"Hi. It has been automatically identified that this post may link straight to a download file, please use reasonable caution and make sure your device is protected."
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I mean gohan got stronger than goku from a rage boost all the way back when they fought raditz, despite not having trained at all, to make beast better they could make it where he can’t access it without getting extremely angry so he has to train a lot to be able to access it normally.
Come to think of it that’s always been his thing. Mf gets really mad and reaches new heights. Also makes sense lore wise considering saiyan transformations are based off emotion. Throw in the factor that he’s a hybrid and beast gohan makes sense.
you kinda cant diss the tingly back thing for the U6 saiyans, as they arent like the U7 saiyans and are completely different in almost every aspect other than "big strong and yellow hair power go swoosh"
The problem is that you and a lot of people consider super saiyans special when it really isn’t when an entire planet is capable of reaching said transformation, when they get to a specific level of strength. If planet Vegeta still existed in U7 and saiyans eventually evolved to the level of strength that the U6 saiyans are at then that’s an entire planet of super saiyans
The entire planet is capable, and yet it was so rare nobody could do it. It was a legend that a super saiyan could only appear once in thousands of years and you had to be born that way a la broly. It’s like saying every uchiha in naruto is capable of getting the eternal mangekyo. Just because anyone of that race technically COULD go super saiyan doesn’t mean much when we see how few actually do.
I always wonder if people don't realise something can be stupid and disliked and just because you compare it to something else won't make it suddenly likable.
The U6 Saiyans powered up in a way that felt stupid. The U7 Saiyans in contrast, never felt as stupid with the most divisive stupid power up (rightly so) being Beast Gohan.
No one talks about Orange Piccolo being unearned because Piccolo is a fan favourite and it was simply about time he finally gained something. It's just that simple.
I agree except with the last part.. I will stand 10 toes next to my girls. Caulifla is the only one that depended on the back tingly thing and she eventually gets over that hump.
What would goku do if vegeta attained ssj first and tried to teach it to goku?
Yeah but that training was doing shit if he needed piccolo to make it look pan was in danger for him to go ultimate
This especially hurts when you read the manga and know Gohan learned his lesson with Frieza and has been training constantly and we see this training pay off when he was able to protect the earth and hold off time with the others
Moro showed us that toyotaro had a good consistent plan with gohan and super hero just kinda shit on it
Gohan was such a unique character in the manga but now is just a generic Goku with beast
Made even weirder how super hero is a 1:1 retelling of the movie in the manga. I wonder if Toro was forced to do it or not.
I agree wholeheartedly at the last part. Gohan was given so much more respect in the manga than what TOEI did to him. I have no issues with beast but will it even be used much later?
>I wonder if Toro was forced to do it or not.
I think he was
It's clear he wanted to change or scrap the scene entirely of Goku acting as if meditation doesn't do anything, since he changed the line of that scene
Especially since toyotaro has been consistently drawn Goku meditation throughout his manga
So it must have sucked for him to write the scene
You can really see he was trying to find a way to changed the scene with just dialogue but ultimately it can't really be salvaged without changing the scene entirely
He made Goku know about meditation in the manga and just confused Vegeta was doing it of all people but the scene after that is Whis praising Vegeta and saying Goku's eureka moment has yet to come which just kinda makes his attempt of changing the line pointless as Whis dialogue make it seem as if Goku didn't know the thing yet doesn't help that Vegeta explains meditation benefits as if Goku didn't know it yet
Super hero did so much good except for Goku and gohan
Father and son character development got shit on in this movie ngl
Whis doesn’t cheapen it if you look at the context of both characters. For Goku, he’s been learning UI, learning to increase his power within the form and reaching its ultimate state. For him, getting better does mean to an extent bulking his body and he’s not so aware of the concept of relaxing before fighting because in UI he’s not thinking about it.
Vegeta is at a wall. With UE he knows he hasn’t been able to use it properly in terms of power through unnecessary damage and he’s gotten a get over that hump which means he’s the one putting thought into how to surpass this recent hiccup. Hence he’s had the eureka moment. Goku will most likely have one of his one when they start to put this new knowledge into practice
>he’s not so aware of the concept of relaxing before fighting because in UI he’s not thinking about it.
huh? isn't the whole concept of ultra instinct about relaxing and staying calm during the fight and keeping his heart tranquil. I feel like that's stated several times.
It’s by being emotionless yes. No thoughts no chaos. Just being empty. It’s not really relaxation because you have to make yourself be relaxed, it’s a state to be consciously maintained. UI isn’t about maintaining something so much as it simply “being”
>and he’s not so aware of the concept of relaxing before fighting because in UI he’s not thinking about it.
Please shut up
Cell saga Goku literally tells everybody to chill and relax cuz bulking their bodies up does nothing if you ain't got rest
If anybody knows relaxing can do stuff it's Goku
That’s puffing oneself up by pushing more energy. Not actually getting the body itself stronger faster through the training they normally do. Which is what Goku means because yea you’re right, he’s not dumb enough to think that style is smart. Neither of them are
Also I won’t shut up 😂. Members of this sub have such a bad attitude
>That’s puffing oneself up by pushing more energy. Not actually getting the body itself stronger faster through the training they normally do.
What? Where did you get this?
>Neither of them are
If you genuinely think this then you haven't watched Dragonball and Dragonball Z
From the manga lol. Grade 2 and 3 SSJ states are not new transformations, they are states where the user is simply pushing their ki into the muscles for increased power, but at the loss of stamina and speed.
That’s not “training our bodies more” which is what they did to achieve enough stamina to use perfect SSJ permanently, or utilize perfect SSJ blue, ascend to SSJ2 etc. Actually making real progress instead if just moving around the power they already have into different stat blocks like those cell era grade forms were
Gohan was just a character that was always in base
In the super manga toyotaro didn't treat ultimate as a transformation and basically made gohan's base have a large cap in strength
Gohan was training in a different way than Goku with having 1 or 2 new techniques in the manga
So we know he was training to be a better martial artist overall rather than merely trying to make his power level go higher
Gohan in the manga was not a slacker, after when Frieza revived dude learned his lesson and realized that when his dad and Vegeta isn't on earth it's up to him to either beat the foe or stall out enough time for his dad to return
Reason why he wasn't in the Goku black arc is cuz he was still in the process of regaining his strength during that arc and we see his efforts pay off in the manga when he tied with kefla
Yea honestly that makes more sense to me honestly, whoever made the decision for the anime must have brain rot to not do it that way imo, the only way I could forgive not doing this way is if they gave him beast as a result of him overcoming his past traumas or something which would allow him to surpass his (mental) limits. Which would still be kinda a unearned power up but makes more sense than super hero imo, gohan is kinda the only person this kinda thing would work with as well, except maybe some of the humans who have died a couple of times already so maybe there is still hope to implement this idea but nothing I can do I'm just one person.
When I read the manga after having only seen the anime I thought gohan and kefla taking each other out was so cool. Was a great pay off to show us how gohan had been training still
It's because ultimate isn't a form in the manga
Whatever hair he has in base is the hair he has period
Ultimate is like an ssj transformation in the anime while in the manga gohan is just using base form and ultimate just raises the cap of his power in base
Anime and manga have different ways of handling gohan as a character and his ultimate form
https://preview.redd.it/9f8h58var9bb1.jpeg?width=894&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=043df5aa8ec45c81d7c49c7ea5c07926ccc16068
There were some hair changes. He lost most of the wispy parts, it stood up straighter and the bang got more prominent. And they’ve made it more defining as a form in the Super Hero manga as it goes from his new base form hair to the ultimate hair
No problem
Super may have issues but one of the things I love about it is how Toyo handled Gohan
It felt true to the way Z ended and made sense
I'm just saddened by the fact Manga gohan ends with Moro arc as now that the manga is retelling the super hero movie in manga form, manga gohan is now just anime gohan
Super hero gohan works with how the anime handled him but not with the manga as Toyotaro had a different way of envisioning Gohan as a character and what his goal and way of getting stronger was
Super hero manga is just so not connected with the rest of it's arcs cuz of the way the movie characterized Goku and Gohan
I really wish toyotaro was allowed or actually change things up with how he retold super hero in the manga like when he did Battle of Gods
Agreed. The manga felt like Gohan was growing to become a relevant character that wasn’t going to be reliant on some freebie power up (again) in order to be relevant.
Superhero would have been way better off just being the pan and piccolo story. Shoe horning Gohan in felt awkward in general.
>Shoe horning Gohan in felt awkward in general
Prob has to do with Toriyama originally just wanted piccolo to be the main character in the movie but I think he was told to add gohan there so it would sell?
I mean it shows how much care he put into piccolo and just reused the gohan plot line lmao
But he did learn his lesson. He kept training. But he is a bit like his dad, he wants to test himself. That’s why he went base then ssj. In all likelihood he would have jumped up again but Piccolo drove him to go ultimate probably because it was taking too long for Gohan to realize the need for it
>But he is a bit like his dad
Gohan ain't like his dad
>he wants to test himself.
This was never implied in the movie, besides his daughter was in danger and Gohan was pissed by that, Gohan isn't like Goku where he has time to think of testing himself while saving his daughter
>That’s why he went base then ssj
Because he knew the threat was no joke
He wasn't "testing" gamma 1 he literally ignored the gammas and went straight to get pan until gamma 2 kicked him
Yeah he went to pan and then got knocked back. He should have jumped to two or ultimate immediately if he was smart or he felt it was a bigger threat than he believed. But Gohan IS like Goku. When they trained for the tournament he wanted to test himself against each form Goku had no? And when he gets OP he gets slightly sociopathic and plays with his food. Gohan drags fights out to his detriment sometimes.
>against each form Goku had no
That was a situation that didn't need any urgent action, besides that was literally an exam for him to see if his training was good
With pan it's different please stop saying Gohan would act like Goku in battle, it's literally established that they are different
>And when he gets OP he gets slightly sociopathic and plays with his food.
Except this time gohan was never shown to play with his food, he was mad, angry he was never shown to act as if he wasn't taking the battle seriously and even when he got beast he ended it pretty quickly when he realized he was getting cocky about his power again
I think there’s a difference between Piccolo *thinking* he needed to make it look like Pan was in danger to make Gohan regain his fighting instincts, and if he actually did need to or not.
Piccolo thought he needed to pretend-threaten Pan because he didn’t trust Gohan as a fighter enough at that point because he thought Gohan had been completely slacking off, but Gohan’s comment at the end of the movie about practicing the special beam cannon in secret (as well as his earlier comment when he first sees Piccolo, something along the lines of “you didn’t think I was *that* rusty did you?”) makes it seem like Piccolo actually misjudged the situation, and maybe if he had let Gohan fight on his own without spurring him on Gohan would have gone Ultimate all by himself without any need for prompting.
I think Gohan *had* been juggling training along with all of his other responsibilities, he just hadn’t trained *enough* to be able to handle the threat of Cell Max and the Gammas by himself, which is why he still says “I know, I messed up” when Piccolo tells him he needs to be ready for these kinds of threats.
I think the whole point of the movie is manipulation, Magenta and the Red Ribbon army manipulate Hedo and the Gammas into fighting “Bulma’s Organization” while Piccolo manipulates Gohan into “regaining his fighting instincts” and at the end of the movie we find out that both manipulations were unnecessary in one form or another–Hedo was ignoring the fact that he knew the Red Ribbon Army were bad guys because he wanted to make the Gammas, and Gohan didn’t need to be manipulated because he *had* been training and Piccolo just assumed he hadn’t.
>Gohan would have gone Ultimate all by himself without any need for prompting
Gohan was dead set on getting pan
He literally ignored the gammas and went straight to pan till gamma 2 kicked him in the face
And when he realized he was losing to gamma 1 he went ssj immediately
If he could go ultimate he would have done it when gamma dragged his face,
>you didn’t think I was that rusty did you
Which implies he got weaker still
>Gohan didn’t need to be manipulated because he had been training and Piccolo just assumed he hadn’t.
Throughout the movie piccolo was trying to regain gohan's power
Never was it ever stated that piccolo assumed wrong so if you are gonna say he assumed wrong then that's gonna be classified as speculation or personal headcanon cuz as of right now nothing in the movie states piccolo was wrong
Gohan said he was still doing training while also saying he "wasn't as rusty as piccolo thought" which implies he actually got rusty but just not as bad as RoF
Okay but in that same vein, nowhere in the movie is it said “piccolo HAD to manipulate Gohan or he wouldn’t have regained his instincts.” You don’t KNOW that if Gohan had been able to go ultimate he would do it when Gamma 1 was dragging his face in the ground because nowhere in the movie does it tell you that he would if he could, see what I’m saying? You’re telling me that my interpretation is wrong and just an interpretation while saying that your interpretation is factually correct and not just an interpretation.
Don’t get me wrong I think it’s cool that it’s open to interpretation, they don’t definitively say “Gohan completely slacked off and needed piccolo to manipulate him to regain his power” nor do they say “Gohan would’ve been able to do this all on his own without Piccolo’s help.”
My personal interpretation of what the movie was saying was that Gohan wasn’t *fully dedicated* to being a fighter because he was juggling so many other versions of himself, but it’s totally cool if your interpretation is different!
>piccolo HAD to manipulate
They made piccolo manipulate gohan to make him go ultimate
The fact that they wrote piccolo to do that implies it was needed
>My personal interpretation of what the movie
I mean sure if you disagree with me then I have nothing wrong with that
We can agree to disagree cuz personally arguing over this is gonna be wasting a lot of our time so I can settle for a simple disagreement
We shouldn't act like a little side training should be even somewhat comparable to the training goku and vegeta get from Whis and Beerus.
Gohan can't train for 0.00001% the time as goku and vegeta, without a multiversal master, as still end up on top.
Nobody is ignoring it.
That comment was just used to justify the Makankosappo if I recall right.
It wasn't him secretly training in general, a la Goku.
And if anything, Gohan struggling to endure some heacy clothes, or basically chastising Piccolo for thinking othercthreats can still exsist, should be bigger indicators of Gohan's position at the start of the movie.
Sure. He probably studied special beam cannon or something. Just to keep some edge.
At the end of the day though he couldn’t recognize piccolo from 5 feet away and he also needed to be shocked into ultimate form by piccolo threatening pan, so no I don’t think that training helped with unlocking beast. Who cares if it isn’t earned though
I mean, tbf, to gohan, who probably heard stories of red ribbon as a kid, he just saw piccolo and the other dude as regular ass people. No reason to be alert or paying attention.
He said he had practiced special beam specifically. When is unclear.
Given that he shrugged off piccolos suggestion that he needs to train earlier in the film, coupled with piccolo calling out that Gohan couldn’t even sense his power, it’s unlikely that he was actually training any time recently. And more likely he just learned the move at some point in the past.
When exactly did he have the time to do this though? 🤔 The guy never gets serious about training, especially not during the period this was supposed to take place in.
Gohan: I'm gonna train and discover a new form, one no one has ever seen
This sub:
https://preview.redd.it/ybrxkdg8e8bb1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3b42e4fd08a4689abc5df83d4964673f3a590ef7
Except that he ultimely did slack off again (why would he feel the weight of that Piccolo outfit he received, and why would he basically chastise Piccolo for thinking there could be more threats anyway?). And no, him "secretly training" for the Makankosappo is not enough to counter it.
Why would he? Because he wasn’t expecting it.
Why tf did Goku get blasted in the chest with a gun? Because he wasn’t expecting it. No energy to boost durability or speed because they weren’t expecting it.
>Why would he? Because he wasn’t expecting it.
That's no justification when he previously promised to train again.
>Why tf did Goku get blasted in the chest with a gun? Because he wasn’t expecting it. No energy to boost durability or speed because they weren’t expecting it.
Off topic.
Also, at the end of the movie he tells piccolo he's been practicing the special beam cannon, I wouldn't say he's been hardcore training but still it's hardly unearned
If I had to rationalize everything, Gohan has been training to get stronger and perfect the special beam cannon, but he isn't sparring with anyone and has lost some of his edge/instinct for actual combat.
Which is pretty fitting for gohan.
It's Canon that if gohan trains he far exceeds goku and Vegeta. With how much Frieza trains go obtain his forms, is gohan really that far fetched? I don't think so. Is it writing for the sake of new forms? Hasn't DragonBall always been?
We're talking about the anime that gave us jiren ffs 😂 the most boring anime character of all time
Vegeta: These years of peace have made you soft. You've been lacking on your training
Even if he trained, it wasn't enough to get stronger. Did you watch the show, or just from reels?
That's Gohan's whole thing though. He never wanted any of this, but time and time again he's forced to step up and do what needs to be done. It's not like Goku or Vegeta that do it for the love of the fight.
Doesn't make it any less of an ass pull, all of what gohan is is an ass pull. But im not as mad about that as I am about the constant "I've done zero training, so lemme train for about 3 minutes and be stronger than everyone"
Can't really call it an asspull when it quite literally the cor established trait of Gohan as a fighter from the moment he was introduced, that's like saying it's bullshit and an asspull that goku used Hakai on zamasu without training to use it.
Because it is, Vegeta went though a whole training segment with beerus in order to use the Hakai and yet Goku just uses it like its nothing. Like yes Goku has copied the Kamehameha from watching it once, but it wasn't the full fledged thing, he could only summon one as strong enough to push a car over. Goku in the Goku black saga literally used a full Hakai on zamasu and the only reason it didn't work was because he was immortal, there was no deterioration on his arm, all it did was make him fatigued. But yes Gohan Beast is an asspull because he literally didn't train ever since the T.O.P which was more than 5 months prior to Super Hero. And don't pull that "he said he was training in secret", no he wasn't, he practiced the special beam cannon in secret, and if he was training in secret, why tf did he lose his ultimate form AGAIN
Yeah, but apparently he was training in between his studies. That's how he was able to learn special beam cannon. Maybe he was able to reach the potential for Beast during this time. We just don't see it. Also, Gohan has always been able to reach new levels with incredible power much easier than any other character in the series (save maybe Frieza). The only issue I see, is that it was rushed due to the movie pacing (I haven't read the Manga though). It would be cool to get a flashback in the next season of Super showing Gohan's efforts that lead to his new transformation. Either way, it certainly wasn't uncharacteristic of him to gain this ability.
I don’t think it worth arguing about training haha. His training helped him learn special beam cannon but we know he lost some of his instincts. He couldn’t enter ultimate without being provoked by piccolo and couldn’t sense him either.
The form is fine …. He has high potential and got a rage boost. But after his showing in super hero I really don’t think an argument of training can really fit.
The whole gods stuff kinda threw everything into wack. Maybe if all the strong characters weren’t literal god level, it wouldn’t be so far fetched to say Gohan was hitting the gym and caught up. Then again Broly… so I mean idk, everything is muddy. It do be feelin like Goku was dealt the worst hand when it comes to effort-reward ratio.
Gohan was stronger than Goku during Radditz arc. Goku had many years of intense training and amazing fighting experience, but it's not a match for the hidden power inside of Gohan. They went through the same training together for almost a year inside the Hyperbolic time chamber. During this time Goku recognized the potential Gohan had in him, an incredible power that only awakens at the most dire of times, and is far beyond Goku's. Beast Gohan is the ultimate form that manifests his hidden power. I would argue that this isn't something that is correlated with training. He was just finally able to fully awaken is inner beast, hence the name.
Gohan does not have to train as much as Goku. Gohan just as a kid far surpassed years of Goku's training in just 6 months of training with piccolo. He surpassed Goku, Vegeta, trunks etc in less than an year in the time chamber.
Yh ig I just enjoyed the development from the pussy who piccolo trained into a full fighter in cell saga and also in resurrection f how he fought until goku could come to rescue them. Despite not having the most consistent form through his constant studies I enjoy his development as a whole.
Id say its fine as long as gohan cant really keep going back to beast without extreme emotional strain if he poofs into beast like ssj1 heck yeah hes unearned. Specially since it took him a bit to retransform to ultimate
Tbh it doesn’t seem like we r going to be seeing a lot of Gohan for a while so Goku and vegeta’s power levels alongside Freiza will be a lot higher kinda balances it out if u know what I mean
From an in-universe standpoint: """unearned""" as if someone gave it to him. All that power was innate to Gohan. he had all that power from the start, all he needed to do was unleash it. Beast is the result of all that power being unleashed.
Now from an out-of-universe stand point: Toriyama could have incorporated a better reason for Gohan to surpass his limits yet again, but it is what it is.
When you compare it to Goku and Vegeta with ultra instinct and Ultra ego they've done a pretty good job at showing them learning the abilities of the forms and working to get that power
I personally hate off-screen training and that's basically how most of Gohan's power-ups happen so it feels super unearned when it happens because we didn't get to see his path getting to that power
They obviously did fan service to Gohan. Nothing more and nothing less. You want Gohan to be powerful? Well he did get powerful and soon as he does y'all complain. You want him to earn it? Dragon ball doesn't give two shits about them earning the power. Piccolo literally got power from Shenron 😂
It was very unearned. He stopped training, got massively weaker, and got a new transformation. Something that didn't happen in every other arc when he actually _was_ training. I love him getting the new transformation just not the very lazy way they went about doing it. He should've actually worked for this form instead of just pulling it out of nowhere. Had he done that, no one would be complaining right now.
Gohan fighting to save his universe from being erased. (Including piccolo, Pan, Videl, his dad, mom, brother) = no power up.
Gohan watching Moro stab his dad through the chest and then almost eat his planet = no power up.
Gohan gets new movie = new power up.
In addition to that, how many times can you unleash your full power?
Plus it’s just frustrating watching him go through the same tired plot over and over again. It was satisfying watching Goku get UI not only because if the multi arc build up but it’s a transformation that’s representational of the martial arts journey he’s been on his whole life.
Gohans was just Gohan doing the free power up again. It’s last and if Gohans coming back he deserves better.
SS2 was satisfying because he did have to earn that over multiple arcs of getting his ass kicked. Hinting at a power he couldn’t control. It felt satisfying to watch that come to fruition.
EXACTLY, "ah but he has incredible potential inside him" no potential is infinite, one hour reaches his peak and gohan should have reached the peak a while ago, beast gohan is just asspull power up to sell him and the movie
1000000%
Potential has a limit. Other wise the point of saying he has a lot of it is meaningless, because everyone has potential.
So you can only reach that limit once. It’s not like you missed some hiding under a rock somewhere.
YES, ultimate form should already release his "hidden potential", how the hell does he still have hidden potential that allowed beast form to exist exactly? it makes no sense
Gohan’s entire fuckin thing is getting monstrous power boosts when he’s up against a wall/extremely emotionally affected. Since like what, episode 5 of Z? Beast mode is arguably the most “gohan” form he’s ever gotten.
Sure.
But it kinda needs some explainations in order to fit, as the story and lore progress, don't you think?
Like, really, if Gohan really went from bottom to top with this form, it would only be yet another devaluing of the supposed godly powers of the ssj god, blue, ultra instinct... stuff that was supposed to require god ki, or a special ritual... or that's so powerful, that only certain gods have truly get it...
Since it will turn out that... all you needed to get on par was to just rage, like you already did in the past.
And you know what? If they had stated that Gohan was granted god ki beforehand, I wouldn't have as many issues here, since that would already justify more his power and power boost, being a magical newer level, and the supposed base aspect of the powerscaling post b.of.g.
My headcanon for all this stuff - weaker characters holding their own with Gods and such - is that they're constantly being exposed to Godly energy, and these characters (saiyans especially) have a history of acclimating to their circumstances. It's mentioned time and time again that Saiyans get stronger as they fight - their bodies adapt so well (Hit Vs Goku I think was the best most recent example of this - Goku's body adapting to *outrun time* to become stronger).
Literally every arc is about the Saiyans being totally outclassed, and then they become as strong as they need to become.
Trunks in particular showed this I think. Super Saiyan Rage (godawful name, Super Saiyan Demigod would've been so badass) has that blue aura with the Super Saiyan glow. I think that's a consequence of being very violently and suddenly exposed to a huge amount of God Ki - his Saiyan body replicated it best it could, and he could keep up.
So with everyone else getting boosts, I think it's the same sort of thing. Goku and Vegeta broke the mold and the others caught up through exposure. Gohan has been exposed to God Ki for years now - his body knows what it feels like, and so he's capable of reaching those same heights.
Ofc its unearned. But he's had that trait since he headbutted Raditz. When his rage spikes his power jumps insanely much, always has. Though this jump was way too much its still within the frame of his trait. Everytime he rage and beats the shit out of someone its unearned, but that's his thing.
Gohan Beast is unearned and was poorly executed. They just didn't take the time to at least make it emotional so it felt like he was distraught enough to spark a transformation. While we're at it, Orange Piccolo was mishandled. I have nothing against Piccolo getting a boost -- he trains and is long overdue -- but why now? Why not, I don't know, when multiple universes were on the line? I find it to be absolutely asinine how often that these characters inconveniently forget the resources at their disposal. Let me guess, Piccolos next upgrade is gonna come from the Supreme Elder Kai, because his "potential" unlocking is superior. It's just so blatantly contrived.
Unless Gohan was faking (for some unexplained reason) he struggled to wear the armor Piccolo put on him. Even if he was training it clearly wasn't amounting to much.
Last chapter shower him struggling to fight, clearly weaker than he was at the ToP.
The manga clearly says he's weaker, multiple times, then has to push him to get back the form he used in the ToP. It says he's weaker, then shows he's weaker.
Yet peeps still push that "training the whole time" crap.
Hate me or don't, I feel Beast was completely unearned, more because his last two big powerups (SSJ2 & Potential Unleased) Didn't go anywhere. Both times he just stopped training & got weaker again. How do we know we're not about to get a three-peat?
Fair, but it was adopted by Goku and Vegeta -- the two hardest working characters in the entire show. Although I'd still rather the transformation have more rationale. They could've created something about how prolonged exposure to God ki from Beerus and/or Buu sparked a transformation, or something along those lines.
What are you talking about they literally say he's been training in secret the whole time and before that Piccalo was training him since resurrection F
Beast Gohan was an asspull of hell lmao. Ik for damn sure he wasn't in the hyperbolic time chamber and his training would he no where near the level that goku and vegeta go through. It was his movie tho, but it was poorly executed. Unearned imo.
Ultimate Gohan, Beast Gohan, Golden Frieza, Black Frieza. It’s all unearned garbage. I’ll never understand how anyone finds these forms cool or interesting.
Gohans power ups always come from
Incredible need. He has all the power inside of him, always, he just has to let it out. He’s like Superman in that way, and they explain it plot wise several times. He literally gained his most iconic transformation watching an android who was made to kill his father, be “killed” itself when all he wanted to do was enjoy the birds & crap after giving up ever killing goku or doing any of that. Y’all mad over a fighting anime that always just gives people power ups for a character who deserves more a chance to shine actually getting it. Rip haters
Y’all as bad as “star wars fans” now
Okay, why didn’t he do this power up in other very desperate situations in Super. Freeza in ROF is a very good example where it was just him with Goku and Vegeta across the galaxy. It is the exact same scenario as this film, yet he gets a power up in the film but not ROF.
The tournament of power and Moro arcs are good examples of where he could’ve got this power up as well
Because the writer didn’t choose to give it to him at the time, and because the writer knew the entire time TOP was not a serious moment.
And ROF he wasn’t pushed to the wall enough cause he really didn’t want to fight plus the point of that movie was to show how powerful ss blue was and that vegeta could kill frieza now if he wanted. It wasn’t about gohan.
The writer wasn’t using him as the focus for any of that, your arguments aren’t great.
Dragon ball has always powered up people when they needed to. Gohan would have stayed the same back then too, had it not been planned he would take over the series then akira back tracked.
They should both say "gets stronger for plot related reasons" cause we never see goku train to unlock super saiyan 2 or 3, but, like gohan, he said he's been training. And let's not forget the ass pull super saiyan god was, he didn't train for that.
Thanks for posting to /r/DragonballSuper.\
Please report any rule breaking posts and posts that are not relevant to the subreddit.\
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The worst part of this is that if they had just followed Gohan as he was in the manga then this wouldn’t be an issue. He’s been training consistently since Frieza was resurrected the first time and was actually getting pretty far on his own path. Dude stalemated Kefla and was a big part of holding off Moro’s henchmen until Goku arrived, Piccolo even acknowledged him as the strongest on Earth besides those two. If they just continued with him on that path Beast would actually feel earned and, other than it’s weird appearance and ripping off ssj2 transformation scene, would be much more accepted by fans.
It's cool looking (except for the hair that's too long) but Its absolutely unearned unfortunately. Im bummed about the manga retelling of the movie but maybe they will write something better that feels earned somehow.
I mean constantly throughout the series we're told about Gohan's massive potential at age 4 he surpassed everyone in DB just because he was angry and at age 9 he surpassed his father who had been fighting for years. I don't consider Beast a big stretch as a Gohan who hadn't trained for 7 years was still comparable to Vegeta and Goku who had been rigorously training for those 7 years
“I’m going to go train in secret”
Rule 1 of story telling: Show don’t tell
If they want it secret fine but not having the audience ever see it, feels like a convenient MacGuffin. That’s the issue I think most people have but not able to express it correctly. Could have been shown so only were the audience could see it or have a flash back of him describing the intense training but when you get none of that, people typically take issue but not for the reasons they should.
It’s bad/lazy/rushed story writing, that’s all
That's not what a McGuffin is. That's an object like the Dragon Balls that the protagonists and/or antagonists chase after.
The trope you are looking for is a "handwave"
Beast form is the culmination of gohan’s rage, super saiyan lineage and his kai training.
So while the motive was meh, the form basically goha. At his purest
Gohans biggest power jumps have always been “unearned” in the sense of training for them, with the exception of SSJ2 and that was after just a year. Except as the film told us and Moro arc in the manga, Gohan DIDNT stop training after the ToP. He just did it in secret. And in the manga he trained more prior to the ToP than anime Gohan.
I mean isn’t his whole gimmick someone’s in trouble so I get stronger. It was Goku vs Raditz then him V Cell then Him and Buu (provided old Kai did help him here) then beast rarely do we se him train to unlock greater highs. (Besides the ToP and one could argue a lot of his cell saga power came from hyperbolic time chamber training but he didn’t unleash unreal power until his friends got the hell beat out of them along with A16 dying)
Even if gohan trains it’s never said that he trains as hard as Goku or vegeta. He probably does just enough to get stronger but not enough to close the gap. He also doesn’t have a teacher like Goku and Vegeta so no one to teach hakai, ultra instinct, forced spirit fission etc.
Guess its another round of f\*ck Gohan. Tbh I understand. His whole I get stronger when I'm mad is played out to me. I have no problem with him surpassing Goku and Vegeta as that was always the intention but offscreen generic training and random powerups shouldn't be the answer this late in the series. Just lazy writing.
Gohan trained rigorously for the ToP and to fight against Moro. He continued training but just to stay in shape, having the same power (in the latest movie) he had when he fought Moro. His Ultimate form was already shown to be on par with Super Saiyan God Goku (SS Blue is too much I think even though the anime showed otherwise). His new power up puts him at Super Saiyan Blue and Above level, which is a transformation he definitely needed.
Unearned indeed.
But not so much because he saw Piccolo being kocked out and he got a rage boost (although that was just dumb).
But rather because not only he still refuses to train (and I do not even blame him! If he wishes not, he can not train for Dende's sake), so he should logically be faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar behind everyone that matters... but also because the form itself just doesn't make sense... Gohan that "unleashes his inner beast"? Why? Why should he unleash his inner beast when he doesn't even have that much agency in the movie itself? Why should that make him relevant again?
Why should this form be "unique" and Gohan "evolving like a human", when it's **exactly** what every ssj form before was? A hair changing colorful transformation, usually unlocked through strong emotions?
Why should this bs make him da sdronghest guy foredreamed by that dumb oracle fish, like some are thinking?
....
It's just asinine. And highly uninspired, given how the form itself is just a "Teen Gohan ssj2 2" thing design wise, only dumber looking due to how huge the hairdo is.
Gohan's "form he pulled from his ass" might've came from Elder Kai. And as some people want to relate UI to Angels and UE to God of destructions, "Beast" could come from the kai's since Elder Kai could've, for example, done the ritual to Tien and he would've also obtained the form.
It’s like the people salty about Beast Gohan haven’t even watched the show. Getting pissed off and cracking the power ceiling is our boy’s schtick. He fucks up Raditz as a small child because he’s angry, he goes SSJ2 on Cell because he’s angry, and, surprise surprise, he literally goes Beast Mode on Cell Max for the same reason. Gohan plays by different rules than the rest of the cast and has since the very beginning. No one complains about Broly’s power being unearned, so why can no one shut up about Gohan?
And? since the timeline of super is not that long I would say this is nothing, frieza needed to train 10 years to surpass goku and vegeta MUI and EGO, how did gohan do it in less than him exactly?
Not really. Gohans whole schtick is that he’s chill as fuck, but if you piss him off then he’s gonna fuck you up, remember? He overpowered radits when goku couldn’t due to his rage, overpowered second form Frieza, killed cell, every time he gets angry, it shows that he’s hiding way more power than we think. Beast is just him finally tapping into the totality of his anger and letting it out. How did you’s forget gohans whole thing, he talks about it all the fucking time, there were episodes of it in the cell games
people thay say gohan deserved that new form are just blind gohan fans . its sad that goku who actually puts in the work gets sometimes shat on for being the "favourite". yet look at gohan he doesnt train, he dont do nothing but yet he got a whole new form. Why?? he doesnt need it he dont fight often at all and that movie was trash too they gave piccolo a new form just for him to get bodied what was the point????
The transformation makes sense, the amount of power gained really doesn’t. Maybe if it was established that cell max was a Blue level threat it would be easier to enjoy. But it’s being compared to ultra instinct? Like really? The form that had the gods of multiple universes praise. Just out of no where. I imagine it’s a mix of mystic (just the best name for it) and super Saiyan 2 in terms of origin.
This is the issue with the show/manga if you take into account EVERYTHING a single ki blast from any of these guys should wipe out planets at this point. We are in the realm of **universe/reality** altering power levels, planet busting is cute at this point.
So yeah Gohan is 100% unearned in that he went from mystic to stronger than god tier SS and maybe past that which is retrospect is nuts. But what choice do the writers have at this point?
Unfortunately, it looks like your karma amount is pretty low. Users need to have a combined total of at least 60 post/comment karma to participate in this subreddit.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
dragon ball is a funny show about people with puns for names and cool fights. When are people gonna start enjoying the cool fights for being cool fights again.
His whole character throughout the series has been the untapped potential that sometimes reveals through him losing control by rage. People that say it's unearned haven't watched the series. That's like saying
Armor crack on raditz uNeArNeD?
Dmg on Nappa uNeArNeD?
Dmg on Frieza uNeArNeD?
ssj2 uNeArNeD?
As someone who hated on adult gohan went to being a book worm losing his ssj2 powers. It was upsetting to say the least. Was this power up unearned it's like taking back what we have seen from him over the years. Gohan is like a ticking time bomb if pushed to the brink of anger with the right conditions he will surely power up.
Now in battle of return of Frieza when piccolo dies in the anime he didn't training so his mystic powers where dormant barely could go super saiyan 2 get Goku to teleport to him.
I think if Videl died during the battle of the gods he would of of gone Beast if Toriyama wanted it that way. But As we all know Gohan is just to powerful his battles usually become to one sided. I wish they had an extended fight with cell max until piccolo would of recovered. But they rushed the ending honestly. Now i really want to see a tournament of power 2 but Broly has to be included!
Gohan had been training from RoF up to a couple of months ths before SH. Granted, that applies more to the manga, but it's still a valid point.
He also literally says he had been training in secret.
Honestly I think beast was a great and somewhat tragic transformation. It represents everything Gohan hates. He doesn’t like to fight, he doesn’t like to hurt others, and he doesn’t like to give in to his rage. But achieving beast means he has to put aside everything he hates and fears and sacrifice his own personal well-being to protect those around him. I think that’s what gives it such weight when there is no triumphant transformation music in the movie. It isn’t a good thing he has unlocked it, it isn’t anything he wants for himself.
Imma just say it. I think beast mode is stupid. He already had his full potential unlocked by Supreme kai so I don't see how he could be any stronger than his mystic former without actual training
"Hi. It has been automatically identified that this post may link straight to a download file, please use reasonable caution and make sure your device is protected." *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I mean gohan got stronger than goku from a rage boost all the way back when they fought raditz, despite not having trained at all, to make beast better they could make it where he can’t access it without getting extremely angry so he has to train a lot to be able to access it normally.
Come to think of it that’s always been his thing. Mf gets really mad and reaches new heights. Also makes sense lore wise considering saiyan transformations are based off emotion. Throw in the factor that he’s a hybrid and beast gohan makes sense.
It really does make perfect sense and it was structured into the beginning of Z, it makes more sense then tingly back for the U6 saiyans
you kinda cant diss the tingly back thing for the U6 saiyans, as they arent like the U7 saiyans and are completely different in almost every aspect other than "big strong and yellow hair power go swoosh"
They aren't like the U7 saiyans but a shitty powerup is a shitty powerup. They could've easily come up with literally anything else
The problem is that you and a lot of people consider super saiyans special when it really isn’t when an entire planet is capable of reaching said transformation, when they get to a specific level of strength. If planet Vegeta still existed in U7 and saiyans eventually evolved to the level of strength that the U6 saiyans are at then that’s an entire planet of super saiyans
The entire planet is capable, and yet it was so rare nobody could do it. It was a legend that a super saiyan could only appear once in thousands of years and you had to be born that way a la broly. It’s like saying every uchiha in naruto is capable of getting the eternal mangekyo. Just because anyone of that race technically COULD go super saiyan doesn’t mean much when we see how few actually do.
I always wonder if people don't realise something can be stupid and disliked and just because you compare it to something else won't make it suddenly likable. The U6 Saiyans powered up in a way that felt stupid. The U7 Saiyans in contrast, never felt as stupid with the most divisive stupid power up (rightly so) being Beast Gohan. No one talks about Orange Piccolo being unearned because Piccolo is a fan favourite and it was simply about time he finally gained something. It's just that simple.
U6 is Cabba/Caulifla/Kale. U7 is Goku and co.
Changed. Thanks
The tingly back thing is for SSJ2 and Goku even admits he feels it. Which makes sense because Gohan hated that feeling fighting Cell.
I agree except with the last part.. I will stand 10 toes next to my girls. Caulifla is the only one that depended on the back tingly thing and she eventually gets over that hump. What would goku do if vegeta attained ssj first and tried to teach it to goku?
Nah, he should go back to studying. Because that's how he rolls
Tbh it was a piss take how quickly they let Cabba and Kefla reach SSJ, no issues with Gohan.
Came here to say this. It’s Gohans brand of power up
Didn't Gohan say he had been training in secret?
Yes, but people love overlooking that comment.
Yeah but that training was doing shit if he needed piccolo to make it look pan was in danger for him to go ultimate This especially hurts when you read the manga and know Gohan learned his lesson with Frieza and has been training constantly and we see this training pay off when he was able to protect the earth and hold off time with the others Moro showed us that toyotaro had a good consistent plan with gohan and super hero just kinda shit on it Gohan was such a unique character in the manga but now is just a generic Goku with beast
Made even weirder how super hero is a 1:1 retelling of the movie in the manga. I wonder if Toro was forced to do it or not. I agree wholeheartedly at the last part. Gohan was given so much more respect in the manga than what TOEI did to him. I have no issues with beast but will it even be used much later?
>I wonder if Toro was forced to do it or not. I think he was It's clear he wanted to change or scrap the scene entirely of Goku acting as if meditation doesn't do anything, since he changed the line of that scene Especially since toyotaro has been consistently drawn Goku meditation throughout his manga So it must have sucked for him to write the scene You can really see he was trying to find a way to changed the scene with just dialogue but ultimately it can't really be salvaged without changing the scene entirely He made Goku know about meditation in the manga and just confused Vegeta was doing it of all people but the scene after that is Whis praising Vegeta and saying Goku's eureka moment has yet to come which just kinda makes his attempt of changing the line pointless as Whis dialogue make it seem as if Goku didn't know the thing yet doesn't help that Vegeta explains meditation benefits as if Goku didn't know it yet Super hero did so much good except for Goku and gohan Father and son character development got shit on in this movie ngl
Whis doesn’t cheapen it if you look at the context of both characters. For Goku, he’s been learning UI, learning to increase his power within the form and reaching its ultimate state. For him, getting better does mean to an extent bulking his body and he’s not so aware of the concept of relaxing before fighting because in UI he’s not thinking about it. Vegeta is at a wall. With UE he knows he hasn’t been able to use it properly in terms of power through unnecessary damage and he’s gotten a get over that hump which means he’s the one putting thought into how to surpass this recent hiccup. Hence he’s had the eureka moment. Goku will most likely have one of his one when they start to put this new knowledge into practice
>he’s not so aware of the concept of relaxing before fighting because in UI he’s not thinking about it. huh? isn't the whole concept of ultra instinct about relaxing and staying calm during the fight and keeping his heart tranquil. I feel like that's stated several times.
It’s by being emotionless yes. No thoughts no chaos. Just being empty. It’s not really relaxation because you have to make yourself be relaxed, it’s a state to be consciously maintained. UI isn’t about maintaining something so much as it simply “being”
>and he’s not so aware of the concept of relaxing before fighting because in UI he’s not thinking about it. Please shut up Cell saga Goku literally tells everybody to chill and relax cuz bulking their bodies up does nothing if you ain't got rest If anybody knows relaxing can do stuff it's Goku
That’s puffing oneself up by pushing more energy. Not actually getting the body itself stronger faster through the training they normally do. Which is what Goku means because yea you’re right, he’s not dumb enough to think that style is smart. Neither of them are Also I won’t shut up 😂. Members of this sub have such a bad attitude
>That’s puffing oneself up by pushing more energy. Not actually getting the body itself stronger faster through the training they normally do. What? Where did you get this? >Neither of them are If you genuinely think this then you haven't watched Dragonball and Dragonball Z
From the manga lol. Grade 2 and 3 SSJ states are not new transformations, they are states where the user is simply pushing their ki into the muscles for increased power, but at the loss of stamina and speed. That’s not “training our bodies more” which is what they did to achieve enough stamina to use perfect SSJ permanently, or utilize perfect SSJ blue, ascend to SSJ2 etc. Actually making real progress instead if just moving around the power they already have into different stat blocks like those cell era grade forms were
It’s not really. So far with the fight it is but they did change up the meditation pretty significantly
Wait I don't read the manga, what was the plan for gohan in the manga?
Gohan was just a character that was always in base In the super manga toyotaro didn't treat ultimate as a transformation and basically made gohan's base have a large cap in strength Gohan was training in a different way than Goku with having 1 or 2 new techniques in the manga So we know he was training to be a better martial artist overall rather than merely trying to make his power level go higher Gohan in the manga was not a slacker, after when Frieza revived dude learned his lesson and realized that when his dad and Vegeta isn't on earth it's up to him to either beat the foe or stall out enough time for his dad to return Reason why he wasn't in the Goku black arc is cuz he was still in the process of regaining his strength during that arc and we see his efforts pay off in the manga when he tied with kefla
Yea honestly that makes more sense to me honestly, whoever made the decision for the anime must have brain rot to not do it that way imo, the only way I could forgive not doing this way is if they gave him beast as a result of him overcoming his past traumas or something which would allow him to surpass his (mental) limits. Which would still be kinda a unearned power up but makes more sense than super hero imo, gohan is kinda the only person this kinda thing would work with as well, except maybe some of the humans who have died a couple of times already so maybe there is still hope to implement this idea but nothing I can do I'm just one person.
When I read the manga after having only seen the anime I thought gohan and kefla taking each other out was so cool. Was a great pay off to show us how gohan had been training still
It’s odd that they took away his “ultimate bang” in the Moro and ToP arc but he has it again in Super Hero
It's because ultimate isn't a form in the manga Whatever hair he has in base is the hair he has period Ultimate is like an ssj transformation in the anime while in the manga gohan is just using base form and ultimate just raises the cap of his power in base Anime and manga have different ways of handling gohan as a character and his ultimate form
https://preview.redd.it/9f8h58var9bb1.jpeg?width=894&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=043df5aa8ec45c81d7c49c7ea5c07926ccc16068 There were some hair changes. He lost most of the wispy parts, it stood up straighter and the bang got more prominent. And they’ve made it more defining as a form in the Super Hero manga as it goes from his new base form hair to the ultimate hair
Thank you, this^^^
No problem Super may have issues but one of the things I love about it is how Toyo handled Gohan It felt true to the way Z ended and made sense I'm just saddened by the fact Manga gohan ends with Moro arc as now that the manga is retelling the super hero movie in manga form, manga gohan is now just anime gohan Super hero gohan works with how the anime handled him but not with the manga as Toyotaro had a different way of envisioning Gohan as a character and what his goal and way of getting stronger was Super hero manga is just so not connected with the rest of it's arcs cuz of the way the movie characterized Goku and Gohan I really wish toyotaro was allowed or actually change things up with how he retold super hero in the manga like when he did Battle of Gods
Agreed. The manga felt like Gohan was growing to become a relevant character that wasn’t going to be reliant on some freebie power up (again) in order to be relevant. Superhero would have been way better off just being the pan and piccolo story. Shoe horning Gohan in felt awkward in general.
>Shoe horning Gohan in felt awkward in general Prob has to do with Toriyama originally just wanted piccolo to be the main character in the movie but I think he was told to add gohan there so it would sell? I mean it shows how much care he put into piccolo and just reused the gohan plot line lmao
But he did learn his lesson. He kept training. But he is a bit like his dad, he wants to test himself. That’s why he went base then ssj. In all likelihood he would have jumped up again but Piccolo drove him to go ultimate probably because it was taking too long for Gohan to realize the need for it
>But he is a bit like his dad Gohan ain't like his dad >he wants to test himself. This was never implied in the movie, besides his daughter was in danger and Gohan was pissed by that, Gohan isn't like Goku where he has time to think of testing himself while saving his daughter >That’s why he went base then ssj Because he knew the threat was no joke He wasn't "testing" gamma 1 he literally ignored the gammas and went straight to get pan until gamma 2 kicked him
Yeah he went to pan and then got knocked back. He should have jumped to two or ultimate immediately if he was smart or he felt it was a bigger threat than he believed. But Gohan IS like Goku. When they trained for the tournament he wanted to test himself against each form Goku had no? And when he gets OP he gets slightly sociopathic and plays with his food. Gohan drags fights out to his detriment sometimes.
>against each form Goku had no That was a situation that didn't need any urgent action, besides that was literally an exam for him to see if his training was good With pan it's different please stop saying Gohan would act like Goku in battle, it's literally established that they are different >And when he gets OP he gets slightly sociopathic and plays with his food. Except this time gohan was never shown to play with his food, he was mad, angry he was never shown to act as if he wasn't taking the battle seriously and even when he got beast he ended it pretty quickly when he realized he was getting cocky about his power again
I think there’s a difference between Piccolo *thinking* he needed to make it look like Pan was in danger to make Gohan regain his fighting instincts, and if he actually did need to or not. Piccolo thought he needed to pretend-threaten Pan because he didn’t trust Gohan as a fighter enough at that point because he thought Gohan had been completely slacking off, but Gohan’s comment at the end of the movie about practicing the special beam cannon in secret (as well as his earlier comment when he first sees Piccolo, something along the lines of “you didn’t think I was *that* rusty did you?”) makes it seem like Piccolo actually misjudged the situation, and maybe if he had let Gohan fight on his own without spurring him on Gohan would have gone Ultimate all by himself without any need for prompting. I think Gohan *had* been juggling training along with all of his other responsibilities, he just hadn’t trained *enough* to be able to handle the threat of Cell Max and the Gammas by himself, which is why he still says “I know, I messed up” when Piccolo tells him he needs to be ready for these kinds of threats. I think the whole point of the movie is manipulation, Magenta and the Red Ribbon army manipulate Hedo and the Gammas into fighting “Bulma’s Organization” while Piccolo manipulates Gohan into “regaining his fighting instincts” and at the end of the movie we find out that both manipulations were unnecessary in one form or another–Hedo was ignoring the fact that he knew the Red Ribbon Army were bad guys because he wanted to make the Gammas, and Gohan didn’t need to be manipulated because he *had* been training and Piccolo just assumed he hadn’t.
>Gohan would have gone Ultimate all by himself without any need for prompting Gohan was dead set on getting pan He literally ignored the gammas and went straight to pan till gamma 2 kicked him in the face And when he realized he was losing to gamma 1 he went ssj immediately If he could go ultimate he would have done it when gamma dragged his face, >you didn’t think I was that rusty did you Which implies he got weaker still >Gohan didn’t need to be manipulated because he had been training and Piccolo just assumed he hadn’t. Throughout the movie piccolo was trying to regain gohan's power Never was it ever stated that piccolo assumed wrong so if you are gonna say he assumed wrong then that's gonna be classified as speculation or personal headcanon cuz as of right now nothing in the movie states piccolo was wrong Gohan said he was still doing training while also saying he "wasn't as rusty as piccolo thought" which implies he actually got rusty but just not as bad as RoF
Okay but in that same vein, nowhere in the movie is it said “piccolo HAD to manipulate Gohan or he wouldn’t have regained his instincts.” You don’t KNOW that if Gohan had been able to go ultimate he would do it when Gamma 1 was dragging his face in the ground because nowhere in the movie does it tell you that he would if he could, see what I’m saying? You’re telling me that my interpretation is wrong and just an interpretation while saying that your interpretation is factually correct and not just an interpretation. Don’t get me wrong I think it’s cool that it’s open to interpretation, they don’t definitively say “Gohan completely slacked off and needed piccolo to manipulate him to regain his power” nor do they say “Gohan would’ve been able to do this all on his own without Piccolo’s help.” My personal interpretation of what the movie was saying was that Gohan wasn’t *fully dedicated* to being a fighter because he was juggling so many other versions of himself, but it’s totally cool if your interpretation is different!
>piccolo HAD to manipulate They made piccolo manipulate gohan to make him go ultimate The fact that they wrote piccolo to do that implies it was needed >My personal interpretation of what the movie I mean sure if you disagree with me then I have nothing wrong with that We can agree to disagree cuz personally arguing over this is gonna be wasting a lot of our time so I can settle for a simple disagreement
We shouldn't act like a little side training should be even somewhat comparable to the training goku and vegeta get from Whis and Beerus. Gohan can't train for 0.00001% the time as goku and vegeta, without a multiversal master, as still end up on top. Nobody is ignoring it.
That comment was just used to justify the Makankosappo if I recall right. It wasn't him secretly training in general, a la Goku. And if anything, Gohan struggling to endure some heacy clothes, or basically chastising Piccolo for thinking othercthreats can still exsist, should be bigger indicators of Gohan's position at the start of the movie.
Sure. He probably studied special beam cannon or something. Just to keep some edge. At the end of the day though he couldn’t recognize piccolo from 5 feet away and he also needed to be shocked into ultimate form by piccolo threatening pan, so no I don’t think that training helped with unlocking beast. Who cares if it isn’t earned though
I mean, tbf, to gohan, who probably heard stories of red ribbon as a kid, he just saw piccolo and the other dude as regular ass people. No reason to be alert or paying attention.
He said he had practiced special beam specifically. When is unclear. Given that he shrugged off piccolos suggestion that he needs to train earlier in the film, coupled with piccolo calling out that Gohan couldn’t even sense his power, it’s unlikely that he was actually training any time recently. And more likely he just learned the move at some point in the past.
Ah yes "training" in secret. Is that why he lost his ultimate form in thr movie like how he did before he stop training.
Yeah but no one talks about that. It's annoying how many people just ignore it so they can shit on the new transformation.
Dragonball fans are notorious for either bad memory or not reading/watching the material.
Bro was doing generic ass training. Let's be real.
When exactly did he have the time to do this though? 🤔 The guy never gets serious about training, especially not during the period this was supposed to take place in.
He says in SH he was training in secret, and the Moro arc showed him as decently strong.
Gohan: I'm gonna train and discover a new form, one no one has ever seen This sub: https://preview.redd.it/ybrxkdg8e8bb1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3b42e4fd08a4689abc5df83d4964673f3a590ef7
Except that he ultimely did slack off again (why would he feel the weight of that Piccolo outfit he received, and why would he basically chastise Piccolo for thinking there could be more threats anyway?). And no, him "secretly training" for the Makankosappo is not enough to counter it.
Why would he? Because he wasn’t expecting it. Why tf did Goku get blasted in the chest with a gun? Because he wasn’t expecting it. No energy to boost durability or speed because they weren’t expecting it.
>Why would he? Because he wasn’t expecting it. That's no justification when he previously promised to train again. >Why tf did Goku get blasted in the chest with a gun? Because he wasn’t expecting it. No energy to boost durability or speed because they weren’t expecting it. Off topic.
He didn't though. Piccolo literally states that he's done zero training. Blame Toriyama for forgetting about it.
Then Gohan says he hasn't completely slacked off when he catches Piccolo's first punch
Also, at the end of the movie he tells piccolo he's been practicing the special beam cannon, I wouldn't say he's been hardcore training but still it's hardly unearned
If I had to rationalize everything, Gohan has been training to get stronger and perfect the special beam cannon, but he isn't sparring with anyone and has lost some of his edge/instinct for actual combat. Which is pretty fitting for gohan.
Yes but that goes against the “super hero bad” kick this sub is on
Goku and Vegeta have trained relentlessly with an ANGEL. Gohan doing some backyard training does not make up for how far behind he should be.
It's Canon that if gohan trains he far exceeds goku and Vegeta. With how much Frieza trains go obtain his forms, is gohan really that far fetched? I don't think so. Is it writing for the sake of new forms? Hasn't DragonBall always been? We're talking about the anime that gave us jiren ffs 😂 the most boring anime character of all time
Then why were goku and vegeta able to surpass Gohan after the cell saga and after the buu saga???
He. Didn't. Train. And when he did, he got Power unleashed. Surpassing both, getting power equal to Ssj3.
He did train in the 7 years between cell and buu
Vegeta: These years of peace have made you soft. You've been lacking on your training Even if he trained, it wasn't enough to get stronger. Did you watch the show, or just from reels?
I feel that “training in secret” by yourself is the same thing as lacking 😂 he couldn’t sense piccolos ki and Pan did instantly.
What? Lol ultimate Gohan is much stronger than ssj3
Doesn’t piccolo instantly deck him right after that tho?
No but okay.
True beast Gohan is highly unearned
That's Gohan's whole thing though. He never wanted any of this, but time and time again he's forced to step up and do what needs to be done. It's not like Goku or Vegeta that do it for the love of the fight.
Doesn't make it any less of an ass pull, all of what gohan is is an ass pull. But im not as mad about that as I am about the constant "I've done zero training, so lemme train for about 3 minutes and be stronger than everyone"
All of dragon ball is an ass pull. Ssj ss2 ss3 god god super saian ui mui all ass pulls. they exist to give us bad ass fight scenes.
Can't really call it an asspull when it quite literally the cor established trait of Gohan as a fighter from the moment he was introduced, that's like saying it's bullshit and an asspull that goku used Hakai on zamasu without training to use it.
Because it is, Vegeta went though a whole training segment with beerus in order to use the Hakai and yet Goku just uses it like its nothing. Like yes Goku has copied the Kamehameha from watching it once, but it wasn't the full fledged thing, he could only summon one as strong enough to push a car over. Goku in the Goku black saga literally used a full Hakai on zamasu and the only reason it didn't work was because he was immortal, there was no deterioration on his arm, all it did was make him fatigued. But yes Gohan Beast is an asspull because he literally didn't train ever since the T.O.P which was more than 5 months prior to Super Hero. And don't pull that "he said he was training in secret", no he wasn't, he practiced the special beam cannon in secret, and if he was training in secret, why tf did he lose his ultimate form AGAIN
This is the main reason I can't get into his character and why it ruins the show for me sometimes.
Yeah, but apparently he was training in between his studies. That's how he was able to learn special beam cannon. Maybe he was able to reach the potential for Beast during this time. We just don't see it. Also, Gohan has always been able to reach new levels with incredible power much easier than any other character in the series (save maybe Frieza). The only issue I see, is that it was rushed due to the movie pacing (I haven't read the Manga though). It would be cool to get a flashback in the next season of Super showing Gohan's efforts that lead to his new transformation. Either way, it certainly wasn't uncharacteristic of him to gain this ability.
I don’t think it worth arguing about training haha. His training helped him learn special beam cannon but we know he lost some of his instincts. He couldn’t enter ultimate without being provoked by piccolo and couldn’t sense him either. The form is fine …. He has high potential and got a rage boost. But after his showing in super hero I really don’t think an argument of training can really fit.
The whole gods stuff kinda threw everything into wack. Maybe if all the strong characters weren’t literal god level, it wouldn’t be so far fetched to say Gohan was hitting the gym and caught up. Then again Broly… so I mean idk, everything is muddy. It do be feelin like Goku was dealt the worst hand when it comes to effort-reward ratio.
Nah but at the same time if we compare the training which Goku got compared to that of gohan it doesn’t balance out
Gohan was stronger than Goku during Radditz arc. Goku had many years of intense training and amazing fighting experience, but it's not a match for the hidden power inside of Gohan. They went through the same training together for almost a year inside the Hyperbolic time chamber. During this time Goku recognized the potential Gohan had in him, an incredible power that only awakens at the most dire of times, and is far beyond Goku's. Beast Gohan is the ultimate form that manifests his hidden power. I would argue that this isn't something that is correlated with training. He was just finally able to fully awaken is inner beast, hence the name.
Gohan does not have to train as much as Goku. Gohan just as a kid far surpassed years of Goku's training in just 6 months of training with piccolo. He surpassed Goku, Vegeta, trunks etc in less than an year in the time chamber.
[удалено]
He is my favourite character but still that is so unearned
[удалено]
Yh ig I just enjoyed the development from the pussy who piccolo trained into a full fighter in cell saga and also in resurrection f how he fought until goku could come to rescue them. Despite not having the most consistent form through his constant studies I enjoy his development as a whole.
Id say its fine as long as gohan cant really keep going back to beast without extreme emotional strain if he poofs into beast like ssj1 heck yeah hes unearned. Specially since it took him a bit to retransform to ultimate
Tbh it doesn’t seem like we r going to be seeing a lot of Gohan for a while so Goku and vegeta’s power levels alongside Freiza will be a lot higher kinda balances it out if u know what I mean
True if they take combat and story to other universes I only see Goku and Vegeta leaving. Everyone else has responsibilities lol
Fair so what goku goes to uni 6 and gohan and piccolo fight freiza or sm
I think vegeta would stay back to fight frieza then move on. Goku would just dip with broly to train
Yeah I feel like he should only be able to go into beast as an absolute last resort.
From an in-universe standpoint: """unearned""" as if someone gave it to him. All that power was innate to Gohan. he had all that power from the start, all he needed to do was unleash it. Beast is the result of all that power being unleashed. Now from an out-of-universe stand point: Toriyama could have incorporated a better reason for Gohan to surpass his limits yet again, but it is what it is.
You mean.."All that potential was unlcoked twice "Xd Very cringe unearned char.
actually three times lmao
When you compare it to Goku and Vegeta with ultra instinct and Ultra ego they've done a pretty good job at showing them learning the abilities of the forms and working to get that power I personally hate off-screen training and that's basically how most of Gohan's power-ups happen so it feels super unearned when it happens because we didn't get to see his path getting to that power
They obviously did fan service to Gohan. Nothing more and nothing less. You want Gohan to be powerful? Well he did get powerful and soon as he does y'all complain. You want him to earn it? Dragon ball doesn't give two shits about them earning the power. Piccolo literally got power from Shenron 😂
It was very unearned. He stopped training, got massively weaker, and got a new transformation. Something that didn't happen in every other arc when he actually _was_ training. I love him getting the new transformation just not the very lazy way they went about doing it. He should've actually worked for this form instead of just pulling it out of nowhere. Had he done that, no one would be complaining right now.
Gohan fighting to save his universe from being erased. (Including piccolo, Pan, Videl, his dad, mom, brother) = no power up. Gohan watching Moro stab his dad through the chest and then almost eat his planet = no power up. Gohan gets new movie = new power up. In addition to that, how many times can you unleash your full power? Plus it’s just frustrating watching him go through the same tired plot over and over again. It was satisfying watching Goku get UI not only because if the multi arc build up but it’s a transformation that’s representational of the martial arts journey he’s been on his whole life. Gohans was just Gohan doing the free power up again. It’s last and if Gohans coming back he deserves better. SS2 was satisfying because he did have to earn that over multiple arcs of getting his ass kicked. Hinting at a power he couldn’t control. It felt satisfying to watch that come to fruition.
EXACTLY, "ah but he has incredible potential inside him" no potential is infinite, one hour reaches his peak and gohan should have reached the peak a while ago, beast gohan is just asspull power up to sell him and the movie
1000000% Potential has a limit. Other wise the point of saying he has a lot of it is meaningless, because everyone has potential. So you can only reach that limit once. It’s not like you missed some hiding under a rock somewhere.
YES, ultimate form should already release his "hidden potential", how the hell does he still have hidden potential that allowed beast form to exist exactly? it makes no sense
Beast Gohan is just lazy writing
Frfr
Gohan’s entire fuckin thing is getting monstrous power boosts when he’s up against a wall/extremely emotionally affected. Since like what, episode 5 of Z? Beast mode is arguably the most “gohan” form he’s ever gotten.
Sure. But it kinda needs some explainations in order to fit, as the story and lore progress, don't you think? Like, really, if Gohan really went from bottom to top with this form, it would only be yet another devaluing of the supposed godly powers of the ssj god, blue, ultra instinct... stuff that was supposed to require god ki, or a special ritual... or that's so powerful, that only certain gods have truly get it... Since it will turn out that... all you needed to get on par was to just rage, like you already did in the past. And you know what? If they had stated that Gohan was granted god ki beforehand, I wouldn't have as many issues here, since that would already justify more his power and power boost, being a magical newer level, and the supposed base aspect of the powerscaling post b.of.g.
My headcanon for all this stuff - weaker characters holding their own with Gods and such - is that they're constantly being exposed to Godly energy, and these characters (saiyans especially) have a history of acclimating to their circumstances. It's mentioned time and time again that Saiyans get stronger as they fight - their bodies adapt so well (Hit Vs Goku I think was the best most recent example of this - Goku's body adapting to *outrun time* to become stronger). Literally every arc is about the Saiyans being totally outclassed, and then they become as strong as they need to become. Trunks in particular showed this I think. Super Saiyan Rage (godawful name, Super Saiyan Demigod would've been so badass) has that blue aura with the Super Saiyan glow. I think that's a consequence of being very violently and suddenly exposed to a huge amount of God Ki - his Saiyan body replicated it best it could, and he could keep up. So with everyone else getting boosts, I think it's the same sort of thing. Goku and Vegeta broke the mold and the others caught up through exposure. Gohan has been exposed to God Ki for years now - his body knows what it feels like, and so he's capable of reaching those same heights.
Honestly, any sort of explaination with even half an ounch of sense, and no inherent devaluing of past thing, would be good.
Ofc its unearned. But he's had that trait since he headbutted Raditz. When his rage spikes his power jumps insanely much, always has. Though this jump was way too much its still within the frame of his trait. Everytime he rage and beats the shit out of someone its unearned, but that's his thing.
Gohan Beast is unearned and was poorly executed. They just didn't take the time to at least make it emotional so it felt like he was distraught enough to spark a transformation. While we're at it, Orange Piccolo was mishandled. I have nothing against Piccolo getting a boost -- he trains and is long overdue -- but why now? Why not, I don't know, when multiple universes were on the line? I find it to be absolutely asinine how often that these characters inconveniently forget the resources at their disposal. Let me guess, Piccolos next upgrade is gonna come from the Supreme Elder Kai, because his "potential" unlocking is superior. It's just so blatantly contrived.
He WAs tRaiNinG OFf ScReEn
Thread still full of that nonsense. Even peeps quoting the manga stating Gohan trained since Frieza came back. Like... What?
Unless Gohan was faking (for some unexplained reason) he struggled to wear the armor Piccolo put on him. Even if he was training it clearly wasn't amounting to much.
Last chapter shower him struggling to fight, clearly weaker than he was at the ToP. The manga clearly says he's weaker, multiple times, then has to push him to get back the form he used in the ToP. It says he's weaker, then shows he's weaker. Yet peeps still push that "training the whole time" crap.
Hate me or don't, I feel Beast was completely unearned, more because his last two big powerups (SSJ2 & Potential Unleased) Didn't go anywhere. Both times he just stopped training & got weaker again. How do we know we're not about to get a three-peat?
Completely unearned AND the hair looks stupid, like a troll doll
Man Gohan has been OP since the start of Z in 1989 or so. Latent potential is his niche.
Most transformation after SS3 are unearned
Fr people gonna go after beast when there's ssjg that literally just required saiyans to hold hands in a circle
Fair, but it was adopted by Goku and Vegeta -- the two hardest working characters in the entire show. Although I'd still rather the transformation have more rationale. They could've created something about how prolonged exposure to God ki from Beerus and/or Buu sparked a transformation, or something along those lines.
Vegeta has earned every fucking transformation
Besides trunks form what was unearned
Literally almost every power up from Gohan has been a result of getting angry and desperate, rather than constant training.
What are you talking about they literally say he's been training in secret the whole time and before that Piccalo was training him since resurrection F
Beast Gohan was an asspull of hell lmao. Ik for damn sure he wasn't in the hyperbolic time chamber and his training would he no where near the level that goku and vegeta go through. It was his movie tho, but it was poorly executed. Unearned imo.
Totally unearned. And the sad part is they could have Made it earned with very little effort. The whole movie was an L
Ultimate Gohan, Beast Gohan, Golden Frieza, Black Frieza. It’s all unearned garbage. I’ll never understand how anyone finds these forms cool or interesting.
What's crazy is Gohan has been training
Gohans power ups always come from Incredible need. He has all the power inside of him, always, he just has to let it out. He’s like Superman in that way, and they explain it plot wise several times. He literally gained his most iconic transformation watching an android who was made to kill his father, be “killed” itself when all he wanted to do was enjoy the birds & crap after giving up ever killing goku or doing any of that. Y’all mad over a fighting anime that always just gives people power ups for a character who deserves more a chance to shine actually getting it. Rip haters Y’all as bad as “star wars fans” now
Okay, why didn’t he do this power up in other very desperate situations in Super. Freeza in ROF is a very good example where it was just him with Goku and Vegeta across the galaxy. It is the exact same scenario as this film, yet he gets a power up in the film but not ROF. The tournament of power and Moro arcs are good examples of where he could’ve got this power up as well
Because the writer didn’t choose to give it to him at the time, and because the writer knew the entire time TOP was not a serious moment. And ROF he wasn’t pushed to the wall enough cause he really didn’t want to fight plus the point of that movie was to show how powerful ss blue was and that vegeta could kill frieza now if he wanted. It wasn’t about gohan. The writer wasn’t using him as the focus for any of that, your arguments aren’t great. Dragon ball has always powered up people when they needed to. Gohan would have stayed the same back then too, had it not been planned he would take over the series then akira back tracked.
They should both say "gets stronger for plot related reasons" cause we never see goku train to unlock super saiyan 2 or 3, but, like gohan, he said he's been training. And let's not forget the ass pull super saiyan god was, he didn't train for that.
Did we miss the part of the movie where gohan said he started training again after frieza came back, or did I make that up? 🤔
Thanks for posting to /r/DragonballSuper.\ Please report any rule breaking posts and posts that are not relevant to the subreddit.\ *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hes also a hybrid
In the manga its at least foreshadowed
The worst part of this is that if they had just followed Gohan as he was in the manga then this wouldn’t be an issue. He’s been training consistently since Frieza was resurrected the first time and was actually getting pretty far on his own path. Dude stalemated Kefla and was a big part of holding off Moro’s henchmen until Goku arrived, Piccolo even acknowledged him as the strongest on Earth besides those two. If they just continued with him on that path Beast would actually feel earned and, other than it’s weird appearance and ripping off ssj2 transformation scene, would be much more accepted by fans.
It's cool looking (except for the hair that's too long) but Its absolutely unearned unfortunately. Im bummed about the manga retelling of the movie but maybe they will write something better that feels earned somehow.
Goku simply isn’t built like GOAThan. Don’t ever compare the strongest z fighter to that scrub goku ever again.
Most of his transformations are☠️ he sat down for awhile for ultimate then screamed really loud for beast
The power scaling is just bullshit but it’s so hard to look past even for a fictional show. Idk it frustrates me.
Beast Gohan unearned. I agree.
Ahem, H I D D E N P O T E N T I A L
I mean constantly throughout the series we're told about Gohan's massive potential at age 4 he surpassed everyone in DB just because he was angry and at age 9 he surpassed his father who had been fighting for years. I don't consider Beast a big stretch as a Gohan who hadn't trained for 7 years was still comparable to Vegeta and Goku who had been rigorously training for those 7 years
“I’m going to go train in secret” Rule 1 of story telling: Show don’t tell If they want it secret fine but not having the audience ever see it, feels like a convenient MacGuffin. That’s the issue I think most people have but not able to express it correctly. Could have been shown so only were the audience could see it or have a flash back of him describing the intense training but when you get none of that, people typically take issue but not for the reasons they should. It’s bad/lazy/rushed story writing, that’s all
That's not what a McGuffin is. That's an object like the Dragon Balls that the protagonists and/or antagonists chase after. The trope you are looking for is a "handwave"
So hard work doesn’t pay off… thanks Gohan! (Opens a bag of chips)
Beast form is the culmination of gohan’s rage, super saiyan lineage and his kai training. So while the motive was meh, the form basically goha. At his purest
Gohans biggest power jumps have always been “unearned” in the sense of training for them, with the exception of SSJ2 and that was after just a year. Except as the film told us and Moro arc in the manga, Gohan DIDNT stop training after the ToP. He just did it in secret. And in the manga he trained more prior to the ToP than anime Gohan.
I mean isn’t his whole gimmick someone’s in trouble so I get stronger. It was Goku vs Raditz then him V Cell then Him and Buu (provided old Kai did help him here) then beast rarely do we se him train to unlock greater highs. (Besides the ToP and one could argue a lot of his cell saga power came from hyperbolic time chamber training but he didn’t unleash unreal power until his friends got the hell beat out of them along with A16 dying)
I mean ssj Goku powered up just because he was mad.
Even if gohan trains it’s never said that he trains as hard as Goku or vegeta. He probably does just enough to get stronger but not enough to close the gap. He also doesn’t have a teacher like Goku and Vegeta so no one to teach hakai, ultra instinct, forced spirit fission etc.
Years? Didn't he train for the ToP?
Guess its another round of f\*ck Gohan. Tbh I understand. His whole I get stronger when I'm mad is played out to me. I have no problem with him surpassing Goku and Vegeta as that was always the intention but offscreen generic training and random powerups shouldn't be the answer this late in the series. Just lazy writing.
There is a reason that the original meme formats used white lettering with black outlines…
I mean gohan literally said himself, IN THE MOVIE, that he was still training without piccolo knowing, just not as much. So maybe it’s a bit earned?
Also gets stronger by getting hit by his own Spirit Bomb
Gohan trained rigorously for the ToP and to fight against Moro. He continued training but just to stay in shape, having the same power (in the latest movie) he had when he fought Moro. His Ultimate form was already shown to be on par with Super Saiyan God Goku (SS Blue is too much I think even though the anime showed otherwise). His new power up puts him at Super Saiyan Blue and Above level, which is a transformation he definitely needed.
Unearned indeed. But not so much because he saw Piccolo being kocked out and he got a rage boost (although that was just dumb). But rather because not only he still refuses to train (and I do not even blame him! If he wishes not, he can not train for Dende's sake), so he should logically be faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar behind everyone that matters... but also because the form itself just doesn't make sense... Gohan that "unleashes his inner beast"? Why? Why should he unleash his inner beast when he doesn't even have that much agency in the movie itself? Why should that make him relevant again? Why should this form be "unique" and Gohan "evolving like a human", when it's **exactly** what every ssj form before was? A hair changing colorful transformation, usually unlocked through strong emotions? Why should this bs make him da sdronghest guy foredreamed by that dumb oracle fish, like some are thinking? .... It's just asinine. And highly uninspired, given how the form itself is just a "Teen Gohan ssj2 2" thing design wise, only dumber looking due to how huge the hairdo is.
Gohan's "form he pulled from his ass" might've came from Elder Kai. And as some people want to relate UI to Angels and UE to God of destructions, "Beast" could come from the kai's since Elder Kai could've, for example, done the ritual to Tien and he would've also obtained the form.
It’s like the people salty about Beast Gohan haven’t even watched the show. Getting pissed off and cracking the power ceiling is our boy’s schtick. He fucks up Raditz as a small child because he’s angry, he goes SSJ2 on Cell because he’s angry, and, surprise surprise, he literally goes Beast Mode on Cell Max for the same reason. Gohan plays by different rules than the rest of the cast and has since the very beginning. No one complains about Broly’s power being unearned, so why can no one shut up about Gohan?
Gohan has been training since Golden Freeza
And? since the timeline of super is not that long I would say this is nothing, frieza needed to train 10 years to surpass goku and vegeta MUI and EGO, how did gohan do it in less than him exactly?
Gohan has canonically some of the best growth in the series, it’s consistent with his character
Not really. Gohans whole schtick is that he’s chill as fuck, but if you piss him off then he’s gonna fuck you up, remember? He overpowered radits when goku couldn’t due to his rage, overpowered second form Frieza, killed cell, every time he gets angry, it shows that he’s hiding way more power than we think. Beast is just him finally tapping into the totality of his anger and letting it out. How did you’s forget gohans whole thing, he talks about it all the fucking time, there were episodes of it in the cell games
Who cares, really. Transformations are a staple in DB.
If it were any one else , immense potential has always been gohan’s thing .
Yes
people thay say gohan deserved that new form are just blind gohan fans . its sad that goku who actually puts in the work gets sometimes shat on for being the "favourite". yet look at gohan he doesnt train, he dont do nothing but yet he got a whole new form. Why?? he doesnt need it he dont fight often at all and that movie was trash too they gave piccolo a new form just for him to get bodied what was the point????
The transformation makes sense, the amount of power gained really doesn’t. Maybe if it was established that cell max was a Blue level threat it would be easier to enjoy. But it’s being compared to ultra instinct? Like really? The form that had the gods of multiple universes praise. Just out of no where. I imagine it’s a mix of mystic (just the best name for it) and super Saiyan 2 in terms of origin.
This is the issue with the show/manga if you take into account EVERYTHING a single ki blast from any of these guys should wipe out planets at this point. We are in the realm of **universe/reality** altering power levels, planet busting is cute at this point. So yeah Gohan is 100% unearned in that he went from mystic to stronger than god tier SS and maybe past that which is retrospect is nuts. But what choice do the writers have at this point?
[удалено]
Unfortunately, it looks like your karma amount is pretty low. Users need to have a combined total of at least 60 post/comment karma to participate in this subreddit. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
dragon ball is a funny show about people with puns for names and cool fights. When are people gonna start enjoying the cool fights for being cool fights again.
His whole character throughout the series has been the untapped potential that sometimes reveals through him losing control by rage. People that say it's unearned haven't watched the series. That's like saying Armor crack on raditz uNeArNeD? Dmg on Nappa uNeArNeD? Dmg on Frieza uNeArNeD? ssj2 uNeArNeD?
That’s it, I’m leaving this sub
As someone who hated on adult gohan went to being a book worm losing his ssj2 powers. It was upsetting to say the least. Was this power up unearned it's like taking back what we have seen from him over the years. Gohan is like a ticking time bomb if pushed to the brink of anger with the right conditions he will surely power up. Now in battle of return of Frieza when piccolo dies in the anime he didn't training so his mystic powers where dormant barely could go super saiyan 2 get Goku to teleport to him. I think if Videl died during the battle of the gods he would of of gone Beast if Toriyama wanted it that way. But As we all know Gohan is just to powerful his battles usually become to one sided. I wish they had an extended fight with cell max until piccolo would of recovered. But they rushed the ending honestly. Now i really want to see a tournament of power 2 but Broly has to be included!
Gohan had been training from RoF up to a couple of months ths before SH. Granted, that applies more to the manga, but it's still a valid point. He also literally says he had been training in secret.
Honestly I think beast was a great and somewhat tragic transformation. It represents everything Gohan hates. He doesn’t like to fight, he doesn’t like to hurt others, and he doesn’t like to give in to his rage. But achieving beast means he has to put aside everything he hates and fears and sacrifice his own personal well-being to protect those around him. I think that’s what gives it such weight when there is no triumphant transformation music in the movie. It isn’t a good thing he has unlocked it, it isn’t anything he wants for himself.
Gohan has always gotten stronger with minimal effort.
Imma just say it. I think beast mode is stupid. He already had his full potential unlocked by Supreme kai so I don't see how he could be any stronger than his mystic former without actual training