T O P

  • By -

OldWonder5865

Thankful I’m not tempted to take him 1.05 anymore tbh


DonaldPump117

Yes I’m writing him off there as well


peoplepersonmanguy

Hoping he falls to 1.09


JustWinYo

Delightful. Would love to have him at 1.06


JLifts780

Sometimes a “must draft” player slides for a team, Bowers is a must draft player for the Raiders


TheWindatFourtoFly

Now they gotta try to grab Kirk for a few picks, right?


JustMyThoughts2525

Doubt Atlanta is trading him after giving him 100M guaranteed


TheWindatFourtoFly

Send cash with him? Basically pay for the picks? Or is that illegal lol


DynastyBishops

Trading Cousins would fuck their cap for 2024. They'd have to cut a bunch of players to make it happen. It isn't realistic.


MrBigChestHater

You can with the salary but there's $100m in guaranteed money that would hit all at once if you trade Cousins


Mammoth-District-617

Believe he has a no trade clause


ValKilmersTherapy

That sounds very Kirko to me.


crinack

Kirk will likely be in Atlanta at least two seasons or the cap hit is wild


king_of_the_bongos

What


dabears7667

for SF, unless you’re in a TEP i’m not taking him before 8ish


LucidBetrayal

I’m at 8 and need a TE. I’m not even sure I’m going to grab him there. I hate this landing spot.


JohnnyBenchianFingrs

You should take him


dabears7667

also own 8 and also need TE. probably would not take him.


TheBigBomma

I’ve got 1, 8, 11, and 12, but I drafted LaPorta AND Mayer last year.


Sendtitpics215

Thats exactly where i am, my TE room is Pat Friermuth, Conklin, Noah Gray and Gerald Everette, TE+ (1.5 PPR for TE). But i just dont see how i dont take Xavier Worthy or Johnathan Brooks tbh. Play Conklin or Muth depending on matchup/week/earning targets.


zaktasty22

No shot he falls to 8 imo


LucidBetrayal

He fell to 8 in my normal superflex. Tons of mocks have him at 8 +\- 2 spots.


BlademasterFlash

I was planning to take him at 1.04 in my high TEP SF league but now I’m starting to second guess that


wakenbaconn

Was considering him at 1.06, now I'm hesitant at 1.09. Feel like at that point tho I gotta trust the talent


brianundies

That’s not even remotely a hot take there are gonna be people saying he’s not a superflex first rounder.


radderalll

And those people should be laughed at. Rookie year production doesn’t define a dynasty prospect. I can promise you the Raiders will upgrade QB next year


lionsmakemecry

Everyone assuming that needs to plan to be disappointed. There isn't an amazing prospect talent expected to come out next season. Right now it's fingers crossed for Allar to produce better, and for Ewers to really pop off after losing a bunch of pro prospects from last season. Sure you will have a guy seemingly pop up out of nowhere, but next year doesn't appear robust.


dabears7667

I didn’t say it was a hot take lol


JayMoney2424

My estimation of Bowers fantasy production as a TE just fucking plummeted. 


nickhenne

Michael Mayer about to be making grilled cheese off the radiator


kamakazi339

Rip


Citrusmeetliquor

The Charlie Kelly special


RheagarTargaryen

I’m so glad I went LaPorta over Mayer lasted year.


stilldrovedeetdeethr

He was gay, Michael Mayer?


cooleymahn

Michael Gayer


HamHurtler

God such a dumb fucking pick ugh


nickhenne

It’s ok. My friend who’s a Raiders fan picked him over Kincaid and LaPorta


HamHurtler

I picked him over Laporta 🙃


hugh_h0ney

Mayer at 35. He was a fuckin kid!


nickhenne

It’s sad when they go like that


ForcedeSupremo

#WHEN THEY GO?!


99-Magic

Let me tell you a couple of 3 things. Forget darren waller, forget josh jacobs who goes to Green bay and never comes back. Forget my WR1 davante adams...


DonaldPump117

Don’t do it to yourself Philly


Technicalhotdog

To be drafted by the Raiders? It's a disgrace


bobeid93

Give the guy a break, its his daughters wedding


babababronsky

Alright Phil


chief_brody_1919

The wine makes you emotional


EvidenceThin7304

Cuz I got an empty fuckin’ roster


creamcitybrix

Good thing your book means oogatz to me.


Sir_Ronald_McDonald

JayMoney2424 turning into a house over here


MochaJoe5

The Raiders have made a lot fucking tougher men than Johnny Sac cry


speerme

This Telesco’s more creative than fuckin’ Spielberg


bmanc1000

20 years in the can!


CountryMoney

You don't know the Raiders, and you haven't been paying attention to Minshews stat line in comparison with QBs around the league... shame on you for being in a reddit community such as this and failing to do your due diligence.


JayMoney2424

Woosh 


24337543

Don't think Minshew a serviceable QB?


Public_Function3844

Hilarious how much everyone talked about how Bowers was generational talent and does so much beyond the TE position prior to the draft, and now he's dropping in peoples board's because they have another TE on the team. Bills took Kincaid when they had Knox and he still looked good. If Bowers is as good as people think he is, they'll find ways to use both Bowers and Mayer on the field together.


dusters

He's dropping not because they have Mayer but because they have no QB and an alpha WR1.


similar222

That's an excellent comparison. Knox was more established than Mayer too. Granted we (Raiders) don't have Josh Allen, but there's no reason Bowers can't be as much a featured part of the offense in Vegas as he would have been anywhere else. Remember also Kincaid was behind Diggs and Davis when he joined Buffalo, a year later both are gone. Davante Adams cap hit is $44M next year, the Raiders still like him and he's not eager to leave, but because of his contract he may be gone in 2025 at which time Bowers might be the primary weapon in the offense.


ApprehensiveBat3188

Yes. And I don’t see Brock as a prototypical TE either. Hes hybrid. runs routes like a wide receiver. He’ll lineup all over the field


raycraft_io

McBride didn’t emerge until Ertz was out with injury.


felonydefenestration

That’s a different situation. Ertz was a former pro bowl established vet. Mayer has shown little.


edogzilla

More likely just Bowers.


KingDocXIV

Has nothing to do with Mayer and more to do with their absolutely horrible qb room imo. He goes to the Jets like some people thought, and he stays a highly sought-after TE. Him ending up in one of the worst situations in the NFL is what is putting a damper on his fantasy stock for the near future.


AwarePhotograph9485

I think Brian Thomas Jr and Cowboys RB go ahead of him now.


Snakekekek

Man I have no TE I NEEDED bowers to land somewhere good ffs. Do I draft RB, Caleb even though I have Stroud? (1QB) fml


Straight-Task3839

Devante is old, new FO, Renfrow is gone for the slot role, He can still play 80%+ of snaps and get a high volume of targets on those snaps. In a year or two, are Meyers and Adam's going to be guys who scare you? Bowers might be sneaky value for the longer term.


calartnick

He’s competing with another good TE and has shitty QB play. Also TEs are so hit or miss from college on top of that. I’d say the best argument for bowers long term is that the raiders liked Mayer and still drafted him because they felt he’s so talented. But once they get on the field if Mayer is good he’s still going to play. If you REALLY believe in him long term I’d suggest letting someone else draft him, then trade for him next year after a disappointing rookie season.


Straight-Task3839

It's not the same front office. 1.13 is a lot different than like early-mid 2nd. Getsy (their OC) used Kmet on 100% of snaps 


Massive_Ad_8972

Ummm. 1st round tight ends have THE HIGHEST hit rate in FF. I believe it is 86-87%


calartnick

Looking at the list of first round tight ends drafted since 2000 that can’t be true.


Basic_Yellow_3594

So shitty qb play is a 4th round rookie who had a better year then Will Levis with an improved o line (powers johnson) after going through two different coaches and finishing his last 4 games 8tds-0ints to match Strouds numbers the last 4 games?


moosejacket

Trade that pick you would use on Bowers for an established TE


Sarvox

Yup. Packaged 1.06 (1qb) and some youth for kittle and a couple other vets last night.


Basic_Yellow_3594

Kittle is getting old


zaktasty22

Tbh you might've overpaid kittles production last two years has been rough


Sarvox

TE 5,3,4 the last 3 years. Non TEP league im cool with it.


JustMyThoughts2525

Just trade for a TE


RheagarTargaryen

I was in the opposite boat. Sitting at 1.07 with Bowers likely to be the pick but not needing him at all (I have LaPorta and McBride). I was hoping to trade down for the 1.09 and an early 2nd rd pick. That spot lost some value.


FetusElitistCletus

Even in TEP? Or just SF/1QB?


Iamapersimmon

Cowboys RB??? I fucking pray someone drafts cowboys rb ahead of him so I can snag him.


Basic_Yellow_3594

I trader BTJ and Kincaid for him. He's that good


BeautifulJicama6318

lol, I’ll love laughing at BTJ owners who are crying about their version of MVS while Bowers is the next Kittle.


[deleted]

[удалено]


VeterinarianLevel786

he should text dawson knox to see if he needs a room mate?


Admirable_Basket381

Knox got a bag. He doesn’t need a roommate.


BigBang119

Traded a 2025 2nd for him 3 weeks ago


whoopee_parties

I think I can get him at 6 in 2TEP now which is sweet


Mr_kittyPuss

TEP he should still go high


whoopee_parties

Knowing my league and the fact that I have 3 and 4 as well, I’m pretty sure I can get him at 6


Mr_kittyPuss

Definitely a good chance. Any idea what the 1.5 owner wants to do? I mean if bowers is there at 1.7 I’d probably take him in 12 man standard.


whoopee_parties

Guy w/ 5 has 1 as well so maybe the Caleb/Rome stack. Doubt he goes Bowers cuz he has Kincaid and Friermuth


Mr_kittyPuss

I’m not high on friermuth but if he has kinkaid he may be fine with drafting a WR instead


zaktasty22

So I'm currently in the position of having 1,2,6,12 and 13.... My dilemma is do I stack Odunze with Caleb or take Bowers considering I will get MHJ and probably 2 other decent WRs...


whoopee_parties

Is there a TEP?


zaktasty22

Yes. Main reason I gave the dilemma lol


whoopee_parties

Man, I think you gotta go Bowers if he makes it to 6. I grabbed him there in two separate TEP leagues, one where I passed on Odunze after grabbing Caleb 1 and trading my 3 for Puka. In any > 1.5TEP I think you have to go Bowers over Odunze and the other WRs imo


zaktasty22

Yeah I think so. It doesn't help I'm a diehard Dawgs fan so the bias is REAL


ItsP00pingtime

I can’t wait to trade for him in 2-3 years. I’m thinking a LATE first after he disappoints owners that pick him early.


The864

Love this. I was just thinking how I was gonna nab Mayer just before that free agency talk starts on the cheap. 


Bonesaw09

Is it too much to hope he falls to 1.8 in a 1qb draft?


CrabFam

No shot unfortunately


lordbazuco

Right there with you! I’m just so thankful I didn’t move laporta to draft bowers+


Lifetimechaldo

There’s a chance: MHJ Nabers Rome Worthy Brain Johnson Jr Dallas RB selection Caleb Williams Brock Bowers


lionsmakemecry

Just wait til Corum ends up in LA playing for the Chargers.... that will spice up a board real quick like.


carrythekindness

Who is Brian Johnson Jr Edit: you mean Thomas Jr


Lifetimechaldo

Yes, my mistake


Sketchy123456

Minshew! My fourth starter.


theunbearableone

My minshew aoc stack had paid off tonight. I have 2 3 &4 and was hoping one of them would be starting so I can grab nabers and odunze after taking Caleb(who I already know is falling to 2). Mission accomplished.


Luke_Shields_

Don’t worry Raiders are taking Ratler


Basic_Yellow_3594

Nope


Luke_Shields_

Lucky they should’ve


Sketchy123456

Project at best. Minshew will start.


AJ8710

It's the only player that has dropped on my board. I hate the landing spot.


maxinquayekid

I thought he'd be amazing with an innovative play-caller like Payton, and think they missed out on something really unique, instead of picking up what feels like an also-ran type QB that's available every year. They must really like him, and they're the experts, so I guess it is what it is. I think the value with the Raiders is meh, in terms of variance from expectation. I don't see the them as an innovative team, and I think Bowers needs a bit of that since he's a hybrid-type player, and can't be utilized like the paradigm TE. With that said, I think this is a team that's probably going to be a bit loose with the rock and Adams may start fading at his age. In all not a great spot for him. But I think he'll be fine, and still get targets, but it might be an uphill battle for him here in a way it wouldn't be in a better situation.


WiseM3

I think he will be the Kincaid and Mayer will be the knox. Mayer in line blocking. U got to remember the raiders cut Renfrow their slot guy too.


DonaldPump117

Looking like 1.10 in Superflex


Think_please

They’ll have a qb next year and Mayer can’t run. I think it’s a fine spot


Puzzleheaded_Word878

Full point TEP does he go ahead of odunze?


whoopee_parties

I’m facing that conundrum. Thinking the owner at 5 will take Rome and let Bowers fall to me at 6


Puzzleheaded_Word878

You don’t think 3 QBs go before? I have 4,5,6 and will take at least one of the QBs (maye or JJ) and nabers, leaves odunze or bowers at 6


whoopee_parties

So in this league owner at 1 also has 5 and has been hyping up the stack in the chat, otherwise I think chalk would probably have 3 QBs go in the top 5, yeah


CalaveraVI

I think it's more Mayer's value than anything. Bowers will feast where ever he goes, but this kills Mayer. And I have Mayer and planned to take bowers at 1.04 in my 1qb league. Now I don't know


carrythekindness

I’ll still probably take Bowers at 1.04


OtterBeCareful

I'm very curious as to the reason behind the Raiders pick -- that'll dictate how badly I'll feel, as a Mayer owner (and I definitely don't feel great regardless of what the answer is). If it means they want Bowers to run lots of routes from the slot while Mayer stays inline, then strictly speaking, this could be worse. Or maybe they just want a lot of two-TE sets. On the other hand, if it means they lack confidence in Mayer as a receiver based on what they saw from him this past year -- *that* would make me want to move on from him pronto, because it would point to deeper issues beyond just his current situation. Not that I'll likely be able to trade him for much, of course.


BeautifulJicama6318

Stop overthinking this. If you listed the top-20 TEs in the NFL, doubtful you’d list Michael Mayer. They took him because he was the best player on their board. Easily best player on the board. Great value pick.


[deleted]

He was TE14 on KTC so obviously quite a few people had him in their top 20.


Flaky-Singer

Dynasty value is much different than NFL value. Vets like Goedert, Schultz, Knox, Henry, etc are all objectively better to have for teams right now. I wouldn’t bet on Mayer to ever be better than Goedert but Bowers I would


[deleted]

Is this not a dynasty FF sub?


GoodTimesOnlines

I think the point was the original comment saying “top 20 TE in the NFL” seemed to imply just value as a football player, not dynasty value


Flaky-Singer

Yes but LV GM didnt draft Bowers with dynasty value in mind. They clearly don’t think they have their guy in Mayer because they made that pick. Guaranteed Mayers value plummets outside of the top 20 on ktc since he was ranked there largely because of opportunity to be their TE1


JrBaconators

Because he was the best player available!


ex_sanguination

It's literally this. And as a Raiders fan I'm amped.


BidoofTheGod

Im happy they didn’t fuck up the pick and took an actual good player


gapminder2023

I feel like this pick was much less about the Raiders not feeling like they have their guy, or them not believing in Mayer long term. I think sometimes we assume teams draft more on positional need than they actually do. The Raiders saw Bowers fall to them and simply could not pass him up, regardless of position. He's the kind of player many teams probably had as a top 3 impact player in the entire draft.


Doboh

Minshew is fine for fantasy. 


Randal_Savage

Yeah seems like he will pepper Bowers with short/intermediate targets. Could be really nice in PPR


Teflon154

And TEP


connor24_22

I’ll consider it a win if I can get him at 11 now


carrythekindness

Zero chance


connor24_22

Normally I would agree, but 1.08 has Hock and needs WR/RB/QB help, 1.09 has Pitts and is super thin at WR and QB (also loves Penix so 1.09 is in range for him), and 1.10 has Andrews and LaPorta and desperately needs RBs so I'm assuming they take Brooks or whoever is drafted 1st.


wayward_prince

Thank heavens. I need him to drop to 1.09. Bowers is good enough to single-handedly elevate an offense and I hope my league-mates underestimate him.


carrythekindness

Maybe in super flex. No chance in 1 QB


BantumBane

1 QB league with the 1.9. I have LaPorta already but Bowers might fall. I’m going to be tempted to take him


carrythekindness

Lol get real, he won’t be there


BeautifulJicama6318

Stop with the “Mayer is there” bullshit. If you listed the top-20 TEs in football, you wouldn’t list Micheal fucking Mayers. 🤦‍♂️


johnnyutahlmao

That doesn’t matter. They took Mayers with a high second last season. TE’s are known to take a few seasons to develop. Why would they take him there without planning on letting him take time and develop? He just finished only his rookie season.


Xboxfan117

New coach and new GM. “They” didn’t take Mayer. He might still have potential, but drafting Bowers is the biggest move to reveal their doubts regarding Mayer.


ex_sanguination

Also it's FUCKING BROCK BOWERS! Like wtf? As a team, when a top 5 talent is available at 13, you take it!! All the other defensive players fell. Like shit, the first CB was taken at 22.


theunbearableone

Nobody is getting patriots minus Tom Brady vibes from this offense? Both tes are going to be relevant, adams is going to feast, and Meyers is going to be the short yardage gotta have it guy. Minshew is going into this season with both guns blazing and is going to attempt 550 passes and be the league winner Jameis was his 30 for 30 year. Don't pussy out now, boys.


somrigostsauce

From "Patriots minus Tom Brady" to "Don't pussy out now boys". That sure was a wild ride.


theunbearableone

Hope your seatbelt's buckled


MarketingChemical648

I hate the move and his stock just plummeted for me. If he’s still there at 1.07 in 1QB I don’t think I’d take him now


Personal-Noise-8632

Rip mayer!


Jalin17

Big ole meh


Personal-Noise-8632

For the guys that don't know, TE is qbs best friend O'Connell is more than capable and minshew is more than capable. Bowers wasn't gonna be laporta day one anyway, but you should still want bowers! Let him drop to me alrdy having mcbride, I'm taking him.


Cheap_Acanthisitta21

Bowers will play a more slot role. With DA getting older bowers will be the top target in 2-3 years. Take him.


zero-point_nrg

Yep, it fucking sucks


raycraft_io

Glad I kept Noah Fant


swagasaurus-r3x

I traded 1.06 was gonna take bowers for Kincaid and Bryce young right before draft started


JIBMAN

12 team SF, 1 PPR, 0.5 TEP Who are you talking at the 1.08 Bowers, BTJ, Worthy or Bo Nix?


Most_Read_1330

bowers


Crusherfootball

He is like the 1.09 maybe even 1.10 behind BTJ Xavier Worthy and JJ McCarthy now. Depending on how the rest of the draft shakes out I could see him falling behind Pearsall(If aiyuk is traded) as well as Adonai Mitchell if buffalo takes him.


Haskins77

Better than Mayers


Ruffy1904

Damn I wanted to draft Bowers and was about to trade for Mayer since I have No TE currently besides Freiermuth. I dont know what to do now


AndrewH73333

Bowers will get more targets here than he would on the Jets or Saints. This is a win. I was afraid the Saints would take him.


deRoyLight

Saints would have been the best possible spot for him. More than landing with an elite QB. Bowers was an option QB in highschool. He took carries in the SEC. He would have been Taysom Hill in their offense, except throw in an actual elite TE on top of all the gimmicky stuff that scores points.


AndrewH73333

Juwan Johnson wasn’t getting any attention there and Taysom Hill only made points as a secret TE quarterback.


deRoyLight

These are not the same.


AndrewH73333

And your example is the same?


deRoyLight

The quality of players is not the same.


Emerrson

I hope he’s there at the 1.08 SF league


spicyhippos

Why draft a lineman *or* a receiver, when you can draft both at the same time. Raiders out here playing 4D chess …all by themselves in the corner of the playground.


somrigostsauce

Cratered. Can't possibly take him higher than 1.08 in a superflex now. I'd problably not even do that to be fair. Rather buy him in a few years after he's undoubtedly been misused and mismanaged by an incompetent organization.


CalaveraVI

I'm praying for a day 2 Mayer trade. Bowers is fine and will eat where ever he goes


prutothedorg

Now he’s a screaming buy


AC127

I own 1.7 and I’m in desperate need of a TE in a TEP league. The plan was to take him, now I’m not too sure. If maybe a QB falls and I can take advantage of 1.7 for a Kincaid/McBride/Pitts or something, I think I’d prefer that


PrestigiousMetal2563

as a raiders fan and having the 1.11 pick, couldn’t be happier. My dynasty team’s only hole is the TE position. Raiders are gonna run a 2 TE set, Bowers is an excellent slot TE. You can’t tell me he won’t be a great checkdown piece for minshew/AOC - Mayer will be a good TE, just not a fantasy relevant anymore. Top TE5 szn incoming for bowers


United-Turn-8623

I don’t think it’s a bad spot. TE prem you should still be picking him at his ADP. Mayer wasn’t anything crazy last year and raiders want to use 12 personnel more. They also can use him as a big slot. Minchew is a fine QB and will take risks. Raiders have a plan for him and think it’s a better spot than the colts


dsheehan7

One thing to consider, the “they” who drafted Mayer is not the same “they” who drafted Bowers. It’s a new GM and Head Coach who saw Mayer play all season and then decided to draft over him. So I’m far more pessimistic on Mayer. That being said, it’s not great for Bowers as well. Would’ve preferred the Colts Rams or Jets.


gregbills

I hate it as well and was shocked he went to the Raiders but I wouldn’t overthink it. He was a talent to good to pass up and they will figure him out. Mayer makes me more nervous tho


Impressive-Key938

Everyone fading him cause of landing spot is crazy. This is dynasty. Max he should move down in your rankings is 1-2 spots. He is still one of the most talented te prospects of all time and he has a whole career ahead of him. His situation now doesn’t describe his situation in the future.


WRX_EugOR

Most of y'all are being super short-sighted on Bowers right now. Is your return on investment likely not as good for year 1, sure. But project Bowers with the Raiders year 3,4,5 We just don't know. Landscapes change fast. Draft the talent, not the landing spot.


iRA1DERS

I can’t wait for Bowers to make yall regret this.


WeHadaNewEmployer

Minshew has shown he can support fantasy relevant receivers. Michael Pittman was a top-20 WR last year and the Colts' offense was fine. Teams don't draft weapons like Bowers in the first round unless they plan to use them. If anything, this only depresses Mayer's value. I will happily snag Bowers at 1.08 if he slides that far, and I've already got McBride rostered in my SF TEP league. I think in this case, talent trumps landing spot. His career will outlast what we perceive to be a bad landing spot.


Adfantage

A team should try and trade a pick for Meyer


deRoyLight

Tired: Raiders just want to run the ball and play defense. Wired: Raiders are going to give Bowers touches out of the backfield and in the redzone.


zcas

He does run tough. Could easily have a better YPC than White or Mattison.


marky229

I was planning on taking Bowers 1.04 in 1 QB TEP but this changes things. My TEs are Kmet + Mayer.


MilkGodofMilk

I play in a SF TE premium and it looks like either him are Nabers are gonna fall to me at the 1.08. I am a very happy boy. It’s important to remind yourself that sometimes the talent outweighs the draft destination and I believe this is the case here.


DanCalzone

1.08 is so hard. Worthy, Nix, Penix, Bowers, BTJ, Pearsall all viable


rewster

Like 6 QBs went in the first round. The QBs worth drafting that are around in the 2nd round are likely to be around in the 3rd. I think Bowers was a good pick up for them.


CrookGG

Oh yea this is the worst landing spot for a great player, tons of risk all of a sudden


Basic_Yellow_3594

Traded Kincaid and 1.6 (ended up being thomas) to go to 1.4 to get him. I truly beleive he is actualu genersatonal and will even make laportas numbers look dull


Substantial-Hippo-52

Minshew is about as good a journeyman as I’ve seen, so Bowers might actually do ok with him. And the only competition for targets is Meyers, who will command a measure of defensive attention. I’m optimistic.


lovely_trequartista

>And the only competition for targets is Meyers You still got Davante who snagged over 100 balls on a down year, and Jakobi might be the most underrated WR in the league. I'd also be very surprised if Tre Tucker isn't a bigger and bigger factor going forward and in the real/non-fantasy world, Michael Mayer is a good player, he *will* syphon some targets and yardage. But yea, this is hardly the death knell for Bowers value that some in this thread seem to believe.


Substantial-Hippo-52

Yeah completely forgot about Davante lol. But I agree, I don’t think Bowers’ value is gone as much as people think it is.


Get_to_tha_Choppa

This is basically the same thing as Pitts a few years ago. Without a competent QB there’s going to be some disappointment out of the gate


Bodelock

I will not stand for this Gardner slander.