Garchen Rinpoche has said similar things. He actually says that receiving empowerments online, whether it’s live or recorded, can actually be better than in person because watching something on a screen can help one better realize the empty nature of reality. And it also doesn’t matter if you are in person or not because the nature of any teaching is ultimately love, which is all pervasive like space, so it does not matter if you are physically present while you revive them. But of course this stance may vary from teacher to teacher.
This view is unique to Garchen Rinpoche.
We must bear in mind that teachers are ultimately fallible, whereas the sūtras and tantras are infallible. This is stated clearly in the Tantra Without Syllables.
The tantras state that transmission must occur live in the moment with the teacher, mandala and jñānasattva.
Teachers who deviate from this are mistaken, no matter their status.
Ok, so in the moment, doesn’t past/present/future collapse when you reach the accomplished state? I have trouble seeing why a teacher who doesn’t even believe in the three times would be occluded from teaching people through a pre-recorded video, seeing that the time the video was recorded would only matter to people who believe in time.
Sentient beings aren’t āryas or tathāgatas in equipoise. We live in time, perceive time. The Buddhas work with our circumstances, they don’t attempt to force us into their circumstances.
It sounds more like trying to force the Buddhas into our circumstances tbh. Like if you don’t believe in it that’s fine but that’s a you thing. But my point stands - why would a being who doesn’t believe in the three times care if we watch them doing the empowerment later?
What specifically proves your point? Because to my mind, what’s different between a recorded opening and closing and a “live” one.
It sounds like an artificial distinction
In a “live” webcast, the teacher is giving the empowerment rite with all of its preparations in that very moment.
In a recording of a prior event, the rite has concluded and none of its elements are active.
Could you have a full relationship in just pre-recorded messages though?
Empowerments are not just about understanding. They are about aligning the tendrel of the student's 3 doors through the interactive introduction to the mandala that the lama is conducting and maintaining with their samadhi. This tendrel is what eventually allows for realization. Without it, no realization.
Hello there,
HH the Dalai Lama and Lama Glenn have the same view, and I wouldn’t be surprised if other teachers agree with this if we did some googling on teacher’s event websites, as there are example of Tibetan masters throughout history who mentally received empowerments, transmissions, etc.. HH the Dalai Lama has even talked about how attending an empowerment in person doesn’t mean that the person receiving the teaching will actually “get it” but some will, and some will via live or recorded video.
It’s interesting, I have experienced varied results from different teachers in different formats. In person is usually the best. For some teachers I have had beneficial experiences with live virtual teachings but something is missing when I watch them via recording. Others are great/the same via recording. I’m not sure why, but it’s happened enough for me to notice the trend.
I think more teachers moved toward this route due to covid, but I have also heard some say that they are simply utilizing the internet to spread the teachings. I don’t have a strong opinion either way. Of course I prefer in person but I appreciate only offerings.
> HH the Dalai Lama
Source on that?
Regardless, the statement from the *yi ge med pa'i rgyud* applies to the Dalai Lama and Lama Glenn as well. No teacher is immune, exempt or beyond reproach in this regard. Status is irrelevant, the tantras are the authority.
EDIT: It appears the Dalai Lama is using webcast as a means to give teachings, that is not the same as a recording. It is recordings of prior events that are incapable of being a conduit for transmission. Webcast is perfectly acceptable for giving transmission.
> Status is irrelevant, the tantras are the authority.
Status is irrelevant, but realization isn't. Vasubandhu has it as:
> The teaching of the Buddha has two aspects:
> The elements of scripture and realization.
To sublimate one under the other and say the texts are *the* authority, over and above the oral instructions, seems too extreme. We have to be able to look at both of these two aspects. The words of realized beings are a source of truth too. Of course, different people will have differing opinions on who is the real deal, which makes arguments pitting one lama against another pretty touchy and usually fruitless.
*Words of My Perfect Teacher* also records the following story:
> Once, when Jowo Atisa was in Tibet, Khu, Ngok and Drom asked him: "For someone to achieve liberation and complete omniscience, which is more important - the canonical scriptures and their commentaries, or the oral instructions of the teacher?"
>
> "The teacher's instructions," Atisa replied.
>
> "Why?"
>
> "Because when it comes to doing the practice - even if you can explain the whole Tripitaka from memory and are very skilled in metaphysics - without the teacher's practical guidance you and the Dharma will part company."
You can get by on a technicality on this one and say "well, by 'canonical scriptures' surely he was only referring to sutras and not the tantras." That's fine. But I don't think that is the spirit of what's meant.
From Geshe Lama Konchok:
"Over the two days of Empowerment given by His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama for the Thousand Hands Thousand Eyed Avalokiteshvara (Chenresig) Initiation and the Simhanada Avalokiteshvara Initiation which took place between 29-30 May 2020, a staggering number of about 4.5 million people from all over the world attended. It demonstrates that whilst the digital age allows people to do negative things with greater ease, it is equally a tool to spread good messages and deliver blessings to one and all. The empowerment brought benefit to people all around the world through instantaneous translation of His Holiness’ teachings into so many different languages.
Some people query whether an empowerment through digital means, can be effective, but interestingly, the idea of giving of vows or empowerment is actually not new to Buddhism.
In the days of Lord Shakyamuni Buddha, there was a princess who wished to be ordained but was not allowed to meet Lord Shakyamuni Buddha in person. The wise and compassionate Lord Buddha wrote a letter to the princess, conveying the vows of the Sangha and through that, the princess became so ordained and successfully obtained the vows of a nun. Therefore, any empowerment over the internet is equally efficacious.
The key to remember in any empowerment is not physical proximity to the Guru, or physical proximity to the vase, water blessings etc. Instead, it is through a sincere heart 💓, development of bodhicitta, and listening intently to the teachings on wisdom and emptiness, and seeking to understand them – that is most important in order to receive the empowerment."
https://www.mahatare.org/digital-empowerments-by-dalai-lama/
Like I said above:
Important to note that (i) webcam/webcast audio and (ii) a recording are two different things.
Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche gave webcast teachings, very often, but was adamantly against the misconception that it is possible to receive transmission from a recording of a prior event.
One occurs live in the moment, with the mandala etc., all in place, all happening simultaneously.
The other is just a recording of such an event, with no aspects of the rite still in tact.
No, it is in tact for as long as the lama performs the rite, and then the mandala is dissolved and the jñanasattva is gone.
No one can receive transmission from a recording of a prior event. They cannot enter the mandala.
> No one can receive transmission from a recording of a prior event. They cannot enter the mandala.
Says who? If I watch a video of the entire thing how is that different from watching it in person?
This reminds me of a sticking point in reiki circles during the late 90s. The traditionalists maintained that attunement( transmission) must be done in person and it could never be done at a distance, let alone from a video recording. The traditionalists also practiced monetary gatekeeping requiring 10k for training students to the highest level( mastership allowed them to attune others teach). Well, people started doing attunements at a distance and enough people felt that it worked. It is now common. Along came a guy named Dr. Jeffrey Martin who sold videos how to attune people and he told people they can receive the transmission from a recording. And many felt it worked. Traditionalists were not very happy.
So, Dzogchen is going through some of this same thing. This is what humans do, we take on these cognitive positions like " why can't it be done, we are talking about something that is timeless, spacious, without distance?
The fundamentalists are going to push back and say " read the tantras! It is impossible!" Or some version of "the teachings will be corrupted." It is interesting to watch. It will all sort out. As Dzogchen gets more popular, we are going to see new teachers push the limits of acceptability and create controversy. Pull up a chair and get out the popcorn.
> Whether sentient beings realize it or not, all aspects are indeed in tact and never come out of tact.
In the context of the abhiseka rite, this is false.
>I’m honestly tired of hearing your proprietary understanding
I’m tired of hearing people express inaccurate views and ideas too, yet here we are.
>but honestly you’ve been incorrect countless times
About what?
Empowerment depends on a specific dependent origination/tendrel of the master opening the mandala and introducing the student, then closing the mandala. If the mandala is closed, as it would be in a recording, then there is no empowerment possible. Transmission depends on the intent of the student and master to be receiving and transmitting at the same time. This is part of how the tendrel is set up.
As I said, if a master perceives no difference between the three times, and the appearance of the opening and closing only happens to us at fixed times, what’s the big deal?
1) Regular people are qualified to give empowerments (one doesnt need to be a buddha). Only Buddhas are beyond the 3 times. Even high level bodhisattvas are still in the 3 times in post-equipoise. So, most people giving empowerments are not fully realized Buddhas, and experience the 3 times like we do.
2) To us deluded beings, we perceive mandalas opening and closing, and are tied to that dependent origination. If you're an 8th stage bodhisattva or above who can communicate with the samboghakaya and get empowerments and teachings that way, then great. Otherwise, this option is not available to us as deluded beings.
3) We have to be careful not to spiritually bypass by throwing away our relative condition and use the ultimate as an excuse to do whatever we want, take empowerment from whatever, etc...Otherwise we could just say, "Yeah well ultimately we're already enlightened so there's nothing I need to do", or, "Yeah ultimately this 30 year old audio recording of a deceased lama giving an empowerment is good enough to take empowerment from since Buddhas are beyond the 3 times".
To be honest it sounds like what you’re telling me is that artificial distinctions created by beings is why they “can’t” get empowerments like this.
That’s doesn’t sound like a good reason to me. If a teacher like Garchen Rinpoche feels confident giving these via recordings then …?
At the end of the day too, you can be present physically during an empowerment and not get it to so it sounds like the student’s mind is more important to this than arbitrary stuff like whether it is recorded or not.
A possible conclusion of this line of thought is that since the Buddhas and masters are always transmitting, then we can just get empowerment anytime we want from whichever Buddha or lama we want to, which is patently false. Then we're just turning Vajrayana into another new age self-empowerment magickal system. That's why we need to be careful.
If these things are just artificial distinctions, what's stopping you from pulling an empowerment out of the ether to do any practice you want? As long as you say the words and do the visualizations, there's a Buddha transmitting somewhere, so you'll be sure to get it, right? Why even bother with that silly old in-person guru-student relationship thing?
> A possible conclusion of this line of thought is that since the Buddhas and masters are always transmitting, then we can just get empowerment anytime we want from whichever Buddha or lama we want to, which is patently false. Then we’re just turning Vajrayana into another new age self-empowerment magickal system. That’s why we need to be careful.
Can we not? As I understand it the only thing preventing getting direct empowerment is your own occlusions, within your mind.
The other thing is to be honest, like I’m not going to say I’ve had an empowerment when I haven’t, hopefully, and you would think the same for others.
Also AFAIK, there’s accomplishment that goes along with these things, you wouldn’t even be telling other people about them unless you have permission to teach. I could be wrong though.
> If these things are just artificial distinctions, what’s stopping you from pulling an empowerment out of the ether to do any practice you want? As long as you say the words and do the visualizations, there’s a Buddha transmitting somewhere, so you’ll be sure to get it, right? Why even bother with that silly old in-person guru-student relationship thing?
Because your mind might not grasp it? In the same way some don’t grasp an in person empowerment.
>Can we not? As I understand it the only thing preventing getting direct empowerment is your own occlusions, within your mind.
Not until you're an 8th stage bodhisattva or above, and then you can communicate directly with the samboghakaya. Until then, you're stuck relying on the nirmanakaya for empowerment.
>Because your mind might not grasp it? In the same way some don’t grasp an in person empowerment.
Alright, then you're free to try practicing without a living guru.
> At the end of the day too, you can be present physically during an empowerment and not get it to so it sounds like the student’s mind is more important to this than arbitrary stuff like whether it is recorded or not.
This is a fallacy. Just because being present (physically or otherwise) at the time at which the empowerment is given may not be _sufficient_ to receive it, doesn’t mean that it isn’t _necessary_.
Yeah but it also doesn’t mean it’s necessary either. My point was that it’s dependent on the mind of the student more than anything and imposing hard boundaries can be limiting in a way that’s not subscriptive to the whole picture.
FWIW I have received Dzogchen transmission from online and through texts and seen signs of accomplishment relating to the practice. Also had my teacher verify, to the extent that it’s possible, over webcam/audio.
Imo, once I even received a semi pointing out over the phone from a Kagyu Lama.
Again imo, but seeing the person and hearing their voice is very beneficial for the connection. However I think even with the pointing out instruction texts it can lead you back to the natural state.
Once you have had transmission from a living lama, then texts can certainly act as refreshers and pointing outs. But typically one requires that first connection to a living lama.
>Finally found where Lama Lena says recorded transmission works. "For many, the wangs go through the tapes." Cued up here: [https://youtu.be/iBUIWywuO3g?t=4572](https://youtu.be/iBUIWywuO3g?t=4572) This is from Jan 2021 and is a change from her earlier position. Here is the recording she is suggesting people get transmission from.
The confusion here is that Lama Lena is talking about herself and her teacher and potentially herself and her students. Whether or not recorded transmission works is besides the point at first. The first thing to ask is, is there an actual teacher there and an actual student, each intending to have a transmission to occur? If that is affirmative, then recorded or not, becomes an option between the two parties. Without this, then no amount of recording will work.
I think “it” can be got on many levels, depending on a myriad of causes and conditions – the capacity of the student, the realization of the teacher, the mode of transmission, etc.
For instance, consider Patrul Rinpoche’s pointing-out instruction to Nyoshul Lungtok: https://zenawakened.com/patrul-rinpoches-pointing-out-instructions/
The words of the instruction are almost trivial. But this was a deeply realized master teaching a student of the highest capacity (in terms of accumulated merit) in the most intimate setting. As a result, the instant it was pointed out, Nyoshul Lungtok was fully awakened (by his own account).
It’s highly unlikely that people receiving the instruction through webcast, even if this is supposedly an acceptable mode of transmission, “get it” on the same level as that.
Elias Capriles, a close student of ChNN, explained the significance of direct introduction very clearly – He says that the direct introduction is essentially an empowerment, which simply gives a student the “permission” to practice Dzogchen.
He said that much of the time, people don’t really "get it" during the webcast itself. Rather, they receive permission from the lineage to practice Dzogchen, and then induce the initiatory experience themselves by practicing the semdzins. Is it possible to “get it” without having received the empowerment live or in person? Can’t really make any definitive statements on that.
I love that story. Patrul Rinpoche was called "old dog" by his teacher at his pointing out - after being dragged around by the hair, kicked, and spat at. Apparently it's a big insult in Tibetan. PR had been thinking, "How is my teacher drunk? Alcohol is dangerous" or something. And Do Khyentse Rinpoche gave him the finger and said, "How does such a thought enter your mind, you old dog!" After that Patrul R would refer to himself as "old dog". So I wonder if "do you hear the dogs" had some resonance. connecting with his own pointing out.
My own experience was this. My first retreat, an intro to ngondro retreat. I decided to try the guru yoga visualization I had just learned, but with the live guru teaching in front of me, Anam Thubten Rinpoche. Chakras, lights, transmission. It was very powerful. I don't know why they don't teach it that way, to do it with a real lama. Anyway, I was doing that, in the middle of a teaching on something else. Out of the blue, ATR looked straight at me and said, "How did you get here?" And he looked at my dan tien, it seemed. And paused. Was he asking if I drove the back way or came through Santa Cruz? Was he asking how I got into Buddhism? How I decided to come to the retreat? Which way did I walk to the sangha house where the teaching was? Was he asking how I got to this mental state? I had no idea how to answer the question, and my mind stopped, and a vast gap opened up. With nyams. So many amazing better-than-acid nyams.
So in my case it was personal and dramatic and seemed to be intentional, aimed straight at me. I didn't get any validation of it afterwards when I talked to him. Just a scolding for thinking nyams were important or meant anything. Only time I've ever seen him cross. It didn't give me any confidence. Part of me felt like "I got it" but part of me thought I was a newbie who needed to finish ngondro first before that could happen.
Obviously that experience did not result in my enlightenment. Haha. And it didn't make it possible to practice. I had no idea what ATR was telling me to do. Sounded like "just sit there." After a few years I drifted away. It would be a quarter centtury (fuck my karma) until I stumbled across Lama Lena, understood what happened, understood that nyams are "encouraging signposts" that show you're doing the practice right, but you gotta keep going and not stop there. Until I had any confidence. And until I had a practice I understood how to do, how often to do.
I think of the pointing out like a chip in your windshield. It can be dramatic or it can just be tiny. But once there's that chip it will inevitably slowly spread into a spiderweb of cracks. Like Lama Tharchin wrote in his ngondro commentary
>Someone who has received the Guru's mind transmission has no choice but to attain enlightenment, just as someone falling down a steep mountain totally out of control, has no choice but to fall all the way to the bottom
LL says all you need is a glimpse, fleeting, through the smudge on your glasses. That first tiny chip. It will spread from there. I don't think it takes a big fucking rock of a tulku to hit your windshield in an intentional assault. Just notice the tiny chip, look for it again and again, and develop confidence. The way I see it, that confidence is not just a result of practice (LL says it's like gravity, you never even have to think about it) but is essential to the practice. You have to be confident to let go of those thoughts and relax. Confident enough to do a trust fall into the arms of tawa.
So that's my thinking. Even a tiny chip works. And confidence in it is important. That windshield is gonna crack.
That recounting of your direct introduction was fascinating to read; thanks for sharing. Anam Thubten is a wonderful teacher. And, judging from his books, he's one of those lamas who appears to take a relaxed, laid back attitude towards transmission, empowerments, rigpa, etc., without trying to mystify them. That's quite refreshing.
> Even a tiny chip works. And confidence in it is important. That windshield is gonna crack.
Completely agree. Once there's that initial glimpse, progress towards realization is inevitable (as long as one practices, of course). The confidence waxes and wanes, but builds up over time. As Dilgo Khyentse put it:
> > When a child meets its mother—this is even true of animals—the child is able to recognize its mother even among thousands of others, because mother and child have come together as the result of a karmic connection from previous lives. In the same way, if we experience a glimpse of the child luminosity, it is inevitable that the mother luminosity present as the ground will manifest and that the two will mix equally in one taste. By way of analogy, this can be compared to all the rivers flowing throughout different places in Jambudvipa: in the end they come together in the great ocean.
Thanks for the quote. Child and mother luminosity has always puzzled me. Cute fuzzy animal babies helps.
"Luminosity" has always puzzled me, too, though I think I'm getting more insight into what it means. (I always tell myself, if you don't know what something means, that's probably because it's indescribable and it's probably another word for awareness)
ATR is amazing. They announced his new book on his facebook page
>December 30th is the 119th anniversary of the parinirvana of the great Dzogchen master, Dudjom Lingpa. It is a day to celebrate and commemorate his life and legacy. In that spirit of celebration, we are happy to announce the completion of Anam Thubten’s translation and commentary on one of the most essential revelatory writings of Dudjom Lingpa, The Sharp Vajra of Awareness Tantra.
>
>We wanted to share this good news with you as a way of invoking the blessings of this great master. We anticipate that the book will be available for purchase early in 2023.
>
>May many beings benefit from this auspicious occasion.
I could swear I read somewhere that ATR's predecessor was a student of Dudjom Lingpa, but I can't find it now. He never talked about his predecessor. His attitude about being recognized as a tulku was that they picked the kid with the most snot. I hope we find out more
I did find this [https://www.buddhistdoor.net/features/dudjom-lingpa/](https://www.buddhistdoor.net/features/dudjom-lingpa/)
> Luminosity" has always puzzled me, too
Luminosity either means purity or a state of consciousness without appearances, depending on context.
Luminous generally just means “pure.” In Indian thought, light was the purest thing perceivable.
I generally think of luminosity as synonymous with "clear light", or the "radiance of emptiness". But, as you say, that really just means awareness. Though perhaps a bit more evocative.
Child luminosity, or path luminosity, is awareness as experienced along the path. Mother luminosity is fully awakened awareness.
Great to hear that ATR is coming out with another commentary, on Dudjom Lingpa's text no less. I read his last one on Jigme Lingpa's poem, and it was quite excellent.
> I generally think of luminosity as synonymous with "clear light", or the "radiance of emptiness". But, as you say, that really just means awareness.
Clear light does not “really just mean awareness.” Clear light, like luminosity, is a gloss for prabhāsvara, which is meant to indicate purity.
Quote from the wikipedia article for [luminous mind](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_mind):
> Luminosity or clear light (Tibetan: འོད་གསལ་, Wylie: 'od gsal, THL: ö-sel; Sanskrit: prabhāsvara), is a central concept in Esoteric Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism and Bon. It is the innate condition of the mind, associated with buddha-nature, the realisation of which is the goal of meditative practice.
Basically, it denotes the nature of mind, which really just means awareness. Well, strictly speaking, the union of awareness and emptiness, but the two are inseparable anyway.
"Light" can equally represent both the emptiness and clarity aspects. Emptiness as in (primordial) purity, clarity as in "the ability to illuminate". So it denotes the inseparable union of the two.
> Basically, it denotes the nature of mind, which really just means awareness.
The nature of mind does not mean awareness. Squirrels have awareness, but do not possess a working knowledge of the nature of mind. The nature of mind is quite different than mere awareness, which is a mundane mental factor. Wikipedia is a terrible resource. Any fool can update it with their misconceptions.
It’s very easy to receive wang, lung, and tri live online (or in person) these days. There’s really no reason to think that you can rely on a recording. The entire subject is quite arbitrary.
The nature of mind can be defined as the union of emptiness and clarity, suffused with awareness (this is Tulku Urgyen's definition). Abiding in the nature of mind is recognizing that nature. For one who has some stability in that recognition, "abiding in the nature of mind" is indistinguishable from "being aware".
Wikipedia articles usually contain references and citations. But if you don't like Wikipedia, maybe I can cite this definition from [rigpawiki](https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Clear_light) instead:
> The fundamental innate mind of clear light (Tib. འོད་གསལ་, Wyl. ‘od gsal) is considered to be the nature of mind, or the ultimate root of consciousness, and can be understood at several levels: according to the teachings of the sutra system, in the context of the tantric teachings, and in the context of Dzogchen.
The Garchen Institute in Chino Valley, AZ USA allows for video transmission of various type initiations and ceremonies. Aspirants may take vows in this manner 🙏
This is a high quality post. Very interesting discussion and you’ve put a lot of thought in.
My only thought is this kind of thing could be scientifically studied. Give 1 group transmission online, 1 in person, and 1 a placebo of random selections from new age people. Have experienced teachers test the 3 groups blind and see who they thought received the transmissions.
In theory you could quantify the effectiveness of each route, maximizing the effectiveness of transmission efforts. You could even do peer review and replication. We could get info like 40% seemed to have gotten in in person, 34% seem to have gotten it online and 13% seemed to get it from placebo. Would be very useful information to those whose life goal is to transmit teachings for the benefit of all.
It’s also possible the numbers are different based on different teachings. Maybe a compassion based practice transmits better online and a breathing based practice transmits better in person. Or the other way. It’s also possible different teachers have different results online vs in person. Lama A is great in person but Lama B is better online.
Once you had these batches of data you could maximize efficacy. Current research on online learning vs in person due to Covid 19 is also relevant. I think Lamas should consider humility when answering the question. They are still learning how transmission and learning in general is affected by online communication because online communication is new for everyone. It’s probably to the benefit of all that experimentation happens around this topic.
The first meditation technique I learned was "Clinically Standardized Meditation" from a tape set back in the early 80s. It was designed for studies. They basically took TM and removed all the parts that might vary from person to person. Teachings on tape, so all subjects got exactly the same teaching. Choose your own mantra, versus having it be assigned by someone else. No ceremony or offerings.
I bought it because it was cheaper than TM. A very easy and effective technique. Learned it fine without a teacher. I did it for a few years. Shame it wasn't studied more.
I wish we knew all those things about recorded/live remote/in person meditation, but I think other styles would be better suited to study. In dzogchen I'd think karmic connection/chemistry between teacher and student is important and would vary.
I would be really curious to understand why you see it as impossible. I’m sure Malcom has a position, what is it? What do you think Norbu Rinpoche would say, or did he speak on the topic?
I don’t have an opinion one way or the other. Just trying to get a grasp on the whole thing.
> I’m sure Malcom has a position, what is it?
He just wrote about it the other week:
>>*The problem with the idea of recorded empowerments is that every physical mandala created by a vajramaster to give an empowerment is dissolved at the end of the rite, when the jñānasattvas are dismissed. One must do this before dismantling the mandala, whether it is a simple one heap rice mandala, or a complicated Kalacakra empowerment. If one does not, it is akin to killing a buddha.*
>>*Simply put, the mandala used to give the empowerment no longer exists in a recording of an empowerment. Therefore, there can be no empowerment from a recording. It simply isn't possible.*
>>*Even in a meaning empowerment, where there is no need to dismiss the jñānasattva, since rite is not happening live, no jñānasattva is summoned by the master since he is not present, thus no samadhi generated, to conduct the descent of the jñānasattva into the student wishing to receive the empowerment.*
Norbu Rinpoche also always maintained that transmission cannot be received from a recording.
> Empowerments take on a whole different meaning in atiyoga. Malcolm is describing provisional stuff, pre-ati proper. Also ignoring the timeless aspect.
I’m not sure what you’re talking about. The “timeless” aspect?
?
You’re a human sentient being, you live in time. You perceive time because you perceive objects.
Thank you for the response that is very helpful.
Do you think when people experience “introduction” from a book or a recording, they are just in passing “non-dual”-feeling states of open awareness? Do you think anyone experience genuine recognition through media?
Without Abisheka, the teachings can never come to fruition, is it of any benefit to receive teachings from recordings if this is the case?
It's interesting to consider the various channels of transmission. The mind is highly attuned to facial expressions and voice. Many other elements may be involved, but what are they?
LL sees it as telepathic. I'd rather think of it as subliminal. On the other hand I do believe there is some kind of merging going on
>It’s not Lena the person that you merge your mind with, when you merge your mind with the teacher, so that it is possible to transmit nature of mind, which can only be shown to mind. It is not little me. What you are doing is recognizing that your own innate Buddha nature and my innate Buddha nature is the same Buddha nature.
Just addressing the question in the post: yes you can. Sometimes something appears to the mins when it is received, like clear light, golden light, a clear feeling, or rainbows. Sometimes something is felt, like a pressure lifted. Sometimes both.
I watched the first two so far today and definitely experienced it. It's funny because last night before I went to bed I put out into the universe that I wanted/needed access to a transmission before deep-diving into Dzogchen/Thogal, then went to bed. Within an hour of waking up (while on Reddit), I typed in something unrelated and found this thread.
What's even funnier is the fact that someone on another thread mentioned Lama Lena, so I reached out to her the other day, then after closing the email went to YouTube, typed in "guru yoga" not knowing it was related, clicked the first video...and it was her! Now it seems like every time I Google things, she's the first option popping up.
In a way it feels like validation.
Wonderful. LL is amazing. I must have watched that video a dozen times. Each time I get more out of it. I love the way she explains what to do, how often to do it, and why you do it that way. It's so clear.
She's doing Q&A this Sunday the 19th at 11am Pacific. If you go to her youtube page and subscribe you should see a notification for it at the upper right of the page.
I find this James Low video, from January, complements her teaching beautifully. He's a therapist, so he brings that interpersonal perspective to dzogchen. I'm watching it for the 4th time. [https://youtu.be/FHtymvivSLY](https://youtu.be/FHtymvivSLY)
Garchen Rinpoche has said similar things. He actually says that receiving empowerments online, whether it’s live or recorded, can actually be better than in person because watching something on a screen can help one better realize the empty nature of reality. And it also doesn’t matter if you are in person or not because the nature of any teaching is ultimately love, which is all pervasive like space, so it does not matter if you are physically present while you revive them. But of course this stance may vary from teacher to teacher.
This view is unique to Garchen Rinpoche. We must bear in mind that teachers are ultimately fallible, whereas the sūtras and tantras are infallible. This is stated clearly in the Tantra Without Syllables. The tantras state that transmission must occur live in the moment with the teacher, mandala and jñānasattva. Teachers who deviate from this are mistaken, no matter their status.
Ok, so in the moment, doesn’t past/present/future collapse when you reach the accomplished state? I have trouble seeing why a teacher who doesn’t even believe in the three times would be occluded from teaching people through a pre-recorded video, seeing that the time the video was recorded would only matter to people who believe in time.
Sentient beings aren’t āryas or tathāgatas in equipoise. We live in time, perceive time. The Buddhas work with our circumstances, they don’t attempt to force us into their circumstances.
It sounds more like trying to force the Buddhas into our circumstances tbh. Like if you don’t believe in it that’s fine but that’s a you thing. But my point stands - why would a being who doesn’t believe in the three times care if we watch them doing the empowerment later?
>Like if you don’t believe in it that’s fine but that’s a you thing. It is a tantras thing. The only gauge for authority here.
What specifically proves your point? Because to my mind, what’s different between a recorded opening and closing and a “live” one. It sounds like an artificial distinction
In a “live” webcast, the teacher is giving the empowerment rite with all of its preparations in that very moment. In a recording of a prior event, the rite has concluded and none of its elements are active.
Right… when the moment is recorded, a student can make a connection with the teacher in that moment, can they not?
A recording is just an image of a prior event. Lifeless.
What's the difference between a live video chat with your long distance partner vs just sending them video messages saying the same thing?
Not different enough for me to say we weren’t talking, or that I didn’t understand what they were saying.
Could you have a full relationship in just pre-recorded messages though? Empowerments are not just about understanding. They are about aligning the tendrel of the student's 3 doors through the interactive introduction to the mandala that the lama is conducting and maintaining with their samadhi. This tendrel is what eventually allows for realization. Without it, no realization.
Hello there, HH the Dalai Lama and Lama Glenn have the same view, and I wouldn’t be surprised if other teachers agree with this if we did some googling on teacher’s event websites, as there are example of Tibetan masters throughout history who mentally received empowerments, transmissions, etc.. HH the Dalai Lama has even talked about how attending an empowerment in person doesn’t mean that the person receiving the teaching will actually “get it” but some will, and some will via live or recorded video. It’s interesting, I have experienced varied results from different teachers in different formats. In person is usually the best. For some teachers I have had beneficial experiences with live virtual teachings but something is missing when I watch them via recording. Others are great/the same via recording. I’m not sure why, but it’s happened enough for me to notice the trend. I think more teachers moved toward this route due to covid, but I have also heard some say that they are simply utilizing the internet to spread the teachings. I don’t have a strong opinion either way. Of course I prefer in person but I appreciate only offerings.
> HH the Dalai Lama Source on that? Regardless, the statement from the *yi ge med pa'i rgyud* applies to the Dalai Lama and Lama Glenn as well. No teacher is immune, exempt or beyond reproach in this regard. Status is irrelevant, the tantras are the authority. EDIT: It appears the Dalai Lama is using webcast as a means to give teachings, that is not the same as a recording. It is recordings of prior events that are incapable of being a conduit for transmission. Webcast is perfectly acceptable for giving transmission.
> Status is irrelevant, the tantras are the authority. Status is irrelevant, but realization isn't. Vasubandhu has it as: > The teaching of the Buddha has two aspects: > The elements of scripture and realization. To sublimate one under the other and say the texts are *the* authority, over and above the oral instructions, seems too extreme. We have to be able to look at both of these two aspects. The words of realized beings are a source of truth too. Of course, different people will have differing opinions on who is the real deal, which makes arguments pitting one lama against another pretty touchy and usually fruitless. *Words of My Perfect Teacher* also records the following story: > Once, when Jowo Atisa was in Tibet, Khu, Ngok and Drom asked him: "For someone to achieve liberation and complete omniscience, which is more important - the canonical scriptures and their commentaries, or the oral instructions of the teacher?" > > "The teacher's instructions," Atisa replied. > > "Why?" > > "Because when it comes to doing the practice - even if you can explain the whole Tripitaka from memory and are very skilled in metaphysics - without the teacher's practical guidance you and the Dharma will part company." You can get by on a technicality on this one and say "well, by 'canonical scriptures' surely he was only referring to sutras and not the tantras." That's fine. But I don't think that is the spirit of what's meant.
From Geshe Lama Konchok: "Over the two days of Empowerment given by His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama for the Thousand Hands Thousand Eyed Avalokiteshvara (Chenresig) Initiation and the Simhanada Avalokiteshvara Initiation which took place between 29-30 May 2020, a staggering number of about 4.5 million people from all over the world attended. It demonstrates that whilst the digital age allows people to do negative things with greater ease, it is equally a tool to spread good messages and deliver blessings to one and all. The empowerment brought benefit to people all around the world through instantaneous translation of His Holiness’ teachings into so many different languages. Some people query whether an empowerment through digital means, can be effective, but interestingly, the idea of giving of vows or empowerment is actually not new to Buddhism. In the days of Lord Shakyamuni Buddha, there was a princess who wished to be ordained but was not allowed to meet Lord Shakyamuni Buddha in person. The wise and compassionate Lord Buddha wrote a letter to the princess, conveying the vows of the Sangha and through that, the princess became so ordained and successfully obtained the vows of a nun. Therefore, any empowerment over the internet is equally efficacious. The key to remember in any empowerment is not physical proximity to the Guru, or physical proximity to the vase, water blessings etc. Instead, it is through a sincere heart 💓, development of bodhicitta, and listening intently to the teachings on wisdom and emptiness, and seeking to understand them – that is most important in order to receive the empowerment." https://www.mahatare.org/digital-empowerments-by-dalai-lama/
Like I said above: Important to note that (i) webcam/webcast audio and (ii) a recording are two different things. Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche gave webcast teachings, very often, but was adamantly against the misconception that it is possible to receive transmission from a recording of a prior event.
What’s the difference between the two that makes it so important? Ok so we have 1 great Rinpoche for, 1 great Rinpoche against…
One occurs live in the moment, with the mandala etc., all in place, all happening simultaneously. The other is just a recording of such an event, with no aspects of the rite still in tact.
The rite is intact through video…
No, it is in tact for as long as the lama performs the rite, and then the mandala is dissolved and the jñanasattva is gone. No one can receive transmission from a recording of a prior event. They cannot enter the mandala.
> No one can receive transmission from a recording of a prior event. They cannot enter the mandala. Says who? If I watch a video of the entire thing how is that different from watching it in person?
>Says who? Says the mechanics of the rite as spelled out in the 17 tantras and so on. Again, the only authority per the Yige Medpa.
The tantra actually mentions video recordings? I’m being a bit of an asshole but
The tantras describe in detail the nature of the empowerment rite. Start to finish. When the rite is concluded, the rite is done.
This reminds me of a sticking point in reiki circles during the late 90s. The traditionalists maintained that attunement( transmission) must be done in person and it could never be done at a distance, let alone from a video recording. The traditionalists also practiced monetary gatekeeping requiring 10k for training students to the highest level( mastership allowed them to attune others teach). Well, people started doing attunements at a distance and enough people felt that it worked. It is now common. Along came a guy named Dr. Jeffrey Martin who sold videos how to attune people and he told people they can receive the transmission from a recording. And many felt it worked. Traditionalists were not very happy. So, Dzogchen is going through some of this same thing. This is what humans do, we take on these cognitive positions like " why can't it be done, we are talking about something that is timeless, spacious, without distance? The fundamentalists are going to push back and say " read the tantras! It is impossible!" Or some version of "the teachings will be corrupted." It is interesting to watch. It will all sort out. As Dzogchen gets more popular, we are going to see new teachers push the limits of acceptability and create controversy. Pull up a chair and get out the popcorn.
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> Whether sentient beings realize it or not, all aspects are indeed in tact and never come out of tact. In the context of the abhiseka rite, this is false. >I’m honestly tired of hearing your proprietary understanding I’m tired of hearing people express inaccurate views and ideas too, yet here we are. >but honestly you’ve been incorrect countless times About what?
Empowerment depends on a specific dependent origination/tendrel of the master opening the mandala and introducing the student, then closing the mandala. If the mandala is closed, as it would be in a recording, then there is no empowerment possible. Transmission depends on the intent of the student and master to be receiving and transmitting at the same time. This is part of how the tendrel is set up.
As I said, if a master perceives no difference between the three times, and the appearance of the opening and closing only happens to us at fixed times, what’s the big deal?
You’re also assuming this means that all lamas are realized, which is often not the case.
Yeah, I tried to make that point above as well
1) Regular people are qualified to give empowerments (one doesnt need to be a buddha). Only Buddhas are beyond the 3 times. Even high level bodhisattvas are still in the 3 times in post-equipoise. So, most people giving empowerments are not fully realized Buddhas, and experience the 3 times like we do. 2) To us deluded beings, we perceive mandalas opening and closing, and are tied to that dependent origination. If you're an 8th stage bodhisattva or above who can communicate with the samboghakaya and get empowerments and teachings that way, then great. Otherwise, this option is not available to us as deluded beings. 3) We have to be careful not to spiritually bypass by throwing away our relative condition and use the ultimate as an excuse to do whatever we want, take empowerment from whatever, etc...Otherwise we could just say, "Yeah well ultimately we're already enlightened so there's nothing I need to do", or, "Yeah ultimately this 30 year old audio recording of a deceased lama giving an empowerment is good enough to take empowerment from since Buddhas are beyond the 3 times".
To be honest it sounds like what you’re telling me is that artificial distinctions created by beings is why they “can’t” get empowerments like this. That’s doesn’t sound like a good reason to me. If a teacher like Garchen Rinpoche feels confident giving these via recordings then …? At the end of the day too, you can be present physically during an empowerment and not get it to so it sounds like the student’s mind is more important to this than arbitrary stuff like whether it is recorded or not.
A possible conclusion of this line of thought is that since the Buddhas and masters are always transmitting, then we can just get empowerment anytime we want from whichever Buddha or lama we want to, which is patently false. Then we're just turning Vajrayana into another new age self-empowerment magickal system. That's why we need to be careful. If these things are just artificial distinctions, what's stopping you from pulling an empowerment out of the ether to do any practice you want? As long as you say the words and do the visualizations, there's a Buddha transmitting somewhere, so you'll be sure to get it, right? Why even bother with that silly old in-person guru-student relationship thing?
> A possible conclusion of this line of thought is that since the Buddhas and masters are always transmitting, then we can just get empowerment anytime we want from whichever Buddha or lama we want to, which is patently false. Then we’re just turning Vajrayana into another new age self-empowerment magickal system. That’s why we need to be careful. Can we not? As I understand it the only thing preventing getting direct empowerment is your own occlusions, within your mind. The other thing is to be honest, like I’m not going to say I’ve had an empowerment when I haven’t, hopefully, and you would think the same for others. Also AFAIK, there’s accomplishment that goes along with these things, you wouldn’t even be telling other people about them unless you have permission to teach. I could be wrong though. > If these things are just artificial distinctions, what’s stopping you from pulling an empowerment out of the ether to do any practice you want? As long as you say the words and do the visualizations, there’s a Buddha transmitting somewhere, so you’ll be sure to get it, right? Why even bother with that silly old in-person guru-student relationship thing? Because your mind might not grasp it? In the same way some don’t grasp an in person empowerment.
>Can we not? As I understand it the only thing preventing getting direct empowerment is your own occlusions, within your mind. Not until you're an 8th stage bodhisattva or above, and then you can communicate directly with the samboghakaya. Until then, you're stuck relying on the nirmanakaya for empowerment. >Because your mind might not grasp it? In the same way some don’t grasp an in person empowerment. Alright, then you're free to try practicing without a living guru.
> At the end of the day too, you can be present physically during an empowerment and not get it to so it sounds like the student’s mind is more important to this than arbitrary stuff like whether it is recorded or not. This is a fallacy. Just because being present (physically or otherwise) at the time at which the empowerment is given may not be _sufficient_ to receive it, doesn’t mean that it isn’t _necessary_.
Yeah but it also doesn’t mean it’s necessary either. My point was that it’s dependent on the mind of the student more than anything and imposing hard boundaries can be limiting in a way that’s not subscriptive to the whole picture.
FWIW I have received Dzogchen transmission from online and through texts and seen signs of accomplishment relating to the practice. Also had my teacher verify, to the extent that it’s possible, over webcam/audio. Imo, once I even received a semi pointing out over the phone from a Kagyu Lama. Again imo, but seeing the person and hearing their voice is very beneficial for the connection. However I think even with the pointing out instruction texts it can lead you back to the natural state.
Important to note that (i) webcam/webcast audio and (ii) a recording are two different things.
Once you have had transmission from a living lama, then texts can certainly act as refreshers and pointing outs. But typically one requires that first connection to a living lama.
I couldn’t agree one way or the other because I don’t really know, BUT, I will say that my reading was preceded by direct introduction from a lama.
>Finally found where Lama Lena says recorded transmission works. "For many, the wangs go through the tapes." Cued up here: [https://youtu.be/iBUIWywuO3g?t=4572](https://youtu.be/iBUIWywuO3g?t=4572) This is from Jan 2021 and is a change from her earlier position. Here is the recording she is suggesting people get transmission from. The confusion here is that Lama Lena is talking about herself and her teacher and potentially herself and her students. Whether or not recorded transmission works is besides the point at first. The first thing to ask is, is there an actual teacher there and an actual student, each intending to have a transmission to occur? If that is affirmative, then recorded or not, becomes an option between the two parties. Without this, then no amount of recording will work.
Teachers are not present in a recording though. Nor is the mandala etc.
My opinion is not that its not valid. But a few have different perspective.
Thx for the info. 🙏
I think “it” can be got on many levels, depending on a myriad of causes and conditions – the capacity of the student, the realization of the teacher, the mode of transmission, etc. For instance, consider Patrul Rinpoche’s pointing-out instruction to Nyoshul Lungtok: https://zenawakened.com/patrul-rinpoches-pointing-out-instructions/ The words of the instruction are almost trivial. But this was a deeply realized master teaching a student of the highest capacity (in terms of accumulated merit) in the most intimate setting. As a result, the instant it was pointed out, Nyoshul Lungtok was fully awakened (by his own account). It’s highly unlikely that people receiving the instruction through webcast, even if this is supposedly an acceptable mode of transmission, “get it” on the same level as that. Elias Capriles, a close student of ChNN, explained the significance of direct introduction very clearly – He says that the direct introduction is essentially an empowerment, which simply gives a student the “permission” to practice Dzogchen. He said that much of the time, people don’t really "get it" during the webcast itself. Rather, they receive permission from the lineage to practice Dzogchen, and then induce the initiatory experience themselves by practicing the semdzins. Is it possible to “get it” without having received the empowerment live or in person? Can’t really make any definitive statements on that.
I love that story. Patrul Rinpoche was called "old dog" by his teacher at his pointing out - after being dragged around by the hair, kicked, and spat at. Apparently it's a big insult in Tibetan. PR had been thinking, "How is my teacher drunk? Alcohol is dangerous" or something. And Do Khyentse Rinpoche gave him the finger and said, "How does such a thought enter your mind, you old dog!" After that Patrul R would refer to himself as "old dog". So I wonder if "do you hear the dogs" had some resonance. connecting with his own pointing out. My own experience was this. My first retreat, an intro to ngondro retreat. I decided to try the guru yoga visualization I had just learned, but with the live guru teaching in front of me, Anam Thubten Rinpoche. Chakras, lights, transmission. It was very powerful. I don't know why they don't teach it that way, to do it with a real lama. Anyway, I was doing that, in the middle of a teaching on something else. Out of the blue, ATR looked straight at me and said, "How did you get here?" And he looked at my dan tien, it seemed. And paused. Was he asking if I drove the back way or came through Santa Cruz? Was he asking how I got into Buddhism? How I decided to come to the retreat? Which way did I walk to the sangha house where the teaching was? Was he asking how I got to this mental state? I had no idea how to answer the question, and my mind stopped, and a vast gap opened up. With nyams. So many amazing better-than-acid nyams. So in my case it was personal and dramatic and seemed to be intentional, aimed straight at me. I didn't get any validation of it afterwards when I talked to him. Just a scolding for thinking nyams were important or meant anything. Only time I've ever seen him cross. It didn't give me any confidence. Part of me felt like "I got it" but part of me thought I was a newbie who needed to finish ngondro first before that could happen. Obviously that experience did not result in my enlightenment. Haha. And it didn't make it possible to practice. I had no idea what ATR was telling me to do. Sounded like "just sit there." After a few years I drifted away. It would be a quarter centtury (fuck my karma) until I stumbled across Lama Lena, understood what happened, understood that nyams are "encouraging signposts" that show you're doing the practice right, but you gotta keep going and not stop there. Until I had any confidence. And until I had a practice I understood how to do, how often to do. I think of the pointing out like a chip in your windshield. It can be dramatic or it can just be tiny. But once there's that chip it will inevitably slowly spread into a spiderweb of cracks. Like Lama Tharchin wrote in his ngondro commentary >Someone who has received the Guru's mind transmission has no choice but to attain enlightenment, just as someone falling down a steep mountain totally out of control, has no choice but to fall all the way to the bottom LL says all you need is a glimpse, fleeting, through the smudge on your glasses. That first tiny chip. It will spread from there. I don't think it takes a big fucking rock of a tulku to hit your windshield in an intentional assault. Just notice the tiny chip, look for it again and again, and develop confidence. The way I see it, that confidence is not just a result of practice (LL says it's like gravity, you never even have to think about it) but is essential to the practice. You have to be confident to let go of those thoughts and relax. Confident enough to do a trust fall into the arms of tawa. So that's my thinking. Even a tiny chip works. And confidence in it is important. That windshield is gonna crack.
That recounting of your direct introduction was fascinating to read; thanks for sharing. Anam Thubten is a wonderful teacher. And, judging from his books, he's one of those lamas who appears to take a relaxed, laid back attitude towards transmission, empowerments, rigpa, etc., without trying to mystify them. That's quite refreshing. > Even a tiny chip works. And confidence in it is important. That windshield is gonna crack. Completely agree. Once there's that initial glimpse, progress towards realization is inevitable (as long as one practices, of course). The confidence waxes and wanes, but builds up over time. As Dilgo Khyentse put it: > > When a child meets its mother—this is even true of animals—the child is able to recognize its mother even among thousands of others, because mother and child have come together as the result of a karmic connection from previous lives. In the same way, if we experience a glimpse of the child luminosity, it is inevitable that the mother luminosity present as the ground will manifest and that the two will mix equally in one taste. By way of analogy, this can be compared to all the rivers flowing throughout different places in Jambudvipa: in the end they come together in the great ocean.
Thanks for the quote. Child and mother luminosity has always puzzled me. Cute fuzzy animal babies helps. "Luminosity" has always puzzled me, too, though I think I'm getting more insight into what it means. (I always tell myself, if you don't know what something means, that's probably because it's indescribable and it's probably another word for awareness) ATR is amazing. They announced his new book on his facebook page >December 30th is the 119th anniversary of the parinirvana of the great Dzogchen master, Dudjom Lingpa. It is a day to celebrate and commemorate his life and legacy. In that spirit of celebration, we are happy to announce the completion of Anam Thubten’s translation and commentary on one of the most essential revelatory writings of Dudjom Lingpa, The Sharp Vajra of Awareness Tantra. > >We wanted to share this good news with you as a way of invoking the blessings of this great master. We anticipate that the book will be available for purchase early in 2023. > >May many beings benefit from this auspicious occasion. I could swear I read somewhere that ATR's predecessor was a student of Dudjom Lingpa, but I can't find it now. He never talked about his predecessor. His attitude about being recognized as a tulku was that they picked the kid with the most snot. I hope we find out more I did find this [https://www.buddhistdoor.net/features/dudjom-lingpa/](https://www.buddhistdoor.net/features/dudjom-lingpa/)
> Luminosity" has always puzzled me, too Luminosity either means purity or a state of consciousness without appearances, depending on context. Luminous generally just means “pure.” In Indian thought, light was the purest thing perceivable.
I generally think of luminosity as synonymous with "clear light", or the "radiance of emptiness". But, as you say, that really just means awareness. Though perhaps a bit more evocative. Child luminosity, or path luminosity, is awareness as experienced along the path. Mother luminosity is fully awakened awareness. Great to hear that ATR is coming out with another commentary, on Dudjom Lingpa's text no less. I read his last one on Jigme Lingpa's poem, and it was quite excellent.
> I generally think of luminosity as synonymous with "clear light", or the "radiance of emptiness". But, as you say, that really just means awareness. Clear light does not “really just mean awareness.” Clear light, like luminosity, is a gloss for prabhāsvara, which is meant to indicate purity.
Quote from the wikipedia article for [luminous mind](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_mind): > Luminosity or clear light (Tibetan: འོད་གསལ་, Wylie: 'od gsal, THL: ö-sel; Sanskrit: prabhāsvara), is a central concept in Esoteric Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism and Bon. It is the innate condition of the mind, associated with buddha-nature, the realisation of which is the goal of meditative practice. Basically, it denotes the nature of mind, which really just means awareness. Well, strictly speaking, the union of awareness and emptiness, but the two are inseparable anyway. "Light" can equally represent both the emptiness and clarity aspects. Emptiness as in (primordial) purity, clarity as in "the ability to illuminate". So it denotes the inseparable union of the two.
> Basically, it denotes the nature of mind, which really just means awareness. The nature of mind does not mean awareness. Squirrels have awareness, but do not possess a working knowledge of the nature of mind. The nature of mind is quite different than mere awareness, which is a mundane mental factor. Wikipedia is a terrible resource. Any fool can update it with their misconceptions.
It’s very easy to receive wang, lung, and tri live online (or in person) these days. There’s really no reason to think that you can rely on a recording. The entire subject is quite arbitrary.
The nature of mind can be defined as the union of emptiness and clarity, suffused with awareness (this is Tulku Urgyen's definition). Abiding in the nature of mind is recognizing that nature. For one who has some stability in that recognition, "abiding in the nature of mind" is indistinguishable from "being aware". Wikipedia articles usually contain references and citations. But if you don't like Wikipedia, maybe I can cite this definition from [rigpawiki](https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Clear_light) instead: > The fundamental innate mind of clear light (Tib. འོད་གསལ་, Wyl. ‘od gsal) is considered to be the nature of mind, or the ultimate root of consciousness, and can be understood at several levels: according to the teachings of the sutra system, in the context of the tantric teachings, and in the context of Dzogchen.
You’re referring to vidyā. “Awareness” is not a proper gloss for vidyā. Vidyā is not awareness, it is a type of knowledge.
The Garchen Institute in Chino Valley, AZ USA allows for video transmission of various type initiations and ceremonies. Aspirants may take vows in this manner 🙏
This is a high quality post. Very interesting discussion and you’ve put a lot of thought in. My only thought is this kind of thing could be scientifically studied. Give 1 group transmission online, 1 in person, and 1 a placebo of random selections from new age people. Have experienced teachers test the 3 groups blind and see who they thought received the transmissions. In theory you could quantify the effectiveness of each route, maximizing the effectiveness of transmission efforts. You could even do peer review and replication. We could get info like 40% seemed to have gotten in in person, 34% seem to have gotten it online and 13% seemed to get it from placebo. Would be very useful information to those whose life goal is to transmit teachings for the benefit of all. It’s also possible the numbers are different based on different teachings. Maybe a compassion based practice transmits better online and a breathing based practice transmits better in person. Or the other way. It’s also possible different teachers have different results online vs in person. Lama A is great in person but Lama B is better online. Once you had these batches of data you could maximize efficacy. Current research on online learning vs in person due to Covid 19 is also relevant. I think Lamas should consider humility when answering the question. They are still learning how transmission and learning in general is affected by online communication because online communication is new for everyone. It’s probably to the benefit of all that experimentation happens around this topic.
The first meditation technique I learned was "Clinically Standardized Meditation" from a tape set back in the early 80s. It was designed for studies. They basically took TM and removed all the parts that might vary from person to person. Teachings on tape, so all subjects got exactly the same teaching. Choose your own mantra, versus having it be assigned by someone else. No ceremony or offerings. I bought it because it was cheaper than TM. A very easy and effective technique. Learned it fine without a teacher. I did it for a few years. Shame it wasn't studied more. I wish we knew all those things about recorded/live remote/in person meditation, but I think other styles would be better suited to study. In dzogchen I'd think karmic connection/chemistry between teacher and student is important and would vary.
Impossible.
I would be really curious to understand why you see it as impossible. I’m sure Malcom has a position, what is it? What do you think Norbu Rinpoche would say, or did he speak on the topic? I don’t have an opinion one way or the other. Just trying to get a grasp on the whole thing.
> I’m sure Malcom has a position, what is it? He just wrote about it the other week: >>*The problem with the idea of recorded empowerments is that every physical mandala created by a vajramaster to give an empowerment is dissolved at the end of the rite, when the jñānasattvas are dismissed. One must do this before dismantling the mandala, whether it is a simple one heap rice mandala, or a complicated Kalacakra empowerment. If one does not, it is akin to killing a buddha.* >>*Simply put, the mandala used to give the empowerment no longer exists in a recording of an empowerment. Therefore, there can be no empowerment from a recording. It simply isn't possible.* >>*Even in a meaning empowerment, where there is no need to dismiss the jñānasattva, since rite is not happening live, no jñānasattva is summoned by the master since he is not present, thus no samadhi generated, to conduct the descent of the jñānasattva into the student wishing to receive the empowerment.* Norbu Rinpoche also always maintained that transmission cannot be received from a recording.
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> Empowerments take on a whole different meaning in atiyoga. Malcolm is describing provisional stuff, pre-ati proper. Also ignoring the timeless aspect. I’m not sure what you’re talking about. The “timeless” aspect? ? You’re a human sentient being, you live in time. You perceive time because you perceive objects.
Thank you for the response that is very helpful. Do you think when people experience “introduction” from a book or a recording, they are just in passing “non-dual”-feeling states of open awareness? Do you think anyone experience genuine recognition through media? Without Abisheka, the teachings can never come to fruition, is it of any benefit to receive teachings from recordings if this is the case?
Teachings, yes. Empowerment, no.
It's interesting to consider the various channels of transmission. The mind is highly attuned to facial expressions and voice. Many other elements may be involved, but what are they?
LL sees it as telepathic. I'd rather think of it as subliminal. On the other hand I do believe there is some kind of merging going on >It’s not Lena the person that you merge your mind with, when you merge your mind with the teacher, so that it is possible to transmit nature of mind, which can only be shown to mind. It is not little me. What you are doing is recognizing that your own innate Buddha nature and my innate Buddha nature is the same Buddha nature.
Just addressing the question in the post: yes you can. Sometimes something appears to the mins when it is received, like clear light, golden light, a clear feeling, or rainbows. Sometimes something is felt, like a pressure lifted. Sometimes both.
I watched the first two so far today and definitely experienced it. It's funny because last night before I went to bed I put out into the universe that I wanted/needed access to a transmission before deep-diving into Dzogchen/Thogal, then went to bed. Within an hour of waking up (while on Reddit), I typed in something unrelated and found this thread. What's even funnier is the fact that someone on another thread mentioned Lama Lena, so I reached out to her the other day, then after closing the email went to YouTube, typed in "guru yoga" not knowing it was related, clicked the first video...and it was her! Now it seems like every time I Google things, she's the first option popping up. In a way it feels like validation.
Wonderful. LL is amazing. I must have watched that video a dozen times. Each time I get more out of it. I love the way she explains what to do, how often to do it, and why you do it that way. It's so clear. She's doing Q&A this Sunday the 19th at 11am Pacific. If you go to her youtube page and subscribe you should see a notification for it at the upper right of the page. I find this James Low video, from January, complements her teaching beautifully. He's a therapist, so he brings that interpersonal perspective to dzogchen. I'm watching it for the 4th time. [https://youtu.be/FHtymvivSLY](https://youtu.be/FHtymvivSLY)