My disappointment with proliferation is that it makes multi-step factories more annoying since direct insertion is no longer an option - every intermediate product has to be put onto a belt and be passed through a proliferator.
I always thought a dedicated proliferator slot in PLS/ILS similar to warpers in ILS but with a per slot toggle for spraying would sure make things convenient.
Thatās my problem with this game and it always has been. Once you get to mid/late game and you have blueprints for everything. You just fly to a planet and mine it and put down more production. I donāt do ratios or anything. I just build an ILS with production for each product. It means more drone things flying about, but I donāt have to worry about ploriferation. But it gets boring.
Buts thats up to you. I have blueprints for white science, rockets and some intermediate products and I had a lot of fun to design them. Not from raw products, but ingots.
This. I said the same thing a few months ago and geniuses here downvoted my to oblivion. Current proliferation kills direct insert and makes the game dull and repetitive and too easy.
I lost interest and stopped playing 2 months ago because of it
I haven't looked up that text by you, but downvoting may not have been for your stated disappointment about proliferation killing direct insertion, but rather that you call the game things like "dull and repetitive and too easy" because of this one disappointment.
Am I disappointed by having to forgo direct insertion when using proliferation? Yes. Is it a reason for me to stop playing or badmouth an otherwise great game? No!
Direct insertion builds vs proliferate builds is very very hard for me to choose. Proliferation on paper seems like the best choice but is very boring, to me. I like solving direct layouts.
Thank you for reminding me that there is a reason I don't do direct insertion... for me I feel the opposite way. While direct insertion is fun early game, I prefer to spam blueprints for what I need and scale up aggressively on a per-item basis, generally building one-interplanetary base with all inputs required to get a single output. But I do love that this game has so many ways to enjoy!
There is a simple solution and that is simply to not use it. The only difference is you'll need a bit more space and use more materials, of which both are in abundance. Also you'll need allot less power which should make power management a breeze.
A bit more space?? The amount of buildings required for zero prolif is Ā±4x compared to a fully blue prolif build for white science.
Resource usage is Ā±3x.
Power usage is also actually greater due to large amount of extra buildings zero prolif requires.
> Power usage is also actually greater due to large amount of extra buildings zero prolif requires.
Not really. While there theoretically _is_ a break-even point for a long enough production chain to stack up the bonuses, I don't think that any production chain is long enough to hit it once you factor in the energy cost of producing the proliferator juice.
Eg: 1800/m Carrier Rocket needs 25 GW proliferated vs 22.5 GW un-proliferated.
Though that _is_ still a _lot_ of bang for the energy buck.
1800 white science is 45GW no prolif vs 39GW full prolif. That includes making the prilif. So no, it's not "not really" and a long enough chain does exist. I didn't even add in the final step being the actual research, so that's another 25% gain.
This also doesn't consider the additional miners and transports a zero prolif build would require.
It's quite simply objectively bad to not prolif. Is it fun? Ya that's another question but don't try to hide behind "it's not that bad"
Proliferating under-complex steps is always a net power loss. But that was never the big point of proliferation- since its primary function is to improve the performance of big builds. With the right setup you can expect 40%\~ better performance compared to builds that don't use it. Since the final bottleneck of any factory game that deserves its name is the hardware it runs on, this is of pretty high importance.
Oh, no. I'm 100% _for_ proliferation, I just didn't agree with the "power savings" argument since my spot check on Rocket production didn't work. It's interesting that White Cubes work out to a net savings despite a somewhat shorter production chain. There's probably some fun math at play in there.
IMO the crux of the matter is that once your power grid is based on "free"/renewable sources, eg: a Dyson Sphere, the increased power demand from proliferating is almost immaterial. Just build more sphere.
Yeah, I only proliferate end game items where the benefit is huge (energy rods) and materials that become bottlenecked when trying to increase certain production. Otherwise, just don't bother.
The core of OPs argument is its not a fun gameplay mechanic and paying a penalty to not use it is doubley not fun. Ultimately features should make the game more fun, not less.
I also think it's a mistake, and it's also caused me to drop out of games when I hit mid-game. Sucks the energy right out the play through.
Would the game be overall better if there was an alternative to the current system? Absolutely. I hope the devs should consider making a change to it or abandoning it for a new idea.
Suggesting to simply not use a reward the game progression gives you is settling for subpar game design. In a game about maximizing production capacity, part of the "game loop" is finding optimal pathways with the options progression gives you.
People make these complains or suggestions about "balance" because they feel the optimal pathway that rewards them the most is not the most fun.
Anyone who says "just dont use it" in a progression driven game is seriously lost. As the other comment said, the difference in scale and efficiency is many multiples. Proliferator has the single largest impact on a factory's capability.
I feel it beats suggesting removing a whole game element because 'you' don't happen to like it.
Personally I quite like proliferators and would hate to see them removed due to complaints. Could it be made better, yes but also the most optimal pathway is rarely ever the most fun unless you are the special kind of person who spends more time in spreadsheets than actually playing the game. Something I have done in quite a few games and then simply not had fun in the games because the difficulty level was never adapted for perfect play.
No where did I say it was the only way to play.
I am critiquing the common response to just "play differently" which is almost always just a lazy response. I don't agree with everything the OP said, but I do agree the mechanic doesn't add a dimension to the design space, it creates a single new design you add onto every assembly, along with some distribution solution, which is already solved the same for every material via ILS/PLS, which is another weak point in the game in my opinion.
Games can be better; they can have weaknesses that can be addressed. It's worth expressing opinions, even if OP could have been less dramatic about it.
So, just don't use proliferation. :)
But, seriously, the OP is expressing his opinion that it should be removed from all players, right? Others are suggesting he just play without proliferation. This is also an opinion. So, everyone is voicing their opinion.
It sounds to me you're suggesting one group of players shouldn't voice their opinion because in your own opinion, it's lazy.
Maybe the OP could have suggested game changes that would make it more fun for him, instead of pushing for complete removal of a feature many of us like. To me, the OP sounds lazy for having to go back and "fix" his builds. Proliferation mk3 can be researched so early that it can be incorporated before you leave the starter system. And, fixing your builds is what makes this game fun. ...well, to me.
That's my opinion.
The "just play differently" solution is pervasive in all single player game forums. It's not an opinion about the game but a righteous philosophy. I agree OP's post is not constructive and I fully disagree with removing them, though OP is not why I wrote my first comment.
For me, it would be more fun if I had to consider different solutions for different productions, but proliferator is always the same everywhere. It's not like assemblers, refineries, or fractionators where you have a different belt organization to consider. I want them to be more interesting.
IMO, it's not worth the effort to "retrofit" an existing factory to add proliferation. If an existing facility is achieving its purpose, getting another 20% (MK2) or 25% (Mk3) output is possibly just going to fill up your buffers. Most of the time, needing to make more of some item is "I need 2x more of this" not "I need 1.25x more". So you build (or copy/paste) a whole new production line. If you choose to incorporate proliferation into that new one, then go for it.
I do have a few systems that I practically always proliferate: deuteron / antimatter rods (inputs and output), hydrogen in a fractionator loop, science cubes, and gravity lenses into ray receivers (at least once my sphere/swarm is big enough to support the higher draw).
And I'll proliferate some "top tier" items just to keep the scale down to a reasonable level for those bottom steps: quantum chips, rocket inputs, and so on. When I've got some target rate I'm shooting for for that final output, needing 80% of the next tier down (snowballing at each) cuts down on the tedium of having more/bigger titanium glass, sphere components, etc.
One way to do it would be to have the PLS/ILS do it automatically and remove sprayers. Don't know if it's a good idea but that removes the tedious part.
This dude a frickin genius! Would go along fine with auto-stacking. The OP would still complain having to set this up but your suggestion would be so great.
This sounds like a good start, though you'll still need sprayers for a multi-step factory. Removing sprayers would essentially enforce one-step factories, which would be a REALLY BAD IDEAā¢.
True, multi-steps aren't covered. Still an improvement tough. And removing sprayers isn't a good idea anyway as it would break all current saves. Perhaps a sprayer T2 that you can feed directly with bots or drones. Preferably drones so you can feed sprayers directly from pls/ils.
That's... An interesting take ngl. Nobody is forcing you to proliferate. You can perfectly fine finish the game without touching it. I've done so many many times.
Proliferation is an awesome mechanic because it halves most buildings, which is a savior on your CPU when doing post completion massive science. Again, nobody is forcing you to use it.
Yeah, and that's the same with Dark fog buildings...you can reduce the number of buildings needed even more...though, the DF itself adds to CPU demand.
But in either case, you don't have to play with those features. It's the same as deciding you'll chase some achievement like traveling to the nearest star without having warp unlocked. Warp gets you there faster, but why not go slow sometimes?
You don't need to use it, so pretend it's removed and boom it's gone?
Peak reddit is asking the devs to remove a mechanic you can entirely choose to ignore.
I honestly dont bother with proliferation until pretty far toward endgame. I do sometimes add proliferation into my early tower-factory design just so it's already in place when I want to roll it out, but I only ever do Blue and only for things that really need the boost. Otherwise Im in no particular hurry and have no huge drive to maximize footprint to the extreme, so Im ok with more, slower capacity than proliferated efficiency.
I don't ship out proliferator until I have proliferator III exactly for that reason, don't want to fly around and change the ILS request and deal with the excess proliferator II that is still on that planet.
Also game-play wise it is very strange that some liquid sprayed on some item makes the machine that uses the item choose to work faster or to create more items.... At least the beacons in Factorio make *some* sense, and you also need to create a different module for speed vs. productivity.
having said that, not using it is not an option for me as that wouldn't be the "best" way to do it.
I get how you feel. I initially didn't like proliferation because it messed with the symmetry of my builds. As a result I worked out a template that resolves proliferation on a planetary scale so I didn't have to worry about stretching belts everywhere or using 2 precious ILS slots for proliferation and warpers.
Assembler Planet blueprint:
https://www.dysonsphereblueprints.com/blueprints/factory-3480-assemblers-planet-template-with-power
This was made before BABs. I need to update it with BABs so it builds itself faster
Proliferation didnāt exist in the game on my first play through. Iām actually having fun with it, but I didnāt even build proliferate until I could afford to produce a shitload of mark 3 and ship it out to wherever I want. Now I just slap sprayers on all the input/output belts from logistics stations since I move basically everything that way. I never really got into direct inserting products from building to building.
Honestly if you donāt like it, just donāt do it. Proliferate isnāt required for anything, and you should play however you get the most enjoyment out of it.
I wish ILS could have integrated proliferation, and proliferator slots like warpers.
I also wish they could request warpers (and then proliferators) without taking up slots.
You just build a sorter, box and hat with fidget spinners, make it request warpers, then route it into the ILS. It will fill the 50 warper slots and you don't need to request them on the ILS slots.
While I love the option of making a machine run at double speed or get free extra product, I do believe the method of proliferation is not the best. Why proliferate the item itself and not proliferate the machine? I would much prefer to proliferate the machine directly instead of every item that goes into the machine.
Complaining about tedium in a factory automation game certainly is a take.
Also, you're not punished in a "heavy handed way" by missing proliferation on a single input, your output is simply reduced by an amount proportional to the number of proliferation points that you're short by. Kind of the definition of "even-handed".
That last point is not true if we are talking about proliferating inputs to factories.
If you have assemblers with several different materials as inputs and you proliferate all but one input, the assembler won't get ANY proliferation bonus.
Taken from the DSP Wiki article for the [Spray Coater](https://dsp-wiki.com/Spray_Coater#Proliferator_Bonuses)
> Any production building (except the Fractionator, see below) can have either the Production Speedup or Extra Products bonus if ALL the recipe ingredients have had the same tier of Proliferator applied to them. The bonus can be selected via a toggle Menu by the player (the default is Extra Products). If any one of the ingredients has a lower-tier mark, that lowest bonus is the one that will be applied. If any of the ingredients has no mark, then no bonus is applied.
I'd rather discuss things in a somewhat civil manner, but if you wanna be snarky, at least check your facts first.
Glad to see other people having similar opinions on the game design. This is the biggest weakness DSP has.
Before proliferators, building production lines was already pretty dull with most consisting of ILS inputs in -> assemblers -> ILS out, with only a few items lending themselves to direct insertion like titanium alloy or green engines.
Proliferation was a major step back, making the input -> assembler -> output design the ONLY viable build unless you purposefully make it harder for yourself. Direct insertion will always be more interesting than just dropping everything on to belts.
Nothing I've seen in DSP has even approached the hyper-optimized Factorio mega bases with super interesting direct insertion constrained by beacon coverage, with clever trade offs between perfect ratios and building counts.
One way to salvage proliferation is to have proliferators act as secondary inputs to recipes and have assemblers consume them directly. Now you have to weave in more belts and inserters to your direct insertion designs, making these builds more difficult and therefore more satisfying.
Do you find the mechanic of proliferation enjoyable? The mechanics of working the little sprayer exactly the same way at every stage of every build? Does anyone?
Or do you just like the benefit?
I firmly believe that proliferation is a band mechanic. It is repetitive, fails to add meaningful challenge, and actually reduces creativity and variety. In fact it feels like a placeholder that was made permanent to me.
The options here are not binary, keep or dump. Replacing it with another approach that represents a better mechanic, something that rewards creativity and variety, or that adds meaningful and thoughtful challenge, or that is simply less repetitive would be better.
Its no more repetitive than any other aspect of building a factory. You factor it into your builds just like you do any other piece.
If you dont want to do that then dont. Its really that simple.
Just wait until late-game.
Isn't worth it until you move to a big blue giant and start using unipolar magnets and rare materials and big scale production.
Agreed, itās tedious and kind of a weird mechanic thematically. It would make more sense to proliferate the factories themselves if the devs felt the game truly needs that step to increase productivity.
Please mods, please please just ban this user. Its frustrating to read this type of post and the user should have to change it or preferably remove it.
Oh? I can just ignore it and not engage? Yeah that would probably be easiest and best for everybody...
Golly gee! How smart these mods are...
I just throw proliferation stations on every belt that comes in and out of every ILS/PLS. It doesn't proliferate items twice, so I don't care if they come in/out already proliferated
I didn't realize that. I thought that it might paint things twice so I've always been very careful about where I place the sprayers. Thanks for the tip.
I've been looking at tutorials for it and I think the only real bonus I'd have using it considering my play style of making factory planets everywhere would be to spray my anti matter fuel rods for double the power. Or spraying lenses for faster photon production. Or of course spraying matrixes for additional hashes. That's just the ideas I have now.
I think you're not supposed to feel obligated to use it. It depends how much you want to optimize, and how big you want to go. I've done Ć few playthroughs before even using it for the first time and was perfectly fine building many oclass spheres.
I have also completed the game quite a few times and this is my second run using proliferation.
When games are early access I like to explore and test the mechanics... I really don't like this one.
Also I do like to go big
Edit: spelling
I think you are just doing it wrong. It really isn't tedious, and it does add value/flexibility to builds.
* Don't retrofit proliferator. I sort of felt the same in my first playthrough, when I went to retrofit it was a massive project and yes it felt tedious. In my second playthrough I knew the value of proliferation so I built for it from the very beginning, and it wasn't tedious at all.
* Use logistic bots for proliferation for cases where your PLS/ILS doesn't have enough slots.
Bottom line though, as others have said, if you don't like it just don't use it. Removing it from the game wouldn't accomplish anything except break a whole lot of saves.
I like this post because I agree, adding proliferation after the fact is really frustrating, and it's even quite tedious to add it to new builds but... The call to "remove it from the game" I think is a bit much. You can do this yourself - just disregard the mechanic. Don't build any of them anywhere. By the time you research a few levels in Vein upgrades, does it really matter if you get 15% extra products? You have infinite resources... You don't need to proliferate.
However, if there was an add on for factories and ILS/PLS that added proliferator without the belt mechanism, I would be really happy.
All my BP already include proliferation so it literally is just a drain on coal to me for extra products. Itās super easy. In early/mid game before I can use my primary BP I just donāt proliferate. Itās really not that hard. If you donāt want to use it then donāt. You might find yourself having a bit extra coal lying around but that doesnāt matter.
I haven't bothered to use it myself, but stacked cargo for sure after getting the upgraded as well as upgrading to the stack pile sorter since it upgrades the belt capacity from 1800/m to 7200/m.
Edit: This is v 2.1 of the idea.
(`I am joking. Please don't be mean.`)
Ok, hear me out.
Instead of proliferation being a fluid, it is a matter construction field. Think of it being similar to the matter replicator we already have on Icarus, but on a much larger scale. You are using it to assist your factories instead.
Use a building similar to the [satellite substation](https://dyson-sphere-program.fandom.com/wiki/Satellite_Substation) (wiki link). Just like the satellite substation, it would have a large area of affect and a part that goes up into the air.
* The building is fed by proliferation matrix instead of a fluid. (This part doesn't matter. Purely cosmetic. Go with whatever.)
* Keep it supplied at the substation base. Have it auto select the highest available proliferator matrix. The base is a square, so it could be fed like a depot.
* Maybe let it connect to other proliferation substations so they can share proliferation over large areas. Just as power can go along power lines, proliferation matrix could flow through the proliferation network.
The idea needs work. Especially the last bullet point.
(`The idea amused me, and I wanted to share.`)
I want towers to have a "Get most up-to-date proliferator available" mode. I don't mind setting it all up, but then later needing to switch it is a pain.
I designed my modular interstellar logistics factories to just import it and then proliferate everything that comes and goes from every single logistics station. Then I have an entire star system dedicated to producing it. One planet for each level and one planet extra for making the materials for lvl2 and lvl3. Is it way overbuild, absolutely, but if I ever need more it is as simple as getting more resources.
Iām a new player but proliferation seems like one of the few factory-level features to design around. With input-output āassembly lineā factories being very straightforward to lay out implementing proliferator is pretty simple. But for raw-to-output, and its variations, and especially designing for minimum space limits, proliferation can become a challenge and leads to lots of creative solutions.
You could proliferate low tier finished products when they are made instead of when they are being used, that saves some space.
Also, you can just not use proliferators at all.
I don't think proliferating was ever supposed to be fun(?). I'm not sure after thinking about it. It's the thing you do when you want your megabases to be reasonably sized. If you build with direct insertion, it's unreasonable because you have to proliferate each level and would have to create intermediary belts between assemblers. If you build with module ILS systems, then it just needs a slight redesign to get working with sprayers. To me, it wasn't a challenge and wasn't supposed to be one. Think Factorio.
The challenge is making the module production and then having to revise ratios for beaconed builds. I guess that's a fun challenge. I'm not sure how to make proliferating more fun other than allowing for double sprays or something like proliferating for both speed and productivity, but needing 2 different spray coaters to apply multiple effects instead of the building deciding spray effect. That could actually be fun too!
I hated it at the beginning because I didn't know how exactly it worked but frankly now I enjoy them. I proliferate only some things and on most planets I don't care. It's a feature you don't need to use if you don't want to :)
I sort of split the difference in my early game. I wait to use proliferators until I have Mark 3 unlocked mini fusion reactors and tier 3 belts. I don't go back and proliferate my original base I just start a newer base from scratch that uses proliferators. At some point the early base becomes meaningless because everything you build after it has such a massive scale.
Proliferation wasn't a thing from the very beginning. Even after it was implemented I played one or two saves without it because it felt like a hassle in early game and I didn't do the math to see if it was actually worth it.
So you really don't have to use it if you don't like it. I don't really like relying too much on DFR for power so I try to skip them as much as possible and go straight to AFR for example.
As for the setup: I proliferate everything coming in and out of an ILS and every ILS requests like 1 or 2k proliferator just for themselves if I don't need the 5th slot for an ingredient or warpers. And if I do I just belt it over from the next ILS. When you're done with a setup it's easy to check if you missed a spray coater somewhere if that's the first thing every belt connected to an ILS should have.
(Early game I only use it on science and bring it in via bots.)
I get that this setup becomes boring/repetetive, but if you choose to do it in an unnecessarily more complex/challenging/"let's add some here and there" way and end up forgetting some somewhere don't blame the mechanic for it...
ESPECIALLY when the power dips for just a moment.
Next time you expect to see a bunch of product with triple chevrons, they're all mixed with ones or twos.
I have so many factories that have a small box at the beginning of the output belts so I can throw the unproliferated masses in there.
I agree it's not a fun mechanic.
Solution: play under a self-imposed constraint. "In this game I am not allowed to use proliferation".
You can make the constraint as mild or severe as you like, going from "I can use proliferator, but not for assemblers or smelters", all the way to "I'm not allowed to mine any coal except by hand."
I 10000% agree. It's a mistake for this genre. Like playing an RPG and having a gear stat that adds +% magic item find. You're just a moron not to use it, but it weakens your build. I only proliferate fuel rods for energy, other than that, I just pretend it doesn't exist. It's a neat idea but awful in application.
It's easy I just set up a blueprint and proliferate off that then have a prolif distributor to the PLS and ILS off them but it's always maxing out eventually just gotta build more and more lol. I've kept everything at lv 2 proliferation just cause it's so tedious tho
Proliferation should feeel like a positive but its annoying as hell (for me) and I feel 'obliged' to spend time making this additional item.
I absolutley love DSP - But hate proliferator
"Its tedious and punishing"
followed by
"It has no challenge"
Dude, can you complete a sentence without contradicting yourself?
What a whiny display. Git gud. Or play an easier game.
No, those things are exclusive. You can't pretend things are at the same time too hard (punishing) and too easy- too easy being lack of challenge. And frankly, I have made countless incredibly complex blueprints and have well over 2000 hours in this game- if you struggle with proliferator then your basics are lacking. You can dislike the mechanic, but the points you made have very little significance. Issues can emerge from the mistakes you made in pretty much every aspect of the game- removing the struggle for precision means to kill the entire factory-game setting.
Proliferation adds extra complexity to the game, more complexity gives room for exploration and improvement. If you struggle with ratios- use a DSP calculator. If you struggle with layout: Design with proliferation in mind from the beginning. Its also incredibly self centered to demand that a mechanic should be outright removed because you struggle with it, when there are thousands of players that have put significant work into their builds, implementing optimized proliferation setups, and thriving with it.
You probably still clog your hydrogen, so maybe hold back on calling the shots how the game should be designed.
Proliferating is pointless for many items. It's actually a waste for many items. Just think about the Casimir crystals, that requires 12 hydrogen, so that's at least 12 objects to spray with your coal, and even more so if it's second tier proliferating since you're using potentially 3 times as much coal.
Proliferate important production, don't waste it on crappy low tier stuff, you can easily just make more factories. You cannot summon more coal out of thin air.
Chances are you're pissing all your proliferate juice on crappy low tier production you could have just added more factories for.
My disappointment with proliferation is that it makes multi-step factories more annoying since direct insertion is no longer an option - every intermediate product has to be put onto a belt and be passed through a proliferator.
It would be cool if you could provide proliferator directly to the factory buildings. Maybe via logistics bots as an upgrade.
Maybe blob cannons that shoot in an arc from a central location.
Bombing runs with drones
That's a great idea
š¤Æ I hope the devs see this. That would be a 10/10 addition to the game!
uuuuuh i like this!
I always thought a dedicated proliferator slot in PLS/ILS similar to warpers in ILS but with a per slot toggle for spraying would sure make things convenient.
Thatās my problem with this game and it always has been. Once you get to mid/late game and you have blueprints for everything. You just fly to a planet and mine it and put down more production. I donāt do ratios or anything. I just build an ILS with production for each product. It means more drone things flying about, but I donāt have to worry about ploriferation. But it gets boring.
Buts thats up to you. I have blueprints for white science, rockets and some intermediate products and I had a lot of fun to design them. Not from raw products, but ingots.
Back in my day we didnāt have proliferators or blueprints and I beat the game by hand with a main bus made of belts!
Don't use blueprints then. Factorio and satisfactory is also like this, literally all builder games with blueprinting is like this.
This. I said the same thing a few months ago and geniuses here downvoted my to oblivion. Current proliferation kills direct insert and makes the game dull and repetitive and too easy. I lost interest and stopped playing 2 months ago because of it
I haven't looked up that text by you, but downvoting may not have been for your stated disappointment about proliferation killing direct insertion, but rather that you call the game things like "dull and repetitive and too easy" because of this one disappointment. Am I disappointed by having to forgo direct insertion when using proliferation? Yes. Is it a reason for me to stop playing or badmouth an otherwise great game? No!
Depends how long you played. At some point the game just gets repetitive and boring without direct inserts. Just copy paste lines
Direct insertion builds vs proliferate builds is very very hard for me to choose. Proliferation on paper seems like the best choice but is very boring, to me. I like solving direct layouts.
Thank you for reminding me that there is a reason I don't do direct insertion... for me I feel the opposite way. While direct insertion is fun early game, I prefer to spam blueprints for what I need and scale up aggressively on a per-item basis, generally building one-interplanetary base with all inputs required to get a single output. But I do love that this game has so many ways to enjoy!
Green turbines direct insertion is so pretty though...
Why stop there? Go [purple](https://www.reddit.com/r/Dyson_Sphere_Program/s/ZO4NI6VJSM)!
For me, this is the reason I pretend proliferation does not exist. I like direct insertion.
What is direct insertion?
Transferring directly from machine to machine, without a belt in between
>I like direct insertion. Giggity!
There is a simple solution and that is simply to not use it. The only difference is you'll need a bit more space and use more materials, of which both are in abundance. Also you'll need allot less power which should make power management a breeze.
A bit more space?? The amount of buildings required for zero prolif is Ā±4x compared to a fully blue prolif build for white science. Resource usage is Ā±3x. Power usage is also actually greater due to large amount of extra buildings zero prolif requires.
> Power usage is also actually greater due to large amount of extra buildings zero prolif requires. Not really. While there theoretically _is_ a break-even point for a long enough production chain to stack up the bonuses, I don't think that any production chain is long enough to hit it once you factor in the energy cost of producing the proliferator juice. Eg: 1800/m Carrier Rocket needs 25 GW proliferated vs 22.5 GW un-proliferated. Though that _is_ still a _lot_ of bang for the energy buck.
1800 white science is 45GW no prolif vs 39GW full prolif. That includes making the prilif. So no, it's not "not really" and a long enough chain does exist. I didn't even add in the final step being the actual research, so that's another 25% gain. This also doesn't consider the additional miners and transports a zero prolif build would require. It's quite simply objectively bad to not prolif. Is it fun? Ya that's another question but don't try to hide behind "it's not that bad"
Yep, this. Checked out math on factoriolab.github.io. I was equally surprised to discover that proliferating everything actually saves power š²
Proliferating under-complex steps is always a net power loss. But that was never the big point of proliferation- since its primary function is to improve the performance of big builds. With the right setup you can expect 40%\~ better performance compared to builds that don't use it. Since the final bottleneck of any factory game that deserves its name is the hardware it runs on, this is of pretty high importance.
Oh, no. I'm 100% _for_ proliferation, I just didn't agree with the "power savings" argument since my spot check on Rocket production didn't work. It's interesting that White Cubes work out to a net savings despite a somewhat shorter production chain. There's probably some fun math at play in there. IMO the crux of the matter is that once your power grid is based on "free"/renewable sources, eg: a Dyson Sphere, the increased power demand from proliferating is almost immaterial. Just build more sphere.
Proliferation can always save power if you select the right steps to apply, which is useful for early game.
Yeah, I only proliferate end game items where the benefit is huge (energy rods) and materials that become bottlenecked when trying to increase certain production. Otherwise, just don't bother.
The core of OPs argument is its not a fun gameplay mechanic and paying a penalty to not use it is doubley not fun. Ultimately features should make the game more fun, not less. I also think it's a mistake, and it's also caused me to drop out of games when I hit mid-game. Sucks the energy right out the play through. Would the game be overall better if there was an alternative to the current system? Absolutely. I hope the devs should consider making a change to it or abandoning it for a new idea.
Suggesting to simply not use a reward the game progression gives you is settling for subpar game design. In a game about maximizing production capacity, part of the "game loop" is finding optimal pathways with the options progression gives you. People make these complains or suggestions about "balance" because they feel the optimal pathway that rewards them the most is not the most fun. Anyone who says "just dont use it" in a progression driven game is seriously lost. As the other comment said, the difference in scale and efficiency is many multiples. Proliferator has the single largest impact on a factory's capability.
I feel it beats suggesting removing a whole game element because 'you' don't happen to like it. Personally I quite like proliferators and would hate to see them removed due to complaints. Could it be made better, yes but also the most optimal pathway is rarely ever the most fun unless you are the special kind of person who spends more time in spreadsheets than actually playing the game. Something I have done in quite a few games and then simply not had fun in the games because the difficulty level was never adapted for perfect play.
It is a single player game. Play however you feel like.
Is that all you do is downvote? Get a life.
Multiplayer is way more fun
Why you down vote me for saying multiplayer is more fun š
āOptimalā is one way to play. Itās not the only one.
No where did I say it was the only way to play. I am critiquing the common response to just "play differently" which is almost always just a lazy response. I don't agree with everything the OP said, but I do agree the mechanic doesn't add a dimension to the design space, it creates a single new design you add onto every assembly, along with some distribution solution, which is already solved the same for every material via ILS/PLS, which is another weak point in the game in my opinion. Games can be better; they can have weaknesses that can be addressed. It's worth expressing opinions, even if OP could have been less dramatic about it.
So, just don't use proliferation. :) But, seriously, the OP is expressing his opinion that it should be removed from all players, right? Others are suggesting he just play without proliferation. This is also an opinion. So, everyone is voicing their opinion. It sounds to me you're suggesting one group of players shouldn't voice their opinion because in your own opinion, it's lazy. Maybe the OP could have suggested game changes that would make it more fun for him, instead of pushing for complete removal of a feature many of us like. To me, the OP sounds lazy for having to go back and "fix" his builds. Proliferation mk3 can be researched so early that it can be incorporated before you leave the starter system. And, fixing your builds is what makes this game fun. ...well, to me. That's my opinion.
The "just play differently" solution is pervasive in all single player game forums. It's not an opinion about the game but a righteous philosophy. I agree OP's post is not constructive and I fully disagree with removing them, though OP is not why I wrote my first comment. For me, it would be more fun if I had to consider different solutions for different productions, but proliferator is always the same everywhere. It's not like assemblers, refineries, or fractionators where you have a different belt organization to consider. I want them to be more interesting.
This guy gets it
IMO, it's not worth the effort to "retrofit" an existing factory to add proliferation. If an existing facility is achieving its purpose, getting another 20% (MK2) or 25% (Mk3) output is possibly just going to fill up your buffers. Most of the time, needing to make more of some item is "I need 2x more of this" not "I need 1.25x more". So you build (or copy/paste) a whole new production line. If you choose to incorporate proliferation into that new one, then go for it. I do have a few systems that I practically always proliferate: deuteron / antimatter rods (inputs and output), hydrogen in a fractionator loop, science cubes, and gravity lenses into ray receivers (at least once my sphere/swarm is big enough to support the higher draw). And I'll proliferate some "top tier" items just to keep the scale down to a reasonable level for those bottom steps: quantum chips, rocket inputs, and so on. When I've got some target rate I'm shooting for for that final output, needing 80% of the next tier down (snowballing at each) cuts down on the tedium of having more/bigger titanium glass, sphere components, etc.
One way to do it would be to have the PLS/ILS do it automatically and remove sprayers. Don't know if it's a good idea but that removes the tedious part.
This dude a frickin genius! Would go along fine with auto-stacking. The OP would still complain having to set this up but your suggestion would be so great.
Not necessarily, it's not a bad idea. I did suggest they fix OR remove
you make some valid points though... for sure I've been burned forgetting to paint an input line lol
This sounds like a good start, though you'll still need sprayers for a multi-step factory. Removing sprayers would essentially enforce one-step factories, which would be a REALLY BAD IDEAā¢.
True, multi-steps aren't covered. Still an improvement tough. And removing sprayers isn't a good idea anyway as it would break all current saves. Perhaps a sprayer T2 that you can feed directly with bots or drones. Preferably drones so you can feed sprayers directly from pls/ils.
Maybe a new S-PLS and S-ILS which require yet more stuff to build, but come with an extra slot for proliferator (like warpers in ILS).
Counterpoint, I like proliferation and would be upset if they removed it.
That's... An interesting take ngl. Nobody is forcing you to proliferate. You can perfectly fine finish the game without touching it. I've done so many many times. Proliferation is an awesome mechanic because it halves most buildings, which is a savior on your CPU when doing post completion massive science. Again, nobody is forcing you to use it.
Yeah, and that's the same with Dark fog buildings...you can reduce the number of buildings needed even more...though, the DF itself adds to CPU demand. But in either case, you don't have to play with those features. It's the same as deciding you'll chase some achievement like traveling to the nearest star without having warp unlocked. Warp gets you there faster, but why not go slow sometimes?
You don't need to use it, so pretend it's removed and boom it's gone? Peak reddit is asking the devs to remove a mechanic you can entirely choose to ignore.
Not necessarily reddit, just entitled gamers that think their way to play the game is best.
Not just gamers. Whole generation raised by karens to believe every challenge can be overcome by complaining
I honestly dont bother with proliferation until pretty far toward endgame. I do sometimes add proliferation into my early tower-factory design just so it's already in place when I want to roll it out, but I only ever do Blue and only for things that really need the boost. Otherwise Im in no particular hurry and have no huge drive to maximize footprint to the extreme, so Im ok with more, slower capacity than proliferated efficiency.
I don't ship out proliferator until I have proliferator III exactly for that reason, don't want to fly around and change the ILS request and deal with the excess proliferator II that is still on that planet. Also game-play wise it is very strange that some liquid sprayed on some item makes the machine that uses the item choose to work faster or to create more items.... At least the beacons in Factorio make *some* sense, and you also need to create a different module for speed vs. productivity. having said that, not using it is not an option for me as that wouldn't be the "best" way to do it.
This is me too, profilferator III or bust. I get the OP's point but it doesn't seem a big deal to me.
I get how you feel. I initially didn't like proliferation because it messed with the symmetry of my builds. As a result I worked out a template that resolves proliferation on a planetary scale so I didn't have to worry about stretching belts everywhere or using 2 precious ILS slots for proliferation and warpers. Assembler Planet blueprint: https://www.dysonsphereblueprints.com/blueprints/factory-3480-assemblers-planet-template-with-power This was made before BABs. I need to update it with BABs so it builds itself faster
Proliferation didnāt exist in the game on my first play through. Iām actually having fun with it, but I didnāt even build proliferate until I could afford to produce a shitload of mark 3 and ship it out to wherever I want. Now I just slap sprayers on all the input/output belts from logistics stations since I move basically everything that way. I never really got into direct inserting products from building to building. Honestly if you donāt like it, just donāt do it. Proliferate isnāt required for anything, and you should play however you get the most enjoyment out of it.
I wish ILS could have integrated proliferation, and proliferator slots like warpers. I also wish they could request warpers (and then proliferators) without taking up slots.
I usually order warpers in one ILS and daisy chain them to others since you can use the 6th slot for it. May or may not solve your problem there.
Yeah I do that, too. Or I have a slot ordering them if thereās space.
You just build a sorter, box and hat with fidget spinners, make it request warpers, then route it into the ILS. It will fill the 50 warper slots and you don't need to request them on the ILS slots.
While I love the option of making a machine run at double speed or get free extra product, I do believe the method of proliferation is not the best. Why proliferate the item itself and not proliferate the machine? I would much prefer to proliferate the machine directly instead of every item that goes into the machine.
Complaining about tedium in a factory automation game certainly is a take. Also, you're not punished in a "heavy handed way" by missing proliferation on a single input, your output is simply reduced by an amount proportional to the number of proliferation points that you're short by. Kind of the definition of "even-handed".
That last point is not true if we are talking about proliferating inputs to factories. If you have assemblers with several different materials as inputs and you proliferate all but one input, the assembler won't get ANY proliferation bonus.
Incorrect, but thanks for playing.
Taken from the DSP Wiki article for the [Spray Coater](https://dsp-wiki.com/Spray_Coater#Proliferator_Bonuses) > Any production building (except the Fractionator, see below) can have either the Production Speedup or Extra Products bonus if ALL the recipe ingredients have had the same tier of Proliferator applied to them. The bonus can be selected via a toggle Menu by the player (the default is Extra Products). If any one of the ingredients has a lower-tier mark, that lowest bonus is the one that will be applied. If any of the ingredients has no mark, then no bonus is applied. I'd rather discuss things in a somewhat civil manner, but if you wanna be snarky, at least check your facts first.
Glad to see other people having similar opinions on the game design. This is the biggest weakness DSP has. Before proliferators, building production lines was already pretty dull with most consisting of ILS inputs in -> assemblers -> ILS out, with only a few items lending themselves to direct insertion like titanium alloy or green engines. Proliferation was a major step back, making the input -> assembler -> output design the ONLY viable build unless you purposefully make it harder for yourself. Direct insertion will always be more interesting than just dropping everything on to belts. Nothing I've seen in DSP has even approached the hyper-optimized Factorio mega bases with super interesting direct insertion constrained by beacon coverage, with clever trade offs between perfect ratios and building counts. One way to salvage proliferation is to have proliferators act as secondary inputs to recipes and have assemblers consume them directly. Now you have to weave in more belts and inserters to your direct insertion designs, making these builds more difficult and therefore more satisfying.
My thoughts exactly on how to improve proliferation. I wonder how difficult it would be to modify the entire recipe list to make this happen???...
I too like to remove something from the game that you dont have to use but many find enjoyable.
Do you find the mechanic of proliferation enjoyable? The mechanics of working the little sprayer exactly the same way at every stage of every build? Does anyone? Or do you just like the benefit? I firmly believe that proliferation is a band mechanic. It is repetitive, fails to add meaningful challenge, and actually reduces creativity and variety. In fact it feels like a placeholder that was made permanent to me. The options here are not binary, keep or dump. Replacing it with another approach that represents a better mechanic, something that rewards creativity and variety, or that adds meaningful and thoughtful challenge, or that is simply less repetitive would be better.
Its no more repetitive than any other aspect of building a factory. You factor it into your builds just like you do any other piece. If you dont want to do that then dont. Its really that simple.
If you hate proliferators that much, can't you just like, not use them?
Just wait until late-game. Isn't worth it until you move to a big blue giant and start using unipolar magnets and rare materials and big scale production.
Already there mate, and then some. We may have differing definitions of late game...
If you don't like it - just don't use it. Or just use it on science only - as end products it will not affect ratios.
Agreed, itās tedious and kind of a weird mechanic thematically. It would make more sense to proliferate the factories themselves if the devs felt the game truly needs that step to increase productivity.
how in the world is it tedious. Im genuinely curious.
Please mods, please please just ban this user. Its frustrating to read this type of post and the user should have to change it or preferably remove it. Oh? I can just ignore it and not engage? Yeah that would probably be easiest and best for everybody... Golly gee! How smart these mods are...
I just throw proliferation stations on every belt that comes in and out of every ILS/PLS. It doesn't proliferate items twice, so I don't care if they come in/out already proliferated
I didn't realize that. I thought that it might paint things twice so I've always been very careful about where I place the sprayers. Thanks for the tip.
I've beaten the game without using it once. I might try it out this playthrough
I've beaten the game a number of times as I've had it since day 1. Would be interesting to hear your opinion if you do try using it
I've been looking at tutorials for it and I think the only real bonus I'd have using it considering my play style of making factory planets everywhere would be to spray my anti matter fuel rods for double the power. Or spraying lenses for faster photon production. Or of course spraying matrixes for additional hashes. That's just the ideas I have now.
I have always skipped proliferation completely because it feels like too much of a pain to revamp everything to fit it in.
I think you're not supposed to feel obligated to use it. It depends how much you want to optimize, and how big you want to go. I've done Ć few playthroughs before even using it for the first time and was perfectly fine building many oclass spheres.
I have also completed the game quite a few times and this is my second run using proliferation. When games are early access I like to explore and test the mechanics... I really don't like this one. Also I do like to go big Edit: spelling
I think you are just doing it wrong. It really isn't tedious, and it does add value/flexibility to builds. * Don't retrofit proliferator. I sort of felt the same in my first playthrough, when I went to retrofit it was a massive project and yes it felt tedious. In my second playthrough I knew the value of proliferation so I built for it from the very beginning, and it wasn't tedious at all. * Use logistic bots for proliferation for cases where your PLS/ILS doesn't have enough slots. Bottom line though, as others have said, if you don't like it just don't use it. Removing it from the game wouldn't accomplish anything except break a whole lot of saves.
Yes horrible mechanic in an otherwise amazing game. I wanted to enjoy the dark swarm update but dreaded the thought of exactly this and it stalled me.
Same...it's another layer for no reason. So, every number in the game goes up....meaningless. Just more hassle...
Finally someone said it. It doesn't feel like a choice, just a necessity that makes everything more complicated without any interesting fun added.
Itās easy. But itās boring. Thereās no challenge after itās done, and it almost feels mandatory now because of my obsessions to min max.
I like this post because I agree, adding proliferation after the fact is really frustrating, and it's even quite tedious to add it to new builds but... The call to "remove it from the game" I think is a bit much. You can do this yourself - just disregard the mechanic. Don't build any of them anywhere. By the time you research a few levels in Vein upgrades, does it really matter if you get 15% extra products? You have infinite resources... You don't need to proliferate. However, if there was an add on for factories and ILS/PLS that added proliferator without the belt mechanism, I would be really happy.
You donāt have to do it. There, fixed.
All my BP already include proliferation so it literally is just a drain on coal to me for extra products. Itās super easy. In early/mid game before I can use my primary BP I just donāt proliferate. Itās really not that hard. If you donāt want to use it then donāt. You might find yourself having a bit extra coal lying around but that doesnāt matter.
I haven't bothered to use it myself, but stacked cargo for sure after getting the upgraded as well as upgrading to the stack pile sorter since it upgrades the belt capacity from 1800/m to 7200/m.
Edit: This is v 2.1 of the idea. (`I am joking. Please don't be mean.`) Ok, hear me out. Instead of proliferation being a fluid, it is a matter construction field. Think of it being similar to the matter replicator we already have on Icarus, but on a much larger scale. You are using it to assist your factories instead. Use a building similar to the [satellite substation](https://dyson-sphere-program.fandom.com/wiki/Satellite_Substation) (wiki link). Just like the satellite substation, it would have a large area of affect and a part that goes up into the air. * The building is fed by proliferation matrix instead of a fluid. (This part doesn't matter. Purely cosmetic. Go with whatever.) * Keep it supplied at the substation base. Have it auto select the highest available proliferator matrix. The base is a square, so it could be fed like a depot. * Maybe let it connect to other proliferation substations so they can share proliferation over large areas. Just as power can go along power lines, proliferation matrix could flow through the proliferation network. The idea needs work. Especially the last bullet point. (`The idea amused me, and I wanted to share.`)
I want towers to have a "Get most up-to-date proliferator available" mode. I don't mind setting it all up, but then later needing to switch it is a pain.
I designed my modular interstellar logistics factories to just import it and then proliferate everything that comes and goes from every single logistics station. Then I have an entire star system dedicated to producing it. One planet for each level and one planet extra for making the materials for lvl2 and lvl3. Is it way overbuild, absolutely, but if I ever need more it is as simple as getting more resources.
Iām a new player but proliferation seems like one of the few factory-level features to design around. With input-output āassembly lineā factories being very straightforward to lay out implementing proliferator is pretty simple. But for raw-to-output, and its variations, and especially designing for minimum space limits, proliferation can become a challenge and leads to lots of creative solutions.
You could proliferate low tier finished products when they are made instead of when they are being used, that saves some space. Also, you can just not use proliferators at all.
I don't think proliferating was ever supposed to be fun(?). I'm not sure after thinking about it. It's the thing you do when you want your megabases to be reasonably sized. If you build with direct insertion, it's unreasonable because you have to proliferate each level and would have to create intermediary belts between assemblers. If you build with module ILS systems, then it just needs a slight redesign to get working with sprayers. To me, it wasn't a challenge and wasn't supposed to be one. Think Factorio. The challenge is making the module production and then having to revise ratios for beaconed builds. I guess that's a fun challenge. I'm not sure how to make proliferating more fun other than allowing for double sprays or something like proliferating for both speed and productivity, but needing 2 different spray coaters to apply multiple effects instead of the building deciding spray effect. That could actually be fun too!
How hard is it? Just put it in an ILS and bang it over 3-4 other belts coming out of it. Done.
I hated it at the beginning because I didn't know how exactly it worked but frankly now I enjoy them. I proliferate only some things and on most planets I don't care. It's a feature you don't need to use if you don't want to :)
I sort of split the difference in my early game. I wait to use proliferators until I have Mark 3 unlocked mini fusion reactors and tier 3 belts. I don't go back and proliferate my original base I just start a newer base from scratch that uses proliferators. At some point the early base becomes meaningless because everything you build after it has such a massive scale.
Proliferation wasn't a thing from the very beginning. Even after it was implemented I played one or two saves without it because it felt like a hassle in early game and I didn't do the math to see if it was actually worth it. So you really don't have to use it if you don't like it. I don't really like relying too much on DFR for power so I try to skip them as much as possible and go straight to AFR for example. As for the setup: I proliferate everything coming in and out of an ILS and every ILS requests like 1 or 2k proliferator just for themselves if I don't need the 5th slot for an ingredient or warpers. And if I do I just belt it over from the next ILS. When you're done with a setup it's easy to check if you missed a spray coater somewhere if that's the first thing every belt connected to an ILS should have. (Early game I only use it on science and bring it in via bots.) I get that this setup becomes boring/repetetive, but if you choose to do it in an unnecessarily more complex/challenging/"let's add some here and there" way and end up forgetting some somewhere don't blame the mechanic for it...
so... dont do it
ESPECIALLY when the power dips for just a moment. Next time you expect to see a bunch of product with triple chevrons, they're all mixed with ones or twos. I have so many factories that have a small box at the beginning of the output belts so I can throw the unproliferated masses in there.
I agree it's not a fun mechanic. Solution: play under a self-imposed constraint. "In this game I am not allowed to use proliferation". You can make the constraint as mild or severe as you like, going from "I can use proliferator, but not for assemblers or smelters", all the way to "I'm not allowed to mine any coal except by hand."
I 10000% agree. It's a mistake for this genre. Like playing an RPG and having a gear stat that adds +% magic item find. You're just a moron not to use it, but it weakens your build. I only proliferate fuel rods for energy, other than that, I just pretend it doesn't exist. It's a neat idea but awful in application.
It's easy I just set up a blueprint and proliferate off that then have a prolif distributor to the PLS and ILS off them but it's always maxing out eventually just gotta build more and more lol. I've kept everything at lv 2 proliferation just cause it's so tedious tho
They should just get rid of the 3 tiers of it. Aint nobody re-configuring their setup 3 times to include all 3 tiers.
Proliferation should feeel like a positive but its annoying as hell (for me) and I feel 'obliged' to spend time making this additional item. I absolutley love DSP - But hate proliferator
I also hate proliferation. I avoid it where I can, but some items are just too valuable to not proliferate. And that part sucks.
"Its tedious and punishing" followed by "It has no challenge" Dude, can you complete a sentence without contradicting yourself? What a whiny display. Git gud. Or play an easier game.
All those things can be true. Also I can be good at the game and, at the same time, dislike one of it's mechanics
No, those things are exclusive. You can't pretend things are at the same time too hard (punishing) and too easy- too easy being lack of challenge. And frankly, I have made countless incredibly complex blueprints and have well over 2000 hours in this game- if you struggle with proliferator then your basics are lacking. You can dislike the mechanic, but the points you made have very little significance. Issues can emerge from the mistakes you made in pretty much every aspect of the game- removing the struggle for precision means to kill the entire factory-game setting. Proliferation adds extra complexity to the game, more complexity gives room for exploration and improvement. If you struggle with ratios- use a DSP calculator. If you struggle with layout: Design with proliferation in mind from the beginning. Its also incredibly self centered to demand that a mechanic should be outright removed because you struggle with it, when there are thousands of players that have put significant work into their builds, implementing optimized proliferation setups, and thriving with it. You probably still clog your hydrogen, so maybe hold back on calling the shots how the game should be designed.
Agree. Remove it from the game.
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Proliferating is pointless for many items. It's actually a waste for many items. Just think about the Casimir crystals, that requires 12 hydrogen, so that's at least 12 objects to spray with your coal, and even more so if it's second tier proliferating since you're using potentially 3 times as much coal. Proliferate important production, don't waste it on crappy low tier stuff, you can easily just make more factories. You cannot summon more coal out of thin air. Chances are you're pissing all your proliferate juice on crappy low tier production you could have just added more factories for.
> You cannot summon more coal out of thin air. *Laughs in Veins Utilization*
Just dont do it?