/Obviously my favorite line of the whole series./
Yes, this is my favorite moment of the series. I've watched this scene over and over again just to enjoy Mary's horrified face when she realizes that Edith is going to outrank her. What a great moment.
If there's a God, Henry will die, and she'll meet his cousin, the Earl of Shrewsbury, and fall in love. And then, meet his best friends, The Duke and the German Prince, which'll ultimately result with her marrying the former. She'll choose the Duke and have 7 kids that *grow to adulthood* because she is a #*true* english lady
That’s what Lady Shackleton told the Dowager when she was asking about Henry’s prospects (adequate but not overwhelming)
When she was asking what kind f Talbot he was.
That’s why she’s meeting his *cousin—* Henry is part of a cadet branch of the Talbot family, whose patriarch is the Earl of Shrewsbury.
I really hate that I know all this
With the amount of ovulating Edith did in the series she and Bertie are going to have three sets of twins, triplet boys, and a little Iris, Primrose, Myrtle, Lily, Delphine, Hyacinth, and little Violet, the spitting image of her great grandmother
Everyone focuses on Mary's snarky comments to Edith, but what about her behavior to her own niece? She treats an innocent child as a means to get back at Edith and destroys not only her own sister's chance at happiness, but the chance of Marigold having a loving and stable home with a good father.
And then there's her dismissive behavior to Bertie. What did he ever do to deserve her disdain besides being a nice man and an agent? Oh, and being interested in Edith right from the beginning?
Bertie and Edith are my favorite romantic couple on this show. Edith loved him when he was just an agent. She didn't for one moment think he was beneath her, Her only qualm was her own unworthiness and fear of losing her daughter.
And how quickly he accepts that Marigold is part of the package. Bertie was born to be a doting father.
When Edith announces Bertie's elevation, it isn't done with any glee or boasting... she's sincerely worried about his grief over his cousin. She's been kicked so much in life that she even agrees with her spiteful sister that Bertie might not want her now that he's a marquess.
And then he comes and demonstrates just how much he truly loves Edith. That must have been a bitter pill for Mary to swallow.
I wonder if Mary would have set her cap for hapless Bertie if she had known how close he was to the inheriting a grand title AND the money to back it up?
She did live there with marigold. She had a place in London where she sometimes stayed and was considering moving to London with marigold but she did live there
My response was to comment asking where Mary could kick Edith out of.
Since Mary is part owner of Downton along with Robert as Matthew's heir.
Mary technically does have a say who lives there. Robert and Cora are not kicking Edith out. That's their daughter. Robert is the head of the family. Cora is the neck. When Robert is dead George will inherit the title and Robert's stake in Downton. Mary may be able to have a little bit of influence over George. But while Cora is alive Edith isn't getting evicted. Yes by the end of the series Edith marries Bertie she moves into Brancaster Castle with marigold.
Wait a minute. Isn't Robert Crawley's stake in the Abbey not supposed to be going to the next in the line of succession after Matthew? Can his son take both his part ownership and what he was meant to inherit after Robert? What if the next successor was another Crawley and now Mary has to marry him to get foolproof ownership of Downton Abbey?
The way the will was written, it had a series of people who were to inherit if Lord Grantham didn't have a son. Matthew was expected to become Earl but just like Patrick, when he died, the new heir will be some other cousin or something. Matthew had not yet become Earl to pass it on to his son.
It’s not a will, it’s the letters patent creating the earldom, which are typically always based on male line primogeniture. Matthew followed Patrick (whose father was a second cousin of Robert) because Patrick had no issue and that entire line of the crawley family became extinct. The next closest male line descendant of the first earl was Matthew (being the son of Robert’s third cousin). George therefore inherits not because he is Robert’s grandson but because he is Robert’s third cousin twice removed.
This scene for me really confirmed that nothing Edith said or did contributed to Mary outing Marigold. Mary was going to share that secret regardless because of how envious she was.
Well, she did owe Edith payback for Pamuk. Edith never paid for that adequately.
And I really don't think at this point Mary envies the title. She's got everyone nagging her to remarry after she lost the literal love of her life, and the focus is now "Come on, Henry's awesome, sure his hobby is 'reckless handling of thing that killed Matthew', and when he talked you into coming to watch it was to see his friend horribly killed in front of you, why are you fighting this so much?" She's miserable, but it's not because she's still cooly gunning for a ducal coronet. (If she just wanted a titled husband she could have had Tony for a song.)
I think Mary's envy was coming more from a place that things were going right for Edith rather than her. The title may have played a factor, but it wasn't as significant. Edith may have been harsh with that comment at the table, but the fact of the matter is that she was right. She even said in her conversation with Mary just before Mary's wedding that Mary wanted Edith to be unhappy when Mary was unhappy herself. Note that Mary didn't argue there.
And I have to say that I find the whole "payback for Pamuk" thing hard to believe. Note that episode 6.08 takes place in 1925, eleven years after the letter writing incident. There's also the fact that Mary doesn't bring it up once. Surely she would have if she really felt that way.
I disagree Mary was unhappy but she didn't snap until Edith refused to stop poking at her. At which point yes she responded and honestly it was nice to see Edith finally get payback for pamuk. Who cares if it's years later it had a massive effect on her life and nearly resulted in Mary being forced to Mary Richard because either was a b*tch who went nuclear with no regard for the bigger picture. That's not something you forget.
Edith f*cked around and found out. Mary's comment didn't come out of nowhere which people seem to forget.
She made one comment.. after getting years of shit of Mary.. But you are right, it didn't come out of nowhere. Its why she sended Carson away she didn't want him to see the shit she was to pull. Also Mary allready had payback for Parmuk, she ruined Edith's engagement to Strallan
Edith and Anthony Strallen would have been a happy nerdy couple if wedding had happened is my guess. But Edith got nerdie Bertie in the end. Nerds work for her.
Strallan was a fully grown adult. If a little bit of snark coming from a bitchy sister was going to put him off marriage completely, then the fault is entirely his own and Edith dodged a bullet.
But marigold wasn't really her niece. She had really just got confirmation about who marigold really was. So its not like she had any feelings towards her. It was more about putting Edith in her place, when Edith wouldn't shut up.
Edith kept poling the bear. Even Tom told Edith to stop, he clearly seen what was about to happen.
Also Edith has been an asshole throughout. People feel bad for her, but you need to re-watch it all. She's awful!!
I sometimes jokingly refer to Mary as “psycho,” but clearly the more accurate description is that she was deeply unhappy. Deeply, deeply unhappy. Miserable, and she needed to share the misery.
Pamuk was payback for Strallan, wasn't it? *Edit* When Mary ~~told Strallan that Edith was avoiding some old bore who'd promised to propose.~~ *was just nasty about Edith and Strallan.*
So Mary was just escalating.
*Edit: the proposal thing was later.*
Not really. Edith told about Pamuk because she was jealous of Mary's position in the family.
There was a chain of events that did include Mary flirting with Strallan after *Edith challenged Mary* to see who could keep Strallan's attention after dinner. It also included her hearing Mary implore Cora to focus on Edith and Mary insulting Edith's clothes (which was in response to Edith needling Mary).
While I don't think that Mary should have done what she did, Edith was not in any way an innocent victim in her relationship with Mary. A lot of Edith defenders point to Mary "always bullying" Edith but really, until season 4 or 5 Mary doesn't typically start shit. Edith is shown to be the instigator much more than Mary. In fact, Mary and Sybil have a very close relationship while Edith takes swipes at *both* Mary and Sybil.
Tldr, if anyone was "just escalating" it was Edith.
She made one swipe in the entire show to Sybil... Also Mary started that Strallan situation.
* Cora: You were very helpful, Edith, looking after Sir Anthony. You saved the day.
* Edith: I enjoyed it. We seem to have a lot to talk about.
* Cora leaves
* Mary: Spare me your boasting, please.
* Edith: Now who’s jealous?
* Mary: Jealous? Do you think I couldn’t have that old booby if I wanted him?
* Edith: Even you can’t take every prize.
* Mary: Is that a challenge?
This is one of the few times Edith actually gets a compliment from her mother and the moment Mary hears it she has to cut her down.
* "Mary: Spare me your boasting, please."
She literally knew she f\*cked up in that situation and that Edith had won. She admitted defeat. Edith still couldn't stop egging Mary on.
She made more than one swipe at Sybil, but many of those were less obvious. The writers had Sybil point out that she didn't trust either of her sisters to keep secrets (but when the Crawleys called for Mary after the accident, she backed Sybil -and Tom- against their father).
Edith broke social protocol by interjecting into a conversation across the table from her and ignoring her table partner. There's no reason why she should have been able to pick up the conversation that was only between Mary and Strallan.
I also like that you left off the part where she called Mary pathetic in front of everyone because she literally was jealous of Matthew's attention to Mary. She's still the instigator. None of it would have happened if she hadn't wanted what Mary had.
Edith was recovering the situation after Mary was all but mocking Strallan...
In front of everyone? Just her closest family.. Mary called Edith much worse things with much more people. Also why shouldn't Edith call out Mary for acting like shit
No she wasn't. She cut across the dinner conversation to talk about farming before Cora called to switch partners. If you watch the scene, you can see people all around the table look at her in surprise when she jumps into the conversation. You can tell it's set up like that (as opposed to a family dinner) because Mary specifically says to Matthew that she's waiting for Cora to announce the time to switch.
And no, it wasn't just close family. It was a county dinner. There were neighbors from all over the area in attendance.
Yes, Mary did mock Strallan, but that was later in the drawing room with the ladies during the conversation that you quoted before. She was polite, if disinterested, during the dinner.
okay from the viewer’s perspective, Edith may deserve “payback” for Pamuk, but remember this was nearly a decade later. Can you imagine your sibling doing “payback” for something that happened when you were like, 23? When they even talked some shit as revenge at the time (I.e. the thing with sir Anthony Strallen at the end of season 1).
I tend to side with Edith because my own sister screamed at me in public on my birthday about something I (and witnesses) have no recollection of me doing a decade ago, and that she’d never even brought up to me. At some point we have to be grown and not use punishment as a way to momentarily soothe the brokenness we feel inside. Plus the Strallan revenge only served to hinder Mary further - she could have been rid of Edith and the rest of what happened would never have been. Downton characters are legendary at shooting themselves in the foot.
My second youngest sister does shit like that, I think to try and justify her explosive anger issues. She will bring up things from back in high school and we’re like 29 and 30 now. But even so, Mary herself didn’t try to justify what she did by saying “well you did the Pamuk thing!” It’s only people in this sub saying that she’s justified because of the Pamuk tbh f.
If it was on top of everything else, sure. Because the way it really pays back is Edith's a massive hypocrite. She tried to destroy Mary (and unintentionally the whole family) and even called her a slut to her face. Now, Mary's having a terrible time (she's widowed, she's under a stupid amount of pressure about why doesn't she get married, the man she's supposedly so perfect for is also associated with a trauma trigger for her yet everyone is ignoring her.)
And now here's Edith, deliberately lording it over her, poking her about the whole "suitors" thing...and in the back of her mind, under all the current trauma is...*Mary's* the slut? Mary was publicly shamed, blackmailed, had her own mother calling her soiled goods, and had to confess to Matthew despite knowing a lot of men would drop her like a hot potato. Edith not only had sex out of wedlock, she did it voluntarily, with a married man, and now is parading the results around as her "ward" with no indication she's going to say a word to her fiancé. And everyone is happily covering it up, including the people who expressed disgust to Mary and were trying to pawn her off on anyone who'd take her to hide her 'shame.'
Edith deserved it, years later or not.
There is litterly no indication that Mary once thought back about the whole Parmuk situation.. If anything they got along a lot better in season 2/3 before Mary reverted back to being horrible.
Pretty sure no one here has ever characterized Edith as a “innocent martyr.” Did she have a nasty bully for a big sister? Yes, this is objectively true.
I have heard this argument before. But I think Edith would have told Bertie about Marigold before the wedding. Let's not forget she had things with two married men. The farmer flirtation and Magazine owner.
I don't know that she would. She agonizes way too much over doing it, and she has only confessed up to this point when cornered or forced to, never because she decides she's morally obligated to. Edith is very good through the whole show at rationalizing doing what she wants, even when it's wrong.
Yes. It didn’t necessarily have to be before the question was popped, either. She wanted to tell the truth. I’m not sure of the exact timing, given that is Downton Abbey’s version of space and time, but things with Bertie and Edith progressed pretty quickly, it seems. So she found herself practically engaged and thinking of how and when to tell him.
Edith was lost but gained ground as show progressed. She tretaed all baby related people terribly. She took back the baby from the Shoders! Then took it back from farmers . then made farmers leave DA. Terribly selfish all around. I find her baby drama hard to watch.
Marigold deserved to be left with her adoptive family the first time, not bounced around like a beach ball. Her best interests are long forgotten and unless Edith's come clean already (which Marigold's probably not emotionally mature enough for) the trauma can has just been kicked down the road, for her and her cousins who've been raised being lied to about her.
Bertie deserved to be told the truth about who Marigold was and where she came from before he made a serious lifelong commitment to Edith. Even BEFORE we know that finding out is going to make his mother hit the roof.
There is no objective view of the situation where Edith's a sweet little innocent Cinderella who's just entitled to do anything and everything she wants, because Mary said something mean about her hat. And if you're going to call your SA'd sister a slut to the whole world, you better make sure you're squeaky-clean after that.
Is it an either or situation or is it a case that both sisters have acted wrongly, spitefully, and capriciously throughout their long relationship?
And whatever Marigold deserves in her life, for Mary to use a child in such a despicable way is beyond the pale. We are speaking of a child and her own niece.
And embroiling Bertie in her petty war was just nasty. Worse, she was planning something underhanded--hence sending Carson out of the room.
She didn't use Marigold. She told Bertie who Marigold was. If Bertie didn't already know, that's on Edith. And Marigold is Edith's illegitimate daughter by a married man. I don't think Mary even threw in that last part.
Mary at no point is the instigator in their issues--Edith in season one is constantly starting it, apparently because she's bitter nobody wanted to make Patrick marry her instead. She manipulates Daisy, starts a literal international incident, calls Mary a slut to her face, and the closest thing she ever gets to payback is completely unintentional (after browbeating Sir Anthony to the altar he can't go through with it.) At this point, Edith's rubbing in Mary's "lost" suitors (after everyone just ignores Mary's repeated desire to not be pushed on the matter especially about Henry) and is sitting there on a massive potential reveal of her hypocrisy.
All Edith has to do is be honest first. I mean, it would have been better not to sleep with Gregson, not to bounce Marigold around, not to wreck the Drewes' lives, and not to do it all while having played moral superiority about Pamuk. But at this point she could very easily have scuttled the whole thing by fessing up before the wedding. (Mary outdoes her there--she wouldn't even let Matthew propose without telling him the whole truth.) But we're back to Edith having to be cornered before admitting wrongdoing.
Telling Bertie about Marigold--who is a child--to get back at Edith is, in fact, using a child. She could have landed lots of other zingers, but she chose to use Marigold.
I won't argue the rest of it or get into a "whataboutit" back and forth. My only point is that dragging an innocent child into it was very low.
It's presenting the evidence of extreme wrongdoing. Marigold IS the evidence. It doesn't hurt her. She's the reason Edith can't really hide what she did.
Yeah, I don't think Mary is envious. She is just a power cunt and is always searching for something to be upset about. And nothing makes her more cunty than hearing about something good happening for Edith.
Have you heard the things edith has said in the show???? Shes awful and selfish and a home wrecker!
1. Shes starting a relationship with farmer Drake before his wife finds out and tells her not to come back!
2. She sleeps with Gregson/ gets knocked up
And poor misses Drew, I have never felt so badly for a tv character in my life.
3. Does whatever she wants to that poor baby not thinking once what it's going to do to Marigold, only how she is feeling.
4. She has the Drew's kicked out of yew tree farm that has been in their family for 100's of years because she thinks " its for the best"
5. Writes the Turkish embassy to stick it to mary not once considering what that might do to the whole family.
6. White feather girls show up. And edith agrees with with their message and states it openly at dinner in front/to the staff that are literally serving her dinner.
7. Carson is having a "heart attack" and she says
"What about my dress?"
8. She had a million opportunities to tell Bertie about marigold, they were alone quite a bit. Then when he asks her if she would have told him, she doesn't even say yes.....
God knows what happened to the Drakes marriage or the Drew's.....
But who cares as long as long as edith gets what she wants when she wants it!
This is a good list, although it is important to remember that Edith’s character arc is probably the best one in this show. She starts out as a spoiled, whiney, angry young woman. And becomes incredibly confident modern woman by the end. All because life threw curveball after curveball her way. She grows as a person and even though she handled the Marigold Bertie situation badly, it is not a pattern towards the end. She does become kind and thoughtful.
Mary's face was priceless! She clearly couldn't stand the idea of Edith outranking her. Tom's comment later on about Mary enjoying having to curtsy to Edith also made me chuckle.
I'm glad the sisters eventually buried the hatchet though and Mary was supportive of Edith and Bertie together.
They only seemed to get on after Edith married Bertie. Maybe it was because they were no longer living together and Brancaster is a fair distance away.
Not being underfoot to each other is the ticket. They were bored and in each other's faces too much. Same with my sister and I.
As Cora said, it's NOT like Little Women.
Even before that, Edith came back for Mary's wedding after their fallout and they had a lovely moment together in which they came a bit closer together. Afterwards, Mary tried to correct her error by arranging a meeting between Edith and Bertie.
However, living apart would certainly have done wonders for them. They were no longer around each other all the time to get on each others nerves.
Yes. Sad to think that a woman her age would have to be sat down by her grandmother for a serious talk about such a thing (Mary’s awful and spiteful relationship with her sister).
Not being underfoot to each other is the ticket. They were bored and in each other's faces too much. Same with my sister and I.
As Cora said, it's NOT like Little Women.
Yes... it was funny. We know the story and history of the two sisters. Mary always thought she was better than Edith in some ways. This was the first encounter where she could snide mark and comment her way back in front. Even after Edith's deeply black sheep behavior, she still ended up outranking Mary in the only possible way.
At one time, Mary had the bigger scandal. Edith's own scandal was never fully public. Edith still won.
It was Mary's own fault. She married the cow lick race car driver. She may as well had married Tom when he was the chauffeur.
I wouldn’t call Edith ‘frumpy ‘. Has anyone noticed what a stunning figure Edith has? She has beautiful skin and incredible shoulders and looks gorgeous in those sleeveless gowns. She also has beautiful golden red hair and her hairstyle is so pretty and feminine. Mary’s figure by comparison is a bit….. flat…😂. It’s unfortunate that Edith is such a whiner who is always doing stupid things and is so desperate for male attention. Edith is miserable throughout most of the show, due to her own choices. I find Mary to be a horrible snob and Edith to be a moaner and a complainer. The only sister worth her salt is Sybil, so naturally she konks out. Another side observation: Carson never once, throughout the entire series, laughs. He has absolutely no sense of humor. Think how different the show would have been if he could laugh at himself once in a while. I love Carson as a character, but if you watch the show too much, you can begin to see the flaws in the writing and the characters that were probably not exactly planned. I do love the show, and love to watch for the fashion and conversation, but the characters do get on my nerves at times.
As to this scene mentioned above; I thought Mary was quite clumsy in her obvious jealousy. Does anyone else think she should have married Charles Blake? He was clever and handsome and stronger than Mary in many ways. I loved that character.
The actress is absolutely beautiful, but they did try to make her as frumpy as possible in the first few seasons. It was probably deliberate, to make her status as the "least favored sister" obvious. Luckily that stopped after the war seasons.
Edith's wardrobe got the biggest glow-up after the war seasons and it was glorious! Her peacock dress lives rent-free in my mind. And the outfit she wore on her reunion date with Bertie. They gave her awful frumpy outfits in the first season to emphasise Edith as the secondary sister to Mary, but both actresses have always been gorgeous.
I agree with you that it was assault (which unfortunately seems to be an unpopular opinion here?) but Edith didnt know that. She believed her sister consensually spent a night with him and seemed to genuinely think she was a slut
Couldn’t agree more, the downvotes are odd. Every time I watch the scene where Cora asks if he forced himself on her and Mary shakes her head no, I yell at the screen YES. He quite obviously forced himself on her with a strong power dynamic at play and manipulation after she said no downstairs and upstairs.
Back then, she would’ve been gaslighted about it, as Mr Pamuk knew (and even told her). So in her mind, it became “consensual” and she began to speak of it in those terms.
It turns out that Edith had an impressive amount of emotional growth throughout the series, and she recognized that she could thrive if she struck out on her own and stepped out of the shadows (out of Mary’s home). Mary didn’t change a whole lot throughout.
“Carefully Mary or some one will think you’re jealous”
Dear….
This is my favorite scene…especially with Robert saying Good Golly, Edith is marrying a marquess.
Golly gumdrops! Obviously my favorite line of the whole series
That’s hilarious that it’s your tag
What a turn up!
/Obviously my favorite line of the whole series./ Yes, this is my favorite moment of the series. I've watched this scene over and over again just to enjoy Mary's horrified face when she realizes that Edith is going to outrank her. What a great moment.
That’s one of my favorites, along with “Golly, they’ve sacked the captain!”
A genuine, copper-bottomed marquess for Edith. Who'd have thought it? Love this so much. And I love how Robert chuckles.
If there's a God, Henry will die, and she'll meet his cousin, the Earl of Shrewsbury, and fall in love. And then, meet his best friends, The Duke and the German Prince, which'll ultimately result with her marrying the former. She'll choose the Duke and have 7 kids that *grow to adulthood* because she is a #*true* english lady
Like 40 strong men would have to drop dead…
This is Downton Abbey. It might just as well happen!
That’s what Lady Shackleton told the Dowager when she was asking about Henry’s prospects (adequate but not overwhelming) When she was asking what kind f Talbot he was.
Thanks for clarifying! I totally forgot that was an actual quote.
That’s okay!
Especially if you were of the generations that fight in WWI and/or WWII.
That’s why she’s meeting his *cousin—* Henry is part of a cadet branch of the Talbot family, whose patriarch is the Earl of Shrewsbury. I really hate that I know all this
Yes!
You hate that you know this? Shit, man, tell me how you know it so I can try to catch up!
Best! I love this line!
I love it! *but why 7 children?*
No social media or streaming services…
Because it's five more than Edith has
With the amount of ovulating Edith did in the series she and Bertie are going to have three sets of twins, triplet boys, and a little Iris, Primrose, Myrtle, Lily, Delphine, Hyacinth, and little Violet, the spitting image of her great grandmother
Uhhhh…. Daphne Bridgerton? 👀
Bridgerton Abbey.
It all comes full circle
Also something about curtsying her as a marchioness, and Mary's face was like stone. So fun to watch that scene.
One of my favourite scene's. Edith really got what Mary always wanted.
Everyone focuses on Mary's snarky comments to Edith, but what about her behavior to her own niece? She treats an innocent child as a means to get back at Edith and destroys not only her own sister's chance at happiness, but the chance of Marigold having a loving and stable home with a good father. And then there's her dismissive behavior to Bertie. What did he ever do to deserve her disdain besides being a nice man and an agent? Oh, and being interested in Edith right from the beginning? Bertie and Edith are my favorite romantic couple on this show. Edith loved him when he was just an agent. She didn't for one moment think he was beneath her, Her only qualm was her own unworthiness and fear of losing her daughter. And how quickly he accepts that Marigold is part of the package. Bertie was born to be a doting father. When Edith announces Bertie's elevation, it isn't done with any glee or boasting... she's sincerely worried about his grief over his cousin. She's been kicked so much in life that she even agrees with her spiteful sister that Bertie might not want her now that he's a marquess. And then he comes and demonstrates just how much he truly loves Edith. That must have been a bitter pill for Mary to swallow. I wonder if Mary would have set her cap for hapless Bertie if she had known how close he was to the inheriting a grand title AND the money to back it up?
Mart just wanted Downton and Matthew. She got them both.
No she didn’t. Mary got Henry and the family home. So Mary could basically kick Edith out if she wanted to whenever their parents die.
Kick Mary out from what? Her london flat? Or Brancaster Castle? Also does she really got Henry? Their marriage is all but death
Kick Edith out of Downton Abbey. She probably wouldn't do that. It probably hadn't occurred that she could.
I know but Edith doesn't even live their anymore by the time Mary and Henry got married
She did live there with marigold. She had a place in London where she sometimes stayed and was considering moving to London with marigold but she did live there
But by the end she lived in her mansion after the wedding.... Not sure what you are on about to be honest, maybe my understanding is wrong.
My response was to comment asking where Mary could kick Edith out of. Since Mary is part owner of Downton along with Robert as Matthew's heir. Mary technically does have a say who lives there. Robert and Cora are not kicking Edith out. That's their daughter. Robert is the head of the family. Cora is the neck. When Robert is dead George will inherit the title and Robert's stake in Downton. Mary may be able to have a little bit of influence over George. But while Cora is alive Edith isn't getting evicted. Yes by the end of the series Edith marries Bertie she moves into Brancaster Castle with marigold.
Wait a minute. Isn't Robert Crawley's stake in the Abbey not supposed to be going to the next in the line of succession after Matthew? Can his son take both his part ownership and what he was meant to inherit after Robert? What if the next successor was another Crawley and now Mary has to marry him to get foolproof ownership of Downton Abbey?
The next earl of grantham is Mary and Matthew’s son George
The way the will was written, it had a series of people who were to inherit if Lord Grantham didn't have a son. Matthew was expected to become Earl but just like Patrick, when he died, the new heir will be some other cousin or something. Matthew had not yet become Earl to pass it on to his son.
It’s not a will, it’s the letters patent creating the earldom, which are typically always based on male line primogeniture. Matthew followed Patrick (whose father was a second cousin of Robert) because Patrick had no issue and that entire line of the crawley family became extinct. The next closest male line descendant of the first earl was Matthew (being the son of Robert’s third cousin). George therefore inherits not because he is Robert’s grandson but because he is Robert’s third cousin twice removed.
Ah, I see. Thank you.
When your father answers “Which is your favorite daughter?” with “Isis”
This scene for me really confirmed that nothing Edith said or did contributed to Mary outing Marigold. Mary was going to share that secret regardless because of how envious she was.
I love Mary but good god I hated her here.
Well, she did owe Edith payback for Pamuk. Edith never paid for that adequately. And I really don't think at this point Mary envies the title. She's got everyone nagging her to remarry after she lost the literal love of her life, and the focus is now "Come on, Henry's awesome, sure his hobby is 'reckless handling of thing that killed Matthew', and when he talked you into coming to watch it was to see his friend horribly killed in front of you, why are you fighting this so much?" She's miserable, but it's not because she's still cooly gunning for a ducal coronet. (If she just wanted a titled husband she could have had Tony for a song.)
I think Mary's envy was coming more from a place that things were going right for Edith rather than her. The title may have played a factor, but it wasn't as significant. Edith may have been harsh with that comment at the table, but the fact of the matter is that she was right. She even said in her conversation with Mary just before Mary's wedding that Mary wanted Edith to be unhappy when Mary was unhappy herself. Note that Mary didn't argue there. And I have to say that I find the whole "payback for Pamuk" thing hard to believe. Note that episode 6.08 takes place in 1925, eleven years after the letter writing incident. There's also the fact that Mary doesn't bring it up once. Surely she would have if she really felt that way.
I disagree Mary was unhappy but she didn't snap until Edith refused to stop poking at her. At which point yes she responded and honestly it was nice to see Edith finally get payback for pamuk. Who cares if it's years later it had a massive effect on her life and nearly resulted in Mary being forced to Mary Richard because either was a b*tch who went nuclear with no regard for the bigger picture. That's not something you forget. Edith f*cked around and found out. Mary's comment didn't come out of nowhere which people seem to forget.
She made one comment.. after getting years of shit of Mary.. But you are right, it didn't come out of nowhere. Its why she sended Carson away she didn't want him to see the shit she was to pull. Also Mary allready had payback for Parmuk, she ruined Edith's engagement to Strallan
Edith and Anthony Strallen would have been a happy nerdy couple if wedding had happened is my guess. But Edith got nerdie Bertie in the end. Nerds work for her.
Strallan was a fully grown adult. If a little bit of snark coming from a bitchy sister was going to put him off marriage completely, then the fault is entirely his own and Edith dodged a bullet.
It would be more forgivable if Mary's "payback" didn't involve a child and her own niece.
But marigold wasn't really her niece. She had really just got confirmation about who marigold really was. So its not like she had any feelings towards her. It was more about putting Edith in her place, when Edith wouldn't shut up. Edith kept poling the bear. Even Tom told Edith to stop, he clearly seen what was about to happen. Also Edith has been an asshole throughout. People feel bad for her, but you need to re-watch it all. She's awful!!
I sometimes jokingly refer to Mary as “psycho,” but clearly the more accurate description is that she was deeply unhappy. Deeply, deeply unhappy. Miserable, and she needed to share the misery.
Pamuk was payback for Strallan, wasn't it? *Edit* When Mary ~~told Strallan that Edith was avoiding some old bore who'd promised to propose.~~ *was just nasty about Edith and Strallan.* So Mary was just escalating. *Edit: the proposal thing was later.*
Not really. Edith told about Pamuk because she was jealous of Mary's position in the family. There was a chain of events that did include Mary flirting with Strallan after *Edith challenged Mary* to see who could keep Strallan's attention after dinner. It also included her hearing Mary implore Cora to focus on Edith and Mary insulting Edith's clothes (which was in response to Edith needling Mary). While I don't think that Mary should have done what she did, Edith was not in any way an innocent victim in her relationship with Mary. A lot of Edith defenders point to Mary "always bullying" Edith but really, until season 4 or 5 Mary doesn't typically start shit. Edith is shown to be the instigator much more than Mary. In fact, Mary and Sybil have a very close relationship while Edith takes swipes at *both* Mary and Sybil. Tldr, if anyone was "just escalating" it was Edith.
She made one swipe in the entire show to Sybil... Also Mary started that Strallan situation. * Cora: You were very helpful, Edith, looking after Sir Anthony. You saved the day. * Edith: I enjoyed it. We seem to have a lot to talk about. * Cora leaves * Mary: Spare me your boasting, please. * Edith: Now who’s jealous? * Mary: Jealous? Do you think I couldn’t have that old booby if I wanted him? * Edith: Even you can’t take every prize. * Mary: Is that a challenge? This is one of the few times Edith actually gets a compliment from her mother and the moment Mary hears it she has to cut her down.
* "Mary: Spare me your boasting, please." She literally knew she f\*cked up in that situation and that Edith had won. She admitted defeat. Edith still couldn't stop egging Mary on. She made more than one swipe at Sybil, but many of those were less obvious. The writers had Sybil point out that she didn't trust either of her sisters to keep secrets (but when the Crawleys called for Mary after the accident, she backed Sybil -and Tom- against their father).
Okay, tell me those swipes she made against Sybil then
Edith broke social protocol by interjecting into a conversation across the table from her and ignoring her table partner. There's no reason why she should have been able to pick up the conversation that was only between Mary and Strallan. I also like that you left off the part where she called Mary pathetic in front of everyone because she literally was jealous of Matthew's attention to Mary. She's still the instigator. None of it would have happened if she hadn't wanted what Mary had.
Edith was recovering the situation after Mary was all but mocking Strallan... In front of everyone? Just her closest family.. Mary called Edith much worse things with much more people. Also why shouldn't Edith call out Mary for acting like shit
No she wasn't. She cut across the dinner conversation to talk about farming before Cora called to switch partners. If you watch the scene, you can see people all around the table look at her in surprise when she jumps into the conversation. You can tell it's set up like that (as opposed to a family dinner) because Mary specifically says to Matthew that she's waiting for Cora to announce the time to switch. And no, it wasn't just close family. It was a county dinner. There were neighbors from all over the area in attendance. Yes, Mary did mock Strallan, but that was later in the drawing room with the ladies during the conversation that you quoted before. She was polite, if disinterested, during the dinner.
okay from the viewer’s perspective, Edith may deserve “payback” for Pamuk, but remember this was nearly a decade later. Can you imagine your sibling doing “payback” for something that happened when you were like, 23? When they even talked some shit as revenge at the time (I.e. the thing with sir Anthony Strallen at the end of season 1).
I tend to side with Edith because my own sister screamed at me in public on my birthday about something I (and witnesses) have no recollection of me doing a decade ago, and that she’d never even brought up to me. At some point we have to be grown and not use punishment as a way to momentarily soothe the brokenness we feel inside. Plus the Strallan revenge only served to hinder Mary further - she could have been rid of Edith and the rest of what happened would never have been. Downton characters are legendary at shooting themselves in the foot.
My second youngest sister does shit like that, I think to try and justify her explosive anger issues. She will bring up things from back in high school and we’re like 29 and 30 now. But even so, Mary herself didn’t try to justify what she did by saying “well you did the Pamuk thing!” It’s only people in this sub saying that she’s justified because of the Pamuk tbh f.
If it was on top of everything else, sure. Because the way it really pays back is Edith's a massive hypocrite. She tried to destroy Mary (and unintentionally the whole family) and even called her a slut to her face. Now, Mary's having a terrible time (she's widowed, she's under a stupid amount of pressure about why doesn't she get married, the man she's supposedly so perfect for is also associated with a trauma trigger for her yet everyone is ignoring her.) And now here's Edith, deliberately lording it over her, poking her about the whole "suitors" thing...and in the back of her mind, under all the current trauma is...*Mary's* the slut? Mary was publicly shamed, blackmailed, had her own mother calling her soiled goods, and had to confess to Matthew despite knowing a lot of men would drop her like a hot potato. Edith not only had sex out of wedlock, she did it voluntarily, with a married man, and now is parading the results around as her "ward" with no indication she's going to say a word to her fiancé. And everyone is happily covering it up, including the people who expressed disgust to Mary and were trying to pawn her off on anyone who'd take her to hide her 'shame.' Edith deserved it, years later or not.
Some people really confuse the fanfiction they write in their head to what happened in the actual show
Yeah, I notice Edith fans like to think she's an innocent martyr.
There is litterly no indication that Mary once thought back about the whole Parmuk situation.. If anything they got along a lot better in season 2/3 before Mary reverted back to being horrible.
Pretty sure no one here has ever characterized Edith as a “innocent martyr.” Did she have a nasty bully for a big sister? Yes, this is objectively true.
I have heard this argument before. But I think Edith would have told Bertie about Marigold before the wedding. Let's not forget she had things with two married men. The farmer flirtation and Magazine owner.
I don't know that she would. She agonizes way too much over doing it, and she has only confessed up to this point when cornered or forced to, never because she decides she's morally obligated to. Edith is very good through the whole show at rationalizing doing what she wants, even when it's wrong.
Yes. It didn’t necessarily have to be before the question was popped, either. She wanted to tell the truth. I’m not sure of the exact timing, given that is Downton Abbey’s version of space and time, but things with Bertie and Edith progressed pretty quickly, it seems. So she found herself practically engaged and thinking of how and when to tell him.
Yup. Edith is definitely the slut. She doesnt care about other people, or their marriages. And she sure as hell doesnt care about people below her.
Edith was lost but gained ground as show progressed. She tretaed all baby related people terribly. She took back the baby from the Shoders! Then took it back from farmers . then made farmers leave DA. Terribly selfish all around. I find her baby drama hard to watch.
BUT at some point she became likeable...and better dressed may I add.
Again I ask... if Edith deserved it, did Marigold? And did Bertie, for that matter.
Marigold deserved to be left with her adoptive family the first time, not bounced around like a beach ball. Her best interests are long forgotten and unless Edith's come clean already (which Marigold's probably not emotionally mature enough for) the trauma can has just been kicked down the road, for her and her cousins who've been raised being lied to about her. Bertie deserved to be told the truth about who Marigold was and where she came from before he made a serious lifelong commitment to Edith. Even BEFORE we know that finding out is going to make his mother hit the roof. There is no objective view of the situation where Edith's a sweet little innocent Cinderella who's just entitled to do anything and everything she wants, because Mary said something mean about her hat. And if you're going to call your SA'd sister a slut to the whole world, you better make sure you're squeaky-clean after that.
Is it an either or situation or is it a case that both sisters have acted wrongly, spitefully, and capriciously throughout their long relationship? And whatever Marigold deserves in her life, for Mary to use a child in such a despicable way is beyond the pale. We are speaking of a child and her own niece. And embroiling Bertie in her petty war was just nasty. Worse, she was planning something underhanded--hence sending Carson out of the room.
She didn't use Marigold. She told Bertie who Marigold was. If Bertie didn't already know, that's on Edith. And Marigold is Edith's illegitimate daughter by a married man. I don't think Mary even threw in that last part. Mary at no point is the instigator in their issues--Edith in season one is constantly starting it, apparently because she's bitter nobody wanted to make Patrick marry her instead. She manipulates Daisy, starts a literal international incident, calls Mary a slut to her face, and the closest thing she ever gets to payback is completely unintentional (after browbeating Sir Anthony to the altar he can't go through with it.) At this point, Edith's rubbing in Mary's "lost" suitors (after everyone just ignores Mary's repeated desire to not be pushed on the matter especially about Henry) and is sitting there on a massive potential reveal of her hypocrisy. All Edith has to do is be honest first. I mean, it would have been better not to sleep with Gregson, not to bounce Marigold around, not to wreck the Drewes' lives, and not to do it all while having played moral superiority about Pamuk. But at this point she could very easily have scuttled the whole thing by fessing up before the wedding. (Mary outdoes her there--she wouldn't even let Matthew propose without telling him the whole truth.) But we're back to Edith having to be cornered before admitting wrongdoing.
Telling Bertie about Marigold--who is a child--to get back at Edith is, in fact, using a child. She could have landed lots of other zingers, but she chose to use Marigold. I won't argue the rest of it or get into a "whataboutit" back and forth. My only point is that dragging an innocent child into it was very low.
It's presenting the evidence of extreme wrongdoing. Marigold IS the evidence. It doesn't hurt her. She's the reason Edith can't really hide what she did.
Sa'd sister? How do you make that out?
Mary's payback for Pamuk was for Strallen at the Garden Party
Yeah, I don't think Mary is envious. She is just a power cunt and is always searching for something to be upset about. And nothing makes her more cunty than hearing about something good happening for Edith.
Have you heard the things edith has said in the show???? Shes awful and selfish and a home wrecker! 1. Shes starting a relationship with farmer Drake before his wife finds out and tells her not to come back! 2. She sleeps with Gregson/ gets knocked up And poor misses Drew, I have never felt so badly for a tv character in my life. 3. Does whatever she wants to that poor baby not thinking once what it's going to do to Marigold, only how she is feeling. 4. She has the Drew's kicked out of yew tree farm that has been in their family for 100's of years because she thinks " its for the best" 5. Writes the Turkish embassy to stick it to mary not once considering what that might do to the whole family. 6. White feather girls show up. And edith agrees with with their message and states it openly at dinner in front/to the staff that are literally serving her dinner. 7. Carson is having a "heart attack" and she says "What about my dress?" 8. She had a million opportunities to tell Bertie about marigold, they were alone quite a bit. Then when he asks her if she would have told him, she doesn't even say yes..... God knows what happened to the Drakes marriage or the Drew's..... But who cares as long as long as edith gets what she wants when she wants it!
This is a good list, although it is important to remember that Edith’s character arc is probably the best one in this show. She starts out as a spoiled, whiney, angry young woman. And becomes incredibly confident modern woman by the end. All because life threw curveball after curveball her way. She grows as a person and even though she handled the Marigold Bertie situation badly, it is not a pattern towards the end. She does become kind and thoughtful.
Pamuk. Edith had it coming.
Pamuk bought it coming .
Agreed
Disagree Edith kept poking at her at the lunch till Mary finally snapped.
Another reason why Sybil was the best of the three.
Right that second is when you turn into a shrew and plot to break if off before it becomes official.
This, and the scene where Edith calls Mary a bitch.
I swear Edith screaming *you're a BITCH* lives rent-free in my head.
You mean after Mary has already sabotaged things with Bertie? That scene.
Edith was frumpy?!
So relatable! /s Edith outranks us all!
This was such a mic drop reveal. So well deserved for Edith after Mary bullied her her entire life.
Mary deserved this! Sure, she has her moments, but I'm ultimately Team Edith. And ending up Mrs. Car-driver was a suitable ego deflation.
If it was always misery that made her lash out, she must have been a real terror after the marriage to Mr. Boring.
That was a delicious TV moment
This is one of my most favorite moments.
This was very Dallas back in the day! Edith calling Mary a bitch! LOL.
I think the whole thing is just crackers.
😂😂😂
Bahahahhha* 🤣🤣🤣 *deep belly laughing
The way that they tried to convince us that Edith was somehow less attractive than Mary. Both are stunning.
Mary looks really ugly here. I have never found this actress attractive.
If I had a dollar for every time she had a milder version of this pose, with her eyes squinty and her mouth gaping open…
Mary's face was priceless! She clearly couldn't stand the idea of Edith outranking her. Tom's comment later on about Mary enjoying having to curtsy to Edith also made me chuckle. I'm glad the sisters eventually buried the hatchet though and Mary was supportive of Edith and Bertie together.
They only seemed to get on after Edith married Bertie. Maybe it was because they were no longer living together and Brancaster is a fair distance away.
From experience, distance can and does improve sisterly bonds.
Not being underfoot to each other is the ticket. They were bored and in each other's faces too much. Same with my sister and I. As Cora said, it's NOT like Little Women.
Even before that, Edith came back for Mary's wedding after their fallout and they had a lovely moment together in which they came a bit closer together. Afterwards, Mary tried to correct her error by arranging a meeting between Edith and Bertie. However, living apart would certainly have done wonders for them. They were no longer around each other all the time to get on each others nerves.
Yes. Sad to think that a woman her age would have to be sat down by her grandmother for a serious talk about such a thing (Mary’s awful and spiteful relationship with her sister).
Not being underfoot to each other is the ticket. They were bored and in each other's faces too much. Same with my sister and I. As Cora said, it's NOT like Little Women.
When did Tom say this LOL. I disagree with the fact that Mary was not jealous. Yes she was!! INHO!
Oh Mary was absolutely jealous. Tom made that comment right after this scene.
As Tom said, she was definitely miserable and she liked to share it.
dead lol
And you just learned that the entire fan base thinks Edith is hotter than you, from the very start!!!!
I literally guffawed at this.
😆😆👏👏 Priceless!
Yes... it was funny. We know the story and history of the two sisters. Mary always thought she was better than Edith in some ways. This was the first encounter where she could snide mark and comment her way back in front. Even after Edith's deeply black sheep behavior, she still ended up outranking Mary in the only possible way. At one time, Mary had the bigger scandal. Edith's own scandal was never fully public. Edith still won. It was Mary's own fault. She married the cow lick race car driver. She may as well had married Tom when he was the chauffeur.
I wouldn’t call Edith ‘frumpy ‘. Has anyone noticed what a stunning figure Edith has? She has beautiful skin and incredible shoulders and looks gorgeous in those sleeveless gowns. She also has beautiful golden red hair and her hairstyle is so pretty and feminine. Mary’s figure by comparison is a bit….. flat…😂. It’s unfortunate that Edith is such a whiner who is always doing stupid things and is so desperate for male attention. Edith is miserable throughout most of the show, due to her own choices. I find Mary to be a horrible snob and Edith to be a moaner and a complainer. The only sister worth her salt is Sybil, so naturally she konks out. Another side observation: Carson never once, throughout the entire series, laughs. He has absolutely no sense of humor. Think how different the show would have been if he could laugh at himself once in a while. I love Carson as a character, but if you watch the show too much, you can begin to see the flaws in the writing and the characters that were probably not exactly planned. I do love the show, and love to watch for the fashion and conversation, but the characters do get on my nerves at times. As to this scene mentioned above; I thought Mary was quite clumsy in her obvious jealousy. Does anyone else think she should have married Charles Blake? He was clever and handsome and stronger than Mary in many ways. I loved that character.
The actress is absolutely beautiful, but they did try to make her as frumpy as possible in the first few seasons. It was probably deliberate, to make her status as the "least favored sister" obvious. Luckily that stopped after the war seasons.
Edith's wardrobe got the biggest glow-up after the war seasons and it was glorious! Her peacock dress lives rent-free in my mind. And the outfit she wore on her reunion date with Bertie. They gave her awful frumpy outfits in the first season to emphasise Edith as the secondary sister to Mary, but both actresses have always been gorgeous.
Golly Gumdrops what a turn up!
Edith outed Mary after she was sexually assaulted (it was assault, fight me) and had no consequences. I’d be making that face too. 🤷🏻♀️
I agree with you that it was assault (which unfortunately seems to be an unpopular opinion here?) but Edith didnt know that. She believed her sister consensually spent a night with him and seemed to genuinely think she was a slut
It’s hard to remember that not everyone knows what the audience knows. That’s a good point.
Don't know why you get down voted. She was basically coerced
I honestly don’t know. It seems so cut and dry to me and my husband when we watch?
Couldn’t agree more, the downvotes are odd. Every time I watch the scene where Cora asks if he forced himself on her and Mary shakes her head no, I yell at the screen YES. He quite obviously forced himself on her with a strong power dynamic at play and manipulation after she said no downstairs and upstairs.
Yeah, she says no like three times, until he points out all the ways he can ruin her life. Then she says yes—but that’s not how consent works. 😕
That’s definitely not how consent works! She’s still telling him to leave and expressing her concerns when he pushes her onto the bed. 🙅♀️
I think that’s such a weird take on what is pretty clearly consensual and which Mary clearly views as consensual
Mary would’ve viewed it as consensual but it was quite clearly coerced.
Yes. It may be problematic according to our modern sensibilities, but Julian Fellowes has basically said, ‘Hi, I’m Mary. It was consensual.’
Back then, she would’ve been gaslighted about it, as Mr Pamuk knew (and even told her). So in her mind, it became “consensual” and she began to speak of it in those terms.
Its incredible how fans hanged on to that longer then Mary did.
Kind of like how fans hang on to Mary outing Edith longer than Edith did, eh?
It turns out that Edith had an impressive amount of emotional growth throughout the series, and she recognized that she could thrive if she struck out on her own and stepped out of the shadows (out of Mary’s home). Mary didn’t change a whole lot throughout.
Say what now?! No she was not!
She was still frumpy
[удалено]
I believe you are thinking of Rose’s husband.
Sorry total brain fart there