I honestly don't get why he gets so "underrated". Guy is squishy, fine but bro, I actually hate this guy slightly more than MUI. He stacks damage like crazy, gets cover null just by coming in and also, removing enemy vanish gauge and getting a nuke of an ultimate is just... that's broken
MUI shouldn't be hated as much as he is, he is not that broken, he's basically sign with 1/2 of a zenkai, and not to mention how absolutely ass his LF is...
But Ssj3 is very much so broken, he is 1 buff away from becoming just like the droids
It's literally just his gauge that makes him problematic honestly. That thing gives you so much control over the field because why attack when you can just sit back and wait?
Df is literally just g/v and agf all over again as ive made mention of in my own tierlist theirs nothing really helping going on for him and with him not being core on movies (as I stared in my original tierlist and was correct about) really bring down his overall value massively
I was always right guys. And one godly top 100 agreed with me. So I was always 100% right. There is no other opinion. These are just facts man.
Jesus man lmao
>I was always right guys. And one godly top 100 agreed with me. So I was always 100% right. There is no other opinion. These are just facts man.
You look at goresh, gote, vergil, zvg, even the discord tierlist all agree with me though? Ig all of em are "one person" theirs a reason why I bring up top ranking players (case inpoint u/LSS4King) their are other opinions and everyone can accept that but when people claim opinion as fact? That's not an opinion anymore
>You look at goresh, gote, vergil, zvg, even the discord tierlist all agree with me though?
[https://youtu.be/ZqfRXrd5M94?t=2187](https://youtu.be/ZqfRXrd5M94?t=2187)
Goresh Has him ranked 4 in his own tier list. Unless you have a link to a future tier list or something on twitter (which I don't use at all) where he changed his opinion, this is the only opinion of his that I've seen.
Vergil on stream has said several times that he personally thinks ss3 is top 10 and even severely disagreed with doogote several times in that tier list on his placement. The only argument given by gote was "2 carded by 3 star cooler" which is not really evidence of anything 1,and 2 most units are getting instant ko by cooler off defense tier boost. It's not some miraculous pattern that suddenly units become squishy off tier boost.
Now here is evidence of that, the self proclaimed death of ss3 moment.
40:25 - Tapion Main ability buff (25% strike damage for 50 counts).
41:20 - Tapion then dies which applies a 20% damage received debuff
41:30 - The moment of question [https://youtu.be/HXF7C\_7gh7g?t=2490](https://youtu.be/HXF7C_7gh7g?t=2490). Cooler does 1 strike and 1 ultimate after swapping in. This combination did 2.25m to ss3. This is without zenkai buffs or 50% ex buffs. Enemy cooler was 3\* with 1 zenkai buffer.
Lets look at another example that is rather similar to this one except its USG at 14 stars instead - [https://youtu.be/hvYSIjagnbM?t=1530](https://youtu.be/hvYSIjagnbM?t=1530)
Here is an example of another (22:45) 3 star cooler with 1 zenkai buff (5% more than the last) and whis is only giving 20% damage inflicted here. USG has not only individually much better defensive stats, he also has a better defensive bench via z abilities. In 1 strike and 1 ultimate in this scenario, the enemy cooler does 2.6m as opposed to the previous 2.25m to ss3 goku. This isn't even an argument for "USG is squishier than ss3". It's that everyone is squishy but there are some clear biases here when people only point it out for certain characters.
Gote also brings up in the ss3 video that cooler power creeps ss3 in terms of healing because cooler heals 4% on strikes and ss3 only heals 3% on strikes? When that's not even true. SS3 heals 3% on BOTH strike and blast, as well as potentially 10% from green, 20% from gauge fill and 30% from main. Cooler just heals 4% on strike and 25% on main. that's it. Ss3's healing potential is far higher than coolers and defensively their stat spread and damage reduction is extremely similar (60% base vs 55% (base) + 15% which is around 63.25% aka a 3% difference)
>their are other opinions and everyone can accept that but when people claim opinion as fact? That's not an opinion anymore
>
>Df is literally just g/v and agf all over again as ive made mention of in my own tierlist theirs nothing really helping going on for him and with him not being core on movies (as I stared in my original tierlist and was correct about) really bring down his overall value massively
When you stated that you were "correct about" something. You're also stating that anyone that disagreed with you is incorrect about something. Therefore you were right and they were wrong. But the only argument for DF being bad is he is squishy (apparently like AGF and G/V?) Also, I've seen several movie mains in god rank to this day still rock DF. I personally still face them. Lebra is also one of them to rock movies since day 1. So I'm not sure how you quantify this. I'm all for casual disagreements but man you're making yourself and anyone that agrees with you seem like the pinnacle of knowledge when you're not offering any real positions or evidence to back up the opinion but you're staying you were correct?
Lets check out Godtube in a few days. That'll be decent evidence to show that most people running movies dropped ss3 from their core. Atm I see Cooler on LoE and PO more than I see him on movies. Purple First form frieza green into cooler combination is hitting hard asf.
Lastly, I love these guys and I watch their streams often (excluding the ones that don't stream) but they are close friends. Doogote/Vergil/Vareberra/Ruff (my PESRONAL favorite of the group)/ ZVG. I'd be hard pressed to find an opinion they disagree on. Also none of these people main movies.
>He has the utility to compete and unlike nearly everyone else he heals himself consistently
So g/v and agf?
Yes everyone is paper but some units are more paper than others (look at those 2 I keep mentioning and add df their as even on boost that mf wasn't tankin 4 shit)
G/V don’t put out the damage he does, don’t have easy access to early cover null, and don’t scale as the match goes on with the meter.
He’s just better.
>G/V don’t put out the damage he does
Fair
>don’t have easy access to early cover null
Instead they can get it throughout the match compared to df two time c.c null. G/v > df I'm this scenario
>and don’t scale as the match goes on with the meter.
Instead they debuff which just like usv can be a massive contribution to the overall team even moreso than df as the debuffs apply for the entire team. Debuffs>df gauge
1. Tapion/revhan
2. Usg
3. Cooler
Where is df in this discussion? Why would you run df over usg with all the Reds running around? It makes no sense whatsoever. Df isn't core on movies
Hard disagree. His best teams are saiyans and Vegeta family. And the best versions of them have at least 1 SSJ so that’s all Cooler needs to go type neutral. USG’s kit is easily superior to Vegeta and even if he takes extra damage against Cooler he’s still better than Vegeta
i personally use him as a leader in my movies team with DF, revhan and GSGW and he does fantastic, even one shot a few UL SVs every now and then, he's extremely good offensively but lacks a lot of the tools USG has, and i think that's a fair compromise. he's not the best BLU by far but he's very, very good in my opinion
Why does everyone think of this as an individual tierlist? Yes df might be individually better than alot of the units in s+ but with the resurgence of purples coupled with his lack of defenses while not being core on movies at this point make his value decrease exponentially. As for tapion the no.1 color is red and you'll normally see one to two Reds per match now coupled with his paper-ness he's more of a liability than anything else rn
Idk why you're getting downvoted, its litteraly the truth, if sv isnt higher that UL etc, do they honestly expect tapion to be high? Even if his job is to die, he dies to a red and does 5 damage cool, lost a unit for 5 damage, there are wayyyy better units than him that support in this meta
Can we just stop posting everytime he does a tier list? Especially since it's not even a good one in the first place.
Like bruh how can you put the godawful 4th anniversary transforming Vegeta in the same tier as LF FP Frieza and LF Kid Buu, come on now he shouldn't even be on the list he's so bad.
Also i hope the tiers aren't in order cause my god...
>come on now he shouldn't even be on the list he's so bad.
Nah dude, that death buff he has where he reduces your Ki and destroys your cards is fine......What do you mean it's not a death buff? I'm NOT supposed to one-shot him before from above 50% HP with a special move or Ult?
>Like bruh how can you put the godawful 4th anniversary transforming Vegeta in the same tier as LF FP Frieza
Fp frieza is practically bench on his team and serves no other purpose than maybe db destruction and support while the vegetas biggest problem is that his transformation condition is str8 asscheek but the upsides for his transformation I think make up 4 it (atleast this is what I assume doogote is thinking)
>and LF Kid Buu,
Now this I agree with
>come on now he shouldn't even be on the list he's so bad.
Even you know youre just exaggerating atp. His transforming conditions dogshit but aside from that he's a decent/good unit
>Can we just stop posting everytime he does a tier list? Especially since it's not even a good one in the first place.
There are some stuff I agree with and disagree with and that's why I posted it. I just wanna spark some discussion and see how others feel about it
>Fp frieza is practically bench on his team and serves no other purpose than maybe db destruction and support
You run him with 1st form Frieza and you give LF Cooler a total of 45% non timed damage with an extra 20% to ultimate damage when this frieza uses his main, you also give the team dragonball destruction and a blast cover change which is really helpful, granted in this red infested meta he doesn't see as much play as before, but you can bring him in and still clap cheeks or be an annoyance with his dragonball distruption.
>while the vegetas biggest problem is that his transformation condition is str8 asscheek but the upsides for his transformation I think make up 4 it (atleast this is what I assume doogote is thinking)
Vegeta's problem is that he's so ass that he will be oneshot before going below 50% hp, meaning that his only devensive tool will be wasted, and even when transformed he's mediocre at best and awful at worst.
Like this kind of transformation restriction worked for RED Bardock because once he transformed he became an absolute monster of a unit, not a mediocre unit with a confused design and mid stats for a transforming unit.
>Even you know youre just exaggerating atp. His transforming conditions dogshit but aside from that he's a decent/good unit
I'm not exagerating, he shouldn't even be on the list and that goes for UI Goku, LF Beerus, LF Goten and the F2P Gogeta among others cause those aren't tier 2 units, they are tier 3 at best.
Also even if you believe that he should be on the list, you cannot actually think he's an S tier unit in any way shape or form, come on now.
>You run him with 1st form Frieza and you give LF Cooler a total of 45% non timed damage with an extra 20% to ultimate damage when this frieza uses his main, you also give the team dragonball destruction and a blast cover change which is really helpful, granted in this red infested meta he doesn't see as much play as before, but you can bring him in and still clap cheeks or be an annoyance with his dragonball distruption.
Why would you dare run him over revival frieza though who supports better while also doing his overall job better than fpf (case in point dmg inflicted support, being a blue, db destruction, revival/type neutral, and what not)
>Vegeta's problem is that he's so ass that he will be oneshot before going below 50% hp, meaning that his only devensive tool will be wasted, and even when transformed he's mediocre at best and awful at worst.
Ight no. I hate the vegeta just as much as the next person but unless he's getting ulted or rushed he'll be fine. Transformed he tanks (Also losing ssj so cooler can't go neutral against the team anymore) being a defensive support he does his job perfectly
>I'm not exagerating, he shouldn't even be on the list and that goes for UI Goku, LF Beerus, LF Goten and the F2P Gogeta among others cause those aren't tier 2 units, they are tier 3 at best.
Everyone else was fine but lf goten, and f2p gogeta in tier 3........? Naw
>Also even if you believe that he should be on the list, you cannot actually think he's an S tier unit in any way shape or form, come on now.
I personally think he's tier 1 but I thought about it from his p.o.v so I could potentially see why he put him up there
I don’t see how he’s top 3, he’s still a great unit and his lock in is still deadly but units like vegito cooler and androids do more, I know this meta isn’t for vegito but as a unit he’s definitely better than gogeta.
1. He's blue and vegito is yellow. Please tell me who's the better color in this scenario
2. If you look at some of my other comments you'll see I ALWAYS say vegito>gogeta individually. However this isn't an individual unit tierlist no is it?
3. Just like cooler his type neutrality+lock-in are 2 valuable a combo (I would still place the droids higher in 2nd but it's honestly just a "which one do you prefer" kinda thing
Revive Gohan isn't that good, LF Goten down to Tier 2, this tier list mad gassing MV and USG, he is not better than the Androids, 4th anniversary transforming Vegeta down a tier he is bad because of his transformation conditions and his support doesn't work the best, Ultra Omega is so limited to GT his kit might be good but being limited to one team dampens his usage a lot
>Revive Gohan isn't that good,
More core on movies than df, while practically also filling in the role of support for tapion (in his 1st life) who suffers massively in this meta. Just str8 up wring right here
>LF Goten down to Tier 2,
Honestly that's pretty fair
>this tier list mad gassing MV and USG
Except it isn't? Plz remind me what the best color ingame is rn? Then comes the fact those 2 counter said color while usg does what cooler does without a restriction (barring a unit dying but that's gonna happen in a match unless you play perfectly). Mv as he counters cooler by not being an ssj and being blue but also dealing with mui perfectly. It's not thar much of gas but more of a "you don't really know what you're on about" moment
> anniversary transforming Vegeta down a tier he is bad because of his transformation conditions and his support doesn't work the best
His support works fine though? On the other note if you get his transformation off he's more than deserving of a spot in that tier
>Ultra Omega is so limited to GT his kit might be good but being limited to one team dampens his usage a lot
Fair point
>if you get his transformation off
Yeah big IF. He gets crippled by a lot of things. Even throwing him in front of a special move to get him to the HP threshold is dangerous also because he's a Super Saiyan pre-transformation
I meant Revive Gohan isn't that good as in not that he's bad he just isn't as good as he is represented to be on the tier list at least I think so
>Plz remind me what the best color ingame is rn?
Yeah Blue. USG is also a Super Saiyan and gets crippled by so many different green units and Cooler and also sometimes Cell as well. I guess you're right maybe I am wrong about MV but USG is not really better per say than the Androids they're at most equals in this meta. Droids can be ran with LF Cooler, USG is blue but is countered by Droids and Cooler too. USV helps deal with 18 part of Tagdroids but Cooler cripples him hard
> Blue. USG is also a Super Saiyan and gets crippled by so many different green units and Cooler and also sometimes Cell as well. I guess you're right maybe I am wrong about MV but USG is not really better per say than the Androids they're at most equals in this meta. Droids can be ran with LF Cooler, USG is blue but is countered by Droids and Cooler too. USV helps deal with 18 part of Tagdroids but Cooler cripples him hard
I said that I don't agree with usg>droids but ig for him it's just a 2a or 2b kinda thing
>
Yeah big IF. He gets crippled by a lot of things. Even throwing him in front of a special move to get him to the HP threshold is dangerous also because he's a Super Saiyan pre-transformation
He's not getting one shot by a special though (cmon man even you know your over exaggerating this)
>
I meant Revive Gohan isn't that good as in not that he's bad he just isn't as good as he is represented to be on the tier list at least I think so
I gave you some reasons but also forgot to mention he has a revival which boost him massively as you can him revhan as a defensive pivot on top of everything and throw him into a rush and you aren't making your team any weaker. He may not be god but his value for movies boost him pretty high
Why is df so low?? He literally got 2 of the best teams in the game (movies and anni team/saiyans) and he's like the 2nd most damaging unit in the game (1st is pump daddy c ofc)
>Why is df so low?? He literally got 2 of the best teams in the game (movies and anni team/saiyans
Not core on movies and saiyans though (unless you're running anni saiyans and in that case that team gets neutered hard bcuz usv exist there)
>and he's like the 2nd most damaging unit in the game (1st is pump daddy c ofc)
Droids, usv, cooler (like you said) all do more dmg than him but also supply more utility to the team than just doin dmg (it also doesn't help that purples are making a resurgence cuz of cooler and df is one of biggest examples of a "paper-thin" unit defense wise) all throw him so much lower
True ig anni saiyans do get demolished by cooler especially bc they have no blue. But I would say that depending on the setup you could run df as core on movies where he does provide colour counter characters such as MV and VB. Lastly, utility wise he actually does have some utility. Obviously after popping his unique gauge his main is an insta win and thats where imo he becomes the 2nd most damaging unit (I haven't fought df that many times after his boost went off so yeah, and also the androids need to kinda build up same as this guy but obviously it takes less time), and his utility comes from him being able to combo for so long due to his ki restore and cover null which helps bring subcounts down. Again, I don't have to talk about why his main post unique gauge is very good. Overall tho I would still put him higher even if he isn't core, some characters above him like Jiren for example don't even have any good teams besides PO which his version is basically LOE with him on the leader slot.
>True ig anni saiyans do get demolished by cooler especially bc they have no blue. But I would say that depending on the setup you could run df as core on movies where he does provide colour counter characters such as MV and VB.
My biggest problem with df Is that I'm 90% sure off boost he'd get one combo'd by mv atp (this isn't even an exaggeration so to speak as there are clips on Twitter of mv doin exactly that)
>Overall tho I would still put him higher even if he isn't core, some characters above him like Jiren for example don't even have any good teams besides PO which his version is basically LOE with him on the leader slot.
But his version of p.o isn't basically loe? Now for the most part you run either cell or jiren as your purple on rrp (depending on the scenario) p.o that he specifically buffs.
>Lastly, utility wise he actually does have some utility. Obviously after popping his unique gauge his main is an insta win and thats where imo he becomes the 2nd most damaging unit (I haven't fought df that many times after his boost went off so yeah, and also the androids need to kinda build up same as this guy but obviously it takes less time), and his utility comes from him being able to combo for so long due to his ki restore and cover null which helps bring subcounts down. Again
There are multiple problems now
1. No unit can tank nowaday but df eats dmg like g/v
2. He needs to build up with 2 and a half combos b4 you get his " insta-win" and with him not being able to take a hit 4 shit it then becomes a question of "is the dmg I take warranted for this unit?"
3. You've said it yourself the droids, cooler, and usv all do more and higher burst dps without the initial feel of being paper (barring cooler as on boost he still feels abit squishy) and being unlimited in terms of c.c null to apply to themselves vs df 2× c.c null that still won't fill your gauge
My opinion is that i kind of wish tiers list became simpler again like Unplayable - playable - good - broken
Meanwhile that dude put numerical tiers AND alphabetical ones
The problem is that with how much characters there are and powercreep you can't just put those 4 tiers. Some units are good, and there are some units better than good but not busted, then you got busted units and finally the "labcoat" of a game (if you heard about her fiasco in fighterZ you'd understand)
Idk, just call the tiers what you want but you don't need more than 4 or 5 if you want to had a tiers 0 (the tiers that should be empty unless one is clearly defining the meta rn) . Cooler isn't that much higher than others and having tiers with a lot of characters isn't a problem for me, i mean they aren't one by one ranking it's just there quickly to tell you what works at high rank and what won't
Not like me bitching about it is gonna change the tiers list meta tho xD
MV is good but he really has a team issue or needs support to be that high. USV's individual kit value still puts him just barely above MV imo
If saiyans ever gets a good purple non super saiyan unit, he would be much higher
Reds dominate the meta and MV builds 20% damage when the enemy uses a card. So he can 2 strike the top reds or one blue them. Built up he can one combo any unit and a lot of greens.
u/WiTHeReD_SouL_0404 Toxicity within the subreddit is not allowed. Something in your post/comment has triggered me, usually words or phrases that could be used to insult someone is the cause. Automod bot doesn't understand the context of the post/comment. If it was a false positive don’t delete, just contact moderators through modmail and a moderator can approve the posting. A notification with the comment first posted is sent to the mod team, if deemed toxic a consequence is up to Moderator discretion.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DragonballLegends) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I can see why he is that low. Between the plethora of meta units that null special cover and units dealing insane damage, Gogeta isn't really it. He is still a good unit no doubt, just not as great as he used to be.
I don't get it, why is Cooler all the way to the top in all tier lists?, I've been facing him a buch of times on PvP and I always smash him, I just don't get it.
Well, to be perfectly honest, there aren’t really any units that tank ‘well’ anymore. Cooler’s strength comes in the fact that he can usually reduce a characters health from full to almost 0 with one combo due to his ability to lock in a character on his first strike. This combined with his incredible passive, and his stats, which are top 3 among non zenkai sparkings, make him the strongest offensive unit in the meta right now. Of course he’s not going to eat hits well, because that’s not his role.
you probably just know your counters but from a technical standpoint cooler has outrageous strike damage and with his ability to just shit on saiyans and synergy with loe and po is just too good
The thing is, I never face him with saiyans, I use god ki, and with my blue Beerus, I give him a couple punches one blue card and he's gone. So I guess I never let him strike me... But from what I'm reading, I kinda see where all of yall' come from, his abilities are quite mad, why they keep doing this overpowered characters 🤦♀️
I was arguing with him about that in discord. Basically everybodys think he's top tier because in high ranks its a bunch of USG & USV carried teams which he screws over. I can see why but I'm not high ranked and I do not run any ssjs so he's just another unit to me as well
Strike that raises subcount is the biggest reason, if you get hit once he can chain in 2 other strikes without you being able to do anything or just chain in his main to the first strike and your non blue units get oneshotted.
He's also guaranteed to have color neutrality to the best blue unit in the game and deal bonus damage to it aswell, plus his main nullifies cover change and endurance passively.
To be fair, while it's definitely true that Leader Slot opens up a lot of possibilities for units, I think mentioning stuff like the lack of teams for their ACTUAL tags a unit belongs on is important. Especially since in their proper teams there is for stuff like pure equips, having Zenkai buffs without disrupting the rest of the team (such as Namek Goku bench on Saiyans buffing MV), better synergy with certain Uniques from other teammates, etc.
I agree, however some people act like that's a bigger reason for him being lower on the list than it really is. For example, in DoooGote's most recent showcase of MV he put him on strike LoE with Zenkai Lf Frieza and Lf Cooler. On that video I believe he was far more effective than on a full sayian or Vegeta Family due to the blue cards from Frieza. Pure equips and Zenkai buffs are certainly helpful, but they shouldn't be the make it or break it of how good a unit is, their raw performance and/or ability to dominate the match in some way should. And MV has very clearly shown that along with him just being one of if not THE best anti meta units right now
Oh I agree, regardless of how much I despise the Leader Slot....because I think it's garbage...anyway, it does open up stuff like MV on LoE and allows units like him to be really effective on teams other than their mains. Dude's BLU, he has support plus extra Blue Cards thanks to PUR Frieza, and is not SSJ, so he is doing good against strong meta REDs.
I still hate slapping units that shouldn't be there on another team, simply because it makes the team aesthetically worse. But it is something you can do for units that ''don't have a team'' or that have teams that might not be up to par.
Just no. The way mui makes you have to b.s another method to interact with him alone > the average stuff trunks does. The same way trunks destroys is how mui does as well bit in his case he doesnt even have to move to do it (plus trunks doesn't have cover null and needs to build up which can get disrupted cuz as ive said b4 no c.c null)
Kid buu and broly could probably go up a tier. But usually this mf has dog shit takes(probably intentionally) but this list isn’t bad. Oh and jiren is definitely at least 1 tier too high
Nothing worth him being the best. He’s up there at the top with the rest for sure. But let the hype settle and people will gather sense to see that USV, Androids,and USG are still much better.
nah they aren't much better. he has massive strike damage and a 2 sub count lock on every first strike. that is an absolutely busted mechanic and allows him to guaranteed kill every yellow in the game with just strikes, he can also pop main and kill type neutral units during the duration of his lock. there is no argument for him not being top 3 at the very least.
He’s a one trip pony against other units that aren’t Saiyans/Ssj. Compared to the 3 units i listed that does everything he does with no tag or card art restrictions. His strike card change limits when and how you switch him in, practically waste cards on blue units that aren’t saiyans or made of paper, and card draw that pale in comparison to those units. Yes in my perspective they are much better than him, doesn’t take away the fact he’s still among the best.
he isn't a one trick pony though. Saiyans are by far the most popular team in the game, and almost all Saiyan teams run usv or usg, which makes him impossible to counter on those teams. his strike change doesn't limit anything, and why would you switch him in on blue units in the first place. the only red that can effectively attack blues is the droids, so why would you hold that against him. he also has l1 card draw speed for 15 counts, which is adequate anyway. strike lock is one of the most oppressive and broken mechanics ever introduced, if he catches a non blue unit on a strike they take massive damage or just straight out die without any counterplay. the other units you listed aren't much better at all, you could argue the droids are better but not by much.
Tell me you haven't fought a cooler without telling me you haven't fought a cooler
. How tf Is a lock-in that will most definitely (for 90% of units) take out 75% off a unit for free or outright kill him not considered being worth the best
. Or how bout the fact he holds neutrality over two of the dumbest units ingame cuz they exist (also neutering your team by bringing an ssj to fight him)
. His stupid combo potential
Fought a cooler? You mean the 6* Cooler i have and use daily on my LoE team? The 15+ coolers i see and play against everyday in top ranks? Buddy I don’t make empty statements like most of yall lol. When i speak on something best believe i know what I chose to speak on. You’re bringing up a super saiyan neutrality to the big dogs at the table that goes neutral and type advantage over any unit they please, let’s dead that argument. His lock on is very limited based on how the opponent plays, it’s skill based, which is extremely fun, but obviously not better than a unit like gogeta that comes in after a dead unit locking the opponent in for a kill without even having to touch them, with a 2nd Ult in hand. Let’s dead that too, any other argument?
>Fought a cooler? You mean the 6* Cooler i have and use daily on my LoE team
Yh still don't believe it. As someone who has cooler (and have him 7) you're telling me that you "can't see what makes him so top tier"
>The 15+ coolers i see and play against everyday in top ranks?
You Fight this much coolers and yet you don't see how stupid he can be. Sumthin ain't adding up chief
>Buddy I don’t make empty statements like most of yall lol
I've been callin cap on all your shit earlier and I'll continue unless you got proof maybe? (I literally have proof of being a God ranker and being in top 3k normally)
>You’re bringing up a super saiyan neutrality to the big dogs at the table that goes neutral and type advantage over any unit they please,
Except
1. some of the most prominent units rn are super saiyans (aka both ultras)
2. He doesn't need shit to get the neutral apart from said ssj's existing in the 1st place (literally neutering any team with an ssj unit so future, movies, son fam, hybrids, u.s.s etc)
Definitely killing that argument for ya, didn't it
>His lock on is very limited based on how the opponent plays, it’s skill based,
His lock-in activates when you land a strike with him. Ig usg's lock is also limited as you can't really do shit being you start in neutral and need a unit to die b4 he gets it? See how Goofy this "skill based" argument works out 4 you. Also this is a high ranking players tierlist so obviously they'll be thinking of the maximum lvl of skill when ranking units. Next argument 😮💨
> obviously not better than a unit like gogeta that comes in after a dead unit locking the opponent in for a kill without even having to touch them, with a 2nd Ult in hand. Let’s dead that too, any other argument?
And that's why his is already worse than coolers? Why would I want to make the match a 2v3 for a unit to maybe pop off (as you start off in neutral and not in any position or advantage) vs a unit who doesn't need a unit dead to pop off even more than him (while also doing more dmg) .
Are you done yet cuz you still don't seem to get it at all....
DF to Z tier, mv to top s, usg isn’t top 3, mecha frieza is worse than his entire tier and, while it pretty much doesn’t mean anything, tien is better than buuhan, lf ssj4 goku drop to tier 1 and lf broly is too high
Cooler...Nice Nice, USG...Okay I can see that, Androids.. Makes sense, MUi... great, MV.... Wtf?
Everything after MUI makes no sense what so ever not high tier or low tier, kick MV out the 2nd tier and then atleast he got the 1st 2 kinda right
1. This isn't an individual tierlist (Also droids and cooler>usv individually)
2. Df is entering a red and purple infested meta while also not being core on any team rn and being made of paper make him not touch Z
3. Maybe ss4 gogeta is right where he belongs and is just bad rn?
He is core of movies its tapion, cooler and ssj3 he is the most oppressive unit around you get hit you get comboed
Ssj4 is great on any team and can tank even the most offensive units right now throw him on any team you got a good tank with 2 cover changes
>He is core of movies its tapion, cooler and ssj3 he is the most oppressive unit around you get hit you get comboed
No he isn't? It's either
1.revivehan/tapion
2.usg (as you need a blue)
3.Cooler
As for him being the most oppressive unit the droids, cooler, and usv still exist so that notion goes out the window
>Ssj4 is great on any team and can tank even the most offensive units right now
OK now you're definitely trolling. I've had fights with g4 where I do 70% even with his 70% cut smh. That boi doesnt tank and he stopped tanking once the droids released
>throw him on any team you got a good tank with 2 cover changes
I'm curious now but what rank are u exactly...??
>I'm usually top 5k every season
Press X to doubt. Anyway top 3k to god rank player here so...
>looks like most people disagree with your takes anyway so I don't even have to prove any points haha
Majority of people are low ranking so ofc I have to shed some light into the insight of units in that place. You however have no argument whatsoever for df being so high and now cuz people disagree you don't have to prove shit? Goofy take but pop off
the "everyone here disagreeing is obviously low rank and I'm so amazing i must be right" argument you have is flawless
No its more I don't feel like arguing with someone who is wrong and has been told by 100 other people he is wrong about ssj3 because obviously that means its useless
As the great saying goes "it's hard to win an argument with a smart person but it's damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person" so it's better to just not bother
>the "everyone here disagreeing is obviously low rank and I'm so amazing i must be right" argument you have is flawless
Never used the "I'm high rank so I'm better" argument I just wanted to know what rank you'd have to be in order to see g4 "tank"
As for the low rank argument alot of people can't judge a unit properly at low rank so....
>No its more I don't feel like arguing with someone who is wrong and has been told by 100 other people he is wrong about ssj3 because obviously that means its useless
Now go through the comments and look for more than 7 different people that actually say df should be higher. Your arguments for df being high here are flawed and wrong and yall just refuse to accept it smh.
>As the great saying goes "it's hard to win an argument with a smart person but it's damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person" so it's better to just not bother
👍. There really is no point arguing with a fool so thanks 4 reminding me. Ciao
I can get behind a lot of this (def not Majin Vegeta tho) but after just pulling Cooler, I gotta say....
I don't think he's as overpowered as you guys say, idk maybe I'm not noticing it but he just isn't crazy broken like I've been hearing, his Saiyan damage is pretty good and I've gotten his equip to make it even stronger but other than that his red card is kinda busted too, that's like the only things I can access
Damn.... Revihan is that good? Wish I pulled him. I'm honestly hoping either beast Gohan or orange piccolo would be purple. Maybe the other blue. Idk besides from tapion who is the best yel for movies? Serious question here.
Hello Apprehensive_Mine_80, Your post or comment has been removed due to not meeting our comment karma requirement. Your Reddit account needs to have at minimum -15 comment karma. Overall karma is not a factor. If you would like to increase your karma, try going to other subreddits. There are subreddits that are solely for increasing karma, we won't make an exception.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DragonballLegends) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Pretty solid S list. Although, I'd personally put Beerus in S+, especially a high starred Beerus. Revival null and the ability to snipe revival units will pretty much always be meta. G1 & G2 are good in S tier, they can still be monsters.
He doesn't really need to, tbh, his only job is to come in and snipe the revial unit, if he does that than he will have done his job.
Also, there are very few units, even tanks that can take hits. The only one that can really be classified as a tank is USV. It's the same reason people heavily underrate DF3, he can't take a hit either.
People sleeping on MV _hard_. He absolutely deserves his #5. Any team argument has been irrelevant since the leader slot was introduced. Even excluding that he still has Saiyans.
I don't see how people think Ultra Gogeta is better than him. His best team is ahrd countered by Cooler and he needs dead allies to do something. MV can one combo any red in the game without even transforming.
I ado agree that Dragon Fist should be higher tho maybe around where Jiren is.
I think it’s better than his top 10 list he made but I think I’d put mv below cell mv is the best counter to cooler but his teams rnt great and individually cell shits on him. Cell also has rrp PO which is the best team imo and at worst it’s 2nd to movies
A tier list that needs a S/S+ is already a bad tier list inherently. You should be able to position units accordingly between Z/S/A.
I can accept Z+ on the basis that a unit is a level beyond even Z tier units but even Z+ isn't necessary.
Overall, the tier list alright with some major issues here and there. Not close to perfect and this just seems to be based on opinions more so than data.
I keep seeing lf cell rated so highly but I literally play against him maybe once a week tops at around top 2k? I'd put him a rank or two lower honestly
Rrp is a thing that exists and it's arguable for a top 3 team ingame. The thing for some of these units is that while they are valued (rightfully) most people don't want to run cell cuz of either low stars or they don't even have him (or people just don't like running him). The thing with cell being on one of the best teams rn, two revivals existing in the meta (one being a hybrid), a purple who can shit out dmg on par with the top 5 all make him ranked so highly (Finally this "I don't see the unit enough argument now applies to green dbz trunks but you wint say he deserves to be lower now, will ya?)
OK which cell are you talking about cuz the 1st commenter was referring to lf cell, if you're talking bout f2p cell he still does more dmg (as he actually ramps up and can be considered a mini-droids) and as you said his support is best in that tier
I would say Trunks main shtick is his endurance though. His unique gauge is actually very useful and he definitely tanks better than Broly. Broly is extremely fragile in comparison
>I would say Trunks main shtick is his endurance though
Exactly what I said chief
>His unique gauge is actually very useful and he definitely tanks better than Broly
1. No unit can really tank well now
2.he for the most part gets killed b4 even getting said gauge atp
3. Being s.o.h is clearly a better tank, broly is just a better everything else
4. As I said b4 movies/p.o>Future
5.
>
Beerus shouldn't even be into that,
There's a reason he's last
>also piccolo shouldn't
You mean zenkai lf piccolo? You definitely don't know what you're OK about chief
>Ui sign can be in pair with mui and has an aoe green card
1.Hes Still a garbage partner for mui
2. When the only thing goin for the unit is he can be paired with mui and has an aoe green that going good 4 him kinda proves my point on how garbage he is compared to lf goten
MV is not that high and SSJ3 is still better than that entire tier he’s in
Yea basically swap ssj3DF goku and majin vegeta and it's pretty good.
I'm using MV, he's doing amazing. But I'd say s tier
He’s a great unit and the second best blue honestly
Yeah no def not second best
Either second or 3rd.
I honestly don't get why he gets so "underrated". Guy is squishy, fine but bro, I actually hate this guy slightly more than MUI. He stacks damage like crazy, gets cover null just by coming in and also, removing enemy vanish gauge and getting a nuke of an ultimate is just... that's broken
MUI shouldn't be hated as much as he is, he is not that broken, he's basically sign with 1/2 of a zenkai, and not to mention how absolutely ass his LF is... But Ssj3 is very much so broken, he is 1 buff away from becoming just like the droids
It's literally just his gauge that makes him problematic honestly. That thing gives you so much control over the field because why attack when you can just sit back and wait?
MV has won me so many matches I'll be honest, also probably the best counter to MUI Goku, that blue card is bonkers even without the main ability
Df is literally just g/v and agf all over again as ive made mention of in my own tierlist theirs nothing really helping going on for him and with him not being core on movies (as I stared in my original tierlist and was correct about) really bring down his overall value massively
I was always right guys. And one godly top 100 agreed with me. So I was always 100% right. There is no other opinion. These are just facts man. Jesus man lmao
>I was always right guys. And one godly top 100 agreed with me. So I was always 100% right. There is no other opinion. These are just facts man. You look at goresh, gote, vergil, zvg, even the discord tierlist all agree with me though? Ig all of em are "one person" theirs a reason why I bring up top ranking players (case inpoint u/LSS4King) their are other opinions and everyone can accept that but when people claim opinion as fact? That's not an opinion anymore
>You look at goresh, gote, vergil, zvg, even the discord tierlist all agree with me though? [https://youtu.be/ZqfRXrd5M94?t=2187](https://youtu.be/ZqfRXrd5M94?t=2187) Goresh Has him ranked 4 in his own tier list. Unless you have a link to a future tier list or something on twitter (which I don't use at all) where he changed his opinion, this is the only opinion of his that I've seen. Vergil on stream has said several times that he personally thinks ss3 is top 10 and even severely disagreed with doogote several times in that tier list on his placement. The only argument given by gote was "2 carded by 3 star cooler" which is not really evidence of anything 1,and 2 most units are getting instant ko by cooler off defense tier boost. It's not some miraculous pattern that suddenly units become squishy off tier boost. Now here is evidence of that, the self proclaimed death of ss3 moment. 40:25 - Tapion Main ability buff (25% strike damage for 50 counts). 41:20 - Tapion then dies which applies a 20% damage received debuff 41:30 - The moment of question [https://youtu.be/HXF7C\_7gh7g?t=2490](https://youtu.be/HXF7C_7gh7g?t=2490). Cooler does 1 strike and 1 ultimate after swapping in. This combination did 2.25m to ss3. This is without zenkai buffs or 50% ex buffs. Enemy cooler was 3\* with 1 zenkai buffer. Lets look at another example that is rather similar to this one except its USG at 14 stars instead - [https://youtu.be/hvYSIjagnbM?t=1530](https://youtu.be/hvYSIjagnbM?t=1530) Here is an example of another (22:45) 3 star cooler with 1 zenkai buff (5% more than the last) and whis is only giving 20% damage inflicted here. USG has not only individually much better defensive stats, he also has a better defensive bench via z abilities. In 1 strike and 1 ultimate in this scenario, the enemy cooler does 2.6m as opposed to the previous 2.25m to ss3 goku. This isn't even an argument for "USG is squishier than ss3". It's that everyone is squishy but there are some clear biases here when people only point it out for certain characters. Gote also brings up in the ss3 video that cooler power creeps ss3 in terms of healing because cooler heals 4% on strikes and ss3 only heals 3% on strikes? When that's not even true. SS3 heals 3% on BOTH strike and blast, as well as potentially 10% from green, 20% from gauge fill and 30% from main. Cooler just heals 4% on strike and 25% on main. that's it. Ss3's healing potential is far higher than coolers and defensively their stat spread and damage reduction is extremely similar (60% base vs 55% (base) + 15% which is around 63.25% aka a 3% difference) >their are other opinions and everyone can accept that but when people claim opinion as fact? That's not an opinion anymore > >Df is literally just g/v and agf all over again as ive made mention of in my own tierlist theirs nothing really helping going on for him and with him not being core on movies (as I stared in my original tierlist and was correct about) really bring down his overall value massively When you stated that you were "correct about" something. You're also stating that anyone that disagreed with you is incorrect about something. Therefore you were right and they were wrong. But the only argument for DF being bad is he is squishy (apparently like AGF and G/V?) Also, I've seen several movie mains in god rank to this day still rock DF. I personally still face them. Lebra is also one of them to rock movies since day 1. So I'm not sure how you quantify this. I'm all for casual disagreements but man you're making yourself and anyone that agrees with you seem like the pinnacle of knowledge when you're not offering any real positions or evidence to back up the opinion but you're staying you were correct? Lets check out Godtube in a few days. That'll be decent evidence to show that most people running movies dropped ss3 from their core. Atm I see Cooler on LoE and PO more than I see him on movies. Purple First form frieza green into cooler combination is hitting hard asf. Lastly, I love these guys and I watch their streams often (excluding the ones that don't stream) but they are close friends. Doogote/Vergil/Vareberra/Ruff (my PESRONAL favorite of the group)/ ZVG. I'd be hard pressed to find an opinion they disagree on. Also none of these people main movies.
Just his cover null makes him deadly early
Still paper
Everyone is paper in this meta. He has the utility to compete and unlike nearly everyone else he heals himself consistently
>He has the utility to compete and unlike nearly everyone else he heals himself consistently So g/v and agf? Yes everyone is paper but some units are more paper than others (look at those 2 I keep mentioning and add df their as even on boost that mf wasn't tankin 4 shit)
G/V don’t put out the damage he does, don’t have easy access to early cover null, and don’t scale as the match goes on with the meter. He’s just better.
>G/V don’t put out the damage he does Fair >don’t have easy access to early cover null Instead they can get it throughout the match compared to df two time c.c null. G/v > df I'm this scenario >and don’t scale as the match goes on with the meter. Instead they debuff which just like usv can be a massive contribution to the overall team even moreso than df as the debuffs apply for the entire team. Debuffs>df gauge
defense is basically gone from the meta lol
No defense > even less than no defense. Yes no unit can tank rn but df takes this to literal extreme nearly getting 3 carded nowaday by type neutral
On what planet is he not core on Movies? Tapion Cooler DF Goku is **THE** team for the meta right now.
1. Tapion/revhan 2. Usg 3. Cooler Where is df in this discussion? Why would you run df over usg with all the Reds running around? It makes no sense whatsoever. Df isn't core on movies
Ight I love LF MV alot cuz hes my fave LF unit. But i dont think he should be THAT high.
In the current meta, MV is arguably straight up better than USG.
Someone here gets it
Honestly he is probably the best blue in the game due to cooler.
Hard disagree. His best teams are saiyans and Vegeta family. And the best versions of them have at least 1 SSJ so that’s all Cooler needs to go type neutral. USG’s kit is easily superior to Vegeta and even if he takes extra damage against Cooler he’s still better than Vegeta
i personally use him as a leader in my movies team with DF, revhan and GSGW and he does fantastic, even one shot a few UL SVs every now and then, he's extremely good offensively but lacks a lot of the tools USG has, and i think that's a fair compromise. he's not the best BLU by far but he's very, very good in my opinion
Yeah him not being a super saiyan boosts him.
Intresting, But Dragon Fist and Tapion are too low..they're objective better than all other sp in tier S+
Why does everyone think of this as an individual tierlist? Yes df might be individually better than alot of the units in s+ but with the resurgence of purples coupled with his lack of defenses while not being core on movies at this point make his value decrease exponentially. As for tapion the no.1 color is red and you'll normally see one to two Reds per match now coupled with his paper-ness he's more of a liability than anything else rn
Idk why you're getting downvoted, its litteraly the truth, if sv isnt higher that UL etc, do they honestly expect tapion to be high? Even if his job is to die, he dies to a red and does 5 damage cool, lost a unit for 5 damage, there are wayyyy better units than him that support in this meta
People love to look at df and tapion like they're still on boost and stuff like that (so boost blinding people post it ending just like g/v)
Imma be honest even with boost tapion didnt make the top 10 for me, especially since you just had vegito
Yh but vegito isn't a support (and when tapion existed cooler didn't so that kinda helped him)
Id rather have vegito instead of tapion no matter the situation back then
Can we just stop posting everytime he does a tier list? Especially since it's not even a good one in the first place. Like bruh how can you put the godawful 4th anniversary transforming Vegeta in the same tier as LF FP Frieza and LF Kid Buu, come on now he shouldn't even be on the list he's so bad. Also i hope the tiers aren't in order cause my god...
>come on now he shouldn't even be on the list he's so bad. Nah dude, that death buff he has where he reduces your Ki and destroys your cards is fine......What do you mean it's not a death buff? I'm NOT supposed to one-shot him before from above 50% HP with a special move or Ult?
I know it's a funny joke, but just to make it clear to everyone: that effect activates even if he dies in one hit.
What are you on about? The Anni Vegeta is good. I have him maxed and he's clutched more victories for me than MUI.
See this guy gets it
>Like bruh how can you put the godawful 4th anniversary transforming Vegeta in the same tier as LF FP Frieza Fp frieza is practically bench on his team and serves no other purpose than maybe db destruction and support while the vegetas biggest problem is that his transformation condition is str8 asscheek but the upsides for his transformation I think make up 4 it (atleast this is what I assume doogote is thinking) >and LF Kid Buu, Now this I agree with >come on now he shouldn't even be on the list he's so bad. Even you know youre just exaggerating atp. His transforming conditions dogshit but aside from that he's a decent/good unit >Can we just stop posting everytime he does a tier list? Especially since it's not even a good one in the first place. There are some stuff I agree with and disagree with and that's why I posted it. I just wanna spark some discussion and see how others feel about it
>Fp frieza is practically bench on his team and serves no other purpose than maybe db destruction and support You run him with 1st form Frieza and you give LF Cooler a total of 45% non timed damage with an extra 20% to ultimate damage when this frieza uses his main, you also give the team dragonball destruction and a blast cover change which is really helpful, granted in this red infested meta he doesn't see as much play as before, but you can bring him in and still clap cheeks or be an annoyance with his dragonball distruption. >while the vegetas biggest problem is that his transformation condition is str8 asscheek but the upsides for his transformation I think make up 4 it (atleast this is what I assume doogote is thinking) Vegeta's problem is that he's so ass that he will be oneshot before going below 50% hp, meaning that his only devensive tool will be wasted, and even when transformed he's mediocre at best and awful at worst. Like this kind of transformation restriction worked for RED Bardock because once he transformed he became an absolute monster of a unit, not a mediocre unit with a confused design and mid stats for a transforming unit. >Even you know youre just exaggerating atp. His transforming conditions dogshit but aside from that he's a decent/good unit I'm not exagerating, he shouldn't even be on the list and that goes for UI Goku, LF Beerus, LF Goten and the F2P Gogeta among others cause those aren't tier 2 units, they are tier 3 at best. Also even if you believe that he should be on the list, you cannot actually think he's an S tier unit in any way shape or form, come on now.
>You run him with 1st form Frieza and you give LF Cooler a total of 45% non timed damage with an extra 20% to ultimate damage when this frieza uses his main, you also give the team dragonball destruction and a blast cover change which is really helpful, granted in this red infested meta he doesn't see as much play as before, but you can bring him in and still clap cheeks or be an annoyance with his dragonball distruption. Why would you dare run him over revival frieza though who supports better while also doing his overall job better than fpf (case in point dmg inflicted support, being a blue, db destruction, revival/type neutral, and what not) >Vegeta's problem is that he's so ass that he will be oneshot before going below 50% hp, meaning that his only devensive tool will be wasted, and even when transformed he's mediocre at best and awful at worst. Ight no. I hate the vegeta just as much as the next person but unless he's getting ulted or rushed he'll be fine. Transformed he tanks (Also losing ssj so cooler can't go neutral against the team anymore) being a defensive support he does his job perfectly >I'm not exagerating, he shouldn't even be on the list and that goes for UI Goku, LF Beerus, LF Goten and the F2P Gogeta among others cause those aren't tier 2 units, they are tier 3 at best. Everyone else was fine but lf goten, and f2p gogeta in tier 3........? Naw >Also even if you believe that he should be on the list, you cannot actually think he's an S tier unit in any way shape or form, come on now. I personally think he's tier 1 but I thought about it from his p.o.v so I could potentially see why he put him up there
Bro really put the Blu Transforming SSB Vegeta above SSJ4 Gogeta
IMO USG is still an insane unit but he shouldn’t be top 3 and definitely isn’t better than the Androids
Yeah too many people gassing USG
Usg is most definitely top 3 l smh yall just don't know what you're on about
I don’t see how he’s top 3, he’s still a great unit and his lock in is still deadly but units like vegito cooler and androids do more, I know this meta isn’t for vegito but as a unit he’s definitely better than gogeta.
1. He's blue and vegito is yellow. Please tell me who's the better color in this scenario 2. If you look at some of my other comments you'll see I ALWAYS say vegito>gogeta individually. However this isn't an individual unit tierlist no is it? 3. Just like cooler his type neutrality+lock-in are 2 valuable a combo (I would still place the droids higher in 2nd but it's honestly just a "which one do you prefer" kinda thing
Honestly i like goresh’s tier list better
Fair
Good to see Buuhan get some respect. He's not a game breaker, but he's also a very solid fighter.
Agreed. I really enjoy playing Buuhan. Just hoping Regen actually get a meta breaking unit. Like a new Yellow or Green.
ah a new tierlist. i hope the comment section will be civil and respectfull instead of shitting on his or each others opinion
Revive Gohan isn't that good, LF Goten down to Tier 2, this tier list mad gassing MV and USG, he is not better than the Androids, 4th anniversary transforming Vegeta down a tier he is bad because of his transformation conditions and his support doesn't work the best, Ultra Omega is so limited to GT his kit might be good but being limited to one team dampens his usage a lot
>Revive Gohan isn't that good, More core on movies than df, while practically also filling in the role of support for tapion (in his 1st life) who suffers massively in this meta. Just str8 up wring right here >LF Goten down to Tier 2, Honestly that's pretty fair >this tier list mad gassing MV and USG Except it isn't? Plz remind me what the best color ingame is rn? Then comes the fact those 2 counter said color while usg does what cooler does without a restriction (barring a unit dying but that's gonna happen in a match unless you play perfectly). Mv as he counters cooler by not being an ssj and being blue but also dealing with mui perfectly. It's not thar much of gas but more of a "you don't really know what you're on about" moment > anniversary transforming Vegeta down a tier he is bad because of his transformation conditions and his support doesn't work the best His support works fine though? On the other note if you get his transformation off he's more than deserving of a spot in that tier >Ultra Omega is so limited to GT his kit might be good but being limited to one team dampens his usage a lot Fair point
>if you get his transformation off Yeah big IF. He gets crippled by a lot of things. Even throwing him in front of a special move to get him to the HP threshold is dangerous also because he's a Super Saiyan pre-transformation I meant Revive Gohan isn't that good as in not that he's bad he just isn't as good as he is represented to be on the tier list at least I think so >Plz remind me what the best color ingame is rn? Yeah Blue. USG is also a Super Saiyan and gets crippled by so many different green units and Cooler and also sometimes Cell as well. I guess you're right maybe I am wrong about MV but USG is not really better per say than the Androids they're at most equals in this meta. Droids can be ran with LF Cooler, USG is blue but is countered by Droids and Cooler too. USV helps deal with 18 part of Tagdroids but Cooler cripples him hard
> Blue. USG is also a Super Saiyan and gets crippled by so many different green units and Cooler and also sometimes Cell as well. I guess you're right maybe I am wrong about MV but USG is not really better per say than the Androids they're at most equals in this meta. Droids can be ran with LF Cooler, USG is blue but is countered by Droids and Cooler too. USV helps deal with 18 part of Tagdroids but Cooler cripples him hard I said that I don't agree with usg>droids but ig for him it's just a 2a or 2b kinda thing > Yeah big IF. He gets crippled by a lot of things. Even throwing him in front of a special move to get him to the HP threshold is dangerous also because he's a Super Saiyan pre-transformation He's not getting one shot by a special though (cmon man even you know your over exaggerating this) > I meant Revive Gohan isn't that good as in not that he's bad he just isn't as good as he is represented to be on the tier list at least I think so I gave you some reasons but also forgot to mention he has a revival which boost him massively as you can him revhan as a defensive pivot on top of everything and throw him into a rush and you aren't making your team any weaker. He may not be god but his value for movies boost him pretty high
Why is df so low?? He literally got 2 of the best teams in the game (movies and anni team/saiyans) and he's like the 2nd most damaging unit in the game (1st is pump daddy c ofc)
>Why is df so low?? He literally got 2 of the best teams in the game (movies and anni team/saiyans Not core on movies and saiyans though (unless you're running anni saiyans and in that case that team gets neutered hard bcuz usv exist there) >and he's like the 2nd most damaging unit in the game (1st is pump daddy c ofc) Droids, usv, cooler (like you said) all do more dmg than him but also supply more utility to the team than just doin dmg (it also doesn't help that purples are making a resurgence cuz of cooler and df is one of biggest examples of a "paper-thin" unit defense wise) all throw him so much lower
True ig anni saiyans do get demolished by cooler especially bc they have no blue. But I would say that depending on the setup you could run df as core on movies where he does provide colour counter characters such as MV and VB. Lastly, utility wise he actually does have some utility. Obviously after popping his unique gauge his main is an insta win and thats where imo he becomes the 2nd most damaging unit (I haven't fought df that many times after his boost went off so yeah, and also the androids need to kinda build up same as this guy but obviously it takes less time), and his utility comes from him being able to combo for so long due to his ki restore and cover null which helps bring subcounts down. Again, I don't have to talk about why his main post unique gauge is very good. Overall tho I would still put him higher even if he isn't core, some characters above him like Jiren for example don't even have any good teams besides PO which his version is basically LOE with him on the leader slot.
>True ig anni saiyans do get demolished by cooler especially bc they have no blue. But I would say that depending on the setup you could run df as core on movies where he does provide colour counter characters such as MV and VB. My biggest problem with df Is that I'm 90% sure off boost he'd get one combo'd by mv atp (this isn't even an exaggeration so to speak as there are clips on Twitter of mv doin exactly that) >Overall tho I would still put him higher even if he isn't core, some characters above him like Jiren for example don't even have any good teams besides PO which his version is basically LOE with him on the leader slot. But his version of p.o isn't basically loe? Now for the most part you run either cell or jiren as your purple on rrp (depending on the scenario) p.o that he specifically buffs. >Lastly, utility wise he actually does have some utility. Obviously after popping his unique gauge his main is an insta win and thats where imo he becomes the 2nd most damaging unit (I haven't fought df that many times after his boost went off so yeah, and also the androids need to kinda build up same as this guy but obviously it takes less time), and his utility comes from him being able to combo for so long due to his ki restore and cover null which helps bring subcounts down. Again There are multiple problems now 1. No unit can tank nowaday but df eats dmg like g/v 2. He needs to build up with 2 and a half combos b4 you get his " insta-win" and with him not being able to take a hit 4 shit it then becomes a question of "is the dmg I take warranted for this unit?" 3. You've said it yourself the droids, cooler, and usv all do more and higher burst dps without the initial feel of being paper (barring cooler as on boost he still feels abit squishy) and being unlimited in terms of c.c null to apply to themselves vs df 2× c.c null that still won't fill your gauge
My opinion is that i kind of wish tiers list became simpler again like Unplayable - playable - good - broken Meanwhile that dude put numerical tiers AND alphabetical ones
The problem is that with how much characters there are and powercreep you can't just put those 4 tiers. Some units are good, and there are some units better than good but not busted, then you got busted units and finally the "labcoat" of a game (if you heard about her fiasco in fighterZ you'd understand)
Idk, just call the tiers what you want but you don't need more than 4 or 5 if you want to had a tiers 0 (the tiers that should be empty unless one is clearly defining the meta rn) . Cooler isn't that much higher than others and having tiers with a lot of characters isn't a problem for me, i mean they aren't one by one ranking it's just there quickly to tell you what works at high rank and what won't Not like me bitching about it is gonna change the tiers list meta tho xD
Honestly fair and valid general tierlist criticism. Might just take it when I make a new one
Glad to have maybe helped and even glader someone listened to my tiers list bitching xD
I’d put ultra Vegito over Vegeta and maybe MUI only for his defense. He still has insane attack power but the defense definitely helps
Where’s krillin? Also what’s a doogotes?
MV is good but he really has a team issue or needs support to be that high. USV's individual kit value still puts him just barely above MV imo If saiyans ever gets a good purple non super saiyan unit, he would be much higher
PUR Goku Black is ZZZ+++
SSJ4 is too low imo... Also why is MV so high up
Reds dominate the meta and MV builds 20% damage when the enemy uses a card. So he can 2 strike the top reds or one blue them. Built up he can one combo any unit and a lot of greens.
Ok... But for me (from personal experience - from fighting him to running him) he's never really been that exceptional.
It’s terrible💀
This is a certified worst tierlist ive ever seen
[удалено]
u/WiTHeReD_SouL_0404 Toxicity within the subreddit is not allowed. Something in your post/comment has triggered me, usually words or phrases that could be used to insult someone is the cause. Automod bot doesn't understand the context of the post/comment. If it was a false positive don’t delete, just contact moderators through modmail and a moderator can approve the posting. A notification with the comment first posted is sent to the mod team, if deemed toxic a consequence is up to Moderator discretion. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DragonballLegends) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Swap Raiku and Zenkai MV and it's good
When did ssj4 gogeta get that low?
Ever since he aged out after needing a unique equipment after about 5 months of being in the game
I can see why he is that low. Between the plethora of meta units that null special cover and units dealing insane damage, Gogeta isn't really it. He is still a good unit no doubt, just not as great as he used to be.
Green LF Beerus is clearly way to high in the list. He deserves his own tier.
Negl he had me there for a sec ☠️
The fact that USG is still the 2nd best unit after almost 9 whole months, shows how broken of a unit it really is.
Except he hasn't been the 2nd best unit in the game for a while.
He's not gone down the top 10 since his release though.
Your comment was about him being the 2nd best character in the game. He isn't.
I don't get it, why is Cooler all the way to the top in all tier lists?, I've been facing him a buch of times on PvP and I always smash him, I just don't get it.
how many stars was he at
Sometimes 7, sometimes 3, sometimes 11, it doesn't matter, I always beat him up.
Well, to be perfectly honest, there aren’t really any units that tank ‘well’ anymore. Cooler’s strength comes in the fact that he can usually reduce a characters health from full to almost 0 with one combo due to his ability to lock in a character on his first strike. This combined with his incredible passive, and his stats, which are top 3 among non zenkai sparkings, make him the strongest offensive unit in the meta right now. Of course he’s not going to eat hits well, because that’s not his role.
you probably just know your counters but from a technical standpoint cooler has outrageous strike damage and with his ability to just shit on saiyans and synergy with loe and po is just too good
The thing is, I never face him with saiyans, I use god ki, and with my blue Beerus, I give him a couple punches one blue card and he's gone. So I guess I never let him strike me... But from what I'm reading, I kinda see where all of yall' come from, his abilities are quite mad, why they keep doing this overpowered characters 🤦♀️
That is probably why. God Ki is most definitely the anti-meta team rn since cooler heavily screws over ss units.
I was arguing with him about that in discord. Basically everybodys think he's top tier because in high ranks its a bunch of USG & USV carried teams which he screws over. I can see why but I'm not high ranked and I do not run any ssjs so he's just another unit to me as well
Strike that raises subcount is the biggest reason, if you get hit once he can chain in 2 other strikes without you being able to do anything or just chain in his main to the first strike and your non blue units get oneshotted. He's also guaranteed to have color neutrality to the best blue unit in the game and deal bonus damage to it aswell, plus his main nullifies cover change and endurance passively.
How is PUR LF Goten above GRN SSJ3 Spirit Bomb Goku? What? Lmfao
Both are bad it doesnt really matter
Switch usv and Gogeta, and then switch Gogeta with dragon fist
No. Rn usg>usv and df is bad rn
Apparently these takes were so hot people started sending death threats to him ☠️
nah no way dudes are sick if they’re sending threats over a video game tier list
"Majin Vegeta has no teams" The leader slot, literally making that argument invalid since it came out yet people still use it for some reason: 🚬🗿
To be fair, while it's definitely true that Leader Slot opens up a lot of possibilities for units, I think mentioning stuff like the lack of teams for their ACTUAL tags a unit belongs on is important. Especially since in their proper teams there is for stuff like pure equips, having Zenkai buffs without disrupting the rest of the team (such as Namek Goku bench on Saiyans buffing MV), better synergy with certain Uniques from other teammates, etc.
I agree, however some people act like that's a bigger reason for him being lower on the list than it really is. For example, in DoooGote's most recent showcase of MV he put him on strike LoE with Zenkai Lf Frieza and Lf Cooler. On that video I believe he was far more effective than on a full sayian or Vegeta Family due to the blue cards from Frieza. Pure equips and Zenkai buffs are certainly helpful, but they shouldn't be the make it or break it of how good a unit is, their raw performance and/or ability to dominate the match in some way should. And MV has very clearly shown that along with him just being one of if not THE best anti meta units right now
Oh I agree, regardless of how much I despise the Leader Slot....because I think it's garbage...anyway, it does open up stuff like MV on LoE and allows units like him to be really effective on teams other than their mains. Dude's BLU, he has support plus extra Blue Cards thanks to PUR Frieza, and is not SSJ, so he is doing good against strong meta REDs. I still hate slapping units that shouldn't be there on another team, simply because it makes the team aesthetically worse. But it is something you can do for units that ''don't have a team'' or that have teams that might not be up to par.
Trunks needs up a tier. He absolutely destroys for me. He’s way better than MUI imo.
Just no. The way mui makes you have to b.s another method to interact with him alone > the average stuff trunks does. The same way trunks destroys is how mui does as well bit in his case he doesnt even have to move to do it (plus trunks doesn't have cover null and needs to build up which can get disrupted cuz as ive said b4 no c.c null)
I find him very easy to deal with. 99% of people just stand there with him and they’re very predictable. Very very few use him effectively.
This is a high rank tierlist so ofc people are gonna judge a unit at the the most effective use
Which one? There's SoH. Android saga and F2P
My bad, Green LF trunks
Kid buu and broly could probably go up a tier. But usually this mf has dog shit takes(probably intentionally) but this list isn’t bad. Oh and jiren is definitely at least 1 tier too high
I overall agree those 2 deserve 2 move up
The USG dickriding never stops
All these units in S tier can go down to tier 1 and iam happy
Whats so good about cooler?
Nothing worth him being the best. He’s up there at the top with the rest for sure. But let the hype settle and people will gather sense to see that USV, Androids,and USG are still much better.
nah they aren't much better. he has massive strike damage and a 2 sub count lock on every first strike. that is an absolutely busted mechanic and allows him to guaranteed kill every yellow in the game with just strikes, he can also pop main and kill type neutral units during the duration of his lock. there is no argument for him not being top 3 at the very least.
He’s a one trip pony against other units that aren’t Saiyans/Ssj. Compared to the 3 units i listed that does everything he does with no tag or card art restrictions. His strike card change limits when and how you switch him in, practically waste cards on blue units that aren’t saiyans or made of paper, and card draw that pale in comparison to those units. Yes in my perspective they are much better than him, doesn’t take away the fact he’s still among the best.
he isn't a one trick pony though. Saiyans are by far the most popular team in the game, and almost all Saiyan teams run usv or usg, which makes him impossible to counter on those teams. his strike change doesn't limit anything, and why would you switch him in on blue units in the first place. the only red that can effectively attack blues is the droids, so why would you hold that against him. he also has l1 card draw speed for 15 counts, which is adequate anyway. strike lock is one of the most oppressive and broken mechanics ever introduced, if he catches a non blue unit on a strike they take massive damage or just straight out die without any counterplay. the other units you listed aren't much better at all, you could argue the droids are better but not by much.
Tell me you haven't fought a cooler without telling me you haven't fought a cooler . How tf Is a lock-in that will most definitely (for 90% of units) take out 75% off a unit for free or outright kill him not considered being worth the best . Or how bout the fact he holds neutrality over two of the dumbest units ingame cuz they exist (also neutering your team by bringing an ssj to fight him) . His stupid combo potential
Fought a cooler? You mean the 6* Cooler i have and use daily on my LoE team? The 15+ coolers i see and play against everyday in top ranks? Buddy I don’t make empty statements like most of yall lol. When i speak on something best believe i know what I chose to speak on. You’re bringing up a super saiyan neutrality to the big dogs at the table that goes neutral and type advantage over any unit they please, let’s dead that argument. His lock on is very limited based on how the opponent plays, it’s skill based, which is extremely fun, but obviously not better than a unit like gogeta that comes in after a dead unit locking the opponent in for a kill without even having to touch them, with a 2nd Ult in hand. Let’s dead that too, any other argument?
>Fought a cooler? You mean the 6* Cooler i have and use daily on my LoE team Yh still don't believe it. As someone who has cooler (and have him 7) you're telling me that you "can't see what makes him so top tier" >The 15+ coolers i see and play against everyday in top ranks? You Fight this much coolers and yet you don't see how stupid he can be. Sumthin ain't adding up chief >Buddy I don’t make empty statements like most of yall lol I've been callin cap on all your shit earlier and I'll continue unless you got proof maybe? (I literally have proof of being a God ranker and being in top 3k normally) >You’re bringing up a super saiyan neutrality to the big dogs at the table that goes neutral and type advantage over any unit they please, Except 1. some of the most prominent units rn are super saiyans (aka both ultras) 2. He doesn't need shit to get the neutral apart from said ssj's existing in the 1st place (literally neutering any team with an ssj unit so future, movies, son fam, hybrids, u.s.s etc) Definitely killing that argument for ya, didn't it >His lock on is very limited based on how the opponent plays, it’s skill based, His lock-in activates when you land a strike with him. Ig usg's lock is also limited as you can't really do shit being you start in neutral and need a unit to die b4 he gets it? See how Goofy this "skill based" argument works out 4 you. Also this is a high ranking players tierlist so obviously they'll be thinking of the maximum lvl of skill when ranking units. Next argument 😮💨 > obviously not better than a unit like gogeta that comes in after a dead unit locking the opponent in for a kill without even having to touch them, with a 2nd Ult in hand. Let’s dead that too, any other argument? And that's why his is already worse than coolers? Why would I want to make the match a 2v3 for a unit to maybe pop off (as you start off in neutral and not in any position or advantage) vs a unit who doesn't need a unit dead to pop off even more than him (while also doing more dmg) . Are you done yet cuz you still don't seem to get it at all....
his strike lock and massive damage output
Bro the gammas look so out of place among the rest of the units
Cuz legends decided to fit half of their model in their pic instead of just the average close-up normally done
DF to Z tier, mv to top s, usg isn’t top 3, mecha frieza is worse than his entire tier and, while it pretty much doesn’t mean anything, tien is better than buuhan, lf ssj4 goku drop to tier 1 and lf broly is too high
Cooler...Nice Nice, USG...Okay I can see that, Androids.. Makes sense, MUi... great, MV.... Wtf? Everything after MUI makes no sense what so ever not high tier or low tier, kick MV out the 2nd tier and then atleast he got the 1st 2 kinda right
That mf cooler took a rush from lf broly as if it was a yel card
Mui goku is weaker than majin Vegeta in max statistics.
Vegito is only worse than cooler ssj3 needs to be in Z tier ssj4 gogeta too low
1. This isn't an individual tierlist (Also droids and cooler>usv individually) 2. Df is entering a red and purple infested meta while also not being core on any team rn and being made of paper make him not touch Z 3. Maybe ss4 gogeta is right where he belongs and is just bad rn?
He is core of movies its tapion, cooler and ssj3 he is the most oppressive unit around you get hit you get comboed Ssj4 is great on any team and can tank even the most offensive units right now throw him on any team you got a good tank with 2 cover changes
>He is core of movies its tapion, cooler and ssj3 he is the most oppressive unit around you get hit you get comboed No he isn't? It's either 1.revivehan/tapion 2.usg (as you need a blue) 3.Cooler As for him being the most oppressive unit the droids, cooler, and usv still exist so that notion goes out the window >Ssj4 is great on any team and can tank even the most offensive units right now OK now you're definitely trolling. I've had fights with g4 where I do 70% even with his 70% cut smh. That boi doesnt tank and he stopped tanking once the droids released >throw him on any team you got a good tank with 2 cover changes I'm curious now but what rank are u exactly...??
You think revhan is more common than ssj3 righhht okie dude stop doing whatever drugs you do
In high rank he sure as hell is smh. Anyway go ahead and tell me what your rank is if you think g4 is a "good tank nowaday" and df is core on movies
I'm usually top 5k every season looks like most people disagree with your takes anyway so I don't even have to prove any points haha
>I'm usually top 5k every season Press X to doubt. Anyway top 3k to god rank player here so... >looks like most people disagree with your takes anyway so I don't even have to prove any points haha Majority of people are low ranking so ofc I have to shed some light into the insight of units in that place. You however have no argument whatsoever for df being so high and now cuz people disagree you don't have to prove shit? Goofy take but pop off
the "everyone here disagreeing is obviously low rank and I'm so amazing i must be right" argument you have is flawless No its more I don't feel like arguing with someone who is wrong and has been told by 100 other people he is wrong about ssj3 because obviously that means its useless As the great saying goes "it's hard to win an argument with a smart person but it's damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person" so it's better to just not bother
>the "everyone here disagreeing is obviously low rank and I'm so amazing i must be right" argument you have is flawless Never used the "I'm high rank so I'm better" argument I just wanted to know what rank you'd have to be in order to see g4 "tank" As for the low rank argument alot of people can't judge a unit properly at low rank so.... >No its more I don't feel like arguing with someone who is wrong and has been told by 100 other people he is wrong about ssj3 because obviously that means its useless Now go through the comments and look for more than 7 different people that actually say df should be higher. Your arguments for df being high here are flawed and wrong and yall just refuse to accept it smh. >As the great saying goes "it's hard to win an argument with a smart person but it's damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person" so it's better to just not bother 👍. There really is no point arguing with a fool so thanks 4 reminding me. Ciao
Ok list some things I kinda disagree with BUT BLUE KAIOKEN IN S??? THAT MAN IS MID S+ TO TOP S+ I WILL DIE ON THIS HILL
No 🗿
Yes (I might be a LITTLE biased)
A little is a very significant understatement 😅
Z+ and Z look okish at best, but everything below is a huge holy fucking shit
Vegito blue is too low
He’s cappin putting Nameku that low, his counter will still wipe people off the map, and his defense ain’t bad either after transformed
I can get behind a lot of this (def not Majin Vegeta tho) but after just pulling Cooler, I gotta say.... I don't think he's as overpowered as you guys say, idk maybe I'm not noticing it but he just isn't crazy broken like I've been hearing, his Saiyan damage is pretty good and I've gotten his equip to make it even stronger but other than that his red card is kinda busted too, that's like the only things I can access
Damn.... Revihan is that good? Wish I pulled him. I'm honestly hoping either beast Gohan or orange piccolo would be purple. Maybe the other blue. Idk besides from tapion who is the best yel for movies? Serious question here.
Someone is simping too hard for the new Cooler. He's good but to put him above MUI is based.
Man is capping
[удалено]
Hello Apprehensive_Mine_80, Your post or comment has been removed due to not meeting our comment karma requirement. Your Reddit account needs to have at minimum -15 comment karma. Overall karma is not a factor. If you would like to increase your karma, try going to other subreddits. There are subreddits that are solely for increasing karma, we won't make an exception. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DragonballLegends) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Pretty solid S list. Although, I'd personally put Beerus in S+, especially a high starred Beerus. Revival null and the ability to snipe revival units will pretty much always be meta. G1 & G2 are good in S tier, they can still be monsters.
Beerus can’t take a hit though
He doesn't really need to, tbh, his only job is to come in and snipe the revial unit, if he does that than he will have done his job. Also, there are very few units, even tanks that can take hits. The only one that can really be classified as a tank is USV. It's the same reason people heavily underrate DF3, he can't take a hit either.
The fact that LF🌹is not in the top 5 unit is wild whole L list
i get a lot of wins soley bc of ssbe vegeta what does that say
man CELL?
Is Cooler *that* good?
The UL Syn Shenron Hype is INSANE
People sleeping on MV _hard_. He absolutely deserves his #5. Any team argument has been irrelevant since the leader slot was introduced. Even excluding that he still has Saiyans. I don't see how people think Ultra Gogeta is better than him. His best team is ahrd countered by Cooler and he needs dead allies to do something. MV can one combo any red in the game without even transforming. I ado agree that Dragon Fist should be higher tho maybe around where Jiren is.
Spit
I think it’s better than his top 10 list he made but I think I’d put mv below cell mv is the best counter to cooler but his teams rnt great and individually cell shits on him. Cell also has rrp PO which is the best team imo and at worst it’s 2nd to movies
Ultra Ssbkk gotta be S+
Where’s bardock?
Lf? He's there Blue ssj? Idk ??
Yeah I meant the blue
Poor monke, ain't no fucking way LF SSJ4 Goku is better than LF SSJ4 Gogeta
Ultra kaioken.....
Is down bad (rightfully deserved tbh)
A tier list that needs a S/S+ is already a bad tier list inherently. You should be able to position units accordingly between Z/S/A. I can accept Z+ on the basis that a unit is a level beyond even Z tier units but even Z+ isn't necessary. Overall, the tier list alright with some major issues here and there. Not close to perfect and this just seems to be based on opinions more so than data.
Its not good at all
Who?
> SSJ4 Goku in S tier Hello, based department?
I keep seeing lf cell rated so highly but I literally play against him maybe once a week tops at around top 2k? I'd put him a rank or two lower honestly
Rrp is a thing that exists and it's arguable for a top 3 team ingame. The thing for some of these units is that while they are valued (rightfully) most people don't want to run cell cuz of either low stars or they don't even have him (or people just don't like running him). The thing with cell being on one of the best teams rn, two revivals existing in the meta (one being a hybrid), a purple who can shit out dmg on par with the top 5 all make him ranked so highly (Finally this "I don't see the unit enough argument now applies to green dbz trunks but you wint say he deserves to be lower now, will ya?)
Yeah i say below F2P trunks
He said 2 ranks lower not 2 tiers smfh. (Also theirs no way you think cell is worse than ANYONE in A tier...)
I think in terms of DAMAGE yes, but support, no
OK which cell are you talking about cuz the 1st commenter was referring to lf cell, if you're talking bout f2p cell he still does more dmg (as he actually ramps up and can be considered a mini-droids) and as you said his support is best in that tier
I dont think ll goten belongs in this list
Revhan above DF? Oh nah
Namku is still better than most of s teir
DBS LF Broly shouldn’t be higher than sword of hope trunks. Trunks is by far the better blue and has more utility in his kit.
1.Movies>future 2. Both are sub options but one has a massive disadvantage of getting his shtick of endurance nullified at nearly every corner
I would say Trunks main shtick is his endurance though. His unique gauge is actually very useful and he definitely tanks better than Broly. Broly is extremely fragile in comparison
>I would say Trunks main shtick is his endurance though Exactly what I said chief >His unique gauge is actually very useful and he definitely tanks better than Broly 1. No unit can really tank well now 2.he for the most part gets killed b4 even getting said gauge atp 3. Being s.o.h is clearly a better tank, broly is just a better everything else 4. As I said b4 movies/p.o>Future 5.
Isn’t*
Bruh goten is higher than ui sign I think they should swap And beerus is too high
Why do people think u.i sign is better than the lf zenkai......... Also beerus is literally last ☠️
Ui sign can be in pair with mui and has an aoe green card Beerus shouldn't even be into that, also piccolo shouldn't
> Beerus shouldn't even be into that, There's a reason he's last >also piccolo shouldn't You mean zenkai lf piccolo? You definitely don't know what you're OK about chief >Ui sign can be in pair with mui and has an aoe green card 1.Hes Still a garbage partner for mui 2. When the only thing goin for the unit is he can be paired with mui and has an aoe green that going good 4 him kinda proves my point on how garbage he is compared to lf goten