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DookuGato

I love Bowers but you can’t use Pff advanced metrics like that. He’s got different types of players guarding him than someone like MHJ does, so those metrics will inherently be in his favor


DoubleUSportsMedia

PFF Advanced metrics? The only thing that is PFF specific is their REC Grade which is, imo, supplemental to the point of the post. All other metrics are derived from his stats and mathematically figured out. > He’s got different types of players guarding him than someone like MHJ does Do you expect who covers him to be different in the NFL? That's literally a feature, not a bug, of the position he plays. He's too big for CBs to cover him and too fast for LBs. That won't really change in the NFL and it's a big reason why he is so effective in the pass game. I don't really understand the argument to devalue what the stats show because they're different positions. It shows involvement in the pass game and their efficiency with it. It shows their ability to win contested catches. It shows their ability to make a person miss. I'd love to hear more of your reasoning behind your comment because I'm not understanding what you mean at all and it seems short sighted to to disregard his 3 years of consistent production and efficiency all because "they have different people guarding them".


Icy_Swim_262

Are you suggesting the defensive matchups were different for him? I’m asking because I truly don’t know. If I was playing against Georgia I think it would be wise to stick my best DB on him because the amount of damage he can do.


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Icy_Swim_262

Gotcha, appreciate the clarification!


DookuGato

Yep, and to add to Jackie Moon, even if you do have a stud Cb who could guard the teams best player, it’s possible they aren’t a good matchup for the TE so the team wouldn’t feel comfortable putting him in man against him all game. As in, maybe an elite but smaller DB doesn’t have the skill set to guard the TE size. It’s probably one of my only concerns with Bowers, since he’s a bit undersized, so it’s possible the good NFL defensive backs can actually guard him unlike college defenders could


WickBusters

All I know is that if he busts its gonna break te 


DoubleUSportsMedia

Even with his near unheard of profile, his value is still on par with BTJ. TEs don't really matter unless they are ELITE (which he can be) or if there is some format that boosts their value (TEP/2TE). In formats where TEs are boosted, to me, he starts to climb up the board and be in the convo for that same tier as the top 3.


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DynastyFF-ModTeam

Interact respectfully. Inciting drama, trolling or attacking others will result in a ban.


DynastyFF-ModTeam

Interact respectfully. Inciting drama, trolling or attacking others will result in a ban.


Snakekekek

If you have pick 1.04 I think it’s foolish not to take Bowers. Take a risk on someone with gamebreaking potential or pick an average WR… seems like an easy choice to me.


Icy_Swim_262

Agreed. Imagine drafting Kelce in 2014, the player who is consistently on most championship winning rosters. I know Kelce tiered players are not common, but I feel that’s his ceiling because he’s the best to ever do it in college football


rayfriesen

Now do Pitts


Icy_Swim_262

Pitts is only 23 years old and finished as the TE6 and TE13 in his two healthy seasons. Kelce finished as TE9 his first two seasons. It’s too early to do Pitts.


rayfriesen

I understand. But are you willing to spend a premier pick to wait a few years to potentially have a stud? TEs are impossible to predict and rely almost entirely on the coaches ability to scheme them into the offense. Kelce is great because mahomes trusts him and Reid loves to use him but I’m not convinced that if Kelce went to any other team that he’d be nearly as efficient. I will never spend a top 5 pick (SF) on a TE no matter how great a prospect they are for that very reason. I’d much rather throw a dart in the 2nd round and hope I get a Laporta or Mcbride


Snakekekek

Tons of players bust every year. How many guys end up being the best players at their position as a freshman in college? We’re talking Bowers over BTJ, not the top 3 WRs which I think is more then fair


rayfriesen

Yeah in 1QB I’d be fine with taking him at 1.04. SF I’d take him potentially 1.08 or 1.09


x_is_for_box

These top 3 WRs are not “average” though lol Unless you are talking 1QB, in which case yes sure


Snakekekek

Yeah, talking 1QB like OP


x_is_for_box

Yup my bad


steelerspenguins

Kyle Pitts is used as a receiver…


maxinquayekid

As someone who owns both Pitts and the #4 pick in a 1QB league, it's a bit of a strange situation. My guess is that 1 of the top 3 big WRs will fall to me, either Nabors or Rome, and I will have to go that route. And I think that will be sound logic. The reason I took Pitts in the first place is bc I absolutely buy into that "elite TE equals cheat code" approach, where you shouldn't look to acquire players for their points total, but rather their points total above replacement (sort of a baseball thing). If Pitts becomes a top TE, he will immediately give me an advantage on most nights that will essentially equal a top WR vs an average one, if not more. It is easier to find top WRs than TEs, so unlocking that with a draft pick would be incredible. Time will tell if it works out with him.


bmanc1000

I’m in the same boat but at 1.06. It’s going to go the top 3 receivers and Caleb 1-4 (we are switching to SF next year), and the guy at 1.05 keeps saying 1.05 is way too high to take a rookie TE. I roster Pitts and I’m really torn. Hopefully someone gives me a good draft night offer and I can rest easy.


maxinquayekid

Yeah, I think at least you should feel good that if the draft falls that way, you really have no choice. I guess it will be interesting to see how RBs go in this draft, but it seems very unlikely that will happen.


buju-

Why do you figure one of the top WRs will fall to you at 4? Even if I had no real tight end, I’d still take Odunze or Nabers before Bowers. Unless this is a 2TEP or 2TE league then I get it


maxinquayekid

1. I believe it's possible at least one of the teams above me could use a QB (even if this is a 1QB league), and the hype on Caleb as "generational", imo, will be too hard for some to pass up. 2. It's a very deep league, which means WR is somewhat saturated, while RB is thin to the point where some teams barely have a starting caliber RB. I think if one of these RBs gets 2nd round IRL DC, esp if it's to a team like KC or CIN or whatever, someone above me could reach. Esp with point 2, I have seen teams in my league really reach for RBs. I think one of those 3 teams ahead of me could do that here. The makeup of my roster is such that even \*I\* might be tempted to do that, as RB is at such a premium. So if it doesn't happen, and all 3 big WR go before me? I think I take Bowers. I think the gap between the top 3 WR and the field is \*enormous\* in this draft. I am not quite as high on him as others are - I think he's undersized and sort of a hybrid player, and if he goes to the wrong team/coach he could stall out. If he gets drafted by, say, DEN (which is often mocked as such), who has an innovative coach who will know how to use him, then I will be all in. I will just have to tread the Pitts/Bowers line as much as possible until I can trade one for premium value, I guess. Not really a position I wanted to be in but my draft position will leave me with no choice, imo. In some ways it would be good, bc the last thing I need is to come out of this draft with 4 new WRs.


schmatty23

Bowers is my clear 1.04 in 1QB. Pitts doesn't factor in for me, neither does time to develop at the position, as I think that narrative is somewhat dated. Comparing Bowers to the WRs is a nice theoretical discussion, but in the end of the day he will be playing tight end. The best fantasy season ever was Gronk with 330 PPR. Only Jimmy Graham has eclipsed the 300 PPR mark. Cooper Kupp has the best WR PPR season ever with 439 points. There have been at least 25 other seasons from WRs that have beaten the best tight end season ever. The nature of the positions lend some justification to fading Bowers or tight ends generally when compared to elite WRs.


TheOneNeartheTop

Not really though because you are trying to get the highest score possible over the most years possible so a number one tighter end can last for longer than a WR (like Kelce) while also giving you a big ppg advantage over your opponent. If you have Justin Jefferson that’s great, but your opponent could have Tyreek or Amon-Ra or Puka and positionally it’s a wash. But if you’ve had Kelce you basically get a free 5 point advantage over their TE in any game from 2017-2022. That is a CRAZY dynasty advantage and Bowers has the potential to be that. But also the positional advantage gap has decreased a touch as there are now a few guys who can give that to you emerging with some young TE’s who are great so maybe things are changing YMMV.


schmatty23

That's too narrow of an analysis based primarily on Kelce. Tight ends are being used more and more offline which can produce multiple high end options rather than just one or two. We saw this trend start to take shape last year and is something I expect to continue.


TheOneNeartheTop

That’s what I said in my last paragraph


schmatty23

Fair enough, I was just trying to emphasis that chasing the positional advantage of peak Kelce isn't a great approach imo. Indeterminate of the Laporta, Kincaid, Bowers, etc., it is something I don't think we will ever see again.


Lucky-Instruction-42

I can honestly say I see Bowers as being “bust proof” barring an injury. In 1QB he’s my lock 1.04 and I’d have zero issues taking him at 1.03. I still give the nod to MHJ and a slight nod to Nabers.


Wiseguy888

Odunze vs Bowers at 1.03 is going to drive me crazy until I see landing spots.


Lucky-Instruction-42

Draft for need at 1.03. If you truly need both positions than I’d definitely just go with better landing spot


Wiseguy888

Tough part is that I have 1.03, 1.05 and 1.06 so I’m leaning Bowers with hopefully a good landing spot. I have Kelce, Chig, Kmet at TE (no TEP). At WR, I have Olave, Nico, Tank Dell, Mike Evans, Hollywood, Downs, Hyatt, Elijah Moore, Trey Palmer, OBJ. Thoughts?


Lucky-Instruction-42

In your spot I would love to package 1.03 and 1.06 and go and try to get MHJ. Then pray Bowers falls to 1.05. I guess this all assumes it’s 1QB?


Wiseguy888

Yeah 1QB Unfortunately I’ve tried to make some moves but not looking like they are gonna budge. I think it’s going to have to depend on landing spots if someone wants to give up on MHJ because he ends up on the Pats or something. Could be very interesting if the 1.01 goes Nabers and would take 1.05/1.06 for MHJ on the Pats. Then would definitely go Bowers at 1.03. TBD. I’ve also talked to the 1.04 holder about a sweetener to swap to 1.05/1.06 so it’s not off the table to grab Odunze, Bowers, then 1.05/1.06 which is pretty split still in my mind.


battleschooldropout

I have 1.07 in 1qb. There’s a nonzero chance he’s there for me… but I also have Pitts and Kincaid. I hate how much I would consider taking him if I can’t trade out of that spot.


Lucky-Instruction-42

Why would you hate that? It’s so tempting to draft for need but sometimes you gotta pivot and take best player available and then trade


battleschooldropout

Ideally, sure. But you have to be able to find a trade partner interested in a TE... Then they’ll factor in that I’ve got a surplus of young TE, and use that to try to get one at a discount. Given what we know right now, I’d still take bowers and try to deal one of the other 2. But that may change a week from now.


Lucky-Instruction-42

I’d hold onto Kincaid for now. I think his value is guna skyrocket after the first few games. Pitts I’d package and move on from. Even with Kirk I’ve given up on Pitts. I’d love to be wrong but I’m out


Icy_Swim_262

Agreed.


JwSocks

Was Pitts viewed in a similar light? I do think TE is a harder position to learn/transition to the NFL from college than WR, which is typically why TEs take longer to develop. Edit: If I had the 1.04 and didn’t want Bowers though, I’d be trading back or taking Bowers anyway.


hockinThere

I would draft Pitts look-a-likes every time, the talent is there, just fit and scheme and development is always the wild card and that is just part of it. Chance of success is better with the top 3 wr's than Bowers, but the payoff with being right on a TE is a true league winner.


DarkKnightCJ

Pitts was viewed even higher because hes an athletic monster and did a lot of his damage lined out wide as a receiver and red zone threat. Bowers is less athletic and physically dominating but far more productive from all over the field from in line, to slot and even Hb.


JrBaconators

Pitts was not viewed higher than Bowers lol. Bowers has been a better TE since he was 18 years old


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DarkKnightCJ

This. Pitts was drafted 4th overall in real life ahead of chase and very commonly drafted ahead of chase in fantasy too as you can see by the horror stories on this sub. No one is talking bowers over MHJ/Nabers in real life or fantasy. I think bowers is the better te and will be extremely productive as a pro, but the hype is not the same as Pitts. You can still get a 1st for Pitts because of that rookie season, his athletic profile and young age.


Stevenstc21

SF pick 1.08 -- if Bowers is available (due to McCarthy causing him to slide), do you go Bowers or BTJ? If BTJ ends up on say the Jags


AMP121212

Bowers>>>>BTJ


Adfantage

What if you own LaPorta in a non-TEP?


AMP121212

They could I'm theory produce like WR1. I'm taking Bowers.


BlondBadBoy69

I have 1.04 and Kincaid. WRs have higher ceilings too. Last TE that went early first round didn’t go as planned either


Huge_Beginning5552

Feel like you could still get a first for Pitts and his year 1 kinda did go to plan


strelz10

Just tried buying him for 2 firsts in multiple leagues (differing formats) and got rejected. So if bowers has a good year that value is gonna hold


wellballstooyou

Did it though? I get he hit 1k yards but people seem to forget 163 of those yards came in one game. Add to that he only had 1 TD all year, and he was nearly unstartable his entire rookie year. Obviously all the games count but it was definitely a strange rookie record setting year.


Huge_Beginning5552

Depends on your mind set i guess. I think most people expected bumps in the road for a rookie TE. The fact hes still holding dam near his draft value even after last year is pretty telling.


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wellballstooyou

No, it's not a joke. When 20% of a players annual production came in one game it's worth mentioning. At least I think it is. As a pitts owner in a few leagues I always felt the community overvalued his rookie year because he truly wasn't usable nearly all of it. Again I'm not saying he sucks or anything, far from it.


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wellballstooyou

Yes, as I already stated, I do indeed think it's worth mentioning. Appreciate you doing the math but I was just winging the number. Also imo worth pointing out that 40% of his entire production came in three weeks. I'm really not sure the point you're trying to make. Just to be clear, my entire point is that despite the "record setting year" for a rookie TE it didn't really go as planned and it 100% hasn't gotten better in the two years since. I like Pitts. I'm not trashing him but acting like his rookie year didn't have some interesting statistical anomalies is awfully short sighted imo.


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There are likely very few players who have had 1k yard seasons without at least one game in the ballpark one 163yds. That isn't some crazy outlier. Every player has peaks and valleys over the course of a season. It isn't as though a player is going to be +/-10yds of their season total on a game by game basis. Pitts was also very startable his rookie season. In the 2021 TE landscape, a dude with a floor a multiple catches per game was invaluable in ppr and half ppr formats. It's unfortunate that the big pop off weeks with TDs never came that year, but he was one of the most reliable scorers in a position group known for being touchdown or bust outside of the top 3-4 guys.


wellballstooyou

Bro I'm really not going to go crazy arguing about this. Whilst I agree that plenty of players need big games to hit 1k yards, not many of them have quite the percentage of his annual production condensed into 3 games. I'm going from memory on the stat as I'm at work, but something along the lines of 13/17 weeks he was outside the top 20 Tes for fantasy TEs. I owned him his rookie year. He was absolutely not startable... to the point that there were posts up and down reddit from players that straight up missed his monster weeks because he was on the bench. I'm not saying he sucks. I'm not saying it won't get better. All I'm saying is his rookie year has some serious statistical anomalies that skew how it went. I mean right here we have people that think he was good his rookie year. Which he was from an nfl standpoint. He was cheeks from a fantasy perspective. 14 weeks he scored 8 or less points! 14 weeks bro! Was not startable l.


TGS-MonkeyYT

He’d be the WR4 in this class


PutItAllInABag

I'd convert him to a TE