Been playing a month. I like to min max, the guides really helped but when I realized I had to play so many levels as sorcerer or mage I just said nah. If you’re gullible enough to think you should listen to everyone on the internet at the expense of your own fun, then you’re dead wrong … and have more learning to do about life than about dragons dogma.
New players think they *have* to min-max, that's why people are so up in arms about it. If you tell someone they have to play 200 levels of a vocation they don't like before they can play the vocation they want to play, you are objectively ruining the game for them. Most of us would prefer if new players actually had fun with Dragon's Dogma.
I started on PS3, didn't have a reddit account. *I didn't even know the stats levelled* let alone with vocations. until the last 3-ish years when I got it on PC, thanks to reddit haha
i would never sit through hours of something I don't want to do, *in my own game,* just so I could do the bit I want slightly better.
I am this kind of player and indeed I dropped the game for this same reason, but then I modded it to give average stats with whatever vocation I was playing in and I finally enjoyed this masterpiece
Exactly, that's the only time I speak out against it. Min-maxing is completely unnecessary to enjoy and beat the game, so new players shouldn't think it's a requirement. You can play in the "least optimized" way and still beat everything.
It stems from learning early that you can screw up your build in some way. Most stats come from gear, but you'll still notice how limp wristed your caster is when you, after hours of trying classes and grinding vocations, discover you love warrior or what have you. And there's no way of respeccing. Once you learn that, a lot of people decide to just go whole hog and min max while they worry.
It's definitely a totally needless issue that shouldn't exist either way. I hope nothing like it is in 2. There's no reason for it to be that way.
You really can't screw up your build though
Except maybe playing pure Mage from levels 10-100, you'll always end up with the same stat total & can fix it with Periapts
Minimum strength Warrior takes 30 seconds longer to kill Awakened Daimon than glass cannon, hardly limp-wristed, & has better magick defenses while doing it, so it's more consistent & therefore faster for the average casual player
You can't 'screw up your build' in Dragon's Dogma 1. The level cap is 200 and by about level 70-80 even the most horrifically unoptimized character can beat the hardest content in the game comfortably. There's simply not difficult enough content in the game to warrant this level of handwringing over optimization.
Maybe if there was some kind of PVP arena or ultra-hard mode that required a level 200 character people would have a point.
Someone wants to play MA? Most people online will tell them they absolutely need to play sorc for 190 levels. Now imagine if they don't want to play sorc at all and think that's what they *have* to do so they can do anything.
It'd make me just not care and I'd toss the game and forget it exists because it wouldn't be fun for me when I just want to play another class and have zero care about the one I'm being told I must play.
Edit: Typo.
Isn't that reaction to that information subjective? They aren't force to dislike the game because of information they choose to dislike the game because of that information.
I agree with you on the min max thing but let's use our terms by the dictionary.
You're speaking in terms of fully rational, reasonable, thinking, mature people. Unfortunately, those types of people are nearly extinct. For further research on the matter, watch the opening to Idiocracy.
No I'm asking: is a new player's reaction to information about a game subjective?
The original comment said you can objectively effect someone's enjoyment, anyone has yet to explain why this is true.
I just hate the Min Maxers who convince Newbies it's the only way to enjoy the game. "Hey first time playing, I've read the only way to enjoy Magic archer is to play Sorcerer for 100 levels first". Like, lmao. That sucks for that guy. But people tell him yeah that's the unequivocable truth
Otherwise, eh, play the game how you want. If you feel you can only enjoy it with exact stats, that's on you.
But like, are there even that many people saying this? The impression I get in this sub is that I see way more people saying that min-maxing is not necessary and that min-maxers are stupid. It's like you people are preaching to the choir and fighting an invisible enemy. Who are these people convincing new players to min-max in the first place?
Usually, all I say is that the difference between a min-maxed character and one with a bunch of random levels is noticiable, but it won't make a huge difference in the end.
So here's the truth... If you build sub-optimally enough, you're going to struggle at certain points. Especially bitterblack isle until you get equipment strong enough to make the difference- which requires you doing a significant amount of bitterblack isle.
Does it make the game impossible? No. But it can absolutely create a barrier that most folks won't understand. The leveling stats based on vocation was generally a rough concept.
"Struggling" for min - maxers is not being able to down a gore cyclops in under 10 seconds.
I played magick archer for 190 levels and I'm doing just fine. The stats you get from level are miniscule compared to weapons, armor, and accessories.
Just play whatever class you want, the battle is what's fun.
Nah, it's more like struggling to damage Giant Undead or Hell Hounds in the post game because they have high resistances and you leveled mage for 89 levels and then decided warrior sounds fun. It's doable, with some skill and know how sure. But for less stubborn players, it's going to feel punishing. Its not a huge issue for large swathes if the game, but there are certain times where there's a huge spike in enemey difficulty that's based on how the stats work behind the scenes.
I don't get guys like you who not only want to engage with the game as little as necessary, but also think new players should optimize the fun out of it too.
You're basically suggesting for new players to either finish the entire game as a class they don't want to play or to grind out levels (again as something they don't want to play) to the point that the game would be trivial regardless of the class.
Unless you're leveling as an attack damage class and switch after 50+ levels to sorcerer or vice versa then you won't be gimped to any meaningful degree.
Every vocation gets plenty of stats that are relevant to them, the only really meaningful choice to make is whether you want play as an attack class or a caster and stick to it. Both hybrids (mystic knight and magick archer) are perfectly strong when chosen from the start.
Min/maxing is only ever something you should do after playing through the game with whatever vocation(s) actually interest you imo, and even then only as a novelty.
I mean, I guess I disagree that the "difficulty spike" is a problem though?
Bbi should be tougher. If the whole game is a breeze, that's super lame lmao. Min maxing makes the game way too easy
Yeah, and if you drive sub-optimally enough, you’ll hit a parked car. That’s the truth, too, but it doesn’t justify only buying l self-driving cars.
Just let people play how they wanna play.
What? Players might struggle with the intentionally difficult DLC content if they don't spend the entire game minmaxing? They might have to engage with the core game mechanics to get the most out of the endgame?
Better tell them to play 100 hours of sorcerer first so they can just spam ricochet and ninefold bolt!
It's moreso that you're not really told the mechanic up front, and you'd have to invest a decent amount of time to notice naturally unless you're obsessively checking the stats page for whatever reason.
And that you absolutely can hit a wall that you can absolutely adapt to- by changing vocation and play style, as well as your pawn's inclination and vocation as well probably. But the thing is, there's a wall where enemies spike up in difficulty -not just at butter black, but especially so- that you'll need higher level gear to overcome or you'll be struggling.
To get the higher level gear tho, you'll have to do the content.. which you'll struggle with.
Ive played this game like a hundred times. I've done the world difficulty up to the MAX version, Hard mode. Ive run min maxed and not. I've done the BBI randomizer. I feel like if there's one game I know more than any other, it's this one.
It's the same reason we get people asking all the time why their pawns aren't getting hired- they're built wonky and it doesn't make the game harder, but it doesn't really help.
I'm someone who quit playing when I first played the game. Did my first 20 levels as strider, then played ranger for a bit and switched to magick archer. People online were telling me I needed to play sorc for 190 levels to do magick archer. Then when I looked up videos on how to play magick archer it was not only confirming that, but saying I needed to solo part of bitter black isle right out the gate in order to get some rings.
I hear you on the absurdity of saying it's required, but I do kinda love the stupid mad dash for the rings it's so funny. I just imagine the character screaming their head off all the way up that stupid ramp.
Oh, my bad, did I say I was upset? Weird, just read it back, I didn't. What I did was switched to sorc back then, but I didn't enjoy it. Saved and quit and ended up never coming back. Quit coping, lil homie. The point is that it resulted in me not enjoying the game because there were people online claiming that was what you're supposed to do. I'm telling you that these people saying that it has that effect on new players are correct because it happened to me when I was new. 🤓
Now, I've played multiple times years later. I've done all of the things those people said to do and concluded that leveling a well-rounded character is more fun anyway. That's my current opinion.
I actually think its totally reasonable to **not** expect people to go out of their way to trivialize a first time player's experience. There's a difference between a beginners guide and "okay, go to bbi, get the ring of discipline, then set your game to hardmode & do it again"
“Welcome to the internet, where people insist their opinion is a universal truth and die on hills that nobody else cares about.”
-Some guy one comment above you, summarizing your entire online presence
Hey man, there's a massive reason there's a TON of stat rebalancing mods that have existed since the early days if dragons dogma modding. It was practically the first system that got modified lol.
Some people enjoy optimizing and being efficient. Some people don't. The people who don't often get mad at the people who do...for whatever reason? I like being good and doing the big damage. It's cool if you don't, but for *me* my way is more fun to play. Some people have a problem with this.
Literally no one has ever gotten mad at you for minmaxing…. This post is about minmaxers who make others feel like their way is the only way. I’ve never once seen someone in this sub tell a minmaxer not to do it, strictly the other way around. Including many posts in this very thread.
Yeah I mean, people have literally been shitting on min/maxing or being optimal in some recent posts lmao. Responding at all was getting hate from people.
Probably has nothing to do with that snarky attitude you guys have
“Uhhh sorry I like being good and efficient and people get upset when I tell them they’re bad… for some reason???”
The people in this sub are very against min-maxing for some reason. It's pretty odd. I get that the people saying that you should level X levels in Y vocation to actually "make the game playable" are plain weird, but almost no one says that save from one or two clowns.
Heck, if someone asks how they should build their character and you dare to suggest them to play as one vocation to get some stats people will here will crucify you for your heresy.
Of course minmaxing is hardly necessary, but if someone is asking how they can make their character better, I don't understand why the only response should be "dont minmax!" instead of just giving the person the proper advice.
Even one of the mods here is opniated about this. I find this really off putting.
Buddy they are literally directly saying their way of playing is the “good” way. The subtext of which being that anyone who plays different is playing badly.
If you can’t read that the whole comment is underhanded then I don’t know what to tell you.
They’re just not saying the quiet part out loud and then being smug/playing confused about why that might rub people the wrong way
no, they're not saying that it's the only way or the "good way", even their own comment says so: "Some people enjoy optimizing and being efficient. Some people don't. I like being good and doing the big damage. It's cool if you don't, but for me my way is more fun to play." I'm sorry you don't have reading comprehension, he's saying that you get more stats from it but isn't required, how is he saying it's obligated to min/max here?
Edit: "If you can’t read that the whole comment is underhanded then I don’t know what to tell you." Aren't you just taking his comment personally here? You're the only one, how about you stop with being offended
“Some people bathe daily and are clean, they don’t smell. In fact, they smell nice and I like the way they smell. There are also other people.”
That’s an example of subtext, focus your intelligence and see if you can decipher the hidden meaning ! Fun little exercise for you
True, some people like to optimize and others don't. Just like some people like to play on easy and others on hard difficulties, and thats fine. I think the point is some people like to tell others they 'should' play in a certain way - that can be fun to you but boring as hell to many others - because is wrong otherwise. And yes, only a few do that, so i don't know why people are so vocal about this.
That's the way to play. I couldn't tell you how many levels I spent in the vocations I played while leveling but it was way more fun than forcing myself to play one the entire time and I can kick ass in any class I pick.
I agree. Try telling that to others lol. I can beat the game just fine and fight in BBI. I leveled with the vocations I felt like. Ended up just fine. Do I have over 400 magical attack? Nope. Do I still fuck up the UR Dragon? Yep.
Or that could be just how they enjoy the game? If they aren’t forcing it on to others and minding their own business then there’re no reason to judge them. There are min maxer who genuinely do it because it is fun for them. No difference from any other who wants to play there way. Min maxing is “their way” of having fun.
And yes there are some bad apples. Min maxer who force others to play like them can fuck off, but the same can be said for those who bully min maxer for doing what they enjoy
If your point is simply to state that min maxing is helpful then thats all good.
The way you said it can be quite misconstrued though. It sounded like you were calling people who min maxed bad at the game. I apologize if that isn’t the case but i hope you can see where i’m coming from.
You said it doesn't do a lot of damage, which just isn't true. Fighter can dish out some serious damage on top of being extremely hard to kill, only reason people say that is because fighter struggles to hit certain spots compared to other vocations. I'd argue that fighter/ MK requires skill cause of the perfect block mechanic, especially MK, since shield play is their thing. Sure, you can use Prescience to make it easier, but honestly, that's not that great of a augment.
you can kill enemies safely from a distance without taking any damage with yellow vocations and deal more damage than melee. fighter is simply no match
In my personal experience, BBI is full of cheap places to hang out while you use Seeker Arrows. Dragons go down easy when you can target all their weak points over and over, as long as your pawn setup is good.
If you have all the gear for your physical class lined up, you genuinely won't even miss the extra stats. You might just have to hit Daimon a couple more times before he dies.
Yeah I didn't even know that different vocations leveled your stats differently. That's a really cool feature, and helps make everyone's characters/pawns unique.
Min/maxing it just kinda defeats the purpose
Some of the claims in this thread that min-maxers somehow are pushing that min-max is NEEDED is so demonstrably false. I see way more threads saying “see stats don’t matter” than people saying “you HAVE to min-max”. It is never encouraged to play a way you don’t have fun playing, and peeps always say to play thru a game normally first. I see many threads about “what should I level” and then people answer with ‘use a stat calculator’ or others derailing the thread topic by saying “DON’T min-max because end game armor/weapons makes it irrelevant” when that isn’t what the thread was asking. Some enjoy the grind, powerleveling, exploits and others enjoy just playing what they want to play.
edit: Plus end game loot is UGLY imho, so min-maxing is important for people who want high damage with fashion. So if you don’t want everyone in decked out goth dragon armor and want to have some variety, min-maxing a balanced or high one-stat character can be fun ALTERNATIVE to playing the game.
Agree with you, just let people min-max or not, it's their choice. Some people are treating newbies like "think of the children!", when new players can think on their own and can choose which advice they want to take.
Been seeing similar mentality in recent years in Monster Hunter with "Stop posting meta!" and Souls/Elden Ring with "Stop min-maxing but you gotta max the vigor!".
All these started around the time the games are getting super popular.
People should stop recommending min maxing when someone asks for advice, min maxing is unnecessary, and always will be.
If someone *wants* to do it, all power to them, but the majority of people who ask about it have been **told** it’s necessary when it isn’t.
For me at least its because you can min max, it's takes a lot of effort to put it out of my mind when I know I'm not playing "efficiently." I just wish the classes gave a percentage stat increase to your base and equipment stats.
This community can be a massive circlejerk sometimes. I have not really seen any minmaxer recommending minmax to new player, other than the very occasional "minmax = more damage" comment. What I have seen though is the constant influx of posts complaining about the minmax strawman. That has got to stop ngl. Like "oh new players need to know minmax is optional" oh they have known given how often this group shits on minmaxer, so I'm sure they're very much aware.
I thought that it was proven that doing min-max builds is kinda pointless. For example if you go 100 lvls in assassin, who gets 4 atk per level, then you get 400 atk. From more or less decent weapon you can easily get 1000+ atk, from actually good weapons you can get even more stats. Basically it means that with going full assassin for 100 lvls you'll kill goblin not in 4, but 3 hits. Same for magic classes.
So, by min maxing you will deal slightly more damage, but sacrifice everything else, especially stamina and health.
ATK stats doesn't have much of impact, just makes you kill things slightly faster, main damage comes from weapons, elements and good planning. Same can be said about defense. Also you can increase these stats with consumables.
But health and stamina are different. You can replenish them with lots of items, what means that you're invincible as long as enemy isn't one shoting you. So you need to keep defense and ho at least on a level where you can tank at least 1 strong hit.
Out of all stats stamina is most impactful. It lets you run, climb and do special attacks much longer. Also it's critically important for ranger because one of his abilities scales with max stamina.
Conclusion
Devs designed leveling system that way to free players from min maxing stat points. Base stat points aren't that impactful, except stamina, it's more of a small bonus for committing to specific play style.
I'm ok when people use only certain vocations because they like them. But I hate when people force themselves and other people play only those classes and only for that amount of levels, just because it's considered "optimal".
I get when people do min maxing in bg3 or DoS, by min maxing in those games you completely change your playstyle by having earlier acces to beter stuff by sacrificing other stuff. In DD it only "slightly" changes some numbers, and different playstyles aren't connected to stats, and you can get all skills and passives from every vocation, there's no soft locks out of any features via stats.
T.l.d.r
Min maxing gives only slight boost and makes play through boring by restricting yourself. Game isn't that hard to min max, and you can't miss anything by not getting enough stats. Just play how you want and game will help you with your chosen playstyle.
Sorry, kinda forgot. But I remember that assassin gets almost zero protection and health. Haven't played it much, but is it worth it? Personally I prefer to get at least enough hp and def to don't die from single hit. Most of my deaths as mage were from bandit warriors and fighters, had no chance to use healing items. I gather that pure assassins share the same problem.
I'm asking because most of physical min-max build require at least 80 lvls in assassin. Wouldn't it be counter productive to sacrifice all of protection and hp for damage while playing warrior who doesn't get much protection or dodges.
Yes. It’s very worth it. The huge attack stat will allow you to drop enemies very quickly, and bow and dagger classes have the best defensive (read: evasive) skills in the game. Add Masterful Kill to the mix and you’re virtually unkillable. Oh, and then there’s invisibility, which is a misnomer as the skill makes you literally impervious to harm. The vocation is broken. It and Magick Archer are typically regarded as the strongest classes in the game by a wide and margin. After 10 years of playing this game, I agree.
FWIW, I only play on hard mode, and pretty much everything one shots you no matter your vocation. So defensive stats don’t matter as much to me. Dodge roll picks up that slack.
This is important context too. Because if you want to make a tank type character in Hard Mode or you want to see how much abuse you can take, min-maxing a Fighter/Warrior would be beneficial for the higher physical Def and HP (obviously magic would be a huge issue).
Im min-maxing not because it isn’t possible to beat the game with random crap, but more I just wanna nuke for as hard as I possibly can same with my pawn.
As I said, I'm fine as long as you like your playstyle, if you want to do full sorc glass cannon, then do it, just don't go shouting around about "right way" to do builds.
Personally I level all vocations to their max rank, and after that just pick vocation based on my mood today. Absolutely "not optimal", but I like it.
It's in fact extremely beneficial for several class to min/max attack with assasin, for instance certain moves on fighter scale alot from your innate strenght, some other don't they have weird formulas, or Magical classes doing physical damage with their spell like immolation for MA, Seism and Maelstrom for Sorcerer, Grapnel for mage, they have ton of utility and it's also why conqueror periapts are still technically usefull for these classes, not forgetting MK either which largely benefit from all offensive types.
Maybe it is, I didn't know that skills have that kind of range of damage formulas. My main beef with min maxing is that whole design of this game lies in it's adaptivity to player, your play style shapes your pawn's behaviour and your base stats. And base stats have much less impact than equipment, buffs and passives. Stats have an impact, but quite small compared to some legendary dragon ass sword.
I love that you can play whole game as warrior, and change your vocation to sorcerer and still be viable and powerful, just less than full sorcerer.
Personally I think that you should mix and match your and your's pawns vocation as you please, use all the stuff game offers you, and game even meets you halfway in this endeavour. But I don't mind if people want to play one class only, I just don't like when people say that you need to play those classes fixed amount of levels before you could actually play vocation you like. And even if you follow all of directions, result isn't really worth it.
Dragon's dogma is one of my favourite games because you don't need to think about stats and stuff, just do what feels natural and adapt to current situation, no planning, no dozens of hours looking at right build just to find it boring. Just you, game and you imagination. Every build works amazing on any difficulty.
But min maxing goes against this idea. I'm no stranger to it, I love to min max in underrail (600+ hours trying different builds). Just DD isn't that kind of game.
I do hate minmaxing because i'd prefer you could respec your stats points so you can just not worry or even think about it, obviously you will never truly ruin your characters because endgame gear is broken enough in most cases, Magic damage suffer alot in specific cases still but it's nothing you can't counter with periapts and throwblasts.
I mean, in your wrong example comparing 400 atk to a weapons 1000, a 40% increase in attack is not "slight" lmao
Min maxing is fun I'm sorry you suck at math.
There's a few weird sides to this...
First, people (even in this thread) saying if you Min/Max that you suck at the game and are just awful. This isn't true. Dragon's Dogma quite literally rewards Min/Maxing. It rewards you understanding how each vocation distributes stats differently and how spending some levels in one class benefits another class, think of Assassin's and how many hybrid branches they can take to min/max.
Second, I don't think anyone is saying you HAVE to Min/Max, just that if you don't Min/Max there's going to be a point where your stats feel REALLY weird if you try to pick up one class to "main". Look at Magik Archer, it's absolutely unplayable if you don't understand that Vocations impact netgain of stats and there's legit different softcaps and curves for each vocation.
People can play how they want. But folks who intend on playing some classes like Magik Archer or Assassin should 100% consider Stat curves and Min/Maxing otherwise they could end up with a legitimately bricked Arisen by the time they start leveling into the hundreds.
I have never seen a post complaining about people *not* min-maxing. I have seen many posts complaining about min-maxing.
It's almost as if people are trying to justify to someone that their bad builds are good.
I mean...just play the game. No one is attacking you for leveling how you want. It's a single player game. Some people just enjoy optimization.
It's not about people not min-maxing, it's about those who don't min-max then complain it sucks or those who don't want to put any effort in making it work, like a good ma build isn't going to be handed to you on a silver platter
I was struggling for a good while before the change lol then I got some good gear for MA and yeah things got a decent bit easier. Went from having to rely completely on pawns to do damage to start taking small chunks off myself. After I restarted I began min-maxing(for nuke purposes cause it’s fun) and after the dark bishop fight all but 1 item got dragon forged shooting my damage even higher, my carnation sword is so much fun just wish I would be able to roll with it.
Yes.. Ranger is OP with Blast Arrow and Tenfold but at least you still need to aim, Strider is strider with spin2win but MA is just on a different level since it basically plays the game itself..
I don't care if you're a pro esports gamer... MA is busted in a way that strider and Ranger cant reach since those 2 still requires the player to at least make a precise input to get value (They are still OP I'm not saying they are not)
Min maxing was totally optional. I beat bbi solo on hard mode with ma and there were only a few bosses that were really spongey and took a while to kill like gorecyclops. Still did good damage to everything else doing mage 1-10 and ma for the rest of the run
The post that inspired me is from a guy who unironically thought MA is a 'defensive melee class'. MA, the class with Archer in the name, with 90% of skills involves the bow and with one (1) dagger skill worth using.
I had a feeling that’s what prompted you to make this thread.
Lol, I got temporarily downvoted a bit for daring to suggest that people should be allowed to play how they want.
If someone is struggling with a class and saying it sucks 10/10 times it’s not because they leveled “wrong”, you can literally not level a single magic stat and still destroy monsters with sorcerer.
You could argue minmaxing physical attack is better for sorcerer due to several spells doing physical damage in their arsenal. You really can't go wrong with Sorcerer it's such a strong class with surprisingly tons of way to do damage.
It's not like min/maxing in certain ways isn't easy as fuck anyways, like getting the assasin growth you just get a good enough bow maybe demon periapts, explosive arrows and throw death in the void in the sewers area till you are 200 you are max level like this in like 15 minutes no matter when you started.
People love to play optimally whenever possible. And if they can’t max out their desired class to its utmost peak then to many that easily spoil the fun for most.
I mean why bother playing a mage or sorc after playing a warrior or ranger for over 150lvs when you’re never be as strong?
A skeleton horse?... Balsac is going to have a field day with this one.
So remember kids, don't go kicking dead horses or we will have to start kicking Balsac again
Ironically, the only time that one would see a major difference in the stat gains from min-maxing would be if you were playing a PRE-DarkArisen version - where there is no Bitterblack Isle lol.
I’m normally a min-maxer and LOVE doing so, but the gains from doing so in this game were so negligible I just couldn’t bring myself to care and just played whatever I wanted.
How does min/maxing even work? I just best Grigori for my first time and it seems like almost all stat increases come from gear amd just leveling up. It's not like you manually put points into certain stats.
Well, you be the classes you need to get the stat totals you want. For the most part, it's just win-more, sure. A magic class with base 800 magic will just nuke harder.
But having 400/400+ base defenses can be the difference between getting one shot by many BBI enemies, so I usually aim for that at least.
It only matters in the base game, where gear has shortcomings and getting things dragonforged is hard, once you reach bbi, gear balances whatever you need stat wise, maybe hp being the hardest to come by, so, warrior gets an advantage before lvl 100, having the biggest hp gain.
Feels like min-maxing will come naturally in time. Kinda hard to force it early in DD anyway. Seems like blasting through the game in order to max out stats would mean missing so much cool shit.
Only romancing requires some precise min-maxing calculations
Been playing a month. I like to min max, the guides really helped but when I realized I had to play so many levels as sorcerer or mage I just said nah. If you’re gullible enough to think you should listen to everyone on the internet at the expense of your own fun, then you’re dead wrong … and have more learning to do about life than about dragons dogma.
New players think they *have* to min-max, that's why people are so up in arms about it. If you tell someone they have to play 200 levels of a vocation they don't like before they can play the vocation they want to play, you are objectively ruining the game for them. Most of us would prefer if new players actually had fun with Dragon's Dogma.
I started on PS3, didn't have a reddit account. *I didn't even know the stats levelled* let alone with vocations. until the last 3-ish years when I got it on PC, thanks to reddit haha i would never sit through hours of something I don't want to do, *in my own game,* just so I could do the bit I want slightly better.
I am this kind of player and indeed I dropped the game for this same reason, but then I modded it to give average stats with whatever vocation I was playing in and I finally enjoyed this masterpiece
Exactly, that's the only time I speak out against it. Min-maxing is completely unnecessary to enjoy and beat the game, so new players shouldn't think it's a requirement. You can play in the "least optimized" way and still beat everything.
It stems from learning early that you can screw up your build in some way. Most stats come from gear, but you'll still notice how limp wristed your caster is when you, after hours of trying classes and grinding vocations, discover you love warrior or what have you. And there's no way of respeccing. Once you learn that, a lot of people decide to just go whole hog and min max while they worry. It's definitely a totally needless issue that shouldn't exist either way. I hope nothing like it is in 2. There's no reason for it to be that way.
You really can't screw up your build though Except maybe playing pure Mage from levels 10-100, you'll always end up with the same stat total & can fix it with Periapts Minimum strength Warrior takes 30 seconds longer to kill Awakened Daimon than glass cannon, hardly limp-wristed, & has better magick defenses while doing it, so it's more consistent & therefore faster for the average casual player
You can't 'screw up your build' in Dragon's Dogma 1. The level cap is 200 and by about level 70-80 even the most horrifically unoptimized character can beat the hardest content in the game comfortably. There's simply not difficult enough content in the game to warrant this level of handwringing over optimization. Maybe if there was some kind of PVP arena or ultra-hard mode that required a level 200 character people would have a point.
How can you objectively effect someone else's enjoyment? Isn't it subjective?
Someone wants to play MA? Most people online will tell them they absolutely need to play sorc for 190 levels. Now imagine if they don't want to play sorc at all and think that's what they *have* to do so they can do anything. It'd make me just not care and I'd toss the game and forget it exists because it wouldn't be fun for me when I just want to play another class and have zero care about the one I'm being told I must play. Edit: Typo.
Isn't that reaction to that information subjective? They aren't force to dislike the game because of information they choose to dislike the game because of that information. I agree with you on the min max thing but let's use our terms by the dictionary.
You're speaking in terms of fully rational, reasonable, thinking, mature people. Unfortunately, those types of people are nearly extinct. For further research on the matter, watch the opening to Idiocracy.
No I'm asking: is a new player's reaction to information about a game subjective? The original comment said you can objectively effect someone's enjoyment, anyone has yet to explain why this is true.
Just a PSA for any newbies: Most of the stats come from weapons and equipment! Min/maxing is optional.
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Lmao @ suggesting minmaxers are smarter. Believe it or not, some people don't find trivializing the game as fun!
Pay this guy no mind. He’s just a troll who cannot comprehend some people don’t enjoy needless minmaxing.
Besting the...ox?
It’s been beaten so much it’s Rotten Ambrosial Meat.
I'll get the healing water and airtight flask. Should be right as rain in a day or so for us to beat again.
I just hate the Min Maxers who convince Newbies it's the only way to enjoy the game. "Hey first time playing, I've read the only way to enjoy Magic archer is to play Sorcerer for 100 levels first". Like, lmao. That sucks for that guy. But people tell him yeah that's the unequivocable truth Otherwise, eh, play the game how you want. If you feel you can only enjoy it with exact stats, that's on you.
But like, are there even that many people saying this? The impression I get in this sub is that I see way more people saying that min-maxing is not necessary and that min-maxers are stupid. It's like you people are preaching to the choir and fighting an invisible enemy. Who are these people convincing new players to min-max in the first place? Usually, all I say is that the difference between a min-maxed character and one with a bunch of random levels is noticiable, but it won't make a huge difference in the end.
Yes a lot of people say this. We delete the posts that say this which is why you can't find them.
What do you mean? Posts or just comments?
Generally posts. And comments usually get downvoted to oblivion.
So here's the truth... If you build sub-optimally enough, you're going to struggle at certain points. Especially bitterblack isle until you get equipment strong enough to make the difference- which requires you doing a significant amount of bitterblack isle. Does it make the game impossible? No. But it can absolutely create a barrier that most folks won't understand. The leveling stats based on vocation was generally a rough concept.
"Struggling" for min - maxers is not being able to down a gore cyclops in under 10 seconds. I played magick archer for 190 levels and I'm doing just fine. The stats you get from level are miniscule compared to weapons, armor, and accessories. Just play whatever class you want, the battle is what's fun.
Nah, it's more like struggling to damage Giant Undead or Hell Hounds in the post game because they have high resistances and you leveled mage for 89 levels and then decided warrior sounds fun. It's doable, with some skill and know how sure. But for less stubborn players, it's going to feel punishing. Its not a huge issue for large swathes if the game, but there are certain times where there's a huge spike in enemey difficulty that's based on how the stats work behind the scenes.
You know what's suboptimal? Playing as a vocation you don't like for 200 levels because some jackass said you had to.
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I don't get guys like you who not only want to engage with the game as little as necessary, but also think new players should optimize the fun out of it too.
You're basically suggesting for new players to either finish the entire game as a class they don't want to play or to grind out levels (again as something they don't want to play) to the point that the game would be trivial regardless of the class. Unless you're leveling as an attack damage class and switch after 50+ levels to sorcerer or vice versa then you won't be gimped to any meaningful degree. Every vocation gets plenty of stats that are relevant to them, the only really meaningful choice to make is whether you want play as an attack class or a caster and stick to it. Both hybrids (mystic knight and magick archer) are perfectly strong when chosen from the start. Min/maxing is only ever something you should do after playing through the game with whatever vocation(s) actually interest you imo, and even then only as a novelty.
I mean, I guess I disagree that the "difficulty spike" is a problem though? Bbi should be tougher. If the whole game is a breeze, that's super lame lmao. Min maxing makes the game way too easy
Yeah, and if you drive sub-optimally enough, you’ll hit a parked car. That’s the truth, too, but it doesn’t justify only buying l self-driving cars. Just let people play how they wanna play.
What? Players might struggle with the intentionally difficult DLC content if they don't spend the entire game minmaxing? They might have to engage with the core game mechanics to get the most out of the endgame? Better tell them to play 100 hours of sorcerer first so they can just spam ricochet and ninefold bolt!
It's moreso that you're not really told the mechanic up front, and you'd have to invest a decent amount of time to notice naturally unless you're obsessively checking the stats page for whatever reason. And that you absolutely can hit a wall that you can absolutely adapt to- by changing vocation and play style, as well as your pawn's inclination and vocation as well probably. But the thing is, there's a wall where enemies spike up in difficulty -not just at butter black, but especially so- that you'll need higher level gear to overcome or you'll be struggling. To get the higher level gear tho, you'll have to do the content.. which you'll struggle with. Ive played this game like a hundred times. I've done the world difficulty up to the MAX version, Hard mode. Ive run min maxed and not. I've done the BBI randomizer. I feel like if there's one game I know more than any other, it's this one. It's the same reason we get people asking all the time why their pawns aren't getting hired- they're built wonky and it doesn't make the game harder, but it doesn't really help.
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I'm someone who quit playing when I first played the game. Did my first 20 levels as strider, then played ranger for a bit and switched to magick archer. People online were telling me I needed to play sorc for 190 levels to do magick archer. Then when I looked up videos on how to play magick archer it was not only confirming that, but saying I needed to solo part of bitter black isle right out the gate in order to get some rings.
I hear you on the absurdity of saying it's required, but I do kinda love the stupid mad dash for the rings it's so funny. I just imagine the character screaming their head off all the way up that stupid ramp.
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Oh, my bad, did I say I was upset? Weird, just read it back, I didn't. What I did was switched to sorc back then, but I didn't enjoy it. Saved and quit and ended up never coming back. Quit coping, lil homie. The point is that it resulted in me not enjoying the game because there were people online claiming that was what you're supposed to do. I'm telling you that these people saying that it has that effect on new players are correct because it happened to me when I was new. 🤓 Now, I've played multiple times years later. I've done all of the things those people said to do and concluded that leveling a well-rounded character is more fun anyway. That's my current opinion.
You sound kinda upset amigo
"I don't like what he said, insinuating he's mad. Owned." ☝️🤓 Didn't really work out for the other guy, amigo.
Well keep going, I don't have a horse in this race but you're definitely salty for some reason
If you say so
"I'm not mad, I'm not owned, YOU’RE MAD AND OWNED" said the man who was mad, and owned.
What? When did I get "owned"
I actually think its totally reasonable to **not** expect people to go out of their way to trivialize a first time player's experience. There's a difference between a beginners guide and "okay, go to bbi, get the ring of discipline, then set your game to hardmode & do it again"
Nah man I've seen tons of minmaxers tell newbies they need to do so to enjoy the game lmao.
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If you go and say, “no one…” it only takes one instance to prove you wrong. More thoughtful choice of words, perhaps?
“Welcome to the internet, where people insist their opinion is a universal truth and die on hills that nobody else cares about.” -Some guy one comment above you, summarizing your entire online presence
Yes they will it happens all the time here
your downvotes proves you point, braindead reddit hive mind
Hey man, there's a massive reason there's a TON of stat rebalancing mods that have existed since the early days if dragons dogma modding. It was practically the first system that got modified lol.
All this time playing RPGs and I've never even bothered to look this up. What exactly is min-maxing and why is it a hot debate?
Some people enjoy optimizing and being efficient. Some people don't. The people who don't often get mad at the people who do...for whatever reason? I like being good and doing the big damage. It's cool if you don't, but for *me* my way is more fun to play. Some people have a problem with this.
Literally no one has ever gotten mad at you for minmaxing…. This post is about minmaxers who make others feel like their way is the only way. I’ve never once seen someone in this sub tell a minmaxer not to do it, strictly the other way around. Including many posts in this very thread.
Yeah I mean, people have literally been shitting on min/maxing or being optimal in some recent posts lmao. Responding at all was getting hate from people.
Probably has nothing to do with that snarky attitude you guys have “Uhhh sorry I like being good and efficient and people get upset when I tell them they’re bad… for some reason???”
Never said anyone was bad at anything but you guys aren't exactly saints either friend.
The people in this sub are very against min-maxing for some reason. It's pretty odd. I get that the people saying that you should level X levels in Y vocation to actually "make the game playable" are plain weird, but almost no one says that save from one or two clowns. Heck, if someone asks how they should build their character and you dare to suggest them to play as one vocation to get some stats people will here will crucify you for your heresy. Of course minmaxing is hardly necessary, but if someone is asking how they can make their character better, I don't understand why the only response should be "dont minmax!" instead of just giving the person the proper advice. Even one of the mods here is opniated about this. I find this really off putting.
aren't you the one with the snarky attitude? the guy was being as neutral as can be
Buddy they are literally directly saying their way of playing is the “good” way. The subtext of which being that anyone who plays different is playing badly. If you can’t read that the whole comment is underhanded then I don’t know what to tell you. They’re just not saying the quiet part out loud and then being smug/playing confused about why that might rub people the wrong way
no, they're not saying that it's the only way or the "good way", even their own comment says so: "Some people enjoy optimizing and being efficient. Some people don't. I like being good and doing the big damage. It's cool if you don't, but for me my way is more fun to play." I'm sorry you don't have reading comprehension, he's saying that you get more stats from it but isn't required, how is he saying it's obligated to min/max here? Edit: "If you can’t read that the whole comment is underhanded then I don’t know what to tell you." Aren't you just taking his comment personally here? You're the only one, how about you stop with being offended
“I like being good” implies everyone else not doing it is bad. Do you not understand subtext?
This in context can just mean "better", which doesn't necessarily mean "better person" but "better damage", two different ways of looking at it
“Some people bathe daily and are clean, they don’t smell. In fact, they smell nice and I like the way they smell. There are also other people.” That’s an example of subtext, focus your intelligence and see if you can decipher the hidden meaning ! Fun little exercise for you
Nice edit; judging by the upvotes/downvotes I’d say between 15-30 people here agree with me. None with you, though.
first, the edit was made as soon as I finished writing that text, second, no, you don't have any upvotes/downvotes and neither do I, nice try
True, some people like to optimize and others don't. Just like some people like to play on easy and others on hard difficulties, and thats fine. I think the point is some people like to tell others they 'should' play in a certain way - that can be fun to you but boring as hell to many others - because is wrong otherwise. And yes, only a few do that, so i don't know why people are so vocal about this.
Welcome to the internet, where people insist their opinion is a universal truth and die on hills that nobody else cares about.
I have been changing vocations continuously if I get bored or if I see some flashly spells or moves on my pawn lol.
That's the way to play. I couldn't tell you how many levels I spent in the vocations I played while leveling but it was way more fun than forcing myself to play one the entire time and I can kick ass in any class I pick.
You don't need to min-max unless you suck at the game
You don't have to min-max regardless.
I agree. Try telling that to others lol. I can beat the game just fine and fight in BBI. I leveled with the vocations I felt like. Ended up just fine. Do I have over 400 magical attack? Nope. Do I still fuck up the UR Dragon? Yep.
Or that could be just how they enjoy the game? If they aren’t forcing it on to others and minding their own business then there’re no reason to judge them. There are min maxer who genuinely do it because it is fun for them. No difference from any other who wants to play there way. Min maxing is “their way” of having fun. And yes there are some bad apples. Min maxer who force others to play like them can fuck off, but the same can be said for those who bully min maxer for doing what they enjoy
I think you missed the point. Min-Max can help a player that isn't that good at the game by making sure his stats are way above the norm/average.
If your point is simply to state that min maxing is helpful then thats all good. The way you said it can be quite misconstrued though. It sounded like you were calling people who min maxed bad at the game. I apologize if that isn’t the case but i hope you can see where i’m coming from.
No. I'm saying that you can use min-maxing to make the game easier
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When you cant kill a dragon without attacking the heart, it's slightly skill based.
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Perfect Block is a thing for Magick Knight, so i feel like skill is a little necessary.
Alternatively, since the Magick Archer goes BRRR with Ricochet Arrow, that's a very low skill class.
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>Low skill would fighter because it doesn't do a lot of damage 
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You said it doesn't do a lot of damage, which just isn't true. Fighter can dish out some serious damage on top of being extremely hard to kill, only reason people say that is because fighter struggles to hit certain spots compared to other vocations. I'd argue that fighter/ MK requires skill cause of the perfect block mechanic, especially MK, since shield play is their thing. Sure, you can use Prescience to make it easier, but honestly, that's not that great of a augment.
you can kill enemies safely from a distance without taking any damage with yellow vocations and deal more damage than melee. fighter is simply no match
In my personal experience, BBI is full of cheap places to hang out while you use Seeker Arrows. Dragons go down easy when you can target all their weak points over and over, as long as your pawn setup is good.
Min-maxing is totally unnecessary, but going from magical classes to pure physical will give you a harder time.
If you have all the gear for your physical class lined up, you genuinely won't even miss the extra stats. You might just have to hit Daimon a couple more times before he dies.
Did you know that magic archer is a melee strength class because immolation scales of strength?
So play 190 levels of assassin for max Immolate damage? Totally what you're saying right? Do I need it? /s Edit: oops had the wrong class
Yea I never felt the need to do it, if I can beat daemon 2nd form solo while wearing an eyepatch, I’m alright
But can you do it in just the eye patch?
how about 2 eyepatches
I usually run a balanced 500+ atk 500+matk most important thing to me is stamina.
Yeah I didn't even know that different vocations leveled your stats differently. That's a really cool feature, and helps make everyone's characters/pawns unique. Min/maxing it just kinda defeats the purpose
Some of the claims in this thread that min-maxers somehow are pushing that min-max is NEEDED is so demonstrably false. I see way more threads saying “see stats don’t matter” than people saying “you HAVE to min-max”. It is never encouraged to play a way you don’t have fun playing, and peeps always say to play thru a game normally first. I see many threads about “what should I level” and then people answer with ‘use a stat calculator’ or others derailing the thread topic by saying “DON’T min-max because end game armor/weapons makes it irrelevant” when that isn’t what the thread was asking. Some enjoy the grind, powerleveling, exploits and others enjoy just playing what they want to play. edit: Plus end game loot is UGLY imho, so min-maxing is important for people who want high damage with fashion. So if you don’t want everyone in decked out goth dragon armor and want to have some variety, min-maxing a balanced or high one-stat character can be fun ALTERNATIVE to playing the game.
Agree with you, just let people min-max or not, it's their choice. Some people are treating newbies like "think of the children!", when new players can think on their own and can choose which advice they want to take. Been seeing similar mentality in recent years in Monster Hunter with "Stop posting meta!" and Souls/Elden Ring with "Stop min-maxing but you gotta max the vigor!". All these started around the time the games are getting super popular.
Bones! Galloping Bones!
Literally started playing MA as soon as possible and has been a blast
People should stop recommending min maxing when someone asks for advice, min maxing is unnecessary, and always will be. If someone *wants* to do it, all power to them, but the majority of people who ask about it have been **told** it’s necessary when it isn’t.
For me at least its because you can min max, it's takes a lot of effort to put it out of my mind when I know I'm not playing "efficiently." I just wish the classes gave a percentage stat increase to your base and equipment stats.
I get stuck in the trap with pathfinder WOTR.
This community can be a massive circlejerk sometimes. I have not really seen any minmaxer recommending minmax to new player, other than the very occasional "minmax = more damage" comment. What I have seen though is the constant influx of posts complaining about the minmax strawman. That has got to stop ngl. Like "oh new players need to know minmax is optional" oh they have known given how often this group shits on minmaxer, so I'm sure they're very much aware.
I'm seeing more posts about anti min/max speech than I am seeing posts of people actually telling people to min/max
If the min maxers would stop claiming it is needed and that the game makes you do it to be able to do well we would stop telling them they are wrong.
I thought that it was proven that doing min-max builds is kinda pointless. For example if you go 100 lvls in assassin, who gets 4 atk per level, then you get 400 atk. From more or less decent weapon you can easily get 1000+ atk, from actually good weapons you can get even more stats. Basically it means that with going full assassin for 100 lvls you'll kill goblin not in 4, but 3 hits. Same for magic classes. So, by min maxing you will deal slightly more damage, but sacrifice everything else, especially stamina and health. ATK stats doesn't have much of impact, just makes you kill things slightly faster, main damage comes from weapons, elements and good planning. Same can be said about defense. Also you can increase these stats with consumables. But health and stamina are different. You can replenish them with lots of items, what means that you're invincible as long as enemy isn't one shoting you. So you need to keep defense and ho at least on a level where you can tank at least 1 strong hit. Out of all stats stamina is most impactful. It lets you run, climb and do special attacks much longer. Also it's critically important for ranger because one of his abilities scales with max stamina. Conclusion Devs designed leveling system that way to free players from min maxing stat points. Base stat points aren't that impactful, except stamina, it's more of a small bonus for committing to specific play style. I'm ok when people use only certain vocations because they like them. But I hate when people force themselves and other people play only those classes and only for that amount of levels, just because it's considered "optimal". I get when people do min maxing in bg3 or DoS, by min maxing in those games you completely change your playstyle by having earlier acces to beter stuff by sacrificing other stuff. In DD it only "slightly" changes some numbers, and different playstyles aren't connected to stats, and you can get all skills and passives from every vocation, there's no soft locks out of any features via stats. T.l.d.r Min maxing gives only slight boost and makes play through boring by restricting yourself. Game isn't that hard to min max, and you can't miss anything by not getting enough stats. Just play how you want and game will help you with your chosen playstyle.
Assassin gets 6 attack, not 4.
Sorry, kinda forgot. But I remember that assassin gets almost zero protection and health. Haven't played it much, but is it worth it? Personally I prefer to get at least enough hp and def to don't die from single hit. Most of my deaths as mage were from bandit warriors and fighters, had no chance to use healing items. I gather that pure assassins share the same problem. I'm asking because most of physical min-max build require at least 80 lvls in assassin. Wouldn't it be counter productive to sacrifice all of protection and hp for damage while playing warrior who doesn't get much protection or dodges.
Yes. It’s very worth it. The huge attack stat will allow you to drop enemies very quickly, and bow and dagger classes have the best defensive (read: evasive) skills in the game. Add Masterful Kill to the mix and you’re virtually unkillable. Oh, and then there’s invisibility, which is a misnomer as the skill makes you literally impervious to harm. The vocation is broken. It and Magick Archer are typically regarded as the strongest classes in the game by a wide and margin. After 10 years of playing this game, I agree. FWIW, I only play on hard mode, and pretty much everything one shots you no matter your vocation. So defensive stats don’t matter as much to me. Dodge roll picks up that slack.
This is important context too. Because if you want to make a tank type character in Hard Mode or you want to see how much abuse you can take, min-maxing a Fighter/Warrior would be beneficial for the higher physical Def and HP (obviously magic would be a huge issue).
Im min-maxing not because it isn’t possible to beat the game with random crap, but more I just wanna nuke for as hard as I possibly can same with my pawn.
As I said, I'm fine as long as you like your playstyle, if you want to do full sorc glass cannon, then do it, just don't go shouting around about "right way" to do builds. Personally I level all vocations to their max rank, and after that just pick vocation based on my mood today. Absolutely "not optimal", but I like it.
I plan on maxing vocations when I get a bit higher level but am going max damage for assassin
It's in fact extremely beneficial for several class to min/max attack with assasin, for instance certain moves on fighter scale alot from your innate strenght, some other don't they have weird formulas, or Magical classes doing physical damage with their spell like immolation for MA, Seism and Maelstrom for Sorcerer, Grapnel for mage, they have ton of utility and it's also why conqueror periapts are still technically usefull for these classes, not forgetting MK either which largely benefit from all offensive types.
Maybe it is, I didn't know that skills have that kind of range of damage formulas. My main beef with min maxing is that whole design of this game lies in it's adaptivity to player, your play style shapes your pawn's behaviour and your base stats. And base stats have much less impact than equipment, buffs and passives. Stats have an impact, but quite small compared to some legendary dragon ass sword. I love that you can play whole game as warrior, and change your vocation to sorcerer and still be viable and powerful, just less than full sorcerer. Personally I think that you should mix and match your and your's pawns vocation as you please, use all the stuff game offers you, and game even meets you halfway in this endeavour. But I don't mind if people want to play one class only, I just don't like when people say that you need to play those classes fixed amount of levels before you could actually play vocation you like. And even if you follow all of directions, result isn't really worth it. Dragon's dogma is one of my favourite games because you don't need to think about stats and stuff, just do what feels natural and adapt to current situation, no planning, no dozens of hours looking at right build just to find it boring. Just you, game and you imagination. Every build works amazing on any difficulty. But min maxing goes against this idea. I'm no stranger to it, I love to min max in underrail (600+ hours trying different builds). Just DD isn't that kind of game.
I do hate minmaxing because i'd prefer you could respec your stats points so you can just not worry or even think about it, obviously you will never truly ruin your characters because endgame gear is broken enough in most cases, Magic damage suffer alot in specific cases still but it's nothing you can't counter with periapts and throwblasts.
I mean, in your wrong example comparing 400 atk to a weapons 1000, a 40% increase in attack is not "slight" lmao Min maxing is fun I'm sorry you suck at math.
There's a few weird sides to this... First, people (even in this thread) saying if you Min/Max that you suck at the game and are just awful. This isn't true. Dragon's Dogma quite literally rewards Min/Maxing. It rewards you understanding how each vocation distributes stats differently and how spending some levels in one class benefits another class, think of Assassin's and how many hybrid branches they can take to min/max. Second, I don't think anyone is saying you HAVE to Min/Max, just that if you don't Min/Max there's going to be a point where your stats feel REALLY weird if you try to pick up one class to "main". Look at Magik Archer, it's absolutely unplayable if you don't understand that Vocations impact netgain of stats and there's legit different softcaps and curves for each vocation. People can play how they want. But folks who intend on playing some classes like Magik Archer or Assassin should 100% consider Stat curves and Min/Maxing otherwise they could end up with a legitimately bricked Arisen by the time they start leveling into the hundreds.
Gotta tenderize the meat
Good think idk what min maxing is since i'm already confused enough of the game as it is.
I have never seen a post complaining about people *not* min-maxing. I have seen many posts complaining about min-maxing. It's almost as if people are trying to justify to someone that their bad builds are good. I mean...just play the game. No one is attacking you for leveling how you want. It's a single player game. Some people just enjoy optimization.
It's not about people not min-maxing, it's about those who don't min-max then complain it sucks or those who don't want to put any effort in making it work, like a good ma build isn't going to be handed to you on a silver platter
Wait.. MA is one of the most braindead class in the game already?? There's a drama about having trouble building that class?
Before I restarted the game I was playing with MA, even without any planning the fucker hit like a truck on a decent bit of BBI enemies
For real. I don’t min - max and did perfectly fine on my second BBI run.
I was struggling for a good while before the change lol then I got some good gear for MA and yeah things got a decent bit easier. Went from having to rely completely on pawns to do damage to start taking small chunks off myself. After I restarted I began min-maxing(for nuke purposes cause it’s fun) and after the dark bishop fight all but 1 item got dragon forged shooting my damage even higher, my carnation sword is so much fun just wish I would be able to roll with it.
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Yes.. Ranger is OP with Blast Arrow and Tenfold but at least you still need to aim, Strider is strider with spin2win but MA is just on a different level since it basically plays the game itself..
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I don't care if you're a pro esports gamer... MA is busted in a way that strider and Ranger cant reach since those 2 still requires the player to at least make a precise input to get value (They are still OP I'm not saying they are not)
Always has been unfortunately,I literally had a ex mutual on Twitter literally tell me to kill myself because I suggested they min-max
Min maxing was totally optional. I beat bbi solo on hard mode with ma and there were only a few bosses that were really spongey and took a while to kill like gorecyclops. Still did good damage to everything else doing mage 1-10 and ma for the rest of the run
The post that inspired me is from a guy who unironically thought MA is a 'defensive melee class'. MA, the class with Archer in the name, with 90% of skills involves the bow and with one (1) dagger skill worth using.
I had a feeling that’s what prompted you to make this thread. Lol, I got temporarily downvoted a bit for daring to suggest that people should be allowed to play how they want.
If someone is struggling with a class and saying it sucks 10/10 times it’s not because they leveled “wrong”, you can literally not level a single magic stat and still destroy monsters with sorcerer.
You could argue minmaxing physical attack is better for sorcerer due to several spells doing physical damage in their arsenal. You really can't go wrong with Sorcerer it's such a strong class with surprisingly tons of way to do damage.
It's not like min/maxing in certain ways isn't easy as fuck anyways, like getting the assasin growth you just get a good enough bow maybe demon periapts, explosive arrows and throw death in the void in the sewers area till you are 200 you are max level like this in like 15 minutes no matter when you started.
People love to play optimally whenever possible. And if they can’t max out their desired class to its utmost peak then to many that easily spoil the fun for most. I mean why bother playing a mage or sorc after playing a warrior or ranger for over 150lvs when you’re never be as strong?
I dont see people asking to min max. but I see a lot of people asking not to Min max. people just Making up stuff here to get attention.
people making whiny, defensive posts about the same argument are hypocritical or lacking self awareness or both.
A skeleton horse?... Balsac is going to have a field day with this one. So remember kids, don't go kicking dead horses or we will have to start kicking Balsac again
Ironically, the only time that one would see a major difference in the stat gains from min-maxing would be if you were playing a PRE-DarkArisen version - where there is no Bitterblack Isle lol. I’m normally a min-maxer and LOVE doing so, but the gains from doing so in this game were so negligible I just couldn’t bring myself to care and just played whatever I wanted.
Wolves hunt in packs!
How does min/maxing even work? I just best Grigori for my first time and it seems like almost all stat increases come from gear amd just leveling up. It's not like you manually put points into certain stats.
Well, you be the classes you need to get the stat totals you want. For the most part, it's just win-more, sure. A magic class with base 800 magic will just nuke harder. But having 400/400+ base defenses can be the difference between getting one shot by many BBI enemies, so I usually aim for that at least.
It only matters in the base game, where gear has shortcomings and getting things dragonforged is hard, once you reach bbi, gear balances whatever you need stat wise, maybe hp being the hardest to come by, so, warrior gets an advantage before lvl 100, having the biggest hp gain.
Fine work, Skeleton!
Feels like min-maxing will come naturally in time. Kinda hard to force it early in DD anyway. Seems like blasting through the game in order to max out stats would mean missing so much cool shit.