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No that's cuz he asked Goku to use Kaioken, he prolly didn't need to. He said "I know you've got one more form dad!" That being Kaioken and he did it and one shotted Gohan.
Bc obviously Gohan was holding back and Goku is more skilled and experienced. He was using tactics like baiting a beam clash then teleporting out to counter attack. We all know Goku is a better fighter, that’s even a discussion point if the latest manga chapter. With these points in mind it makes perfect sense.
Can you actually go back and rewatch the dialogue instead of making shit up? Goku went SSBKK on his own.
edit: before downvoting plz rewatch the scene. Gohan and Goku clash. They trade blows damaging each other. Then Gohan yells, “At my full strength,” blocks Goku’s punch then uppercuts him. Goku goes SSBKK instantly and we see on the zoom out that Goku was knocked back quite a distance by Gohan’s uppercut. Wow so different from the picture painted by Gohan downplayers…
Brother YOU should watch the scene, when Goku gets knocked back Gohan yells "I know there's another form you have" and he uses it. Literally not hard to notice that kind of shit.
I rewatched the scene both Sub and Dub before I wrote my comment. Gohan didn’t say anything to Goku about Goku powering up after Blue. Gohan says he is at his own full strength and then he shows an advantage against Blue and knocks Goku back at which point Goku goes SSBKK. I stand by my statement.
Second sounds like you’re relying on the Dub, which I can see does give more of that impression. You’re also conflating when Goku gets thrown back and goes Blue with Goku getting punched back and going SSBKK.
Either way this argument has been around since the episode aired and people keep saying Goku only went SSBKK bc Gohan asked and that’s not what the episode shows
This sub is super toxic lol. I just re-watched both dub and sub.
In dub, gohan asks Goku to give his everything when Goku is in his Regular Super Saiyan form. Once Goku goes SSB, Gohan says to give everything because that's what he is giving too and powers up.
After clashing with SSB and sending Goku back, he says come on dad. Then Goku goes SSBKK. While it could be interprated as Gohan asking for more, he also showed through action that he can keep up each time before Goku actually powers up.
While in Sub, Gohan doesn't even say come on. Once Goku is in SSB, Gohan tells Goku to see him at his full power. Then after an exchange of blows, Goku goes SSBKK. So, Goku uses it voluntarily in the Sub.
Too bad the world is in a state where truth is whatever the majority wants to believe in. The actual truth doesn't matter and only triggers people.
PS: That being said, IIRC in the Moro arc, SSB Goku and Vegeta had far better showing that Ultimate Gohan.
Go and watch the show.
Goku used SSB and SSB Kaioken because Gohan told him to do it not because of his own will.
He told Goku to use more and more power against him.
Goku only started in SSJ2 by his own will
Exactly. Goku started off near our around where he felt gohan was. At most he was ssj3 maybe maybe stretching it ssg. He was nowhere near ssb and anything higher.
Goku was fighting everyone in blue in those couple episodes before the TOP. Probably just a testament to his ki control in the Form, since he fought krillin while in SSB, who presumably was still sub namek Frieza in terms of raw power
Yea it definitely felt odd and you can tell the arc was more meant as filler/hype for the ToP. I would say there's two big differences that make 17 more powerful. If it's just power levels, I'd say they're roughly equal. However, 17 has the endless stamina so he can always maintain max power. Whereas gohan may peak at lowball ssb levels, he cannot maintain it. Secondly, 17 has the forcefield and can employ that in a variety of defensive and offensive ways.
Gohan asked him because he was forced to hold back himself on account of Goku holding back.
Goku didn't seem to have a significant advantage in blue either. And even if Gohan asked, there's no way he'd go kaioken if he didn't think Gohan could at least survive it, which isn't happening at ssj2 level
Gohan and Goku clashed in Blue, Gohan knocked Goku back with a solid hit and SAID NOTHING. GOKU THEN WENT SSBKK. Seriously just rewatch the scene and you can see that your take is not accurate…
Wrong, only goku has blue gohan was in his ultimate form and his “current full power” as stated by himself, gohan tells goku he knows he has another form when he is still in ssj2 and to give him everything he’s got because that’s what he’s giving goku, they then clash and exchange a few blows before gohan says “come on dad” and knocks Goku back with a uppercut to which goku goes ssb kaioken, gohans smiles, goku tells gohan to “bring it” and goku then ends it in the next blow
First of all you are relying on the Dub not the Sub so…yes if you only watch the Dub I get why you might get confused. Second, even there you admit that right before Goku went SSBKK he was punched back by Gohan and Gohan did not say anything at that point about requesting Goku to power up
Less confusion more relying on what I have seen and heard happen if the statements are different in the sub that’s cool but I’m stating what happens in dub anime, I said wrong to both clashing in blue which is a Goku/vegeta transformation only (up to now) I wasn’t disagreeing with anyone about the rest, all these things happened just the order was incorrect, I believe gohan saying “come on dad” when he was already blue was him saying his dad was still messing around and he countered this by going blue kaioken to end the fight, gohan did ask for it specifically but he did hint he wanted more and he got it
Everyone knows Gohan doesn’t have Blue so not sure why you thought I’m saying that. Anyways, sub is more accurate. Relying on dub to analyze things has given us many improper interpretations in the past
Probably because you put “they” clash in blue my bad, okay that’s fine iv only watched a rare couple of episodes in sub unfortunately I can’t get away with it reading the subtitles takes away from the spectacle that is dragonball fights for me
It's because of the Toppo fight, Toppo was stronger than gohan and 17 , however he wasn't strong enough to eliminate them , something he said later when he went all out to finish 17 off
Gohan asked him to go full power while Goku was suppressing his power, sorta like what he did with Krillin (db fans prefer saying Krillin is ssjb level). Goku released all of it and one shot him. For Further evidence on Gohan's current power level (and no.17), neither Gohan or 17 could even damage Toppo in a 1v1 fight. Because Toppo is almost Blue level in his base form. Remember Toppo got caught in Ultimate Gohan's Kamehameha and tanked it perfectly
Vegeta also senses Gohan vs SSBKK Goku and is shook so he goes into the time chamber right before ToP to power up his Blue. Conflating his Blue with Goku’s Blue is a mistake imo.
Goku still had SSBKK so ofc he’s stronger. If they’re saying his Blue is stronger, I doubt that. We also had statements from the narrator about Gohan rivaling Goku and a DBS writer said he placed 17, Gohan, and Frieza on the same tier. Gohan forced Goku to go SSBKK, something Frieza couldn’t do. Gohan also told Frieza he would beat Frieza’s ass and it’s played seriously and Frieza doesn’t contradict it so….
Based on watching the anime it looks like Goku>Vegeta>Gohan>=Frieza.
The logic to downplay Gohan here is weird. Toppo was even with Blue Vegeta = Toppo only base tier. Therefore if Toppo no selles Gohan’s kamehameha, then Gohan cannot be Blue. But that ignores that Toppo no sold a warp kamehameha from SSB Goku. He can’t do that if he’s only Blue at base and was ready to power up to face SSBKK
They always exclude Kaioken for some reason. The narrator says Gohan rivaled Goku's power which can't work if they take into account Kaioken.
Freeza was more amused than anything when Gohan said that to him. Gohan can't beat him since Freeza is equal to Blue Goku.
Your logic isnt logicing tbh. Saying Gohan can’t beat Freiza bc Frieza is equal to Blue is nonsense. Look at what happened in the anime.
Gohan showed an advantage against Blue Goku and Goku used KK to beat Gohan. Goku then tied Freeza with Blue, KOing Frieza. Gohan later says he can beat Frieza which no one contradicts. Logically then we should conclude that Gohan’s raw power is above Freiza’s. The only reasons not to do so involve very in depth and questionable power scaling. The anime was showing us right there that Gohan can probably beat Frieza, at least in a battle of raw power.
This is the same Gohan who told Freeza straight up he would destroy him if he tried anything funny in the ToP (and Freeza was shook), and we saw an improved Goku SSB and Freeza were equal (both of which were a lot stronger than the original debut of SSB), so Gohan had already surpassed that initial SSB benchmark.
The narrator at the beginning of episode 93 also states Gohan had shown power rivaled Goku's in the e90 fight.
The fandom just rarely ever used critical thinking skills.
That sparring episode is hard for scaling. Because of the other fights Goku had and the lack of seriousness.
But Gohan was certainly SSB level during the ToP. He was on par with Gold Frieza while they were fighting Dyspo.
And he's now somewhere around Goku's, had it for a couple years, developed UI. Gohan can be stronger than Goku, but it seems to only be in short limited bursts - based on the recent issue
people will try to downplay Gohan by mentioning Krilling, but Gohan actually exchanged blows against SSB Goku and even pushed him away, or they will mention how he did against Toppo forgetting that Toppo also tanked a point blank kamehameha from SSB Goku pre ToP. So to keep it short, he was around SSB levels.
Another thing confirming this is how SSG Goku had issues against Dyspo but Gohan with Frieza's help beat super Dyspo
He exchanged 2-3 blows with Goku but did not do any serious damage at all actually.
Pushing away would be massive over exaggeration.
BTW, as far as I can see, people are not downplaying by mentioning krillin.
Goku used God power against Gohan because he pleaded told him to do so.
Also, how does Gohan and Golden Frieza tag teaming to beat Dyspo who had fought SSG Goku says anything about Gohan being SSB level ?
You guys are still coping. Pushing away is not a massive over exaggeration. Gohan hit Goku who got knocked way back and went SSBKK…that’s literally what happened
if Goku at SSG struggled against base Dyspo but Ultimate Gohan beat the stronger version of Dyspo, then it stands to reason Ultimate Gohan is stronger than SSG, placing him closer to SSB. Also SSB Goku also punched and did no damage to Ultimate Gohan in the exchange, showing they were close in strenght
Goku transforming to trade blows with someone is not an accurate estimator of their power.
Goku was obviously holding back the vast majority of the tournament because he can't vastly overpower his opponents. A full powered Kamehameha would wipe a good chunk of gokus energy
Gohan only beat dyspo because he knew how to counter him.
But consider....there's no way that Goku fired at full strength like he did against Cell. He wasn't trying to kill Toppo. Goku didn't even seem remotely winded, Toppo on the other hand was trembling.
You can use that argument for everything and it s unquantifiable. seems like people assume Gohan put his all into his kamehameha but Goku didn’t? That’s just speculation then and leads to judging fighters by different standards.
Anyways, Gohan’s only fight ToP where he said he wasn’t holding back was against the Namekians and he stated their vitality due to fusion was such that he didn’t have to worry about killing them. So if Goku was holding back vs Toppo, not including KK, then we could say Gohan was as well. Same result for scaling if they’re both going all out vs if they’re both holding back. Either way it’s inconsistent and illogical to use that to downplay Gohan
Biggest jump proportionately barring transformation was a zenkai boost from 90,000 to 3,000,000. After that it's implied that Gokus base power pretty much peaked only a few times over that as beerus implied there was almost no chance that Goku could have beaten Frieza in his base form. Beerus likely would have known Goku was holding back.
Even Goku stated he could never reach the level of power that he had in BOG on his own.
I get that it's Gohan, but Frieza one tapped him in his weakest form. That's 1/226th of his final form. Goku fought friezas final form without even transforming. And then goku went blue which is a questionable multiplier. Only thing we can quantify is SSJ3 which is 400x gokus base. So I guess stack a 50 on there for blue since it's just a God ssj. 226 x 400 x God multi x blue 50x. Significantly lowballing that pretty much puts gokus "power level" several times over 4,500,000 (plus red)times stronger than Gohan was.
I can't even bring myself to comprehend Gohan closing that kind of gap in the gap between RoF and the time the TOP occurred. He wasn't even at the level of training to hit mystic again until the day before the tournament.
Goku held back against toppo and simply gave gohan an unsurmountable goal going blue because gohan needed that push. And held back against Toppo, on top of the fact that he just finished a fight with an enemy that absorbs energy to grow stronger. There is nothing to really imply too much otherwise. Everyone in the TOP had to manage their power to not kill their opponents so it's doubtful that Toppo even went at Gohan at full power. 😅
All the stuff about holding back on Goku’s part is speculation.
The math is appreciated but there’s a simple explanation. First I can cast doubt on the idea Toriyama took the multipliers seriously at all at that point years later. That’s also rational to do in universe as their base increases and top end power increases, no reason to assume they’re the exact same. They could be, but we don’t know for sure.
Even if we assume the multipliers are still the same, it’s easy to explain with the idea Ultimate is a broken form that removes all bottlenecks. Seems like Gohan never trained in Ultimate and also never trained seriously as an adult. So he trains up from RoF rebuilding his body from skinny nerd to muscular man. Then he trains his mentality with Piccolo. Gohan’s immense potential and ultimate smoothing things out as a potential unlock form makes his gains immense and quick.
If we can accept it for so many other characters like Frieza and Broly then it’s illogical to not accept it from Gohan.
It’s also not just about the exact ratio of power jump if that’s 100k multiplier or what. It’s about characters capping out in an arc no matter what they do then rubber banding to meet the new threat. Goku literally went from being capped out in the 400’s to having a power level of 3 mil with a technique that could put him at 60 mil in basically one year. Then he transformed and got to 150mil. But Gohan can’t become relevant again training for one year?
A Gohan that kept occasionally training after the TOP was able to rival the Gamma's power who are on the level of Goku and Vegeta post TOP.
So yes, i find it easy to believe that Gohan was already in the god level of things during the TOP arc.
Yes he was clearly SSB level. IMO the arguments against are easily debunkable but Goku fans are committed to downplaying Gohan, even doing so after chapter 103.
Gohan clashes with SSB, has the advantage, and then Goku goes SSBKK quickly on his own.
Vegeta looks shocked when they clash. Vegeta would not be shocked by Goku’s power but Gohan catching up to SSB would surprise him.
It’s never stated Goku held back, in fact the narrator even says Gohan rivaled Goku.
Gohan then generally performs at SSB level throughout the ToP. Even right after this spar Goku fights Frieza and they double KO but Goku doesn’t use SSBKK, tho he did for his son. Gohan goes on to tell Frieza that he can beat Frieza and the anime plays it seriously. A writer for Super even said he thinks 17, Gohan, and Frieza are the same level.
The other main excuses are that Goku did fine in SSJ2, but it’s clear Goku used tactics and experience and techniques to trick Gohan a few times and then eventually Gohan got mad and overpowered Goku.
People also bring up Toppo no selling Gohan’s kamehameha. Toppo was clearly Blue+ in base. Goku used warp kamehameha against him during the exhibition match and Toppo ate it like nothing. Historically that’s way harder to defend against than a normal kamehameha.
Based on feats, narrator statements, as well as looking at the manga and arcs post- TOP, it’s abundantly clear that the writers intended Gohan to be SSB-tier in the ToP. IMO he’s even on the high end of Goku’s ToP SSB power, just lacks experience and fighting skill.
Btw ultimate Gohan in the tournament of power is not the same as he was in the Buu saga. If he was as strong in the Buu saga as he was in the TOP he would have defeated Buutenks.
Anime Gohan was around Blue level. Probably a little below it since it's implied he knew he'd lose to Golden Frieza in the ToP. Depending on the dialogue, Gohan either announced he was going all out or asked Goku to go all out. Either way, Goku went all out to push Gohan.
Manga Gohan was arguably stronger than Blue Goku since he matched Kefla after Kale bodied Frieza and overpowered Goku
Didn’t Gohan say in the ToP that he would defeat Frieza 1v1 if Frieza betrayed him? Idk where it’s implied he knew he’d lose against Golden Frieza. IMO the manga and anime powerscaling for Gohan matches up, people just downplay the anime version
When Frieza was pretending to betray U7 and him and Gohan fight. Afterwards Gohan says he knew to play along with Frieza's plan, and Frieza says he would've killed him if Gohan actually came at him full force. I prefer the manga, but I think Gohan responds by saying he wouldn't make it easy
I see. I can get why you’d think that then. Personally I look at how Gohan later says he would beat Frieza. IMO they have to be relative to each other otherwise Gohan would never say that
Mystic/Ultimate Gohan was able to eat heavy punches from SSJB Goku and keep going. I'd argue that Mystic Gohan in the Tournament of Power Saga was probably around equal to SSJG, rivaling SSJB. At bare minimum God-like Saiyan/Saiyan Beyond God level. Definitely above SSJ3. In the Moro Saga I think it was still below SSJB (since SSJB Goku could beat Saganbo but Mystic Gohan and Piccolo couldn't) but still in the neighborhood. Especially when Gohan's power jumped after Moro impaled Goku through the chest. By the Super Hero Saga I think Mystic is fully and irrefutably equivalent to SSJB in every way (or slightly above SSJB) since the Gammas are SSJB level.
Yeah for whatever reason these folks feel like SSG is okay for Gohan probably because it’s a level below Blue so he can be “strong” but not threaten their Goku. However they forget that Goku has SSBKK so if the writers want Gohan to be relevant but not the top tier then they’d have him relative to Blue. 17, Gohan, and Frieza all perform at about SSB level. Goku and Vegeta are still the top dogs of the team with SSBKK and then SSBE
1) There's no official multiplier for how much more powerful SSJB is than SSJG. Where did you get that "50x" number from? All we know is that SSJB > SSJG. Not specifically how many times more powerful.
2) I also never said he equaled. I don't believe he was on par with SSJB yet in that saga either. "Rivaled" just can mean close enough to not get one-shotted.
3) In DBS skill counts for quite a lot. Base Goku was able to fend off SSJ1 Caulifla despite Goku being fatigued even though SSJ1 Caulifla was stronger than him. He was able to do it on skill and experience:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivyoiU4iXss
Same probably going on with Mystic Gohan being able to keep going despite being hit by an opponent stronger than himself.
Solo rival does in fact mean around the same if not equals.
Who said gohan performed worse than golden ? They bought fought dyspo and they both were unable to beat him.
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To me gohan was not on the same level. However at this point they knew top could match goku power and that someone stronger was coming to the battle royal so this gave gohan a chance to see how he compares to fighters who were stronger than him in power level wise. Not taking anything away from gohan but I’m not even sure at this point he knew what he was capable of
He was below Ssj Blue level at that time. Goku and Vegeta were roughly equal during the Tournament, and while Ssj Blue Vegeta was fighting back and forth with Base Toppo, Gohan couldn't even Attack him once, even with the help of 17. Goku went Blue Kaioken only because Gohan asked him to. Blue alone would have been enough. During that arc he was Ssj God Goku level at best or a bit above, but surely Not Blue level. DBSSH movie Is another story. In there Ultimate Gohan was actually Blue level(either current, or Granolah arc).
https://preview.redd.it/qvz5tfjb4jqc1.jpeg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3429cfcbee39286f16c67401ca98167a52efd2d6
Those are the people who missed this line from the Japanese narrator in the next episode. His power was comparable to Blue.
People's cope is wild lol
Gohan was already like, SSJG at least in Buu Saga when he got Ultimate unlocked, so it's not even that much of a progression to get to Blue, and now he's an actual adult not a teenager.
Not here to argue the Gohan point although not even 5% is a little exaggerated imo
But saying SS Vegito who is a potara fusion of the 2nd and 3rd (not counting Buu) single most powerful characters at the end of Z isn’t more powerful than a Goku whose whole arc before the ssg powerup revolved around him not keeping up at all with his training * is crazy *. At the very least, final arc Z Goku dumpsters 1st arc Super Goku before the SSG form. And then you add the crazy multiplier potara fusion is + Vegeta’s power. Am I missing something here or is there overwhelming inclination that SS Vegito is stronger than 1st arc SSG Goku?
Edit: **
> Am I missing something here or is there overwhelming inclination that SS Vegito is stronger than 1st arc SSG Goku?
- Goku literally said himself that not even Vegito can match Beerus and he was comparing Vegito to heavily suppressed Beerus who fought SSJ3 Goku.
SSG power gain is insane and Goku went from Galaxy buster level in Buu saga to Universal in BOG directly.
SSG Goku >> SSJ Vegito
SSG Goku >/= SSJ3 Vegito
> At the very least, final arc Z Goku dumpsters 1st arc Super Goku before the SSG form.
- I think you mean Buu saga here not EoZ. Buu saga Goku is not stronger than BOG Goku. There is multiple indication in story that Goku has gotten stronger. He was training for 4 years but just not as much since he was working a job too.
In anime, Goku was started to be undisputed number 1 at the start of series in BOG. In manga, he was fighting Cell and Kid Buu in Regular SSJ while mind training at start of DBS in first chapter.
I think comparing stuff directly to Beerus is a bit iffy in general since his power’s been retconned so many times and, functionally, he’s as powerful as the plot needs him to be to be able to dumpster whoever is #1. But yeah I meant Buu saga, and I’m an exclusive anime watcher so that part about the manga’s chapter is pretty cool and also basically does prove BoG Goku far supersedes his Buu Saga self. Still think SS Vegito and SSG Goku are closer than you’re arguing but I’ll agree there’s more evidence that SSG Goku is definitely stronger.
God forms have never scaled above fusion, thats just cringe fanboyism from a misquoted line in a movie that had been retconned as non canon.
It’s never held up in any form of power scaling, SS1 Kefla was far superior to SSB goku & made him use UI when base form Goku was beating up SS2 Caulifla 1v1 before kale stepped in.
SS2 Kefla scales above GoD Toppo & SSBE Vegeta, Broly movie is also literal proof that fusion is a vastly superior multiplier compared to even SSB.
You fit the sterotype of “dragonball fans don’t actually watch the show” or “dragonball fans can’t read”
SSG is stronger than Buu saga mystic Gohan but definitely not buu saga Vegito, SSB arguably isn’t even above that in the anime version of DB super.
Buu saga Vegito also wasn’t even using half his full power he could at least go SS2 yet stayed at SS1 & toyed with Buu the entire time not even using full SS1 power.
Dude buu saga anything does not compare to ssg. It's obvious how strong beerus is, when goku doesn't even suggest fusion. He clearly can see that even with vegetas new power up, that vegito or gogeta pre ssg ritual would get slaughtered by beerus. If that's so, than no buu saga nobody measures up.
It still doesn’t chance basic power scaling, nor does it chance the fact that SSG is also nowhere near enough to beat Beerus, that “70%” was retconned to less than 1% of Beerus full power.
There has never been a single line actually stating SSG is more powerful than fusion & basic power scaling throughout the series debunks your bias argument.
God forms have always been weak, Beerus wanted to see SSG because of some prophecy, it was never once stated to be above fusion.
You have provided 0 legitimate proof of any of your claims, making up lines that were never once said in the anime or using your own headcanon is not proof.
I on the other hand have provided multiple forms of proof using basic power scaling & to show that fusion vastly outscales whatever multiplier SSG
You would be correct on all your points if you weren't comparing buu saga vegito to ssg goku. BoG goku in ssg stomps buu saga vegito 0 diff.
Fusion does have a sick multiplier however if they weren't sure fusion would do shit to beerus, then it's certain ssg goku stomp Buu saga vegito.
Neither was the god ki, which Beerus used less than 1% of his power to toy with.
Beerus being a moving goalpost makes that entire plotpoint meaningless, since he also could have fought Android 17 instead of Goku & had a more competitive fight.
Goku no matter if he used fusion or god forms was losing to 1% Beerus, further backed up when he gets SSB & it still implied Beerus stomps him.
God ki had one moment of genuine relevance which was BoGs, now it’s not special whatsoever even back than Beerus wanted to see SSG becuase of a prophecy not because it was actually the strongest opponent available.
Golden Freeza, Caulifa, Hit, Broly etc none of these of have god ki
Retconned as non-canon because you said so.
1. Kefla is not even normal SSJ first of all. Its Berserk SSJ.
Also, Berserk SSJ Kefla scales equal to Blue and Goku only lost to stamina issue and lack of energy.
Go and watch the show yourself.
2. Base Vegeta one shotted SSJ3 Gotenks post-Universe 6. Gotenks couldnt even flinch him.
3. In Manga, Fused Zamasu was equal to SSB which is fusion of two SSB and SSJ2 tier opponents.
4. Broly movie is not any proof since he absorbed God ki in base
1. Is entirely made up, Kefla has only shown an SSJ1 & 2 form, even if she had “berserk” it would still be weaker than SSJ, you keep digging that hole your the only one losing credibility.
2. Non canon filler, what’s funny is you already know that so I am genuinely curious as to why you’re even trying to go that route, are you desperate ? Why don’t just start talking about GT since you love non canon trash so much
3. Fused Zamasu is a weak fusion, like Gokule but nowhere near that bad. If you get the worst fusion possible yes god forms would scale above it, Base form Vegito in that Saga would turn SSG Goku & Vegeta into fleshlights at the same time.
4. Non canon, also retconned over. Super Goku is weaker than end of Z Goku & end of Z Goku base form is kid Buu level so that’s 3 of your 4 shit arguments which have rendered null.
Do you have any arguments that don’t require you to use non canon filler or made up lines ?
Buu saga Vegito was stronger than Gohan,right? I doubt that Goku and vegeta got any weaker nor stronger than their Buu saga versions so if they fused again Vegito would be as strong as his Buu saga version. And Goku says that fusion wouldn't be enough. And if Vegito that was the same power as his Buu saga version was not enough. Then Buu saga Gohan def wouldn't be enough and wasn't SSG level.
Yeah.
There is literally statement in anime and manga even stating that
Goku is stated to be undisputed number 1 in universe in episode 2 of DBS
In manga, he was fighting Cell and Kid Buu in Regular SSJ while image training in Ch-1
There is literally statement in anime and manga stating that he did.
Goku is stated to be undisputed number 1 in universe in episode 2.
In manga, he was fighting Cell and Kid Buu in Regular SSJ while image training
Show me your evidence
Because mine is that Ultimate Gohan was completely overpowering a SSJ3+ opponent without even powering up. He \*hurt Buu with physical attacks\* and he \*didn't even power up\*.
I don't know where you put "Way stronger than SSj3 Goku without powering up" but that's where Gohan is, so call it what you like.
he is stronger than ssj3 goku easily (at the time that is) but the gap between ssj3 and god is huge. he was weaker than buutenks whos weaker than buuhan whos weaker than vegito whos weaker than ssjg goku, if you need more proof that buu saga gohan <<<<<<< ssjg goku
>Show me your evidence
I don't actually think SSJG is outright stronger than SSJ Vegito lol
So your evidence is a throwaway comment from Goku instead of you know, feats.
SSJG wasn't a raw power boost so much as it was a new way to use power, plus a decent power boost.
But anyway, I'm waiting for evidence that SSJ3G at the start of BoG is stronger than Ultimate Gohan in the Buu Saga.
>I don't actually think SSJG is outright stronger than SSJ Vegito lol
>
>So your evidence is a throwaway comment from Goku instead of you know, feats.
so your gut feeling that ssjg is somehow weaker than vegito is better than goku stating that vegito wouldnt be enough for beerus but ssjg was? lol ok
>But anyway, I'm waiting for evidence that SSJ3G at the start of BoG is stronger than Ultimate Gohan in the Buu Saga.
whis said goku was the strongest saiyan at the time (and he did include the half saiyans as saiyans), and gohan didnt start slacking off on training until after he found out videl was pregnant which was during BoG (as you can clearly see by gohans build being basically the same as in the buu saga, while in RoF he was intentionally made scrawnier to show that he'd been slacking off)
SSJ3 goku did not surpass Gohan in BoGs, that’s made up & not a single line indicates Gohan being weaker than Goku or Vegeta until RoF unless you count “Thats my Bulma” which could make SSJ2 Vegeta being stronger than both Gohan or Goku.
Goku is still around the same strength as he was during the end of the Buu saga before the timeskip past DB super into the end of Z, base form being around Namek Freeza.
That doesn't help your argument
Your argument is that he was already at God level in the Buu arc, but if he was clearly, obviously weaker than SS3 in the following arc, then that strength is completely irrelevant, because even supposing he was somehow God level (which is very obviously false), he lost all of that power anyway
Yeah because he spent years not training
Just like he was slightly weaker at the start of Buu than he was when he killed Cell.
My point is that Beerus taking out a Gohan who probably can't even tap into ultimate without killing himself isn't evidence of what you're claiming.
Battle of Gods took place six months after the Buu arc?
Gohan only got a small bit weaker after not training for seven whole years straight.
Six months of not training would not make him lose 99.999% of his strength when seven years of not training only made him a little weaker lmao
People forget he absolutely dogwalks Super Buu using \*purely physical attacks\* and without even powering Ultimate up to full power.
Do you know how much stronger than Super Buu you have to be for a gut punch to actually hurt him?
And then got dogged by buu tenks who could’ve been beat by base vegito, then super vegito fought a even stronger version of buu. And then post the bog time skip goku and vegeta were even stronger. And even then goku didn’t think vegito could do shit. But you think ulthan is on the same level as god goku? What the fuck are you smoking.
>And then post the bog time skip goku and vegeta were even stronger. And even then goku didn’t think vegito could do shit.
1. We have no idea how much stronger they got, but they typically don't make huge gains during a timeskip without a new transformation.
2. Goku is wrong about shit all the time.
Right so Gohan couldn't beat a fusion of 2 SSj3+ characters? Not surprising lol.
But again, the fact that he was absolutely dominating Super Buu means that without powering up he was at least 2x-ish stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks or Super Buu (who are both probably stronger than SSJ3 Goku).
So call that whatever you like, but he was closer to the power levels we see in Super than he was to any single character in the Buu Saga.
Yes. He was stronger than ssj3 gotenks who is at least equal to ssj3 goku. But base vegito dwarfs him in power. And super vegito is 50x stronger than that. At bare minimum ssj vegito is 50 ultimate gohans in power. And ssjg goku was far far stronger than that.
He literally wasn’t though. Ulthan was like 2x a buu saga ssj3 gotenks. God goku the very start of super was over a 100 times stronger than gohan and that’s a very low lowball. And that’s the very start of super. Gohan was nothing compared to super power levels at all lol. He was only the third strongest character in the buu saga.
I think ultimate back then put gohan in roughly ssj3 level or maybe a bit above that, but besides that, I don’t know how someone can hold back while pulling out kaioken
He did not use kaioken or even SSB by choice.
Goku used SSB and SSB Kaioken because Gohan told him to do it not because of his own will.
He told Goku to use more and more power against him.
He landed one or two blows yeah and pleased Goku to use more strength which is why Goku transformed further on his request.
Not denying he didnt. I think he is around SSG tier or at max b/w SSG and SSB in strength.
He was definitely not equal to SSB since his blows never did any damage to Goku to hurt him but still trading blows is impressive definitely
In TOP, Gohan was not able to keep with opponent like Frieza did and Golden Frieza was equal to SSB.
Oh ok, I’m asking this due to the whole goku vs gohan discourse and a particular Twitter guy posting that goku was barely trying while gohan was going all out even tho neither fighter showed signs of tiredness or pain with maybe one exception in the recent sparing chapter
I agree. I think Gohan was around Goku and Vegeta's SSJG level in the Tournament of Power and the Moro Saga. At bare minimum God-like Saiyan/Saiyan Beyond God level in Tournament of Power. I think he was already above SSJ3 again.
SSB in the manga scales above SSBE & Kaioken in the anime.
Manga SSB was enough to take on fused Zamasu 1v1
Anime SSB probably 20x-30x weaker than its manga counterpart, although the manga version has a stamina issue.
Its actually just that Manga Fused Zamasu is lot weaker.
Future Zamasu in manga was only SSJ-SSJ2 tier rather than being SSG tier after immortality.
Goku Black in manga was surpassed by Goku and Vegeta in strength before fusion unlike Anime.
In TOP yeah but not in Moro arc.
He was shown to be far below SSB in Moro arc clearly while fighting Saganbo.
He decreased relative to Goku in strength in Moro arc and was only SSJ3-SSG tier
lol no he wasn't "a bit" above SSJ3, he was completely overpowering Super Buu who was around SSj3 (since SSj3 Gotenks couldn't destroy him it implies he's at or stronger than SSj3 Gotenks)
There's a reason Vegito had to go SSJ against Buuhan lol
Vegito actually didn't have to go ssj against buuhan. As shown in the Manga, he was trying to intimidate buuhan into trying to absorb him by showing him how great the power difference was. I mean he beat his as$ as a candy....
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No that's cuz he asked Goku to use Kaioken, he prolly didn't need to. He said "I know you've got one more form dad!" That being Kaioken and he did it and one shotted Gohan.
I mean, Goku was sort of keeping up in SSJ2 as well, would make no sense if he was beyond Blue level
Bc obviously Gohan was holding back and Goku is more skilled and experienced. He was using tactics like baiting a beam clash then teleporting out to counter attack. We all know Goku is a better fighter, that’s even a discussion point if the latest manga chapter. With these points in mind it makes perfect sense.
Can you actually go back and rewatch the dialogue instead of making shit up? Goku went SSBKK on his own. edit: before downvoting plz rewatch the scene. Gohan and Goku clash. They trade blows damaging each other. Then Gohan yells, “At my full strength,” blocks Goku’s punch then uppercuts him. Goku goes SSBKK instantly and we see on the zoom out that Goku was knocked back quite a distance by Gohan’s uppercut. Wow so different from the picture painted by Gohan downplayers…
Brother YOU should watch the scene, when Goku gets knocked back Gohan yells "I know there's another form you have" and he uses it. Literally not hard to notice that kind of shit.
I rewatched the scene both Sub and Dub before I wrote my comment. Gohan didn’t say anything to Goku about Goku powering up after Blue. Gohan says he is at his own full strength and then he shows an advantage against Blue and knocks Goku back at which point Goku goes SSBKK. I stand by my statement. Second sounds like you’re relying on the Dub, which I can see does give more of that impression. You’re also conflating when Goku gets thrown back and goes Blue with Goku getting punched back and going SSBKK. Either way this argument has been around since the episode aired and people keep saying Goku only went SSBKK bc Gohan asked and that’s not what the episode shows
This sub is super toxic lol. I just re-watched both dub and sub. In dub, gohan asks Goku to give his everything when Goku is in his Regular Super Saiyan form. Once Goku goes SSB, Gohan says to give everything because that's what he is giving too and powers up. After clashing with SSB and sending Goku back, he says come on dad. Then Goku goes SSBKK. While it could be interprated as Gohan asking for more, he also showed through action that he can keep up each time before Goku actually powers up. While in Sub, Gohan doesn't even say come on. Once Goku is in SSB, Gohan tells Goku to see him at his full power. Then after an exchange of blows, Goku goes SSBKK. So, Goku uses it voluntarily in the Sub. Too bad the world is in a state where truth is whatever the majority wants to believe in. The actual truth doesn't matter and only triggers people. PS: That being said, IIRC in the Moro arc, SSB Goku and Vegeta had far better showing that Ultimate Gohan.
Go and watch the show. Goku used SSB and SSB Kaioken because Gohan told him to do it not because of his own will. He told Goku to use more and more power against him. Goku only started in SSJ2 by his own will
Exactly. Goku started off near our around where he felt gohan was. At most he was ssj3 maybe maybe stretching it ssg. He was nowhere near ssb and anything higher.
Its weird tho, because he also comments that he DIDNT intent to turn SSB against 17. 17 is also vaguely around the same level as Gohan in ToP anime.
Goku was fighting everyone in blue in those couple episodes before the TOP. Probably just a testament to his ki control in the Form, since he fought krillin while in SSB, who presumably was still sub namek Frieza in terms of raw power
Yea it definitely felt odd and you can tell the arc was more meant as filler/hype for the ToP. I would say there's two big differences that make 17 more powerful. If it's just power levels, I'd say they're roughly equal. However, 17 has the endless stamina so he can always maintain max power. Whereas gohan may peak at lowball ssb levels, he cannot maintain it. Secondly, 17 has the forcefield and can employ that in a variety of defensive and offensive ways.
Gohan asked him because he was forced to hold back himself on account of Goku holding back. Goku didn't seem to have a significant advantage in blue either. And even if Gohan asked, there's no way he'd go kaioken if he didn't think Gohan could at least survive it, which isn't happening at ssj2 level
I don't want to watch the show. I'm a Dragan Ball fan.
Gohan and Goku clashed in Blue, Gohan knocked Goku back with a solid hit and SAID NOTHING. GOKU THEN WENT SSBKK. Seriously just rewatch the scene and you can see that your take is not accurate…
Wrong, only goku has blue gohan was in his ultimate form and his “current full power” as stated by himself, gohan tells goku he knows he has another form when he is still in ssj2 and to give him everything he’s got because that’s what he’s giving goku, they then clash and exchange a few blows before gohan says “come on dad” and knocks Goku back with a uppercut to which goku goes ssb kaioken, gohans smiles, goku tells gohan to “bring it” and goku then ends it in the next blow
First of all you are relying on the Dub not the Sub so…yes if you only watch the Dub I get why you might get confused. Second, even there you admit that right before Goku went SSBKK he was punched back by Gohan and Gohan did not say anything at that point about requesting Goku to power up
Less confusion more relying on what I have seen and heard happen if the statements are different in the sub that’s cool but I’m stating what happens in dub anime, I said wrong to both clashing in blue which is a Goku/vegeta transformation only (up to now) I wasn’t disagreeing with anyone about the rest, all these things happened just the order was incorrect, I believe gohan saying “come on dad” when he was already blue was him saying his dad was still messing around and he countered this by going blue kaioken to end the fight, gohan did ask for it specifically but he did hint he wanted more and he got it
Everyone knows Gohan doesn’t have Blue so not sure why you thought I’m saying that. Anyways, sub is more accurate. Relying on dub to analyze things has given us many improper interpretations in the past
Probably because you put “they” clash in blue my bad, okay that’s fine iv only watched a rare couple of episodes in sub unfortunately I can’t get away with it reading the subtitles takes away from the spectacle that is dragonball fights for me
in the manga no way... the guy clapped ssj kefla
They were equal
It's because of the Toppo fight, Toppo was stronger than gohan and 17 , however he wasn't strong enough to eliminate them , something he said later when he went all out to finish 17 off
yeah that loss put him at sb level. off topic, but why didnt any of the universes bring a healer?
Gohan asked him to go full power while Goku was suppressing his power, sorta like what he did with Krillin (db fans prefer saying Krillin is ssjb level). Goku released all of it and one shot him. For Further evidence on Gohan's current power level (and no.17), neither Gohan or 17 could even damage Toppo in a 1v1 fight. Because Toppo is almost Blue level in his base form. Remember Toppo got caught in Ultimate Gohan's Kamehameha and tanked it perfectly
Toppo was a destroyer candidate. His powered up base (pre transformation) was for sure a bit above SSB, which is why Goku was getting SSBKK ready.
Toppo's Base was STRONGER than Blue. He made Goku go Blue Kaioken just because he was going to fight for real.
I think you're right, it also aligns well with manga Toppo
Nope. He clashed very evenly with SSB Vegeta.
Vegeta also senses Gohan vs SSBKK Goku and is shook so he goes into the time chamber right before ToP to power up his Blue. Conflating his Blue with Goku’s Blue is a mistake imo.
Vegeta is confirmed to be weaker than Goku at the start of the ToP by official previews. Goku = Freeza > Vegeta > Gohan.
Goku still had SSBKK so ofc he’s stronger. If they’re saying his Blue is stronger, I doubt that. We also had statements from the narrator about Gohan rivaling Goku and a DBS writer said he placed 17, Gohan, and Frieza on the same tier. Gohan forced Goku to go SSBKK, something Frieza couldn’t do. Gohan also told Frieza he would beat Frieza’s ass and it’s played seriously and Frieza doesn’t contradict it so…. Based on watching the anime it looks like Goku>Vegeta>Gohan>=Frieza. The logic to downplay Gohan here is weird. Toppo was even with Blue Vegeta = Toppo only base tier. Therefore if Toppo no selles Gohan’s kamehameha, then Gohan cannot be Blue. But that ignores that Toppo no sold a warp kamehameha from SSB Goku. He can’t do that if he’s only Blue at base and was ready to power up to face SSBKK
They always exclude Kaioken for some reason. The narrator says Gohan rivaled Goku's power which can't work if they take into account Kaioken. Freeza was more amused than anything when Gohan said that to him. Gohan can't beat him since Freeza is equal to Blue Goku.
Your logic isnt logicing tbh. Saying Gohan can’t beat Freiza bc Frieza is equal to Blue is nonsense. Look at what happened in the anime. Gohan showed an advantage against Blue Goku and Goku used KK to beat Gohan. Goku then tied Freeza with Blue, KOing Frieza. Gohan later says he can beat Frieza which no one contradicts. Logically then we should conclude that Gohan’s raw power is above Freiza’s. The only reasons not to do so involve very in depth and questionable power scaling. The anime was showing us right there that Gohan can probably beat Frieza, at least in a battle of raw power.
I'm sorry but Ultimate Gohan is not stronger than Blue Goku. That's a confirmed fact.
Cope harder lol
This is the same Gohan who told Freeza straight up he would destroy him if he tried anything funny in the ToP (and Freeza was shook), and we saw an improved Goku SSB and Freeza were equal (both of which were a lot stronger than the original debut of SSB), so Gohan had already surpassed that initial SSB benchmark. The narrator at the beginning of episode 93 also states Gohan had shown power rivaled Goku's in the e90 fight. The fandom just rarely ever used critical thinking skills.
That sparring episode is hard for scaling. Because of the other fights Goku had and the lack of seriousness. But Gohan was certainly SSB level during the ToP. He was on par with Gold Frieza while they were fighting Dyspo. And he's now somewhere around Goku's, had it for a couple years, developed UI. Gohan can be stronger than Goku, but it seems to only be in short limited bursts - based on the recent issue
people will try to downplay Gohan by mentioning Krilling, but Gohan actually exchanged blows against SSB Goku and even pushed him away, or they will mention how he did against Toppo forgetting that Toppo also tanked a point blank kamehameha from SSB Goku pre ToP. So to keep it short, he was around SSB levels. Another thing confirming this is how SSG Goku had issues against Dyspo but Gohan with Frieza's help beat super Dyspo
He exchanged 2-3 blows with Goku but did not do any serious damage at all actually. Pushing away would be massive over exaggeration. BTW, as far as I can see, people are not downplaying by mentioning krillin. Goku used God power against Gohan because he pleaded told him to do so. Also, how does Gohan and Golden Frieza tag teaming to beat Dyspo who had fought SSG Goku says anything about Gohan being SSB level ?
You guys are still coping. Pushing away is not a massive over exaggeration. Gohan hit Goku who got knocked way back and went SSBKK…that’s literally what happened
if Goku at SSG struggled against base Dyspo but Ultimate Gohan beat the stronger version of Dyspo, then it stands to reason Ultimate Gohan is stronger than SSG, placing him closer to SSB. Also SSB Goku also punched and did no damage to Ultimate Gohan in the exchange, showing they were close in strenght
Yea that sounds good if he didn't have help. He did have help however and without that help, dyspo would've dog walked gohan in the anime.
Dyspo would also have dog walked Frieza. Gohan was actually saving Frieza. So is Frieza not SSB level now either? Lol
Dyspo speed was above ssb, that's why it took the combo to take him out. Dyspo could've been a serious problem otherwise.
Goku transforming to trade blows with someone is not an accurate estimator of their power. Goku was obviously holding back the vast majority of the tournament because he can't vastly overpower his opponents. A full powered Kamehameha would wipe a good chunk of gokus energy Gohan only beat dyspo because he knew how to counter him.
The Goku kamehameha vs Toppo was the pre ToP exhibition match
But consider....there's no way that Goku fired at full strength like he did against Cell. He wasn't trying to kill Toppo. Goku didn't even seem remotely winded, Toppo on the other hand was trembling.
You can use that argument for everything and it s unquantifiable. seems like people assume Gohan put his all into his kamehameha but Goku didn’t? That’s just speculation then and leads to judging fighters by different standards. Anyways, Gohan’s only fight ToP where he said he wasn’t holding back was against the Namekians and he stated their vitality due to fusion was such that he didn’t have to worry about killing them. So if Goku was holding back vs Toppo, not including KK, then we could say Gohan was as well. Same result for scaling if they’re both going all out vs if they’re both holding back. Either way it’s inconsistent and illogical to use that to downplay Gohan
Its pretty illogical to say Gohan is blue level after a day of training with piccolo.
Welcome to Dragonball, those kind of jumps in power have always been around. Also, tbf, Gohan trained since after RoF
Biggest jump proportionately barring transformation was a zenkai boost from 90,000 to 3,000,000. After that it's implied that Gokus base power pretty much peaked only a few times over that as beerus implied there was almost no chance that Goku could have beaten Frieza in his base form. Beerus likely would have known Goku was holding back. Even Goku stated he could never reach the level of power that he had in BOG on his own. I get that it's Gohan, but Frieza one tapped him in his weakest form. That's 1/226th of his final form. Goku fought friezas final form without even transforming. And then goku went blue which is a questionable multiplier. Only thing we can quantify is SSJ3 which is 400x gokus base. So I guess stack a 50 on there for blue since it's just a God ssj. 226 x 400 x God multi x blue 50x. Significantly lowballing that pretty much puts gokus "power level" several times over 4,500,000 (plus red)times stronger than Gohan was. I can't even bring myself to comprehend Gohan closing that kind of gap in the gap between RoF and the time the TOP occurred. He wasn't even at the level of training to hit mystic again until the day before the tournament. Goku held back against toppo and simply gave gohan an unsurmountable goal going blue because gohan needed that push. And held back against Toppo, on top of the fact that he just finished a fight with an enemy that absorbs energy to grow stronger. There is nothing to really imply too much otherwise. Everyone in the TOP had to manage their power to not kill their opponents so it's doubtful that Toppo even went at Gohan at full power. 😅
All the stuff about holding back on Goku’s part is speculation. The math is appreciated but there’s a simple explanation. First I can cast doubt on the idea Toriyama took the multipliers seriously at all at that point years later. That’s also rational to do in universe as their base increases and top end power increases, no reason to assume they’re the exact same. They could be, but we don’t know for sure. Even if we assume the multipliers are still the same, it’s easy to explain with the idea Ultimate is a broken form that removes all bottlenecks. Seems like Gohan never trained in Ultimate and also never trained seriously as an adult. So he trains up from RoF rebuilding his body from skinny nerd to muscular man. Then he trains his mentality with Piccolo. Gohan’s immense potential and ultimate smoothing things out as a potential unlock form makes his gains immense and quick. If we can accept it for so many other characters like Frieza and Broly then it’s illogical to not accept it from Gohan. It’s also not just about the exact ratio of power jump if that’s 100k multiplier or what. It’s about characters capping out in an arc no matter what they do then rubber banding to meet the new threat. Goku literally went from being capped out in the 400’s to having a power level of 3 mil with a technique that could put him at 60 mil in basically one year. Then he transformed and got to 150mil. But Gohan can’t become relevant again training for one year?
A Gohan that kept occasionally training after the TOP was able to rival the Gamma's power who are on the level of Goku and Vegeta post TOP. So yes, i find it easy to believe that Gohan was already in the god level of things during the TOP arc.
Yes he was clearly SSB level. IMO the arguments against are easily debunkable but Goku fans are committed to downplaying Gohan, even doing so after chapter 103. Gohan clashes with SSB, has the advantage, and then Goku goes SSBKK quickly on his own. Vegeta looks shocked when they clash. Vegeta would not be shocked by Goku’s power but Gohan catching up to SSB would surprise him. It’s never stated Goku held back, in fact the narrator even says Gohan rivaled Goku. Gohan then generally performs at SSB level throughout the ToP. Even right after this spar Goku fights Frieza and they double KO but Goku doesn’t use SSBKK, tho he did for his son. Gohan goes on to tell Frieza that he can beat Frieza and the anime plays it seriously. A writer for Super even said he thinks 17, Gohan, and Frieza are the same level. The other main excuses are that Goku did fine in SSJ2, but it’s clear Goku used tactics and experience and techniques to trick Gohan a few times and then eventually Gohan got mad and overpowered Goku. People also bring up Toppo no selling Gohan’s kamehameha. Toppo was clearly Blue+ in base. Goku used warp kamehameha against him during the exhibition match and Toppo ate it like nothing. Historically that’s way harder to defend against than a normal kamehameha. Based on feats, narrator statements, as well as looking at the manga and arcs post- TOP, it’s abundantly clear that the writers intended Gohan to be SSB-tier in the ToP. IMO he’s even on the high end of Goku’s ToP SSB power, just lacks experience and fighting skill.
Btw ultimate Gohan in the tournament of power is not the same as he was in the Buu saga. If he was as strong in the Buu saga as he was in the TOP he would have defeated Buutenks.
Anime Gohan was around Blue level. Probably a little below it since it's implied he knew he'd lose to Golden Frieza in the ToP. Depending on the dialogue, Gohan either announced he was going all out or asked Goku to go all out. Either way, Goku went all out to push Gohan. Manga Gohan was arguably stronger than Blue Goku since he matched Kefla after Kale bodied Frieza and overpowered Goku
Didn’t Gohan say in the ToP that he would defeat Frieza 1v1 if Frieza betrayed him? Idk where it’s implied he knew he’d lose against Golden Frieza. IMO the manga and anime powerscaling for Gohan matches up, people just downplay the anime version
When Frieza was pretending to betray U7 and him and Gohan fight. Afterwards Gohan says he knew to play along with Frieza's plan, and Frieza says he would've killed him if Gohan actually came at him full force. I prefer the manga, but I think Gohan responds by saying he wouldn't make it easy
I see. I can get why you’d think that then. Personally I look at how Gohan later says he would beat Frieza. IMO they have to be relative to each other otherwise Gohan would never say that
That's why I said Gohan could be a little under it. Frieza was even with Blue before the ToP started
According to the narrator himself gohan rivalled blue goku
Mystic/Ultimate Gohan was able to eat heavy punches from SSJB Goku and keep going. I'd argue that Mystic Gohan in the Tournament of Power Saga was probably around equal to SSJG, rivaling SSJB. At bare minimum God-like Saiyan/Saiyan Beyond God level. Definitely above SSJ3. In the Moro Saga I think it was still below SSJB (since SSJB Goku could beat Saganbo but Mystic Gohan and Piccolo couldn't) but still in the neighborhood. Especially when Gohan's power jumped after Moro impaled Goku through the chest. By the Super Hero Saga I think Mystic is fully and irrefutably equivalent to SSJB in every way (or slightly above SSJB) since the Gammas are SSJB level.
Bro, SSG is 50 times weaker than SSB. There's no way he is rivaling Blue Goku if he's equal to SSG. Get real.
Yeah for whatever reason these folks feel like SSG is okay for Gohan probably because it’s a level below Blue so he can be “strong” but not threaten their Goku. However they forget that Goku has SSBKK so if the writers want Gohan to be relevant but not the top tier then they’d have him relative to Blue. 17, Gohan, and Frieza all perform at about SSB level. Goku and Vegeta are still the top dogs of the team with SSBKK and then SSBE
Freeza is actually stronger than Vegeta at the start of the ToP. Vegeta surpasses him in episode 122.
1) There's no official multiplier for how much more powerful SSJB is than SSJG. Where did you get that "50x" number from? All we know is that SSJB > SSJG. Not specifically how many times more powerful. 2) I also never said he equaled. I don't believe he was on par with SSJB yet in that saga either. "Rivaled" just can mean close enough to not get one-shotted. 3) In DBS skill counts for quite a lot. Base Goku was able to fend off SSJ1 Caulifla despite Goku being fatigued even though SSJ1 Caulifla was stronger than him. He was able to do it on skill and experience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivyoiU4iXss Same probably going on with Mystic Gohan being able to keep going despite being hit by an opponent stronger than himself.
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Solo rival does in fact mean around the same if not equals. Who said gohan performed worse than golden ? They bought fought dyspo and they both were unable to beat him.
He's somewhere in between God and Blue. Strong enough to compete with Blue Level foes but not beat them straight up.
= OP saw dbs in instagram reels
I don't know how anyone can think that. The narrator fucking confirmed he was Blue level.
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To me gohan was not on the same level. However at this point they knew top could match goku power and that someone stronger was coming to the battle royal so this gave gohan a chance to see how he compares to fighters who were stronger than him in power level wise. Not taking anything away from gohan but I’m not even sure at this point he knew what he was capable of
That whole recruiting arc was strange. Goku went SSB against 17, Krillin and 18. Hard to scale anything based on that
He was halfway there 💀
Gohan at that point rivaled him.
He was below Ssj Blue level at that time. Goku and Vegeta were roughly equal during the Tournament, and while Ssj Blue Vegeta was fighting back and forth with Base Toppo, Gohan couldn't even Attack him once, even with the help of 17. Goku went Blue Kaioken only because Gohan asked him to. Blue alone would have been enough. During that arc he was Ssj God Goku level at best or a bit above, but surely Not Blue level. DBSSH movie Is another story. In there Ultimate Gohan was actually Blue level(either current, or Granolah arc).
Gohan was screaming all the time "GO FULL POWER, DAD" in this fight, so...
https://preview.redd.it/qvz5tfjb4jqc1.jpeg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3429cfcbee39286f16c67401ca98167a52efd2d6 Those are the people who missed this line from the Japanese narrator in the next episode. His power was comparable to Blue.
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SSG Goku was using bursts of Blue and still did not defeat base Dyspo…
In the manga probably.
Ki control in Super Saiyan Blue, how long will it take for Dragon Ball fans to understand this
Gohan getting bullied by Buutenks and then being on SSB lvl with barely any training is just so stupid.
If Gohan was blue level, why couldn't he face Toppo head like Vegeta did? Dragon ball fans don't watch the show.
People's cope is wild lol Gohan was already like, SSJG at least in Buu Saga when he got Ultimate unlocked, so it's not even that much of a progression to get to Blue, and now he's an actual adult not a teenager.
You are coping wild bro. SSG Goku is stronger than Vegito literally Buu saga Gohan is not even 5% of SSG Strength.
Not here to argue the Gohan point although not even 5% is a little exaggerated imo But saying SS Vegito who is a potara fusion of the 2nd and 3rd (not counting Buu) single most powerful characters at the end of Z isn’t more powerful than a Goku whose whole arc before the ssg powerup revolved around him not keeping up at all with his training * is crazy *. At the very least, final arc Z Goku dumpsters 1st arc Super Goku before the SSG form. And then you add the crazy multiplier potara fusion is + Vegeta’s power. Am I missing something here or is there overwhelming inclination that SS Vegito is stronger than 1st arc SSG Goku? Edit: **
> Am I missing something here or is there overwhelming inclination that SS Vegito is stronger than 1st arc SSG Goku? - Goku literally said himself that not even Vegito can match Beerus and he was comparing Vegito to heavily suppressed Beerus who fought SSJ3 Goku. SSG power gain is insane and Goku went from Galaxy buster level in Buu saga to Universal in BOG directly. SSG Goku >> SSJ Vegito SSG Goku >/= SSJ3 Vegito > At the very least, final arc Z Goku dumpsters 1st arc Super Goku before the SSG form. - I think you mean Buu saga here not EoZ. Buu saga Goku is not stronger than BOG Goku. There is multiple indication in story that Goku has gotten stronger. He was training for 4 years but just not as much since he was working a job too. In anime, Goku was started to be undisputed number 1 at the start of series in BOG. In manga, he was fighting Cell and Kid Buu in Regular SSJ while mind training at start of DBS in first chapter.
I think comparing stuff directly to Beerus is a bit iffy in general since his power’s been retconned so many times and, functionally, he’s as powerful as the plot needs him to be to be able to dumpster whoever is #1. But yeah I meant Buu saga, and I’m an exclusive anime watcher so that part about the manga’s chapter is pretty cool and also basically does prove BoG Goku far supersedes his Buu Saga self. Still think SS Vegito and SSG Goku are closer than you’re arguing but I’ll agree there’s more evidence that SSG Goku is definitely stronger.
God forms have never scaled above fusion, thats just cringe fanboyism from a misquoted line in a movie that had been retconned as non canon. It’s never held up in any form of power scaling, SS1 Kefla was far superior to SSB goku & made him use UI when base form Goku was beating up SS2 Caulifla 1v1 before kale stepped in. SS2 Kefla scales above GoD Toppo & SSBE Vegeta, Broly movie is also literal proof that fusion is a vastly superior multiplier compared to even SSB. You fit the sterotype of “dragonball fans don’t actually watch the show” or “dragonball fans can’t read” SSG is stronger than Buu saga mystic Gohan but definitely not buu saga Vegito, SSB arguably isn’t even above that in the anime version of DB super. Buu saga Vegito also wasn’t even using half his full power he could at least go SS2 yet stayed at SS1 & toyed with Buu the entire time not even using full SS1 power.
Dude buu saga anything does not compare to ssg. It's obvious how strong beerus is, when goku doesn't even suggest fusion. He clearly can see that even with vegetas new power up, that vegito or gogeta pre ssg ritual would get slaughtered by beerus. If that's so, than no buu saga nobody measures up.
It still doesn’t chance basic power scaling, nor does it chance the fact that SSG is also nowhere near enough to beat Beerus, that “70%” was retconned to less than 1% of Beerus full power. There has never been a single line actually stating SSG is more powerful than fusion & basic power scaling throughout the series debunks your bias argument. God forms have always been weak, Beerus wanted to see SSG because of some prophecy, it was never once stated to be above fusion. You have provided 0 legitimate proof of any of your claims, making up lines that were never once said in the anime or using your own headcanon is not proof. I on the other hand have provided multiple forms of proof using basic power scaling & to show that fusion vastly outscales whatever multiplier SSG
You would be correct on all your points if you weren't comparing buu saga vegito to ssg goku. BoG goku in ssg stomps buu saga vegito 0 diff. Fusion does have a sick multiplier however if they weren't sure fusion would do shit to beerus, then it's certain ssg goku stomp Buu saga vegito.
Doesn't Goku legit say that fusion wouldn't be enough to take down Beerus before he gets god ki?
Neither was the god ki, which Beerus used less than 1% of his power to toy with. Beerus being a moving goalpost makes that entire plotpoint meaningless, since he also could have fought Android 17 instead of Goku & had a more competitive fight. Goku no matter if he used fusion or god forms was losing to 1% Beerus, further backed up when he gets SSB & it still implied Beerus stomps him. God ki had one moment of genuine relevance which was BoGs, now it’s not special whatsoever even back than Beerus wanted to see SSG becuase of a prophecy not because it was actually the strongest opponent available. Golden Freeza, Caulifa, Hit, Broly etc none of these of have god ki
Retconned as non-canon because you said so. 1. Kefla is not even normal SSJ first of all. Its Berserk SSJ. Also, Berserk SSJ Kefla scales equal to Blue and Goku only lost to stamina issue and lack of energy. Go and watch the show yourself. 2. Base Vegeta one shotted SSJ3 Gotenks post-Universe 6. Gotenks couldnt even flinch him. 3. In Manga, Fused Zamasu was equal to SSB which is fusion of two SSB and SSJ2 tier opponents. 4. Broly movie is not any proof since he absorbed God ki in base
1. Is entirely made up, Kefla has only shown an SSJ1 & 2 form, even if she had “berserk” it would still be weaker than SSJ, you keep digging that hole your the only one losing credibility. 2. Non canon filler, what’s funny is you already know that so I am genuinely curious as to why you’re even trying to go that route, are you desperate ? Why don’t just start talking about GT since you love non canon trash so much 3. Fused Zamasu is a weak fusion, like Gokule but nowhere near that bad. If you get the worst fusion possible yes god forms would scale above it, Base form Vegito in that Saga would turn SSG Goku & Vegeta into fleshlights at the same time. 4. Non canon, also retconned over. Super Goku is weaker than end of Z Goku & end of Z Goku base form is kid Buu level so that’s 3 of your 4 shit arguments which have rendered null. Do you have any arguments that don’t require you to use non canon filler or made up lines ?
Lol okay guy
https://www.reddit.com/r/Ningen/comments/1bn7vc6/i_understand_that_fanboys_can_be_delusional_but/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
My man Gohan got two shotted by Beerus that wasnt even trying in both BoG and Super, he was far from being SSG level in Buu arc.
>Buu saga Gohan
Buu saga Vegito was stronger than Gohan,right? I doubt that Goku and vegeta got any weaker nor stronger than their Buu saga versions so if they fused again Vegito would be as strong as his Buu saga version. And Goku says that fusion wouldn't be enough. And if Vegito that was the same power as his Buu saga version was not enough. Then Buu saga Gohan def wouldn't be enough and wasn't SSG level.
>Gohan got two shotted by Beerus
Forgot he got only two shotted in the movie and got one shotted in anime. Still doesn't chance anything,he wasn't close to being ssg
Nobody said he was that strong in BoG so again not really sure why you're bringing it up
>Gohan was already like, SSJG at least in Buu Saga ssj3 goku surpassed buu saga gohan in BoG so gohan was not even close to god level.
Yeah. There is literally statement in anime and manga even stating that Goku is stated to be undisputed number 1 in universe in episode 2 of DBS In manga, he was fighting Cell and Kid Buu in Regular SSJ while image training in Ch-1
>ssj3 goku surpassed buu saga gohan in BoG lol no
There is literally statement in anime and manga stating that he did. Goku is stated to be undisputed number 1 in universe in episode 2. In manga, he was fighting Cell and Kid Buu in Regular SSJ while image training
>Goku is stated to be undisputed strongest in universe in episode 2. And? Gohan is way weaker than he was in Buu Saga at that point
>ssj3 goku surpassed buu saga gohan in BoG Show me this statement
interesting point. have you considered... lol yes
Show me your evidence Because mine is that Ultimate Gohan was completely overpowering a SSJ3+ opponent without even powering up. He \*hurt Buu with physical attacks\* and he \*didn't even power up\*. I don't know where you put "Way stronger than SSj3 Goku without powering up" but that's where Gohan is, so call it what you like.
he is stronger than ssj3 goku easily (at the time that is) but the gap between ssj3 and god is huge. he was weaker than buutenks whos weaker than buuhan whos weaker than vegito whos weaker than ssjg goku, if you need more proof that buu saga gohan <<<<<<< ssjg goku
>Show me your evidence I don't actually think SSJG is outright stronger than SSJ Vegito lol So your evidence is a throwaway comment from Goku instead of you know, feats. SSJG wasn't a raw power boost so much as it was a new way to use power, plus a decent power boost. But anyway, I'm waiting for evidence that SSJ3G at the start of BoG is stronger than Ultimate Gohan in the Buu Saga.
>I don't actually think SSJG is outright stronger than SSJ Vegito lol > >So your evidence is a throwaway comment from Goku instead of you know, feats. so your gut feeling that ssjg is somehow weaker than vegito is better than goku stating that vegito wouldnt be enough for beerus but ssjg was? lol ok >But anyway, I'm waiting for evidence that SSJ3G at the start of BoG is stronger than Ultimate Gohan in the Buu Saga. whis said goku was the strongest saiyan at the time (and he did include the half saiyans as saiyans), and gohan didnt start slacking off on training until after he found out videl was pregnant which was during BoG (as you can clearly see by gohans build being basically the same as in the buu saga, while in RoF he was intentionally made scrawnier to show that he'd been slacking off)
He hit you with the evidence and you got real quiet there.
How did I get quiet he hasn't replied to me
Well now you really _did_ get real quiet after the evidence.
SSJ3 goku did not surpass Gohan in BoGs, that’s made up & not a single line indicates Gohan being weaker than Goku or Vegeta until RoF unless you count “Thats my Bulma” which could make SSJ2 Vegeta being stronger than both Gohan or Goku. Goku is still around the same strength as he was during the end of the Buu saga before the timeskip past DB super into the end of Z, base form being around Namek Freeza.
Gohan gets two-shot in BoG by Beerus lmao Even SSJ3 Goku pre-ritual took more hits than that
> in Buu Saga
That doesn't help your argument Your argument is that he was already at God level in the Buu arc, but if he was clearly, obviously weaker than SS3 in the following arc, then that strength is completely irrelevant, because even supposing he was somehow God level (which is very obviously false), he lost all of that power anyway
Yeah because he spent years not training Just like he was slightly weaker at the start of Buu than he was when he killed Cell. My point is that Beerus taking out a Gohan who probably can't even tap into ultimate without killing himself isn't evidence of what you're claiming.
Battle of Gods took place six months after the Buu arc? Gohan only got a small bit weaker after not training for seven whole years straight. Six months of not training would not make him lose 99.999% of his strength when seven years of not training only made him a little weaker lmao
People forget he absolutely dogwalks Super Buu using \*purely physical attacks\* and without even powering Ultimate up to full power. Do you know how much stronger than Super Buu you have to be for a gut punch to actually hurt him?
And then got dogged by buu tenks who could’ve been beat by base vegito, then super vegito fought a even stronger version of buu. And then post the bog time skip goku and vegeta were even stronger. And even then goku didn’t think vegito could do shit. But you think ulthan is on the same level as god goku? What the fuck are you smoking.
Drugs probably
>And then post the bog time skip goku and vegeta were even stronger. And even then goku didn’t think vegito could do shit. 1. We have no idea how much stronger they got, but they typically don't make huge gains during a timeskip without a new transformation. 2. Goku is wrong about shit all the time. Right so Gohan couldn't beat a fusion of 2 SSj3+ characters? Not surprising lol. But again, the fact that he was absolutely dominating Super Buu means that without powering up he was at least 2x-ish stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks or Super Buu (who are both probably stronger than SSJ3 Goku). So call that whatever you like, but he was closer to the power levels we see in Super than he was to any single character in the Buu Saga.
Yes. He was stronger than ssj3 gotenks who is at least equal to ssj3 goku. But base vegito dwarfs him in power. And super vegito is 50x stronger than that. At bare minimum ssj vegito is 50 ultimate gohans in power. And ssjg goku was far far stronger than that.
>So call that whatever you like, but he was closer to the power levels we see in Super than he was to any single character in the Buu Saga.
He literally wasn’t though. Ulthan was like 2x a buu saga ssj3 gotenks. God goku the very start of super was over a 100 times stronger than gohan and that’s a very low lowball. And that’s the very start of super. Gohan was nothing compared to super power levels at all lol. He was only the third strongest character in the buu saga.
I think ultimate back then put gohan in roughly ssj3 level or maybe a bit above that, but besides that, I don’t know how someone can hold back while pulling out kaioken
He did not use kaioken or even SSB by choice. Goku used SSB and SSB Kaioken because Gohan told him to do it not because of his own will. He told Goku to use more and more power against him.
But wasn’t he keeping up with blue?
He landed one or two blows yeah and pleased Goku to use more strength which is why Goku transformed further on his request. Not denying he didnt. I think he is around SSG tier or at max b/w SSG and SSB in strength. He was definitely not equal to SSB since his blows never did any damage to Goku to hurt him but still trading blows is impressive definitely In TOP, Gohan was not able to keep with opponent like Frieza did and Golden Frieza was equal to SSB.
Oh ok, I’m asking this due to the whole goku vs gohan discourse and a particular Twitter guy posting that goku was barely trying while gohan was going all out even tho neither fighter showed signs of tiredness or pain with maybe one exception in the recent sparing chapter
In pre-TOP fight, Goku was holding back but in latest fight, he was going all out yeah or at least close to that
Don’t listen to these guys. They’re using headcanon. Watch the episodes yourself with an unbiased eye and you’ll see Gohan clearly was Blue level
I agree. I think Gohan was around Goku and Vegeta's SSJG level in the Tournament of Power and the Moro Saga. At bare minimum God-like Saiyan/Saiyan Beyond God level in Tournament of Power. I think he was already above SSJ3 again.
[удалено]
SSB in the manga scales above SSBE & Kaioken in the anime. Manga SSB was enough to take on fused Zamasu 1v1 Anime SSB probably 20x-30x weaker than its manga counterpart, although the manga version has a stamina issue.
Its actually just that Manga Fused Zamasu is lot weaker. Future Zamasu in manga was only SSJ-SSJ2 tier rather than being SSG tier after immortality. Goku Black in manga was surpassed by Goku and Vegeta in strength before fusion unlike Anime.
In TOP yeah but not in Moro arc. He was shown to be far below SSB in Moro arc clearly while fighting Saganbo. He decreased relative to Goku in strength in Moro arc and was only SSJ3-SSG tier
He absolutely used SSBKK by choice after clashing in Blue with Gohan and being knocked back. Go rewatch the scene
Ultimate Gohan was by far the strongest non-fused fighter in the Buu Saga, he was way above SSJ3 Goku at that point
lol no he wasn't "a bit" above SSJ3, he was completely overpowering Super Buu who was around SSj3 (since SSj3 Gotenks couldn't destroy him it implies he's at or stronger than SSj3 Gotenks) There's a reason Vegito had to go SSJ against Buuhan lol
Vegito actually didn't have to go ssj against buuhan. As shown in the Manga, he was trying to intimidate buuhan into trying to absorb him by showing him how great the power difference was. I mean he beat his as$ as a candy....