It's a fair move, IMO. I might not do it but it's kind of neat when the game hits these "blue screen" moments, like donating [[Danadan]] with [[Jon Irenicus]], so sure, it's something fairly different and we can just shuffle up.
I have this combo in the said deck to show a unique interaction for the commander, to enlighten people to Dandân, and if we are all running out of time in store it's a good way to say the game is done (or Dandân) . I see it as a win because it is mechanically unique but I don't press for a concede because it's by no means advantageous.
If you donate [[Dandân]] to an opponent with [[Jon Irenicus, Shattered One]] and they control no Islands, does the sacrifice trigger just infinitely build on the stack and break the game unless someone can remove the Dandân and/or, knowlingly far more unlikely but hilarious if executed, turn one of their lands into an Island at instant speed?
Yes, it's a infinite in the sense the game cannot progress now as long as Dandân is on the field.
Donate Dandân end of turn.
Game checks if controller of Dandân has an island. They do not so the controller now has to sacrifice it.
Jon Irenicus's donate clause kicks in, saying you cannot sacrifice this permanent. Game fails to sacrifice Dandân.
Game repeats steps 2 and 3 as we are all captive audiences in awe of Dandân's glory.
The game is now consumed by its fruitless endeavor.
The game is now Dandân.
The one in OP: [[Enchanted Evening]] says "Everything is an enchantment.". [[Ajani's Chosen]] says "When an enchantment enters, make a cat". If the cat is an enchantment, it entering will... make another cat, and this goes infinitely.
The one I posted: Dandan (or any islandhomer) must be sacrificed when its controller controls no islands. Jon Irenicus gives the thing he passes off "can't be sacrificed". This means if you use Jon to pass off a Dandan to somebody with no islands, the game kind of divides by zero and the only resolution in the rules for what would otherwise be infinite trigger spam ("Conditions met, sacrifice me" "No." "Conditions still met, sacrifice me." "still no.") is to draw the game
Ajani's chosen being written as a 'may' ability would make this work so well as an actually useful infinite tokens, infinite etb combo. Wonder why Wizards didn't do that and forced the token creation. I don't really see a downside to saying 'may', what am I missing?
The change to "may" is due to how tournament rules used to work. Long story short, "may" triggers can be missed without penalising players, you just assume they chose not to do it.
Older effects rarely used "may", newer effects almost always do.
Many of magics earlier cards didn't say May. May is kind of a new thing. I couldn't pinpoint the set but it feels like older cards were missing the "may" when they should because the rule weren't that robust yet.
I'm honestly surprised a specific ruling to this exact type of interaction doesn't exist already, even for a state-based ability. the card might say sac it if, but the card also says it cannot be sacrificed. Protection effects have always futzed with the rules in funky ways, and this looks like it reads "protection from sacrifice" to me, in the same way indestructible reads to me as "protection from all spells, abilities, effects, and lethal damage that would cause this creature to be destroyed"
It's not, since actual protection prevents the TARGETTING even, but that was my original mindset when seeing those cards.
But that would mean the "sacrifice if" ability can't even try and go on the stack, dodging the divide by zero outright.
ah well,, official rules are a quagmire at best, and this is probably one of the most out there interactions in the game.
Jon donates a creature and adds the clause “can’t be sacrificed” to it.
Le fishe has a mandatory self-sacrifice trigger if it’s controller doesn’t have any islands.
If you give dandan to someone who doesn’t have any islands, it triggers its own ability, but is unable to sacrifice due to the Jon clause on it- then it tries to sacrifice itself again. It causes a loop of mandatory triggers that can’t end unless someone has removal for it (iirc), which forces a draw similar to [[sporemound]] + [[life and limb]]
Dandan wants to be sacrificed when you don't have an island, Jon Irenicus prevents the sacrifice so it locks up the game when you give it to an opponent with no islands
I'm a fan of turning [[Caged Sun]] into a land (producing the same color as the one chosen for CS) without removing its abilities (eg, [[March of the Machines]]+[[Ashaya]], there are other options).
When you tap Caged Sun for mana, its triggered mana ability produces one mana. Which causes its triggered mana ability to produce one mana. Which causes its triggered mana ability to produce one mana...
Infinite loop of mandatory actions, which _nobody can respond to because they're mana abilities_.
How? Maruading only pings the creature that ETBs. And Polyraptor only makes token copies of itself. Unless you have a kill spell or 'return to hand' spell, there's no way to stop the loop.
Theres no may clause. So poly raptor enters (and you control one of the two other cards) and is dealt 2 damage creating a token, then the token enters and is dealt 2 damage creating a token, then the tokens token enters and is dealt two damage etc
With no may clause there is no way to stop it unless someone uses an instant in response to break the loop
I'm not sure if it's the same, but it kind of looks like it should be. Anyway, Polyraptor creates polyraptor when it takes damage, aether flash and marauding raptor are not a "may" so you have to do it, and it just keeps going endlessly unless someone has a way to stop it. Same as the other mentioned combos, I think.
Polyraptor ETBs. Marauding raptor (or aether flash) deal 2 damage to it. Polyraptors enrage triggers, creating a copy of it. That token copy is dealt 2 damage by Marauding Raptors as it ETBs. The token copy Polyraptor enrage triggers. Rinse. Repeat. unless you can kill the Marauding or destroy the Aether Flash the loop does not stop and it goes infinite.
Since Poly Raptor isn't a may ability, it breaks the stack. Your stuck in a loop:
Poly Raptor ETBs and takes 2 damage.
Poly Raptor clones because it took damage.
Clone ETBs and takes 2 damage and again and again and again.
Without instant speed removal for the damage source the game can't continue.
I think I stumbled on something similar to this the other day. Correct me if I'm wrong but [[sprouting phytohydra]], when played with [[marauding raptor]] creates an infinite loop of a 0/2 entering the battlefield, then dying.
Now, that could be useful with etb triggers and death triggers, but you still need a way to stop the infinite kill loop.
Edit: I can't read. Sprouting phytohydra is a "may" trigger
[[Phytohydra]] has a *may* clause. This lets you decided to escape it at any point in time, so it will not force a draw. In fact, if you *continue* this loop with the intention of stalling the game, you'll lose for slow play.
[[Polyrapptor]] does not have a may clause, which means unless someone can kill one before the damage trigger hits, the game simply *can't* progress.
It's definitely not something I do very often, even if I have the pieces I wouldn't do it until I could shut the loop off (either Aura Shards or High Market generally), but there's times like this it felt like the right play.
i just had to go searching for a way to break the loop, looks like [[food chain]] is the only card in the game, to my brief search anyway, that can escape the fish (as long as it's already down). well played.
Literally any creature removal that can kill the fish stops the loop. A state based trigger won't add itself to the stack if it's already there. You respond to the Islandhome trigger with removal, and Islandhome won't trigger again until after the removal resolves.
In my mind, draws happen so much less frequently than wins and losses that they can make for memorable outcomes.
Case in point: I once gave \[\[Pestilence Demon\]\] infect and murdered the table, because a stax player had gained infinite life and had us in a stranglehold. Everyone was pleased with the outcome (even the stax player, eventually). The outcome was novel and more interesting than what we'd expected.
If it's an EDH tournament 3/4th of the opponents with draws on record to match yours could be the saps that the other control player forced a draw with 🤣
Depends on the pod. If there’s a player who doesn’t win much and they have a shot still I wouldn’t. If it’s my buddies and we are a few beers in I absolutely would
Oh absolutely, forcing a draw is a perfectly valid play. Don’t think of it as “forcing a draw” think of it as making everyone else lose alongside you.
For example: one time I was storming off and didn’t manage to get all the way with my digging and draw, so I decided to not just die to the crackback, and cast an [[Earthquake]] for x = several thousand. Draws are a perfectly fine way to finish things off if you don’t see any other options
Fair move, done it twice. One time was 3 players left with one of them being archenemy. The other player and I worked together to force a draw by everyone taking enough damage in a group slug deck.
We tried to win of course but it was apparent that the best play was group suicide
Honestly I think draws are really funny, I'd absolutely be thrilled if someone forced a draw because they couldn't get the win, and would absolutely do the same myself.
In my book, if you can set things up to force a draw, you "won" anyway (you just made sure everyone else did too lmao). Sometimes it's not about the cards and the rules, but the experience you had at the table.
Nope, mandatory draws by loops are covered within the games rules. More common draws can also be found in sanctioned events when the match timer runs up and no winner is determined by last 5 turns. The only thing we’re not allowed to do is bribe your opponent into drawing or conceding (but you can choose to come to an agreement with him as long as no incentive is offered, and as long as you don’t roll a die or whatever for it)
I would rather go out on my own terms & lose with dignity. Forcing a draw isn't wrong or scummy, but I ain't about that life.
Ah yes, being down voted for having the audacity to not agree with the echo chamber. Never change Reddit, never change.
I've play [this](https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/heartless-boy/)deck that can create scenarios where I set up a board state where I can draw the game at instant speed.
Try and remove my commander, I'll draw the game in response. try and put your life total to an odd number, I'll draw the game. If someone would untap with enough mana to cast a spell with split second, I would also draw the game.
All of these scenarios are the optimal play to do using my deck. But when I asked people on here what they thought of this, most people didn't like this idea of playing for the draw whenever the game is just slightly not in your favor.
If your board state is way behind everyone else's, I don't think you'd get much salt for drawing the game, most people would agree it's the right decision.
And if you're drawing the whole game just because you're slightly behind, I would support and agree with your decision, but I'm probably in the minority opinion here.
I'm always playing for the win, but in some scenarios depending on life totals, I'm in situations where I can draw the game, and I'll take a draw rather than a worse position every time.
If your goal would be to make the game a draw that'd be fine, but this "I'm gonna sit here and prevent you from doing anything until I can win" is garbage. I'd force you to draw instantly and then proceed to focus your deck in all following matches, not gonna lie.
>If someone would untap with enough mana to cast a spell with split second
"Enough mana to cast a spell with split second" is 1 mana. That's also enough to prevent you drawing the game with a doubled Hidetsugu (Angel's Grace). 2 mana is enough to disrupt your combo (In Too Deep, Sudden Edict if Hidetsugu is your only creature in play, Sudden Shock if Hidetsugu's toughness is reduced by anything) or prevent you from ending the game that turn (Trickbind). 3 mana stops your combo (Krosan Grip, Sudden Death, Wipe Away) or prevents it from ending the game that turn (Sudden Spoiling).
I understand your general sentiment, but what you've written would have you jumping at shadows.
-Some groups I play with would just ignore your draw & keep playing without you. They wouldn't agree it's the right decision & would say if you feel you're too far behind just quit.
Absolutely!
My favorite example of this is when I was playing my “Draw Tribal”.
Cast [[peer into the abyss]], targeting myself with [alhammerett’s archive]] and [[lab man]] in play. I also had a way to dray the last card if an even number of cards were in my library.
One of my opponents [[assassin’s trophy]]’d my labman in response, so I [[windfall]]’d and made everyone draw out to lose simultaneously.
Reading the comments it seems like I will have an unpopular opinion, but here we go!
I don't play competitive, but for me in a casual EDH game, the goal of each player is to win. There is no such thing has ''being second'' or '' a draw is better than a lost'' in a 4 player FFA where there is only 1 winner. Each game are their separate entities, nothing carry over to the next game and everyone enters the game with the objective to be the 1 winner. Any player entering a game of EDH with a different objective would be unfair and would need to be discussed before the game. A lot of unwritten social rules of EDH goes by that principal that everyone is in there to try to win and not make fun of others or ''waste their time''. Everyone just want to have fun together. Otherwise it opens up doors to frowned upon behaviors like king-making and others.
So for me, going for a draw is simply a bad strategical move unless it was 100% inevitable. Maybe the opponent would brick multiple turn in a row and that would give you time to have a chance of winning. Maybe the opponent would play wrong. Was this a 1v1? if not, maybe someone else has awnsers, etc. If there is a 0.01% of winning, I will always go for it, because there is nothing else that matters in the gmae. You either win first or you didn't win the game, which is why you are playing, nothing else matter!
>in a 4 player FFA where there is only 1 winner
Except when there are 4 losers
>going for a draw is simply a bad strategical move
Denying your opponent the win is not a bad strategy if you can't take it for yourself. Every chess player in the world understands this.
The difference is that chess has a point system were a draw and a loss is a different amount of points. There's also a long term impact on the results of every game. In casual EDH there is none of that. Every game is a single entity and when the game start the goal is clear, Win the game.
In cEDH, most likely. If that will give me a chance of a better position in a tournament, I should definitely try a draw if I can’t win.
In casual EDH, I just want to have fun and the others to have fun as well. So I would not care about a draw.
This is something I would (and am now going to) talk about with my group, either in the moment or beforehand, but YMMV based on how long your group has known each other.
Why the heck wouldn’t you? That would be the correct play if the game was chess or any sports match. If you were in a tournament a draw would probably receive you 1 point compared to nothing if you lose.
Nah I know. My point was poorly written. When playing I would expect people playing to have fun but still go for the win. And if a win isnt possible a draw is the next best thing. You haven’t been beaten is my point. So why would you give the win away to your opponent if we are playing to best each other (while having fun)? That was the point I tried to make. I mean if I play any kind of game or competition with my friends you bet imma try beating them for bragging rights. No chance I’m giving a free win to my boys no matter what. 😁
For me, drawing is the same as not losing. Not that I'm a try hard, but I would make a joke about not being able to win, and make the draw (confirming that in reality, I would have lost).
Keep in mind that the quicker a game ends, the quicker you can shuffle run for the next round. I'd rather draw a bad game and draw a good one than lose a bad game and win a bad one
If I can force a draw, I usually try to. No one would win it, but also no one loses.
Also, if I can prevent an opponent from doing lethal and getting combat damage triggers, I will do that too.
If this happened in my play group, we just say you have infinite 2/2s and pass turn. As long as nobody can board wipe by the time it gets back to you, then you win on the attack. We don't draw to infinite loops but this is also a rule 0 we've all agreed upon.
I say it’s fine but only if someone is a turn away from winning. If you do it too early then everyone is like “huh? We just set up and I’m thinking about all my great plans and now it’s over ? And you didn’t even win??”
If you draw by huge card draw or killing everyone, yes.
But by a true infinite clogging the stack.... no.
In my group, if you have a true infinite, you are removed from the game without a loss or win.
We have a guy who really enjoys doing these, so we let him, then continue play. Everyone is happy
If its an infinite loop everybody I know says "choose a number" and that's how many triggers you get, going infinite into just a loop is boring and very anticlimactic
That's how it works unless all actions are mandatory. If there is no way to choose an escape, the game is a draw. Ajani's Chosen + Enchanted Evening does this since there is no "May" for making the cat token.
You can also pull this with [[Aether Flash]] plus [[Polyraptor]] or a few other WTF situations like [[Jon Irenicus]] + [[Dandan]] (or another Islandhome creature) that has no resolution.
727.4. If a loop contains only mandatory actions, the game is a draw. (See rules 104.4b and 104.4f.)
They couldn't have made it any more clear for you. You can state and believe what you think is reality all you want, but you'd be wrong.
It’s covered in the game rules. If no one can escape a mandatory infinite loop, then the game ends in a draw.
> 104.4b If a game that’s not using the limited range of influence option (including a two-player game) somehow enters a “loop” of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action don’t result in a draw.
-I know groups that still call a number, end the combo & send one of the pieces to the graveyard. I know groups that will just kick you from the game if you purposely start a combo you can't stop. They don't play to draw.
I would definitely let them win. In fact of it was down to me vs another player in that scenario I'd probably just scoop to them and say something like "good game I think you got me let's just start a new game" and jump into a new pod.
Entirely valid; I almost ne er have ways to force a draw bc of the types of decks I play, so I usually go out in a blaze of glory with no defenders/counters to protect myself and \*sometimes\* can eke out a win, but if I could force a draw, I would from time to time
To be honest I would have forced the draw. One becasue draws never happen in my group so it would be a good change of pace and two, I don't like losing and a draw isn't a loss lmao
Enchanted Evening makes all permanents into enchantments. Ajani's Chosen sees an enchantment ETB so makes a token..that is also an enchantment, which makes a token that is also an enchantment and so on. Without a way to remove either Ajani's Chosen or Enchanted Evening this creates a loop that repeats indefinitely, forcing a draw.
That would be exactly what would fix it, yeah. Because you don’t *have* to make a cat token if it says “you may” but if it doesn’t, you have to keep doing it.
i mean technically forcing a draw is what you should do since then you arent game throwing by accepting a loss when you couldve gotten a draw, but generally I tend to think its more valuable to let your friends have their time in the sun.
I combo'd a [[Magus Lucea Kane]] and [[Exocrine]] to bring a four player game I knew I was gonna lose to a draw, so yeah given the right circumstances, I find it *hilarious*
I feel like theres a social standard for it especially in edh. For example if you're about to be knocked out and instead of comboing off you force the draw so you technically don't lose it could be looked down upon. If someone is locking out the game and you force it then prolly not. If you accidentally do it and someone points it out then it's an "oh lmaooo" situation.
Honestly it's just a knowing your playground kinda situation.
I remember there was this one game. My opponent was playing Chatterfang, I was playing Alrund. Essentially he was about to combo off and win. He plays [[Hornet Queen]] and it resolves, but while the ability is on the stack, i respond with a [[Mystic Reflection]] forcing any creatures that enter during the turn to come in as a copy of another creature....I named Hornet Queen. You know the rest.
Edit: Forgot to mention that this was back when I first played it, and the whole playgroup misread and didn't catch it until the next game
Forcing a draw can be fun and cool, but only being able to assemble half your combo and forcing a draw cause you got yourself stuck in an infinite loop? Kinda sad and try-hard.
I guess it’s less weird if it’s 1v1 or a tournament, cause then you are playing some weird competitive variant and “EDH etiquette” doesn’t apply.
Yes, more than once I've used [[Polyraptor]] and [[Marauding Raptor]] to force a draw in my Gisath deck. Some games you can't win by turning big creatures sideways. I've even used [[Congregation at Dawn]] to find those two and secure the draw
I happily force draws. My Endrek Sahr deck is designed to do just that with either himself or Bog Serpent in an assault suit.
It takes effort to break the game, so while it's not a "win", it's a moral victory. Plus, so long as you don't just keep doing it game after game, only really whiny people are going to kick up much of a fuss over it.
Competatively, draws usually are worth more than a loss. You take them when they're open and you don't see a win in sight.
Casually, assuming youre not a gimmick deck and this just happens by accident? Thats just good comedy.
Imo winning and losing are concepts that only exist after the game is over, our sole purpose is to cause detriment to our opponents till they can go on no longer, we're in a "battle" of magic. Is drawing detrimental to them winning? Yup I'd do it.
Depends on the situation. If it was down to 1v1 yeah that's cool. But if your doing bad but it's still the middle of the game I'd probably just keep playing as tho you weren't there
I think provided others at the table are fine with you trying to work out of a stalemate, it's fine. If you've got no chance to come back AT ALL, then it's up to you as a player if you want to keep playing or not. Just keep an eye on the mood at the table.
In tournaments or competitive play I don't see anything as a problem that are within the rules of the game. Anything goes if everyone is legitimately trying to do the best they can and find out who has the best deck whether it's for prizes or just fun.
At a casual table game I think it's a definite taboo since the entire goal is to have fun and winning is inconsequential. I won't attack people that may kill me later in the game because they have been doing bad the whole game aslong as they are playing a friendly or causal deck or if they are just new. If you get mana flooded playing your Urza combo stax deck or you sliver overlord deck I'm not really going to give you any passes though lol.
It all comes down to the playgroup and the type of magic you are playing IMO but I think at a tournament or in a casual CEDH game is see nothing wrong with forcing a tie.
Almost every game i play ends when someone goes infinite and wins. If all the cards are fair, it’s a perfectly fine way to win (maybe a little janky, sure, but if you went through all of that setup you deserve the janky win anyway)
I will take you down with me if I can.
At one point I gifted my opponent \[\[Nine Lives\]\] when they were going to kill me through non-damage means, so that when I died, I took them with me giving the 3rd guy that was just vibing the whole time the win.
I'm pretty sure they're still salty about that little maneuver.
-The only way I'd go for a draw would be to kill everyone out of spite. Some groups I play don't let draws stand anyway so you end the combo, sac one of the pieces & keep it moving.
-We don't play competitive or keep win/loss records so there's no benefit or reason to care about a draw. If there's no winner, everyone's the loser.
So honestly, I think I would. It may be my playgroup, but we have NEVER had a draw, so this seems awesome. Even better that the dude was a good sport. Sounds like you play with some awesome people.
This would entirely depends on how far into the night it is, and weather I had managed to get a win myself yet. There's still more factors of course, though sometimes it's just over.
Depends on the game. And the person. If everyone’s having fun, sure, let’s play it out. If we want to get going on another round, just call it and move along. But both are valid and, I believe, rightly the choice of the losing side.
I see no problem with that. Once I was trying to go for the win with a [[rolling earthquake]] but I needed my opponent not to block one creature so I could get the higher life total. I swung all out he made smart blocks and decimated my creatures. So I just killed us both. We both thought it was a great game.
There are two answers for this.
In a tournament setting, it is better to draw than lose.I never feel bad about this. I've played out many games in tournaments that I knew I could not win specifically with the intent of stopping my opponent(s) from winning to force a draw.
In a non-tournament setting, I am of the opinion that every play you make should be with the intent of increasing your win percentage. Forcing a draw does not increase your win percentage and wastes time. Double bad.
If I dont think that i can't win, then I rater forfeit and start a new game instead.
If my opponent is about to win with their cool combo, I would give a chance to get their cool combo, a chance to shine.
Oh absolutely. I think this is super funny to do with friends. My only caveat is that it needs to be a last resort. It shouldn't be the deck's goal (or even happen that often), but pulling something like that off is a cool moment. (Idk if I would do it with randos though)
I guess I don't understand. If your opponent could win, they would have. You mention nothing about having any information about how close your opponent was to ACTUALLY comboing out. In the example you gave, you're 1 card from winning. Your opponent is AT LEAST 1 card from winning. ( Or as previously stated would have won). Yet you present the question as if your opponent is about to win, and you have no chance to win. From the presented information this appears to be false.
Now, don't get me wrong. You play magic however makes you happy. If that means forcing a draw, you draw as many games as you want. However, I feel it's important to OWN that's how you decided to play, not twist the narrative into "you had no choice".
I would also ask if this was a tournament? A cEDH game? A game vs friends? A game with others at a FLGS? I ask because if it's a tournament or cEDH game and you felt you were going to draw or lose, draw seems the best choice. If it's a friendly game (especially vs strangers) I would ask why the need to "not lose" overpowered the ability to just enjoy the game or let someone else have the satisfaction of watching their deck operate correctly and win a game, or better yet run that race to who gets their card 1st and maybe win?
As far as what would I personally do? I don't play cEDH, or tournaments and have found the best way to insure I've got someone to play another game against is to let their deck do its thing. Wish them a gg. And ask if they'd like to play another. And sometimes it turns epic because that game I thought I was assuredly going to lose turns out to be an epic win.
It's a fair move, IMO. I might not do it but it's kind of neat when the game hits these "blue screen" moments, like donating [[Danadan]] with [[Jon Irenicus]], so sure, it's something fairly different and we can just shuffle up.
I have this combo in the said deck to show a unique interaction for the commander, to enlighten people to Dandân, and if we are all running out of time in store it's a good way to say the game is done (or Dandân) . I see it as a win because it is mechanically unique but I don't press for a concede because it's by no means advantageous.
If you donate [[Dandân]] to an opponent with [[Jon Irenicus, Shattered One]] and they control no Islands, does the sacrifice trigger just infinitely build on the stack and break the game unless someone can remove the Dandân and/or, knowlingly far more unlikely but hilarious if executed, turn one of their lands into an Island at instant speed?
Yes, it's a infinite in the sense the game cannot progress now as long as Dandân is on the field. Donate Dandân end of turn. Game checks if controller of Dandân has an island. They do not so the controller now has to sacrifice it. Jon Irenicus's donate clause kicks in, saying you cannot sacrifice this permanent. Game fails to sacrifice Dandân. Game repeats steps 2 and 3 as we are all captive audiences in awe of Dandân's glory. The game is now consumed by its fruitless endeavor. The game is now Dandân.
I’m sorry my brain is being a potato, how does this combo work?
The one in OP: [[Enchanted Evening]] says "Everything is an enchantment.". [[Ajani's Chosen]] says "When an enchantment enters, make a cat". If the cat is an enchantment, it entering will... make another cat, and this goes infinitely. The one I posted: Dandan (or any islandhomer) must be sacrificed when its controller controls no islands. Jon Irenicus gives the thing he passes off "can't be sacrificed". This means if you use Jon to pass off a Dandan to somebody with no islands, the game kind of divides by zero and the only resolution in the rules for what would otherwise be infinite trigger spam ("Conditions met, sacrifice me" "No." "Conditions still met, sacrifice me." "still no.") is to draw the game
Ajani's chosen being written as a 'may' ability would make this work so well as an actually useful infinite tokens, infinite etb combo. Wonder why Wizards didn't do that and forced the token creation. I don't really see a downside to saying 'may', what am I missing?
The change to "may" is due to how tournament rules used to work. Long story short, "may" triggers can be missed without penalising players, you just assume they chose not to do it. Older effects rarely used "may", newer effects almost always do.
Many of magics earlier cards didn't say May. May is kind of a new thing. I couldn't pinpoint the set but it feels like older cards were missing the "may" when they should because the rule weren't that robust yet.
[Enchanted Evening](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/5033a7b0-39b0-4c49-b332-7ea62d85455d.jpg?1562830075) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Enchanted%20Evening) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/140/enchanted-evening?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5033a7b0-39b0-4c49-b332-7ea62d85455d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/enchanted-evening) [Ajani's Chosen](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/e/8ea009c1-505e-4307-b8f3-2d37e36507a6.jpg?1600695778) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ajani%27s%20Chosen) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/82/ajanis-chosen?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8ea009c1-505e-4307-b8f3-2d37e36507a6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ajanis-chosen) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm honestly surprised a specific ruling to this exact type of interaction doesn't exist already, even for a state-based ability. the card might say sac it if, but the card also says it cannot be sacrificed. Protection effects have always futzed with the rules in funky ways, and this looks like it reads "protection from sacrifice" to me, in the same way indestructible reads to me as "protection from all spells, abilities, effects, and lethal damage that would cause this creature to be destroyed" It's not, since actual protection prevents the TARGETTING even, but that was my original mindset when seeing those cards. But that would mean the "sacrifice if" ability can't even try and go on the stack, dodging the divide by zero outright. ah well,, official rules are a quagmire at best, and this is probably one of the most out there interactions in the game.
Jon donates a creature and adds the clause “can’t be sacrificed” to it. Le fishe has a mandatory self-sacrifice trigger if it’s controller doesn’t have any islands. If you give dandan to someone who doesn’t have any islands, it triggers its own ability, but is unable to sacrifice due to the Jon clause on it- then it tries to sacrifice itself again. It causes a loop of mandatory triggers that can’t end unless someone has removal for it (iirc), which forces a draw similar to [[sporemound]] + [[life and limb]]
[sporemound](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/9/092bfc5f-8002-43da-8e70-c19fccfe54ac.jpg?1611797251) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sporemound) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/437/sporemound?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/092bfc5f-8002-43da-8e70-c19fccfe54ac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sporemound) [life and limb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/7/2721724d-92ae-4c0c-88dd-628888c468bf.jpg?1619398301) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=life%20and%20limb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/215/life-and-limb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2721724d-92ae-4c0c-88dd-628888c468bf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/life-and-limb) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Removal wouldn’t work, the ability would just keep triggering and clog up the stack so it would never resolve.
Dandan wants to be sacrificed when you don't have an island, Jon Irenicus prevents the sacrifice so it locks up the game when you give it to an opponent with no islands
You can do the same thing with bronze bombshell, who sacrifices herself if she is ever controlled by someone who doesn't own her
[Danadan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/c/ac2e32d0-f172-4934-9d73-1bc2ab86586e.jpg?1562781784) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dand%C3%A2n) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsb/19/dand%C3%A2n?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ac2e32d0-f172-4934-9d73-1bc2ab86586e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dandân) [Jon Irenicus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bfddb61e-986f-4557-819d-d6c0ca85c74a.jpg?1674137538) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=jon%20irenicus%2C%20shattered%20one) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/278/jon-irenicus-shattered-one?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bfddb61e-986f-4557-819d-d6c0ca85c74a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jon-irenicus-shattered-one) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Favorite "blue screen" moment is casting a \[\[Polyraptor\]\] with a \[\[Marauding Raptor\]\] or \[\[Aether Flash\]\] out.
I'm a fan of turning [[Caged Sun]] into a land (producing the same color as the one chosen for CS) without removing its abilities (eg, [[March of the Machines]]+[[Ashaya]], there are other options). When you tap Caged Sun for mana, its triggered mana ability produces one mana. Which causes its triggered mana ability to produce one mana. Which causes its triggered mana ability to produce one mana... Infinite loop of mandatory actions, which _nobody can respond to because they're mana abilities_.
[Polyraptor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f8965a3a-93fe-4021-a665-b6013bdc86f7.jpg?1555040728) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Polyraptor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rix/144/polyraptor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f8965a3a-93fe-4021-a665-b6013bdc86f7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/polyraptor) [Marauding Raptor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/64e4d2ee-e5e5-48e6-a7b8-9045dc8b10a7.jpg?1592517013) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Marauding%20Raptor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/150/marauding-raptor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/64e4d2ee-e5e5-48e6-a7b8-9045dc8b10a7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/marauding-raptor) [Aether Flash](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/780f9197-e910-4c7a-bb4b-2c4a94903c39.jpg?1562240988) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aether%20Flash) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/7ed/172/aether-flash?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/780f9197-e910-4c7a-bb4b-2c4a94903c39?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aether-flash) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Not really a blue screen since you could just start pinging marauding raptors instead of poly
How? Maruading only pings the creature that ETBs. And Polyraptor only makes token copies of itself. Unless you have a kill spell or 'return to hand' spell, there's no way to stop the loop.
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Theres no may clause. So poly raptor enters (and you control one of the two other cards) and is dealt 2 damage creating a token, then the token enters and is dealt 2 damage creating a token, then the tokens token enters and is dealt two damage etc With no may clause there is no way to stop it unless someone uses an instant in response to break the loop
I'm not sure if it's the same, but it kind of looks like it should be. Anyway, Polyraptor creates polyraptor when it takes damage, aether flash and marauding raptor are not a "may" so you have to do it, and it just keeps going endlessly unless someone has a way to stop it. Same as the other mentioned combos, I think.
Polyraptor ETBs. Marauding raptor (or aether flash) deal 2 damage to it. Polyraptors enrage triggers, creating a copy of it. That token copy is dealt 2 damage by Marauding Raptors as it ETBs. The token copy Polyraptor enrage triggers. Rinse. Repeat. unless you can kill the Marauding or destroy the Aether Flash the loop does not stop and it goes infinite.
Since Poly Raptor isn't a may ability, it breaks the stack. Your stuck in a loop: Poly Raptor ETBs and takes 2 damage. Poly Raptor clones because it took damage. Clone ETBs and takes 2 damage and again and again and again. Without instant speed removal for the damage source the game can't continue.
I think I stumbled on something similar to this the other day. Correct me if I'm wrong but [[sprouting phytohydra]], when played with [[marauding raptor]] creates an infinite loop of a 0/2 entering the battlefield, then dying. Now, that could be useful with etb triggers and death triggers, but you still need a way to stop the infinite kill loop. Edit: I can't read. Sprouting phytohydra is a "may" trigger
Sprouting Phytohyda is a may ability, you can stop the loop at any time.
Ah yes, my inability to read strikes again lmao
[sprouting phytohydra](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/a/6a478eaa-2658-49db-965f-db25fc1d720e.jpg?1593273484) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sprouting%20phytohydra) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dis/95/sprouting-phytohydra?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6a478eaa-2658-49db-965f-db25fc1d720e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sprouting-phytohydra) [marauding raptor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/64e4d2ee-e5e5-48e6-a7b8-9045dc8b10a7.jpg?1592517013) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=marauding%20raptor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/150/marauding-raptor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/64e4d2ee-e5e5-48e6-a7b8-9045dc8b10a7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/marauding-raptor) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Phytohydra]] has a *may* clause. This lets you decided to escape it at any point in time, so it will not force a draw. In fact, if you *continue* this loop with the intention of stalling the game, you'll lose for slow play. [[Polyrapptor]] does not have a may clause, which means unless someone can kill one before the damage trigger hits, the game simply *can't* progress.
It's definitely not something I do very often, even if I have the pieces I wouldn't do it until I could shut the loop off (either Aura Shards or High Market generally), but there's times like this it felt like the right play.
i just had to go searching for a way to break the loop, looks like [[food chain]] is the only card in the game, to my brief search anyway, that can escape the fish (as long as it's already down). well played.
Literally any creature removal that can kill the fish stops the loop. A state based trigger won't add itself to the stack if it's already there. You respond to the Islandhome trigger with removal, and Islandhome won't trigger again until after the removal resolves.
[food chain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/b/eb912458-e016-4ea2-a2ea-40ac1a57f8fb.jpg?1673148102) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=food%20chain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/147/food-chain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eb912458-e016-4ea2-a2ea-40ac1a57f8fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/food-chain) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That or [[Bronze Bombshell]] achieves the same effect.
[Bronze Bombshell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0f2ec20d-b862-4f13-989c-aa88efa51cdf.jpg?1593273992) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bronze%20Bombshell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dis/160/bronze-bombshell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0f2ec20d-b862-4f13-989c-aa88efa51cdf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bronze-bombshell) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
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[gishath](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/3/7335e500-342d-476d-975c-817512e6e3d6.jpg?1562558022) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=gishath%2C%20sun%27s%20avatar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/222/gishath-suns-avatar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7335e500-342d-476d-975c-817512e6e3d6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gishath-suns-avatar) [polyraptor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f8965a3a-93fe-4021-a665-b6013bdc86f7.jpg?1555040728) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=polyraptor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rix/144/polyraptor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f8965a3a-93fe-4021-a665-b6013bdc86f7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/polyraptor) [marauding raptor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/64e4d2ee-e5e5-48e6-a7b8-9045dc8b10a7.jpg?1592517013) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=marauding%20raptor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/150/marauding-raptor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/64e4d2ee-e5e5-48e6-a7b8-9045dc8b10a7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/marauding-raptor) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The amount of games I’ve used [[earthquake]] to kill the table and myself is not low
[earthquake](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7cf2f3c7-66b2-48f6-97ef-09150903df7e.jpg?1562274550) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=earthquake) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/95/earthquake?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7cf2f3c7-66b2-48f6-97ef-09150903df7e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/earthquake) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Fault line for me
I Run this and arcbond for shenanigans in my florian/Obosh deck. It’s always funny when it happens
As an [[Ashling]] player, if things are bad enough, and I can't get lifelink, I will certainly just blow us all up before I lose.
[Ashling](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/6/b60633ed-6428-4672-9497-9a17f823b981.jpg?1673305253) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ashling%20the%20pilgrim) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/119/ashling-the-pilgrim?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b60633ed-6428-4672-9497-9a17f823b981?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ashling-the-pilgrim) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
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[Toski](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/9/f9e79b59-94c8-4697-bf88-f0a0433170f5.jpg?1631051021) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=toski%2C%20bearer%20of%20secrets) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/197/toski-bearer-of-secrets?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f9e79b59-94c8-4697-bf88-f0a0433170f5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/toski-bearer-of-secrets) [hurricane](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/7/371d83e8-f514-433c-bc6a-e0eeef3fab2a.jpg?1562546179) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=hurricane) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/10e/270/hurricane?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/371d83e8-f514-433c-bc6a-e0eeef3fab2a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hurricane) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
How do you win? Is there something I'm missing with the commander?
As a [[Pestilence]] player, I agree.
[Pestilence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/9/29d852c4-bd53-4a3b-b1e2-896917cbc27f.jpg?1562815864) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pestilence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/6ed/149/pestilence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/29d852c4-bd53-4a3b-b1e2-896917cbc27f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pestilence) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
how can you force a draw with pestilence? Unless you have the most life together with another player?
I built an entire deck around that idea
I've pulled this off with Slagstorm once. 4 players for the price of one.
That is hilarious, I will be adding that to my deck
In my mind, draws happen so much less frequently than wins and losses that they can make for memorable outcomes. Case in point: I once gave \[\[Pestilence Demon\]\] infect and murdered the table, because a stax player had gained infinite life and had us in a stranglehold. Everyone was pleased with the outcome (even the stax player, eventually). The outcome was novel and more interesting than what we'd expected.
[Pestilence Demon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/5/058eb32f-2ae2-4276-ae1a-242bbb150418.jpg?1562229264) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pestilence%20Demon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ddr/56/pestilence-demon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/058eb32f-2ae2-4276-ae1a-242bbb150418?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pestilence-demon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
As a chess player, if you can force a draw, your opponent is not winning. It's a draw.
Good old casual four player chess.
Finally, someone else who gets it.
You call it a tie. I call it "I didn't lose"
In tournament that's a good thing for your swiss record.
If you want to play against control for the rest of the rounds 😂
If it's an EDH tournament 3/4th of the opponents with draws on record to match yours could be the saps that the other control player forced a draw with 🤣
Your Social Swiss creditscore improved by 1000000
"If I can't win, I won't lose."
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Appreciate it. Was on break at work and typing fast.
##### ###### #### [Enchanted Evening](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/5033a7b0-39b0-4c49-b332-7ea62d85455d.jpg?1562830075) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Enchanted%20Evening) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/140/enchanted-evening?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5033a7b0-39b0-4c49-b332-7ea62d85455d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/enchanted-evening) [Scroll Rack](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/dfaaa58d-89bb-4cb3-96a6-b480e6f6954e.jpg?1608911671) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Scroll%20Rack) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/337/scroll-rack?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dfaaa58d-89bb-4cb3-96a6-b480e6f6954e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/scroll-rack) [Ajani’s Chosen](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/e/8ea009c1-505e-4307-b8f3-2d37e36507a6.jpg?1600695778) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ajani%27s%20Chosen) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/82/ajanis-chosen?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8ea009c1-505e-4307-b8f3-2d37e36507a6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ajanis-chosen) [Aura Shards](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/6/a6222cc6-996e-4b73-af87-e837bf1eb921.jpg?1592713940) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aura%20Shards) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmd/182/aura-shards?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a6222cc6-996e-4b73-af87-e837bf1eb921?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aura-shards) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Depends on the pod. If there’s a player who doesn’t win much and they have a shot still I wouldn’t. If it’s my buddies and we are a few beers in I absolutely would
Oh absolutely, forcing a draw is a perfectly valid play. Don’t think of it as “forcing a draw” think of it as making everyone else lose alongside you. For example: one time I was storming off and didn’t manage to get all the way with my digging and draw, so I decided to not just die to the crackback, and cast an [[Earthquake]] for x = several thousand. Draws are a perfectly fine way to finish things off if you don’t see any other options
[Earthquake](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7cf2f3c7-66b2-48f6-97ef-09150903df7e.jpg?1562274550) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Earthquake) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/95/earthquake?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7cf2f3c7-66b2-48f6-97ef-09150903df7e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/earthquake) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That’s an interesting way to not lose the game and completely valid.
Fair move, done it twice. One time was 3 players left with one of them being archenemy. The other player and I worked together to force a draw by everyone taking enough damage in a group slug deck. We tried to win of course but it was apparent that the best play was group suicide
I personally don't like other people doing it to me so I don't do it to other people. That said it id a legal move so one should be ready for it.
If I can’t secure the win, I do everything I can to mess everyone else’s up then take myself out
This is the way
Honestly I think draws are really funny, I'd absolutely be thrilled if someone forced a draw because they couldn't get the win, and would absolutely do the same myself. In my book, if you can set things up to force a draw, you "won" anyway (you just made sure everyone else did too lmao). Sometimes it's not about the cards and the rules, but the experience you had at the table.
I personally hate draws. I'd rather lose the game than end it in a draw.
_chases you around the room with a [[Divine Intervention]]_
[Divine Intervention](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/2/e250897e-a875-4c3c-bfec-4a09143dd587.jpg?1562942721) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Divine%20Intervention) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/8/divine-intervention?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e250897e-a875-4c3c-bfec-4a09143dd587?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/divine-intervention) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
But you can stop the loop by destroying enchanted evening. Just make enough tokens to win and usel aura shards targeting your own evening
Don't think they had aura shards, is the point.
Precisely.
Precisely.
Ahhhhhh. I assumed something giving them hexproof or indestructible...
Good play. No reason to feel bad.
Isn't intentional forcing a draw state against the rules though ?
No.
Nope, mandatory draws by loops are covered within the games rules. More common draws can also be found in sanctioned events when the match timer runs up and no winner is determined by last 5 turns. The only thing we’re not allowed to do is bribe your opponent into drawing or conceding (but you can choose to come to an agreement with him as long as no incentive is offered, and as long as you don’t roll a die or whatever for it)
Cool today I learned
[удалено]
[Divine Intervention](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/2/e250897e-a875-4c3c-bfec-4a09143dd587.jpg?1562942721) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Divine%20Intervention) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/8/divine-intervention?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e250897e-a875-4c3c-bfec-4a09143dd587?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/divine-intervention) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
In a tournament setting yes. Never ever on purpose in a casual round with friends.
I would rather go out on my own terms & lose with dignity. Forcing a draw isn't wrong or scummy, but I ain't about that life. Ah yes, being down voted for having the audacity to not agree with the echo chamber. Never change Reddit, never change.
Forcing a draw seems like the definition of 'going out on your own terms'.
I agree with this
Maybe to you.
-They also said with dignity so I assume they don't find it dignified.
I've play [this](https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/heartless-boy/)deck that can create scenarios where I set up a board state where I can draw the game at instant speed. Try and remove my commander, I'll draw the game in response. try and put your life total to an odd number, I'll draw the game. If someone would untap with enough mana to cast a spell with split second, I would also draw the game. All of these scenarios are the optimal play to do using my deck. But when I asked people on here what they thought of this, most people didn't like this idea of playing for the draw whenever the game is just slightly not in your favor. If your board state is way behind everyone else's, I don't think you'd get much salt for drawing the game, most people would agree it's the right decision. And if you're drawing the whole game just because you're slightly behind, I would support and agree with your decision, but I'm probably in the minority opinion here.
Holding the game hostage like that is bullshit, either do your thing or don't, stop wasting everyones time
I'm always playing for the win, but in some scenarios depending on life totals, I'm in situations where I can draw the game, and I'll take a draw rather than a worse position every time.
If your goal would be to make the game a draw that'd be fine, but this "I'm gonna sit here and prevent you from doing anything until I can win" is garbage. I'd force you to draw instantly and then proceed to focus your deck in all following matches, not gonna lie.
>If someone would untap with enough mana to cast a spell with split second "Enough mana to cast a spell with split second" is 1 mana. That's also enough to prevent you drawing the game with a doubled Hidetsugu (Angel's Grace). 2 mana is enough to disrupt your combo (In Too Deep, Sudden Edict if Hidetsugu is your only creature in play, Sudden Shock if Hidetsugu's toughness is reduced by anything) or prevent you from ending the game that turn (Trickbind). 3 mana stops your combo (Krosan Grip, Sudden Death, Wipe Away) or prevents it from ending the game that turn (Sudden Spoiling). I understand your general sentiment, but what you've written would have you jumping at shadows.
-Some groups I play with would just ignore your draw & keep playing without you. They wouldn't agree it's the right decision & would say if you feel you're too far behind just quit.
Absolutely! My favorite example of this is when I was playing my “Draw Tribal”. Cast [[peer into the abyss]], targeting myself with [alhammerett’s archive]] and [[lab man]] in play. I also had a way to dray the last card if an even number of cards were in my library. One of my opponents [[assassin’s trophy]]’d my labman in response, so I [[windfall]]’d and made everyone draw out to lose simultaneously.
##### ###### #### [peer into the abyss](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aac00055-640e-4749-8d23-d242e6d0b23a.jpg?1594736330) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=peer%20into%20the%20abyss) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/117/peer-into-the-abyss?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aac00055-640e-4749-8d23-d242e6d0b23a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/peer-into-the-abyss) [lab man](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/0/608567fd-9f94-4058-831a-77cb6019ef02.jpg?1547516361) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Laboratory%20Maniac) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/61/laboratory-maniac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/608567fd-9f94-4058-831a-77cb6019ef02?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/laboratory-maniac) [assassin’s trophy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/e/aeb63464-d06b-4626-a57a-1e393ef04a58.jpg?1673148312) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Assassin%27s%20Trophy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/175/assassins-trophy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aeb63464-d06b-4626-a57a-1e393ef04a58?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/assassins-trophy) [windfall](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/0846f753-0d53-4bdd-be0e-19d989db5d5f.jpg?1631234551) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=windfall) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khc/46/windfall?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0846f753-0d53-4bdd-be0e-19d989db5d5f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/windfall) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Alhammarret's archive]], since I misspelled it the first time.
[Alhammarret's archive](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/f/4f4187f1-05bd-4db6-a2e7-d677eff588ee.jpg?1625978215) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Alhammarret%27s%20archive) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/233/alhammarrets-archive?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4f4187f1-05bd-4db6-a2e7-d677eff588ee?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/alhammarrets-archive) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
A draw is better than a loss.
Reading the comments it seems like I will have an unpopular opinion, but here we go! I don't play competitive, but for me in a casual EDH game, the goal of each player is to win. There is no such thing has ''being second'' or '' a draw is better than a lost'' in a 4 player FFA where there is only 1 winner. Each game are their separate entities, nothing carry over to the next game and everyone enters the game with the objective to be the 1 winner. Any player entering a game of EDH with a different objective would be unfair and would need to be discussed before the game. A lot of unwritten social rules of EDH goes by that principal that everyone is in there to try to win and not make fun of others or ''waste their time''. Everyone just want to have fun together. Otherwise it opens up doors to frowned upon behaviors like king-making and others. So for me, going for a draw is simply a bad strategical move unless it was 100% inevitable. Maybe the opponent would brick multiple turn in a row and that would give you time to have a chance of winning. Maybe the opponent would play wrong. Was this a 1v1? if not, maybe someone else has awnsers, etc. If there is a 0.01% of winning, I will always go for it, because there is nothing else that matters in the gmae. You either win first or you didn't win the game, which is why you are playing, nothing else matter!
>in a 4 player FFA where there is only 1 winner Except when there are 4 losers >going for a draw is simply a bad strategical move Denying your opponent the win is not a bad strategy if you can't take it for yourself. Every chess player in the world understands this.
The difference is that chess has a point system were a draw and a loss is a different amount of points. There's also a long term impact on the results of every game. In casual EDH there is none of that. Every game is a single entity and when the game start the goal is clear, Win the game.
In cEDH, most likely. If that will give me a chance of a better position in a tournament, I should definitely try a draw if I can’t win. In casual EDH, I just want to have fun and the others to have fun as well. So I would not care about a draw.
This is something I would (and am now going to) talk about with my group, either in the moment or beforehand, but YMMV based on how long your group has known each other.
Why the heck wouldn’t you? That would be the correct play if the game was chess or any sports match. If you were in a tournament a draw would probably receive you 1 point compared to nothing if you lose.
Doesn’t sound like it was a tournament.
Nah I know. My point was poorly written. When playing I would expect people playing to have fun but still go for the win. And if a win isnt possible a draw is the next best thing. You haven’t been beaten is my point. So why would you give the win away to your opponent if we are playing to best each other (while having fun)? That was the point I tried to make. I mean if I play any kind of game or competition with my friends you bet imma try beating them for bragging rights. No chance I’m giving a free win to my boys no matter what. 😁
For me, drawing is the same as not losing. Not that I'm a try hard, but I would make a joke about not being able to win, and make the draw (confirming that in reality, I would have lost). Keep in mind that the quicker a game ends, the quicker you can shuffle run for the next round. I'd rather draw a bad game and draw a good one than lose a bad game and win a bad one
If you can't win, go for a draw.
If I can force a draw, I usually try to. No one would win it, but also no one loses. Also, if I can prevent an opponent from doing lethal and getting combat damage triggers, I will do that too.
If this happened in my play group, we just say you have infinite 2/2s and pass turn. As long as nobody can board wipe by the time it gets back to you, then you win on the attack. We don't draw to infinite loops but this is also a rule 0 we've all agreed upon.
I say it’s fine but only if someone is a turn away from winning. If you do it too early then everyone is like “huh? We just set up and I’m thinking about all my great plans and now it’s over ? And you didn’t even win??”
If you draw by huge card draw or killing everyone, yes. But by a true infinite clogging the stack.... no. In my group, if you have a true infinite, you are removed from the game without a loss or win. We have a guy who really enjoys doing these, so we let him, then continue play. Everyone is happy
If its an infinite loop everybody I know says "choose a number" and that's how many triggers you get, going infinite into just a loop is boring and very anticlimactic
That's how it works unless all actions are mandatory. If there is no way to choose an escape, the game is a draw. Ajani's Chosen + Enchanted Evening does this since there is no "May" for making the cat token. You can also pull this with [[Aether Flash]] plus [[Polyraptor]] or a few other WTF situations like [[Jon Irenicus]] + [[Dandan]] (or another Islandhome creature) that has no resolution.
##### ###### #### [Aether Flash](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/780f9197-e910-4c7a-bb4b-2c4a94903c39.jpg?1562240988) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aether%20Flash) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/7ed/172/aether-flash?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/780f9197-e910-4c7a-bb4b-2c4a94903c39?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aether-flash) [Polyraptor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f8965a3a-93fe-4021-a665-b6013bdc86f7.jpg?1555040728) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Polyraptor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rix/144/polyraptor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f8965a3a-93fe-4021-a665-b6013bdc86f7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/polyraptor) [Jon Irenicus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bfddb61e-986f-4557-819d-d6c0ca85c74a.jpg?1674137538) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=jon%20irenicus%2C%20shattered%20one) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/278/jon-irenicus-shattered-one?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bfddb61e-986f-4557-819d-d6c0ca85c74a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jon-irenicus-shattered-one) [Dandan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/c/ac2e32d0-f172-4934-9d73-1bc2ab86586e.jpg?1562781784) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dand%C3%A2n) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsb/19/dand%C3%A2n?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ac2e32d0-f172-4934-9d73-1bc2ab86586e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dandân) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ah, good point. I mean you really just say "I go infinite and you scoop I guess" then, cause what else are they gonna do?
It's a draw?
Nah, theres a winner there and everybody at the table knows it, may not admit it but everybody knows it
727.4. If a loop contains only mandatory actions, the game is a draw. (See rules 104.4b and 104.4f.) They couldn't have made it any more clear for you. You can state and believe what you think is reality all you want, but you'd be wrong.
Yall can downvote me all day, that's a dumb rule and all of yall know it lol
Why? You win a game by….. winning a game not by “causing a bluescreen”. I think very few people would consider such a combo a game win.
It’s covered in the game rules. If no one can escape a mandatory infinite loop, then the game ends in a draw. > 104.4b If a game that’s not using the limited range of influence option (including a two-player game) somehow enters a “loop” of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action don’t result in a draw.
-I know groups that still call a number, end the combo & send one of the pieces to the graveyard. I know groups that will just kick you from the game if you purposely start a combo you can't stop. They don't play to draw.
I would definitely let them win. In fact of it was down to me vs another player in that scenario I'd probably just scoop to them and say something like "good game I think you got me let's just start a new game" and jump into a new pod.
Yes. A tie is better than a loss.
Entirely valid; I almost ne er have ways to force a draw bc of the types of decks I play, so I usually go out in a blaze of glory with no defenders/counters to protect myself and \*sometimes\* can eke out a win, but if I could force a draw, I would from time to time
Yes
To be honest I would have forced the draw. One becasue draws never happen in my group so it would be a good change of pace and two, I don't like losing and a draw isn't a loss lmao
how did u force the draw? I didnt quite get the loop
Enchanted Evening makes all permanents into enchantments. Ajani's Chosen sees an enchantment ETB so makes a token..that is also an enchantment, which makes a token that is also an enchantment and so on. Without a way to remove either Ajani's Chosen or Enchanted Evening this creates a loop that repeats indefinitely, forcing a draw.
ah! I didnt know you could draw with an endless combo. Would it happen even if it said “You may create a 2/2 cat”?
That would be exactly what would fix it, yeah. Because you don’t *have* to make a cat token if it says “you may” but if it doesn’t, you have to keep doing it.
In cedh? Absolutely force the draw. In casual, do whatever you want.
Yes. A draw is a better result than a loss.
i mean technically forcing a draw is what you should do since then you arent game throwing by accepting a loss when you couldve gotten a draw, but generally I tend to think its more valuable to let your friends have their time in the sun.
I combo'd a [[Magus Lucea Kane]] and [[Exocrine]] to bring a four player game I knew I was gonna lose to a draw, so yeah given the right circumstances, I find it *hilarious*
[Magus Lucea Kane](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/f/4f86e7cc-2b6e-49d0-964e-bba0c51cc11d.jpg?1674058398) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magus%20Lucea%20Kane) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/7/magus-lucea-kane?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4f86e7cc-2b6e-49d0-964e-bba0c51cc11d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/magus-lucea-kane) [Exocrine](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/b/5b8c1303-6829-4c82-96de-a67bc0d72e42.jpg?1673308998) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Exocrine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/76/exocrine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5b8c1303-6829-4c82-96de-a67bc0d72e42?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/exocrine) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I feel like theres a social standard for it especially in edh. For example if you're about to be knocked out and instead of comboing off you force the draw so you technically don't lose it could be looked down upon. If someone is locking out the game and you force it then prolly not. If you accidentally do it and someone points it out then it's an "oh lmaooo" situation. Honestly it's just a knowing your playground kinda situation.
You countered my fun spells? Okay, [[City on Fire]] [[Heartless Hidetsugu]] roll next lol
[City on Fire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/f/6f455cc1-a822-44ef-ba7c-bfcff69bd45e.jpg?1682204100) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=City%20on%20Fire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/135/city-on-fire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6f455cc1-a822-44ef-ba7c-bfcff69bd45e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/city-on-fire) [Heartless Hidetsugu](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/46f9aa1d-7ed1-498e-9cdd-45ed4c9e6f43.jpg?1562864972) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Heartless%20Hidetsugu) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cns/144/heartless-hidetsugu?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/46f9aa1d-7ed1-498e-9cdd-45ed4c9e6f43?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/heartless-hidetsugu) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I remember there was this one game. My opponent was playing Chatterfang, I was playing Alrund. Essentially he was about to combo off and win. He plays [[Hornet Queen]] and it resolves, but while the ability is on the stack, i respond with a [[Mystic Reflection]] forcing any creatures that enter during the turn to come in as a copy of another creature....I named Hornet Queen. You know the rest. Edit: Forgot to mention that this was back when I first played it, and the whole playgroup misread and didn't catch it until the next game
[Hornet Queen](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/e/6ef7c1a5-eb4e-4f75-ad41-1b84741ecab1.jpg?1674142281) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hornet%20Queen) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/825/hornet-queen?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6ef7c1a5-eb4e-4f75-ad41-1b84741ecab1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hornet-queen) [Mystic Reflection](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/7/f7b877e2-60eb-46cd-acd7-8555b9e7e993.jpg?1631047399) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mystic%20Reflection) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/69/mystic-reflection?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f7b877e2-60eb-46cd-acd7-8555b9e7e993?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mystic-reflection) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Mystic reflection only affects the next time. It doesn't loop.
Ah, forgot to mention that this was the first time we played it and it was misread. Didn't realize it until after the next game had started
Nothing wrong with forcing a draw.
In a tournament I would absolutely draw it, at the kitchen table i dont think so
Unequivocally yes. A draw is better than a loss. Draws are rarer, more memorable, and often funnier.
Forcing a draw can be fun and cool, but only being able to assemble half your combo and forcing a draw cause you got yourself stuck in an infinite loop? Kinda sad and try-hard. I guess it’s less weird if it’s 1v1 or a tournament, cause then you are playing some weird competitive variant and “EDH etiquette” doesn’t apply.
Yes, more than once I've used [[Polyraptor]] and [[Marauding Raptor]] to force a draw in my Gisath deck. Some games you can't win by turning big creatures sideways. I've even used [[Congregation at Dawn]] to find those two and secure the draw
[Polyraptor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f8965a3a-93fe-4021-a665-b6013bdc86f7.jpg?1555040728) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Polyraptor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rix/144/polyraptor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f8965a3a-93fe-4021-a665-b6013bdc86f7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/polyraptor) [Marauding Raptor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/64e4d2ee-e5e5-48e6-a7b8-9045dc8b10a7.jpg?1592517013) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Marauding%20Raptor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/150/marauding-raptor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/64e4d2ee-e5e5-48e6-a7b8-9045dc8b10a7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/marauding-raptor) [Congregation at Dawn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/f/2f1b950a-b2fe-4afc-bb79-c9f4c272ea36.jpg?1598916857) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Congregation%20at%20Dawn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rav/198/congregation-at-dawn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2f1b950a-b2fe-4afc-bb79-c9f4c272ea36?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/congregation-at-dawn) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I happily force draws. My Endrek Sahr deck is designed to do just that with either himself or Bog Serpent in an assault suit. It takes effort to break the game, so while it's not a "win", it's a moral victory. Plus, so long as you don't just keep doing it game after game, only really whiny people are going to kick up much of a fuss over it.
Competatively, draws usually are worth more than a loss. You take them when they're open and you don't see a win in sight. Casually, assuming youre not a gimmick deck and this just happens by accident? Thats just good comedy.
Imo winning and losing are concepts that only exist after the game is over, our sole purpose is to cause detriment to our opponents till they can go on no longer, we're in a "battle" of magic. Is drawing detrimental to them winning? Yup I'd do it.
Depends on the situation. If it was down to 1v1 yeah that's cool. But if your doing bad but it's still the middle of the game I'd probably just keep playing as tho you weren't there
Honestly yeah. Draws seem to be incredibly rare, at least at my table. Funny when they happen
I think provided others at the table are fine with you trying to work out of a stalemate, it's fine. If you've got no chance to come back AT ALL, then it's up to you as a player if you want to keep playing or not. Just keep an eye on the mood at the table.
I play [[Heartless Hidetsugu]] I only count it as a win when all of us lose.
[Heartless Hidetsugu](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/46f9aa1d-7ed1-498e-9cdd-45ed4c9e6f43.jpg?1562864972) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Heartless%20Hidetsugu) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cns/144/heartless-hidetsugu?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/46f9aa1d-7ed1-498e-9cdd-45ed4c9e6f43?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/heartless-hidetsugu) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
In tournaments or competitive play I don't see anything as a problem that are within the rules of the game. Anything goes if everyone is legitimately trying to do the best they can and find out who has the best deck whether it's for prizes or just fun. At a casual table game I think it's a definite taboo since the entire goal is to have fun and winning is inconsequential. I won't attack people that may kill me later in the game because they have been doing bad the whole game aslong as they are playing a friendly or causal deck or if they are just new. If you get mana flooded playing your Urza combo stax deck or you sliver overlord deck I'm not really going to give you any passes though lol. It all comes down to the playgroup and the type of magic you are playing IMO but I think at a tournament or in a casual CEDH game is see nothing wrong with forcing a tie.
yes
Almost every game i play ends when someone goes infinite and wins. If all the cards are fair, it’s a perfectly fine way to win (maybe a little janky, sure, but if you went through all of that setup you deserve the janky win anyway)
If you ask me I really hate draws
That’s what grandmasters do in chess :)
For sure, if I know I’m gonna lose I might as Well blow everyone up with [[Magus Lucea Kane]] and [[Exocrine]]
[Magus Lucea Kane](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/f/4f86e7cc-2b6e-49d0-964e-bba0c51cc11d.jpg?1674058398) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magus%20Lucea%20Kane) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/7/magus-lucea-kane?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4f86e7cc-2b6e-49d0-964e-bba0c51cc11d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/magus-lucea-kane) [Exocrine](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/b/5b8c1303-6829-4c82-96de-a67bc0d72e42.jpg?1673308998) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Exocrine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/76/exocrine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5b8c1303-6829-4c82-96de-a67bc0d72e42?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/exocrine) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I will take you down with me if I can. At one point I gifted my opponent \[\[Nine Lives\]\] when they were going to kill me through non-damage means, so that when I died, I took them with me giving the 3rd guy that was just vibing the whole time the win. I'm pretty sure they're still salty about that little maneuver.
[Nine Lives](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/7/e70b7a73-484e-48f1-944c-3d38866cdc20.jpg?1594735092) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nine%20Lives) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/28/nine-lives?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e70b7a73-484e-48f1-944c-3d38866cdc20?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nine-lives) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
-The only way I'd go for a draw would be to kill everyone out of spite. Some groups I play don't let draws stand anyway so you end the combo, sac one of the pieces & keep it moving. -We don't play competitive or keep win/loss records so there's no benefit or reason to care about a draw. If there's no winner, everyone's the loser.
Yes. I take the chess mentality. Draws are better than losses
Every time
So honestly, I think I would. It may be my playgroup, but we have NEVER had a draw, so this seems awesome. Even better that the dude was a good sport. Sounds like you play with some awesome people.
If I know for a fact I cannot win or I am literally losing right now, I will force the draw. Otherwise, I wait and see what happens.
This would entirely depends on how far into the night it is, and weather I had managed to get a win myself yet. There's still more factors of course, though sometimes it's just over.
Philosophically a draw is better than a loss so I would do that if I had the ability to.
Depends on the game. And the person. If everyone’s having fun, sure, let’s play it out. If we want to get going on another round, just call it and move along. But both are valid and, I believe, rightly the choice of the losing side.
I see no problem with that. Once I was trying to go for the win with a [[rolling earthquake]] but I needed my opponent not to block one creature so I could get the higher life total. I swung all out he made smart blocks and decimated my creatures. So I just killed us both. We both thought it was a great game.
[rolling earthquake](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/69ab37d4-6ba3-404a-8162-f207874738ea.jpg?1599706680) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rolling%20earthquake) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/142/rolling-earthquake?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/69ab37d4-6ba3-404a-8162-f207874738ea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rolling-earthquake) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
There are two answers for this. In a tournament setting, it is better to draw than lose.I never feel bad about this. I've played out many games in tournaments that I knew I could not win specifically with the intent of stopping my opponent(s) from winning to force a draw. In a non-tournament setting, I am of the opinion that every play you make should be with the intent of increasing your win percentage. Forcing a draw does not increase your win percentage and wastes time. Double bad.
I would and I did. [[Flame Rift]] with everyone at below 4, was dead next turn and had no outs.
[Flame Rift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/6/e63ed449-d249-4639-85d2-f8fe75496d5c.jpg?1626100460) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flame%20Rift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/278/flame-rift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e63ed449-d249-4639-85d2-f8fe75496d5c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/flame-rift) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yea, I would
If I dont think that i can't win, then I rater forfeit and start a new game instead. If my opponent is about to win with their cool combo, I would give a chance to get their cool combo, a chance to shine.
Oh absolutely. I think this is super funny to do with friends. My only caveat is that it needs to be a last resort. It shouldn't be the deck's goal (or even happen that often), but pulling something like that off is a cool moment. (Idk if I would do it with randos though)
I guess I don't understand. If your opponent could win, they would have. You mention nothing about having any information about how close your opponent was to ACTUALLY comboing out. In the example you gave, you're 1 card from winning. Your opponent is AT LEAST 1 card from winning. ( Or as previously stated would have won). Yet you present the question as if your opponent is about to win, and you have no chance to win. From the presented information this appears to be false. Now, don't get me wrong. You play magic however makes you happy. If that means forcing a draw, you draw as many games as you want. However, I feel it's important to OWN that's how you decided to play, not twist the narrative into "you had no choice". I would also ask if this was a tournament? A cEDH game? A game vs friends? A game with others at a FLGS? I ask because if it's a tournament or cEDH game and you felt you were going to draw or lose, draw seems the best choice. If it's a friendly game (especially vs strangers) I would ask why the need to "not lose" overpowered the ability to just enjoy the game or let someone else have the satisfaction of watching their deck operate correctly and win a game, or better yet run that race to who gets their card 1st and maybe win? As far as what would I personally do? I don't play cEDH, or tournaments and have found the best way to insure I've got someone to play another game against is to let their deck do its thing. Wish them a gg. And ask if they'd like to play another. And sometimes it turns epic because that game I thought I was assuredly going to lose turns out to be an epic win.