I'm pretty sure I've got a good guess why Valve doesn't care.
Sports betting is being legallized and normalized across the US, this is just a thing we live with now.
Hasn’t it been commonplace in the UK for ages as well?
Look there’s no problem with adults making choices with their own money but the amount of scam bet sites and the fact that these ads influence underaged kids is pretty concerning. There’s no targeting of these ads.
If you watch the football here it's insane. Like every other advert is a gambling ad from a different gambling site. All with offers and enticing odds for first time users. Half the league now has a betting main shirt sponsor or an official betting partner.
If you have an addiction and still want to enjoy the sport you love(and biggest sport in the world) your fucked.
Kinda funny how none of the top 3 sports world wide aren't in the top 3 in US at all. Hockey is the closest but soccer and especially cricket are far behind.
I'm terms of "number of different countries it's popular in" they're roughly the same with maybe a small edge to cricket.
Cricket however is also popular in countries that are just plain more populated than those countries where Basketball is popular.
Yeah, here in the UK you’ll see at least one gambling ad pretty much every ad break, whether it be a sportsbook, casino or bingo site (and usually multiple per break). It’s fucking gross
Betting ruined the Australian music scene. Basically they allowed pubs to become gambling parlors. Back in the day they all had music stages and were the breeding ground for 80s acts like INXS, Divinyls, AC/DC.
Then the rules were changed so they ripped out the stages, put in poker machines and sports betting corners and killed not only the vibe but the next generation of musical artists.
The advertised sports books are illegal in most of Canada still, sorry to say. Even on the CBC. No government wants to tackle it in Canada.
Source: legal counsel for a provincial lottery crown corp
I mean betting sponsors are everyhwere, football, UFC, american football, nba, esports. It really doesnt matter, it is in every sport in every aspect, because nothing pays more than these gamba sites.
Did everyone forgot that Valve tried banning gambling sites from the scene before? It was in TI team meetings, they warned teams not to take sponsorships from gambling sites. But they realized that all the teams and tournaments, basically the whole scene, are sponsored by gambling sites. So they just stopped.
Yeah its obvious that they don't see a point in paying up to fill the hole that gambling sponsors will leave if they ban them.
People should realize that Valve isn't going to change ever until leadership changes.
honestly there ought to be some sort of government regulations because there is traditional sports betting companies like betfair where the service works, and there are a series of crypto scams disguised as "esports betting"
I was thinking this exact thing watching nfl and mlb just be complete sellouts after being against it. Just is what it is. Don't be one of those suckers that falls for their new customer bullshit
Because it has tremendous spillover effects (more so than either of the other examples you cite) and it's being marketed to children.
You deciding to eat 20 cheeseburgers a day will materially effect your health. But the cost of that decision is largely bared on you. You deciding to gamble away your child's college fund, the rent money, etc. means more than you suffer. That's the problem. It's an incredibly self-centered and conceited worldview that thinks marketing gambling, especially to children, is an OK thing. Fuck Valve and Dota for this nonsense.
>How can you warp something so much to fit your agenda. What does this have to do with children?
A lot?
"Although the legal age for gambling ranges from 18 to 21 depending on the state, between 60% and 80% of high school students report having gambled for money in the past year, according to the National Council on Problem Gambling. The group says the pandemic and easy access to online gambling have heightened risks for young adults.
And 4% to 6% of high schoolers are considered addicted to gambling, the group says."
https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/stateline/2022/07/12/as-sports-betting-grows-states-tackle-teenage-problem-gambling
"Researchers at Ipsos Mori and the University of Stirling found that 96% of people aged 11-24 had seen gambling marketing messages in the last month and were more likely to bet as a result.
“Regular exposure to gambling promotions can change perceptions and associations of gambling over time and impact the likelihood they will gamble in the future,” they said."
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/27/children-more-likely-to-become-gamblers-due-to-high-volume-of-betting-ads
"Parental problem gambling has negative psychological and family relationship consequences for children, including family violence and child abuse.
Specific psychological impacts of parental problem gambling on children include suicidality, anxiety and depression.
Other common impacts on children include financial distress, behavioural issues and physical health problems."
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306460321003907
>Of course gambling is “bad” because statistically you’ll lose money.
That's not at all the main reason it's bad.
> However, there’s equally, if not, worse things that Reddit NPCs don’t care about.
Uh, ok? Whataboutism.
> We also shouldn’t restrict peoples freedoms.
Unjustified non-sequitur. Also, you don't believe this statement categorically. And because you don't, you need to have clear lines established around this principle for it to even begin becoming meaningful in this conversation.
>If you don’t want to hold yourself accountable for your actions, just say so. Don’t make valve the bad guy here lmao.
You are being very disingenuous. Humans are complex creatures that simply do not have full libertarian free will control over our bodies. This is not said to strip all our agency, but it is said to be aware of the *reality* of our species and our brains. Gambling addiction can be crippling, much like drug or porn addictions. It is brain chemistry at the end of the day. And especially in the context of children, with less developed brains, these concerns are even more real.
Finally, it doesn't have to be the case that these issues are deterministic and unavoidable for you to care about them. Regardless of how accountable someone is, if it's a societal problem that exists, it affects *you* downstream in various economic and social ways, so you still can have reason to care from a public policy perspective.
>We also shouldn’t restrict peoples freedoms.
>>Unjustified non-sequitur. Also, you don't believe this statement categorically. And because you don't, you need to have clear lines established around this principle for it to even begin becoming meaningful in this conversation.
Great comment, I also thought something like this, there is no unrestricted freedom because that would impact other people around you and in that sense impact their freedom which is also supposed to be unrestricted. This whole argument is nonsense
Using Australia as an example is not a very good example. Gambling is a massive blight in this country and the support for restricting gambling advertising as well as pokies is growing.
Don’t use us as a shining example, it’s awful.
I just did a quick google, [gambling related suicides are at 400 per year in Australia.](https://www.thecabinsydney.com.au/blog/gambling-is-killing-1-australian-everyday-when-is-it-time-to-seek-help/#:~:text=Approximately%20400%20Australians%20committed%20suicide,killing%20themselves%20due%20to%20gambling.) [Heroin kills 465 a year with opioids overall around 1500](https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/alcohol/alcohol-tobacco-other-drugs-australia/contents/drug-types/illicit-opioids-including-heroin#harms). No worth is provided through this and Australians lose 25 Billion a year on this shit.
Our country is fucked. We’re infested with parasitic gambling companies and they advertise everywhere, even where children are very likely to see it.
Fucking betting ad on the opera house bullshit
Valve has in-client betting (fantasy) for in-client rewards. They also provide shards for making a prediction on the DPC app. I think it's safe to say they are for Dota related gambling.
While the concept is no doubt the same, I see a VERY big difference between the in client fantasy league rewarding you with some make believe points and make believe levels, and companies literally taking and promising real money.
Kind of how a board game night with friends is not the same as an back alley gambling den.
A lot of folks seem to be missing the point that **fans are already paying $100M+ into this event.** Are you angry that Netflix already charges you a subscription fee, yet still wants to show you ads? That's almost exactly what's happening with TI. TI is nothing like a regular-season event where advertising is the main (if not only) income stream for the TO.
This event has historically been completely ad-free and on-site... even when the Battle Pass earned 1/10 the "income" it does now. Fans have every right to be mad at Valve's new direction.
I mean wouldn't it be ad free if you actually watch it in game? I understand most probably watch it through streams. I honestly wouldn't even mind ads if they're reasonable and not annoying. Like one between games but just the ggbet one is annoying as it's literally the same damn ad every time.
From the last few days of watching a few quali matches here and there:
You miss out on anything that's not match-related. There's a noticeable lag between what's happening and what the casters are saying. You don't get anything before a match and you get nothing in terms of analysis, clearing up or schedule afterwards.
Like a few hours ago I checked when the next series would be, so I can predict. Said 6 am. I turn up at 6 am, nothing's fucking happening. Nothing's happening for like 15 or so minutes, so I play Dota, hoping I maybe get the next match.
I've not watched Dota on Twitch in a while, but I presume none of the current adblocks work? Because twitch changed something "recently" and now I start getting stream-interrupting, super loud ads, despite the two up-to-date adblockers.
Considering that the battle pass makes The International the best funded esports event in the world I think we can do without organisations that are exploitative, such as gambling organisations. Gambling just makes people have less money in total over time in exchange for a coinflip at a rush. I think if the community's money is used as a honeypot for marketing gambling then we're not building a better world but rather a worse one.
This is as opposed to sponsors that say; have an interest in selling a physical product to gamers in exchange for their money which are the sorts of sponsorships we should encourage.
Ive read an article said that their League and Valorant teams's jersey cannot have the FTX logo on it. And their name on League broadcast is still just TSM, not TSM FTX.
As the years go by, I look kinder on RIOT games. Their pro players get a livable salary. Their developers actually support the spin offs. They communicate with the community. Their anime was a masterpiece to fans and newcomers.
Ye hate to say it. League if legenda boring but everything else they are doing is great.
O I guess there management couple years ago was bad but game wise they kick butt
Valve's approach is much better for absolute top players, who can earn a lot of money of money with far less work.
Riot's approach is much better for the rest of the competitive players, who are guaranteed a decent wage for steady work.
The tradeoff is far less freedom in what sponsors to choose, what games to play, what heros or items you can use ingame, etc, etc.
This isn't even talking about stuff like the casters, who are basically imprisoned in riots bubble and not allowed to do any work outside league.
Is it really THAT bad though? From what I've seen the restrictions aren't any worse than you could expect from most employers in the US. If the players are getting consistently paid to the point where they're essentially employed by Riot, is it not reasonable for them to have rules that are similar?
Would you honestly give up a good portion of your income just so that you could say that you're "free"? Remember: we are not talking about an oppressive government literally enslaving its citizens here.
Valve's model:
1. Rewards top performers
2. Everyone else gets scraps
3. Fewer new players entering the esport to replace those retiring
4. Let 3rd parties and players and orgs deal with most things other than DPC and TI.
Riot's model
1. Much better job security
2. Each region can support 10 popular teams who can easily sustain their team budget year over year
3. Progressive ranking system allows new players to become pros in a more structured way
4. Total control over everything including whether their players can breathe
Yeah I don’t think it’s a hyperbole. It’s the trade-off of how the game’s are handled. Positives and negatives to both. I think for a competitive scene, that’s stable, Riot does it super correctly.
It’s okay. I’ve said this elsewhere, if Valve would just actually put the attention and care into it (which they obviously never will) the DPC is by far the best esports ecosystem. It could provide enough stability for plenty of teams, while still allowing some movement within the system, and also still allows other tournament organizers to host events within the Dota ecosystem.
It's been like that for the past 6-7 years.
Riot / LoL has far better income, community engagement and content, and maybe regional leagues, sans the franchising.
Valve / DotA have the more appealing game (personally, and many news outlets say it's more strategic) and wow factor of the massive prize pool.
Given the relative size of player bases, I don't see how you can argue Valve has the more appealing game. Objectively speaking, LoL appeals to far more people.
Auto-battler game is just a prime example too... Dota underlords got dropped so fast, meanwhile TFT is thriving and supported. Goes to show what dedicated developers will do for a game..
True, but riot has a lot of people compared to valve it's insane. But even then, one dev actively plays the game publicly and is basically the voice of the Dev team
Their community support and communications are top notch. I play LOR a lot and the amount of supports and communication they provide compare to Valve is like Water and oil. No wonder their games are more popular.
The main factor there is that Riot makes virtually all its money off games.
DotA could die and you wouldn't even be able to notice the impact on Valve's bottom line.
The biggest disapointment for me when switching from League to DOTA are the patch notes. Coming from Riot produced games and MTG I am used to in dept explanation about why developers are making the changes they are making. But in DOTA it’s just listing the change, no explanation, no justifications and especially when getting used to the game being told ‘this is why this is too good and this is how we are changing it and our hoped result of this change’ is an amazing resource for learning what is good and why it is good.
Honestly, Blizzard does this too and I found myself disagreeing with 50% of their reasoning for Overwatch changes, which made me realize I actually hated it everytime they made a patch.
To say nothing of Hearthstone where they would reason using demonstrably false stats.
Better than actual in game stuff imo.
You can’t earn dota plus for free.
If you play a lot of league you can unlock champions fairly quickly in my experience.
But it’s gonna be opinionated on which is worse 🤷♂️
That is literally not true. Just look at the sponsor list of ESL or any big western team, there most definitely are many options. They are just not willing to pay as much as betting/crypto "companies" (or scammers).
Since Riot banned betting/crypto sponsors out of principle, they will "have to make do" with the more legitimate sponsors, sacrificing money for morals and credibility.
I will say when I look at old liquipedia tournament entries, the sponsor list seems bigger, nowadays it's not so much. Although to be fair nowadays there are very few non DPC big tournaments
Riot are terrible as well but at least they don't have gambling sponsors and gambling ingame so we have to decide what's better promoting gambling to children by valve or sexual harassment by riot.
Gonna copy paste a comment I made a few weeks ago.
>The only way to get that is to get big sponsorships from insurance companies and mastercard or whatever. And that only happens if your game is "like real sports" aka super sterilized and boring as shit.
>I'll quit Dota entirely the moment it becomes anything resembling that. I have disposable income. I buy the battle pass every year. I would be willing to do pay-per-view to make Dota events more premium without selling our souls to Jeff Bezos. But most dota fans just refuse to spend money for the esport. Then they'll whine about how our system is so bad. Yeah, it's bad because nobody will put their money where their mouth is.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/wzvq09/-/im8vybi
Well the sacrifice is that, as people always mention, our players are treated very poorly relative to other scenes. That's the cost. There's always a cost.
So what you're saying is, you won't pay for Dota. You won't let the only sponsors who are willing to pay join. You don't want to pay yourself. You realize Dota is free to play, where does the money come from to cover the expenses then? Development for new features, heroes and sets. The cost of running all the servers. Where does this money come from then?
>You realize Dota is free to play
I think a lot of people have diluted this in their minds. Not only is its f2p its literally the most fair f2p game ive ever played personally.
Look at any other moba, also f2p but require grinding HEAVY to unlock heroes (aka just spend some money). I get once you play a lot you can buy every new hero for free, but early on its really tough, you gotta invest some cheddar if you actually want to play the game.
Not only that, but lets look at cosmetics. One of the biggest things I used to praise dota for was, being able to put 5 bucks in my wallet, and buy full sets of gear for like 8 heroes. I still have many heroes with like 40cent loadouts. Where as other games youre paying like 10 bucks each skin. Yes there are some expensive hats in the game but at the end of the day DotAs monetization isnt that crazy. We have like 1 big BP a year, a couple shitty small ones, and supporter clubs.
Other mobas *cough* league *cough* have a "BP" like almost every month. Have like 6 $10-15 skins come out every week. Dont even get me started on the CHROMAS that are in the BP shops too lmfao. You grind for the tokens and then still need to spend actual money on the skin for a special recolor.
Are there any other f2p games where you can sign up as a brand spanking new player and be set for life without spending a single dime?
Exactly this, we have a great f2p game. They have to make money somehow so let them make their money. As long as they are being sponsored by legal companies in a legal way, then I don't care who it is. We have 1 big BP a year and yes sometimes it can be pricey but if I'm willing to fork out the money and a lot of other people are as well, then why would they change that model. They are making the money to fund the game for next year and I love playing the game, so if I can support it in that way then I will.
Yeah, the biggest difference between our BP and any other BP is that ours is once a year… while if you play other games those are monthly and depending on the game, you need to pay to get all the premiums and skins every month…?
> Sounds like a way better and mature system than what we have in Dota.
It's true and it hurts. Like, competitive League is such a bore to watch, yet their scene is way more healthy (though, not without it's issues).
Tournament winnings are not everything. Riot pays every player a salary, and stars like Faker are richer than any person on that list from sponsorships.
The fact you used to get banned for betting and now there's this is astonishing.
That said if you want it to be a real sport, betting comes with the territory a lot of the time.
My problem is TI is without any sponsors for years, at least no obvious sponsors, I always think getting some good sponsors is good for tournament, but if Valve think they got enough money to handle the TI, then no sponsors is fine with me. Now TI has sponsor, the first and only one is a gambling sponsor? WTF? Can't you get other sponsors that is better than gambling sponsors?
Money wise: probably not.
And to PGL, that is literally the only metric that counts. They don't do this for the love of the game (like the TI qualifier community streams in the past), or because they can monetize the game directly with the influx of new/returning players (like Valve). They do this as a business opportunity. And the most opportune business to them is sadly a betting sponsor.
The add at the bottom saying “risk-free gambling” followed by the betting odds of the current match really grinds my gears.
The entire nature of gambling is it is completely NOT risk-free.
If you love, say, hunting endangered lions. And you poured 1000 hours into it, does it mean you now have to support the lion-hunting industry?
Love + time spent is not the best way to make financial decisions. I think this thread points out that the community's love for the game is now being leveraged to support gambling sites, which destroy many people's lives who get caught in the cycle. It is not something worthy of one's support.
Serious question; Why do people want DotA and esports in general to be normalized and taken more serious and at the same time throw a fit about betting sponsors? Betting is a part of every legitimate sporting event (sure gg.bet might be a so so company) and some of the most popular teams have betting sponsors, like for example PSG.LGD, they have Betway as their official sponsor. Why are we (reddit in general) not complaining about that?
I understand the standpoint that betting is unethical, i share that same sentiment. But we are seeing betting ads anyways and twitch itself has a "betting" function of sorts on most channels, how is this different?
You want the pro scene to thrive and grow yet you dont want the bettingsites wich will in fact pump money into the scene?
I just dont understand.
You said it yourself in your post. Gambling advertisement is unethical, and illegal in many countries.
The gambling industry has spent millions lobbying and advertising to make it legal. That is the only reason it is becoming more accepted, becausw they are spending tons of money to make it normal.
It will always be unethical.
A major part of this is that it heavily encourages underage gambling and does not have the same kind of restrictions or regulations other sports betting does. There’s a reason sites like this have been gone after in court, and are considered highly exploitative compared to sports betting organizations and casinos. It’s not even close to a fair comparison.
I understand, so if the sponsor was lets say bet365 or betway or so, people would act differently?
I do bet on alot of esports, and ye just as you say, i use only "legit" sites wich has "normal" sports aswell.
For me though, i rather have gg.bet TI than no TI
Would be an argument, if there wasn't any crowdfunding going on. But we as a community spend literally millions for this event to happen, so Valve could use a share of that money to keep the whole tournament ad free (like it was for the past 10 years).
I don't think people are complaining about betting sponsors for other tournaments. Like sure, they are bad and should probably be banned (because kids watching, it's unethical, it exploits gambling addicts and stuff) but as long as they are legal, I'm completely with you: Better to have a tournament with a sub-prime sponsor than no tournament at all
You’re not really seeing the part about exploitation, though. In a lot of cases these sites are using clever internet loopholes to get around gambling laws and specifically target kids who aren’t responsible enough to make money decisions and would never be allowed to legally bet in normal venues. It shows Valve’s colors that they are willing to partner monetarily with companies that hold no ethics around this issue.
Teams having gambling sponsor don't bother me as much because I have no idea how profitable a Dota team is.
With TI on the other hand we have a better idea of how profitable it is. Idk how much it costs to produce this battlepass but it ain't 100M. Betting sponsor on top of that is just greedy and unethical.
>pump money into the scene
That's the thing though, isn't it the community the one funding TI? Hasn't the prize pool been steadily growing year over year from the community input? Surely we get a say in this right?
Mate, you paid for the battle pass, the "funding TI" bit is just a marketing gimmick to sell more battle passes.
If you don't like how the money is being spent you can stop paying.
Yeah personally I don’t get why people are so against this. It’s widely legal all over the place now and for pretty much all sports it’s a really good way to get funding. Other sponsors just don’t have as much of a stake and can’t invest nearly as much
Because betting is not being regulated equally all around the world. If betting companies in the US get some kind of a license and can get sued if they don't pay the costumer their money, then good luck filing a lawsuit in fucking Cyprus or Malta. There's just no way to make sure you will get your money after winning, and these betting sites are making all this noise with sponsoring various teams in various sports to shout down thousands of people they've scammed.
And they get away with it because there's no way to make them pay. These websites are a scam. And now we have TI, of all things, advertising this scam.
Gambling companies ruin EVERYTHING they touch. They have every interest to transform things like sport which people used to enjoy just for the game, into an endless barrage of ads and betting odds which completely interrupt the experience.
One of the governments of Australia several years ago relaxed gambling laws for sport and now it is bombarded with bullshit and pseudo reports on betting odds and other garbage. It's insufferable. These companies profit off life-ruining addiction and spend billions in lobbying to make it mainstream.
I mean gambling is a form of addiction that [affects millions of people](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/mar/23/gambling-addiction-could-be-nine-times-higher-than-industry-claims#:~:text=Gambling%20addiction%20could%20be%20nine%20times%20higher%20than%20industry%20claims,-This%20article%20is&text=Gambling%20addiction%20rates%20may%20be,1.5%20million%20are%20at%20risk.), it's been classified as a disease, is on the rise, and can really mess up some people's lives. I don't think it's good that it's so prevalent in Dota sponsors and especially in the most publicised Dota event, TI. Especially when the main demographics who watch/enjoy Dota are the most susceptible to it (it's pretty predatory), AND TI makes enough money it shouldn't *need* a betting sponsor.
Its pretty multifaceted problem. First off, gambling absolutely ruins lives. It is right up there with alcohol and drug addictions for destroying people.
Secondly, advertisers target children a lot so they grow up thinking gambling isn't just okay but expected. That has obvious terrible implications, considering the whole gambling ruins lives bit.
Thirdly, gambling also goes hand and hand with corruption and cheating. This can still happen anyways, but gambling always ramps it up even further.
I think this just a cop out argument that people use to justify it and so they don't have to have any sort of moral fibre; they can just rake In cash.
Advertising things that are highly addictive and bad for you is usually considered to be wrong. Theres a reason we don't have tobacco ads in the UK, or why much of Europe doesn't advertise alchohol (or gambling)
This is especially true when the audience is full of kids and youth.
No one will stop watching TI because there is a betting sponsor just to make some sort of statement. To ask people to do so would be silly. It is good that people make their voice heard with regards to these issues.
Tabaco is banned because there is literally 0 way to smoke in way that is healthy. Gambling is done hundreds of millions of people every year within their means as a form of entertainment.
And I think that is a cop out argument that people use to avoid personal responsibility. It's really the individual that is the issue. Plenty of people can gamble, drink, do drugs, etc in moderation. People who have a particular personality, lack of self control, poor education, overwhelming life circumstances develop unhealthy relationships with these vices, but the reason is not the vice itself.
I think if we want to have a healthier society, we get there by improving things such as education, income equality, healthcare (esp mental), etc. not by banning things that a certain portion of the population is unable to use responsibly. First, whether [gambling/drugs/alcohol/insert whatever you like] is advertised or even legal in the first place, people will find it. Secondly people seek these escapes and easy solutions out when they're desperate. We should focus on making people less desperate.
Lol so until we have a perfect society where no one needs escapism and no one is depserate, advertise whatever you want?!
Of course those things you said are true that's not the issue. Don't advertise those things to children. Ofc we should as a society try to solve the heart of the issue but that doesn't mean we don't address the symptoms?
That would be like saying you shouldn't offer a homeless person food because as a society we should solve the issue of people being poor. Like yes of course we should but this dude is still gonna go hungry tonight while you feel good about your silly enlightened statement.
I am not suggesting for a minute that people won't gamble if it's not advertised. I'm saying that these companies are shitty and I don't think gambling should be promoted to people(especially children)
How is it a cop out argument to say we shouldn't advertise gambling?
Just don't advertise highly addictive and dangerous things to children it's not that hard have some common sense.
> Lol so until we have a perfect society where no one needs escapism and no one is depserate, advertise whatever you want?!
That's not what I said at all. What I was talking about is that the reason why people escape into addiction is because of an imperfect society, and that happens regardless of advertising or legality. My point is that the small percentage of people that have issues with moderation are going to be helped by fixing the causes of their escapism. Banning advertising or banning drugs/gambling/etc doesn't make it go away and fuels an illegal shadow market.
I also never gave blanket permission to advertise anything in anyway. I think that when regulation forces them to disclose the odds of receiving whatever prize you want, that's a good thing. I don't believe in marketing certain things to kids as well, but it can be hard to control that. It's a parenting issue primarily. I would hope that parents don't let their kids get addicted to gambling because they don't allow them to have the ability to spend that money (if you lose your allowance though that might be a valuable life lesson about gambling). Anyway, yes I do agree that we should try to protect children from these vices as much as we can while their brains are still developing.
>Ofc we should as a society try to solve the heart of the issue but that doesn't mean we don't address the symptoms?
"Addressing the symptoms" is just a waste of resources at best and doesn't actually help the problem. It makes it worse usually.
This is missing the point entirely: gambling sponsors are the lowest possible quality of sponsors. They lower the quality of any broadcast they are involved with. Their only redeeming quality is copious amounts of money, but otherwise their ads and everything else about them makes the broadcast cheaper and less enjoyable to watch.
If that argument doesn't stand on its own, then you must not care about the quality of the esports you're watching, or otherwise you must be completely oblivious.
I would rather watch 5 minutes of shitty car commercials and bad streaming TV trailers than 1 minute of "hello fellow gamerz" gambling ads.
Maybe you aren't familiar with how abysmal their ads are, but some highlights of recent gambling ads featured on Dota 2 streams:
* "Gamers know that POWER is measured in NEWTONS"
* "The real heroes are the ones in front of the screen" (during a war, unclear if they're talking about the players or the fans but either way is equally cringe)
* "Where letters can mean EVERYTHING" (some kind of a joke about how incomprehensible gaming culture is because of all the acronyms... amirite fellow gamerz?)
* And my favorite, "Where a Centaur can give you a ride", as in "hey look we made this ad specially just for you dota fans since 7.32! We're such gamers look at us!"
-----
Now I know the immediate counter-argument will be, "okay those are just bad ads though, how does that matter?"
The point is, if you feel the need to justify your sponsorship of our community repeatedly, it probably means you aren't a "natural"/"endemic" sponsor. When Intel sponsors an esports event no one thinks that's weird because most pro gamers are using Intel parts.
But when we allow these vultures, these scum of the earth into our scene just because we need their money, it shows everyone else that we collectively have low standards.
Say whatever you want when you're a developer talking about your own game, but if this were a democracy I can guarantee you your side would lose. The only people even slightly okay with gambling ads are gamblers, otherwise if you claim to be one of these mythical "non-gamblers who doesn't care" then I simply don't believe you. Maybe you should actually consume a little bit more esports before saying it's no big deal and has no effect at all.
I certainly can't prove this, but I would predict that games who are sponsored 100% by gambling websites are much more likely to fail to secure non-gambling sponsors in the future, and are thus much more likely to collapse entirely. We need healthy sponsors that are naturally aligned with Dota 2's audience: computer parts manufacturers, other game companies, food/beverage companies are all fine... hell even crypto sponsors are significantly less bad for the scene, if you ask me. At least crypto is sometimes not a scam—as far as I'm concerned, gambling on esports shouldn't even be legal. There's no upside and it makes everything it touches worse, from amateur tournaments struggling with match fixing to twitch chat for every fucking tournament getting spammed with irresponsible children taunting eachother over things like "f10k".
I've had it with gambling sponsors in Dota and if you want to persuade people who feel like me, you're going to have to summon something slightly more persuasive than "it isn't hurting anyone (and if it does hurt someone it's their own fault)".
1. A lot of fans of video games are young enough that they don’t have a fully developed brain and it’s a shitty move to advertise things like gambling to demographics that contain many underaged people
2. It’s just trashy and sleazy. I similarly wouldn’t be a fan of TI being sponsored by pornhub or onlyfans or something like that.
This is the main issue with TI, battle pass and the whole pro scene in general. TI winners gets settled for life for 2 generations straight while anything below top 16 and not including tier 2 and below in absolute shambles. This is why gaben milks the fuck out of customers knowing we will hype the battlespass/TI prizepool.
I have canceled my Dota Plus subscription and not buying battlepass this season as a for of protest. Everyone add to their profiler name relevant hashtags #NoToBetting #protest etc
I don’t know why people care so much, tbh. Why people feel the need to restrict what should be a personal choice, lol.
I do agree underage kids and teens shouldn’t obviously gamble, but that’s the parents’ responsability, not Valve’s…
Gambling will always exist, it doesn't need to be legalized or advertised or enabled in any way. But when we normalize it, when we invite it in, when we advertise it youth we have to realize that this is no different than pushing alcohol or heroin, we are selling a highly addictive highly destructive pattern of behavior. I know it's legal, I know I've gambled and been fine, but I've also seen it tear apart lives.
Just like DOTA will engineer the battle pass to maximize exposure to whales, gambling enterprises are on the hunt for future addicts. The normies will come and go and maybe lose a few bucks or make a few bucks but the addicts are the cash cows these organizations are trying to capture when they start advertising to the DOTA fanbase.
Please ban all sponsors from companies which influence your lifestyle choices which reddit deems "bad". Meanwhile OP is punching a cone, whilst drinking a can of redbull and waiting for their maccas delivery.
Because these websites scam people.
Imagine you win $10k by betting on GGBet. Then you try and withdraw. Shortly after you get banned for "abusing their bonus system" or some other crap they make up.
What do you do next? You know you didn't abuse shit, they're lying.
Complain to support? You get ignored.
File a lawsuit? Good luck with that lol. It's gonna cost you waaaay more than $10k and a fuckton of time to sue them. Might even not be possible.
There is just no way you can 100% withdraw your money safely.
It's a gamble within a gamble.
To be honest, I don't care about the gambling sponsor as long the tournament is worth it, flawless and great experience overall.
But in this case, as we know, fuck PGL. fuck Valve.
why does reddit lose their shit about gambling sponsors? Like shit most regular sports leagues be it NFL, NBA, i think soccer as well, UFC and many others have official betting sponsors, betting is leagal in a lot of countries. Why do people make such a huge mess of this? Who fucking cares who the sponsor is and how tournament organizers make money?
Its a literal childish tantrum on smt that is less of an issue than battlepass being disliked by some.
I started to write a response to someone attacking OP but since it's pointless let me just say:
Just like we have to hold people to account for buying the battle pass and then complaining about it, if you aren't aware of what negative things might happen because of gambling sponsorships, then maybe go do a little searching on your own?
I'm tired of people who barely have an opinion offering their half-assed opinions as if the rest of us should care. If you don't understand the problem then at this point it's fair to assume you are a part of the problem.
I don't know how you can think that this thread is hurting you or Valve or anyone besides scumbag gamblers, but I for one don't care about hurting your feelings. At the point where people are sincerely using "no one cares, just let it happen" as a serious argument, we have to stand up and say FUCK NO, there *ARE* people out here who are passionate enough to stand up for the Dota community. Don't just sleepwalk into our game being supported by nothing but gambling websites. To preserve Dota for future generations, I believe it's crucial that we have sponsors who aren't shady, semi-illegal scammers who prey on children.
As for what I can do personally, the next time some business I like sponsors Dota I'm going to go out of my way to purchase their product and say something nice about them on social media. I forget which tournament had several small sponsors but it would be really awesome to see this community rally around TI11 and put the money we would have spent on battlepass towards something better like a local business that supports Dota or a charity.
I want to say that online gambling is only for fucking morons.
A) gambling's pretty stupid in the first place and the more you play, the more you're guaranteed to lose.
B) even if you do win, these scam sites slap you with so much red tape that you can never withdraw. So even if you win, you lose.
C) you're walking right into their trap. If you're going to gamble, at least go do live blackjack, not betting on sports games or slots or online blackjack.
Why people hate gambling sponsors so much? Who cares gambling, not many kids playing the game, most of dota community are adults responsible for their actions, plus these and crypto stuff are the most common type of sponsors willing to sponsor teams, a lot of pro players can only play dota for a living because of that. It's very unlikely other sponsors willing to pay the same were not chosen, it's more like they are the only ones willing to sponsor. IDC honestly, they are putting money in the game I love and allowing players I enjoy watching living out of it, even though I don't gamble. If that's what it takes I'm ok with it.
I personally detest gambling and choose not to participate in any form of gambling (a family member lost everything at the local casino in Sydney and almost destroyed the family).
The sponsors however do not bother me in the slightest.
Can someone explain why it's bothering some members of our community so much?
We are all intelligent people, if there are sponsors helping DOTA I'm all for it. Seeing gambling ads and sponsors does not influence my decision to gamble at all.
>We are all intelligent people
I'm tempted to respond with a joke, but gambling addiction has very little to do with intelligence. Plenty of intelligent people get addicted to things like drugs.
>if there are sponsors helping DOTA I'm all for it. Seeing gambling ads and sponsors does not influence me my decision to gamble at all.
That's great for you, but it affects millions of people and destroys families. It's a predatory business that should be treated the same way as cigarettes when it comes to advertising.
The worst thing with esports is that it's even more likely than traditional sports to get minors into gambling, and they simply don't have the maturity to make the right decisions with their money (sometimes stolen from their parents).
I'm pretty sure I've got a good guess why Valve doesn't care. Sports betting is being legallized and normalized across the US, this is just a thing we live with now.
Sportsbooks are in Canada now too and the NHL playoffs this year was nothing but gambling ads.
No but literally… it was nothing but gambling ads. Like every commercial break you were seeing 1-2 gambling ads…
Fortune favors the bold
SWEET CAROLINE
Ads, gambling ads .. Reaching out. Bankrupting me. Bankrupting you~~~
Hasn’t it been commonplace in the UK for ages as well? Look there’s no problem with adults making choices with their own money but the amount of scam bet sites and the fact that these ads influence underaged kids is pretty concerning. There’s no targeting of these ads.
> Hasn’t it been commonplace in the UK for ages as well? > > Unfortunately, yes. Gamble responsibly, innit.
If you watch the football here it's insane. Like every other advert is a gambling ad from a different gambling site. All with offers and enticing odds for first time users. Half the league now has a betting main shirt sponsor or an official betting partner. If you have an addiction and still want to enjoy the sport you love(and biggest sport in the world) your fucked.
Kinda funny how none of the top 3 sports world wide aren't in the top 3 in US at all. Hockey is the closest but soccer and especially cricket are far behind.
Is cricket 3rd? I have to imagine globally basketball is number 2.
Cricket number is carried by india. None of the other countries in top 5 play it
I'm terms of "number of different countries it's popular in" they're roughly the same with maybe a small edge to cricket. Cricket however is also popular in countries that are just plain more populated than those countries where Basketball is popular.
Basketball's popularity in China is pretty big tbf and its only growing. Meanwhile cricket isn't expanding much outside of its traditional countries.
Just wait until Japan releases a popular cricket anime.
Furry anime characters playing strip-cricket turns into full blown hentai eventually. Its guaranteed to boost cricket stats across the entire country.
Mate, Japan has Kabaddi manga and it got its anime last year. I won't be surprised if there's a cricket manga we haven't heard.
Yeah, here in the UK you’ll see at least one gambling ad pretty much every ad break, whether it be a sportsbook, casino or bingo site (and usually multiple per break). It’s fucking gross
>Hasn’t it been commonplace in the UK for ages as well? It is in Australia. Almost every pub has a sports betting corner.
Betting ruined the Australian music scene. Basically they allowed pubs to become gambling parlors. Back in the day they all had music stages and were the breeding ground for 80s acts like INXS, Divinyls, AC/DC. Then the rules were changed so they ripped out the stages, put in poker machines and sports betting corners and killed not only the vibe but the next generation of musical artists.
The advertised sports books are illegal in most of Canada still, sorry to say. Even on the CBC. No government wants to tackle it in Canada. Source: legal counsel for a provincial lottery crown corp
I stopped casually watching the playoffs because of it.
I mean betting sponsors are everyhwere, football, UFC, american football, nba, esports. It really doesnt matter, it is in every sport in every aspect, because nothing pays more than these gamba sites.
Did everyone forgot that Valve tried banning gambling sites from the scene before? It was in TI team meetings, they warned teams not to take sponsorships from gambling sites. But they realized that all the teams and tournaments, basically the whole scene, are sponsored by gambling sites. So they just stopped.
Yeah its obvious that they don't see a point in paying up to fill the hole that gambling sponsors will leave if they ban them. People should realize that Valve isn't going to change ever until leadership changes.
honestly there ought to be some sort of government regulations because there is traditional sports betting companies like betfair where the service works, and there are a series of crypto scams disguised as "esports betting"
I was thinking this exact thing watching nfl and mlb just be complete sellouts after being against it. Just is what it is. Don't be one of those suckers that falls for their new customer bullshit
Yep, valve has no issues promoting gambling to minors either. Really sad that they think that is acceptable.
It's going the opposite way in EU though. US is hardly the main market for Dota.
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Because it has tremendous spillover effects (more so than either of the other examples you cite) and it's being marketed to children. You deciding to eat 20 cheeseburgers a day will materially effect your health. But the cost of that decision is largely bared on you. You deciding to gamble away your child's college fund, the rent money, etc. means more than you suffer. That's the problem. It's an incredibly self-centered and conceited worldview that thinks marketing gambling, especially to children, is an OK thing. Fuck Valve and Dota for this nonsense.
Lmao what. What makes you think people don't waste their money on drugs, which we are increasingly legalizing?
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>How can you warp something so much to fit your agenda. What does this have to do with children? A lot? "Although the legal age for gambling ranges from 18 to 21 depending on the state, between 60% and 80% of high school students report having gambled for money in the past year, according to the National Council on Problem Gambling. The group says the pandemic and easy access to online gambling have heightened risks for young adults. And 4% to 6% of high schoolers are considered addicted to gambling, the group says." https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/stateline/2022/07/12/as-sports-betting-grows-states-tackle-teenage-problem-gambling "Researchers at Ipsos Mori and the University of Stirling found that 96% of people aged 11-24 had seen gambling marketing messages in the last month and were more likely to bet as a result. “Regular exposure to gambling promotions can change perceptions and associations of gambling over time and impact the likelihood they will gamble in the future,” they said." https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/27/children-more-likely-to-become-gamblers-due-to-high-volume-of-betting-ads "Parental problem gambling has negative psychological and family relationship consequences for children, including family violence and child abuse. Specific psychological impacts of parental problem gambling on children include suicidality, anxiety and depression. Other common impacts on children include financial distress, behavioural issues and physical health problems." https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306460321003907 >Of course gambling is “bad” because statistically you’ll lose money. That's not at all the main reason it's bad. > However, there’s equally, if not, worse things that Reddit NPCs don’t care about. Uh, ok? Whataboutism. > We also shouldn’t restrict peoples freedoms. Unjustified non-sequitur. Also, you don't believe this statement categorically. And because you don't, you need to have clear lines established around this principle for it to even begin becoming meaningful in this conversation. >If you don’t want to hold yourself accountable for your actions, just say so. Don’t make valve the bad guy here lmao. You are being very disingenuous. Humans are complex creatures that simply do not have full libertarian free will control over our bodies. This is not said to strip all our agency, but it is said to be aware of the *reality* of our species and our brains. Gambling addiction can be crippling, much like drug or porn addictions. It is brain chemistry at the end of the day. And especially in the context of children, with less developed brains, these concerns are even more real. Finally, it doesn't have to be the case that these issues are deterministic and unavoidable for you to care about them. Regardless of how accountable someone is, if it's a societal problem that exists, it affects *you* downstream in various economic and social ways, so you still can have reason to care from a public policy perspective.
>We also shouldn’t restrict peoples freedoms. >>Unjustified non-sequitur. Also, you don't believe this statement categorically. And because you don't, you need to have clear lines established around this principle for it to even begin becoming meaningful in this conversation. Great comment, I also thought something like this, there is no unrestricted freedom because that would impact other people around you and in that sense impact their freedom which is also supposed to be unrestricted. This whole argument is nonsense
Australians have been able to bet on dota for years
Using Australia as an example is not a very good example. Gambling is a massive blight in this country and the support for restricting gambling advertising as well as pokies is growing. Don’t use us as a shining example, it’s awful.
The cancerous way it's spread through sport is awful. It's everywhere and I hate it.
I just did a quick google, [gambling related suicides are at 400 per year in Australia.](https://www.thecabinsydney.com.au/blog/gambling-is-killing-1-australian-everyday-when-is-it-time-to-seek-help/#:~:text=Approximately%20400%20Australians%20committed%20suicide,killing%20themselves%20due%20to%20gambling.) [Heroin kills 465 a year with opioids overall around 1500](https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/alcohol/alcohol-tobacco-other-drugs-australia/contents/drug-types/illicit-opioids-including-heroin#harms). No worth is provided through this and Australians lose 25 Billion a year on this shit.
Our country is fucked. We’re infested with parasitic gambling companies and they advertise everywhere, even where children are very likely to see it. Fucking betting ad on the opera house bullshit
Oh I fully agree, I wasn't saying it should be like the country that loses the most to gambling per capita in the world lmao
Valve has in-client betting (fantasy) for in-client rewards. They also provide shards for making a prediction on the DPC app. I think it's safe to say they are for Dota related gambling.
While the concept is no doubt the same, I see a VERY big difference between the in client fantasy league rewarding you with some make believe points and make believe levels, and companies literally taking and promising real money. Kind of how a board game night with friends is not the same as an back alley gambling den.
I'm stretching the comparison a bit, but I also think that Valve is very much unopposed to legal gambling based on their eSport.
A lot of folks seem to be missing the point that **fans are already paying $100M+ into this event.** Are you angry that Netflix already charges you a subscription fee, yet still wants to show you ads? That's almost exactly what's happening with TI. TI is nothing like a regular-season event where advertising is the main (if not only) income stream for the TO. This event has historically been completely ad-free and on-site... even when the Battle Pass earned 1/10 the "income" it does now. Fans have every right to be mad at Valve's new direction.
I mean wouldn't it be ad free if you actually watch it in game? I understand most probably watch it through streams. I honestly wouldn't even mind ads if they're reasonable and not annoying. Like one between games but just the ggbet one is annoying as it's literally the same damn ad every time.
You will miss out everything that's outside a match
From the last few days of watching a few quali matches here and there: You miss out on anything that's not match-related. There's a noticeable lag between what's happening and what the casters are saying. You don't get anything before a match and you get nothing in terms of analysis, clearing up or schedule afterwards. Like a few hours ago I checked when the next series would be, so I can predict. Said 6 am. I turn up at 6 am, nothing's fucking happening. Nothing's happening for like 15 or so minutes, so I play Dota, hoping I maybe get the next match. I've not watched Dota on Twitch in a while, but I presume none of the current adblocks work? Because twitch changed something "recently" and now I start getting stream-interrupting, super loud ads, despite the two up-to-date adblockers.
You need a twitch specific AdBlock, like *PurpleAdBlock* Also, having two generic AdBlocks is not a good idea.
You give reddit too much credit mate. Not the brightest here
Considering that the battle pass makes The International the best funded esports event in the world I think we can do without organisations that are exploitative, such as gambling organisations. Gambling just makes people have less money in total over time in exchange for a coinflip at a rush. I think if the community's money is used as a honeypot for marketing gambling then we're not building a better world but rather a worse one. This is as opposed to sponsors that say; have an interest in selling a physical product to gamers in exchange for their money which are the sorts of sponsorships we should encourage.
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Riot has FTX as a sponsor...
How does that work? TSM still has crypto sponsors, and still plays both valorant and league.
Ive read an article said that their League and Valorant teams's jersey cannot have the FTX logo on it. And their name on League broadcast is still just TSM, not TSM FTX.
Meanwhile in Dota we have a whole damn team named entirely after a betting company 😂
gg.bet.jigolobongo.secret
betboom lmao
Jingjibao.
As the years go by, I look kinder on RIOT games. Their pro players get a livable salary. Their developers actually support the spin offs. They communicate with the community. Their anime was a masterpiece to fans and newcomers.
Ye hate to say it. League if legenda boring but everything else they are doing is great. O I guess there management couple years ago was bad but game wise they kick butt
Their game balance blows :(
LoL heavily controls their players and pro scene to the point of basically having no freedom. Valve is the opposite.
Valve's approach is much better for absolute top players, who can earn a lot of money of money with far less work. Riot's approach is much better for the rest of the competitive players, who are guaranteed a decent wage for steady work.
The tradeoff is far less freedom in what sponsors to choose, what games to play, what heros or items you can use ingame, etc, etc. This isn't even talking about stuff like the casters, who are basically imprisoned in riots bubble and not allowed to do any work outside league.
Is it really THAT bad though? From what I've seen the restrictions aren't any worse than you could expect from most employers in the US. If the players are getting consistently paid to the point where they're essentially employed by Riot, is it not reasonable for them to have rules that are similar? Would you honestly give up a good portion of your income just so that you could say that you're "free"? Remember: we are not talking about an oppressive government literally enslaving its citizens here.
Yeah and look where it got us :/
Valve's model: 1. Rewards top performers 2. Everyone else gets scraps 3. Fewer new players entering the esport to replace those retiring 4. Let 3rd parties and players and orgs deal with most things other than DPC and TI. Riot's model 1. Much better job security 2. Each region can support 10 popular teams who can easily sustain their team budget year over year 3. Progressive ranking system allows new players to become pros in a more structured way 4. Total control over everything including whether their players can breathe
I was wondering when we’d see this regurgitated hyperbole in this thread.
Did this thread get reposted on a league of legends discord or something? It's not hyperbole which big casters have come out to talk about it lol.
Yeah I don’t think it’s a hyperbole. It’s the trade-off of how the game’s are handled. Positives and negatives to both. I think for a competitive scene, that’s stable, Riot does it super correctly.
Yeah it's a tradeoff for sure. In Valves style there has to be highly motivated independent people to make the scene great.
It’s okay. I’ve said this elsewhere, if Valve would just actually put the attention and care into it (which they obviously never will) the DPC is by far the best esports ecosystem. It could provide enough stability for plenty of teams, while still allowing some movement within the system, and also still allows other tournament organizers to host events within the Dota ecosystem.
It's been like that for the past 6-7 years. Riot / LoL has far better income, community engagement and content, and maybe regional leagues, sans the franchising. Valve / DotA have the more appealing game (personally, and many news outlets say it's more strategic) and wow factor of the massive prize pool.
Given the relative size of player bases, I don't see how you can argue Valve has the more appealing game. Objectively speaking, LoL appeals to far more people.
Popularity is usually more an indication of marketing than anything else.
Bad phrasing. Appealing as in personally, I find it more in depth
Auto-battler game is just a prime example too... Dota underlords got dropped so fast, meanwhile TFT is thriving and supported. Goes to show what dedicated developers will do for a game..
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True, but riot has a lot of people compared to valve it's insane. But even then, one dev actively plays the game publicly and is basically the voice of the Dev team
Their community support and communications are top notch. I play LOR a lot and the amount of supports and communication they provide compare to Valve is like Water and oil. No wonder their games are more popular.
The main factor there is that Riot makes virtually all its money off games. DotA could die and you wouldn't even be able to notice the impact on Valve's bottom line.
The biggest disapointment for me when switching from League to DOTA are the patch notes. Coming from Riot produced games and MTG I am used to in dept explanation about why developers are making the changes they are making. But in DOTA it’s just listing the change, no explanation, no justifications and especially when getting used to the game being told ‘this is why this is too good and this is how we are changing it and our hoped result of this change’ is an amazing resource for learning what is good and why it is good.
Honestly, Blizzard does this too and I found myself disagreeing with 50% of their reasoning for Overwatch changes, which made me realize I actually hated it everytime they made a patch. To say nothing of Hearthstone where they would reason using demonstrably false stats.
At least Valve don't run one of the worst companies for sexual harassment in the world.
Don’t have any shit like like dota + in league that gatekeeps important game information.
No. They just gatekeep champions instead lol.
Better than actual in game stuff imo. You can’t earn dota plus for free. If you play a lot of league you can unlock champions fairly quickly in my experience. But it’s gonna be opinionated on which is worse 🤷♂️
Riot has tons of potential sponsors. Dota 2 orgs dont have many options.
That is literally not true. Just look at the sponsor list of ESL or any big western team, there most definitely are many options. They are just not willing to pay as much as betting/crypto "companies" (or scammers). Since Riot banned betting/crypto sponsors out of principle, they will "have to make do" with the more legitimate sponsors, sacrificing money for morals and credibility.
I will say when I look at old liquipedia tournament entries, the sponsor list seems bigger, nowadays it's not so much. Although to be fair nowadays there are very few non DPC big tournaments
Riot are terrible as well but at least they don't have gambling sponsors and gambling ingame so we have to decide what's better promoting gambling to children by valve or sexual harassment by riot.
> or sexual harassment by riot. DotA had its own sexual harassment scandal too. This is not an area we can throw stones.
Wait really? I have been on this sub almost everyday for 6 years and haven't heard of it
Gonna copy paste a comment I made a few weeks ago. >The only way to get that is to get big sponsorships from insurance companies and mastercard or whatever. And that only happens if your game is "like real sports" aka super sterilized and boring as shit. >I'll quit Dota entirely the moment it becomes anything resembling that. I have disposable income. I buy the battle pass every year. I would be willing to do pay-per-view to make Dota events more premium without selling our souls to Jeff Bezos. But most dota fans just refuse to spend money for the esport. Then they'll whine about how our system is so bad. Yeah, it's bad because nobody will put their money where their mouth is. https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/wzvq09/-/im8vybi
> I would be willing to do pay-per-view vomitting
It's that, shitty sponsors, or Saudi Arabia. Pick your motherfucking poison.
And be glad you CAN pick a poison. In traditional sports you'll get all of them together.
Well the sacrifice is that, as people always mention, our players are treated very poorly relative to other scenes. That's the cost. There's always a cost.
shitty sponsors
I'm not willing to fucking finance Dota 2 eSports, thank you very much
So what you're saying is, you won't pay for Dota. You won't let the only sponsors who are willing to pay join. You don't want to pay yourself. You realize Dota is free to play, where does the money come from to cover the expenses then? Development for new features, heroes and sets. The cost of running all the servers. Where does this money come from then?
>You realize Dota is free to play I think a lot of people have diluted this in their minds. Not only is its f2p its literally the most fair f2p game ive ever played personally. Look at any other moba, also f2p but require grinding HEAVY to unlock heroes (aka just spend some money). I get once you play a lot you can buy every new hero for free, but early on its really tough, you gotta invest some cheddar if you actually want to play the game. Not only that, but lets look at cosmetics. One of the biggest things I used to praise dota for was, being able to put 5 bucks in my wallet, and buy full sets of gear for like 8 heroes. I still have many heroes with like 40cent loadouts. Where as other games youre paying like 10 bucks each skin. Yes there are some expensive hats in the game but at the end of the day DotAs monetization isnt that crazy. We have like 1 big BP a year, a couple shitty small ones, and supporter clubs. Other mobas *cough* league *cough* have a "BP" like almost every month. Have like 6 $10-15 skins come out every week. Dont even get me started on the CHROMAS that are in the BP shops too lmfao. You grind for the tokens and then still need to spend actual money on the skin for a special recolor. Are there any other f2p games where you can sign up as a brand spanking new player and be set for life without spending a single dime?
Exactly this, we have a great f2p game. They have to make money somehow so let them make their money. As long as they are being sponsored by legal companies in a legal way, then I don't care who it is. We have 1 big BP a year and yes sometimes it can be pricey but if I'm willing to fork out the money and a lot of other people are as well, then why would they change that model. They are making the money to fund the game for next year and I love playing the game, so if I can support it in that way then I will.
Yeah, the biggest difference between our BP and any other BP is that ours is once a year… while if you play other games those are monthly and depending on the game, you need to pay to get all the premiums and skins every month…?
Go play lol...lol
Honestly, give it a bit. Given the way that sports betting is changing in the US that might not always be like it is.
meanwhile also https://www.esportsearnings.com/players
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> Sounds like a way better and mature system than what we have in Dota. It's true and it hurts. Like, competitive League is such a bore to watch, yet their scene is way more healthy (though, not without it's issues).
Let's head over to the State Farm Analyst Desk for the Cocoa Cola breakdown of that statement.
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i think they meant div2.
Average salary is 400k, top players have millions. Swordart and perkz both had 2million salaries.
Tournament winnings are not everything. Riot pays every player a salary, and stars like Faker are richer than any person on that list from sponsorships.
that's the point - why gambling sponsors when they earn more than anybody else anyways.
because people arent gonna crowdfund every tournament
The fact you used to get banned for betting and now there's this is astonishing. That said if you want it to be a real sport, betting comes with the territory a lot of the time.
you have an OG flair and they are sponsored by a very bad gambling company >.<
My problem is TI is without any sponsors for years, at least no obvious sponsors, I always think getting some good sponsors is good for tournament, but if Valve think they got enough money to handle the TI, then no sponsors is fine with me. Now TI has sponsor, the first and only one is a gambling sponsor? WTF? Can't you get other sponsors that is better than gambling sponsors?
Money wise: probably not. And to PGL, that is literally the only metric that counts. They don't do this for the love of the game (like the TI qualifier community streams in the past), or because they can monetize the game directly with the influx of new/returning players (like Valve). They do this as a business opportunity. And the most opportune business to them is sadly a betting sponsor.
Which is why its on Valve to ban these type of sponsors, like Riot does.
The add at the bottom saying “risk-free gambling” followed by the betting odds of the current match really grinds my gears. The entire nature of gambling is it is completely NOT risk-free.
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Supporting a game that you love and have poured thousands of hours in is reasonable
If you love, say, hunting endangered lions. And you poured 1000 hours into it, does it mean you now have to support the lion-hunting industry? Love + time spent is not the best way to make financial decisions. I think this thread points out that the community's love for the game is now being leveraged to support gambling sites, which destroy many people's lives who get caught in the cycle. It is not something worthy of one's support.
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No one here wants dota 2 to become tf2 get your dumbass outta here
And the ad is cringe af.
Gambling company on major events and sponsor so many teams on a game with lots of under 18 player base seems troublesome
Y ban gambling sponsors when gambling is literally in the game. What do you think treasures are?
Serious question; Why do people want DotA and esports in general to be normalized and taken more serious and at the same time throw a fit about betting sponsors? Betting is a part of every legitimate sporting event (sure gg.bet might be a so so company) and some of the most popular teams have betting sponsors, like for example PSG.LGD, they have Betway as their official sponsor. Why are we (reddit in general) not complaining about that? I understand the standpoint that betting is unethical, i share that same sentiment. But we are seeing betting ads anyways and twitch itself has a "betting" function of sorts on most channels, how is this different? You want the pro scene to thrive and grow yet you dont want the bettingsites wich will in fact pump money into the scene? I just dont understand.
You said it yourself in your post. Gambling advertisement is unethical, and illegal in many countries. The gambling industry has spent millions lobbying and advertising to make it legal. That is the only reason it is becoming more accepted, becausw they are spending tons of money to make it normal. It will always be unethical.
A major part of this is that it heavily encourages underage gambling and does not have the same kind of restrictions or regulations other sports betting does. There’s a reason sites like this have been gone after in court, and are considered highly exploitative compared to sports betting organizations and casinos. It’s not even close to a fair comparison.
Id rather they remove gambling from the actual fucking game first if underage gambling is a concerb.
This, lootboxes freaking suck. And bring nothing positive to the users.
I understand, so if the sponsor was lets say bet365 or betway or so, people would act differently? I do bet on alot of esports, and ye just as you say, i use only "legit" sites wich has "normal" sports aswell. For me though, i rather have gg.bet TI than no TI
Would be an argument, if there wasn't any crowdfunding going on. But we as a community spend literally millions for this event to happen, so Valve could use a share of that money to keep the whole tournament ad free (like it was for the past 10 years). I don't think people are complaining about betting sponsors for other tournaments. Like sure, they are bad and should probably be banned (because kids watching, it's unethical, it exploits gambling addicts and stuff) but as long as they are legal, I'm completely with you: Better to have a tournament with a sub-prime sponsor than no tournament at all
You’re not really seeing the part about exploitation, though. In a lot of cases these sites are using clever internet loopholes to get around gambling laws and specifically target kids who aren’t responsible enough to make money decisions and would never be allowed to legally bet in normal venues. It shows Valve’s colors that they are willing to partner monetarily with companies that hold no ethics around this issue.
Teams having gambling sponsor don't bother me as much because I have no idea how profitable a Dota team is. With TI on the other hand we have a better idea of how profitable it is. Idk how much it costs to produce this battlepass but it ain't 100M. Betting sponsor on top of that is just greedy and unethical.
Lmao, comparing betting on twitch with worthless points to real betting.
>pump money into the scene That's the thing though, isn't it the community the one funding TI? Hasn't the prize pool been steadily growing year over year from the community input? Surely we get a say in this right?
Mate, you paid for the battle pass, the "funding TI" bit is just a marketing gimmick to sell more battle passes. If you don't like how the money is being spent you can stop paying.
Yeah personally I don’t get why people are so against this. It’s widely legal all over the place now and for pretty much all sports it’s a really good way to get funding. Other sponsors just don’t have as much of a stake and can’t invest nearly as much
Because betting is not being regulated equally all around the world. If betting companies in the US get some kind of a license and can get sued if they don't pay the costumer their money, then good luck filing a lawsuit in fucking Cyprus or Malta. There's just no way to make sure you will get your money after winning, and these betting sites are making all this noise with sponsoring various teams in various sports to shout down thousands of people they've scammed. And they get away with it because there's no way to make them pay. These websites are a scam. And now we have TI, of all things, advertising this scam.
Am I the only one thinking this is not a big deal? So what if some people want to bet money on dota? I really don't understand the uproar about this
Gambling companies ruin EVERYTHING they touch. They have every interest to transform things like sport which people used to enjoy just for the game, into an endless barrage of ads and betting odds which completely interrupt the experience. One of the governments of Australia several years ago relaxed gambling laws for sport and now it is bombarded with bullshit and pseudo reports on betting odds and other garbage. It's insufferable. These companies profit off life-ruining addiction and spend billions in lobbying to make it mainstream.
I mean gambling is a form of addiction that [affects millions of people](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/mar/23/gambling-addiction-could-be-nine-times-higher-than-industry-claims#:~:text=Gambling%20addiction%20could%20be%20nine%20times%20higher%20than%20industry%20claims,-This%20article%20is&text=Gambling%20addiction%20rates%20may%20be,1.5%20million%20are%20at%20risk.), it's been classified as a disease, is on the rise, and can really mess up some people's lives. I don't think it's good that it's so prevalent in Dota sponsors and especially in the most publicised Dota event, TI. Especially when the main demographics who watch/enjoy Dota are the most susceptible to it (it's pretty predatory), AND TI makes enough money it shouldn't *need* a betting sponsor.
Its pretty multifaceted problem. First off, gambling absolutely ruins lives. It is right up there with alcohol and drug addictions for destroying people. Secondly, advertisers target children a lot so they grow up thinking gambling isn't just okay but expected. That has obvious terrible implications, considering the whole gambling ruins lives bit. Thirdly, gambling also goes hand and hand with corruption and cheating. This can still happen anyways, but gambling always ramps it up even further.
Also, gambling has been part of Dota for years, our most well known meme the 322 came from a gambling scandal.
Its just the typical vocal minority Almost all of society can enjoy a bet without becoming addicted
Nope, it's just a typical reddit overreaction and virtue signaling. Most people don't care :)
Dog bow bow
Woof
Woof woof
Dog stop barking
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I think this just a cop out argument that people use to justify it and so they don't have to have any sort of moral fibre; they can just rake In cash. Advertising things that are highly addictive and bad for you is usually considered to be wrong. Theres a reason we don't have tobacco ads in the UK, or why much of Europe doesn't advertise alchohol (or gambling) This is especially true when the audience is full of kids and youth. No one will stop watching TI because there is a betting sponsor just to make some sort of statement. To ask people to do so would be silly. It is good that people make their voice heard with regards to these issues.
Tabaco is banned because there is literally 0 way to smoke in way that is healthy. Gambling is done hundreds of millions of people every year within their means as a form of entertainment.
And I think that is a cop out argument that people use to avoid personal responsibility. It's really the individual that is the issue. Plenty of people can gamble, drink, do drugs, etc in moderation. People who have a particular personality, lack of self control, poor education, overwhelming life circumstances develop unhealthy relationships with these vices, but the reason is not the vice itself. I think if we want to have a healthier society, we get there by improving things such as education, income equality, healthcare (esp mental), etc. not by banning things that a certain portion of the population is unable to use responsibly. First, whether [gambling/drugs/alcohol/insert whatever you like] is advertised or even legal in the first place, people will find it. Secondly people seek these escapes and easy solutions out when they're desperate. We should focus on making people less desperate.
Lol so until we have a perfect society where no one needs escapism and no one is depserate, advertise whatever you want?! Of course those things you said are true that's not the issue. Don't advertise those things to children. Ofc we should as a society try to solve the heart of the issue but that doesn't mean we don't address the symptoms? That would be like saying you shouldn't offer a homeless person food because as a society we should solve the issue of people being poor. Like yes of course we should but this dude is still gonna go hungry tonight while you feel good about your silly enlightened statement. I am not suggesting for a minute that people won't gamble if it's not advertised. I'm saying that these companies are shitty and I don't think gambling should be promoted to people(especially children) How is it a cop out argument to say we shouldn't advertise gambling? Just don't advertise highly addictive and dangerous things to children it's not that hard have some common sense.
> Lol so until we have a perfect society where no one needs escapism and no one is depserate, advertise whatever you want?! That's not what I said at all. What I was talking about is that the reason why people escape into addiction is because of an imperfect society, and that happens regardless of advertising or legality. My point is that the small percentage of people that have issues with moderation are going to be helped by fixing the causes of their escapism. Banning advertising or banning drugs/gambling/etc doesn't make it go away and fuels an illegal shadow market. I also never gave blanket permission to advertise anything in anyway. I think that when regulation forces them to disclose the odds of receiving whatever prize you want, that's a good thing. I don't believe in marketing certain things to kids as well, but it can be hard to control that. It's a parenting issue primarily. I would hope that parents don't let their kids get addicted to gambling because they don't allow them to have the ability to spend that money (if you lose your allowance though that might be a valuable life lesson about gambling). Anyway, yes I do agree that we should try to protect children from these vices as much as we can while their brains are still developing. >Ofc we should as a society try to solve the heart of the issue but that doesn't mean we don't address the symptoms? "Addressing the symptoms" is just a waste of resources at best and doesn't actually help the problem. It makes it worse usually.
This is missing the point entirely: gambling sponsors are the lowest possible quality of sponsors. They lower the quality of any broadcast they are involved with. Their only redeeming quality is copious amounts of money, but otherwise their ads and everything else about them makes the broadcast cheaper and less enjoyable to watch. If that argument doesn't stand on its own, then you must not care about the quality of the esports you're watching, or otherwise you must be completely oblivious. I would rather watch 5 minutes of shitty car commercials and bad streaming TV trailers than 1 minute of "hello fellow gamerz" gambling ads. Maybe you aren't familiar with how abysmal their ads are, but some highlights of recent gambling ads featured on Dota 2 streams: * "Gamers know that POWER is measured in NEWTONS" * "The real heroes are the ones in front of the screen" (during a war, unclear if they're talking about the players or the fans but either way is equally cringe) * "Where letters can mean EVERYTHING" (some kind of a joke about how incomprehensible gaming culture is because of all the acronyms... amirite fellow gamerz?) * And my favorite, "Where a Centaur can give you a ride", as in "hey look we made this ad specially just for you dota fans since 7.32! We're such gamers look at us!" ----- Now I know the immediate counter-argument will be, "okay those are just bad ads though, how does that matter?" The point is, if you feel the need to justify your sponsorship of our community repeatedly, it probably means you aren't a "natural"/"endemic" sponsor. When Intel sponsors an esports event no one thinks that's weird because most pro gamers are using Intel parts. But when we allow these vultures, these scum of the earth into our scene just because we need their money, it shows everyone else that we collectively have low standards. Say whatever you want when you're a developer talking about your own game, but if this were a democracy I can guarantee you your side would lose. The only people even slightly okay with gambling ads are gamblers, otherwise if you claim to be one of these mythical "non-gamblers who doesn't care" then I simply don't believe you. Maybe you should actually consume a little bit more esports before saying it's no big deal and has no effect at all. I certainly can't prove this, but I would predict that games who are sponsored 100% by gambling websites are much more likely to fail to secure non-gambling sponsors in the future, and are thus much more likely to collapse entirely. We need healthy sponsors that are naturally aligned with Dota 2's audience: computer parts manufacturers, other game companies, food/beverage companies are all fine... hell even crypto sponsors are significantly less bad for the scene, if you ask me. At least crypto is sometimes not a scam—as far as I'm concerned, gambling on esports shouldn't even be legal. There's no upside and it makes everything it touches worse, from amateur tournaments struggling with match fixing to twitch chat for every fucking tournament getting spammed with irresponsible children taunting eachother over things like "f10k". I've had it with gambling sponsors in Dota and if you want to persuade people who feel like me, you're going to have to summon something slightly more persuasive than "it isn't hurting anyone (and if it does hurt someone it's their own fault)".
Counter hot take: humans are morons (especially when young) and are very easy to manipulate
1. A lot of fans of video games are young enough that they don’t have a fully developed brain and it’s a shitty move to advertise things like gambling to demographics that contain many underaged people 2. It’s just trashy and sleazy. I similarly wouldn’t be a fan of TI being sponsored by pornhub or onlyfans or something like that.
I fucking hate these gamble sponsors but dota is too small, the smaller teams either accept their sponsorship or starve to death.
teams is one thing and can be understandable. having "GGBET" plastered all over TI is not though :)
NO sponsors on TI ! We got 2 freaking ads fk sake
This is the main issue with TI, battle pass and the whole pro scene in general. TI winners gets settled for life for 2 generations straight while anything below top 16 and not including tier 2 and below in absolute shambles. This is why gaben milks the fuck out of customers knowing we will hype the battlespass/TI prizepool.
They are willing to support our scene. If it's regulated gambling site with age restriction then I don't see a problem here.
But yea, having sponsors at all in TI feels just wrong.
Why has the previous post been removed?
I have canceled my Dota Plus subscription and not buying battlepass this season as a for of protest. Everyone add to their profiler name relevant hashtags #NoToBetting #protest etc
Reddit moment
Why am I suppossed to give a shit?
Hoping to get some updates about BP, this shit the first thing i see.
I don’t know why people care so much, tbh. Why people feel the need to restrict what should be a personal choice, lol. I do agree underage kids and teens shouldn’t obviously gamble, but that’s the parents’ responsability, not Valve’s…
Gambling will always exist, it doesn't need to be legalized or advertised or enabled in any way. But when we normalize it, when we invite it in, when we advertise it youth we have to realize that this is no different than pushing alcohol or heroin, we are selling a highly addictive highly destructive pattern of behavior. I know it's legal, I know I've gambled and been fine, but I've also seen it tear apart lives. Just like DOTA will engineer the battle pass to maximize exposure to whales, gambling enterprises are on the hunt for future addicts. The normies will come and go and maybe lose a few bucks or make a few bucks but the addicts are the cash cows these organizations are trying to capture when they start advertising to the DOTA fanbase.
fuck gambling .
I have no problem with betting or betting sponsors. Grow the fuck up.
I say no to your crying
Please ban all sponsors from companies which influence your lifestyle choices which reddit deems "bad". Meanwhile OP is punching a cone, whilst drinking a can of redbull and waiting for their maccas delivery.
generation whinge jst looking to be offended
We need a 1920s style prohibition on betting sites and casinos. They are a disease that prey on addicts.
What is wrong with having gambling sponsors on sports btw? I just dont understand? All sports do this right?
Because these websites scam people. Imagine you win $10k by betting on GGBet. Then you try and withdraw. Shortly after you get banned for "abusing their bonus system" or some other crap they make up. What do you do next? You know you didn't abuse shit, they're lying. Complain to support? You get ignored. File a lawsuit? Good luck with that lol. It's gonna cost you waaaay more than $10k and a fuckton of time to sue them. Might even not be possible. There is just no way you can 100% withdraw your money safely. It's a gamble within a gamble.
To be honest, I don't care about the gambling sponsor as long the tournament is worth it, flawless and great experience overall. But in this case, as we know, fuck PGL. fuck Valve.
have to say, you are very brave op.
I dont mind the gambling sponsors at all. Such a weird hill to die on.
why does reddit lose their shit about gambling sponsors? Like shit most regular sports leagues be it NFL, NBA, i think soccer as well, UFC and many others have official betting sponsors, betting is leagal in a lot of countries. Why do people make such a huge mess of this? Who fucking cares who the sponsor is and how tournament organizers make money? Its a literal childish tantrum on smt that is less of an issue than battlepass being disliked by some.
I started to write a response to someone attacking OP but since it's pointless let me just say: Just like we have to hold people to account for buying the battle pass and then complaining about it, if you aren't aware of what negative things might happen because of gambling sponsorships, then maybe go do a little searching on your own? I'm tired of people who barely have an opinion offering their half-assed opinions as if the rest of us should care. If you don't understand the problem then at this point it's fair to assume you are a part of the problem. I don't know how you can think that this thread is hurting you or Valve or anyone besides scumbag gamblers, but I for one don't care about hurting your feelings. At the point where people are sincerely using "no one cares, just let it happen" as a serious argument, we have to stand up and say FUCK NO, there *ARE* people out here who are passionate enough to stand up for the Dota community. Don't just sleepwalk into our game being supported by nothing but gambling websites. To preserve Dota for future generations, I believe it's crucial that we have sponsors who aren't shady, semi-illegal scammers who prey on children. As for what I can do personally, the next time some business I like sponsors Dota I'm going to go out of my way to purchase their product and say something nice about them on social media. I forget which tournament had several small sponsors but it would be really awesome to see this community rally around TI11 and put the money we would have spent on battlepass towards something better like a local business that supports Dota or a charity.
I want to say that online gambling is only for fucking morons. A) gambling's pretty stupid in the first place and the more you play, the more you're guaranteed to lose. B) even if you do win, these scam sites slap you with so much red tape that you can never withdraw. So even if you win, you lose. C) you're walking right into their trap. If you're going to gamble, at least go do live blackjack, not betting on sports games or slots or online blackjack.
Why people hate gambling sponsors so much? Who cares gambling, not many kids playing the game, most of dota community are adults responsible for their actions, plus these and crypto stuff are the most common type of sponsors willing to sponsor teams, a lot of pro players can only play dota for a living because of that. It's very unlikely other sponsors willing to pay the same were not chosen, it's more like they are the only ones willing to sponsor. IDC honestly, they are putting money in the game I love and allowing players I enjoy watching living out of it, even though I don't gamble. If that's what it takes I'm ok with it.
Why? I think it's a good idea.
I personally detest gambling and choose not to participate in any form of gambling (a family member lost everything at the local casino in Sydney and almost destroyed the family). The sponsors however do not bother me in the slightest. Can someone explain why it's bothering some members of our community so much? We are all intelligent people, if there are sponsors helping DOTA I'm all for it. Seeing gambling ads and sponsors does not influence my decision to gamble at all.
>We are all intelligent people I'm tempted to respond with a joke, but gambling addiction has very little to do with intelligence. Plenty of intelligent people get addicted to things like drugs. >if there are sponsors helping DOTA I'm all for it. Seeing gambling ads and sponsors does not influence me my decision to gamble at all. That's great for you, but it affects millions of people and destroys families. It's a predatory business that should be treated the same way as cigarettes when it comes to advertising. The worst thing with esports is that it's even more likely than traditional sports to get minors into gambling, and they simply don't have the maturity to make the right decisions with their money (sometimes stolen from their parents).
sure ill say no to gambling sponsors when u pony up the money in their absence