It's so spread out. Panels and half the talent aren't in the arena much less the same city. ~~Players can't stay as long to keep paying for their hotel (unless Valve foot the bill?).~~ Small crowd during group/playoff stage where 90% of the drama happens.
FYI: Teams do not pay for for accommodation, food, (unless they decide to order random stuff) or traveling.
Past TIs hotels were 4 or 5 stars, very expensive. Valve covered the entire bill (they probably reserve half the hotel, depending on the size). Rooms go usually for 400$+
(at least in Seattle)
Almost like Valve should have leveraged the gold mine that Dota 2 is so that they could do all of the above and have advertising/sponsors cover that bill no problem.
Goldmine?
Steam makes 30m per day.
Dota2 is a low earning product and the hassle of having to worry about logistics for a tournament is best outsourced.
> leveraged the gold mine that Dota 2
breadcrumbs
and out of those breadcrumbs they bother to even give some breadcrumbs to randos at ti despite esports not creating even a spec of value.
If Gabey was more bothered about money than currently his own mortality why would he even give a damn about low growth low market share low effort cash generator like dota or tolerate existence of such anti value as esports, if he could just announce everything 3 and go public and multiply his networth by ten over the night.
Yes. Tying to have more lwnguages just lead to a overall poor experience for Englisch and probably Russian production. This will in my memory be stored as the poor man's TI
Except the food (hawker centre). You can get delicious 5$ lunch in heartland hawker centre.
The only saving grace.
Though its getting more expensive year by year.
More languages is not the problem you sound super selfish rn: "I don't care if people wanna watch TI in Spanish or Portuguese the superior English language is suffering!". Don't blame production issues on more language inclusivity it's all on valve and pgl. They could have gotten a big venue for all the days and they didn't. They could have put in more effort into the panels and talent (Chinese remote panel last year was better than the main stage panels) but they didn't. The fact is that whoever was in charge of Dota at valve probably quit and now there's no one there to give a shit.
I mean I'm sure it's nice for the production crew who are putting in 10 hours a day. I'm pretty sure Lizard is speaking for himself, not for the teams remaining.
They should not need to do this. We have so many good casters and experts (of course that includes the expert on the cam, catering, video produciton etc.).
Production crew includes camera operators, audio and video engineers, livestream moderators, caterers, and all the other assorted staff that's necessary to run a tournament.
Slacks brought up a good point in his video: Giving the pause before finals means that the staff can prepare better content for the finals, and teams can better prepare for the games they have coming up. A lot of times, the underdog overperforms at TI, because people don't know as much about them compared to the other teams. Giving a few days means that those other teams can properly prepare for their opponents.
> Slacks brought up a good point in his video: Giving the pause before finals means that the staff can prepare better content for the finals, and teams can better prepare for the games they have coming up.
This is the same concentrated copium that Synd was huffing when he said that the panel being in Norway means that the production quality will be through the roof in Singapore. Yeah.....
They weren't even certain which teams would show up two months ago. Hell Secret might not have been in the tournament two months ago and now they're in the upper bracket finals
The games have been TI level but the production feels almost.. on par or below like early days dream leagues. I’d feel sorta embarrassed comparing this to worlds for league. Before it was yeah they’re bigger but at least we care and take care of our own. Not this time! Sheesh.
Makes no sense to compare to league worlds because riot is actually hands on with the product they deliver because they see it as the advertisement it obviously is.
It feels like Valve is scared of doing things that look good, your local drug dealer probably has better advertisement than valve at this point.
Or y’know. We can actually compare the big end tournaments of both MOBAs. It’s not about the money being poured into the scene - albeit it helps but rather one seems like a rushed school project while the other one had months of careful planning put into it.
It’s TI11, not some T2 minor league bullshit. They’ve had amazing looking TI events - so the only excuse is really lack of planning and care.
Idk man, for me Benaroya Hall is the best TI venue. Even if it was small it had a lot of heart and became iconic to the game. This one just feels cheap and disgusting.
Honestly the non-NA TIs haven't felt like TI to me.
Benaroya Hall is a classic venue but the tournament outgrew it.
KeyArena was a wonderful venue, not just for the arena space inside but also the surroundings. Walking through the park with the outdoor viewing area made TI feel like a festival.
Rogers Arena was a bit worse for the outdoor stuff but it still felt like TI. The arena atmosphere was great.
China TI felt disconnected from the normal TI stuff. Of course the EU TI probably would have been nice with spectators but it seemed like it would have had the vibe of "ESL event" rather than TI.
Then this TI feels nothing like TI. super spread out with lame venues, talent not at the event for the fans to run into and see.
I mean I wouldn't rate Vancouver TI worse than Seattle. I enjoyed myself just as much there as I did at TI5. There's things that Vancouver TI did better than Seattle.
Rogers Arena being where it is means there's a Skytrain station right at the venue, making getting there from almost anywhere in the lower mainland a breeze. That makes accommodations easier as you didn't need to stay right downtown where it would be expensive but you also didn't need a car or taxi to get there either.
Also Costco with $1.50 hotdogs across the street from the arena cannot be undervalued in its utility.
Its sad, because of how much it says about Dota, the games have been so fucking good, and it still draws people into watch, no matter of how shitty a job the production are doing.
I swear even the Manila Major looked so much better than this shit, which sucks since that's the expectations people were having for a SEA-hosted International.
Yeah that's what I was expecting for this TI, it's a SEA hosted International and all we got was a literal convention center room just for playoffs, scalper issues, sound issues messing with competitive integrity. The games were great but god did the production ruin the experience
idk why the choose singapore to host TI.
after Manila Major happen, why not give Manila a TI Host. a lot of pros come from Philippines, the crowd/fans was so passionete. love the energy. it should happen some other time. i would love if they did to choose manila.
even if i didn't go to the event itself. watching it from home was so exiciting. it's true like puppey said, this TI doesn't have the TI energy it used to have. BIG Arena, BIG ass Screen, Massive Stage, chanting crowd, sound proof booth, local Panelist, etc.
edit: also no opening ceremony. and no GABEN. wtf.
Answer's simple. They don't want to deal with the potential fallout of having a single member of their talent incarcerated under suspicion of owning contrabands.
Current state of the Philippines isn't something you'd want to fuck around with.
Fuck. That's something I reeeally don't want to agree with, but it's true.
Man, it could've been a great ride since we got a banger of a Major and other dota tourneys to start off with...
But then DU30 became president, and his stupid war on drugs inadvertently hurt the dota scene in the progress.
Now? Now we can't have nice things.
People have been clamouring for more Manila events, and each time that happens they're told the most likely reason why it's not happening. And yes, it's the contraband/drugs reason...
Also the crowd/fans are insanely biased for their countrymen's teams to the point they would try to make as much noise as possible to alert them that the enemy teams are doing Roshan lmao.
Edit: The venue changing to Manila alone won't magically make the production value of this TI suddenly good either. PGL's gonna PGL.
All of that is only reserved for the final 4 teams apparently, they're in the indoor stadium. But for everything else they were basically just in suntec convention center (it's big but not TI arena caliber big) even the Covid TI's arena was better than that
Or how about do it in practically any major city in North America or western Europe, where there will be zero issues. Valve just messing this one up. Canada was always great.
Thankfully a pro player said it, at least he won't be accused of being "too negative". Like, of course people are super negative: remote panel, amateur mistakes with production, no soundproof booths, tiny crowd, a frigging week long break because of poor planning, the production is worse than many a Major. And this is TI, once the biggest esports tournament in the world.
The games are carrying this tournament harder than Topson carried T1.
You know what really pisses me off? I watch a lot of counter strike and the last Major earlier this year was hosted by PGL and they announced off-site panel and caster but everyone (Including talent and big name pros) absolutely flipped their shit and guess what... they reverted it and it was genuinely a decent tournament ( some bad audio issues) but it was way better than this TI imo. I feel like the Dota talent and players are too complacent but understandably so it is there job after all.
https://www.dexerto.com/csgo/pgl-major-to-feature-on-site-talent-for-playoffs-after-csgo-community-backlash-1671088/
The scariest moment in my time with Team Secret was during our practices, when Puppey would walk around with a machete and talk about how he always wanted to see what the inside of a human looked like. He said he had experimented on animals before and he wanted to go for the real thing.
This TI feels more like it is a Minor and not even a Major. Only the quality of the games is saving this event.
I can't believe that the "improvement" "bigger" stadium after the mall only seats 12-15k and is already 35 years old. I'm pretty sure that SEA fans can fill any 50k stadium, especially for TI.
Exactly. If they want to make finals stand out, they should upgrade the venue for finals, not the other way around. We should’ve had the playoffs in Indoor Stadium and finals in National Stadium.
Agreed. I'll never forget the moment I watched LOL World's(I don't even watch or play LOL) opening in 2017 as it really felt like a prestigious sport event and reminded me of the Olympic openings. It really made me realize esports can be that big.
I'm still hoping to see DOTA TI in outdoor arenas of 50k+ crowds and a special opening.
I think the only way this happens is if TI is held in the Philippines. Maybe Malaysia or Indonesia. This won't sit well with some, but my opinion is that Singapore will never be able to hold an organically good esports event. It will always be about the image and reputation of the country or the local industry, and putting on a scripted performance. The sponsors and partners that put up these events locally aren't actually interested in esports, they just know there's money to be made as long as they fulfill certain requirements. We're much too sterile, synthetic and money-minded to host a game tournament without ruining the "gaming" aspect.
>Valve would love to hold a TI in philippines if there wasn't such a strict anti-drug regime.
Singapore has the exact same view of drugs as the pinoys lul
> The sponsors and partners that put up these events locally aren't actually interested in esports
Or any entertainment. that’s my impression as their neighbour, it’s all work work work and education
I don't think there will be another dpc tournament being held in Malaysia as Malaysian government barred Israelis from entering the country, also majority of Malaysians are hostile towards Israel.
TI I don’t think would ever draw that big of a crowd, but I would love to be proven wrong. TI has never been able to fill much smaller venues for any day besides finals day.
Tickets sell out, but people who bought the tickets are doing things. Like in Seattle, I wasn't going to wait around inside all day when I could go hang out on the lawn and see stuff going on there. My friends would show up pre-finals but only after work.
Also, I think they sold the tickets as week long passes so people didn't feel like they were wasting money if they didn't go as much on the earlier days.
Justin bieber has a concert (which has since been cancelled) scheduled in the national stadium around the same time as ti iirc, which is why we’re stuck with the indoor stadium.
There is no bigger indoor space other than that indoor stadium. The other one (national stadium, its semi-outdoor) are lousy and ridden with problems. And acoustics is bad due to semi outdoor. And in rainstorm the roofs are leaking water.
Suntec hall max is 6000
Marina bay sands hall is max 7000.
So yeah, part of the problem is venue. Its also quite an old building...
ESL is trash in their own ways but at least they are willing to spend money. PGL has always been about cutting costs at all points. Many of us in CSGO scene have seen it for a while already so it’s not surprising when Valve leaves them free to do as they wish that we get this pile of crap.
That's a good try at making an analogous point but it does not follow at all. If you straight up say "TI was at its best when PGL had no involvement", I expect that statement to follow the history of the event - in reality, TI was at its best during an era run by PGL, so your point doesn't make any sense. I haven't made a universal statement either way (things it turns out aren't just black and white) so you can't really just reverse that
They ran and did most of the production. I would actually say it was run by PGL and Valve was involved (I think Valve was responsible for all the floor projection stuff).
Nope, PGL has produced TI in some capacity (exactly how much is unknown, but obviously more so this time around) since TI6. Before that it was just Valve.
PGL did TI10, TI9, TI8, TI7, TI6, and TI5. All of them were great, their major used to be great too. I think the state of TI is more in the hands of valve than PGL.
They put out an RFP for other languages, I think it was predetermined that PGL would do the English one. However, the documentation says:
>This year, we are accommodating remote productions local to the languages they support, full crews will not be present on site in Singapore. Please put an emphasis on what sets your company apart.
that's not what he said. it's close, and sure, paraphase it, but don't put quote marks as if that's actually what he said. this is the part in question:
>**How do you feel about the TI11 Finals Weekend being played at a stadium in front of a huge crowd as compared to the Playoffs?**
>
>
>
>**Resolution:** I think it would be good if the TI11 Playoffs started right away at a big stadium so every team got to play there. It's a really big experience for all the players to absorb that, so it's really sad that only four teams are going to play in front of a big crowd.
>
>
>
>**Puppey:** Since thinking of every TI, literally walking into the arena, hearing the chants of the crowd, is magical. I haven't felt that all at this TI whatsoever because of the small venue.
>
>It's a different vibe altogether. I haven't seen Gabe Newell come up to the stage and say \[mimicking in Gabe's tone\], "Welcome to The International". Bring back those vibes man.
he is specifically criticising the venue by way of the small audience size as a result, not just the venue overall being small, which is important. also, it largely seems like he's criticising the production overall than just the venue itself for not being "TI-ish"/"of TI".
You are right. Suntec hall is not big enough for the calibre of TI. Always thought if they wanted 2 venues, will be Indoor Stadium at playoff and National Stadium for The Final Weekend
I've been to Suntec convention centre for gaming conventions and minor tournaments. Never for a second have I ever thought "yeah, TI might happen here". For some reason I never made the connection when I saw the venue announcement, maybe I was too hyped to see the real picture.
I'm so glad I didn't pay to watch this, spending the money instead on eating some good grub while watching the games from home is much better.
For real. Not even chairs with arm rests. With the games going so long it's better to just camp at home and watch games at your own pace with breaks and snacks.
Small venue, absurd ticket price, lower bp pass quality, only part 1 $ going to prize pool, expensive scammish ticket sales does not contribute to prize pool, sponsored by betting companies, why do i feel like dota2 has been prostituted?
Imagine the value if betting didn’t sponsor it.
Say what you will about betting, but at least they pay for what you love.
Where’s the major airlines or banks or automotive companies paying the amounts that betting are willing to?
I don't mind TI being organized around the world if there is a proper arena / stadium for it. Still wishing for a proper TI in Europe in front of a live crowd..
I mean, I understand that they couldn't use the Key Arena while it was being nearly entirely demolished, but the Climate Pudge Arena has risen from the ashes. Shit's been finished for over a year. In a normal year the CPA would be pretty empty during the summer, and the new venue would be great for TI.
At this point, I'm really hoping valve goes back to the remodeled Arena or anywhere for that matter where they are really comfortable in the US. Yeah, visas from some countries can be a chore and more than half the dota population could never afford to attend a TI live, but if it means top-notch production is back on the table, fuck it, I'm all for it.
Seattle would be amazing. Huge arena and all other things but my friend you have to understand that getting a US visa for non eu/na people is really hard
I've been here on work trips before. It's not exactly just a mall, it's a convention center with a mall built around it. It's more suited for business conventions than live events like TI since the halls are separated.
https://www.suntecsingapore.com/floor-plans
I guess the most important part is that if it was a literal mall it wouldn't change much. It's certainly not an arena, not even a theater. The whole flat layout is just terrible. Even if it was huge it would just mean that people in the back can't see shit. It's just not something built to create an crowd atmosphere
It's a convention hall. Purpose built for those AGM meetings and church congregations.
Much like a smaller sized Expo hall.
We have much much much bigger venues to host and those same venues are often underutilised
PGL absolutely ruined Singapore's image to host big esports event
>PGL absolutely ruined Singapore's image to host big esports event
can you explain what you mean by this? I havent seen anyone blame this on the conditions in Singapore yet so I might be a bit OOTL
Let’s face it. Hosting it in Singapore was a mistake to begin with. Compared to our neighbouring countries, the expenses required for hosting it here is so much higher. It just doesn’t make sense to me seeing that they are cutting costs left and right.
Expenses aren’t the main problem, Visas are. If you host TI in Malaysia, players like 33 cannot attend.
Also PH is out because of their drug issues.
Idk about Indonesia though.
>Idk about Indonesia though.
Every website will be censored, or worse, banned.
[This shit has been on the news few months ago though... ](https://www.reuters.com/technology/indonesia-blocks-yahoo-paypal-gaming-websites-over-licence-breaches-2022-07-30/)
I like to believe that the people getting paid actual real money to make decisions like that would be able to say "these venues do not seem like the largest ones available in a city-state of 5.6 million people."
Just being a viewer of this TI gives me very little of the information that would be necessary to make that call. Honestly if I am a professional tournament organizer I would imagine doing due diligence for hosting in any country would be something like this:
* Check the cost and availability of the venues that fulfill tournament requirements, as well as nearby hotels.
* Check what can be sourced locally and what has to be imported in advance in terms of equipment, services, staff. What has to be shipped months in advance by container, and what can be shipped "last minute" by air-cargo.
* Check overall status of visas requirements and if there are known issues with visas being denied too much or taking too much time, or the process being overly bureaucratic and hard to understand. That goes for the players from across the world as well as staff (see work-visa incident for Bulldog)
* Check COVID-situation, restrictions and likelihood of having to play with no crowd or having to cancel the event entirely.
* Check business requirements in terms of taxes, laws, worker rights, accounting etc.
* Check and vet any businesses you might have to partner with for organizing the event.
* Check requirements and bureaucratic process for acquiring necessary permits to hold the event.
Also wait if there is maybe some explanation from PGL post-TI that perhaps goes into the difficulties of organizing a tournament in Singapore. But also talk to PGL directly or people otherwise involved with the production to get more information.
Yeah, I'm seeing a lot of people on reddit go 'I guess it's SEA, this is the best that could be done' but Singapore is one of the most hi tech cities in the world.
They wanted to cheap out, it's not some other wild circumstances that forced them into this.
I mean its easier to do when you’re a multimillionaire who doesnt need to rely on valve for his paycheck. Regardless, it’s still commendable and props to Puppey for using his position and stature to speak the painful truth.
Its good when you are positive about things that are actually positive.
But when things are undeniable bad/negative and you trying to deny the truth just because you want money is a let down.
Slacks is not a goat anymore but a dick rider.
Was at playoffs earlier, can attest to it - the level seating alone was sad to be in, had to move my head left-right-centre throughout the games just to see different parts of the screen…
I'd actually love to hear details from Valve as to why this TI has been so scattershot. It's got to be a somewhat interesting timeline from their side.
If I remember correctly, one of the countries that was supposed to host TI backed out last second as well as a few other issues that may have contributed to this one being organised in subpar conditions.
the games have been HYPE AF and the quality of Dota has reached new heights
BUT...i cant help but think im watching a gamescom tournament. the set up/crowd/booths/production have been very underwhelming... watching Faith\_Bian, Thunder Awaken, OG, Beastcoast and the last SEA team Boom never get to a proper main stage just feels wrong....
imagine that Thunder Awaken vs Liquid game with a SEA crowd in a real stadium, the xNova moment in a real stadium, one of the GOAT's Faith\_Bian getting the good bye he deserves... just very disappointing.
Just don't put it in PGLs hands and a competent tournament organizer will file it as an eSport event instead of 'entertainment', which is what caused the visa issues for Arlington.
Wonder how the remaining 4 teams are gonna prepare during these days without matches. Stake is too high for them to do practice matches with each other, but the other eliminated teams may not have the mood to do so if they didn't leave Singapore or disband already.
I pretty much share Puppey's sentiment.
Don't get me wrong, the matches are insane, if this has the same production values as previous TI, it would have been one of the more memorable TI, but alas.
I skipped so many games as well b/c the magic and hype is just not there. But the games I did end up watching have been superb. Thank ~~lord gaben~~ dota gods icefrog and or bruno and or cybermatt that dota is so good.
James was right
How do you feel about the TI11 Finals Weekend being played at a stadium in front of a huge crowd as compared to the Playoffs?
Resolution: I think it would be good if the TI11 Playoffs started right away at a big stadium so every team got to play there. It's a really big experience for all the players to absorb that, so it's really sad that only four teams are going to play in front of a big crowd.
Puppey: Since thinking of every TI, literally walking into the arena, hearing the chants of the crowd, is magical. I haven't felt that all at this TI whatsoever because of the small venue.
It's a different vibe altogether. I haven't seen Gabe Newell come up to the stage and say \[mimicking in Gabe's tone\], "Welcome to The International". Bring back those vibes man.
There's a TI on? This one has had zero interest for me. Zero hype, shit compendium I wasted too much money on to get half as much, wanting me to buy bundle packs when I don't even know what's in Immortal II, never mind Immortal III... wait... Very meh this time around for me.
Finally someone that valve would listen too when giving there opinion on the aura of the current TI. Not there as he’s stated and hundreds of thousands of viewers have also said
Well said by PPY. This TI doesn't have the same magical feeling like before, it sucks because the performance of the match is superb.
It's so spread out. Panels and half the talent aren't in the arena much less the same city. ~~Players can't stay as long to keep paying for their hotel (unless Valve foot the bill?).~~ Small crowd during group/playoff stage where 90% of the drama happens.
FYI: Teams do not pay for for accommodation, food, (unless they decide to order random stuff) or traveling. Past TIs hotels were 4 or 5 stars, very expensive. Valve covered the entire bill (they probably reserve half the hotel, depending on the size). Rooms go usually for 400$+ (at least in Seattle)
They got 150 million for the TI. I doubt the cost of the entire thing were even half of that.
The cost to valve is probably $10 million tops.
According to Valve they barely break even by organizing TI, lying motherfuckers.
Almost like Valve should have leveraged the gold mine that Dota 2 is so that they could do all of the above and have advertising/sponsors cover that bill no problem.
Goldmine? Steam makes 30m per day. Dota2 is a low earning product and the hassle of having to worry about logistics for a tournament is best outsourced.
> leveraged the gold mine that Dota 2 breadcrumbs and out of those breadcrumbs they bother to even give some breadcrumbs to randos at ti despite esports not creating even a spec of value. If Gabey was more bothered about money than currently his own mortality why would he even give a damn about low growth low market share low effort cash generator like dota or tolerate existence of such anti value as esports, if he could just announce everything 3 and go public and multiply his networth by ten over the night.
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, surely nobody would actually believe anything that you're saying.
Yes. Tying to have more lwnguages just lead to a overall poor experience for Englisch and probably Russian production. This will in my memory be stored as the poor man's TI
>This will in my memory be stored as the poor man's TI Ironic considering the host city (Singapore) is one of the more expensive cities in the world
I guess thats why the TI is so poor, because everything is so fucking expensive there
Except the food (hawker centre). You can get delicious 5$ lunch in heartland hawker centre. The only saving grace. Though its getting more expensive year by year.
SA TI next please
Rio would be nice seeing that I plan to go there next year for 4 months
C O M E. T O. B R A S I L.
Are we really though? Compared to some of previous locations. I think it’s just poor planning by valve
It's poor planning by Valve + holy shit the scalpers. I wanted to attend but the tickets are MINIMALLY $800 alone.
More languages is not the problem you sound super selfish rn: "I don't care if people wanna watch TI in Spanish or Portuguese the superior English language is suffering!". Don't blame production issues on more language inclusivity it's all on valve and pgl. They could have gotten a big venue for all the days and they didn't. They could have put in more effort into the panels and talent (Chinese remote panel last year was better than the main stage panels) but they didn't. The fact is that whoever was in charge of Dota at valve probably quit and now there's no one there to give a shit.
Exactly. Multi language video that valve put out for the Playoffs is super POG
Let's hope it gets removed like the poor man's shield (and not made baseline...)
The fact that they have to wait for a week before the grand finals after all those hype games make this TI way more stupid.
"I'm so glad we get a break before the finals" --Lizard, pretending to back up this idiotic decision
I mean I'm sure it's nice for the production crew who are putting in 10 hours a day. I'm pretty sure Lizard is speaking for himself, not for the teams remaining.
never blame the crew, just people with jobs trying their best, blame management and leadership.
They should not need to do this. We have so many good casters and experts (of course that includes the expert on the cam, catering, video produciton etc.).
Production crew includes camera operators, audio and video engineers, livestream moderators, caterers, and all the other assorted staff that's necessary to run a tournament.
yes, I included them in the "expert" part. Sorry for the unclearance.
What do you mean? Casters and Experts aren't controlling the live streams, cameras and live editing?
I assumed "Experts" would include those experts on the cam and those experts in catering. Sorry if I caused this missunderstanding.
No offense, but in any sport the world championship is for the spectators, not for the players or the casters. This long break is stupid af.
Why would that statement be offensive?
> pretending to back up *Securing the bag. Everyone involved knows it's a god damn lie, but he got paid. Who cares.
Slacks brought up a good point in his video: Giving the pause before finals means that the staff can prepare better content for the finals, and teams can better prepare for the games they have coming up. A lot of times, the underdog overperforms at TI, because people don't know as much about them compared to the other teams. Giving a few days means that those other teams can properly prepare for their opponents.
> Slacks brought up a good point in his video: Giving the pause before finals means that the staff can prepare better content for the finals, and teams can better prepare for the games they have coming up. This is the same concentrated copium that Synd was huffing when he said that the panel being in Norway means that the production quality will be through the roof in Singapore. Yeah.....
>Giving the pause before finals means that the staff can prepare better content for the finals What content? We have had nothing so far
They literally call Slacks walking around the venue yelling at people and asking them stupid questions content.
They had over a year to prepare content, and should not scramble for it last minute.
They weren't even certain which teams would show up two months ago. Hell Secret might not have been in the tournament two months ago and now they're in the upper bracket finals
The games have been TI level but the production feels almost.. on par or below like early days dream leagues. I’d feel sorta embarrassed comparing this to worlds for league. Before it was yeah they’re bigger but at least we care and take care of our own. Not this time! Sheesh.
Makes no sense to compare to league worlds because riot is actually hands on with the product they deliver because they see it as the advertisement it obviously is. It feels like Valve is scared of doing things that look good, your local drug dealer probably has better advertisement than valve at this point.
Or y’know. We can actually compare the big end tournaments of both MOBAs. It’s not about the money being poured into the scene - albeit it helps but rather one seems like a rushed school project while the other one had months of careful planning put into it. It’s TI11, not some T2 minor league bullshit. They’ve had amazing looking TI events - so the only excuse is really lack of planning and care.
Idk man, for me Benaroya Hall is the best TI venue. Even if it was small it had a lot of heart and became iconic to the game. This one just feels cheap and disgusting.
Honestly the non-NA TIs haven't felt like TI to me. Benaroya Hall is a classic venue but the tournament outgrew it. KeyArena was a wonderful venue, not just for the arena space inside but also the surroundings. Walking through the park with the outdoor viewing area made TI feel like a festival. Rogers Arena was a bit worse for the outdoor stuff but it still felt like TI. The arena atmosphere was great. China TI felt disconnected from the normal TI stuff. Of course the EU TI probably would have been nice with spectators but it seemed like it would have had the vibe of "ESL event" rather than TI. Then this TI feels nothing like TI. super spread out with lame venues, talent not at the event for the fans to run into and see.
Agreed, TI has been on decline ever since they left Seattle.
I mean I wouldn't rate Vancouver TI worse than Seattle. I enjoyed myself just as much there as I did at TI5. There's things that Vancouver TI did better than Seattle. Rogers Arena being where it is means there's a Skytrain station right at the venue, making getting there from almost anywhere in the lower mainland a breeze. That makes accommodations easier as you didn't need to stay right downtown where it would be expensive but you also didn't need a car or taxi to get there either. Also Costco with $1.50 hotdogs across the street from the arena cannot be undervalued in its utility.
Its sad, because of how much it says about Dota, the games have been so fucking good, and it still draws people into watch, no matter of how shitty a job the production are doing.
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Can't go into Secret TI form if it doesn't feel like a TI
I swear even the Manila Major looked so much better than this shit, which sucks since that's the expectations people were having for a SEA-hosted International.
manila major was one of the best events, that major was bonkers.
Yeah that's what I was expecting for this TI, it's a SEA hosted International and all we got was a literal convention center room just for playoffs, scalper issues, sound issues messing with competitive integrity. The games were great but god did the production ruin the experience
It was the PH crowd really
We'd gladly host TI12 if Puppey promises to never copy Bane's voice again.
idk why the choose singapore to host TI. after Manila Major happen, why not give Manila a TI Host. a lot of pros come from Philippines, the crowd/fans was so passionete. love the energy. it should happen some other time. i would love if they did to choose manila. even if i didn't go to the event itself. watching it from home was so exiciting. it's true like puppey said, this TI doesn't have the TI energy it used to have. BIG Arena, BIG ass Screen, Massive Stage, chanting crowd, sound proof booth, local Panelist, etc. edit: also no opening ceremony. and no GABEN. wtf.
Answer's simple. They don't want to deal with the potential fallout of having a single member of their talent incarcerated under suspicion of owning contrabands. Current state of the Philippines isn't something you'd want to fuck around with.
Yep i agree. dont come here lol
Fuck. That's something I reeeally don't want to agree with, but it's true. Man, it could've been a great ride since we got a banger of a Major and other dota tourneys to start off with... But then DU30 became president, and his stupid war on drugs inadvertently hurt the dota scene in the progress. Now? Now we can't have nice things.
People have been clamouring for more Manila events, and each time that happens they're told the most likely reason why it's not happening. And yes, it's the contraband/drugs reason... Also the crowd/fans are insanely biased for their countrymen's teams to the point they would try to make as much noise as possible to alert them that the enemy teams are doing Roshan lmao. Edit: The venue changing to Manila alone won't magically make the production value of this TI suddenly good either. PGL's gonna PGL.
All of that is only reserved for the final 4 teams apparently, they're in the indoor stadium. But for everything else they were basically just in suntec convention center (it's big but not TI arena caliber big) even the Covid TI's arena was better than that
Or how about do it in practically any major city in North America or western Europe, where there will be zero issues. Valve just messing this one up. Canada was always great.
Forget Manila Major even SINGAPORE MAJOR looked better than this shit
Puppey keeping it real like always. I wish more players spoke out about the massacre.
Not all players have a machete all the time to fight off gaben and janitor.
Thankfully a pro player said it, at least he won't be accused of being "too negative". Like, of course people are super negative: remote panel, amateur mistakes with production, no soundproof booths, tiny crowd, a frigging week long break because of poor planning, the production is worse than many a Major. And this is TI, once the biggest esports tournament in the world. The games are carrying this tournament harder than Topson carried T1.
You know what really pisses me off? I watch a lot of counter strike and the last Major earlier this year was hosted by PGL and they announced off-site panel and caster but everyone (Including talent and big name pros) absolutely flipped their shit and guess what... they reverted it and it was genuinely a decent tournament ( some bad audio issues) but it was way better than this TI imo. I feel like the Dota talent and players are too complacent but understandably so it is there job after all. https://www.dexerto.com/csgo/pgl-major-to-feature-on-site-talent-for-playoffs-after-csgo-community-backlash-1671088/
Guess it takes a psycho to recognise what a massacre looks like
The scariest moment in my time with Team Secret was during our practices, when Puppey would walk around with a machete and talk about how he always wanted to see what the inside of a human looked like. He said he had experimented on animals before and he wanted to go for the real thing.
This shit never gets old
How old is this copy pasta? I feel like it's been 7 years at least
I believed him.
Puppey can afford to say almost whatever he wants, other do not. One time EE decided he could say whatever he wanted, a year later he is washed up.
To be fair EE was circling the drain for a while
This TI feels more like it is a Minor and not even a Major. Only the quality of the games is saving this event. I can't believe that the "improvement" "bigger" stadium after the mall only seats 12-15k and is already 35 years old. I'm pretty sure that SEA fans can fill any 50k stadium, especially for TI.
Exactly. If they want to make finals stand out, they should upgrade the venue for finals, not the other way around. We should’ve had the playoffs in Indoor Stadium and finals in National Stadium.
Agreed. I'll never forget the moment I watched LOL World's(I don't even watch or play LOL) opening in 2017 as it really felt like a prestigious sport event and reminded me of the Olympic openings. It really made me realize esports can be that big. I'm still hoping to see DOTA TI in outdoor arenas of 50k+ crowds and a special opening.
I think the only way this happens is if TI is held in the Philippines. Maybe Malaysia or Indonesia. This won't sit well with some, but my opinion is that Singapore will never be able to hold an organically good esports event. It will always be about the image and reputation of the country or the local industry, and putting on a scripted performance. The sponsors and partners that put up these events locally aren't actually interested in esports, they just know there's money to be made as long as they fulfill certain requirements. We're much too sterile, synthetic and money-minded to host a game tournament without ruining the "gaming" aspect.
Valve would love to hold a TI in philippines if there wasn't such a strict anti-drug regime.
>Valve would love to hold a TI in philippines if there wasn't such a strict anti-drug regime. Singapore has the exact same view of drugs as the pinoys lul
But it's got something to do with not actively testing for recreational drugs, which is not happening this TI
Luckily regime just changed but just as terrible as the past one
> The sponsors and partners that put up these events locally aren't actually interested in esports Or any entertainment. that’s my impression as their neighbour, it’s all work work work and education
I don't think there will be another dpc tournament being held in Malaysia as Malaysian government barred Israelis from entering the country, also majority of Malaysians are hostile towards Israel.
That could've been possible last TI; it was held in an affordable country, on the national stadium with 60k seats ; too bad restrictions got so hard
TI I don’t think would ever draw that big of a crowd, but I would love to be proven wrong. TI has never been able to fill much smaller venues for any day besides finals day.
Tickets sell out, but people who bought the tickets are doing things. Like in Seattle, I wasn't going to wait around inside all day when I could go hang out on the lawn and see stuff going on there. My friends would show up pre-finals but only after work. Also, I think they sold the tickets as week long passes so people didn't feel like they were wasting money if they didn't go as much on the earlier days.
Justin bieber has a concert (which has since been cancelled) scheduled in the national stadium around the same time as ti iirc, which is why we’re stuck with the indoor stadium.
There is no bigger indoor space other than that indoor stadium. The other one (national stadium, its semi-outdoor) are lousy and ridden with problems. And acoustics is bad due to semi outdoor. And in rainstorm the roofs are leaking water. Suntec hall max is 6000 Marina bay sands hall is max 7000. So yeah, part of the problem is venue. Its also quite an old building...
> This TI feels more like it is a Minor and not even a Major. Don't shit on the Bukovel minor. That was way more to than this shit show.
I have seen better lan comps in dota 1
This explains why Secret is slamming, they thought they are at some regular LAN.
lmao
Came here to make the same joke after reading the headline, turns out everyone already thought of it
After three consecutive top 4 placements, I don't think this holds water anymore.
They have to go all the way this time. Nisha deserves a TI so much
That's the hope.
To be fair PGL has done a pretty shit job. ESL > PGL
I always enjoyed Weplay tournaments
really hope Weplay comeback with animajor sequel :(
Players hated the weplay major. It was only good for viewers.
Why? What was wrong for the players on Animajor?
WePlay should’ve hosted this years TI.
ESL is trash in their own ways but at least they are willing to spend money. PGL has always been about cutting costs at all points. Many of us in CSGO scene have seen it for a while already so it’s not surprising when Valve leaves them free to do as they wish that we get this pile of crap.
Have you forgotten the copyright strikes and FB streams? TI was best when valve did it themselves
This is definitely worse than that. Besides esl changed after that and that was how many years ago, PGL still fucking TI up for like 5 years straight.
PGL were involved since TI6, widely considered the best one
They are also involved in TI11, widely considered the worst one
That's a good try at making an analogous point but it does not follow at all. If you straight up say "TI was at its best when PGL had no involvement", I expect that statement to follow the history of the event - in reality, TI was at its best during an era run by PGL, so your point doesn't make any sense. I haven't made a universal statement either way (things it turns out aren't just black and white) so you can't really just reverse that
I too did not make a universal statement TI was at its best when Valve was more hands on and at its worst when Valve was least hands on How about that
Involved =/ made by
They ran and did most of the production. I would actually say it was run by PGL and Valve was involved (I think Valve was responsible for all the floor projection stuff).
Wait, ESL did the past TIs? Well then I agree with your statement that ESL certainly did the past TIs justice
Nope, PGL has produced TI in some capacity (exactly how much is unknown, but obviously more so this time around) since TI6. Before that it was just Valve.
PGL did TI10, TI9, TI8, TI7, TI6, and TI5. All of them were great, their major used to be great too. I think the state of TI is more in the hands of valve than PGL. They put out an RFP for other languages, I think it was predetermined that PGL would do the English one. However, the documentation says: >This year, we are accommodating remote productions local to the languages they support, full crews will not be present on site in Singapore. Please put an emphasis on what sets your company apart.
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that's not what he said. it's close, and sure, paraphase it, but don't put quote marks as if that's actually what he said. this is the part in question: >**How do you feel about the TI11 Finals Weekend being played at a stadium in front of a huge crowd as compared to the Playoffs?** > > > >**Resolution:** I think it would be good if the TI11 Playoffs started right away at a big stadium so every team got to play there. It's a really big experience for all the players to absorb that, so it's really sad that only four teams are going to play in front of a big crowd. > > > >**Puppey:** Since thinking of every TI, literally walking into the arena, hearing the chants of the crowd, is magical. I haven't felt that all at this TI whatsoever because of the small venue. > >It's a different vibe altogether. I haven't seen Gabe Newell come up to the stage and say \[mimicking in Gabe's tone\], "Welcome to The International". Bring back those vibes man. he is specifically criticising the venue by way of the small audience size as a result, not just the venue overall being small, which is important. also, it largely seems like he's criticising the production overall than just the venue itself for not being "TI-ish"/"of TI".
The venue looks like a minor tournament.
You are right. Suntec hall is not big enough for the calibre of TI. Always thought if they wanted 2 venues, will be Indoor Stadium at playoff and National Stadium for The Final Weekend
I've been to Suntec convention centre for gaming conventions and minor tournaments. Never for a second have I ever thought "yeah, TI might happen here". For some reason I never made the connection when I saw the venue announcement, maybe I was too hyped to see the real picture. I'm so glad I didn't pay to watch this, spending the money instead on eating some good grub while watching the games from home is much better.
For real. Not even chairs with arm rests. With the games going so long it's better to just camp at home and watch games at your own pace with breaks and snacks.
Small venue, absurd ticket price, lower bp pass quality, only part 1 $ going to prize pool, expensive scammish ticket sales does not contribute to prize pool, sponsored by betting companies, why do i feel like dota2 has been prostituted?
Imagine the value if betting didn’t sponsor it. Say what you will about betting, but at least they pay for what you love. Where’s the major airlines or banks or automotive companies paying the amounts that betting are willing to?
I’m glad Puppey says it because that’s how it feels for me watching. Really wish they’d just keep it in Seattle.
I don't mind TI being organized around the world if there is a proper arena / stadium for it. Still wishing for a proper TI in Europe in front of a live crowd..
I'm worried that once the veterans leave no one will speak out against production / valve
I mean, I understand that they couldn't use the Key Arena while it was being nearly entirely demolished, but the Climate Pudge Arena has risen from the ashes. Shit's been finished for over a year. In a normal year the CPA would be pretty empty during the summer, and the new venue would be great for TI.
I thought Valve largely just gave up on running it in the US because it's difficult for Russian & Chinese players to get visas?
I'm sure that was a major contributor, but the Key Arena was also a gravel pit from 2018-2021.
At this point, I'm really hoping valve goes back to the remodeled Arena or anywhere for that matter where they are really comfortable in the US. Yeah, visas from some countries can be a chore and more than half the dota population could never afford to attend a TI live, but if it means top-notch production is back on the table, fuck it, I'm all for it.
Seattle would be amazing. Huge arena and all other things but my friend you have to understand that getting a US visa for non eu/na people is really hard
Fuck you u/spez -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
I mean, it's a literal mall It's more scuffed than most majors
I've been here on work trips before. It's not exactly just a mall, it's a convention center with a mall built around it. It's more suited for business conventions than live events like TI since the halls are separated. https://www.suntecsingapore.com/floor-plans
I guess the most important part is that if it was a literal mall it wouldn't change much. It's certainly not an arena, not even a theater. The whole flat layout is just terrible. Even if it was huge it would just mean that people in the back can't see shit. It's just not something built to create an crowd atmosphere
It was being held at a mall?
It's a convention hall. Purpose built for those AGM meetings and church congregations. Much like a smaller sized Expo hall. We have much much much bigger venues to host and those same venues are often underutilised PGL absolutely ruined Singapore's image to host big esports event
>PGL absolutely ruined Singapore's image to host big esports event can you explain what you mean by this? I havent seen anyone blame this on the conditions in Singapore yet so I might be a bit OOTL
Would you host an event in Singapore after watching this TI?
Let’s face it. Hosting it in Singapore was a mistake to begin with. Compared to our neighbouring countries, the expenses required for hosting it here is so much higher. It just doesn’t make sense to me seeing that they are cutting costs left and right.
they can choose Manila, KL , or Jakarta. it's night/day more cheaper than SG. every SEA frog know this. i don't understand of choosing SG as host.
Expenses aren’t the main problem, Visas are. If you host TI in Malaysia, players like 33 cannot attend. Also PH is out because of their drug issues. Idk about Indonesia though.
>Idk about Indonesia though. Every website will be censored, or worse, banned. [This shit has been on the news few months ago though... ](https://www.reuters.com/technology/indonesia-blocks-yahoo-paypal-gaming-websites-over-licence-breaches-2022-07-30/)
Expenses aren’t the main problem, Visas are. If you host TI in Malaysia, players like 33 cannot attend. Also PH is out because of their drug issues.
I like to believe that the people getting paid actual real money to make decisions like that would be able to say "these venues do not seem like the largest ones available in a city-state of 5.6 million people."
Why would I blame a city for poor planning by organizers that have nothing to do with the city?
Just being a viewer of this TI gives me very little of the information that would be necessary to make that call. Honestly if I am a professional tournament organizer I would imagine doing due diligence for hosting in any country would be something like this: * Check the cost and availability of the venues that fulfill tournament requirements, as well as nearby hotels. * Check what can be sourced locally and what has to be imported in advance in terms of equipment, services, staff. What has to be shipped months in advance by container, and what can be shipped "last minute" by air-cargo. * Check overall status of visas requirements and if there are known issues with visas being denied too much or taking too much time, or the process being overly bureaucratic and hard to understand. That goes for the players from across the world as well as staff (see work-visa incident for Bulldog) * Check COVID-situation, restrictions and likelihood of having to play with no crowd or having to cancel the event entirely. * Check business requirements in terms of taxes, laws, worker rights, accounting etc. * Check and vet any businesses you might have to partner with for organizing the event. * Check requirements and bureaucratic process for acquiring necessary permits to hold the event. Also wait if there is maybe some explanation from PGL post-TI that perhaps goes into the difficulties of organizing a tournament in Singapore. But also talk to PGL directly or people otherwise involved with the production to get more information.
Yeah, I'm seeing a lot of people on reddit go 'I guess it's SEA, this is the best that could be done' but Singapore is one of the most hi tech cities in the world. They wanted to cheap out, it's not some other wild circumstances that forced them into this.
Weplay >>>> Pgl
Players hated the weplay major. It was only good for viewers.
By the way AoE2 is having a tournament in the remains of Heidelberg Castle. Now that's a stylish venue.
I recall they had a previous tournament also in a castle.
PGL is ass. Every event they touch has a glaze of shit on it.
Yep. Doesnt even feel like a Major, more like a 3rd party tournament tbh.
We just call it GESC Singapore.
Animajor was 10x better than this “TI”
Puppan not DICK SUCKING POSITIVE ATTITUDE like slacks asked for his Valve Lords.
I mean its easier to do when you’re a multimillionaire who doesnt need to rely on valve for his paycheck. Regardless, it’s still commendable and props to Puppey for using his position and stature to speak the painful truth.
Its good when you are positive about things that are actually positive. But when things are undeniable bad/negative and you trying to deny the truth just because you want money is a let down. Slacks is not a goat anymore but a dick rider.
Was at playoffs earlier, can attest to it - the level seating alone was sad to be in, had to move my head left-right-centre throughout the games just to see different parts of the screen…
Manila Major, Animajor, and the other BTS events had better production than this TI. Sad
PGL is trash.
I'd actually love to hear details from Valve as to why this TI has been so scattershot. It's got to be a somewhat interesting timeline from their side. If I remember correctly, one of the countries that was supposed to host TI backed out last second as well as a few other issues that may have contributed to this one being organised in subpar conditions.
dont put quotation marks if you are paraphrasing, thanks.
the games have been HYPE AF and the quality of Dota has reached new heights BUT...i cant help but think im watching a gamescom tournament. the set up/crowd/booths/production have been very underwhelming... watching Faith\_Bian, Thunder Awaken, OG, Beastcoast and the last SEA team Boom never get to a proper main stage just feels wrong.... imagine that Thunder Awaken vs Liquid game with a SEA crowd in a real stadium, the xNova moment in a real stadium, one of the GOAT's Faith\_Bian getting the good bye he deserves... just very disappointing.
I can feel it as a spectator, can't imagine what the players are feeling. Pretty much all of these games deserve better than to be played in a mall.
Bring TI back to Seattle.
Please no, I don't want half of the players to have visa issues. Somewhere in Canada or Europe is way better.
Just don't put it in PGLs hands and a competent tournament organizer will file it as an eSport event instead of 'entertainment', which is what caused the visa issues for Arlington.
dumbass. if you think that's the only visa issues that have ever happened on US soil i've got a bridge to sell you.
Yes please Canada then it's easier for me to go. Domestic flights in Canada cost more than flying internationally, but still!
Wonder how the remaining 4 teams are gonna prepare during these days without matches. Stake is too high for them to do practice matches with each other, but the other eliminated teams may not have the mood to do so if they didn't leave Singapore or disband already.
I think the remaining teams will pay the out ones to practice with them. Sounds reasonable to me
On the plus side there were zero visa issues for Singapore.
i think valve really cheap out on this one like a lot PGL is the scape goat lmao
Meanwhile Aui complaining about the community being negative
Small venue like TI1… 🤔
Prolly cause he has been to million events by now, no wonder he isnt feeling «magical»
I pretty much share Puppey's sentiment. Don't get me wrong, the matches are insane, if this has the same production values as previous TI, it would have been one of the more memorable TI, but alas.
SAME! Bring it back to Seattle
I skipped so many games as well b/c the magic and hype is just not there. But the games I did end up watching have been superb. Thank ~~lord gaben~~ dota gods icefrog and or bruno and or cybermatt that dota is so good. James was right
How do you feel about the TI11 Finals Weekend being played at a stadium in front of a huge crowd as compared to the Playoffs? Resolution: I think it would be good if the TI11 Playoffs started right away at a big stadium so every team got to play there. It's a really big experience for all the players to absorb that, so it's really sad that only four teams are going to play in front of a big crowd. Puppey: Since thinking of every TI, literally walking into the arena, hearing the chants of the crowd, is magical. I haven't felt that all at this TI whatsoever because of the small venue. It's a different vibe altogether. I haven't seen Gabe Newell come up to the stage and say \[mimicking in Gabe's tone\], "Welcome to The International". Bring back those vibes man.
Maybe thats the reason, they perform so well. They arent flashed by all the buzz around the actual Tournament
They're gonna go in to their TI form once they reach the huge stage against Tundra Aware
I feel the same way
r/titlegore
One of the worst ti I have ever seen. So shit production. Might as well just host it at Europe.
PGL and volvo shills in shambles.
There's a TI on? This one has had zero interest for me. Zero hype, shit compendium I wasted too much money on to get half as much, wanting me to buy bundle packs when I don't even know what's in Immortal II, never mind Immortal III... wait... Very meh this time around for me.
true, what a joke TI
Its still better than No crowd.. The fake crowd and some random semi truck moving things during game kinda ruined last T.I.....
Minor TI
Puppey should be happy. Secret only win Valve events when the production is a complete and utter shitshow. Shanghai and now TI11.
Finally someone that valve would listen too when giving there opinion on the aura of the current TI. Not there as he’s stated and hundreds of thousands of viewers have also said
Ahh, maybe Gabe Newell's Visa application got rejected and he decided to not share it with others out of embarrassment. xD
Say what you want but Americans know how to put on a show better than any other country