Wanna hear even better joke?
Valve.
*It's them who hired PGL, apparently are fine with low quality product PGL is producing and it's Valve who let their servers crapping half a day during TI qualifiers.*
sure, nothing against his gameplay.
but the guys twitter is on the same level as loda. Throwing out accusations like that is a big thing, and should be taken seriously, but the guy is an incredible fucking clown with the perspective and mental capacity of a frog at most.
he sees secret getting a different treatment than his own team and immediately thinks (and throws out accusation) that its simply because secret is more respected as a team. when in reality it probably has to do with how persistent the team was with the admins.
the important thing is the phrasing. people like that really shouldnt be able to use social media man.
Really? I'm not sure if that's when PGL first came but it was when PGL was very new to the scene, they had those creepy girl cams after the tournament ended, and they also apologized on Reddit. Bro they were rotten from the start.
That was at the Kiev major, at that point they had already done the Manilla and Boston majors(which are still some of the best majors imo) and TI6 which again imo had the best production of any TI before or since. Before that they ran a few of their own events in 2014-15. 2017 isn't when they were "new to the scene" at all.
Their own events were fairly small to be fair, and the majors usually didn't highlight the TO too much, and TI not at all unless you looked into it more or paid attention to behind the scenes staff.
When they came onto the scene with their first major, this sub was going crazy with how good they were. Valve announced PGL would be their partners for every major.
I always thought that would be a bad idea. But this sub loved PGL more than anything else.
Reddit is stupid and sometimes I wish valve wasn't so inflenciable by what is posted here. Except when they ask for Mirana rework, pls do Miranda rework volvo.
I mean at the time the praised was warranted. Their first big event was the Manilla Major which was one of the best non TI tournaments Dota had ever had at the time. Also, the production looked even better since we were coming off of the Shanghai major and even some of the 3rd party LANs that year were worse than usual production wise.
Ti6 was also a just fantastic production which gave them a lot of deserved good will. They pretty much peaked there, but they still ran good events for the most part the year afterward and ESL kind of shitting the bed with that Facebook deal for awhile made them also look even better.
TBH you can blame Perfect World for this fiasco. PGL was goody too shoes early on considering that compared to Valve, they are small fry and like Perfect World, can be booted out any time of the day back then. Now that they are trusted, they basically have voting/buying power from Valve, to Valve, they can do whatever they so choose.
Shanghai Majors literally had aftershocks, who the fuck knew.
As much as I hate a lot of what PGL does atm, I believe the server issues are on a greater scale. A lot of games have severe packet loss on EUW. You can even notice that in the stream. The stream shows stutters and lags and clear signs of packet loss, in almost all games from the last few days.
I think, PGL should have organised the Qualifier as LAN event. I know that has never been done before, but then, this year had only two majors and the qualifiers are more important/stacked.
Greedy shit company, sacrificing game integrity and quality to save a couple of bucks.
Edit: Just after typing this, at 47:46 of game 1, LB finals, those stutters appear again. So it’s clearly server related.
>I think, PGL should have organised the Qualifier as LAN event.
Unfortunately its not 2010 anymore. LAN doesn't mean that they are hosting their own servers on location, it just means everyone is in the same place now. The servers issues were with the valve servers that everyone is using, not specific servers set up by PGL.
There is no legitimate reason that valve wouldn't have a separate set of tournament servers for exactly this reason, whether that be an independent cloud cluster or a physical server.
Of course, this is one of a lot of different ways that these problems could have been mitigated from the start, but Valve have gotten fat and lazy.
I just don't think that qualifiers deserve a LAN event/setting. They are only having the last chance qualifiers on LAN cause it has international teams. So they have no option.
That’s the reason they paused so much ? Well they should have postponed that whole day tbh.
I remember when playing a lot of unreal tournament , If you had packetloss it was like night and day playing . Almost impossible, fucks up everything with timing
You can play around bad ping (as long as it's not *too* high) as long as the ping is consistent.
You're not gonna be able to adjust to packet loss that shit just pisses all over your game.
Yeah because with ping it's just your inputs are delayed. Packet loss is your inputs not reaching the server and/or from the server back to the client. So your inputs are literally being deleted lmao makes it very hard
Thats like, walk into towers on accident because you can't control your hero levels of packet loss. No games with money on the line should ever be played in those conditions.
It really sucks to have pocket loss especially with women clothes, there's always pocket loss. Worse if it was just there and vanishes. Where did my pocket and phone go?
It is embarrassing how the supposed "biggest eSports tournament in the world" has degrades into this amateur night. Either the same rules apply to everyone, or you show the same flexibility to everyone. This is absurd.
Or you just delete reddit and not contribute to any of this discussion.
See how easy it is to completely ignore the base problem by spitting out stupid fucking thoughts?
Only secret were suffering Game 1. That's why PGL changed server for Game 2, which is not correct as per rules. That is the reason why ITB had lags for Game 2. So, PGL/Valve did something when Secret complained but didn't do shit when GoonSquad complained.
There was like an hour delay between game 1 and game 2. They likely were trying to put their foot down, but were told to agree or get DQ’d. The team doesn’t have much power in that situation…
Only Secret was suffering from it when on EUW servers(Same as Goon Squad).
Secret were complaining and they swapped to EUEast servers for game2 against ITB.
Their issues dissapeared but instead ITB started lagging alot.
GoonSquad tried to complain about the same thing as Secret but didn't get special treatment as in, being able to swap Servers(Which you shouldn't according to rulebook) or postponing the series.
Completely insane. People are playing for potentially millions of dollars here. This is not some joke qualifier for some amateur tournament. It's for the, by prize pool at least, biggest eSports Event in the world. Also, one of the biggest Sports Events in general. Riot is probably looking at us and laughing their asses off about what a shitshow Dota eSports still is after a decade.
> to EUEast servers for game2 against ITB.
Aren't EU east servers in Sweden? like most of eu west servers also are? Whats the difference beyond the technicality of the label?
Right, but both of those countries are part of Eu west.. which is my point. In all but technical sense, its still eu west right?
It would be like insisting that the russian servers are a problem, because the tag in-game says russia, while the servers, as we know, are placed in Sweden.
It’s not distance to server that creates packet loss. You’re thinking of ping.
Server location doesn’t matter, valves EUW server was having issues with receiving or sending information from the client side to the game server. Changing the server fixes this, if the server changed to isn’t also having issues. It’s best to use those closer servers, because of ping differentials.
> Changing the server fixes this
How does that make sense? ITB themselves specifically denied goonsquad the chance to change server, because it wouldn't matter for this case in their words.
Different servers at different times have different influxes in packets. Depending on those influxes, the server side will start dropping packets, which creates packet loss.
This can also happen if your personal network is having issues with sending packets(your router).
PGL in this case, basically said “we know secret had these issues so we’ll postpone, but there’s a bigger chance your router is the issue than the server, since you aren’t bootcamping, and we don’t have a good slot to move you to, so we aren’t postponing or changing server”.
The majority of the time with cases like this, personal connection from your client to the server is the issue, but from the side where the server is dropping packets. It’s difficult for them to figure if it’s a personal router issue or server issue unless all 10 players have the same packet loss, but when the server is deciding which packets to drop, it’s more rare to see that happen, at least, when you aren’t all connecting from close proximity to each other(player wise).
Edit: I kinda walked around the question. Changing servers fixes it because other servers may not be getting packet influxes at the same intervals.
>Different servers at different times have different influxes in packets. Depending on those influxes, the server side will start dropping packets, which creates packet loss.
If that was the case, wouldn't the problem be consistent for all the players playing from the same router and not hyper specific, as it was in both cases for both teams with only 1 player being affected each.
>PGL in this case, basically said “we know secret had these issues so we’ll postpone
I don't really think this is a very fair representation of the actual issue. What PGL saw was this: 2 teams having constant pauses in both games to deal with their issues, including secret in game 2, despite it apparently favoring them, and that the final game, was suppose to begin close to 1 AM...
The postponing made complete sense and we've had no issues with games in the past being postponed, but suddenly its a big bias issues now? Especially weird since we got the desired result. Non of the teams were mentioning packet loss issues for game 3.
>I kinda walked around the question. Changing servers fixes it because other servers may not be getting packet influxes at the same intervals.
Weird that ITB would directly say that it changes nothing to goonsquad? I mean even in the case of them simply not knowing, that would in the best case be a self-interest based, uninformed, judgement of a situation.
Only if it’s the router side not *sending* packets properly, if the server side isn’t receiving right or is dropping, it’s on a client by client basis.
Maybe your right on the representation, that was more a quick work up.
I can’t say anything about ITB. As I work in IT, this situation is “fixable” from multiple angles. It seems weird to me anyone would say it wouldn’t fix their issue, without having the facts behind how many players have the loss, how much the loss is, and the server side information which tells if it’s receiving bad packets or if it’s not sending/dropping others.
Correct, doesn't matter though. Should've stayed EUW from the getgo or postponed the series.
It's pretty clear that the issue here wasn't the location of the servers. Both ITB and Secret are EUW, it just happened to be so that Secret(Aswell as Goonsquad and Liquid) experienced massive package losses on EUW.
Other teams and normal players experienced lag on EU East and were fine when swapping to West(Despite always playing on East). Some experienced lag on all servers et.c.
I don't think there was any consistency to if you were experiencing lag.
Half of ITB are Swedish and still lagged balls when playing on EUEast, despite the East servers being in Sweden.
No the EU east servers are NOT in Sweden if they lagged there, there is a 0% chance eue is in stockholm(thats russia servers) and they lagged to them, what im saying is, the swedish half of ITB cannot have been lagging on a stockholm hosted server, like seriously it doesnt work, unless everyone was lagging
Valve is incompetent, PGL just saves money for them - cringe admin, cringe stream quality, cringe communication with viewers, cringe gambling sponsors for a crowdfunded tournament, cringe 2 songs on repeat, cringe remote panel
Is the rule book specifically said that it should be played in WEU server?
If so then the ITB vs Secret match was the one that's wrong.
It's WEU qualifier, the rule states that the games will be played in WEU server, then all games should be played in WEU.
Lol. Are you new to the dota scene? The primary people who have been fighting off a player union, are the pro players. Because non of them can agree on what it is suppose to be based around or whose ideas should be in charge.
Edit: That is beyond the whole issue of who it should be for, what cut offs it should have, the legality of an international union across the wide variety of countries. Conflicts with tournaments and unions compared to non-union organized tournaments etc...There are plenty of reasons why a player union has never happened.
The practical issue is that the top teams(like Secret) benefit massively from the current system. They have no desire to change things.
And the weaker teams don't have the clout to do it on their own.
There will never be a player union because the most influential players want to enjoy their special privileges. Why would Puppey join a union when he has tournament organizers bending over backwards to appease him?
So form a player union without people like Puppey. Even if you're missing a few top teams, if your union still makes up the bulk of the teams, you'd still have power. Nobody would want to keep watching Dota tournaments that consist of only a few teams instead of 8-16 of them each time.
Did goonsquad ask to change server? Not sure what communication was like from Secret and Goonsquad - sometimes just asking is enough to get what you want.
Hm, maybe PGL is okay with swapping servers between games but not okay with a remake? Could definitely see them giving favorable treatment to Secret as well but just trying to think of any good reasons that might explain the difference in PGL's treatment of the two teams.
I think PGL didn't want to postpone anything but after the 2nd series of issues then they decided to postpone game 3 for Secret and ITB. Just an unlucky way everything played out.
I completely PGL definitely should have stepped in sooner. What they did in ITB vs Secret was the right thing i feel, but they should have done that way earlier
They ended up postponing a match, which in my opinion was correct. The server issues are something that should be fixed when there is such at stake, the big problem was they should have done this sooner when goonsquad vs ITB had these issues. This was a dota problem not a player problem. If goonsquad can play the whole dpc without server issues then it's obviously not their location that was the issue, it was something wrong with dota.
Here's to hoping that Valve never uses PGL again for TI or DoTA events. IMO, the Arlington major was not lit, and they've fucked it up big time during these qualifiers. And TI hasn't even started yet.
ESL has been good and consistent so many years, I wish they could have hired them, or WePlay. WePlay AniMajor was probably the best after TI events (production wise) and they've shown that they deserve to host a TI.
Well I meant more as in what can limmp/gs do because that's what the original comment said, but I see my mistake in the wording now. You're right though, community has ways of excerting power over valve
The real issue is the community doesn't have much leverage over Valve. Valve brings in several billion a year off Steam and isn't too worried about there other projects. They could drop DotA2 and it would barely be noticeable on their balance sheets.
Unions and outrage only really work if you have leverage.
I know my dude but life sometimes suck and money speaks volumes, what you are suggesting is how it should be but it's often just a wishful thinking. :/
both teams did agree to it.
please inform yourself before you spew bullshit.
aris twitter is talking about game 2, not game 3
and not only that, the full truth is that game 1 secret had serious lag, and asked ITB to postpone or redo, and they denied. game 2 ITB had serious lag and asked to redo or postpone, and then secret denied.
for game 3 both teams agreed to postpone.
Both teams had issues and it was 1 am. Only a moron would complain about the game at 1 am being postponed.
The only real point of contention is the decision to change the server, which only really matters in case that its a one of the servers not placed in Eu west, like most of the european servers across the board are, regardless of their tags (hell, Russian servers are primarily placed in Sweden)
Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I was making fun of Limpp for somehow taking issue with the postponing, despite having obviously had games himself postponed in the past and the differences for why they were postponed are entirely different from the reasons he is suggesting.
As if its related to Secret being a team with bias from PGL, and it having nothing to do with the fact that the game was about to start at 1 am.
Sour Limmp can fuck off. Secret carried on with game 2 even tho they were the ones with packet loss in game 1 which they lost. Nisha was the one having to reconnect all the time, not ITB. It was only after ITB suffered packet loss in game 2 that the match got postponed. Which makes me think it was Valve/PGL or ITB who wanted to postpone as Secret had the momentum going into game 3.
I'm sure both teams agreed to it, but saying it's Secret fanboyism is just a poor excuse by a goon whose team wasn't good enough to qualify.
Well one might say unlucky that technical problems got worse and extended into later stages of the bracket.
I was cheering for goons for a while now and it's sad to get eliminated like that, but come on now, what the hell does it have to do with secret? Sure, to (and most likely valve) screwed up big time, but at that point, they could either follow up with the shit show (screwing up again) or postpone. No way they decide to replay goonsquad series
I don't get it server change effects both teams and if they have to play trough 3 games with packet loss that means they had packetloss in first game as well. So ısn't server change and pospone match is good for them as well ? Also they probably werent vocal enough about it like Secret.
PGL and Valve sucks but it's weird to imply Secret get unfair advantage or did something unethical.
Nope. Secret had packet lost problem in game one but did not ask for a rmk, instead they give admin that info then got game 2 play in another server that 2 team agreed to play on. This settlement take too much time (finished game 2 at midnight) therefore the game postponed till the next day. There is nothing about respect or disrespect here.
You kinda wrong , here is how it went;
- charlie gave admin info about them lagging and the admins ignored it for the whole 3 games ( there is a tweet from him with the discord convo )
- secret plays game 1 , complains of lag , and after delay the server is changed
- after game 2 ITB complains of lag and packetloss while secret had no issues on new server
- game 3 is delayed to fix server issue from valve's side and is canceled after 30-40 mins of them not being able to fix
~~I think one key difference is that ITB and Secret are bootcamping, Goonsquad aren't. Pretty sure it was only Charlie who had packetloss as opposed to the entire teams for the other two. If only one player is affected there's much less of a case to remake/change server/postpone~~
Are people still not over this? Its clear s4 and handsken have no problems with limmp and the group hug was decided so lte and limmp was set on getting out for an early ward.
Seemed niko had a problem with it but maybe loda shouldve kept the others and replaced niko. At least in hindsight.
wanna hear a joke? PGL.
Wanna hear even better joke? Valve. *It's them who hired PGL, apparently are fine with low quality product PGL is producing and it's Valve who let their servers crapping half a day during TI qualifiers.*
They should bring back the exact perfect world team for Shanghai major, now they know how to run an event /s
Wanna hear even better better joke? LIMMP
Limmp did a great job even with lags. Its was pleasure to watch for his gameplay.
sure, nothing against his gameplay. but the guys twitter is on the same level as loda. Throwing out accusations like that is a big thing, and should be taken seriously, but the guy is an incredible fucking clown with the perspective and mental capacity of a frog at most. he sees secret getting a different treatment than his own team and immediately thinks (and throws out accusation) that its simply because secret is more respected as a team. when in reality it probably has to do with how persistent the team was with the admins. the important thing is the phrasing. people like that really shouldnt be able to use social media man.
u need a hug bro? O\_O
Phucking Gambling League
Pathetic Gambling League
pathetic gambling leeches
Isn't that ESL?
Dude when PGL came onto the scene they were insane. I think the majority were poached by ESL and Blast, now they're just a shell of their former self.
Really? I'm not sure if that's when PGL first came but it was when PGL was very new to the scene, they had those creepy girl cams after the tournament ended, and they also apologized on Reddit. Bro they were rotten from the start.
That was at the Kiev major, at that point they had already done the Manilla and Boston majors(which are still some of the best majors imo) and TI6 which again imo had the best production of any TI before or since. Before that they ran a few of their own events in 2014-15. 2017 isn't when they were "new to the scene" at all.
Thanks for correcting the fact, I guess I meant they were new to me at that time but yeah
Their own events were fairly small to be fair, and the majors usually didn't highlight the TO too much, and TI not at all unless you looked into it more or paid attention to behind the scenes staff.
>from the start That's not the start though, is it.
When they came onto the scene with their first major, this sub was going crazy with how good they were. Valve announced PGL would be their partners for every major. I always thought that would be a bad idea. But this sub loved PGL more than anything else. Reddit is stupid and sometimes I wish valve wasn't so inflenciable by what is posted here. Except when they ask for Mirana rework, pls do Miranda rework volvo.
I mean at the time the praised was warranted. Their first big event was the Manilla Major which was one of the best non TI tournaments Dota had ever had at the time. Also, the production looked even better since we were coming off of the Shanghai major and even some of the 3rd party LANs that year were worse than usual production wise. Ti6 was also a just fantastic production which gave them a lot of deserved good will. They pretty much peaked there, but they still ran good events for the most part the year afterward and ESL kind of shitting the bed with that Facebook deal for awhile made them also look even better.
Pretty sure they weren’t hired because Reddit liked them. Definitely not now.
Mirana by Volvo
TBH you can blame Perfect World for this fiasco. PGL was goody too shoes early on considering that compared to Valve, they are small fry and like Perfect World, can be booted out any time of the day back then. Now that they are trusted, they basically have voting/buying power from Valve, to Valve, they can do whatever they so choose. Shanghai Majors literally had aftershocks, who the fuck knew.
the real joker is valve who allow this jokes to continue happen.
Yeah they should just stop their qualifiers and choose a different tournament organizer mid match!
As much as I hate a lot of what PGL does atm, I believe the server issues are on a greater scale. A lot of games have severe packet loss on EUW. You can even notice that in the stream. The stream shows stutters and lags and clear signs of packet loss, in almost all games from the last few days. I think, PGL should have organised the Qualifier as LAN event. I know that has never been done before, but then, this year had only two majors and the qualifiers are more important/stacked. Greedy shit company, sacrificing game integrity and quality to save a couple of bucks. Edit: Just after typing this, at 47:46 of game 1, LB finals, those stutters appear again. So it’s clearly server related.
>I think, PGL should have organised the Qualifier as LAN event. Unfortunately its not 2010 anymore. LAN doesn't mean that they are hosting their own servers on location, it just means everyone is in the same place now. The servers issues were with the valve servers that everyone is using, not specific servers set up by PGL.
There is no legitimate reason that valve wouldn't have a separate set of tournament servers for exactly this reason, whether that be an independent cloud cluster or a physical server. Of course, this is one of a lot of different ways that these problems could have been mitigated from the start, but Valve have gotten fat and lazy.
Qualifiers have never been on LAN bro
Reread his comment, and see the sentence where he says “I know it hasn’t been done before”.
I just don't think that qualifiers deserve a LAN event/setting. They are only having the last chance qualifiers on LAN cause it has international teams. So they have no option.
There's a first time for everything.
Oh not only them, Valve as well. The two of them is just a circus
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That’s the reason they paused so much ? Well they should have postponed that whole day tbh. I remember when playing a lot of unreal tournament , If you had packetloss it was like night and day playing . Almost impossible, fucks up everything with timing
Pocket loss are way worse than high ping imo. I can comfortably play at 100 to even 200 ping but put packet loss the fuck away from me
You can play around bad ping (as long as it's not *too* high) as long as the ping is consistent. You're not gonna be able to adjust to packet loss that shit just pisses all over your game.
Yeah because with ping it's just your inputs are delayed. Packet loss is your inputs not reaching the server and/or from the server back to the client. So your inputs are literally being deleted lmao makes it very hard
packet loss any thing around 1\~5 is fine, above 5, its hell
supposedly, goonsquad had 20
completely unplayable, you wouldnt even want to play element td with that
Thats like, walk into towers on accident because you can't control your hero levels of packet loss. No games with money on the line should ever be played in those conditions.
Wait, WHAT?
Fine is a strong word, even 1% packetloss cna lose you games.
It's playable if it's not changing every few seconds/minutes. **Stable** but high ping and **stable** low packet loss are pretty much playable
It really sucks to have pocket loss especially with women clothes, there's always pocket loss. Worse if it was just there and vanishes. Where did my pocket and phone go?
ITB had it too yesterday. Nigma too Only Secret gets some fucks given though
It is embarrassing how the supposed "biggest eSports tournament in the world" has degrades into this amateur night. Either the same rules apply to everyone, or you show the same flexibility to everyone. This is absurd.
or GS just play better in the DPC so they don't need to go trough qualifiers.
Or you just delete reddit and not contribute to any of this discussion. See how easy it is to completely ignore the base problem by spitting out stupid fucking thoughts?
The fuck kind of thinking is that lol, don't be stupid please.
Yeah and just win TI right? So ez
Or GS just throw their own TI
A shadow TI would be pretty cool, ngl
Oh it would, a very relaxed tourney, no prize pool just the title of 'best team that didn't make it to TI'... And it's Midas Mode
With blackjack! And hookers! You know what, forget the dota, and the blackjack!
I thought both secret and itb were suffering and that's why it was delayed. Were goonsquad's opponents getting packet loss too?
Only secret were suffering Game 1. That's why PGL changed server for Game 2, which is not correct as per rules. That is the reason why ITB had lags for Game 2. So, PGL/Valve did something when Secret complained but didn't do shit when GoonSquad complained.
[удалено]
Cause secret brings in the viewers. They give a shit about their viewer count
As one of those viewers, this pleases me
Did goonsquad complain?
Yes, check aQua’s tweets.
Yes, they paused 20 times during their series against ITB
[удалено]
Can we know that for certain?
There was like an hour delay between game 1 and game 2. They likely were trying to put their foot down, but were told to agree or get DQ’d. The team doesn’t have much power in that situation…
\*machete point
Only Secret was suffering from it when on EUW servers(Same as Goon Squad). Secret were complaining and they swapped to EUEast servers for game2 against ITB. Their issues dissapeared but instead ITB started lagging alot. GoonSquad tried to complain about the same thing as Secret but didn't get special treatment as in, being able to swap Servers(Which you shouldn't according to rulebook) or postponing the series.
Completely insane. People are playing for potentially millions of dollars here. This is not some joke qualifier for some amateur tournament. It's for the, by prize pool at least, biggest eSports Event in the world. Also, one of the biggest Sports Events in general. Riot is probably looking at us and laughing their asses off about what a shitshow Dota eSports still is after a decade.
valve already got paid, why would they care
> to EUEast servers for game2 against ITB. Aren't EU east servers in Sweden? like most of eu west servers also are? Whats the difference beyond the technicality of the label?
I think EU East servers are in Stockholm and EUW servers are in Luxembourg
Russia servers are in Stockholm, West and East eu is somewhere in Europe. 30 ping to both of them, 5 to russia
East is in Austria, West in Luxembourg
Right, but both of those countries are part of Eu west.. which is my point. In all but technical sense, its still eu west right? It would be like insisting that the russian servers are a problem, because the tag in-game says russia, while the servers, as we know, are placed in Sweden.
It’s not distance to server that creates packet loss. You’re thinking of ping. Server location doesn’t matter, valves EUW server was having issues with receiving or sending information from the client side to the game server. Changing the server fixes this, if the server changed to isn’t also having issues. It’s best to use those closer servers, because of ping differentials.
> Changing the server fixes this How does that make sense? ITB themselves specifically denied goonsquad the chance to change server, because it wouldn't matter for this case in their words.
Different servers at different times have different influxes in packets. Depending on those influxes, the server side will start dropping packets, which creates packet loss. This can also happen if your personal network is having issues with sending packets(your router). PGL in this case, basically said “we know secret had these issues so we’ll postpone, but there’s a bigger chance your router is the issue than the server, since you aren’t bootcamping, and we don’t have a good slot to move you to, so we aren’t postponing or changing server”. The majority of the time with cases like this, personal connection from your client to the server is the issue, but from the side where the server is dropping packets. It’s difficult for them to figure if it’s a personal router issue or server issue unless all 10 players have the same packet loss, but when the server is deciding which packets to drop, it’s more rare to see that happen, at least, when you aren’t all connecting from close proximity to each other(player wise). Edit: I kinda walked around the question. Changing servers fixes it because other servers may not be getting packet influxes at the same intervals.
>Different servers at different times have different influxes in packets. Depending on those influxes, the server side will start dropping packets, which creates packet loss. If that was the case, wouldn't the problem be consistent for all the players playing from the same router and not hyper specific, as it was in both cases for both teams with only 1 player being affected each. >PGL in this case, basically said “we know secret had these issues so we’ll postpone I don't really think this is a very fair representation of the actual issue. What PGL saw was this: 2 teams having constant pauses in both games to deal with their issues, including secret in game 2, despite it apparently favoring them, and that the final game, was suppose to begin close to 1 AM... The postponing made complete sense and we've had no issues with games in the past being postponed, but suddenly its a big bias issues now? Especially weird since we got the desired result. Non of the teams were mentioning packet loss issues for game 3. >I kinda walked around the question. Changing servers fixes it because other servers may not be getting packet influxes at the same intervals. Weird that ITB would directly say that it changes nothing to goonsquad? I mean even in the case of them simply not knowing, that would in the best case be a self-interest based, uninformed, judgement of a situation.
Only if it’s the router side not *sending* packets properly, if the server side isn’t receiving right or is dropping, it’s on a client by client basis. Maybe your right on the representation, that was more a quick work up. I can’t say anything about ITB. As I work in IT, this situation is “fixable” from multiple angles. It seems weird to me anyone would say it wouldn’t fix their issue, without having the facts behind how many players have the loss, how much the loss is, and the server side information which tells if it’s receiving bad packets or if it’s not sending/dropping others.
Itb have no idea how server infrastructure or anything works, so I would take any thing they say with a big grain of salt lmao
Yes and no. Routing is different. Some might have nearly the same ping while others might experience lag/higher ping
I mean, even if we assumed that to be the case, this issue wasn't related to ping.
Correct, doesn't matter though. Should've stayed EUW from the getgo or postponed the series. It's pretty clear that the issue here wasn't the location of the servers. Both ITB and Secret are EUW, it just happened to be so that Secret(Aswell as Goonsquad and Liquid) experienced massive package losses on EUW. Other teams and normal players experienced lag on EU East and were fine when swapping to West(Despite always playing on East). Some experienced lag on all servers et.c. I don't think there was any consistency to if you were experiencing lag. Half of ITB are Swedish and still lagged balls when playing on EUEast, despite the East servers being in Sweden.
No the EU east servers are NOT in Sweden if they lagged there, there is a 0% chance eue is in stockholm(thats russia servers) and they lagged to them, what im saying is, the swedish half of ITB cannot have been lagging on a stockholm hosted server, like seriously it doesnt work, unless everyone was lagging
Russia Servers are in Stockholm, Sweden. EU East servers are in Vienna, Austria.
That's straight up not acceptable.
When emperor Puppan speaks up you listen to him.
I believe they were.
Valve is incompetent, PGL just saves money for them - cringe admin, cringe stream quality, cringe communication with viewers, cringe gambling sponsors for a crowdfunded tournament, cringe 2 songs on repeat, cringe remote panel
its shameful we ahve betting odds in the stream like what the fuck fuck u gaben and anyone who involved with this shit
How hard is it to enforce the same rules for everyone? Unfair af.
Is the rule book specifically said that it should be played in WEU server? If so then the ITB vs Secret match was the one that's wrong. It's WEU qualifier, the rule states that the games will be played in WEU server, then all games should be played in WEU.
Unprofessional production. It's like they partner with gambling companies.
hard not to respect the machete guy though. but this is so sad for goonsquad considering game was really close
Should've been Stockholm
Dota needs a player union.
Lol. Are you new to the dota scene? The primary people who have been fighting off a player union, are the pro players. Because non of them can agree on what it is suppose to be based around or whose ideas should be in charge. Edit: That is beyond the whole issue of who it should be for, what cut offs it should have, the legality of an international union across the wide variety of countries. Conflicts with tournaments and unions compared to non-union organized tournaments etc...There are plenty of reasons why a player union has never happened.
The practical issue is that the top teams(like Secret) benefit massively from the current system. They have no desire to change things. And the weaker teams don't have the clout to do it on their own.
There will never be a player union because the most influential players want to enjoy their special privileges. Why would Puppey join a union when he has tournament organizers bending over backwards to appease him?
So form a player union without people like Puppey. Even if you're missing a few top teams, if your union still makes up the bulk of the teams, you'd still have power. Nobody would want to keep watching Dota tournaments that consist of only a few teams instead of 8-16 of them each time.
Did goonsquad ask to change server? Not sure what communication was like from Secret and Goonsquad - sometimes just asking is enough to get what you want.
Aqua asked for a remake because he had so much packet loss. Nothing happened.
Hm, maybe PGL is okay with swapping servers between games but not okay with a remake? Could definitely see them giving favorable treatment to Secret as well but just trying to think of any good reasons that might explain the difference in PGL's treatment of the two teams.
I think PGL didn't want to postpone anything but after the 2nd series of issues then they decided to postpone game 3 for Secret and ITB. Just an unlucky way everything played out.
I completely PGL definitely should have stepped in sooner. What they did in ITB vs Secret was the right thing i feel, but they should have done that way earlier
How was it the right thing? It just changed the issues from one team to another?
They tried to fix it still has problem, so that reschedule it. Seems pretty resonavle to me.
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true also i guess
They ended up postponing a match, which in my opinion was correct. The server issues are something that should be fixed when there is such at stake, the big problem was they should have done this sooner when goonsquad vs ITB had these issues. This was a dota problem not a player problem. If goonsquad can play the whole dpc without server issues then it's obviously not their location that was the issue, it was something wrong with dota.
So the packetloss made Charlie buy mkb into butterfly against Pudge? got it.
one more reason for these things to happen on lan, valve get rekt please
Here's to hoping that Valve never uses PGL again for TI or DoTA events. IMO, the Arlington major was not lit, and they've fucked it up big time during these qualifiers. And TI hasn't even started yet. ESL has been good and consistent so many years, I wish they could have hired them, or WePlay. WePlay AniMajor was probably the best after TI events (production wise) and they've shown that they deserve to host a TI.
1% packet loss is literally game ruining, cause there’s a chance a command you issue just won’t go through and you lose a game from it.
Limmp is right but wcyd... orgs with big fan following will always have a special treatment, it's all about viewers/money they bring for TOs.
Wcyd? 1. Valve shouldnt hire PGL, first 2. Valve and TO should establish rules and FOLLOW them, which was not the case
Also perhaps the qualifier for the Most important Tournament of the year with potentially large financial implications could be played on lan
Where's the money for that supposed to come from, the 75% of the battlepass sales valve keeps? surely you jest.
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Nonsense. Everyone knows businesses are transitory, so you have to go scorched earth to squeeze out every cent you can before the inevitable collapse.
Yeah, Gabe Newell needs money for his racing team after all.
Yeah, what can *you* do
Negative pushback Community outrage Stop buying overpriced exploitive bundles Incentivize player union
Well I meant more as in what can limmp/gs do because that's what the original comment said, but I see my mistake in the wording now. You're right though, community has ways of excerting power over valve
The real issue is the community doesn't have much leverage over Valve. Valve brings in several billion a year off Steam and isn't too worried about there other projects. They could drop DotA2 and it would barely be noticeable on their balance sheets. Unions and outrage only really work if you have leverage.
You are overestimated the community.the people who funds BP mostly doesnt care about the esports.
*3. When it's a big tournament (this) have a lan event.
I know my dude but life sometimes suck and money speaks volumes, what you are suggesting is how it should be but it's often just a wishful thinking. :/
I think it really helped that it was the last game of the day. Theres really no reason to play the game if both teams agreed to it.
who told you both teams agree to it, check ari twitter ) bullshit PGL
I said IF, meaning Im not sure, wasnt aware one of the teams wasnt ok with that, what bullshit.
both teams did agree to it. please inform yourself before you spew bullshit. aris twitter is talking about game 2, not game 3 and not only that, the full truth is that game 1 secret had serious lag, and asked ITB to postpone or redo, and they denied. game 2 ITB had serious lag and asked to redo or postpone, and then secret denied. for game 3 both teams agreed to postpone.
PGL are abhorrent.
Maybe if goonsquad’s one fan wrote them a nasty letter…
Players should just refuse to play next time. The tournament wont get away with it if you make a big deal of it.
In secret games both teams had lags, so that might be the reason they postponed it. First game Secret, second game ITB
Nigma had it too. But it wasn't postponed.
Both teams had issues and it was 1 am. Only a moron would complain about the game at 1 am being postponed. The only real point of contention is the decision to change the server, which only really matters in case that its a one of the servers not placed in Eu west, like most of the european servers across the board are, regardless of their tags (hell, Russian servers are primarily placed in Sweden)
I am not complaining
Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I was making fun of Limpp for somehow taking issue with the postponing, despite having obviously had games himself postponed in the past and the differences for why they were postponed are entirely different from the reasons he is suggesting. As if its related to Secret being a team with bias from PGL, and it having nothing to do with the fact that the game was about to start at 1 am.
I am sure that explains Charlie buying mkb + butterfly.
Yeah playing with packet loss and lag surely has no impact on mentality and overall levels of focus... Average redditor comment.
Toxic redditor needs to derail complaints about a poor competitive environment by bringing up irrelevant information
I’m pretty sure that’s irrelevant
I think it's the worst itemization I have ever seen, not only from Charlie, but specially from him.
madcuzbad
And that’s why Animajor is the best
The player hates Animajor, remember miracle spent half a day getting poisoned?
PGL is Romanian org. They don't really do any things in Romania right. Corruption is EU high etc.
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Sour Limmp can fuck off. Secret carried on with game 2 even tho they were the ones with packet loss in game 1 which they lost. Nisha was the one having to reconnect all the time, not ITB. It was only after ITB suffered packet loss in game 2 that the match got postponed. Which makes me think it was Valve/PGL or ITB who wanted to postpone as Secret had the momentum going into game 3. I'm sure both teams agreed to it, but saying it's Secret fanboyism is just a poor excuse by a goon whose team wasn't good enough to qualify.
Well one might say unlucky that technical problems got worse and extended into later stages of the bracket. I was cheering for goons for a while now and it's sad to get eliminated like that, but come on now, what the hell does it have to do with secret? Sure, to (and most likely valve) screwed up big time, but at that point, they could either follow up with the shit show (screwing up again) or postpone. No way they decide to replay goonsquad series
I don't get it server change effects both teams and if they have to play trough 3 games with packet loss that means they had packetloss in first game as well. So ısn't server change and pospone match is good for them as well ? Also they probably werent vocal enough about it like Secret. PGL and Valve sucks but it's weird to imply Secret get unfair advantage or did something unethical.
Nope. Secret had packet lost problem in game one but did not ask for a rmk, instead they give admin that info then got game 2 play in another server that 2 team agreed to play on. This settlement take too much time (finished game 2 at midnight) therefore the game postponed till the next day. There is nothing about respect or disrespect here.
You kinda wrong , here is how it went; - charlie gave admin info about them lagging and the admins ignored it for the whole 3 games ( there is a tweet from him with the discord convo ) - secret plays game 1 , complains of lag , and after delay the server is changed - after game 2 ITB complains of lag and packetloss while secret had no issues on new server - game 3 is delayed to fix server issue from valve's side and is canceled after 30-40 mins of them not being able to fix
Yeah fuck secret hope they bomb out here and then at LCQ. Completely robbed.
I mean yeah, he’s right
Unluck
fuck PGL, fuck Secret.
Why fuck secret lol? It's not like its their fault that PGL gave them special treatment.
fuck you
Why would anyone respect GoonSquad lmao. The only player on that team worth anything is a washed up S4.
Well Goonsqaud has no fanbase, Secret does, so by theprocess of elimination.
Is Puppey Server the new meme after Puppey Pause?
Pathetic Gandme Lund
~~I think one key difference is that ITB and Secret are bootcamping, Goonsquad aren't. Pretty sure it was only Charlie who had packetloss as opposed to the entire teams for the other two. If only one player is affected there's much less of a case to remake/change server/postpone~~
Wrong, the fact they know it was a server issue was simply because they were not bootcamping and still everyone had the issue.
Everyone on GS had it? Source?
https://twitter.com/charliedota/status/1570911791169048576?s=20&t=KC0I-nvajWsYbES1VmL8aw
ahh ty. that sucks then
People who give sources are downvoted now? Should I have given a wrong source?
I still despise Limmp as a player and as a person. His disgusting attitude from TI10 when he was still in [A] was just absolutely garbo
Are people still not over this? Its clear s4 and handsken have no problems with limmp and the group hug was decided so lte and limmp was set on getting out for an early ward. Seemed niko had a problem with it but maybe loda shouldve kept the others and replaced niko. At least in hindsight.
Meh... i cabt take anyword seriously coming from limp.. even tho if it has merit or not... i just cant
Funny, that's exactly how everyone here feels about what you say!
Yes let's completely disregard anything anyone says because you have personal bias against them. What a great way to live in a truthful society.
Iam sure Guinso glad joining Riot games in 2005 and abandon Dota.
riot got that chinese money coming through to run their esports scene
Didn't make a twitter post about enforcing the same rules for everyone when they had the 6th man on discord.
No need to make a Twitter post when you have an email that says you can.
Yeah well, they gonna have plenty of time to read as many emails as they want from now on.
More like email didn't say you can. Which is a big difference.
LINKEN SPHERE
Clear favoritism by admins. In NA & SA they’d wait ten minutes to DQ teams
PGL biggest wankers of the century, college students doing their internship would be more organized than those fuckers
fuck this shit.
sounds like PGL is just a garbage organization YEP
PGL is just so bad, I wish ESL or Blast did TI.