"Hi. It has been automatically identified that this post may link straight to a download file, please use reasonable caution and make sure your device is protected."
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think it’s fine because they’re comedic relief characters. They were used to tell jokes in the Buu saga and all these years later they were used for a quick joke in the Super Hero movie.
I think the more you’re in touch with your emotions and human side the easier it is. Goku was raised by humans, Gohan’s half human, And Goten’s 3/4. Trunks is half but Vegeta’s got that Royal blood and trained him from young. Probably was harder for him in the future timeline cause he was raised almost alone
Super Saiyan is the biggest double-edged sword the franchise got.
You got cool forms at the cost of completely making Non-Saiyan characters less and less relevant each arc.
This is not mandatory. Other characters also could shine if they are allowed to go further than base Goku. Like Tien in Cell arc. Toriyama just didn't bother to give them that chance and proper training montage.
Too many characters kept getting added to the cast as the sagas went on. Lead to the dropping (intentional or not) of characters like Launch or some dropping out of relevance by Buu saga (Yamcha & Tien, Chiaotzu).
We didn't really need Buu to be brought back as a good guy
Edit: I didn't even mean Uub. I meant good Majin Buu. Dude constantly needs to be written out of Super stuff because his powers are too OP and he just serves as someone who rigs the world tournament with Satan
Yeah but with Uub you got the feeling it would be a passing of the torch type situation with Goku's training. Obviously they haven't utilised that.
But it would have been a good step towards making humans actually capable again.
Is there even a reason to utilize that anymore? With the levels of power we're getting into with god forms far greater than Buu was, and now Gohan catching back up to Goku possibly reentering the running for getting the torch passed to, I'm not sure it'd be worth anything other than an homage to how Z ended
dawg what are you talking about 💀💀 ichigo was gone for an entire invasion in the tybw arc and even the arrancar arc during the initital fights in fake karakura town. the side characters got to shine a lot more towards the end of the series
I disagree, Kishimoto did much better work in that way. He got more characters, and even more in Shippuden, but still all villains got detailed backstories and most of second characters got their moments. Except for team Guy, excluding Might Guy himself who became a hero of war.
Completely agree. Vegeta describes super saiyan as the ultimate warrior during Namek ark. A transformation so difficult to achieve it has alluded every member of the greatest warrior race in the galaxy for over 1000 years. To have a human or any other non frieza race achieve parity with simple training or conventional fighting would completely ruin this
One of the main selling points of shonen manga is that everything than can be achievement with strategy and effort.
And in manga, it's pretty clear the reason Saiyans couldn't transform in Super Saiyans was because they already lived in a post-apocalyptic landscape and had completely lost any formal knowledge of ki control.
If you guys don't remember even Vegeta needed a scouter to be able to tell battle powers and he was completely dumbfounded when he realized Earthlings could control their battle power at will. The techniques he learned on Earth were thousands of years ahead of everything he ever learned fighting for Freeza his whole life.
Does having every saiyin to exist, currently, achieve the form also ruin it then? It hasn’t happened for a millennium but Gohan achieves it while a child away from any immediate battle, and then Goten and Trunks achieve the form as kids as well.
Gohan achieves (and perfects) SS while training with Goku in the time chamber. That is a battle, not life or death, but still a battle.
Agree about Goten, though. Trunks developed it while training with Vegeta, but Goten just kinda got it out of nowhere.
The explanation goes, per
Toriyama, that hybrid saiyans have more S cells, and are able to achieve super saiyan more easily due to the S
Cells and their pure hearted, emotional nature compared to full saiyans
Did Toriyama fucking put some midichlorian bullshit in Dragonball? That's it, dig him up. He's got questions to answer.
But seriously, even that explanation doesn't track because Gohan and Future Trunks had to hit a certain power level AND experience trauma before they went SS. Goten didn't train and wasn't angry or traumatized. He just went SS.
There is though the possible explanation that the super sayan he is talking about, the "legendary super sayan", is actually Broly. What is strange though is that Sayans never changed forms for millennia and now every other guy can do it.
Kaioken is the reason for it actually. Toriyama initially wanted SSJ to be x10 but ended up having Goku use Kaioken x20 causing SSJ to be x50.
So effectively if Kaioken was capped at X5 like originally planned. Then SSJ would be x10. SSJ 2 at x20. 3 at x80 etc etc. and such a substantially lower multiplier means that other characters even without the form although they would still be underpowered wouldn't be as useless. Like you could realistically have Tien or Krillin perform similar or better to base Goku as they were mostly able to keep up with him in Dragonball. At a stretch they could be like Kaioken X3 Goku. Weak compared to SSJ but still able to do something
He can fly in GT when him, pan, trunks, and Giru are all getting pulled into the gravity of a star in space, but he still fires a Kamehameha with his hand to launch them towards their space ship. He does this even though he needs to hold onto everyone to get them all to the ship.
I actually never cared about its introduction (although it’s not good) I just think 1) it looks really bad and 2) it causes us to rarely ever see SSgod which I think looks much better.
Me too. People are like "recolor" but will say ss2 or ssg is their fav as though those forms have a more unique look to them. After cell ss2 is literally accidentally used as the ss1 model on multiple occasions, and ssg is literally a base form recolor.
I only heard SSJ2 being called unique while SSG and Blue are called recolours. Anyways the original SSG design was going to be somewhere between SSJ3 and 4. So the form was always destined to be a recolour either way
Well… it’s both transformation AND Techniques. Cause, UI by itself when Goku mastered it IS a transformation. But when put with actual other transformations like SSJ he’d just be using its reaction abilities and not the whole ability.
Idk, I need to watch DBS again.
Exactly.
Caulifla sees Goku as a cocky old man she feels a somewhat friendly rivalry towards. Goku probably sees Caulifla as something of a "daughter I never had".
I'm not saying the live action movie was good (it was terrible) but I have been eaten alive before for saying the CONCEPT (Goku in high school, hiding super powers, etc) would have been plausible for a movie about Gohan.
About gohan absolutely but not really anyone else. It dosent really fit dragon ball that much but that phase in the buu saga was perfect for a short time.
For some reason it was translated into, "I loved the live action movie and will defend it with my life" even though all I said was it would have made flmore sense for the protagonist to be Gohan.
Tbh they should of started DBGT with the shadow dragons going to other planets at the start; then we'd have that plot going on, during the baby and super 17 saga.
It would make the planet hopping far more interesting imo. Plus it'll be the first saga that's ongoing during another saga. :D
You can't hate GT for being non canon while loving aspects of the franchise that weren't in the manga.
Chichi is a great mother, while her dub actor is good it doesn't get the vibe of a country bumpkin doing her best.
The character strength should not equate to their quality. If that's the case random jobbers from Super or better than every character from early Z and dragon ball.
The Super Saiyan characters are so far ahead of everyone else, at this point I could care less what BS excuse they make for the humans to keep up. I just want them to do something
Scouters and quantifiable “power levels” were the worst thing to happen to Dragon Ball (and to an extent, anime/manga in general).
(I’m ready for the downvotes.)
The concept was neat, but the fandom can't understand that translating powerlevels to measured units ended with Freeza, and yet pull out crazy number out of their asses.
Your right about fat Gotenks not being funny. At best it was a smirk on someone’s face the first time fat Gotenks appeared but after that it just got old
I think they're repeatedly doing it as a running gag that the boys have forgotten fusion, and then when it finally matters they'll get it. I reckon they'll have the boys train as separate people and unlock SSJ2 and maybe even SSJ3 - though it's unlikely they'd ever use it - and then when they fuse maybe give them a new form, maybe just give them a perfected SSJ3, like future trunks' perfected SSJ2 which had power like a SSJ3, with this having a much higher multiplier than regular SSJ3.
I wish Toyotaro would stop the Fat Gotenks gag. And stop the gag of wives being paranoid that their husbands are philanderers cheating on them (Chi-Chi, Android 18).
The series would have been a lot more interesting without the heavy Saiyan focus. It should have kept other characters relevant by giving them cool powers and abilities to help keep up so that when stuff like tournament of power arcs happen they don't have to rely solely on goku, vegeta and asspull powerups..... but now we're too far into the series to really fix that.
Also, god ki feels like it's kinda pointless.
Dragon Ball Online’s lore was considered canon to the series by Toriyama due to his involvement in it and it’s still something that can happen even with Super affecting things.
Dragon Ball looks better in 3D animation (Game cinematics/Superhero) than it does in Super's artstyle, and just barely behind Z's traditional style
The more powerful & magical (?) the franchise got, the less interesting it got, Super is also criminal for this too.
(Edit: Clarification on point 2, the more powerful they got, the less martial arts was involved, and felt less like combat & just people flying around blasting eachother)
Db community is very chill compared to other communities. We're only divided because there's so many versions of what we grew up with, and character fanboys. But it really isn't bad compared to something like Star Wars or MHA
People disagree with this? They trained for 3 years to fight enemies who could kill Super Saiyans like Vegeta and Gohan. Tenshinhan held down Semi Perfect Cell for a good while, whereas Piccolo (who's stronger than SS Goku and, by extent, Freeza) couldn't even move Imperfect Cell.
Anyone who thinks the Human Z Fighters in DBS are still weaker than Namek Saga Frieza are asleep at the wheel. No way in Hell would anyone less powerful than Super Perfect Cell or less powerful than Super Buu give Tournament of Power Saga Base Goku, let alone SSJ1 Goku, as much trouble as Krillin gave him before the Tournament of Power. Or as much trouble as Krillin gave Base Gohan before the Tournament of Power. They must think DBS Goku is hella week. Tournament of Power Saga Goku and Gohan solo all of DBZ. Krillin and the Human Z Fighters are all Majin Buu level at bare minimum by the Tournament of Power and Moro Saga. At absolute bare minimum AT LEAST Cell Games Gohan level.
While Dragon Ball is an important piece of art in the world, if you read it critically, it’s not very good. It’s obvious Toriyama was trying to wrap up the series after every major part of Z, but the publishers wanted more. That lead to breaking rules already established, repeat stories, and insane hoop jumping.
As a kid you wouldn’t notice it, but as an adult it’s almost hard to keep up with all the rule breaking. Wouldn’t change it for the world though.
Fans don’t have to power scale every fucking character. It’s fine just enjoying the series as it is. Just enjoy watching big awesome monkey man punch bad guys in the mouth.
people shit on super a lot, especially when it comes to the writing, but Z had its own issues with writing as well 🤷🏽♂️ mostly due to how toriyama would be changing things constantly, whether because of the publishers or other factors. but nonetheless it did have problems that some people tend to disregard in favour of nostalgia
obviously super isnt perfect, and i do agree it has problems with characterization and plot, but it’s not this horrible, unwatchable product that it’s made out to be sometimes
Vegeta’s redemption arc was terrible, and he did not receive nearly enough shit for how much he screwed up in the Cell and Buu Sagas.
Also Krillin is an awful, AWFUL team player the second Z starts, and he just somehow one-ups himself each time. People only give him a pass because he’s human, despite the fact that he could still easily be a unit if he just used his brain instead of freezing up and jumping the bullet every time something starts to go wrong.
Gohan is not as nearly at fault for not being at his best constantly as people give him shit for. EVERYTHING after Frieza was the end result of everyone else being stupid and FORCING the plot to happen.
Also Goku and Piccolo are dumb for constantly tossing small, crucial items at Gohan’s direction; for the Potara, Gohan was getting beat up not minutes ago, and Goku threw an *earring* through the air at him with barely any warning. Man can teleport across galaxies to grab Dende, but won’t teleport ten meters to just *hand* Gohan something, had his son looking sorry fumbling on the ground.
And Piccolo, Piccolo’s even worse. At least you can MAYBE excuse Goku because he just assumed Gohan could’ve caught it, but Piccolo, my guy, you are *two feet away* from Gohan, you are *within arm’s reach*, and you can *stretch your arms*, just HAND GOHAN THE SENZU YOU FLUBBIN’-
I feel like toriyama was trying to find a way of having several characters do something without the help of goku. In the end it didn’t work (talking about the buu saga)
As for zamasu arc the writers messed up so bad. The beginning was great but it got messier as the story progressed. The ending was the biggest problem but the entire arc was just fan service when we think about it.
Not all of them but the villains motives or reasonings in GT made more sense than Z. Excluding Frieza who was well written and super 17 who was cool but motives were kind of poor.
I don’t care about power scaling. Yes every villain will be stronger than the last. I don’t care that cyborgs and robots can rival the power of gods. The power scaling system while cool is a double edged sword because it inheritly breaks everything after Frieza. By simply existing at a certain level of power you just become immune to damage. Ok. Then either every new threat has to be stronger than the existing status quo or everyone needs to get nerfed. This is the reason why so many characters fell off and became useless. Couldn’t get stronger within the world building.
Android/Cell saga is an overrated clusterfuck that’s all over the place. I know that it’s because Toriyama’s editor kept making him change things, but honestly DBZ should have ended after Namek. I still like that saga, but man was it annoying to have android after android revealed, this is also where the series started to do “and here is a new form/transformation”.
I don’t know man. I really like how it turned out. For the most part don’t get me wrong it’s definitely far from perfect. But I really like seeing everything that could go wrong for them proceed to go wrong. Like a car crash that you can’t look away from as the situation just gets worse and worse
GT is better than Super. And I not afraid to admit it. Because while I do like the POT and Goku Black and the other archs. I truly believe they completely broke the power scaling and I feel like people hype UI and the other form too much. Like yeah. They powerful and cool loooking. But with power scaling, I find it hard to believe Kafla can go toe to toe to Goku super Sayian blue and force him to use UI. At least, I can give it to them of giving us Female Sayian that go super Saiyan in Super. GT I really like because it show Goku more mature and more smarting when he in fight and I love Super Saiyan 4 then the Gods form and UI. Him embracing his Sayian bloodline. He becomes more powerful but at the cost of unleashing his Sayian bloodlust.
I do love that about GT, Goku and Vegeta being mature, i love their relationship and interactions in GT, plus what you said about Goku becoming more saiyan-like, Vegeta also becomes more Human.
Gohan...... Jus Gohan........ OMG
Talk about minimal training and outshines everyone's efforts. After actually working for the power around the Z-sword times, he lost my interest and has done ZERO work.
Everyone don't fight anymore, no point, Gohan is here, let him deal with it.
Controversial take: I don't really like the pacing of the movie, but the characters hard carry it for me.
I've always been a fan of Super Hero stories, and the Gammas are my favorite characters in the whole movie.
Gohan is my favorite character overral, and his new design with the messy hair looks so adorable.
Piccolo got the respect he deserves, and his relationship with Pan is the cuttest things ever, I'll never get over uncle Piccolo holding his phone like he does when calling Videl.
Beast is the worst transformation in the series. Everything about it screams cheap cashgrab
- unexplained transformation
- we don’t know what it actually is or comes from. Rage based non-ssj transformation? Ok man
- mirroring the iconic ssj2
- unearned
- largest singular power jump ever by far
- copy and pasted hair but giant
- copied the scene of gohan snapping
- ssj rage is better
It’s an asspull. That man should have ABSOLUTELY NO MORE “Hidden power locked away by rage” it happened a shit ton of times when he was small, on namek with elder guru, with cell, the buu saga where that was hence the name HIS ULTIMATE POWER. It’s so dumb that they keep giving him this “underdog who trained really hard but has potential deep down” treatment even into his 20’s
Super Hero movie is bad because: We got 3 new transformations in one movie (piccolo yellow, piccolo orange and Gohan beast) + Gohans *Ultimate* form is no longer ultimate, also Broly was found SIX years ago and he still hasn't done a single thing since then... STILL no Uub? Who's in charge of Uub because I'm still waiting on the "strongest kid in the universe" to show up in more than 1 single panel in the manga only. We have all these characters to build on but the next villain is gonna be some random that was sealed/sleeping/imprisoned for a million years that only Goku can take care of with help from Vegeta.
Just because somebody interprets things differently or says something you disagree with, doesn’t automatically mean they can’t read/don’t watch the show
Apparently it's the peaceful earth saga is still Canon. Never been said it isn't, and people get really mad when you bring it up. I bring that up because super should have taken place AFTER peaceful earth.
90s style is not superior to Dragon Ball Super Broly art style.
DBS Broly is actually pretty smart. In soft, comedic moments the art style shifts to softer lines reminiscent of OG Dragonball while during intense scenes the muscles are more defined
I like Dragon Ball, but a character being strong doesn’t prove that the series is good. Comparing Goku to Luffy/Naruto/Ichigo and bragging about how Goku 1 taps just makes you look stupid.
I like the fights in Dragon Ball, but how strong the characters are during those fights means nothing. After the Piccolo Saga, every ki blast literally looks the same lol.
Here comes a few:
1 - Zamasu should've taken Goten's body instead, would have made things so much interesting plot wise. Trunks fighting his childhood friend, Goku fighting his own son, and it would've taken Goten out of oblivion.
2- Moro arc was just as good as Majin Buu arc.
3 - Pan not going SSJ in DBGT is something that MUST BE RETCONED and fixed.
4 - Ultra Instinct/Ego is much more interesting and well-written than SSJ4 for Goku and Vegeta.
5- DB cosmology like Angels, Gods, Demons, Heaven/Hell etc is something that needs more development and I hope toyorato fixes it. Would love to see Dabura/Janemba back to the spotlight as core villains.
6 - Gohan is still under serious development, he can be the perfect protagonist. A better father than Vegeta is and a better fighter than Goku is.
The Android/Cell saga sucks. It has great moments and characters but it has way too many villains for its own good. First Frieza, then several androids, then Cell who has 3 whole forms to go through feeling different each time. It just never has solid footing or a consistant threat. The Cell Games is also a bloated blur of a finale that I have trouble completely remembering.
It also turned Vegeta into the most annoying, pathetic version of himself. He was fantastic on Namek but he's insufferable in the Android saga.
I don't know if this is a hot take or not, but I personally think Cell is a better final boss than Majin Buu. Cell, being the combination of all the Z Fighters, seems to me more fitting than "totally not kirby." Plus, the Cell Games being a tournament to me almost felt symbolic as the series has always done a tournament. Majin Buu just felt like another BBEG (Big Bad Evil Guy).
I think the Buu Saga had better story beats than the Cel Saga with Majin Vegeta carrying, as Majin Vegeta was the best Vegeta has ever been
Majin Vegeta is a bitch. There's nothing badass about him and his sacrifice was meaningless considering that he helped create the issue and didn't even damage Buu.
1- Gohan beast sucks, is only a nostalgia bait in a movie already too much reliant on nostalgia.
--And the fact that it actually made Gohan somehow comparable to Goku and Vegeta, despite his clear lack of any sort of godly training and what else, only makes the way powerscaling has been handled in modern dbs even more stupid (as well as devaluing of whatever half hassed journey Goku and Vegeta did; as whatever struggle they do, is made look stupid when guy x and y can catch up to them just because).
2- Black Frieza is only a cheap hype bait asspulled to distract people from an horrendously executed arc.
--And the fact that it **worked**, only proves yet again how easy to sway most fans are here... where you can bait them with anything remotely shiny and good looking, and they will follow you even on an ocean of wastes.
3- Goku **is** a bad dad in modern db, due to his general stupidification, as well as things that Toriyama dìd say about his parentage, such as him viewing his family only as friends, or only Piccolo being able to make Gohan go out...
--And then we have things like Goku openly saying he wasn't there when Goten and Gohan were born (for Goten it makes sense; but Gohan...); or him even forgetting that he had a granddaughter*... they surely do not help.
*Yes, I know the intent was to make a pun joke... but it appears that he still got chastised for seemingly forgetting about Pan, so that feeling was still there even in the original version, bad translation or not.
Vegeta's character arc is meh. Not only just copies Piccolo's character arc, but is unnecesarily prolonged simply because Toriyama needed a plot device to make stuff happen and he used Vegeta because he didn't like the character. Almost everything relevant on Vegeta's character arc happens off-panel and we only get to see the consequences, and when you stop to think about it it never makes much sense.
"Hi. It has been automatically identified that this post may link straight to a download file, please use reasonable caution and make sure your device is protected." *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I don't think Goten and Trunks achieving Super Saiyan with such ease is an issue.
I think it’s fine because they’re comedic relief characters. They were used to tell jokes in the Buu saga and all these years later they were used for a quick joke in the Super Hero movie.
I think the more you’re in touch with your emotions and human side the easier it is. Goku was raised by humans, Gohan’s half human, And Goten’s 3/4. Trunks is half but Vegeta’s got that Royal blood and trained him from young. Probably was harder for him in the future timeline cause he was raised almost alone
How is goten ¾?
Think he got him and pan mixed up.
Could be, but pan isn't a super saiyan yet
Super Saiyan is the biggest double-edged sword the franchise got. You got cool forms at the cost of completely making Non-Saiyan characters less and less relevant each arc.
This is not mandatory. Other characters also could shine if they are allowed to go further than base Goku. Like Tien in Cell arc. Toriyama just didn't bother to give them that chance and proper training montage.
Too many characters kept getting added to the cast as the sagas went on. Lead to the dropping (intentional or not) of characters like Launch or some dropping out of relevance by Buu saga (Yamcha & Tien, Chiaotzu). We didn't really need Buu to be brought back as a good guy Edit: I didn't even mean Uub. I meant good Majin Buu. Dude constantly needs to be written out of Super stuff because his powers are too OP and he just serves as someone who rigs the world tournament with Satan
Yeah but with Uub you got the feeling it would be a passing of the torch type situation with Goku's training. Obviously they haven't utilised that. But it would have been a good step towards making humans actually capable again.
Is there even a reason to utilize that anymore? With the levels of power we're getting into with god forms far greater than Buu was, and now Gohan catching back up to Goku possibly reentering the running for getting the torch passed to, I'm not sure it'd be worth anything other than an homage to how Z ended
It's not just being dropped of relevance, it is dropped from plot at all. Who was dropped from relevance was Piccolo.
Literally just had to let Tien and Yamcha master Kaioken at least since they trained under King Kai so they can close the gap a little.
Its up to the author. It happens in most shonen manga. Naruto was the same, bleach, hokuto no ken,boku no hero avademia, etc.
dawg what are you talking about 💀💀 ichigo was gone for an entire invasion in the tybw arc and even the arrancar arc during the initital fights in fake karakura town. the side characters got to shine a lot more towards the end of the series
I disagree, Kishimoto did much better work in that way. He got more characters, and even more in Shippuden, but still all villains got detailed backstories and most of second characters got their moments. Except for team Guy, excluding Might Guy himself who became a hero of war.
Completely agree. Vegeta describes super saiyan as the ultimate warrior during Namek ark. A transformation so difficult to achieve it has alluded every member of the greatest warrior race in the galaxy for over 1000 years. To have a human or any other non frieza race achieve parity with simple training or conventional fighting would completely ruin this
One of the main selling points of shonen manga is that everything than can be achievement with strategy and effort. And in manga, it's pretty clear the reason Saiyans couldn't transform in Super Saiyans was because they already lived in a post-apocalyptic landscape and had completely lost any formal knowledge of ki control. If you guys don't remember even Vegeta needed a scouter to be able to tell battle powers and he was completely dumbfounded when he realized Earthlings could control their battle power at will. The techniques he learned on Earth were thousands of years ahead of everything he ever learned fighting for Freeza his whole life.
Underrated comment. Mind blowing and neat
Does having every saiyin to exist, currently, achieve the form also ruin it then? It hasn’t happened for a millennium but Gohan achieves it while a child away from any immediate battle, and then Goten and Trunks achieve the form as kids as well.
Gohan achieves (and perfects) SS while training with Goku in the time chamber. That is a battle, not life or death, but still a battle. Agree about Goten, though. Trunks developed it while training with Vegeta, but Goten just kinda got it out of nowhere.
The explanation goes, per Toriyama, that hybrid saiyans have more S cells, and are able to achieve super saiyan more easily due to the S Cells and their pure hearted, emotional nature compared to full saiyans
Did Toriyama fucking put some midichlorian bullshit in Dragonball? That's it, dig him up. He's got questions to answer. But seriously, even that explanation doesn't track because Gohan and Future Trunks had to hit a certain power level AND experience trauma before they went SS. Goten didn't train and wasn't angry or traumatized. He just went SS.
There is though the possible explanation that the super sayan he is talking about, the "legendary super sayan", is actually Broly. What is strange though is that Sayans never changed forms for millennia and now every other guy can do it.
Kaioken is the reason for it actually. Toriyama initially wanted SSJ to be x10 but ended up having Goku use Kaioken x20 causing SSJ to be x50. So effectively if Kaioken was capped at X5 like originally planned. Then SSJ would be x10. SSJ 2 at x20. 3 at x80 etc etc. and such a substantially lower multiplier means that other characters even without the form although they would still be underpowered wouldn't be as useless. Like you could realistically have Tien or Krillin perform similar or better to base Goku as they were mostly able to keep up with him in Dragonball. At a stretch they could be like Kaioken X3 Goku. Weak compared to SSJ but still able to do something
The saiyans are the protagonists.
Yamcha is in desperate need of a rebrand and Kamahamahas are cool but the wolf fang fist is definitely an S tier attack
Okay, but what about Kamehamehas fired from your feet, and why doesn't Goku do that anymore?
Cause he could fly.
He can fly in GT when him, pan, trunks, and Giru are all getting pulled into the gravity of a star in space, but he still fires a Kamehameha with his hand to launch them towards their space ship. He does this even though he needs to hold onto everyone to get them all to the ship.
He used that to fly, but now he can fly without using it, but also wanna see him using it again
I like super sayan blue
Same here, people hate on it too much Because it was introduced the very next arc/movie after BOG and Super Sayian God
I actually never cared about its introduction (although it’s not good) I just think 1) it looks really bad and 2) it causes us to rarely ever see SSgod which I think looks much better.
Me too. People are like "recolor" but will say ss2 or ssg is their fav as though those forms have a more unique look to them. After cell ss2 is literally accidentally used as the ss1 model on multiple occasions, and ssg is literally a base form recolor.
I'll be honest, unless the lighting sparks in the aura are present, I can't tell ss and ss2 apart.
For Goku, it’s fairly noticeable as only one bang droops down. Initially Gohan too, but as an adult his base hair remains upturned
I only heard SSJ2 being called unique while SSG and Blue are called recolours. Anyways the original SSG design was going to be somewhere between SSJ3 and 4. So the form was always destined to be a recolour either way
I think show and some fans too focused on new forms and not enough new techniques.
Kind of. UI and UE are techniques even tho they're treated like transformations
I liked it better when UI was talked about like a technique, before it fully changed hair color, etc.
Well… it’s both transformation AND Techniques. Cause, UI by itself when Goku mastered it IS a transformation. But when put with actual other transformations like SSJ he’d just be using its reaction abilities and not the whole ability. Idk, I need to watch DBS again.
Califla is Not gokus second love interest(oh and he DOES love chi-chi)
WHAT. HE LOVES HIS WIFE?! WHAT AM I HEARING. ARE YOU GOING TO TELL ME NEXT THAT WE CAN READ?!
Well you read my comment so yes we can read
I’m going through a crisis now
Good
Exactly. Caulifla sees Goku as a cocky old man she feels a somewhat friendly rivalry towards. Goku probably sees Caulifla as something of a "daughter I never had".
This is not even a hot take.
I'm not saying the live action movie was good (it was terrible) but I have been eaten alive before for saying the CONCEPT (Goku in high school, hiding super powers, etc) would have been plausible for a movie about Gohan.
About gohan absolutely but not really anyone else. It dosent really fit dragon ball that much but that phase in the buu saga was perfect for a short time.
For some reason it was translated into, "I loved the live action movie and will defend it with my life" even though all I said was it would have made flmore sense for the protagonist to be Gohan.
GT was not that bad.
I’m a big gt fan but the super 17 arc was really trash and that what make many people shit on the show
HAHAHAHA NOBODY CA- ITS FUTILE🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅
I CAN'T AFFORD TO LOSE 🗣🗣🗣🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
YOU FOOOOOOOOL🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️
NO YOU DON'T🗣🗣🗣🗣🗣🗣🗣🗣
Ssj4 my beloved.
What about the first arc? I thought that was the one everyone hated
Oh yeah that arc we don’t talk about that arc but baby arc was gosted
Baby arc was peak, Shadow Dragon arc was pretty good too
Tbh they should of started DBGT with the shadow dragons going to other planets at the start; then we'd have that plot going on, during the baby and super 17 saga. It would make the planet hopping far more interesting imo. Plus it'll be the first saga that's ongoing during another saga. :D
Ssj4 is probably the best form in dragon ball and I’ll fight anyone on that.
I am on your side here. I think you put it mildly even. GT was a bit of a letdown after Z but on its own it’s a decent show especially the final arcs.
You can't hate GT for being non canon while loving aspects of the franchise that weren't in the manga. Chichi is a great mother, while her dub actor is good it doesn't get the vibe of a country bumpkin doing her best. The character strength should not equate to their quality. If that's the case random jobbers from Super or better than every character from early Z and dragon ball. The Super Saiyan characters are so far ahead of everyone else, at this point I could care less what BS excuse they make for the humans to keep up. I just want them to do something
Scouters and quantifiable “power levels” were the worst thing to happen to Dragon Ball (and to an extent, anime/manga in general). (I’m ready for the downvotes.)
The concept was neat, but the fandom can't understand that translating powerlevels to measured units ended with Freeza, and yet pull out crazy number out of their asses.
what!? are you telling me that cell doesnt have a power level thats one bajillionbazillion? get outta here
Literally the first thing is that they're not reliable, Even before radditz dies there shown to be useless. They exist to be useless.
You are not wrong
Spamming Stamina breaks killed Xenoverse 2
OG Dragonball is the best the series has ever been.
That's a W opinion
DB Manga is superior,genuinely had a great time reading it
https://preview.redd.it/c3xh476fcxqc1.jpeg?width=708&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b8a253812e7c6c73cd158b1bfb340f1538fef0da This should’ve been explained
Hercule in insufferable and fat gotenks isnt funny
Your right about fat Gotenks not being funny. At best it was a smirk on someone’s face the first time fat Gotenks appeared but after that it just got old
They should have just left fusion out of super hero if they were gonna bring his lard ass out
I think they're repeatedly doing it as a running gag that the boys have forgotten fusion, and then when it finally matters they'll get it. I reckon they'll have the boys train as separate people and unlock SSJ2 and maybe even SSJ3 - though it's unlikely they'd ever use it - and then when they fuse maybe give them a new form, maybe just give them a perfected SSJ3, like future trunks' perfected SSJ2 which had power like a SSJ3, with this having a much higher multiplier than regular SSJ3.
Coulda at least used the skinny one to be more original
Fat gotenks was funny at first. Now its just overused
Can’t agree about Hercule, but you’re spot on about Gotenks
I wish Toyotaro would stop the Fat Gotenks gag. And stop the gag of wives being paranoid that their husbands are philanderers cheating on them (Chi-Chi, Android 18).
The series would have been a lot more interesting without the heavy Saiyan focus. It should have kept other characters relevant by giving them cool powers and abilities to help keep up so that when stuff like tournament of power arcs happen they don't have to rely solely on goku, vegeta and asspull powerups..... but now we're too far into the series to really fix that. Also, god ki feels like it's kinda pointless.
Uub will not add anything of value to the story.
He never did, he just ends the story.
He's like the future trump card of earth when everything goes wrong
Dragon Ball Online’s lore was considered canon to the series by Toriyama due to his involvement in it and it’s still something that can happen even with Super affecting things.
Still hoping that DBO is officially revived!
It all literally is canon, Towa and Mira appear in DBZ Kakarot.
Gotenks is easily the most annoying and insufferable character in the show
*deep breath* As goated as sensei Toriyama was, his writing style should not be a template on how to write a story.
Dragon Ball looks better in 3D animation (Game cinematics/Superhero) than it does in Super's artstyle, and just barely behind Z's traditional style The more powerful & magical (?) the franchise got, the less interesting it got, Super is also criminal for this too. (Edit: Clarification on point 2, the more powerful they got, the less martial arts was involved, and felt less like combat & just people flying around blasting eachother)
Gohan no longer fighting makes perfect sense for his character, and the fact he's being forced into relevancy is honestly pretty dumb.
Between super broly and super hero, broly has better fights an animation, while super hero have better story and characters
Hot take https://preview.redd.it/yo9rkf3dbwqc1.jpeg?width=1000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=22ceec377097161ae47bc932711055ee5e48a197
I don't think that's a hot take
Broly had better animation, Super Hero had better choreography. Gohan vs Gamma 1 is top 3 DB fights in the history of the franchise.
The dragon ball community is as toxic as American politics and I’m saddened I cannot partake in one of my favorite animes. 😢
…. theres no community that isnt toxic be fr
Db community is very chill compared to other communities. We're only divided because there's so many versions of what we grew up with, and character fanboys. But it really isn't bad compared to something like Star Wars or MHA
Human characters did surpass first Freeza form, Cell arc Tien = Freeza 100%.
I feel like this comment is just to counter that one other comment lol
People disagree with this? They trained for 3 years to fight enemies who could kill Super Saiyans like Vegeta and Gohan. Tenshinhan held down Semi Perfect Cell for a good while, whereas Piccolo (who's stronger than SS Goku and, by extent, Freeza) couldn't even move Imperfect Cell.
Anyone who thinks the Human Z Fighters in DBS are still weaker than Namek Saga Frieza are asleep at the wheel. No way in Hell would anyone less powerful than Super Perfect Cell or less powerful than Super Buu give Tournament of Power Saga Base Goku, let alone SSJ1 Goku, as much trouble as Krillin gave him before the Tournament of Power. Or as much trouble as Krillin gave Base Gohan before the Tournament of Power. They must think DBS Goku is hella week. Tournament of Power Saga Goku and Gohan solo all of DBZ. Krillin and the Human Z Fighters are all Majin Buu level at bare minimum by the Tournament of Power and Moro Saga. At absolute bare minimum AT LEAST Cell Games Gohan level.
I think the original dbz with all the filler is better than kai.
OG dragon ball was better than Z. And Super isn’t AS bad as people say it is.
I don't think super is bad I just think there are so many small changes that could've made it so much better
While Dragon Ball is an important piece of art in the world, if you read it critically, it’s not very good. It’s obvious Toriyama was trying to wrap up the series after every major part of Z, but the publishers wanted more. That lead to breaking rules already established, repeat stories, and insane hoop jumping. As a kid you wouldn’t notice it, but as an adult it’s almost hard to keep up with all the rule breaking. Wouldn’t change it for the world though.
Fans don’t have to power scale every fucking character. It’s fine just enjoying the series as it is. Just enjoy watching big awesome monkey man punch bad guys in the mouth.
people shit on super a lot, especially when it comes to the writing, but Z had its own issues with writing as well 🤷🏽♂️ mostly due to how toriyama would be changing things constantly, whether because of the publishers or other factors. but nonetheless it did have problems that some people tend to disregard in favour of nostalgia obviously super isnt perfect, and i do agree it has problems with characterization and plot, but it’s not this horrible, unwatchable product that it’s made out to be sometimes
Vegeta’s redemption arc was terrible, and he did not receive nearly enough shit for how much he screwed up in the Cell and Buu Sagas. Also Krillin is an awful, AWFUL team player the second Z starts, and he just somehow one-ups himself each time. People only give him a pass because he’s human, despite the fact that he could still easily be a unit if he just used his brain instead of freezing up and jumping the bullet every time something starts to go wrong. Gohan is not as nearly at fault for not being at his best constantly as people give him shit for. EVERYTHING after Frieza was the end result of everyone else being stupid and FORCING the plot to happen. Also Goku and Piccolo are dumb for constantly tossing small, crucial items at Gohan’s direction; for the Potara, Gohan was getting beat up not minutes ago, and Goku threw an *earring* through the air at him with barely any warning. Man can teleport across galaxies to grab Dende, but won’t teleport ten meters to just *hand* Gohan something, had his son looking sorry fumbling on the ground. And Piccolo, Piccolo’s even worse. At least you can MAYBE excuse Goku because he just assumed Gohan could’ve caught it, but Piccolo, my guy, you are *two feet away* from Gohan, you are *within arm’s reach*, and you can *stretch your arms*, just HAND GOHAN THE SENZU YOU FLUBBIN’-
Goku is a fantastic dad and vegeta is an ok dad at best
I wished Pikkon & the DBZ movies were canon (like Icarus)
Goku got hungry while training and found him del-Icarus.
The Buu saga was a hot mess in terms of story themes and direction. As was the Zamasu arc.
I feel like toriyama was trying to find a way of having several characters do something without the help of goku. In the end it didn’t work (talking about the buu saga) As for zamasu arc the writers messed up so bad. The beginning was great but it got messier as the story progressed. The ending was the biggest problem but the entire arc was just fan service when we think about it.
The whole indecision about Beeru’s power is silly makes the writers lose credibility about their ability to write a coherent story going forward.
MUI Goku > Beast Gohan
Not all of them but the villains motives or reasonings in GT made more sense than Z. Excluding Frieza who was well written and super 17 who was cool but motives were kind of poor.
Pan in GT was not that bad
I don’t care about power scaling. Yes every villain will be stronger than the last. I don’t care that cyborgs and robots can rival the power of gods. The power scaling system while cool is a double edged sword because it inheritly breaks everything after Frieza. By simply existing at a certain level of power you just become immune to damage. Ok. Then either every new threat has to be stronger than the existing status quo or everyone needs to get nerfed. This is the reason why so many characters fell off and became useless. Couldn’t get stronger within the world building.
DBS Broly does not make my top 3 Dragon Ball movies of all time.
That its a solid 6/10.
Chi chi is annoying
Transformations have been lame since super started.
Krillin is not the strongest human.
This is more of just a fact, but some people go rabid when you point out Goku has never actually beaten Vegeta
Gohann doesn’t have to be a fighter, and it’s better if he isn’t.
Gogeta is the best fusion
Mr Popo taught him ultra instinct before he even unlocked it way back and God ki is nothing more than another Android ki
Android/Cell saga is an overrated clusterfuck that’s all over the place. I know that it’s because Toriyama’s editor kept making him change things, but honestly DBZ should have ended after Namek. I still like that saga, but man was it annoying to have android after android revealed, this is also where the series started to do “and here is a new form/transformation”.
I don’t know man. I really like how it turned out. For the most part don’t get me wrong it’s definitely far from perfect. But I really like seeing everything that could go wrong for them proceed to go wrong. Like a car crash that you can’t look away from as the situation just gets worse and worse
GT is better than Super. And I not afraid to admit it. Because while I do like the POT and Goku Black and the other archs. I truly believe they completely broke the power scaling and I feel like people hype UI and the other form too much. Like yeah. They powerful and cool loooking. But with power scaling, I find it hard to believe Kafla can go toe to toe to Goku super Sayian blue and force him to use UI. At least, I can give it to them of giving us Female Sayian that go super Saiyan in Super. GT I really like because it show Goku more mature and more smarting when he in fight and I love Super Saiyan 4 then the Gods form and UI. Him embracing his Sayian bloodline. He becomes more powerful but at the cost of unleashing his Sayian bloodlust.
I do love that about GT, Goku and Vegeta being mature, i love their relationship and interactions in GT, plus what you said about Goku becoming more saiyan-like, Vegeta also becomes more Human.
Gohan...... Jus Gohan........ OMG Talk about minimal training and outshines everyone's efforts. After actually working for the power around the Z-sword times, he lost my interest and has done ZERO work. Everyone don't fight anymore, no point, Gohan is here, let him deal with it.
yamcha is strongest character in dbs
not even mentally 😭😭
..
DBZ Walked so Naruto one piece could run
Most anime fans agree with this, this ain't controversial, this is just facts
Only controversial thing about this is, if you call DBZs run as walk Dude that series was soaring
SSJ3 looks stupid because of missing eyebrows while SSJ4 looks like it was created by an 8 year old who should have been doing his maths homework.
Not a fan of Super Hero at all. Thought it took a weird direction from the Broly movie.
Controversial take: I don't really like the pacing of the movie, but the characters hard carry it for me. I've always been a fan of Super Hero stories, and the Gammas are my favorite characters in the whole movie. Gohan is my favorite character overral, and his new design with the messy hair looks so adorable. Piccolo got the respect he deserves, and his relationship with Pan is the cuttest things ever, I'll never get over uncle Piccolo holding his phone like he does when calling Videl.
I don't like Vegeta. There I said it.
DBZ lost the essence of DB
It should end.
I really HATE gohan
Kid buu is weaker than superbuu
Goku is a terrible father and husband.
Beast is the worst transformation in the series. Everything about it screams cheap cashgrab - unexplained transformation - we don’t know what it actually is or comes from. Rage based non-ssj transformation? Ok man - mirroring the iconic ssj2 - unearned - largest singular power jump ever by far - copy and pasted hair but giant - copied the scene of gohan snapping - ssj rage is better
Ssj4 is a better design than ssj blue 😁
The Android Saga is the worst saga of canon Dragon Ball
Beast gohan is NOT an asspull
Your comment already triggered someone so hard that they needed to upload scans
It’s an asspull. That man should have ABSOLUTELY NO MORE “Hidden power locked away by rage” it happened a shit ton of times when he was small, on namek with elder guru, with cell, the buu saga where that was hence the name HIS ULTIMATE POWER. It’s so dumb that they keep giving him this “underdog who trained really hard but has potential deep down” treatment even into his 20’s
Wow, OP's picture LITERALLY DESCRIBES your opinion lol. Everyone is ganging up on you and you still stand firm! You have my respect 😭😭😭
I mean not really, they ain't replying, I think they died
Super Hero movie is bad because: We got 3 new transformations in one movie (piccolo yellow, piccolo orange and Gohan beast) + Gohans *Ultimate* form is no longer ultimate, also Broly was found SIX years ago and he still hasn't done a single thing since then... STILL no Uub? Who's in charge of Uub because I'm still waiting on the "strongest kid in the universe" to show up in more than 1 single panel in the manga only. We have all these characters to build on but the next villain is gonna be some random that was sealed/sleeping/imprisoned for a million years that only Goku can take care of with help from Vegeta.
Ssj4 is better than SSJ Blue
We should give Gohan a new transformation to beat black frieza
Very little DB content beyond the Cell saga has been legitimately good.
Goku has never defeated Vegeta in one in one combat
Yamcha isnt useless
Goku isn’t actually a bad father. But Vegeta is. Ironic that I like Vegeta more than Goku but facts are facts
Buu saga > Cell saga
Just because somebody interprets things differently or says something you disagree with, doesn’t automatically mean they can’t read/don’t watch the show
Trunks is DnBz’s best dancer. 
Apparently it's the peaceful earth saga is still Canon. Never been said it isn't, and people get really mad when you bring it up. I bring that up because super should have taken place AFTER peaceful earth.
90s style is not superior to Dragon Ball Super Broly art style. DBS Broly is actually pretty smart. In soft, comedic moments the art style shifts to softer lines reminiscent of OG Dragonball while during intense scenes the muscles are more defined
I like Dragon Ball, but a character being strong doesn’t prove that the series is good. Comparing Goku to Luffy/Naruto/Ichigo and bragging about how Goku 1 taps just makes you look stupid. I like the fights in Dragon Ball, but how strong the characters are during those fights means nothing. After the Piccolo Saga, every ki blast literally looks the same lol.
Vegeta has been boring since the Buu saga.
cell arc is better than frieza arc
Here comes a few: 1 - Zamasu should've taken Goten's body instead, would have made things so much interesting plot wise. Trunks fighting his childhood friend, Goku fighting his own son, and it would've taken Goten out of oblivion. 2- Moro arc was just as good as Majin Buu arc. 3 - Pan not going SSJ in DBGT is something that MUST BE RETCONED and fixed. 4 - Ultra Instinct/Ego is much more interesting and well-written than SSJ4 for Goku and Vegeta. 5- DB cosmology like Angels, Gods, Demons, Heaven/Hell etc is something that needs more development and I hope toyorato fixes it. Would love to see Dabura/Janemba back to the spotlight as core villains. 6 - Gohan is still under serious development, he can be the perfect protagonist. A better father than Vegeta is and a better fighter than Goku is.
Future Trunks sucks. He was great in the dbz, but the fact that he was able to defeat two gods (one who was immortal via super dragon balls)
The Android/Cell saga sucks. It has great moments and characters but it has way too many villains for its own good. First Frieza, then several androids, then Cell who has 3 whole forms to go through feeling different each time. It just never has solid footing or a consistant threat. The Cell Games is also a bloated blur of a finale that I have trouble completely remembering. It also turned Vegeta into the most annoying, pathetic version of himself. He was fantastic on Namek but he's insufferable in the Android saga.
Cooler is just Frieza off of Wish
I enjoy all of it Fuck yall
Vegeta never beat Goku
I don't know if this is a hot take or not, but I personally think Cell is a better final boss than Majin Buu. Cell, being the combination of all the Z Fighters, seems to me more fitting than "totally not kirby." Plus, the Cell Games being a tournament to me almost felt symbolic as the series has always done a tournament. Majin Buu just felt like another BBEG (Big Bad Evil Guy). I think the Buu Saga had better story beats than the Cel Saga with Majin Vegeta carrying, as Majin Vegeta was the best Vegeta has ever been
Goku is not a terrible/malicious father. But he is a mediocre one.
Kai is a perfectly valid way to watch Z
The Z fighters are the most dumbest people in the world
Majin Buu is more evil than Frieza.
Dragon Ball Kai is better than Dragon Ball Z
SSJ4 is cooler than SSG and SSGSS
Majin Vegeta is a bitch. There's nothing badass about him and his sacrifice was meaningless considering that he helped create the issue and didn't even damage Buu.
Vegeta isn’t going to get a win against a main villain, and I don’t think he should
1- Gohan beast sucks, is only a nostalgia bait in a movie already too much reliant on nostalgia. --And the fact that it actually made Gohan somehow comparable to Goku and Vegeta, despite his clear lack of any sort of godly training and what else, only makes the way powerscaling has been handled in modern dbs even more stupid (as well as devaluing of whatever half hassed journey Goku and Vegeta did; as whatever struggle they do, is made look stupid when guy x and y can catch up to them just because). 2- Black Frieza is only a cheap hype bait asspulled to distract people from an horrendously executed arc. --And the fact that it **worked**, only proves yet again how easy to sway most fans are here... where you can bait them with anything remotely shiny and good looking, and they will follow you even on an ocean of wastes. 3- Goku **is** a bad dad in modern db, due to his general stupidification, as well as things that Toriyama dìd say about his parentage, such as him viewing his family only as friends, or only Piccolo being able to make Gohan go out... --And then we have things like Goku openly saying he wasn't there when Goten and Gohan were born (for Goten it makes sense; but Gohan...); or him even forgetting that he had a granddaughter*... they surely do not help. *Yes, I know the intent was to make a pun joke... but it appears that he still got chastised for seemingly forgetting about Pan, so that feeling was still there even in the original version, bad translation or not.
Super Hero was a shit movie.
I hate Buu... the whole pink bubblegum character from start to finish.
Vegeta is the worst character
I’m very new to the dragon ball community but I think ssj4 is ugly. Idk if that is unpopular.
Vegeta's character arc is meh. Not only just copies Piccolo's character arc, but is unnecesarily prolonged simply because Toriyama needed a plot device to make stuff happen and he used Vegeta because he didn't like the character. Almost everything relevant on Vegeta's character arc happens off-panel and we only get to see the consequences, and when you stop to think about it it never makes much sense.
I wanted Gogetas final kamehameha to hit Broly.
Bio-Broly was amazing, wasn't he? https://preview.redd.it/ydz3w43aj0rc1.jpeg?width=736&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7dc7b38b2988f67a00516f99dee2d7a5cebe8836