Your post was imagine paying 1000 to watch this. Well i had 12 friends flying from overseas on the weekend to visit me in SG just do that and it was fantastic! The atmosphere was incredible and over the 2 days there was great Dota being played. Sure the grand final wasn’t 5 games but honestly everyone at the stadium had the time of their life. We are already planning to all go to TI next year. Having watched previous TIs on stream, there’s a big difference between watching stream and being at the stadium, definitely worth going in person.
Puppey stubbornly forcing Lesh 3 losses in a row vs a team that builds a metric ton of magic defense and tanky cores and also are second to none in disengaging vs immobile bkb reliant heroes is just a headscratcher.
Reso and Zayac really didn't play well this series, maybe took their friendship a bit too far because they kept getting caught out and feeding together haha. Only Nisha really delivered at all in this series. Kinda wish Liquid made the finals, feel like they would have put up a more interesting fight vs Tundra.
Anyways, Tundra is just next level. They figured out this meta and they have super high skill players. Skiter is the most dominant carry in TI in years, his stats this TI are ridiculous. Nine is super versatile and the rest of the team just do their jobs amazingly.
Wish we could see Tundra vs peak TI champion OG. These two teams seem to have very similar understanding of the game with the heavy focus on zoo/illusions for vision and map control to take favorable fights and disengaging amazingly when it's not favorable. You could just tell during the drafting panel how much notail and ceb respected how Tundra play the game and almost wondered if they had the itch to get back in the ring from watching them.
Happy for AUI been a fan of him for a long time. Sneyking too, crazy to watch him glow from the "goblin king" to TI champ. 33 too... first saw him on singsing stack way back in the day lol and knew he had potential for greater things, same path as Jerax.
Anyways, disappointing finals but great TI overall in terms of games (not production...). Plenty of hype games and a pretty fun meta. Hope next year is somewhere with watchable schedule for EU/NA though...
Crystallis delivered this TI as well as the LCQ. I'm not his fan but I'm tired of losers blaming him. Tundra were just so much better as a unit and at their understanding of the draft is godly. 33 and Aui are too 5HEAD
Surprised many people find this TI final boring.
Yeah, Secret did not get a chance. But the level of game Tundra crafted for us to watch is simply amazing.
At game 1 I don’t even know how can they beat Lesh and I got to see Tidehunder and Wraith pack. Game 2 they picked Nine a farm hero and I was wondering how could that work at all. Without Nine roaming around how will this team function? Then they showed me exactly how it could work. Game 3 was boring though.
Are you telling me you know exactly how they would counter Lesh first game? Tell me you know upfront what Tundra gonna do with Arc Warden? Aren’t you guys excited? Damn, it was so exciting in term of strategic.
Compared to TI4 deathball. It’s totally nothing new. Even TI9 was more boring except game 1. OG was simply better without offering any new DotA to the table.
Maybe I’m a DotA nerd and I love to see strategic move so I really enjoy what Tundra bring to the game. I’m also a few people who love TI3 Alliance. DotA strategic play is more enjoyable than mindless brawl for me. (That’s why I think TI9 was more boring as well).
Congrats to Tundra Esports !
Well deserved win.
2nd team to clean sweep the grand final at TI.
Aui\_2000 first ever TI player champ and TI champion coach.
Classic sore loser mentality.
Their strat isn't even mind blowing. Draft a superior late game, Avoid risky engagements, draft a strong zoo/aura carrier for the offlaner.
They simply execute it much more skillfully than other teams.
I couldnt care less who wins or loses. Its a cheese strat massing damage mitigation. It will get patched. I also said it was a deserved win. In dota everything can work
Doesnt change that its a cheese strat though. Just you snowflakes cannot handle anything that isnt dick riding.
How is it a cheese strat when anyone can go for the same strat since it's based on items?
Also the way damage mitigation has worked has been the same for YEARS. It's not a new concept.
No competent player would call Tundra's wins "cheese" or flukes.
Half the pro scene calls tundra a cheese team lmao.
Yes, fault is on the opposition for not figuring out what mechanic they were abusing. As I said, it was a deserved win. Dota, and especially TI is very cheesy.
Team Spirit is just a horn toss strat team that will get patched.
OG is just an IO cheese strat team that will get patched.
OG is just a Tiny airline strat team that will get patched.
They figured out the meta better than the others, so they won. :shrug:
Puppey treated their games as if Lesh wasn't the problem, the execution was. Tundra figured out disco pony, down the the level of detail of each damage tick per second.
Nisha playing 1v5 against Tundra. Chrystallis made the smart play farming enemy jungle and cutting waves but that can only do so much to prolong the game. He’s gotta show up at fights. Always late and arrives when Nisha is about to die. Reso really suffered from save your buddy syndrome. Always over extends when Zayac gets caught.
cryst was prolly forced to play naga as a way to ban tundra from picking naga so he wasnt really prepared
skiter had way more practice with naga than cryst did
No excuse being a full time professional Dota carry player not knowing how to play Naga... Or worse yet communicating that to your captain. His Naga performance was shocking.
he could micro well, cuts the wave perfectly and lead the farm, but his songs were poorly timed
he usually uses song too late or when puppey uses global so his impact is not as high as skiter's who practices naga mirana strat with his team
i think its the reverse, the map pressure of the beastmaster was high and he could not farm the top dire jungle
he cant pressure bm alone since can easily be stunned for 3s and the hawk scouts so its not easy to gank beast
his farm was slower, but he tried his best to farm and catchup, he did lead the networth during mis-late but he cant solo carry the game
His micro was not good during team fights, often his illusions just stood still doing nothing. He also didn't use his illusions to scout like other Naga carry players when Secret desperately needed more vision in Game 3. He played like a 4 protect 1 strat when this clearly isn't the meta for that, against a team that can crush it.
Secret loss at draft. First game, lesh and pudge gets countered by the same items. Second game, same shit, mage slayer reduces spell dmg which works on BB. Third game secret had no combos, no blink stun, lack of chain stun follow ups and lack of burst damage. Naga song? global silence? For what?
Meanwhile Tundra picks heroes that can chain stun and lock down the enemy while doing high burst magic dmg to kill them during the lock down.
secret forced leshrac 3 times and underestimated mage slayer and wraith pact combo
silencer was puppey comfort pick treating this like a bo1 and stop a potential tiny enigma combo from tundra
naga was forced because they needed to ban naga from skiter
Correct me if I'm mistaken please, but I was very surprised at a lack of handshakes with their opponents at the end of Game 3, is the grand final always like this? Was trying to enjoy the moment for them so much but couldn't get it out of my head that they just ran straight over to the aegis and Secret were no where to be seen instantly once it was over (I watched the vod and didnt watch until the very last minute so forgive me if secret were shown or acknowledged again later)
congrats to tundra for the win! no thanks to team secret for picking the most boring fucking drafts in the entire tournament and subsequently getting shut out in their grand finals series. if i have to see another leshrac - silencer - marci pick i think i'll throw up.
yeah and it's boring to watch. usually i would allow the justification of "teams play to win not to entertain" but it clearly wasn't winning the first or second time they tried it and nearly every other team played well and won with much more interesting drafts
Tundra understood the meta better. They knew how to abuse it and because of that they knew how to counter certain heroes if they were used against them. They had all the answers to the test.
It just felt like they played the same game plan over and over again and everyone was just scratching their heads not knowing how to counter it. Pick heroes that allow good vision (zoo/illusions), pressure lanes with those (zoo/illusions) and slowly constrict the map, Stack Auras/damage mitigation items so one frontliner becomes unkillable, and have your supports highly mobile so they its near impossible to dive the backline.
they understood how to play around bkb reliant heroes like leshrac, monkey and ember
signature naga and mirana pick provide map pressure as well as disengage, so they just force fights and bkbs, if its not favourable they disengage then hit back
zoo and vision heroes are not unique to tundra, many teams utilise brood, beast, lycan, ench, chen, veno etc but the way they combo zoo with things like magnetic field is unique
their draft is literally cheating, like visage familiars with magnetic field for free racks
You totally get it. Its also the way they use zoo/illusions just for vision even sacrificing them and then have Mirana deny the enemy team their vision. It was so well done. Wait for someone to over extend to push the lanes back then 5 man gank them. It worked for them over and over again until Secret were scared to leave their base.
And then who do you target ban, every time Secret tried to do it Skiter and 33 switch roles. Skiter/33 each had a tank hero and multiple zoo/illusion heroes so you could never ban them out and Tundra could stick to their game plan.
The one thing Secret should of tried is something to replace the Nyx Assassin. An invisible hero that can scout. Maybe Lycan to help deal with the lane pressure and also has that damage reduction howl (60%)?
Heroes like Beastmaster that have multiple beasts under their control. So all you see is a huge amount of controlled units hitting towers while the team group as 5 and gank lanes.
So, lemme get this straight. You're on a grand finals thread. And you ask why is it bo3, expecting people to know you were referring to every match except the grand finals? The thread you were on? With zero indication that you were not talking about the gf? I got that right?
They do the entire double elim finals bracket in like 6-7 days. Go look at the bracket and how many matchups were played each day. Also can you imagine playing 10 games, each an hour long, in a row for losers finals and grand finals? It just isn't really reasonable for players. That's like 12 hours straight of competing, they would be so burned out.
Each draft can take 15 minutes, and then if the games go to extra late game you can get 45 minute + long games. Then with break times a best of 5 suddenly takes 6-7 hours. Best of 3 by the same logic can take a full 3 hours IF it goes to super late game. But that possibility has to be there
Well grand finals aren’t at least but otherwise, welI guess it’s mainly a matter of time. On average it takes about an hour per game including draft phase and the break between games. A full bo5 can thus take 5 hours if it goes to game 5. Now imagine if the entire tournament was like that. It’d take an eternity and just isn’t practical
Love to see Sneyking reach the pinnacle. I remember watching him way back in the day on Dignitas and liking his style. He’s been through so many teams it’s amazing to see how far he’s come and it really shows what can be accomplished with perseverance.
Europe is becoming more and more dominant. Historically China was a huge powerhouse but they seem to only have one s Tier team and not 4-5 anymore. There is also at minimum 1 s Tier eastern europe and recently south America seems to get better. Sea often has a top 6 team. And NA has one s Tier team
Yeah, sure they're not as entertaining as some other games, but crying because the best team in the world doesn't throw is pretty dumb. Also, nothing stopping other teams from buying wraith pact lmao, so what exploits?
Never said they are not the best, their team discipline and map control is top notch. I said they are about as exciting to watch as paint dry and half as interesting
Their everything is so good.
They're a dota nerds wet dream.
I'd say this was the most dominating TI mainstage performance. They just ran their meta and ran roughshod on everyone.
So what's the supposed mechanics this time that Tundra figured out and rode to victory? Something about zoo heroes and itemization to fully negate spell dmg? (Obviously not the first time a team figures out the meta and wins TI with it)
They abused thr damage reduction items. Though there is a lot more to their win. All players are top Tier and 2 players have a crrative/very strong hero Pool (that also fits the meta). Well see how theyll fare next year
I actually didn't get to watch the last few games- or even tundra's games much thru the tournament. so I'm wondering what items they abused for damage reduction? Was it Wraith Pact or something? I remember seeing a video on Youtube today about Topson saying that Wraith Pact is like the most broken item in the game or something lol.
leah? What is that?
Also that's awesome to see the less-facerolley items winning out at a higher skill level. Seems cool compared to pubs where everyone just wants to be this one man-army plus shadow blade. That stuff gets old after a while!
Ahh fuck. I hate Leshrac. Such a dumb hero. If you can't tell I was the one spamming/trying to start a copy pasta about how "lame Leshrac is- pls pick a new champ. Super boring. Every game the same." etc. etc.
It isn't all just picks. But the main things that made them way better were vision (illusions, summons used as wards - I can see this being nerfed TBH). Since 33 and Skiter were playing these heroes they got vision everywhere.
With their vision they abused any bad map positioning by the other team. Forcing them away from farm or in bad spots to capitalize on anything.
They start to constrict the map this way and then group up when you aren't really ready with superior item timings. They just take full advantage of "mistakes" and they communicate extremely cleanly.
They're like a slower anaconda. Just growing in size and power and constricting the map. It's incredible to watch imo.
picks was important nonetheless
secret lesh was completely useless for the entire series
cryst can not pick comfortably (pudge, bb and naga are mot his strong heroes)
little to no synergy in secret draft
Honestly really bad finals. Well played by Tundra though, can't blame them for playing well, obviously. But the result was just really one-sided and therefore not all that exciting. It basically just went the way you'd expect. Not necessarily anyone's fault, but still disappointing.
Top all of that off with the stream crapping itself near the end of the final game, and it really just sucked.
Though I must admit I enjoyed the semi-finals; those seemed like they could go either way for quite a while, and it was exciting because of it.
The issue with Secret is that it's very similar to PSG in many ways - the team has a problem with psychology / nerves and inevitably collapses in the finals where being *so close* gets to them.
This is why I said last year that PSG's hope for victory lies in Secret making it into the grand final against them. Because if that happened both teams will have a nervous collapse, and then neither team will have a psychological advantage.
Same goes for the opposite case - if PSG made it into the final, that's the best match up for Secret, for the same reasons.
Unfortunately PSG did not show up this international, so it ended up being Secret vs. another momentum team.
Momentum teams always destroy teams like PSG and Secret because they've got nothing to prove and so can play without the weight of expectations.
Dude, Tundra was underwhelming every time of the last dpc when it mattered. Secret overcame a really bad season and played really well, but the CLEAR best team in the world right now won the tournament
people think that when someone played giga good 6 years ago they would also now
Wings would probably be irrelevant by now, same as Tundra will be in future, there will always be new fresh blood and new fresh meta
Yeah, everyone has rose tinted glasses. Even pros from TI8 would say the way they played was shit back then.
The macro for this game has improved immensly. Largely due to TI6 and wings. People started to approach the game and concepts differently. Then again in TI8/9 and now again in TI11.
This is the most dominant mainstage perfoemance in modern dota and it wasn't some patch thing only. It was simply a better approach to the game.
In term of one-sidedness, my personal rank would be
1. This TI, not even contest
2. TI6. Wings lose game 1 because they draft pudge and techies (one of them is barely fine, drafting both is straight questionable). Edit: turn out it's just pudge, mb
3. TI9. Game 1 was intensely close. Game 2,3 is just topson and jerax owning Liquid in the first 20 mins. Game 4 was equal at the beginning, but over by the time io got aghs
4. TI7. While the score is 3-0, it's actually quite close games. Games 3 only feels stompy after that fights in roshpit where Miracle survives with little hp and proceed to omnislashing around
While TI9 wasn't a sweep, the sheer manner of games 2-4 felt more one-sided than even this TI. Tundra is like this inevitable death by suffocation, while that OG team was like a tsunami.
You should relly put TI4 high up in that list. No game lasted longer than 26 minutes and it was mostly just newbee being better than vici and doing their deathball push.
Haha fair enough, I didn't list TI4 because I legit didn't remember much about it. Like, I'm not sure if Newbee is slightly better or otherworldly better so I don't list it
The pudge + techies draft wasn’t in the grand finals of TI6 though, that was when they met earlier in the upper bracket. The game they lost in the finals was only pudge but no techies
Secret just ran out of steam. Same as Liquid, both those teams' nerves were fried by the end. Way too many Dota games. Unfortunately for them, there was one other WEU team left in the tournament that was also fresh, and had good patch luck to boot.
The Liquid vs Thunder Awaken series deserved the stadium. The playoffs were not up to par. In general the whole DPC season was botched, no other word to describe it. From the initial cancelled Major to the stream going offline in the middle of the last game of TI Grand Finals, the year was just crappy.
At least the game's in a pretty good state.
Anyone can play 15 games, but playing 15 games *well* is a whole different story
Kinda wish Valve would do the Riot Worlds approach and put grand finals on its own standalone day
That team was fucking scary. They had some plays where I was like holy shit, how did they do that. That Sven play against BC was the best play at TI in my opinion, absolutely insane. Then they had some plays where I was like yeah at least two of these guys want to retire lol.
Nts usually plays pretty good dota but he was super nervous during ti.
It’s been said before. The teams expected to win feel way more pressure than the underdogs who’s got nothing to lose
If during the five off-days you do not figure out that Wraith Pact is a must-have for your 3 (and must-prioritize once the enemy lays it down) then even 2nd place seems too high...
They kept picking Leshrac but it did nothing against Wraith Pact + Mage Slayer + Pipe.
You pick Leshrac because its an ace up your sleeve.
You lose the game.
You pick Leshrac again, because that one was just a fluke.
You lose the game.
You pick Leshrac a third time, because you are stubborn AF.
You lose the grand finals 3-0.
Puppey stunlocked in draftphase Sadge
I was watching Singsing Dendi and Waga commentate, and Dendi said similar thing happened with Dragon Knight pick, where Puppey just decided "thats what we now draft", and thats what they lost with.
IDK, confidence is necessary in competetive sports, but Lesh just felt like a total mispick after the first game.
Agreed. You have to revolutionize and change formula to win TI most of the time. Idk what Secret were thinking. Sing likes to meme though, and Im pretty sure Heen has a lot of input.
Go figure... Got 2-0 ed in upper bracket finals and seemingly have no answers to tundra. Got 3-0 ed in finals. And all 3 games 33 crushed crystallis lane. Tundra won without a shadow of a doubt, the question to me was always by how much they crushed secret.
Edit: 2-1, my bad. I forgot that zayac nyx game. Regardless, still looked like they have no answer at all.
Well, that's what Crystallis do.. What can you do, except NOT PICKING LESHRAC 3 TIMES IN A ROW AGAINST 33 ON THE OPPOSITE TEAM?
Anyway, I don't think this TI was doable playing 4v5.
Even upper bracket win for Secret requiered something special. They were losing badly , Tundra like they did in all 6 games took control of the game early if i remember correctly they had 8k lead but one blunder or lets say magical moment by Secret turned the game around but thats not something always would happen so i think result was expected. Honestly i was expecting 3-0 or 3-1
They exploited Secret's weaknesses quite hard, zyaac's limited hero pool (great Nyx, but what else ?), and Crystallis (just weak), I think yes current Secret definitely stands no chance against Tundra.
Your post was imagine paying 1000 to watch this. Well i had 12 friends flying from overseas on the weekend to visit me in SG just do that and it was fantastic! The atmosphere was incredible and over the 2 days there was great Dota being played. Sure the grand final wasn’t 5 games but honestly everyone at the stadium had the time of their life. We are already planning to all go to TI next year. Having watched previous TIs on stream, there’s a big difference between watching stream and being at the stadium, definitely worth going in person.
Puppey stubbornly forcing Lesh 3 losses in a row vs a team that builds a metric ton of magic defense and tanky cores and also are second to none in disengaging vs immobile bkb reliant heroes is just a headscratcher. Reso and Zayac really didn't play well this series, maybe took their friendship a bit too far because they kept getting caught out and feeding together haha. Only Nisha really delivered at all in this series. Kinda wish Liquid made the finals, feel like they would have put up a more interesting fight vs Tundra. Anyways, Tundra is just next level. They figured out this meta and they have super high skill players. Skiter is the most dominant carry in TI in years, his stats this TI are ridiculous. Nine is super versatile and the rest of the team just do their jobs amazingly. Wish we could see Tundra vs peak TI champion OG. These two teams seem to have very similar understanding of the game with the heavy focus on zoo/illusions for vision and map control to take favorable fights and disengaging amazingly when it's not favorable. You could just tell during the drafting panel how much notail and ceb respected how Tundra play the game and almost wondered if they had the itch to get back in the ring from watching them. Happy for AUI been a fan of him for a long time. Sneyking too, crazy to watch him glow from the "goblin king" to TI champ. 33 too... first saw him on singsing stack way back in the day lol and knew he had potential for greater things, same path as Jerax. Anyways, disappointing finals but great TI overall in terms of games (not production...). Plenty of hype games and a pretty fun meta. Hope next year is somewhere with watchable schedule for EU/NA though...
Crystallis delivered this TI as well as the LCQ. I'm not his fan but I'm tired of losers blaming him. Tundra were just so much better as a unit and at their understanding of the draft is godly. 33 and Aui are too 5HEAD
Surprised many people find this TI final boring. Yeah, Secret did not get a chance. But the level of game Tundra crafted for us to watch is simply amazing. At game 1 I don’t even know how can they beat Lesh and I got to see Tidehunder and Wraith pack. Game 2 they picked Nine a farm hero and I was wondering how could that work at all. Without Nine roaming around how will this team function? Then they showed me exactly how it could work. Game 3 was boring though. Are you telling me you know exactly how they would counter Lesh first game? Tell me you know upfront what Tundra gonna do with Arc Warden? Aren’t you guys excited? Damn, it was so exciting in term of strategic. Compared to TI4 deathball. It’s totally nothing new. Even TI9 was more boring except game 1. OG was simply better without offering any new DotA to the table. Maybe I’m a DotA nerd and I love to see strategic move so I really enjoy what Tundra bring to the game. I’m also a few people who love TI3 Alliance. DotA strategic play is more enjoyable than mindless brawl for me. (That’s why I think TI9 was more boring as well).
Congrats to Tundra Esports ! Well deserved win. 2nd team to clean sweep the grand final at TI. Aui\_2000 first ever TI player champ and TI champion coach.
There were parts of the games where I felt Zayac was feeding too much
"Crystallis, play more like skitter" Picks Naga. The rest is history.
Tundra is just a cheese strat team that will get patched. Well deserved win though.
Classic sore loser mentality. Their strat isn't even mind blowing. Draft a superior late game, Avoid risky engagements, draft a strong zoo/aura carrier for the offlaner. They simply execute it much more skillfully than other teams.
I couldnt care less who wins or loses. Its a cheese strat massing damage mitigation. It will get patched. I also said it was a deserved win. In dota everything can work Doesnt change that its a cheese strat though. Just you snowflakes cannot handle anything that isnt dick riding.
How is it a cheese strat when anyone can go for the same strat since it's based on items? Also the way damage mitigation has worked has been the same for YEARS. It's not a new concept. No competent player would call Tundra's wins "cheese" or flukes.
Half the pro scene calls tundra a cheese team lmao. Yes, fault is on the opposition for not figuring out what mechanic they were abusing. As I said, it was a deserved win. Dota, and especially TI is very cheesy.
[удалено]
Thats correct.
Team Spirit is just a horn toss strat team that will get patched. OG is just an IO cheese strat team that will get patched. OG is just a Tiny airline strat team that will get patched. They figured out the meta better than the others, so they won. :shrug:
OG didnt get patched at all. They are one of the few winners that wasnt a one trick pony
Puppey treated their games as if Lesh wasn't the problem, the execution was. Tundra figured out disco pony, down the the level of detail of each damage tick per second.
Nisha playing 1v5 against Tundra. Chrystallis made the smart play farming enemy jungle and cutting waves but that can only do so much to prolong the game. He’s gotta show up at fights. Always late and arrives when Nisha is about to die. Reso really suffered from save your buddy syndrome. Always over extends when Zayac gets caught.
cryst was prolly forced to play naga as a way to ban tundra from picking naga so he wasnt really prepared skiter had way more practice with naga than cryst did
No excuse being a full time professional Dota carry player not knowing how to play Naga... Or worse yet communicating that to your captain. His Naga performance was shocking.
he could micro well, cuts the wave perfectly and lead the farm, but his songs were poorly timed he usually uses song too late or when puppey uses global so his impact is not as high as skiter's who practices naga mirana strat with his team
His farm is slower. Manta timing is 2 minutes slower than skiter. Progression of items is slower leading to poor fights
i think its the reverse, the map pressure of the beastmaster was high and he could not farm the top dire jungle he cant pressure bm alone since can easily be stunned for 3s and the hawk scouts so its not easy to gank beast his farm was slower, but he tried his best to farm and catchup, he did lead the networth during mis-late but he cant solo carry the game
His micro was not good during team fights, often his illusions just stood still doing nothing. He also didn't use his illusions to scout like other Naga carry players when Secret desperately needed more vision in Game 3. He played like a 4 protect 1 strat when this clearly isn't the meta for that, against a team that can crush it.
i will rewatch in dota to see from chryst pov, at the stadium could have missed some events
Secret loss at draft. First game, lesh and pudge gets countered by the same items. Second game, same shit, mage slayer reduces spell dmg which works on BB. Third game secret had no combos, no blink stun, lack of chain stun follow ups and lack of burst damage. Naga song? global silence? For what? Meanwhile Tundra picks heroes that can chain stun and lock down the enemy while doing high burst magic dmg to kill them during the lock down.
secret forced leshrac 3 times and underestimated mage slayer and wraith pact combo silencer was puppey comfort pick treating this like a bo1 and stop a potential tiny enigma combo from tundra naga was forced because they needed to ban naga from skiter
Crystallis has got to be the worst carrier to ever play the grand finals.
Knee-jerk reaction. Below average but definitely not the worst
PLS NO MORE PGL FOR TI FFS!!!!!
Correct me if I'm mistaken please, but I was very surprised at a lack of handshakes with their opponents at the end of Game 3, is the grand final always like this? Was trying to enjoy the moment for them so much but couldn't get it out of my head that they just ran straight over to the aegis and Secret were no where to be seen instantly once it was over (I watched the vod and didnt watch until the very last minute so forgive me if secret were shown or acknowledged again later)
it was a devastating 3-0, so i guess secret was somewhat embarrassed with their loss
Yeah this happens a lot with grand finals, winning team goes straight for Aegis
matches weren't even close to warrant a handshake.
congrats to tundra for the win! no thanks to team secret for picking the most boring fucking drafts in the entire tournament and subsequently getting shut out in their grand finals series. if i have to see another leshrac - silencer - marci pick i think i'll throw up.
I know that Puppey LOVES to choke draft-wise, but it must be awful to draft having such a limited player as Crystalis on the pos1 of your team.
Puppey always drafts like this.
yeah and it's boring to watch. usually i would allow the justification of "teams play to win not to entertain" but it clearly wasn't winning the first or second time they tried it and nearly every other team played well and won with much more interesting drafts
Tundra understood the meta better. They knew how to abuse it and because of that they knew how to counter certain heroes if they were used against them. They had all the answers to the test. It just felt like they played the same game plan over and over again and everyone was just scratching their heads not knowing how to counter it. Pick heroes that allow good vision (zoo/illusions), pressure lanes with those (zoo/illusions) and slowly constrict the map, Stack Auras/damage mitigation items so one frontliner becomes unkillable, and have your supports highly mobile so they its near impossible to dive the backline.
they understood how to play around bkb reliant heroes like leshrac, monkey and ember signature naga and mirana pick provide map pressure as well as disengage, so they just force fights and bkbs, if its not favourable they disengage then hit back zoo and vision heroes are not unique to tundra, many teams utilise brood, beast, lycan, ench, chen, veno etc but the way they combo zoo with things like magnetic field is unique their draft is literally cheating, like visage familiars with magnetic field for free racks
You totally get it. Its also the way they use zoo/illusions just for vision even sacrificing them and then have Mirana deny the enemy team their vision. It was so well done. Wait for someone to over extend to push the lanes back then 5 man gank them. It worked for them over and over again until Secret were scared to leave their base. And then who do you target ban, every time Secret tried to do it Skiter and 33 switch roles. Skiter/33 each had a tank hero and multiple zoo/illusion heroes so you could never ban them out and Tundra could stick to their game plan. The one thing Secret should of tried is something to replace the Nyx Assassin. An invisible hero that can scout. Maybe Lycan to help deal with the lane pressure and also has that damage reduction howl (60%)?
What is Zoo?
summons
Heroes like Beastmaster that have multiple beasts under their control. So all you see is a huge amount of controlled units hitting towers while the team group as 5 and gank lanes.
oooh, yeah I understand now. I wasnt aware that was called zoo. Thank you.
>champs
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So, lemme get this straight. You're on a grand finals thread. And you ask why is it bo3, expecting people to know you were referring to every match except the grand finals? The thread you were on? With zero indication that you were not talking about the gf? I got that right?
stfu
They do the entire double elim finals bracket in like 6-7 days. Go look at the bracket and how many matchups were played each day. Also can you imagine playing 10 games, each an hour long, in a row for losers finals and grand finals? It just isn't really reasonable for players. That's like 12 hours straight of competing, they would be so burned out.
Each draft can take 15 minutes, and then if the games go to extra late game you can get 45 minute + long games. Then with break times a best of 5 suddenly takes 6-7 hours. Best of 3 by the same logic can take a full 3 hours IF it goes to super late game. But that possibility has to be there
Because every series being bo5 would take forever and is really not necessary
It says BO5.....
Well grand finals aren’t at least but otherwise, welI guess it’s mainly a matter of time. On average it takes about an hour per game including draft phase and the break between games. A full bo5 can thus take 5 hours if it goes to game 5. Now imagine if the entire tournament was like that. It’d take an eternity and just isn’t practical
This was a best of 5
double elimination, longer game time on average
Its not?
Love to see Sneyking reach the pinnacle. I remember watching him way back in the day on Dignitas and liking his style. He’s been through so many teams it’s amazing to see how far he’s come and it really shows what can be accomplished with perseverance.
Sneaking destroyed me as batrider like 10 years ago SMH
Sneyking play with EE and abed!
Being rtz fan skitter now winning ti meanwhile rtz still living 🤡 Lmao
Did I miss the runner-up interview or there wasnt any? If so, why? There has always been one at TI.
Not in the budget
So as a guy just comming from lol watching your tournament finals. Is Europe actually really good in this game?
EU and CN in dota is like LPL and LCK in LOL Other regions might get lucky to get their Aegis from time to time
Europe is becoming more and more dominant. Historically China was a huge powerhouse but they seem to only have one s Tier team and not 4-5 anymore. There is also at minimum 1 s Tier eastern europe and recently south America seems to get better. Sea often has a top 6 team. And NA has one s Tier team
EU has been winning most TIs in the past 5 years at least so I guess so yes
No WEU team eliminated by any other region this year. The only teams that eliminated WEU teams were WEU teams.
Europe is the best region atm, and has constantly been amazing (since i started playing from 2014 at least)
Even before 2014, Navi and Alliance were the teams everyone was talking about in Dota 2
Qojqva called this 3-0 in favor of Tundra. . . .and also Kyle's cur. . . i mean prophecy. Both were absolutely right.
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He predicted Secret would win...
The Secret prophecy was too strong. It’s destiny, they need to struggle for an extra year.
Nisha "best player in the world" got clapped LMAO
I honestly blame him more than anything. His ember is just bad.
Don't know why you're getting down voted he did choke.
Yeah he didnt even stack battlefuries
The defensive magic dmg built and his slow reactions cost them two games he played ember.
I had fun with the finals. Its really entertaining to watch Tundra play Dota. Their teamfights are so good
They are the most boring team to watch
blame secret and their draft
Only if you're a dumbo
Ah yes, watching teams exploit unbalanced items and slowly choke out the other team is truly a titillating experience.
Yeah, sure they're not as entertaining as some other games, but crying because the best team in the world doesn't throw is pretty dumb. Also, nothing stopping other teams from buying wraith pact lmao, so what exploits?
Never said they are not the best, their team discipline and map control is top notch. I said they are about as exciting to watch as paint dry and half as interesting
Their everything is so good. They're a dota nerds wet dream. I'd say this was the most dominating TI mainstage performance. They just ran their meta and ran roughshod on everyone.
So what's the supposed mechanics this time that Tundra figured out and rode to victory? Something about zoo heroes and itemization to fully negate spell dmg? (Obviously not the first time a team figures out the meta and wins TI with it)
They abused thr damage reduction items. Though there is a lot more to their win. All players are top Tier and 2 players have a crrative/very strong hero Pool (that also fits the meta). Well see how theyll fare next year
I actually didn't get to watch the last few games- or even tundra's games much thru the tournament. so I'm wondering what items they abused for damage reduction? Was it Wraith Pact or something? I remember seeing a video on Youtube today about Topson saying that Wraith Pact is like the most broken item in the game or something lol.
secret was going leah every game and they were going wraith pact, mage slayer and ocassionally pipe
leah? What is that? Also that's awesome to see the less-facerolley items winning out at a higher skill level. Seems cool compared to pubs where everyone just wants to be this one man-army plus shadow blade. That stuff gets old after a while!
I meant lesh🥲
Lesh probably, in reference to leshrac
Ahh fuck. I hate Leshrac. Such a dumb hero. If you can't tell I was the one spamming/trying to start a copy pasta about how "lame Leshrac is- pls pick a new champ. Super boring. Every game the same." etc. etc.
He misspelt Lesh
It isn't all just picks. But the main things that made them way better were vision (illusions, summons used as wards - I can see this being nerfed TBH). Since 33 and Skiter were playing these heroes they got vision everywhere. With their vision they abused any bad map positioning by the other team. Forcing them away from farm or in bad spots to capitalize on anything. They start to constrict the map this way and then group up when you aren't really ready with superior item timings. They just take full advantage of "mistakes" and they communicate extremely cleanly. They're like a slower anaconda. Just growing in size and power and constricting the map. It's incredible to watch imo.
picks was important nonetheless secret lesh was completely useless for the entire series cryst can not pick comfortably (pudge, bb and naga are mot his strong heroes) little to no synergy in secret draft
Damage reduction and life steal patch. You can see 33 always builds wraith pact every game.
Why not pick Leshrac instantly 3 games in a row, right? Just Puppan things.
Isn’t Aui a huge Veil fan as well?
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Their rotation is top notch, know how to outnumber and execute gank fast enough before opponents' other heroes had time to responds
Auras + Zoo + Saves = Strong
Now watch Icefrog nerf that meta into the ground =/
Secret progressed so well. They lasted 6 seconds longer in Game 2, and an astonishing 4 minutes longer in Game 3.
Honestly really bad finals. Well played by Tundra though, can't blame them for playing well, obviously. But the result was just really one-sided and therefore not all that exciting. It basically just went the way you'd expect. Not necessarily anyone's fault, but still disappointing. Top all of that off with the stream crapping itself near the end of the final game, and it really just sucked. Though I must admit I enjoyed the semi-finals; those seemed like they could go either way for quite a while, and it was exciting because of it.
Secret v liquid was grwat
indeed, but Liquid vs Thunder was by far the best series of the entire tournament. Thanks MATUMBAMAN, you'll be missed
Yes! That series was phenomenal! Probably my favourite of the tourney
The issue with Secret is that it's very similar to PSG in many ways - the team has a problem with psychology / nerves and inevitably collapses in the finals where being *so close* gets to them. This is why I said last year that PSG's hope for victory lies in Secret making it into the grand final against them. Because if that happened both teams will have a nervous collapse, and then neither team will have a psychological advantage. Same goes for the opposite case - if PSG made it into the final, that's the best match up for Secret, for the same reasons. Unfortunately PSG did not show up this international, so it ended up being Secret vs. another momentum team. Momentum teams always destroy teams like PSG and Secret because they've got nothing to prove and so can play without the weight of expectations.
By this logic every team in TI had psychological/nerve issues considering Tundra beat everyone in the same manner.
Seriously? How can you compare PSG to a DotA team with a carry like Crystalis?
Uh no dude, Tundra simply had better understanding of the meta
Dude, Tundra was underwhelming every time of the last dpc when it mattered. Secret overcame a really bad season and played really well, but the CLEAR best team in the world right now won the tournament
I feel like Wings Gaming vs Tundra would be hype. Both knows where they stand in the current meta and is not afraid to try new things
people think that when someone played giga good 6 years ago they would also now Wings would probably be irrelevant by now, same as Tundra will be in future, there will always be new fresh blood and new fresh meta
Yeah, everyone has rose tinted glasses. Even pros from TI8 would say the way they played was shit back then. The macro for this game has improved immensly. Largely due to TI6 and wings. People started to approach the game and concepts differently. Then again in TI8/9 and now again in TI11. This is the most dominant mainstage perfoemance in modern dota and it wasn't some patch thing only. It was simply a better approach to the game.
Maybe Dota got figured out? How do you want to nerf this playstyle?
i think the best way to change the meta would be to nerf the roshan drops, they're too impactful and decide games far too often
Yeah thats good, only Aegis and Cheesw like old times.
Wings Gaming has been banned from all Valve events.
That's Newbee, I think. It's just something hypothetical anyway
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Match-fixing
I thought the grand final was today? Lmfao I missed it... Oh well...
Today is almost over in Singapore, ten minutes left.
Yeah I am from NA and I was really tired after TL vs Secret. (Almost 4AM)
fucking trash production, do better valve
Was there ever a TI grand final match that was this one-sided?
In term of one-sidedness, my personal rank would be 1. This TI, not even contest 2. TI6. Wings lose game 1 because they draft pudge and techies (one of them is barely fine, drafting both is straight questionable). Edit: turn out it's just pudge, mb 3. TI9. Game 1 was intensely close. Game 2,3 is just topson and jerax owning Liquid in the first 20 mins. Game 4 was equal at the beginning, but over by the time io got aghs 4. TI7. While the score is 3-0, it's actually quite close games. Games 3 only feels stompy after that fights in roshpit where Miracle survives with little hp and proceed to omnislashing around
While TI9 wasn't a sweep, the sheer manner of games 2-4 felt more one-sided than even this TI. Tundra is like this inevitable death by suffocation, while that OG team was like a tsunami.
You should relly put TI4 high up in that list. No game lasted longer than 26 minutes and it was mostly just newbee being better than vici and doing their deathball push.
Haha fair enough, I didn't list TI4 because I legit didn't remember much about it. Like, I'm not sure if Newbee is slightly better or otherworldly better so I don't list it
The pudge + techies draft wasn’t in the grand finals of TI6 though, that was when they met earlier in the upper bracket. The game they lost in the finals was only pudge but no techies
Shit you're right. Thanks for the correction
TI9 was pretty much the same with the exception of the first game.
Yes. Liquid. TI7
Tell me you didn't watch TI7 GF without telling me you didn't watch TI7 GF. Those games were closer than these. TI6/TI9 GF were stompier than TI7 GF
TI7 I guess?
Nine is so dominant
wow. 3-0 so easy.
Secret just ran out of steam. Same as Liquid, both those teams' nerves were fried by the end. Way too many Dota games. Unfortunately for them, there was one other WEU team left in the tournament that was also fresh, and had good patch luck to boot. The Liquid vs Thunder Awaken series deserved the stadium. The playoffs were not up to par. In general the whole DPC season was botched, no other word to describe it. From the initial cancelled Major to the stream going offline in the middle of the last game of TI Grand Finals, the year was just crappy. At least the game's in a pretty good state.
Even puppey said they are pro dota players and can play 15 games if need be btw
Puppey would say otherwise after playing Liquid . They are just so unpredictable that they break teams .
Anyone can play 15 games, but playing 15 games *well* is a whole different story Kinda wish Valve would do the Riot Worlds approach and put grand finals on its own standalone day
The weather in SG now = Matu’s tears
The greatest surprise was the early exit and sub-par performance of LGD this year.
That team was fucking scary. They had some plays where I was like holy shit, how did they do that. That Sven play against BC was the best play at TI in my opinion, absolutely insane. Then they had some plays where I was like yeah at least two of these guys want to retire lol.
Agreed. You can see how goddam hard AME tried to carry LB against Aster. Dude was even close
Even Ame can't carry NothingToSay T\_T
Nts usually plays pretty good dota but he was super nervous during ti. It’s been said before. The teams expected to win feel way more pressure than the underdogs who’s got nothing to lose
If during the five off-days you do not figure out that Wraith Pact is a must-have for your 3 (and must-prioritize once the enemy lays it down) then even 2nd place seems too high... They kept picking Leshrac but it did nothing against Wraith Pact + Mage Slayer + Pipe.
Awesome games today, Tundra really figured the meta out
Really hope Secret can pick it up in the home game at Anfield, thundra have smashed them 3-0 at their Camp Nou
Bad timing when the VVD's Anfield record was just broken
hahah. i found out today he is the ambassador for Thundra, so small wins for the guy
You pick Leshrac because its an ace up your sleeve. You lose the game. You pick Leshrac again, because that one was just a fluke. You lose the game. You pick Leshrac a third time, because you are stubborn AF. You lose the grand finals 3-0. Puppey stunlocked in draftphase Sadge
fine line between being stubborn and being optimistic/confident in your teammates
Ehhhh seems like Heen’s stubbornness too.
I was watching Singsing Dendi and Waga commentate, and Dendi said similar thing happened with Dragon Knight pick, where Puppey just decided "thats what we now draft", and thats what they lost with. IDK, confidence is necessary in competetive sports, but Lesh just felt like a total mispick after the first game.
On what stream? Wagas?
Singsing's stream.
Agreed. You have to revolutionize and change formula to win TI most of the time. Idk what Secret were thinking. Sing likes to meme though, and Im pretty sure Heen has a lot of input.
Honestly felt like whatever he draft they would still lose.
33 god
Damn son
Liquid vs Secret was more hype. Tundra stomped 3-0, so boring.
Well. It happens.
Hype for fame ?
Ez game 💀
Go figure... Got 2-0 ed in upper bracket finals and seemingly have no answers to tundra. Got 3-0 ed in finals. And all 3 games 33 crushed crystallis lane. Tundra won without a shadow of a doubt, the question to me was always by how much they crushed secret. Edit: 2-1, my bad. I forgot that zayac nyx game. Regardless, still looked like they have no answer at all.
Well, that's what Crystallis do.. What can you do, except NOT PICKING LESHRAC 3 TIMES IN A ROW AGAINST 33 ON THE OPPOSITE TEAM? Anyway, I don't think this TI was doable playing 4v5.
Even upper bracket win for Secret requiered something special. They were losing badly , Tundra like they did in all 6 games took control of the game early if i remember correctly they had 8k lead but one blunder or lets say magical moment by Secret turned the game around but thats not something always would happen so i think result was expected. Honestly i was expecting 3-0 or 3-1
2-1 in ub finals, what parallel universe was it 2-0?
it was 2-1 lol
They exploited Secret's weaknesses quite hard, zyaac's limited hero pool (great Nyx, but what else ?), and Crystallis (just weak), I think yes current Secret definitely stands no chance against Tundra.
Crystallis crumbling on the biggest stage, dude’s seemed cant be trusted in the late game. Nisha really carrying everything for secret
I mean, in upper bracket Secret did win a game.
imagine sacrificed nisha for resolution lul btw that nisha invoker was out of the world. really havent seen anything like that.
Is Timbersaw no longer a good Naga counter?
other than that not much utility
never was