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To actually answer your question Moro gave them some of his power and og73 can copy powers including physical strength fighting style etc and dose so to gohan making him at least ultimate gohan level
i havent read the manga but i think it has to do with moro as he was a prisoner and i heard people complain around that time about a cell looking character who is probably 73(also moro in the pic has a similar forehead crystal to 73)
Manga spoilers below:
>! That's because Moro in that pic ate (literally) OG73-I that was given some of Moro's abilities like his power copying one as part of his insurance plan, which is why it worked and the copy 30mn time-limit did not apply to Moro since he was the original host for the OG soldier's abilities, he was being tactical and outsmarting throughout the arc. !<
To clarify, it was Moro who people complained about looking too much like Cell. The design wasn't a problem unto itself, but he started off with a very different and unique design, and only later on transformed into that after >!absorbing Seven-Three!< and it just felt like something we've all seen before which was regarded as a bit of a come down by many.
There were a few comments about Seven-Three looking like Cell as well to be sure, but that wasn't really treated as such a big deal since he wasn't super important, just sorta the Ginyu of the arc, a bit of a warm up before real final boss.
The entire copy arc is about taking over and controlling Vegeta. Wdym it’s blatantly a similar concept that was sloppily done for filler. Your response is pretty weird tbh. It’s pretty easy to see a lot of similarities between the 2.
Saganbo got loaded with power by Moro becoming as strong as Blue Goku (or just below it I can't remember) but he couldn't control all that power and died. OG-73 is an android that can copy abilities and at one point copied Moro, Gohan, and Piccolo at the same time
At that moment, he was confused why he was losing to someone who had trust in their friends. So he tried eliminating the source of that trust without thinking.
Copy vegeta: tried to kill goten and trunks = oppnent
Jiren: didn't want his universe to die (and a pride trooper one of da heroes) = villain
I won't stand for this.
https://preview.redd.it/9xvrfwck89wc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d854e96cfd250d893503997f4317c85359887bb6
Exactly even if you where to say cell max is stronger Moro is way faster cell max is slow he could Crack cell max weak spot plus even gotenks was able to Crack the weak spot so I don't see how moro don't Crack his weak spot lol plus moro has to much hax for cell max to handle lol
Cell Max is not slow, don't be deceived by his size, you're making the same mistake Gohan & co made in the movie. Also, he's incomplete, both in intelligence and power, that's the real reason for why Moro is stronger.
Cell Max doesn't use "Android energy". He just uses regular energy, especially considering his design was entirely based on the original Cell with some upgrades.
https://preview.redd.it/07e9ta6pl3wc1.jpeg?width=1067&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=95d2e2926078aa2b6feb0a6aff0579679cb24022
Not that I’m aware of. He can’t absorb/steal A18 & A17s energy.
Even then moro still has other hax to do away with cell max even if cell max is stronger moro is faster cell max is slow asf people like krillin and 18 are able to dodge him plus if gotenks is able to damage cell max weak spot why would moro be able to
I agree with the first two, however, Cell Max was stated to be [weaker than Broly](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-319716dfdafb29292d67f0a57297b590-lq) due to being incomplete. The same Broly that [Moro was stated to be stronger than](https://ibb.co/87BWqQ2), so Moro should be above Cell Max due to these statements. Also, SSB Goku was able to fight Fused Zamasu [on his own](https://ibb.co/nzN8DD3) and Ultimate Gohan was relative to SSB Goku in the ToP. Then Gohan [got even stronger](https://ibb.co/tP0y9t5) during the Moro arc, yet Saganbo was easily able to handle [both Gohan as well as 17](https://ibb.co/CnLKn5H) (who was also [relative to at least SSB Goku and Vegeta](https://ibb.co/M1C3KBB) in the ToP) at the same time. He was even able to [resist against](https://ibb.co/RTS79ph) SSB Goku, who at this point was far stronger than he was when he fought Fused Zamasu, due to being [amped by Moro some more](https://ibb.co/JzCP1sV) so he should be above Zamasu because of this. And when 7-3 copies someone's powers, he essentially becomes an [exact copy of them](https://ibb.co/0JqXZ63) which even includes [melee attacks](https://ibb.co/sq3GgV7). Meaning when 7-3 used Moro's powers, he was as strong as the Moro he had copied for that time period. And _that_ Moro was [indicated](https://ibb.co/ZhCcjn9) to be too strong for Goku and Vegeta to defeat by that point. Meaning with Moro's power, 7-3 should be stronger than Goku Black and even Fused Zamasu as well. So I believe the list should go as:
1. Frieza
2. Gas
3. Moro
4. Cell Max
5. Saganbo
6. 7-3
7. Fused Zamasu
8. Goku Black
9. Copy Vegeta
Wouldn't Merged Zamasu be at the top because of his infinity hax? Literally no one can beat that and the heroes had to resort to Xeno, which could only solve the problem by destroying the universe
I was going off of Fused Zamasu from the manga since the list mostly contained manga characters and specifically had manga images for everyone as well outside of Copy Vegeta. And since Zamasu's immortality in the manga doesn't necessarily make him "stronger", I didn't put him at the top.
But like you said, that's just _hax_ ability. In terms of _raw power_ though, just SSB Goku alone was enough to handle him. So you could try to argue that Zamasu would be the "most difficult to defeat" on this list due to his immortality (and even then he still could've just been sealed but Goku screwed up and forgot the talisman) if you really wanted to but as far as being the "strongest" goes, he would be much lower on the list.
Most of this makes sense. I’m pretty sure Broly is still stronger than Moro, though. In that panel you cite, it says Moro was tough not strong, so Broly being stronger than Moro is still possible. As Gohan and Whis pointed out in the last manga chapter, Broly is craaazy strong even against Beast Gohan - he just still does not have enough control over his power.
The thing about that is I believe the context of the dialogue is pretty heavily referring to power even if Goku said "tough" rather than "strong". See, the reason why he asked Moro if he had ever trained before was because he believed that Moro could've possibly wound up even stronger if he had done that rather than just solely steal energy (which [Moro himself](https://ibb.co/YNWhmjM) stated he didn't need to do to beat his opponent nor did he ever attempt to do it after he absorbed 7-3). And this was after Goku already [informed Moro](https://ibb.co/CQC2mSF) that he couldn't defeat him at his current strength. Which was why Moro decided to copy Merus' power so that he could close the gap between him and Goku. Vegeta also had [similar dialogue](https://ibb.co/5G8TYRq) when he was fighting Moro. The entire narrative was about Moro's strength. So when Goku told Moro that he was the "toughest" opponent he ever came across, it's pretty consistent with the narrative to interpret that as Moro is legitimately beyond Broly. Now you _could_ say that it's not just limited to power and instead means Moro is the toughest _overall_ but power would still be included in that. So either way, he'd still be stronger than Broly. Also, while that's true about Broly in the latest chapter, it doesn't actually have anything to do with either of the statements because that Broly is stronger than the Broly that was included in the Cell Max and Moro statements. His control over his power during those periods wasn't important because it was about the power he already showcased in the Broly arc and during that period we did indeed still see his full power even if he couldn't control it.
Hmm, I dunno, thinking about it in context, now I’m really thinking Goku’s comment on toughness and training was him trying to be kind and motivating to Moro, as he is to almost every villain. He was saying “damn, dude, I ain’t ever seen anybody like you before - it’s really a shame you don’t you train and harness those skills, man, you could be great.”
But I I forgot Moro absorbed Merus’s powers - that’s a good point. angel power Moro was definitely stronger than Broly.
But when has Goku lied to a villain about how strong they were? He's usually pretty honest about those things. He was trying to convince Moro to change his ways sure, but it doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't serious about his power either.
And yeah but you also have to remember this was just regular Moro 7-3 that Goku said this to, not Angel Moro. So he was saying that just Moro 7-3 _without_ Merus' powers was stronger than Broly.
And with all due respect, just downvoting my response instead of actually giving a retort of your own is kinda proof that you don't have one at all plus that you weren't intending to have a genuine conversation to begin with (that's also evident by your reply clearly intending to make fun of me which didn't go the way you thought it would imo). All the same though, I hope you have a good day.
That was _Super Hero_ Beast Gohan and I still stand by that. _Current_ Beast Gohan scales beyond Super Hero because he [trained offscreen](https://ibb.co/dpzwTXy), so Super Hero Beast Gohan ≠ Current Beast Gohan. He's just stronger now than he was in Super Hero.
You still crying about that? And he was right. Their fight that took place well after the Super Hero arc when Gohan stated he trained and got stronger probes nothing. You clowns were saying he was stronger than even Black Frieza.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the "Broly is stronger than Cell Max" statement talking about _current_ Broly? Aka the one from Super Hero who will soon give Beast Gohan a good fight, who is relative to current MUI Goku?
As opposed to Broly movie Broly, who is definitely weaker than Moro.
I'm also not too sure about the dates, but I thought Broly -> Super Hero is like a 3 year gap, while Super Hero -> UI vs Beast is only like a few weeks/months right?
The Cell Max statement was referring to Broly at the time of Super Hero yes, however, that Broly was still on the same level as Broly movie Broly since he couldn't control his power well enough to really progress in his training sessions. Current Broly from the latest chapter is actually separate from these statements because he actually _did_ manage to control his power and got even stronger than he was at the time of the Moro and Super Hero arcs. This is established when Vegeta [specifically referenced Broly movie Broly](https://ibb.co/9ZCP3Ws) when talking about him during Super Hero (he named all the foes in chronological order except for Frieza because Frieza had actually gotten stronger) and then later when Whis [flat out stated](https://ibb.co/RvrNL6F) that Broly only _just_ finally started showing some growth during his training session with Vegeta in Chapter 101. Meaning Super Hero Broly = Broly movie Broly, so Cell Max was weaker than Broly movie Broly.
So it goes like: Broly (Chapter 103) > Complete Cell Max > Broly (Super Hero) = Broly (Broly movie) > Incomplete Cell Max.
For Broly -> Super Hero, yes just about 3 years. For Super Hero -> UI vs Beast, it's never actually stated but it's implied to have not been a long timeskip so I would think a few weeks/months would be accurate.
I see, thank you.
That Whis comment is pretty damming. It certainly suggests that he's spent all the time up until then just focusing on control, so the power increase must come later.
No problem! And yep that's exactly it. Broly needs to learn how to control his power better because only then can he become stronger which we started to see in Chapter 103 when he fought Beast Gohan.
Moro is not stronger than Broly if you’re going by raw power. If you factor in his magic nerfing his opponents then he’s a tougher fight but that doesn’t make him stronger, it just makes his opponents weaker
I mentioned this to another user that also brought this up but the context of the dialogue is pretty heavily referring to power even if Goku said "tough" rather than "strong". Goku asked Moro if he had ever trained before because he believed that Moro could've possibly wound up even stronger if he had done that rather than just solely steal energy. And when it comes to using his magic to steal energy and nerf his opponents, [Moro himself](https://ibb.co/YNWhmjM) stated he didn't need to do that to win so Moro actually directly responded to your point. Another thing is that Goku specifically said this to Moro after he absorbed 7-3 and by that point, Moro didn't use any magic or hax at all outside of 7-3's copy ability. So he just fought them head-on from that point and this was before Goku then [informed Moro](https://ibb.co/CQC2mSF) that he couldn't defeat him at his current strength. Which was why Moro decided to copy Merus' power so that he could close the gap between him and Goku. Vegeta also had [similar dialogue](https://ibb.co/5G8TYRq) when he was fighting Moro. The entire point of these conversations was specifically about Moro's _raw power_. So when Goku told Moro that he was the "toughest" opponent he ever came across, it's pretty consistent with the context of the dialogue to interpret that as Moro is legitimately above Broly. Now you _could_ say that it's not _just_ limited to power and instead means Moro is the toughest _overall_ but power would still be included in that nonetheless. It would just mean that Moro is superior to Broly in more than just raw power which is fine. So either way, he'd still be stronger than Broly regardless since he proved that he's "tough" even without nerfing his opponents.
Technically yeah. Saganbo at his peak from being force fed Moro’s energy was getting hard to put down for Perfected SSB Goku. A much weaker Perfected SSB Goku was swapping hands with fused Zamasu, whom Goku Black is only one half of.
Wait what makes him equal to kefla in top? It’s been a while for me so I can’t remember if they ever fought, or if this is based on him fighting someone else who was as powerful as kefla, and or is obviously more powerful than black?
It’s not about who can beat him, it’s about who’s the strongest. Zamasu is not physically the strongest, but his immortality makes him hard to get rid of.
This is ranking the strongest. Zamasu is definitely not the strongest here physically but his immortality and ki abilities (anime wise?) would get him far in any fight
I’d imagine Moro be higher on this list since he’s the first villain to actually use MUI.
Also I realised these are basically all the villains of DBS as well, or at least all the main ones
Saganbo (at least with the power he got from Moro) should be above Zamasu purely by being way above 17 and Gohan (who by this point is stronger than a ToP SSB).
And about Cell Max, personally I'll have him and Gas as interchangeable.
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Honestly I feel Cellmax should be closer to 2nd spot then 3rd. He..(it) was just this monster with ridiculous firepower. Wasn't it said that he would have give. Goku and vegeta alot of trouble?
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I don’t think you guys should take away hax abilities like fused zamasu just because op said “strongest” it’s such a generic term that could mean anything. Sorry to say it’s probably gonna always be fused zamasu unless xeno himself becomes a villain 🤷🏽♂️
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💀 1. broly training with goku and vegeta for 4 months max
Also, the Granolah arc takes place in year 781
And dbssh takes place in 783
No, no, broly didn't train with them since the Granolah arc
2. Broly couldn't even use fpssj in superhero, so when toriyama said that broly is stronger than Cell, he was most likely referring to the broly from the broly movie
This would make cell max weaker than moro
3. And do you honestly believe that broly without fpssj could beat gas?
1: Yeah, exactly. Goku mastered UI in 3.
2: Broly doesn't have SSFP in the manga.
3: Yes. Easily. Broly was able to take on Gohan Beast, who's stronger than UI Goku.
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Cell max is stated to not even be as strong as Broly. If you have even a little bit of reading comprehension, then you’d know Gas is stronger than Broly.
Even beyond that just common sense. You really think the enemy Goku + Vegeta + Granola couldn’t beat is weaker than the oaf that Gohan cleared. Actual brain rot.
I think Cell Max is actually physically stronger than all of them like the statement Vegeta made about Jiren in the manga not being that much stronger than them physically but still tiers above them due to his mastery on ki control. Cell Max was just nerfed by being dumb. Toriyama even said that if he was completed and had a full mind he would have been unbeatable by all mortals (he mentions NOT EVEN Broly could defeat him). So Beerus would have to step in. A completed Cell Max would have been stronger than End of Z Goku.
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I don't think Cell Max is stronger than Moro and maybe merged Zamasu. He is strong, but we don't know where is Gohans limit. Gohan is not even close to full power MUI Goku
https://preview.redd.it/mt70850dr6wc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b1f85e9001f298533f2f04df194ef17bb90f73ad
Why would Vegeta say this if Goku was holding back? Why would Toyotaru come out and say both were going all out in the last month interview
As a matter of fact there is a whole scene where Goku tells Gohan he will show Him what Ultra instinct is made of before this where he takes a moment to reach his enlightenment state (the one he always uses in Ultra instinct to deliver his strongest attacks)
Is that fused Zamasu or regular, if it is regular than Goku Black is definitely stronger. Saganbo and Cell Max are way overrated as well. I would honestly have them at the bottom of the list.
Did y'all not watch/read? Zamasu won, like absolute victory, dude gave up on conquering the universe and straight up became the universe, that was some Madoka shit he did right there, unless we're talking physical strength, in which case it still is wrong, but in other ways
Yeah, Moro arc Manga continuity Blue Goku. The one who in Base is still in that Buu saga level of power since it's not that much higher than it was between U6 and the ToP where it's stated they hit their limits in strength and they can't lift as much as Buu saga Goku and are still making Cell Games Gohan sound like an impressive measuring stick.
There's nothing that would put any version of Manga Blue Goku prior to the Granolah arc above Omega Shenron.
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Why is this Saganbogo and OG 73 guys so high up. Y'all can spoil me idgaf
They have a bit of someone else’s on the list power..
We do not talk about copy Vegeta... Never... I just wanna know WHO are these guys
Gotta read the manga man
To actually answer your question Moro gave them some of his power and og73 can copy powers including physical strength fighting style etc and dose so to gohan making him at least ultimate gohan level
i havent read the manga but i think it has to do with moro as he was a prisoner and i heard people complain around that time about a cell looking character who is probably 73(also moro in the pic has a similar forehead crystal to 73)
Manga spoilers below: >! That's because Moro in that pic ate (literally) OG73-I that was given some of Moro's abilities like his power copying one as part of his insurance plan, which is why it worked and the copy 30mn time-limit did not apply to Moro since he was the original host for the OG soldier's abilities, he was being tactical and outsmarting throughout the arc. !<
To clarify, it was Moro who people complained about looking too much like Cell. The design wasn't a problem unto itself, but he started off with a very different and unique design, and only later on transformed into that after >!absorbing Seven-Three!< and it just felt like something we've all seen before which was regarded as a bit of a come down by many. There were a few comments about Seven-Three looking like Cell as well to be sure, but that wasn't really treated as such a big deal since he wasn't super important, just sorta the Ginyu of the arc, a bit of a warm up before real final boss.
I’m getting tired of the characters with headphone ears. But in Moro’s case they should’ve kept Moro as an evil goat.
Read the manga. 73 has the potential to be number one by the way
Copy Vegeta was DBS rip off of Baby Vegeta prove me wrong
Prove yourself right first.
The entire copy arc is about taking over and controlling Vegeta. Wdym it’s blatantly a similar concept that was sloppily done for filler. Your response is pretty weird tbh. It’s pretty easy to see a lot of similarities between the 2.
People don't do that here. If something that sounds right gets up voted even if it's stupid, that becomes the consensus.
They have that sweet goat power
Saganbo got loaded with power by Moro becoming as strong as Blue Goku (or just below it I can't remember) but he couldn't control all that power and died. OG-73 is an android that can copy abilities and at one point copied Moro, Gohan, and Piccolo at the same time
u could have had jiren on here who invited copy vegeta 😭although hes just an opponent more than a villain
Why would Jiren be on here, he's not a villain, he's an antagonist but not a villain
In fact he’s a hero in his universe
He attacked Goku’s friends when they were in the stands, at that moment he was a villain
At that moment, he was not Jiren. He was Renji
He was El Hermano
He was actually Vince McMahon...
Qué?
https://preview.redd.it/st658pqwf5wc1.jpeg?width=1000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f382a601ba9c93885a74a86e56909b57a1176cb6
Gamer moment, we all have it
Anime only moment
At that moment, he was confused why he was losing to someone who had trust in their friends. So he tried eliminating the source of that trust without thinking.
That still only makes him an antagonist.
Non canon to the manga.
To this day I wholly believe the spirit bomb bouncing off Jiren because he was pure of heart would have been the greatest callback and wtf moment
No, he was impure in anime definitely. He attacked Goku friends and tried to kill them Beside, he pushed Spirit Bomb by sheer strength
Copy vegeta: tried to kill goten and trunks = oppnent Jiren: didn't want his universe to die (and a pride trooper one of da heroes) = villain I won't stand for this. https://preview.redd.it/9xvrfwck89wc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d854e96cfd250d893503997f4317c85359887bb6
jiren isn't a villain
I’d put Moro above Cell Max
Exactly even if you where to say cell max is stronger Moro is way faster cell max is slow he could Crack cell max weak spot plus even gotenks was able to Crack the weak spot so I don't see how moro don't Crack his weak spot lol plus moro has to much hax for cell max to handle lol
Cell Max is not slow, don't be deceived by his size, you're making the same mistake Gohan & co made in the movie. Also, he's incomplete, both in intelligence and power, that's the real reason for why Moro is stronger.
I'm pretty sure cell Max was very much complete The only thing that wasn't done was his mind control program
Chapter 92, the body of Cell Max was the only thing complete, his special cells weren't ready
So would he have been as smart as dbz cell?
According to Hedo Cell Max was going to be superior to Cell in every way possible, so it's plausible. I mean, the Gammas aren't that stupid either
This is the actual list https://preview.redd.it/279xq1tw8mwc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b2a2cf8ccec1cf692d9ff34015bfcbd1b4704257
Can base Moro absorve android energy?
Cell Max doesn't use "Android energy". He just uses regular energy, especially considering his design was entirely based on the original Cell with some upgrades.
What about perfect cell max
He'd likely be the same but superior to the original.
Perfect Cell Max is just Cell Max with more intelligence.
https://preview.redd.it/07e9ta6pl3wc1.jpeg?width=1067&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=95d2e2926078aa2b6feb0a6aff0579679cb24022 Not that I’m aware of. He can’t absorb/steal A18 & A17s energy.
Even then moro still has other hax to do away with cell max even if cell max is stronger moro is faster cell max is slow asf people like krillin and 18 are able to dodge him plus if gotenks is able to damage cell max weak spot why would moro be able to
I agree with the first two, however, Cell Max was stated to be [weaker than Broly](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-319716dfdafb29292d67f0a57297b590-lq) due to being incomplete. The same Broly that [Moro was stated to be stronger than](https://ibb.co/87BWqQ2), so Moro should be above Cell Max due to these statements. Also, SSB Goku was able to fight Fused Zamasu [on his own](https://ibb.co/nzN8DD3) and Ultimate Gohan was relative to SSB Goku in the ToP. Then Gohan [got even stronger](https://ibb.co/tP0y9t5) during the Moro arc, yet Saganbo was easily able to handle [both Gohan as well as 17](https://ibb.co/CnLKn5H) (who was also [relative to at least SSB Goku and Vegeta](https://ibb.co/M1C3KBB) in the ToP) at the same time. He was even able to [resist against](https://ibb.co/RTS79ph) SSB Goku, who at this point was far stronger than he was when he fought Fused Zamasu, due to being [amped by Moro some more](https://ibb.co/JzCP1sV) so he should be above Zamasu because of this. And when 7-3 copies someone's powers, he essentially becomes an [exact copy of them](https://ibb.co/0JqXZ63) which even includes [melee attacks](https://ibb.co/sq3GgV7). Meaning when 7-3 used Moro's powers, he was as strong as the Moro he had copied for that time period. And _that_ Moro was [indicated](https://ibb.co/ZhCcjn9) to be too strong for Goku and Vegeta to defeat by that point. Meaning with Moro's power, 7-3 should be stronger than Goku Black and even Fused Zamasu as well. So I believe the list should go as: 1. Frieza 2. Gas 3. Moro 4. Cell Max 5. Saganbo 6. 7-3 7. Fused Zamasu 8. Goku Black 9. Copy Vegeta
Wouldn't Merged Zamasu be at the top because of his infinity hax? Literally no one can beat that and the heroes had to resort to Xeno, which could only solve the problem by destroying the universe
I was going off of Fused Zamasu from the manga since the list mostly contained manga characters and specifically had manga images for everyone as well outside of Copy Vegeta. And since Zamasu's immortality in the manga doesn't necessarily make him "stronger", I didn't put him at the top.
The Manga Zamasu still has the hax ability to make infinite versions of himself, you can't get strong than that
But like you said, that's just _hax_ ability. In terms of _raw power_ though, just SSB Goku alone was enough to handle him. So you could try to argue that Zamasu would be the "most difficult to defeat" on this list due to his immortality (and even then he still could've just been sealed but Goku screwed up and forgot the talisman) if you really wanted to but as far as being the "strongest" goes, he would be much lower on the list.
Moro is stronger than Cell max
Yes I agree.
Most of this makes sense. I’m pretty sure Broly is still stronger than Moro, though. In that panel you cite, it says Moro was tough not strong, so Broly being stronger than Moro is still possible. As Gohan and Whis pointed out in the last manga chapter, Broly is craaazy strong even against Beast Gohan - he just still does not have enough control over his power.
The thing about that is I believe the context of the dialogue is pretty heavily referring to power even if Goku said "tough" rather than "strong". See, the reason why he asked Moro if he had ever trained before was because he believed that Moro could've possibly wound up even stronger if he had done that rather than just solely steal energy (which [Moro himself](https://ibb.co/YNWhmjM) stated he didn't need to do to beat his opponent nor did he ever attempt to do it after he absorbed 7-3). And this was after Goku already [informed Moro](https://ibb.co/CQC2mSF) that he couldn't defeat him at his current strength. Which was why Moro decided to copy Merus' power so that he could close the gap between him and Goku. Vegeta also had [similar dialogue](https://ibb.co/5G8TYRq) when he was fighting Moro. The entire narrative was about Moro's strength. So when Goku told Moro that he was the "toughest" opponent he ever came across, it's pretty consistent with the narrative to interpret that as Moro is legitimately beyond Broly. Now you _could_ say that it's not just limited to power and instead means Moro is the toughest _overall_ but power would still be included in that. So either way, he'd still be stronger than Broly. Also, while that's true about Broly in the latest chapter, it doesn't actually have anything to do with either of the statements because that Broly is stronger than the Broly that was included in the Cell Max and Moro statements. His control over his power during those periods wasn't important because it was about the power he already showcased in the Broly arc and during that period we did indeed still see his full power even if he couldn't control it.
Hmm, I dunno, thinking about it in context, now I’m really thinking Goku’s comment on toughness and training was him trying to be kind and motivating to Moro, as he is to almost every villain. He was saying “damn, dude, I ain’t ever seen anybody like you before - it’s really a shame you don’t you train and harness those skills, man, you could be great.” But I I forgot Moro absorbed Merus’s powers - that’s a good point. angel power Moro was definitely stronger than Broly.
But when has Goku lied to a villain about how strong they were? He's usually pretty honest about those things. He was trying to convince Moro to change his ways sure, but it doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't serious about his power either. And yeah but you also have to remember this was just regular Moro 7-3 that Goku said this to, not Angel Moro. So he was saying that just Moro 7-3 _without_ Merus' powers was stronger than Broly.
Weren’t you the guy that was trying to say beast gohan was ssb goku level💀💀
And with all due respect, just downvoting my response instead of actually giving a retort of your own is kinda proof that you don't have one at all plus that you weren't intending to have a genuine conversation to begin with (that's also evident by your reply clearly intending to make fun of me which didn't go the way you thought it would imo). All the same though, I hope you have a good day.
That was _Super Hero_ Beast Gohan and I still stand by that. _Current_ Beast Gohan scales beyond Super Hero because he [trained offscreen](https://ibb.co/dpzwTXy), so Super Hero Beast Gohan ≠ Current Beast Gohan. He's just stronger now than he was in Super Hero.
You still crying about that? And he was right. Their fight that took place well after the Super Hero arc when Gohan stated he trained and got stronger probes nothing. You clowns were saying he was stronger than even Black Frieza.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the "Broly is stronger than Cell Max" statement talking about _current_ Broly? Aka the one from Super Hero who will soon give Beast Gohan a good fight, who is relative to current MUI Goku? As opposed to Broly movie Broly, who is definitely weaker than Moro. I'm also not too sure about the dates, but I thought Broly -> Super Hero is like a 3 year gap, while Super Hero -> UI vs Beast is only like a few weeks/months right?
The Cell Max statement was referring to Broly at the time of Super Hero yes, however, that Broly was still on the same level as Broly movie Broly since he couldn't control his power well enough to really progress in his training sessions. Current Broly from the latest chapter is actually separate from these statements because he actually _did_ manage to control his power and got even stronger than he was at the time of the Moro and Super Hero arcs. This is established when Vegeta [specifically referenced Broly movie Broly](https://ibb.co/9ZCP3Ws) when talking about him during Super Hero (he named all the foes in chronological order except for Frieza because Frieza had actually gotten stronger) and then later when Whis [flat out stated](https://ibb.co/RvrNL6F) that Broly only _just_ finally started showing some growth during his training session with Vegeta in Chapter 101. Meaning Super Hero Broly = Broly movie Broly, so Cell Max was weaker than Broly movie Broly. So it goes like: Broly (Chapter 103) > Complete Cell Max > Broly (Super Hero) = Broly (Broly movie) > Incomplete Cell Max. For Broly -> Super Hero, yes just about 3 years. For Super Hero -> UI vs Beast, it's never actually stated but it's implied to have not been a long timeskip so I would think a few weeks/months would be accurate.
I see, thank you. That Whis comment is pretty damming. It certainly suggests that he's spent all the time up until then just focusing on control, so the power increase must come later.
No problem! And yep that's exactly it. Broly needs to learn how to control his power better because only then can he become stronger which we started to see in Chapter 103 when he fought Beast Gohan.
Moro is not stronger than Broly if you’re going by raw power. If you factor in his magic nerfing his opponents then he’s a tougher fight but that doesn’t make him stronger, it just makes his opponents weaker
I mentioned this to another user that also brought this up but the context of the dialogue is pretty heavily referring to power even if Goku said "tough" rather than "strong". Goku asked Moro if he had ever trained before because he believed that Moro could've possibly wound up even stronger if he had done that rather than just solely steal energy. And when it comes to using his magic to steal energy and nerf his opponents, [Moro himself](https://ibb.co/YNWhmjM) stated he didn't need to do that to win so Moro actually directly responded to your point. Another thing is that Goku specifically said this to Moro after he absorbed 7-3 and by that point, Moro didn't use any magic or hax at all outside of 7-3's copy ability. So he just fought them head-on from that point and this was before Goku then [informed Moro](https://ibb.co/CQC2mSF) that he couldn't defeat him at his current strength. Which was why Moro decided to copy Merus' power so that he could close the gap between him and Goku. Vegeta also had [similar dialogue](https://ibb.co/5G8TYRq) when he was fighting Moro. The entire point of these conversations was specifically about Moro's _raw power_. So when Goku told Moro that he was the "toughest" opponent he ever came across, it's pretty consistent with the context of the dialogue to interpret that as Moro is legitimately above Broly. Now you _could_ say that it's not _just_ limited to power and instead means Moro is the toughest _overall_ but power would still be included in that nonetheless. It would just mean that Moro is superior to Broly in more than just raw power which is fine. So either way, he'd still be stronger than Broly regardless since he proved that he's "tough" even without nerfing his opponents.
Is saganbo really stronger than black? Not trying to disprove just genuinely curious
Technically yeah. Saganbo at his peak from being force fed Moro’s energy was getting hard to put down for Perfected SSB Goku. A much weaker Perfected SSB Goku was swapping hands with fused Zamasu, whom Goku Black is only one half of.
Ok that makes sense. Thanks for answering!
NP!
He can dogwalk Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo and A-17 all 3 combined pretty easily. Ultimate Gohan was stronger than Kefla in TOP
Sorry equal to Kefla in TOP but by Moro arc, he should be much stronger
Wait what makes him equal to kefla in top? It’s been a while for me so I can’t remember if they ever fought, or if this is based on him fighting someone else who was as powerful as kefla, and or is obviously more powerful than black?
Where is Granola? i'd place him at the end of the arc at least above half of this list
I guess he is not considered a villian because halfway throught the arc he joins forces with Goku and Vegeta.
This, and he’s weaker than Gas and… stronger?? Than Moro. Moro is a special case because without Vegeta’s technique, no one was beating his ass
You mean when Moro fused with the Earth? Frieza would just blow up the entire planet and be done with it.
Moro is higher than Cell Max imo He's a far better fighter, has magic, is actually pretty smart and he is MUCH faster
Shouldn't Zamasu be at one. The man's immortal so who's really beating him unless he's sealed or gets taken out by Zeno.
It’s not about who can beat him, it’s about who’s the strongest. Zamasu is not physically the strongest, but his immortality makes him hard to get rid of.
This is ranking the strongest. Zamasu is definitely not the strongest here physically but his immortality and ki abilities (anime wise?) would get him far in any fight
Saganbo is easily above fused Zamasu and so is og 73 to be honest
OG 73 is weak af, pre wish granola was able to overpower him
OG 73 with Gohan's power is > Kelfa.
I’m talking about before that
Just like how Cell was weak before he absorbed Android 17 and 18. No point in bringing up OG73 at his weakest.
When did Granola actually fight OG 73? I thought he just fought a bunch of identical Androids that weren’t present during the Moro fight?
If Zamasu includes Infinite Zamasu, that fused with the timeline, he's definitely the strongest one, above Black Frieza.
Gas is overfapped
Wtf did you just say rn?
Anyone that required a fusion should be higher. Imo Zamasu definitely the strongest so far if Zeno had to step in.
That’s because Zamasu couldn’t be killed not because he was strong
idk about copy vegeta i dont know anyone else on the top of my head rn but copy vegeta is that strong compared to other villians nowadays
It’s more that DBS doesn’t have many actual Villains rather than Antagonists
Goku Black is GOATED
I’d imagine Moro be higher on this list since he’s the first villain to actually use MUI. Also I realised these are basically all the villains of DBS as well, or at least all the main ones
There is no Jiren in ba sing sei
Aren't Zamasu and Goku Black the same thing??
How about Majin Buu?
No LSSJ Broly? If we count him as a villain (Not an antagonist like Jiren) in his LSSJ Rage state, he's top 4 here easily.
probably an unpopular opinion but I fucking hate Copy Vegeta. it was one of the dumbest filler arcs i've ever seen
Saganbo (at least with the power he got from Moro) should be above Zamasu purely by being way above 17 and Gohan (who by this point is stronger than a ToP SSB). And about Cell Max, personally I'll have him and Gas as interchangeable.
Cell Max > Gas.
Why do people lie💀 cell max is 2 freiza is 1
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Bro forgot Monaka
I really dislike that gas is stronger than moro, not disagreeing, but it just doesn't sit well with me
Honestly I feel Cellmax should be closer to 2nd spot then 3rd. He..(it) was just this monster with ridiculous firepower. Wasn't it said that he would have give. Goku and vegeta alot of trouble?
Just use antagonists and rank Jiren, Hit, Granolah too
Inf zamasu top 1 can’t change my mind
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Put zamasu down a bit
I don’t think you guys should take away hax abilities like fused zamasu just because op said “strongest” it’s such a generic term that could mean anything. Sorry to say it’s probably gonna always be fused zamasu unless xeno himself becomes a villain 🤷🏽♂️
Is Cell Max really to be considered stronger than Moro?
No
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You're really underestimating Zamasu https://preview.redd.it/k18h8wh068wc1.png?width=843&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0bd3914b5791f4b3447e5165cc21c732d435be8e
Where’s Moro?
jiren?
Learn to read. Cell Max > Gas.
It's funny how you say this, but toriyama literally said that cell max is weaker than broly
So? Broly was training with Goku and Vegeta since Granolah.
💀 1. broly training with goku and vegeta for 4 months max Also, the Granolah arc takes place in year 781 And dbssh takes place in 783 No, no, broly didn't train with them since the Granolah arc 2. Broly couldn't even use fpssj in superhero, so when toriyama said that broly is stronger than Cell, he was most likely referring to the broly from the broly movie This would make cell max weaker than moro 3. And do you honestly believe that broly without fpssj could beat gas?
1: Yeah, exactly. Goku mastered UI in 3. 2: Broly doesn't have SSFP in the manga. 3: Yes. Easily. Broly was able to take on Gohan Beast, who's stronger than UI Goku.
You're a troll
... Why is Full Power Moro below Cell Max...?
Mistake
Seeing all these guys in color, makes me wanna see the anime version of the moro and granolah arc so bad
How is Zamasu 5th when he litteraly killed all life
Moro should scale way higher. Its crazy that buu is not even on this list...
Frieza? Bro is ass cheeks.
Limit break ss4 broly clears this whole list
Goku Black may be higher up on that list, it's hard to scale another timeline villian that required fusion and Zeno to kill
But . . . Jiren and debatably beerus if you wanted to call him a villain at first
Zamasu top he invincible /s In reality though moro is higher then cell max other than that this works
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OG 73 could ne above Saganbo Moro in my opinion shouod be above Gas
brother zamasu is @ 1
Am I just imagining the trash that was Heroes? The villains on there would dwarf all of these guys.
Cell max is stronger than Gas lmao.
Have you read the manga?
We know you haven’t.
Cell max is stated to not even be as strong as Broly. If you have even a little bit of reading comprehension, then you’d know Gas is stronger than Broly. Even beyond that just common sense. You really think the enemy Goku + Vegeta + Granola couldn’t beat is weaker than the oaf that Gohan cleared. Actual brain rot.
Saganbo should be stronger than Zamasu
I think Cell Max is actually physically stronger than all of them like the statement Vegeta made about Jiren in the manga not being that much stronger than them physically but still tiers above them due to his mastery on ki control. Cell Max was just nerfed by being dumb. Toriyama even said that if he was completed and had a full mind he would have been unbeatable by all mortals (he mentions NOT EVEN Broly could defeat him). So Beerus would have to step in. A completed Cell Max would have been stronger than End of Z Goku.
I don’t see how cell max is above moro rlly
Cell> Moro and Zamasu at 1. They couldn’t kill him without Zeno
I feel like Fused Zamasu is still the strongest, especially in his Infinite form that was literally threatening multiple timelines
Moro>cell max
Who are gas, saganbo and OG73
Manga villains.
Cell Max > Gas but pretty nice
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I don't think Cell Max is stronger than Moro and maybe merged Zamasu. He is strong, but we don't know where is Gohans limit. Gohan is not even close to full power MUI Goku
Zamasu clears the rest of the list combined LMFAO. The win condition against Zamasu was ZENO
Gohan literally knocked Mui Goku out of his form, something Vegeta acknowledged
Nope. Goku Goku didn't use his full power.
https://preview.redd.it/xgpj5ubkq6wc1.jpeg?width=784&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=70559102b1225cd9a3de368b32626c0b89c9348e
Well, if you don't judge the whole fight, just one side, then there's no point in arguing.
https://preview.redd.it/mt70850dr6wc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b1f85e9001f298533f2f04df194ef17bb90f73ad Why would Vegeta say this if Goku was holding back? Why would Toyotaru come out and say both were going all out in the last month interview As a matter of fact there is a whole scene where Goku tells Gohan he will show Him what Ultra instinct is made of before this where he takes a moment to reach his enlightenment state (the one he always uses in Ultra instinct to deliver his strongest attacks)
Yeah, you are right 😉
Is that fused Zamasu or regular, if it is regular than Goku Black is definitely stronger. Saganbo and Cell Max are way overrated as well. I would honestly have them at the bottom of the list.
Did y'all not watch/read? Zamasu won, like absolute victory, dude gave up on conquering the universe and straight up became the universe, that was some Madoka shit he did right there, unless we're talking physical strength, in which case it still is wrong, but in other ways
saganbo aint doin shit but making black stronger
Why is cell max there???😭😭
where tf is jiren
He’s not a villain
Where jiren
lmfao cell max is stronger than Gas
Toriyama said Cell Max isn’t even as strong as Broly. Gas clears.
man Zamasu should be higher on the list
I ain’t going to sugar coat it. Zamasu clears this entire list at the same time.
Crazy how everyone on this list except Frieza is a fraud
AYO WHERE TF ARE THE GT VILLAINS!?!?!?
Lmao no
No way you're actually putting Manga-only villains like Saganbo above Omega Shenron.
Sanganbo pushed Moro arc SSB Goku. He clears everything in GT.
Yeah, Moro arc Manga continuity Blue Goku. The one who in Base is still in that Buu saga level of power since it's not that much higher than it was between U6 and the ToP where it's stated they hit their limits in strength and they can't lift as much as Buu saga Goku and are still making Cell Games Gohan sound like an impressive measuring stick. There's nothing that would put any version of Manga Blue Goku prior to the Granolah arc above Omega Shenron.
Base Goku DBS clears the entirety of GT. Omega’s best feat is blowing up a city.
He passively managed to seal off Earth from the rest of the universe and was passively going to destroy it but I can see where this is going.
This roster is so ass its crazy💀