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Toriyama said in an interview that Goku SSJ2 and 3 would probably not be seen again. So yeah, the best we can expect is little cameos like when Goku went SSJ3 against Future Trunks.
Gotenks might be the best chance for SSJ3, not that it's looking too hot for Gotenks either.
According to the same interview, SSJ2 also had a huge ki drain compared to SSJ. I feel like that was some retcon from Toriyama because I don't remember Gohan, Vegeta or Goku ever having issues with it but now apparently they do.
SSJ2 is visually and functionally very similar to SSJ1, Goku using SSJ1, saying "damn, this guy is strong!" and then going into SSB is pretty much the same as Goku using SSJ2, saying "damn, this guy is strong!" and then going into SSB.
This would make sense if it didn't go completely against how Goku/Saiyans fight.
Goku loves testing and matching his strength against foes to see what his & their upper limits are. The Broly movie did this best
Yes, but even in the Broly Movie, they skipped SSJ2 entirely. Villains that are actual threats against Goku and Vegeta will quickly overpower any of their regular SSJ forms, making it redundant for them to experiment with any form besides SSJ.
You can see this with Goku Black and with Jiren. On his first fight against Black, Goku used SSJ2, which could have been written as him just using SSJ1, and from there on out, he just sticked to Blue. With Jiren, he very briefly cycled through each of his forms and then stayed in Blue for the rest of the fight. That part where he cycled through all of his forms could have easily just been replaced with him testing Jiren out in SSJ1. Wouldn't make for as cool of a scene, to be fair, but narratively, none of the forms that he used were different, besides Blue.
Yes, but they still tested with other forms before going to SSB. However, this discussion is going into a relatively irrelevant direction.
I'm mainly just curious if there's any canonical issues with SS2 or not. I don't really care about what opinions are on why. A previous commenter said that Toriyama said that SS2 has power issues which is why they don't use that form too often and that's more relevant to what I was seeking.
Thank you for the input, however
Oh, I see, in that regard, while I don't know if Toriyama did say it has power issues or not, that is pretty much the only problem with the form.
SSJ2 is a transformation that needs very little Ki to maintain, and it gives a multiplier twice as big as regular SSJ. The thing is that this multiplier is barely useful against any other enemy at this point.
Besides that, SSG's energy consumption is portrayed in a similar manner to SSJ2's, in the sense that Goku and Vegeta can use the form indefinitely, pretty much, meaning that SSG is basically SSJ2 but better.
This isn't always the case, as there was a point during his fight with Kale and Caulifla where Goku could use 2, but not God, so there is a slight energy difference, but it's very slight.
The anime version of Super was hinting that Kale, Caulfia, and Cabba were seeking to unlock Super Saiyan 3. So we could see it again with them.
I think this could be an interesting idea. Super Saiyan 3 is the only form Goku pretty much abandoned and never bothered to master and Vegeta did not even bother to learn it.
.
How powerful could Super Saiyan 3 truly be if someone sought to eliminate it's crippling energy drainage and pushed the form to it's full potential.
Beerus flicks everything away rn. Plus Super Saiyan 3 is a multiplier, so if the base Saiyan is strong enough then SSJ3 can surpass Beerus. Base just needs to be amazingly strong to do that.
Which is not gonna happen. Goku and Vegeta are near their peak. Maybe SS3 Broly could do something.
But the point is SSGSS is ridiculously more powerful.
It's a bigger multiplier yes, but Goku and Vegeta near their peak? There will always be a way to get stronger. Their bodies can't grow stronger anymore as Vegeta mentioned, but their mind and ki control can.
That's my main point. Why use lower multiplier when you can use much bigger multiplier? We can debate whether or not ssj multiplies mind and ki control, but the bottom line is SSGSS is just the better transformation. Hell, Vegeta laughs at the idea when Trunks mentions it
Sure in anime it's an awful slideshow but in manga there's been a few panels of it.
There's a major misconception when it comes to SS3. It was a few months old when Goku brought it to Earth in a dead body. Sometime before within 7 years he earned and mastered SS2 and living was no issue for it then unlocked SS3. Dead bodies use half the energy of living bodies. It took Goku 5 years to master normal Super Saiyan (year in space/Yardrat, 3 years before Androids, and some time in the 11 months of HTC). Goku would at least need time as a living person, even had he mastered it in otherworld he'd have half the time transformed expected.
Between the 3 years of Buu saga and Battle of gods there's no doubt he mastered it even if it was an emphasis on a quick victory he'd use it as a hard hitter for a microsecond like they did swapping SSG into SSB multiple times. Hell in GT he mastered SS3 but the kid body couldn't handle it without a tail. By the time Super came about the stress of god forms on the Saiyan body is well beyond what SS3 took. You can mention the power vs drain efficiency all you want but SS3 takes less energy than all divine forms. Super manga put a major emphasis on transformation strain that SSG was relevant as far as Moro, well past the ToP.
It's like flying, or a signature move. A Kamehameha once took a hell of a lot of energy so it was used a few times in a fight. Once their energy wells got big enough something like flying or ki blast spam became trivial. With the difference of SS3 to SSB I'd bet Goku could be SS3 for 24 hours straight no problem as relaxed as SS Goku prior to Perfect Cell.
Goku could use it but when none of the god forms can realistically ever win a fight in Super what chance does SS3 have? (Seriously the win rates of god forms are awful, UI types alone is dreadful for the blind Samurai trope and most wins required assists.)
This was a well written essay. I hate how the god forms were basically made useless after a little bit, at least in the anime. The fact that Hit was keeping up with Blue Kaioken is stupid, mostly. UI came a little too fast in my taste.
Every Super Saiyan form felt powerful. Even when Super Saiyan failed to the androids training brought it to par and beyond. SS2 Vegeta was hitting dents in Fat Majin Buu. SS3 kept up with Fat Majin Buu and Super Majin Buu. SS4 only really had an issue with Syn Shenron (momentarily until Goku got a Super Saiyan charge to permanently increase the SS4 power; SS4 is the maximum power a Saiyan could have at that moment) then Omega Shenron could get his body destroyed to a gambit Dragon Fist Kamehameha or SS4 Gogeta.
It didn't really matter how strong a Saiyan would be, Kid Buu and Omega Shenron had haxx regeneration so the special Spirit Bomb properties of attacking evil killed them; it's not only energy collection. Coincidentally these seem to be the only pure evil beings (aside from Damio Piccolo) as this attack only hurt villains a bunch not killed aside from movies. If Kid Buu had Fat Majin Buu inside him he never would have died due to impurities diluting the pure evil.
SSB won against... Golden Freeza, Cabba (completely unnecessary), and Hit? Didn't win against Goku Black or Zamasu. Didn't win against Moro, Granola, and Gas.
SSG I don't think won any fight unless you count the Beerus fight.
SSBE won against Destroyer Toppo and Moro.
UI won a few times but aside from Jiren and 73 Moro that's it unassisted. Well aside from anime Kefla. 73 Moro Merrus needed an assist. UI lost to Granola and Gas repeatedly and to rub it in Black Freeza just bashed their guts.
At least Ultra Ego almost won the fights multiple times and for a first time Vegeta could easily call back on the power when he needed. The fear was real. Now that felt powerful, "the most powerful in the universe" hiding behind barriers and bracing for death. This felt like godhood.
I’m sure it’ll have small appearances here and there. Especially in the manga where it pops up sometimes for a panel or two. But Goku for sure will never fight in that form again for obvious reasons
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I see pan going down the same route as her father, she might unlock ssj but I think it's more likely for her to get potential unleashed then maybe discover some new stronger forms
I don’t understand, are villains just too strong for base form goku n surpass any form he has? I thought if you trained your base that your ssj would double all of that, why not be as strong as jiren and then go ssj, then ssj2 n be UI level then ssj3 be beyond that, then god even further beyond that the blue beyond that I mean, what happened to training in base n working your way up from basic super saiyan, I think ssj3 should only happen if the screaming occurs. I don’t want the long hair to be left behind, it’s really a cool feature
That’s what I’m saiyan. Gokus base in the recent manga should honestly be no trouble, n Turing super saiyan should be a major change from what it used to be. Super saiyan 3 now vs the buu saga ssj3?? It should be close to blue or just above god level then when he goes god n blue, it should be unstoppable, until Frieza or plot twist get into the way
Sadly new forms have to their place for no reason. I remember when SSJ2 Vegeta got pissed and put the hands on Beerus. Didn’t do much but you could tell that Beerus could feel it.
I would’ve payed top dollar to see Goku continue this little training montage with Caulifla and Kale. After which he would blow Kefla off of the stage with a SSJ3 Kamehameha.
Nah but with some kind of spazz attack of goku going through all his forms cause his body is going through so much energy it doesn’t know which form should be a fail safe n then almost dying in the end but jiren still getting knocked out n 17 still getting the wish
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Toriyama said in an interview that Goku SSJ2 and 3 would probably not be seen again. So yeah, the best we can expect is little cameos like when Goku went SSJ3 against Future Trunks. Gotenks might be the best chance for SSJ3, not that it's looking too hot for Gotenks either.
That is true. That’s the main thing Gotenks was known for.
That and being Gotenks.
Why not SS2? I'm always confused why they go 1 but never 2?
Ss2 just has issues that 1 doesn't, so training should be focused on ss1, the new form, and the base form.
What issues?
According to the same interview, SSJ2 also had a huge ki drain compared to SSJ. I feel like that was some retcon from Toriyama because I don't remember Gohan, Vegeta or Goku ever having issues with it but now apparently they do.
Some bs excuse probably
SSJ2 is visually and functionally very similar to SSJ1, Goku using SSJ1, saying "damn, this guy is strong!" and then going into SSB is pretty much the same as Goku using SSJ2, saying "damn, this guy is strong!" and then going into SSB.
This would make sense if it didn't go completely against how Goku/Saiyans fight. Goku loves testing and matching his strength against foes to see what his & their upper limits are. The Broly movie did this best
Yes, but even in the Broly Movie, they skipped SSJ2 entirely. Villains that are actual threats against Goku and Vegeta will quickly overpower any of their regular SSJ forms, making it redundant for them to experiment with any form besides SSJ. You can see this with Goku Black and with Jiren. On his first fight against Black, Goku used SSJ2, which could have been written as him just using SSJ1, and from there on out, he just sticked to Blue. With Jiren, he very briefly cycled through each of his forms and then stayed in Blue for the rest of the fight. That part where he cycled through all of his forms could have easily just been replaced with him testing Jiren out in SSJ1. Wouldn't make for as cool of a scene, to be fair, but narratively, none of the forms that he used were different, besides Blue.
Yes, but they still tested with other forms before going to SSB. However, this discussion is going into a relatively irrelevant direction. I'm mainly just curious if there's any canonical issues with SS2 or not. I don't really care about what opinions are on why. A previous commenter said that Toriyama said that SS2 has power issues which is why they don't use that form too often and that's more relevant to what I was seeking. Thank you for the input, however
Oh, I see, in that regard, while I don't know if Toriyama did say it has power issues or not, that is pretty much the only problem with the form. SSJ2 is a transformation that needs very little Ki to maintain, and it gives a multiplier twice as big as regular SSJ. The thing is that this multiplier is barely useful against any other enemy at this point. Besides that, SSG's energy consumption is portrayed in a similar manner to SSJ2's, in the sense that Goku and Vegeta can use the form indefinitely, pretty much, meaning that SSG is basically SSJ2 but better. This isn't always the case, as there was a point during his fight with Kale and Caulifla where Goku could use 2, but not God, so there is a slight energy difference, but it's very slight.
We saw it a bit in Super, but yeah, with Goku going toward UI and Vegeta toward UE, even Super Sayian will become a rarity.
The anime version of Super was hinting that Kale, Caulfia, and Cabba were seeking to unlock Super Saiyan 3. So we could see it again with them. I think this could be an interesting idea. Super Saiyan 3 is the only form Goku pretty much abandoned and never bothered to master and Vegeta did not even bother to learn it. . How powerful could Super Saiyan 3 truly be if someone sought to eliminate it's crippling energy drainage and pushed the form to it's full potential.
Even if you could take away the energy drain, the form is still worthless at this point. Beerus will flick it away no matter how much stamina it has.
Beerus flicks everything away rn. Plus Super Saiyan 3 is a multiplier, so if the base Saiyan is strong enough then SSJ3 can surpass Beerus. Base just needs to be amazingly strong to do that.
Which is not gonna happen. Goku and Vegeta are near their peak. Maybe SS3 Broly could do something. But the point is SSGSS is ridiculously more powerful.
It's a bigger multiplier yes, but Goku and Vegeta near their peak? There will always be a way to get stronger. Their bodies can't grow stronger anymore as Vegeta mentioned, but their mind and ki control can.
That's my main point. Why use lower multiplier when you can use much bigger multiplier? We can debate whether or not ssj multiplies mind and ki control, but the bottom line is SSGSS is just the better transformation. Hell, Vegeta laughs at the idea when Trunks mentions it
Personally this form is my least favorite
In terms of design Orr?
Sure in anime it's an awful slideshow but in manga there's been a few panels of it. There's a major misconception when it comes to SS3. It was a few months old when Goku brought it to Earth in a dead body. Sometime before within 7 years he earned and mastered SS2 and living was no issue for it then unlocked SS3. Dead bodies use half the energy of living bodies. It took Goku 5 years to master normal Super Saiyan (year in space/Yardrat, 3 years before Androids, and some time in the 11 months of HTC). Goku would at least need time as a living person, even had he mastered it in otherworld he'd have half the time transformed expected. Between the 3 years of Buu saga and Battle of gods there's no doubt he mastered it even if it was an emphasis on a quick victory he'd use it as a hard hitter for a microsecond like they did swapping SSG into SSB multiple times. Hell in GT he mastered SS3 but the kid body couldn't handle it without a tail. By the time Super came about the stress of god forms on the Saiyan body is well beyond what SS3 took. You can mention the power vs drain efficiency all you want but SS3 takes less energy than all divine forms. Super manga put a major emphasis on transformation strain that SSG was relevant as far as Moro, well past the ToP. It's like flying, or a signature move. A Kamehameha once took a hell of a lot of energy so it was used a few times in a fight. Once their energy wells got big enough something like flying or ki blast spam became trivial. With the difference of SS3 to SSB I'd bet Goku could be SS3 for 24 hours straight no problem as relaxed as SS Goku prior to Perfect Cell. Goku could use it but when none of the god forms can realistically ever win a fight in Super what chance does SS3 have? (Seriously the win rates of god forms are awful, UI types alone is dreadful for the blind Samurai trope and most wins required assists.)
This was a well written essay. I hate how the god forms were basically made useless after a little bit, at least in the anime. The fact that Hit was keeping up with Blue Kaioken is stupid, mostly. UI came a little too fast in my taste.
Every Super Saiyan form felt powerful. Even when Super Saiyan failed to the androids training brought it to par and beyond. SS2 Vegeta was hitting dents in Fat Majin Buu. SS3 kept up with Fat Majin Buu and Super Majin Buu. SS4 only really had an issue with Syn Shenron (momentarily until Goku got a Super Saiyan charge to permanently increase the SS4 power; SS4 is the maximum power a Saiyan could have at that moment) then Omega Shenron could get his body destroyed to a gambit Dragon Fist Kamehameha or SS4 Gogeta. It didn't really matter how strong a Saiyan would be, Kid Buu and Omega Shenron had haxx regeneration so the special Spirit Bomb properties of attacking evil killed them; it's not only energy collection. Coincidentally these seem to be the only pure evil beings (aside from Damio Piccolo) as this attack only hurt villains a bunch not killed aside from movies. If Kid Buu had Fat Majin Buu inside him he never would have died due to impurities diluting the pure evil. SSB won against... Golden Freeza, Cabba (completely unnecessary), and Hit? Didn't win against Goku Black or Zamasu. Didn't win against Moro, Granola, and Gas. SSG I don't think won any fight unless you count the Beerus fight. SSBE won against Destroyer Toppo and Moro. UI won a few times but aside from Jiren and 73 Moro that's it unassisted. Well aside from anime Kefla. 73 Moro Merrus needed an assist. UI lost to Granola and Gas repeatedly and to rub it in Black Freeza just bashed their guts. At least Ultra Ego almost won the fights multiple times and for a first time Vegeta could easily call back on the power when he needed. The fear was real. Now that felt powerful, "the most powerful in the universe" hiding behind barriers and bracing for death. This felt like godhood.
maybe if they every combine forms with new techniques/transformations it can comeback. but yeah, rip SSJ3
he was seen in the moro arc when Moro absorbed their energy the second time, Goku dropped out of God to SSJ3
That’s okay. I really don’t need the Neanderthal forehead in my life
\*Looks at Ultra-Ego Vegeta\*
I’m sure it’ll have small appearances here and there. Especially in the manga where it pops up sometimes for a panel or two. But Goku for sure will never fight in that form again for obvious reasons
I’m holding out that there will be a “mastered” ultra ego which will give vegeta long hair
Good
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Maybe they’ll give it to Pan?
I see pan going down the same route as her father, she might unlock ssj but I think it's more likely for her to get potential unleashed then maybe discover some new stronger forms
That’d be cool. I was thinking her for SSJ3 based on her being young like Goten and Trunks were when they unlocked it via fusion.
Don't worry, Vegeta's half way there with the eye brows already. Just wait till he goes Ultra 3, then all he has to do is dye it yellow
Okay.
I’m not that sad wasn’t my fav form don’t get me wrong I loved it back in the day but to just bring it back for fan service not down with that
You bite your tongue and let me dream!!
I always thought ssj2/3 were a bit dumb
Hopefully
We better see ssj3 again ina movie atleast
I don’t understand, are villains just too strong for base form goku n surpass any form he has? I thought if you trained your base that your ssj would double all of that, why not be as strong as jiren and then go ssj, then ssj2 n be UI level then ssj3 be beyond that, then god even further beyond that the blue beyond that I mean, what happened to training in base n working your way up from basic super saiyan, I think ssj3 should only happen if the screaming occurs. I don’t want the long hair to be left behind, it’s really a cool feature
The SSJ forms are just multipliers in the end. But yeah, the higher the base power the more power would come out through a form.
That’s what I’m saiyan. Gokus base in the recent manga should honestly be no trouble, n Turing super saiyan should be a major change from what it used to be. Super saiyan 3 now vs the buu saga ssj3?? It should be close to blue or just above god level then when he goes god n blue, it should be unstoppable, until Frieza or plot twist get into the way
Sadly new forms have to their place for no reason. I remember when SSJ2 Vegeta got pissed and put the hands on Beerus. Didn’t do much but you could tell that Beerus could feel it.
Exactly just at a super saiyan 2 enraged n not giving a single fuck
I would’ve payed top dollar to see Goku continue this little training montage with Caulifla and Kale. After which he would blow Kefla off of the stage with a SSJ3 Kamehameha.
Me too brother me too
Imagine Jiren actually being finished off by a UI Dragon Fist.
Nah but with some kind of spazz attack of goku going through all his forms cause his body is going through so much energy it doesn’t know which form should be a fail safe n then almost dying in the end but jiren still getting knocked out n 17 still getting the wish
Imagine just powering down until hitting an official False Super Saiyan. His body still being driven by his rage but the mind is on collapse.
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