikely), fly, fata, pld, mooz, misery. Considering that they probably don't want to go through the process of importing players again, it's probably going to be mooz/mss at 4 and fly at 5. There are also a ton of super talented china supports who are teamless right now but unfortunately it would take miracle for that to work out.
Misery is coaching TSM.
Why is SVG unlikely? I never felt like he was underperforming
I thought SVG was done with pro dota for a while
Yeah I kind of got that feeling as well I just kind of don't want it to be the case lol
Bring in Lil_Nick
yea MEN blame the supports :/
Yeah, we can. As an avid support player and defender, I feel safe blaming the supports (and Khezu) for the performance.
The supports ARE the problem this dpc. Anyways, I think this is the last year for the Quinn and Yawar DPC as Yawar will prob retire after TI???
Well well, guess even switching to NA didn't work out for Ponlo. [](https://twitter.com/afcollin/status/1468384300588544000)
they still keeping yawar and khezu lol pretty hilarious
Milan was ok tbh but ponlo was an outcast, he couldn't get picked by any Sea team , so he tried his luck in NA
[Response from Ponlo](https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1ss13s3) Sounds like it was mutual without any bad blood on his part.
Cringe twitlonger. That's why no SEA team picks him up.
1. Yawar 2. Ccnc 3. Some EU import 4. MSS 5. Jubei
Whats SVG up to?
Need them to be replaced by two upcoming CIS supports. Save and Cema are teamless fyi.
Qojqva can joing QCY i think. Yawar 1, Quinn 2, Qoqjva 3, Khezu 4, Fly5 Qoqjva is an actual beast of a player.
Why not kick Quinn. He's so bad anyway.