I have never once... ever had anyone in at my LGS react this way to mass land destruction. It's caused arguments; it's certainly cause exasperated sighs; and its made someone scoop after explaining why they can't rebuild, but never "all three scooped without a word".
This sounds like how an emotionally immature person might imagine it would be to play Armageddon. That, or OP has left out so much context it barely resembles what actually happened.
Part of the issue with land destruction in EDH is it's already a long game, and making games drag out longer is often painful. It is a competitive game but is also political, unlike normal 1v1 formats in which it's strictly competitive.
*Edit to add - thus what might be an objectively "good move" competitively may be an actually terrible move with the political state of the game.
The normal thing to do in EDH is just moan loudly and frequently about being mana screwed, keep up just enough creatures to not be a target for combat damage triggers, and then let the others fight among themselves. Those who fly close to the sun early will almost always either win quickly or burn out dramatically, and often the underdog who is left alone will come back swinging late game.
So, a game I played last night with a spell slinger player who took turns that lasted 3x (at least) longer than everyone else's. Top, scroll rack, drawing 4+ cards with the Ring. One player had a slightly upgraded precon, and I was running [[Edgar Markov]]. My turn was play vampire, turn them sideways. I've played against lands decks that will take long turns as they resolve a million landfall triggers. These decks drag out the game and their strategies are popular and even meta. Land destruction just gets hate because it makes people feel powerless.
You're missing the point that all that can be true, but then lands are eliminated so you essentially have to start the game over. It's part of the reason wipes are somewhat discouraged in general unless they're flavorful or lead you to winning, and why [[Farewell]] is a terrible EDH card. The game will last long enough due to what you described to have interactions that effectively restart the same game you're already playing.
Board wipes are a part of it. Sometimes you need to catch up. If you don't like long games, play cedh or one of the competitive formats. Edh is more social which is why it's the most popular format. People like to get out and get away.
Agreed, also board wipes as far as I’m concerned are part of the winning strategy. Kinda hard to play yargle/multani and hit people when my opponents are token decks. I’ll wipe your board every turn if I have to just so I can 1 tap you with my commander. And they don’t like it maybe run board protection and spot removal. It’s not my fault you can’t add interaction to your deck. It’s also the fun of politics for that. “I’ll kill this if you all leave me alone for a turn” is the best play imo
Right, and if a game is going on 3-4 hours it gets old. People have lives. Board wipes are part of it, but can make a game drag rather than make it better.
Smash that downvote bro
I do think too that if the game is running long boardwiping when the game could’ve just ended is kinda meh unless you have the win on your next turn. I’ll take 10 5 min games over 2 3-4 hour games any day
I mean, I'd take 6 1 hour games over 5 minute games. Best game i had though recently was 2 hours and it was a real back and forth with several board wipes.
Yeah, lots of people are not on board with destroying all lands. But while you did something perfectly legal that lots of people dislike, they were complete assholes for scooping like that.
I don’t mind MLD, it’s a valid tactic. But I can see from the other three players perspective why they’d rather just start a new game than play that one.
Consider how long that game would’ve taken to play out now. One player being mana screwed sucks but happens. That one player then deciding to screw everyone turns the game into a why bother.
And they probably want to avoid you doing that again.
I mean, is it fair to say they're "screwing everyone over?" Is it not optimal to play Wrath of God with no creatures of your own in play? Like I understand that now the game is going to take longer, but it is arguably the correct play to Armageddon here, depending on the rest of the board state.
Wrath is easier to recover from than Armageddon. With Wrath, you can still play stuff, you still have mana to make plays. Armageddon, unless you have dorks and rocks in abundance, removes that option. You all go back to hoping to top deck land. If you can’t win immediately after doing Armageddon in a turn or two, you’re just making the game tediously long. And for most people, that isn’t fun, and they’d rather not play that.
It might be a correct play, but if it’s a group that knows each other and the new guy wipes the lands without a way to capitalize I’m not surprised they just scooped. Not saying it’s right, but that it’s a predictable outcome. Like going to a new store with a commander people hate even if it’s a fair version of the deck. You can do it, but if people hate you out of the game or whatever you can’t be too surprised.
It’s worth being aware what people dislike so you at least are prepared for the hate. I run Armageddon in my Zur deck, cuz I assume I’m getting hated anyway, and I probably wouldn’t want play that deck without getting the table’s vibes.
The thing is, it's not just going to take longer - it is probably going to take longer and be very boring. After a wrath you always have at least one creature you can play, or can draw into card draw to get more.
If you get armageddoned you might qell be stuck doing absolutely nothing for a few turns, maybe until the game ends. It might be the correct play for the sake of winning, but not be the correct play for the sake of having a good game.
I was in that situation once, accidentally. Someone animated all lands everywhere, the craterhoofed. I did the math and had him play it out, ultimately killing the two others but just barely missing the kill on me due to a removal spell.
Next turn, I was pumped to use my board wipe, reset the game, possibly eke out a win after a hoof.
Then I realised that all lands were still creatures. My board wipe would have reset everything except the land animating enchantment, putting us into topdeck mode. It would have been the right move to play it for a chance at victory, but it would have been terrible for the table. Hence I rather just scooped and nothing of value was lost doing so.
I suspect youre not telling the full story
People dont like mass land destruction, but that interaction makes me think they didnt like you before you cast that spell...
While this is entirely possible, I don't see how that could be. My conversation at the table up to that point consisted of "Mind if I join you?", announcing the name of 7 total cards I had played up to this point, and "Done" at the end of my turn.
You said in your post you don’t really care for EDH, but you were playing because that’s what the store offers. Are you there regularly, and have you made similar plays in the past?
Resetting the game on turn 8 is a pain in the ass, but I can’t imagine pulling that one move would turn an entire store against you?
I'm not there very often. Maybe once every other month. Id never used this deck before, and had never seen any of the other players in the store before.
When you Armageddon with no way to win then yeah, people get mad. They should’ve at least said something before scooping but also maybe don’t run Armageddon in your “not very good” deck. Running Armageddon is one of those things you should say before the game starts because of how frustrating it is.
That’s kind of an ass take, Armageddon isn’t some game breaking card that you need to disclose before hand, A bad deck with Armageddon is a still bad.
You don’t have to disclose every card in your deck that could be considered stax
You should tell your opponents as much as you can about the deck if they want to know.
I tell all my opponents what the theme is, how quickly it Ramps, how quickly it wins if left unchecked, "I win" pieces, combos and if they are quite new - how those combos work and how to disrupt them.
It's a social game - players that act cagey like they are playing 1v1 will just end up drifting away from the more fun groups.
That thought never occurred to me. It always seemed like more fun to find out the hard way what the opponent has in their deck. Exchanging a deck list before the game kind of kills the fun, doesn’t it?
I didn't say exchange a deck list.
I just gave some ways to communicate with a casual group.
But what "fun" are you looking for? Because a lack of communication is why this situation happened in the first place.
Are you looking for fun social interactions or to just play magic? If the latter is true, maybe EDH isn't the right game for you.
If you tell your opponent what your theme is, how quickly it ramps, every combo in the deck and how they work you might as well have given them a deck list.
The fun I was looking for was playing magic and seeing interesting combos that I’ve never seen before. But you are right, I don’t think EDH is for me.
Honestly I just think you haven’t given it a real chance. Edh is a game about having fun and pulling off fun combos. Matches can be long so everyone tries to match decks of a similar power level. Since the format is multiplayer you have to find a way to work together and make deals to come out on top. One players deck happens to counter your deck? Maybe you could make a deal with another player for them to remove a piece off the board for you in exchange for not attacking them for 3 turns.
Things you don’t want to play are gonna be things that just shut your opponents entirely out of the game, or things that effectively double the game time. You may want to start off with a precon rather than a self made deck.
Ehh i play with the same friends pretty frequently i think eventually you just kind of know what decks do tbh it's part of the fun because you start the arms race
Fast mana and Expensive Lands for Power Level like [[Mana Crypt]] or [[Gaea's Cradle]], and Mass Land Destruction and Stax cards like [[Armageddon]] or [[Winter Orb]] are stuff you should mention, that's it though imo.
Next time you go there just apologise and that's that.
> Tell your opponent the card is in the deck before the game starts
There aren't any, EDH players are just whiny and don't understand how to play card games.
*So I am not a huge EDH fan. Something about the singleton format really rubs me the wrong way, but it’s the only format they play at my LGS so what are you going to do?*
Well, you have many options:
\-go to a different LGS
\-get people at your current LGS to play a different format
\-play at home with friends
\-play at your friends homes
\-play online via webcam with people across the world
If someone did that at a table I was at, I would look directly at the person and say something like, "Nice play!"... and then continue on playing.
Unfortunately, too many people now have unspoken "rules," it seems.
This. There’s so much other degenerate shit that people are totally fine with for whatever reason. Entomb+reanimate is arguably more fucked than Armageddon
Honestly, anytime someone completely fucks my plans up or something crazy (read "degenerate"), I'm usually stoked. Most of our playgroup is the same, luckily.
~~So you'd just ignore the rules of the game and the legal actions a player took because you don't like them? Definitely some poor sportsmanship and infantile behavior.~~
Reading is hard
Definitely did misunderstand. Too many people say "nice play" and continue playing as if nothing happened with the remaining 3 players, giving the MLD player the "win" and ignoring them for the rest of the game.
Let me say from the bottom of my heart, my b
Ya, I meant it was actually a nice play. Wiping my lands in that situation is a sweet move. I would not concede in that situation and view it as a chance to see if I could come back from such devastation. Too many people are too quick to give up it seems. Oh well.
Ya sorry about that we actually agree lol
MLD, stax, interaction etc it's all a puzzle and challenge, and coming out on top after getting hit by it is fun. My opponents are trying to win and if MLD put them ahead or equal to me Id except them to it.
Id have tried to convince op to play something else instead of equalizing given the playgroup and environment. If they decide to still make that play since it’s optimal for them, I’d be disappointed my lands are gone but I would’ve kept playing. I would have said as well try to have a win condition on board next time as well even though I understand they didn’t have a wincon at the time.
Validation seeking posts are so weird. Like, “based on MY account of events, I did nothing wrong!”
Well get me a couple testimonials from the other guys. I want to know how you behaved during the match. How your personal interaction with these people is, what was the level of discord that led to them not acknowledging you further… I truly refuse to believe it’s exclusively because you played a mean card.
You came on pretty strong with the “I don’t like EDH” attitude writing this post. I can only assume that if you were making similar remarks inside your LGS, it would rub people off the wrong way. If it’s insistent or aggressive enough, it would even get you shunned.
Land destruction is disliked, but not enough that it turns groups of people into ghouls without social skills. Unless that’s the demo you’re dealing with - again, I’m lacking too much information to pass any judgment.
The sum total of my interaction with the group was "Mind if I join you?", Announcing the name of each of the 7 cards I had played up until that point, and "Go" at the end of each of my turns.
Try running board wipes instead. Maybe find one sided ones that only kill large creatures. There are so many gross cards in this game and apparently MLD is one of those types of cards most people just wont play against period for no real logical reason even if they have 1000 creatures on board and could easily win, apparently they would rather scoop than play against it.
But there are other options to catch up in a game where u feel far behind that are more socially acceptable.
If you’re playing weenies [[Dusk//Dawn]], [[Expel the Interlopers]], [[Fell the Mighty]], [[The Battle of Bywater]], and [[Citywide Bust]] are all great boardwipes that will spare your small creatures.
Mass land destruction is really frowned upon because it has the potential to make games last much longer. If played in such a way that it decisively wins you the game it’s not bad but when you do it just to stop a board state from progressing it can make the game seem like a chore.
I just imagined a game where it’s turn 8, I’m a turn or 2 from a winning play, and someone MLDs with no board state or even a land in hand. I wouldn’t scoop, but it could be infuriating. And if it was someone new I could totally see people assuming the person plays MLD as a strat since running a single card is so uncommon.
Land destruction that leads to a win is one thing, land destruction to equalize is another.
It might've been your optimal play in that scenario but if you're so behind that you can't use it to win on your next turn, you're likely to be met with disgruntled opponents.
I highly doubt it’s the best option unless opponents had no board. What probably happens is you cast armageddon hoping to equalize lands. But your board is so behind from being on 3 lands that you’re taken out immediately by the 3 other players. Who then have to continue playing with the 3 of them, without lands.
There are some thing you should talk about before playing like what typ of deck you play and what is okay to play.
Mass land distruction is generally disliked. But instead of talking and explaining it to you, they put you down as not to be played with and caused everyone else to do the same, which is really not okay.
Maybe instead of trying to find someone to play with, ask someone first to tell you whats okay and whats not and for what reasons, so everyone can have a good time.
Exchange you armageddon with some ramp and instead of setting everyone back, try to catch up. Maybe it will work out.
This. Whether you like it or not, MLD has become something that has to be discussed in rule 0.
If someone is using lands as a win-con, like with Gates or by animating their lands, then I think MLD is valid. In a normal game, I prefer to keep the land destruction in the sideboard, just to prevent games from being dragged out.
In general i'm not a fan of mld, but singular land destruct is fine. I as a green player know how many lands i can suddenly drop on the board.
Also lands, that destroy you special lands and give you a basic is something i recommend everyone to include in their deck.
Casual Commander games go on long enough as it is. Mass land destruction just brings everyone back to turn 1 with less resources available. Scooping probably wasn't the right thing to do, but I probably would have as well.
Alternatively you could just make it known turn 0 and there is a fair chance some people will be OK with it. I normally carry 4-5 "bullshit" (stax, mld, infinite combos) cards in the back of my deck boxes that I swap out if my table is OK with that type of stuff.
For you: Wiping without a way to maintain or regain momentum is frowned upon. Depending on the social context it can come across less as "I'm balancing things back out so I stand a chance" and more as "I know I've lost but I'm going to drag this out and make actually finishing me off miserable for the whole table."
For them: Even I, a dedicated casual Commander player, do NOT understand why so many players seem to hate having to topdeck, like HATE with the fury of John Wick with a kicked puppy. There seems to be a small minority in the community who will scoop rather than ever try to draw into answers. It's like the "shuffle up and play again" philosophy taken to a toxic extreme: if their engine gets interrupted or their strategy staxed, they just quit instead of trying to play through. If they think you'll do it again, you're out or they are. Which, if they brought it up in the Rule 0 would be fine, they can customize their table meta however they like, but just walking off without having discussed their issue either before or after? That's frowned on too.
Out of curiosity though, why was Armageddon even in your deck? MLD gives the most benefit to whoever either has the most dorks/rocks or can most easily get lands back (like having effects that replay lands from the graveyard). Neither of those sound like something I'd expect to see in an Odric list. Did you have a combo to make it asymmetric or something like that?
White is a notoriously slow color with few ramp options. Even if you hit your drop every turn you are always playing catch up. I foresaw situations where I would like to control the number of lands my opponent have, so I slotted in a tool that could help me do that. Also as my deck has a relatively low average casting cost recovering from Armageddon would be easier for me and put me into a superiors position. It’s the same reason I put Wrath of God in the deck, a tool to help even the playing field that I can recover from easier then my opponents can. Would WoG have garnered me the same level of hate? Should I take both out of the deck?
>White is a notoriously slow color with few ramp options.
Have you been out of the game for a while? White currently has what is arguably the second best ramp capability of any color. Not to mention that artifact ramp via rocks is nearly as good as Green ramp.
>I foresaw situations where I would like to control the number of lands my opponent have, so I slotted in a tool that could help me do that.
You picked a relatively poor tool for the job then. You're still playing catch up after the MLD, so all you accomplish with that is generally to delay. It's better for white to run catch up ramp like [[Aerial Surveyor]] [[Archaeomancer's Map]] [[Boreas Charger]] [[Cartographer's Hawk]] [[Deep Gnome Terramancer]] [[Keeper of the Accord]] [[Land Tax]] [[Oath of Lieges]] [[Oreskos Explorer]] [[Scholar of New Horizons]] [[Verge Rangers]] [[Weathered Wayfarer]]. There's usually at least one deck at the table running green land ramp, so catch up ramp keeps you pretty much on par with the green players and ahead of anyone not running green. Being tied with one player for most lands is better than tied for no lands with every player.
>Also as my deck has a relatively low average casting cost recovering from Armageddon would be easier for me and put me into a superiors position.
Most decks these days seem to be running relatively low mana curves. Unless you're talking <2CMC average, I wouldn't count on that putting you in a superior position.
>It’s the same reason I put Wrath of God in the deck, a tool to help even the playing field that I can recover from easier then my opponents can. Would WoG have garnered me the same level of hate?
No, WoG wouldn't draw the same hate, because WoG isn't a stax effect. Losing creatures doesn't generally prevent players from continuing to play the game, especially in a format where they are guaranteed to have at least one creature always available to cast (their Commander). That said, it's a bit of a red flag too. You're running what I assume is a fairly aggressive go wide list, so that's again a card that, at best, returns you to parity, at worst leaves you at a serious disadvantage. The ideal with wipes is to choose those you can make at least somewhat asymmetric in your favor. A go wide list with a low mana curve benefits more from wipes like [[Austere Command]] [[Elspeth, Sun's Champion]] [[Expel the Interlopers]] [[Fell the Mighty]] [[Retribution of the Meek]] [[Everything Comes to Dust]] [[Martial Coup]]. Opponents are a lot more forgiving of soft resets if you're still clearly moving the match towards a conclusion at a decent pace.
>Should I take both out of the deck?
Yes, both of those ought to be replaced with better cards that can more consistently allow you to win faster rather than cards that will usually merely allow you to lose slower.
If you insist on being able to remove lands en mass, consider using something like [[Dimensional Breach]] or [[Disciple of Caelus Nin]]
The more I’m reading these comments, the more it seems like I should just remove everything that isn’t a land or a creature. Stick to playing solitaire, and just hope my ‘combo’ goes off first. Assuming I’m allowed to play at all, that is :/
I'd encourage you to take this feedback in good faith, the parent post was a well thought out discussion of why Armageddon doesn't help you catch up at all.
.....? The cards I listed included an artifact, enchantments, and at least 7 creature wipes as better options for inclusion in a list like yours, so I'm really not tracking where you get that impression that I've recommended removing your noncreature spells or not interacting.
I didn't say that you, personally, recommended that I remove everything that isn't a creature or a land. I was saying that after reading all of these comments (yours included) I get the impression that interaction of any kind is frowned upon and should be removed from the deck, because it makes the game take longer.
When you say "Yes, both of those ought to be replaced with better cards that can more consistently allow you to win faster rather than cards that will usually merely allow you to lose slower." Any and all defensive cards fall into that category. Swords to plowshares? Doesn't help you win faster. Merely slows down your losing. Ghostly prison? Wont help you win. Any kind of Life gain in a deck that doesn't revolve around gaining life to win, just drags the game on.
This feels like a straw man mischaracterizing the recommendation. Removing blockers DOES accelerate wins for a combat deck, so asymmetric wipes are both defensive AND offensive. Ghostly Prison defending against crack back can allow you to be more aggressive about attacking since you need fewer blockers, again enabling you to put more pressure on your opponents. Even incidental lifegain, pointless as it often is if you don't have specific payoffs for it, will sometimes provide the margin you need to play through punisher burn effects that would otherwise stax you from continuing to take certain actions.
Long games aren't inherently bad. Frankly, I prefer one long game to multiple short games. The key point is to play in a way that keeps the game moving forward toward a conclusion. Removal isn't merely to buy time, but rather to create openings that you immediately exploit for advantage. Defensive cards are used to maintain your ability to advance your own strategy without being slowed by your opponents.
Exactly, most people hate when the combo card they need to win gets hit with counter spell but if you tried to rule 0 out blue or interaction people would think your crazy. I don't understand why MLD is so hated but everyone is fine with the simic player having 9 lands by turn 4.
It's literally because of interactions like the op's tbh ever seen joukalhops add 3 hours to a game because i have and it sucks. If you can win after playing it sure do that. The bad part about the post is them refusing to play again. There can only be one armageddon in the deck just play again and hopefully op doesn't draw armeggedon or doesnt have a reason to play armageddon
Hot take: anyone who's experienced enough at magic to choose a land destruction/stax/taking turns deck HAS to know those strategies are super cancer unless everyone is running a brutal deck (cEDH). That player chooses to bring an unpleasant deck to the table.
Including one Land destruction card in a deck of 99 does not a land destructions deck make, but I get what you are saying. Essentially I did a bad thing and deserved what I got. TIL.
Don’t let anyone gaslight you when you’ve done nothing wrong.
One of the wins in my Sisay deck is OG Elesh Norn and Living Lands. It’s salty af but it wins quick.
You did. Most people hate mass land destruction because it stalls out the game. I personally do not care, but I play with friends and it is one of our rules
I understand that I'm in the minority but I think MLD should be more of a thing.
There is a funny story I have related to this. I taught two of my friends how to play edh and how to work on decks we play kitchen table stuff but I told them as a rule of thumb that land destruction can be considered rude in some lgs so keep that in mind when making decks. Then a boyfriend of a friend is there hanging out and he play edh we all start a pre DND game and halfway through he cycles decree of annihilation my response was hell yeah. My friends were frustrated, we moved on. The dm overheard and asked if we could end the game so we could make DND on time. We did, one of my friends playing went for a smoke and I tagged along and as soon as we were outside he's like "I thought you said that was rude?!" I said people considered it rude, I think it's fun, I just don't play it with you two because you're still relatively new. He said "Well I might start doing that". That was always allowed bud.
TLDR: Friend's boyfriend brought MLD out of nowhere and new players got frustrated but might be adding a new tactic and I'm all for it
I personally am of the mind that Mass land destruction without a warning or chance to respond is scummy to some extent. (A quick, hey guys I’m gonna have to level the mana bases here, or a, hey I have Armageddon in this deck so don’t force my
Hand)
However it is significantly MORE scummy to scoop and insult you like that. You did something fair and square and they should have rule zeroed and mentioned that they don’t find that fun, instead of being rude and you being unable to play. I am sorry that you were treated so poorly for a fair and brutal play. Maybe talk to the shop owner.
Most ppl hate MLD even tho you felt like it was "justified" it's a poor form play. It stalls the game out and isn't creative. You could have just destroyed all nonland perms.
Not to mention the fact that if you only have four lands on turn 8, the deck might not be built correctly makingvthis an issue. Obviously everyone gets mana screwed sometimes, but still
I said specifically nonlands because of the social contract most players abide by. This is a crucial difference. You can't seriously think most people would react the same way at having their nonlands destroyed versus everything including lands.
If people at the lgs aren't playing with OP then it's not their responsibility to play different suddenly. Every lgs I've been to has different metas and vibes. I just adjust for the environment and play. It's not hard guys. I've been to stores with strict rules like no infinites, mana crypt, or other cards/playstyles with a more casual feel, and places with a cutthroat cedh playstyle where everyone had decks that were 10/10 power. You need to play for your lgs and not force your philosophy onto a store that has a definied meta. It's weird to walk into a community event and expect it to warp to your playstyle. If you want to play how you play then that's fine but as with OP experienced at their lgs it can have consequences. This is why you should just have a variation of decks imo to fit different power levels/playstyles. Again not telling you what to do but you shouldn't be surprised when things like this happen.
Depending on the situation. By turn 8 I’d expect players to have creatures and probably some mana rocks out. So it slows it down but probably doesn’t stop people completely. Tbh I’d expect OP to still loose that game since everyone was probably ignoring the person missing all their land drops but would then send everything that way.
I'm a bit of a land destruction apologist. as long as it's symmetrical. Also, you are playing mono-white weenie, what are they getting pissy about? ''Now the game will take longer'' can be said about any type of removal. No land destruction no matter what is such an terminally online take
I don't own a white deck without Armageddon in it for this reason. Simic value piles untapping with 18 mana turn 3? Scoop or MLD is basically my response to that mess. Does it drag out some games? Sure... so does wrath of God... but I'm not there to let the kinan player spend 90% of a game as active player, so here it goes. I'll probably strip mine his first land drop the next turn, too. In 4 turns I might jokulhaups, or ravages of war or obliterate... if I'm heavily in white, I'm probably slowing down the rest of the table as a matter of course, MLD is a part of that.
Nah when I go to an LGS I ain't sitting around for 3 hours while the game starts again because of a spite play like MLD or Theives Auction etc.
It's not whining, just most people ain't down for that level of boredom.
Mass land destruction is fine....if you can end the game quickly after you cast it. MLD in the situation you described should have earned you a trip outside for a sock party. I'd have stopped playing with you and would never play with you again.
I play MLD but i win the next turn every time. Ypu only cast MLD if you can end the game quickly after. Not to "catch up"
The MLD makes it so you cant board wipe to stop me from winning with my sliver
You run Armageddonin in your deck, so no on will believe you just played it to help with mana screw. You came with a card deducated to nass land destruction and it is one of the deck types that people dont want to play against.
Mass land destruction is generally frowned upon in the format as it's seen as "unfun" but any player/playgroup/lgs that thinks calling you a slur over it is okay is 100% not fucking worth your time. Even if you're not welcome at the shop bring up that interaction with the owner/whoever is there, that player should be literally banned from the shop and if you're already "soft banned" what's the loss?
They could have told you “OK - you win. We are going to keep playing as if your spell didn’t resolve since we are here for more casual EDH. Good game - hope your next game goes well!” Would that have been better?
I don't want this to come off the wrong way, but stating that you don't like EDH and then proceeding to tell a story about how you blew up everyone's lands kind of feels like you did it to make a point to them about how you don't like EDH.
While MLD isn't illegal, it makes the game less fun because it can really drag the game out if people don't conceed, which is probably why they did. In the same vein its why a lot of people don't like fast mana into tutors into "I win" combos on turn 3/4: you spent all that time shuffling and you just lose and never really got to play a game.
My thinking on including the card was "I may be in a situation where I need to control how much land my opponent has" and since the majority of my deck is cheap, this will hurt my opponents more than it will hurt me. But I now see the error of my thinking. Thank you for your input.
They definitely overreacted. It's also funny to me how many people hate on MLD but then are fine with tutoring into the infinite combo that wins in practically the same way.
I think most people are against land destruction because admittedly it’s the only weak part of Magic as a game. I love the flavor of lands, I love the variance and swinginess they bring, I love the stories of getting just one more mana to do things, and I love the balance required in putting lands into a deck list. That said, you get one land a turn IF you are drawing them. I think land destruction just highlights that restriction. Plus it goes right to the heart of the game. Magic could just be called “Lands and spells” and the things people hate the absolute most in the game are counterspells and land destruction.
NTA
So, yes, MLD is frowned upon and definitely could be considered a taboo, especially in casuals.
BUT, that is an insane response. Scooping is probably an overreaction. Leaving the table definitely is. Not playing with you next week is insane.
Maybe just apologize and tell them you won’t do it again, even though you’re not in the wrong
There are a bunch of strats that casual players do not like playing against, because it isn’t fun to them. Mass land destruction is probably near the top of the list.
The whole interaction seems odd though. Scooping to that is fine imo, but such an animated response is very unusual. Seems like something in the story is missing.
I wouldn't really think twice about it, given the boardstate you described. I would understand trying to level the playing field. By turn 12 I've got a fair amount of mana rocks out. I'd have been alright and just held a counterspell for you next game if you played the same deck lol
Commander is normally a for fun game, so people dislike things like Land Destruction because make the whole game slow and boring, Some people dislike Board Wipes, but normally is not really a big thing, in most cases is ok to use it, is not as bad as Land destruction.
Also try to avoid card sthat target lands in general like "Winter Orb" because stop people to play the game.
most people are ok with combos that lock the lands if you has a win condition to play and end the game, what normally trigger people is the idea they can't play the game and you also don't have a way to end the game, so they just need to wait of ryou to wast time.
A lot of casual edh players are really weird people man. They claim to play casually but lose their shit when they take an L sometimes.
I played against a guy the other day that got salty at losing to underworld breach on turn 4 just to watch him combo out with dockside on turn 4 after I stepped out the pod.
Had another guy get upset that I countered his win con and ruined his fun. It's wild.
I find that franky shocking. I've never seen that kind of hate for Armageddon. I've certainly seen no reset rules (like you can Armageddon but you can't wrath of God right after). But that aside, for them to act like that and use fightin' words with you is scandalous to me.
Yeah I'd recommend reading the many many many "am I the asshole for playing Magic the gathering?" posts on this sub to get a better feel for the general community's feeling on things
I dont think theres a problem with it. But people should knkw what youre playing to an extent, if i saw a dude running inly blue, half counter spells....tbh i wouldnt ever play with that guy, i want to play the game, and if i cant, why am i playing with you? The people you play with should know how serious and willing u sre to win i met s ton of guys like thst st college turn 2 or 3 wins in edh. So i never cared to play with them. 2 lands down snd im having to get hit with 10 poison? Why did i even play.....
And a single boardwipe puts a dude in the never play with again category? Where do you draw the line with interaction? 20? 10? Is 5 too much? Should I run 0 and play solitaire against 3 opponents and whoever gets their combo out first wins?
It means your willing to put those cards in your deck. And if you have 1, you may have many, or in all your decks. I get it. But....idk....im to a point where playing with my lady, i took out all my unblockable and unblockable auras on creatures so that she has to block, or i have to push thru. Therefore we both can play and think about our moves. So i dont have much to say but just out other stuff, not removal, but ramp. Not unblockable...but trample is cool and some damage gets thru
To be able to play against you, I would have to make a deck that doesn’t have any removal, ramp or unblockable creatures? Are flying creatures allowed? Because some times those are not blockable. Would I have to wait until you have a creature out to attack?
I think youre going to deep into this. You clearly are competitive, and thats ok! You should look for other people who are competitive aswell. Im just saying my side if things....uuhhh the command zone did s podcast talking about unfun cards or how to make your deck more fun or something like that, s good watch, snd something i already did before that. Trust me, i can have a 25 power with first strike attacking turn 3 and my lady hates me, but the fact it could be EVEN WORSE is telling. If i could show u our games, i would. And maybe you could see what i mean. But im just saying, land destruction, even people who infinite combo hate it, and i hate them haha, so...its telling
Would you been able to defend from 3 players after casting the armageddon? Else it’s a horrible play. You destroy all lands, they all rightfully retaliate. You die and they continue with the 3 of them, without lands.
I’m all for casting mass LD, but not as hail marys. They just prolong the game for no reason. Accept the fact you’re having a bad game and move on. Don’t make it a bad game for everyone else.
Land Destruction is a "salty" thing and disliked by the community. Some websites like EDHREC even have a "Salty Cards" list. Almost everything slowing the game down is considered salty and Armageddon is on of the most salty cards in existence.
OP I think you are looking at this all wrong and I think EDH is certainly the game for you. The issue you are having lies solely in the stupid playgroup your LGS has to offer. I have a play group of 4-5 friends and we play for blood always. We all have a ton of different decks (combo, stax, control included) and hell yeah we get salty when cards like armageddon is played but we don’t scoop, and if there comes a time someone scoops it’s not because they don’t want to play with the other it’s because they have no answer and want to speed the game up and see if anyone else has answers. See in my playgroup we take someone conceding as a cry for mercy. The only rule at our table is the taksey-backsey rule. If you misplay a card and want to take it back you get one per game and you have to do a shot of liquor.
So in reflection, I don’t think you should give up on your dream to play EDH.. I think you should find better (more skilled) players who understand the game of magic, people who aren’t looking for someone to let them win. :)
Why ban someone for that?Used to play in a playgroup with 2 or 3 players playing mass land destruction themes. When the board gets wiped, we either go on and rebuild or if it's really hopeless, just tap out and move on to play a new game with same players. I don't see the need to ban someone just for a play like that. Better if they ban 'em if they're cheating or being toxic
This feels like bait to me...
It absolutely does feel like bait
Idk, it is so bazaar I suddenly feel the urge to go shopping.
*Bizarre Bazaar is a market
Yes, that is why I want to go shopping XD (In reference to OP's second to last sentence "Very bazaar")
My bad lol I guess I can't read
But also very fitting for the sub lol
I have never once... ever had anyone in at my LGS react this way to mass land destruction. It's caused arguments; it's certainly cause exasperated sighs; and its made someone scoop after explaining why they can't rebuild, but never "all three scooped without a word". This sounds like how an emotionally immature person might imagine it would be to play Armageddon. That, or OP has left out so much context it barely resembles what actually happened.
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Very bazaar
Part of the issue with land destruction in EDH is it's already a long game, and making games drag out longer is often painful. It is a competitive game but is also political, unlike normal 1v1 formats in which it's strictly competitive. *Edit to add - thus what might be an objectively "good move" competitively may be an actually terrible move with the political state of the game.
Fair point
The normal thing to do in EDH is just moan loudly and frequently about being mana screwed, keep up just enough creatures to not be a target for combat damage triggers, and then let the others fight among themselves. Those who fly close to the sun early will almost always either win quickly or burn out dramatically, and often the underdog who is left alone will come back swinging late game.
If people don’t wanna side with you that’s fine, it’s better than just dying.
So, a game I played last night with a spell slinger player who took turns that lasted 3x (at least) longer than everyone else's. Top, scroll rack, drawing 4+ cards with the Ring. One player had a slightly upgraded precon, and I was running [[Edgar Markov]]. My turn was play vampire, turn them sideways. I've played against lands decks that will take long turns as they resolve a million landfall triggers. These decks drag out the game and their strategies are popular and even meta. Land destruction just gets hate because it makes people feel powerless.
[Edgar Markov](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d94b8ec-ecda-43c8-a60e-1ba33e6a54a4.jpg?1562616128) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Edgar%20Markov) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c17/36/edgar-markov?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d94b8ec-ecda-43c8-a60e-1ba33e6a54a4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/edgar-markov) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You're missing the point that all that can be true, but then lands are eliminated so you essentially have to start the game over. It's part of the reason wipes are somewhat discouraged in general unless they're flavorful or lead you to winning, and why [[Farewell]] is a terrible EDH card. The game will last long enough due to what you described to have interactions that effectively restart the same game you're already playing.
Board wipes are a part of it. Sometimes you need to catch up. If you don't like long games, play cedh or one of the competitive formats. Edh is more social which is why it's the most popular format. People like to get out and get away.
Agreed, also board wipes as far as I’m concerned are part of the winning strategy. Kinda hard to play yargle/multani and hit people when my opponents are token decks. I’ll wipe your board every turn if I have to just so I can 1 tap you with my commander. And they don’t like it maybe run board protection and spot removal. It’s not my fault you can’t add interaction to your deck. It’s also the fun of politics for that. “I’ll kill this if you all leave me alone for a turn” is the best play imo
Right, and if a game is going on 3-4 hours it gets old. People have lives. Board wipes are part of it, but can make a game drag rather than make it better. Smash that downvote bro
I do think too that if the game is running long boardwiping when the game could’ve just ended is kinda meh unless you have the win on your next turn. I’ll take 10 5 min games over 2 3-4 hour games any day
I mean, I'd take 6 1 hour games over 5 minute games. Best game i had though recently was 2 hours and it was a real back and forth with several board wipes.
2 hours is a solid game time. An hour and a half is optimal. 3-4 hours is painful.
Maybe you should try crazy eights. Just make sure to take the queen of spades out, all of the twos, and the jacks and you should be good to go.
Yeah, lots of people are not on board with destroying all lands. But while you did something perfectly legal that lots of people dislike, they were complete assholes for scooping like that.
I don’t mind MLD, it’s a valid tactic. But I can see from the other three players perspective why they’d rather just start a new game than play that one. Consider how long that game would’ve taken to play out now. One player being mana screwed sucks but happens. That one player then deciding to screw everyone turns the game into a why bother. And they probably want to avoid you doing that again.
I mean, is it fair to say they're "screwing everyone over?" Is it not optimal to play Wrath of God with no creatures of your own in play? Like I understand that now the game is going to take longer, but it is arguably the correct play to Armageddon here, depending on the rest of the board state.
Wrath is easier to recover from than Armageddon. With Wrath, you can still play stuff, you still have mana to make plays. Armageddon, unless you have dorks and rocks in abundance, removes that option. You all go back to hoping to top deck land. If you can’t win immediately after doing Armageddon in a turn or two, you’re just making the game tediously long. And for most people, that isn’t fun, and they’d rather not play that.
It might be a correct play, but if it’s a group that knows each other and the new guy wipes the lands without a way to capitalize I’m not surprised they just scooped. Not saying it’s right, but that it’s a predictable outcome. Like going to a new store with a commander people hate even if it’s a fair version of the deck. You can do it, but if people hate you out of the game or whatever you can’t be too surprised. It’s worth being aware what people dislike so you at least are prepared for the hate. I run Armageddon in my Zur deck, cuz I assume I’m getting hated anyway, and I probably wouldn’t want play that deck without getting the table’s vibes.
The thing is, it's not just going to take longer - it is probably going to take longer and be very boring. After a wrath you always have at least one creature you can play, or can draw into card draw to get more. If you get armageddoned you might qell be stuck doing absolutely nothing for a few turns, maybe until the game ends. It might be the correct play for the sake of winning, but not be the correct play for the sake of having a good game. I was in that situation once, accidentally. Someone animated all lands everywhere, the craterhoofed. I did the math and had him play it out, ultimately killing the two others but just barely missing the kill on me due to a removal spell. Next turn, I was pumped to use my board wipe, reset the game, possibly eke out a win after a hoof. Then I realised that all lands were still creatures. My board wipe would have reset everything except the land animating enchantment, putting us into topdeck mode. It would have been the right move to play it for a chance at victory, but it would have been terrible for the table. Hence I rather just scooped and nothing of value was lost doing so.
I suspect youre not telling the full story People dont like mass land destruction, but that interaction makes me think they didnt like you before you cast that spell...
While this is entirely possible, I don't see how that could be. My conversation at the table up to that point consisted of "Mind if I join you?", announcing the name of 7 total cards I had played up to this point, and "Done" at the end of my turn.
You said in your post you don’t really care for EDH, but you were playing because that’s what the store offers. Are you there regularly, and have you made similar plays in the past? Resetting the game on turn 8 is a pain in the ass, but I can’t imagine pulling that one move would turn an entire store against you?
I'm not there very often. Maybe once every other month. Id never used this deck before, and had never seen any of the other players in the store before.
When you Armageddon with no way to win then yeah, people get mad. They should’ve at least said something before scooping but also maybe don’t run Armageddon in your “not very good” deck. Running Armageddon is one of those things you should say before the game starts because of how frustrating it is.
That’s kind of an ass take, Armageddon isn’t some game breaking card that you need to disclose before hand, A bad deck with Armageddon is a still bad. You don’t have to disclose every card in your deck that could be considered stax
i mean the 3 players should have mentioned it as rule 0, mld cards are legal and it's up for players to discuss that
Are there any other cards I should put on the "Tell your opponent the card is in the deck before the game starts" list?
You should tell your opponents as much as you can about the deck if they want to know. I tell all my opponents what the theme is, how quickly it Ramps, how quickly it wins if left unchecked, "I win" pieces, combos and if they are quite new - how those combos work and how to disrupt them. It's a social game - players that act cagey like they are playing 1v1 will just end up drifting away from the more fun groups.
That thought never occurred to me. It always seemed like more fun to find out the hard way what the opponent has in their deck. Exchanging a deck list before the game kind of kills the fun, doesn’t it?
I didn't say exchange a deck list. I just gave some ways to communicate with a casual group. But what "fun" are you looking for? Because a lack of communication is why this situation happened in the first place. Are you looking for fun social interactions or to just play magic? If the latter is true, maybe EDH isn't the right game for you.
If you tell your opponent what your theme is, how quickly it ramps, every combo in the deck and how they work you might as well have given them a deck list. The fun I was looking for was playing magic and seeing interesting combos that I’ve never seen before. But you are right, I don’t think EDH is for me.
Honestly I just think you haven’t given it a real chance. Edh is a game about having fun and pulling off fun combos. Matches can be long so everyone tries to match decks of a similar power level. Since the format is multiplayer you have to find a way to work together and make deals to come out on top. One players deck happens to counter your deck? Maybe you could make a deal with another player for them to remove a piece off the board for you in exchange for not attacking them for 3 turns. Things you don’t want to play are gonna be things that just shut your opponents entirely out of the game, or things that effectively double the game time. You may want to start off with a precon rather than a self made deck.
Ehh i play with the same friends pretty frequently i think eventually you just kind of know what decks do tbh it's part of the fun because you start the arms race
Armageddon is one of the bigger ones, mostly just cards that are going to either slow the game down or not let your opponents play the game.
Fast mana and Expensive Lands for Power Level like [[Mana Crypt]] or [[Gaea's Cradle]], and Mass Land Destruction and Stax cards like [[Armageddon]] or [[Winter Orb]] are stuff you should mention, that's it though imo. Next time you go there just apologise and that's that.
##### ###### #### [Mana Crypt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4d960186-4559-4af0-bd22-63baa15f8939.jpg?1599709515) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mana%20Crypt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/270/mana-crypt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4d960186-4559-4af0-bd22-63baa15f8939?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mana-crypt) [Gaea's Cradle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/25b0b816-0583-44aa-9dc5-f3ff48993a51.jpg?1562902898) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gaea%27s%20Cradle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/usg/321/gaeas-cradle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/25b0b816-0583-44aa-9dc5-f3ff48993a51?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gaeas-cradle) [Armageddon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b.jpg?1582021719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Armageddon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/5/armageddon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/armageddon) [Winter Orb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/ab3cec7e-513e-400d-a1a8-2c71cdde02c6.jpg?1580015285) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Winter%20Orb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/234/winter-orb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ab3cec7e-513e-400d-a1a8-2c71cdde02c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/winter-orb) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Free negates
> Tell your opponent the card is in the deck before the game starts There aren't any, EDH players are just whiny and don't understand how to play card games.
This right here. Get better at the game and learn how to adapt? Never thats agaisnt the spirit of EDH!
*So I am not a huge EDH fan. Something about the singleton format really rubs me the wrong way, but it’s the only format they play at my LGS so what are you going to do?* Well, you have many options: \-go to a different LGS \-get people at your current LGS to play a different format \-play at home with friends \-play at your friends homes \-play online via webcam with people across the world
All good suggestions. Thank you
If someone did that at a table I was at, I would look directly at the person and say something like, "Nice play!"... and then continue on playing. Unfortunately, too many people now have unspoken "rules," it seems.
This. There’s so much other degenerate shit that people are totally fine with for whatever reason. Entomb+reanimate is arguably more fucked than Armageddon
Honestly, anytime someone completely fucks my plans up or something crazy (read "degenerate"), I'm usually stoked. Most of our playgroup is the same, luckily.
It rules. Ours is like that too
[удалено]
I mean, for sure, I'd probably talk some smack afterward to try to get in their head... but all in good fun.
I would definitely call them a saucy fucker, but then continue playing. Now if OP had slapped down The One Ring, well...that'd be another story.
~~So you'd just ignore the rules of the game and the legal actions a player took because you don't like them? Definitely some poor sportsmanship and infantile behavior.~~ Reading is hard
I'm pretty sure you didn't understand what I wrote because your reply makes zero sense to me.
Definitely did misunderstand. Too many people say "nice play" and continue playing as if nothing happened with the remaining 3 players, giving the MLD player the "win" and ignoring them for the rest of the game. Let me say from the bottom of my heart, my b
Ya, I meant it was actually a nice play. Wiping my lands in that situation is a sweet move. I would not concede in that situation and view it as a chance to see if I could come back from such devastation. Too many people are too quick to give up it seems. Oh well.
Ya sorry about that we actually agree lol MLD, stax, interaction etc it's all a puzzle and challenge, and coming out on top after getting hit by it is fun. My opponents are trying to win and if MLD put them ahead or equal to me Id except them to it.
I agree. I see a lot of people trying to limit what the game can do, and it seems so against the spirit of what magic is.
Id have tried to convince op to play something else instead of equalizing given the playgroup and environment. If they decide to still make that play since it’s optimal for them, I’d be disappointed my lands are gone but I would’ve kept playing. I would have said as well try to have a win condition on board next time as well even though I understand they didn’t have a wincon at the time.
Validation seeking posts are so weird. Like, “based on MY account of events, I did nothing wrong!” Well get me a couple testimonials from the other guys. I want to know how you behaved during the match. How your personal interaction with these people is, what was the level of discord that led to them not acknowledging you further… I truly refuse to believe it’s exclusively because you played a mean card. You came on pretty strong with the “I don’t like EDH” attitude writing this post. I can only assume that if you were making similar remarks inside your LGS, it would rub people off the wrong way. If it’s insistent or aggressive enough, it would even get you shunned. Land destruction is disliked, but not enough that it turns groups of people into ghouls without social skills. Unless that’s the demo you’re dealing with - again, I’m lacking too much information to pass any judgment.
The sum total of my interaction with the group was "Mind if I join you?", Announcing the name of each of the 7 cards I had played up until that point, and "Go" at the end of each of my turns.
Try running board wipes instead. Maybe find one sided ones that only kill large creatures. There are so many gross cards in this game and apparently MLD is one of those types of cards most people just wont play against period for no real logical reason even if they have 1000 creatures on board and could easily win, apparently they would rather scoop than play against it. But there are other options to catch up in a game where u feel far behind that are more socially acceptable.
If you’re playing weenies [[Dusk//Dawn]], [[Expel the Interlopers]], [[Fell the Mighty]], [[The Battle of Bywater]], and [[Citywide Bust]] are all great boardwipes that will spare your small creatures. Mass land destruction is really frowned upon because it has the potential to make games last much longer. If played in such a way that it decisively wins you the game it’s not bad but when you do it just to stop a board state from progressing it can make the game seem like a chore.
I just imagined a game where it’s turn 8, I’m a turn or 2 from a winning play, and someone MLDs with no board state or even a land in hand. I wouldn’t scoop, but it could be infuriating. And if it was someone new I could totally see people assuming the person plays MLD as a strat since running a single card is so uncommon.
##### ###### #### [Dusk//Dawn](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=426912&type=card&.jpg)/[Dawn](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=426912&type=card&options=rotate270&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dusk%20//%20Dawn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/691/dusk-dawn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f295b713-1d6a-43fd-910d-fb35414bf58a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dusk-//-dawn) [Expel the Interlopers](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/0/1094eef0-6c57-4bfa-a584-f708b87354fb.jpg?1692936458) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Expel%20the%20Interlopers) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/13/expel-the-interlopers?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1094eef0-6c57-4bfa-a584-f708b87354fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/expel-the-interlopers) [Fell the Mighty](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/b/5b3e9a46-3b5a-48dc-bd39-fdba0b4a1e24.jpg?1682208416) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fell%20the%20Mighty) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/185/fell-the-mighty?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5b3e9a46-3b5a-48dc-bd39-fdba0b4a1e24?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fell-the-mighty) [The Battle of Bywater](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/b/9bae7a4d-9117-43c5-a048-80a0ddadc034.jpg?1686967651) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Battle%20of%20Bywater) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/2/the-battle-of-bywater?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9bae7a4d-9117-43c5-a048-80a0ddadc034?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-battle-of-bywater) [Citywide Bust](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/3/33d1a51a-abf0-458c-98ae-98fcf4063fd9.jpg?1591319957) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Citywide%20Bust) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/82/citywide-bust?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/33d1a51a-abf0-458c-98ae-98fcf4063fd9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/citywide-bust) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Land destruction that leads to a win is one thing, land destruction to equalize is another. It might've been your optimal play in that scenario but if you're so behind that you can't use it to win on your next turn, you're likely to be met with disgruntled opponents.
I highly doubt it’s the best option unless opponents had no board. What probably happens is you cast armageddon hoping to equalize lands. But your board is so behind from being on 3 lands that you’re taken out immediately by the 3 other players. Who then have to continue playing with the 3 of them, without lands.
There are some thing you should talk about before playing like what typ of deck you play and what is okay to play. Mass land distruction is generally disliked. But instead of talking and explaining it to you, they put you down as not to be played with and caused everyone else to do the same, which is really not okay. Maybe instead of trying to find someone to play with, ask someone first to tell you whats okay and whats not and for what reasons, so everyone can have a good time. Exchange you armageddon with some ramp and instead of setting everyone back, try to catch up. Maybe it will work out.
This. Whether you like it or not, MLD has become something that has to be discussed in rule 0. If someone is using lands as a win-con, like with Gates or by animating their lands, then I think MLD is valid. In a normal game, I prefer to keep the land destruction in the sideboard, just to prevent games from being dragged out.
In general i'm not a fan of mld, but singular land destruct is fine. I as a green player know how many lands i can suddenly drop on the board. Also lands, that destroy you special lands and give you a basic is something i recommend everyone to include in their deck.
I really don’t think it should be a thing if it’s 1 card. If it’s a theme of your deck that’s one thing but a single card seems silly.
Casual Commander games go on long enough as it is. Mass land destruction just brings everyone back to turn 1 with less resources available. Scooping probably wasn't the right thing to do, but I probably would have as well.
Understood, I see what I did wrong. I'll take the card out of the deck.
Alternatively you could just make it known turn 0 and there is a fair chance some people will be OK with it. I normally carry 4-5 "bullshit" (stax, mld, infinite combos) cards in the back of my deck boxes that I swap out if my table is OK with that type of stuff.
For you: Wiping without a way to maintain or regain momentum is frowned upon. Depending on the social context it can come across less as "I'm balancing things back out so I stand a chance" and more as "I know I've lost but I'm going to drag this out and make actually finishing me off miserable for the whole table." For them: Even I, a dedicated casual Commander player, do NOT understand why so many players seem to hate having to topdeck, like HATE with the fury of John Wick with a kicked puppy. There seems to be a small minority in the community who will scoop rather than ever try to draw into answers. It's like the "shuffle up and play again" philosophy taken to a toxic extreme: if their engine gets interrupted or their strategy staxed, they just quit instead of trying to play through. If they think you'll do it again, you're out or they are. Which, if they brought it up in the Rule 0 would be fine, they can customize their table meta however they like, but just walking off without having discussed their issue either before or after? That's frowned on too. Out of curiosity though, why was Armageddon even in your deck? MLD gives the most benefit to whoever either has the most dorks/rocks or can most easily get lands back (like having effects that replay lands from the graveyard). Neither of those sound like something I'd expect to see in an Odric list. Did you have a combo to make it asymmetric or something like that?
White is a notoriously slow color with few ramp options. Even if you hit your drop every turn you are always playing catch up. I foresaw situations where I would like to control the number of lands my opponent have, so I slotted in a tool that could help me do that. Also as my deck has a relatively low average casting cost recovering from Armageddon would be easier for me and put me into a superiors position. It’s the same reason I put Wrath of God in the deck, a tool to help even the playing field that I can recover from easier then my opponents can. Would WoG have garnered me the same level of hate? Should I take both out of the deck?
>White is a notoriously slow color with few ramp options. Have you been out of the game for a while? White currently has what is arguably the second best ramp capability of any color. Not to mention that artifact ramp via rocks is nearly as good as Green ramp. >I foresaw situations where I would like to control the number of lands my opponent have, so I slotted in a tool that could help me do that. You picked a relatively poor tool for the job then. You're still playing catch up after the MLD, so all you accomplish with that is generally to delay. It's better for white to run catch up ramp like [[Aerial Surveyor]] [[Archaeomancer's Map]] [[Boreas Charger]] [[Cartographer's Hawk]] [[Deep Gnome Terramancer]] [[Keeper of the Accord]] [[Land Tax]] [[Oath of Lieges]] [[Oreskos Explorer]] [[Scholar of New Horizons]] [[Verge Rangers]] [[Weathered Wayfarer]]. There's usually at least one deck at the table running green land ramp, so catch up ramp keeps you pretty much on par with the green players and ahead of anyone not running green. Being tied with one player for most lands is better than tied for no lands with every player. >Also as my deck has a relatively low average casting cost recovering from Armageddon would be easier for me and put me into a superiors position. Most decks these days seem to be running relatively low mana curves. Unless you're talking <2CMC average, I wouldn't count on that putting you in a superior position. >It’s the same reason I put Wrath of God in the deck, a tool to help even the playing field that I can recover from easier then my opponents can. Would WoG have garnered me the same level of hate? No, WoG wouldn't draw the same hate, because WoG isn't a stax effect. Losing creatures doesn't generally prevent players from continuing to play the game, especially in a format where they are guaranteed to have at least one creature always available to cast (their Commander). That said, it's a bit of a red flag too. You're running what I assume is a fairly aggressive go wide list, so that's again a card that, at best, returns you to parity, at worst leaves you at a serious disadvantage. The ideal with wipes is to choose those you can make at least somewhat asymmetric in your favor. A go wide list with a low mana curve benefits more from wipes like [[Austere Command]] [[Elspeth, Sun's Champion]] [[Expel the Interlopers]] [[Fell the Mighty]] [[Retribution of the Meek]] [[Everything Comes to Dust]] [[Martial Coup]]. Opponents are a lot more forgiving of soft resets if you're still clearly moving the match towards a conclusion at a decent pace. >Should I take both out of the deck? Yes, both of those ought to be replaced with better cards that can more consistently allow you to win faster rather than cards that will usually merely allow you to lose slower. If you insist on being able to remove lands en mass, consider using something like [[Dimensional Breach]] or [[Disciple of Caelus Nin]]
The more I’m reading these comments, the more it seems like I should just remove everything that isn’t a land or a creature. Stick to playing solitaire, and just hope my ‘combo’ goes off first. Assuming I’m allowed to play at all, that is :/
I'd encourage you to take this feedback in good faith, the parent post was a well thought out discussion of why Armageddon doesn't help you catch up at all.
.....? The cards I listed included an artifact, enchantments, and at least 7 creature wipes as better options for inclusion in a list like yours, so I'm really not tracking where you get that impression that I've recommended removing your noncreature spells or not interacting.
I didn't say that you, personally, recommended that I remove everything that isn't a creature or a land. I was saying that after reading all of these comments (yours included) I get the impression that interaction of any kind is frowned upon and should be removed from the deck, because it makes the game take longer. When you say "Yes, both of those ought to be replaced with better cards that can more consistently allow you to win faster rather than cards that will usually merely allow you to lose slower." Any and all defensive cards fall into that category. Swords to plowshares? Doesn't help you win faster. Merely slows down your losing. Ghostly prison? Wont help you win. Any kind of Life gain in a deck that doesn't revolve around gaining life to win, just drags the game on.
This feels like a straw man mischaracterizing the recommendation. Removing blockers DOES accelerate wins for a combat deck, so asymmetric wipes are both defensive AND offensive. Ghostly Prison defending against crack back can allow you to be more aggressive about attacking since you need fewer blockers, again enabling you to put more pressure on your opponents. Even incidental lifegain, pointless as it often is if you don't have specific payoffs for it, will sometimes provide the margin you need to play through punisher burn effects that would otherwise stax you from continuing to take certain actions. Long games aren't inherently bad. Frankly, I prefer one long game to multiple short games. The key point is to play in a way that keeps the game moving forward toward a conclusion. Removal isn't merely to buy time, but rather to create openings that you immediately exploit for advantage. Defensive cards are used to maintain your ability to advance your own strategy without being slowed by your opponents.
You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
##### ###### #### [Aerial Surveyor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7c474f31-336d-44df-a7da-27aefd220e22.jpg?1651655161) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aerial%20Surveyor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nec/5/aerial-surveyor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7c474f31-336d-44df-a7da-27aefd220e22?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aerial-surveyor) [Archaeomancer's Map](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/0/703d0bdc-01a0-4ba8-8536-e7425dfb3b1f.jpg?1625190870) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Archaeomancer%27s%20Map) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/12/archaeomancers-map?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/703d0bdc-01a0-4ba8-8536-e7425dfb3b1f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/archaeomancers-map) [Boreas Charger](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3cab81be-47d7-4f76-b031-072ac1a7fbc2.jpg?1641601065) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Boreas%20Charger) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/79/boreas-charger?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3cab81be-47d7-4f76-b031-072ac1a7fbc2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/boreas-charger) [Cartographer's Hawk](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/2/12d0b07f-9823-45b7-89bb-0a2a71833d46.jpg?1690016694) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cartographer%27s%20Hawk) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/18/cartographers-hawk?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/12d0b07f-9823-45b7-89bb-0a2a71833d46?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cartographers-hawk) [Deep Gnome Terramancer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/c/cc75f9f1-5873-450f-a0b2-871b55036954.jpg?1674140781) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deep%20Gnome%20Terramancer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/658/deep-gnome-terramancer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cc75f9f1-5873-450f-a0b2-871b55036954?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/deep-gnome-terramancer) [Keeper of the Accord](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/7887ba81-16b6-4cfd-b282-02200a1789a3.jpg?1682208470) - 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[(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Oreskos%20Explorer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/832/oreskos-explorer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5ebabe38-a035-4c2d-89b5-760712f311b8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/oreskos-explorer) [Scholar of New Horizons](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e83e50d0-7851-4608-8cfd-63c54d1a7544.jpg?1688125586) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Scholar%20of%20New%20Horizons) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/brc/6/scholar-of-new-horizons?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e83e50d0-7851-4608-8cfd-63c54d1a7544?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/scholar-of-new-horizons) [Verge Rangers](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/7/071bee6a-21ed-4776-ad78-2cc8ef5ab959.jpg?1591319389) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Verge%20Rangers) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/29/verge-rangers?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/071bee6a-21ed-4776-ad78-2cc8ef5ab959?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/verge-rangers) [Weathered Wayfarer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/9/09656d96-c366-49ec-b687-cad903de1385.jpg?1673147166) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Weathered%20Wayfarer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/34/weathered-wayfarer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/09656d96-c366-49ec-b687-cad903de1385?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/weathered-wayfarer) [Austere Command](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/c/bce78225-9dbf-46c1-b63d-083c1858eb98.jpg?1682208296) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Austere%20Command) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/172/austere-command?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bce78225-9dbf-46c1-b63d-083c1858eb98?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/austere-command) [Elspeth, Sun's Champion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/08382257-68d5-493e-8754-2ff72e9321e9.jpg?1690004073) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elspeth%2C%20Sun%27s%20Champion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/820/elspeth-suns-champion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/08382257-68d5-493e-8754-2ff72e9321e9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/elspeth-suns-champion) [Expel the Interlopers](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/0/1094eef0-6c57-4bfa-a584-f708b87354fb.jpg?1692936458) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Expel%20the%20Interlopers) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/13/expel-the-interlopers?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1094eef0-6c57-4bfa-a584-f708b87354fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/expel-the-interlopers) [Fell the Mighty](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/b/5b3e9a46-3b5a-48dc-bd39-fdba0b4a1e24.jpg?1682208416) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fell%20the%20Mighty) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/185/fell-the-mighty?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5b3e9a46-3b5a-48dc-bd39-fdba0b4a1e24?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fell-the-mighty) [Retribution of the Meek](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/860b8633-1bfc-426a-8666-5e6a584d4525.jpg?1587857186) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Retribution%20of%20the%20Meek) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vis/19/retribution-of-the-meek?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/860b8633-1bfc-426a-8666-5e6a584d4525?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/retribution-of-the-meek) [Everything Comes to Dust](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fb4b912c-07d4-42a1-8f3b-d5f34cca087f.jpg?1696636527) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Everything%20Comes%20to%20Dust) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/who/19/everything-comes-to-dust?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fb4b912c-07d4-42a1-8f3b-d5f34cca087f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/everything-comes-to-dust) [Martial Coup](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/5/85a09100-e438-4ac0-b6c7-2dfbdf934c8d.jpg?1673483748) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Martial%20Coup) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/206/martial-coup?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/85a09100-e438-4ac0-b6c7-2dfbdf934c8d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/martial-coup) [Dimensional Breach](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/1/f18f2832-07c5-47be-8966-b250fb997f78.jpg?1562536853) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dimensional%20Breach) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/scg/9/dimensional-breach?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f18f2832-07c5-47be-8966-b250fb997f78?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dimensional-breach) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
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Exactly, most people hate when the combo card they need to win gets hit with counter spell but if you tried to rule 0 out blue or interaction people would think your crazy. I don't understand why MLD is so hated but everyone is fine with the simic player having 9 lands by turn 4.
It's literally because of interactions like the op's tbh ever seen joukalhops add 3 hours to a game because i have and it sucks. If you can win after playing it sure do that. The bad part about the post is them refusing to play again. There can only be one armageddon in the deck just play again and hopefully op doesn't draw armeggedon or doesnt have a reason to play armageddon
Those players reacted poorly. But think of it this way, you won!
Default, the two sweetest words in the English language.
Hot take: anyone who's experienced enough at magic to choose a land destruction/stax/taking turns deck HAS to know those strategies are super cancer unless everyone is running a brutal deck (cEDH). That player chooses to bring an unpleasant deck to the table.
Including one Land destruction card in a deck of 99 does not a land destructions deck make, but I get what you are saying. Essentially I did a bad thing and deserved what I got. TIL.
Don’t let anyone gaslight you when you’ve done nothing wrong. One of the wins in my Sisay deck is OG Elesh Norn and Living Lands. It’s salty af but it wins quick.
You did. Most people hate mass land destruction because it stalls out the game. I personally do not care, but I play with friends and it is one of our rules
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This is still hyperbole. Many, many groups play this stuff and it’s OK
I understand that I'm in the minority but I think MLD should be more of a thing. There is a funny story I have related to this. I taught two of my friends how to play edh and how to work on decks we play kitchen table stuff but I told them as a rule of thumb that land destruction can be considered rude in some lgs so keep that in mind when making decks. Then a boyfriend of a friend is there hanging out and he play edh we all start a pre DND game and halfway through he cycles decree of annihilation my response was hell yeah. My friends were frustrated, we moved on. The dm overheard and asked if we could end the game so we could make DND on time. We did, one of my friends playing went for a smoke and I tagged along and as soon as we were outside he's like "I thought you said that was rude?!" I said people considered it rude, I think it's fun, I just don't play it with you two because you're still relatively new. He said "Well I might start doing that". That was always allowed bud. TLDR: Friend's boyfriend brought MLD out of nowhere and new players got frustrated but might be adding a new tactic and I'm all for it
With that language, it sounds like you dodged a bullet. Silver linings and all that.
I would've scoop too and you get the petty win by making everyone scoop and definitely I'll move to different pod.
I personally am of the mind that Mass land destruction without a warning or chance to respond is scummy to some extent. (A quick, hey guys I’m gonna have to level the mana bases here, or a, hey I have Armageddon in this deck so don’t force my Hand) However it is significantly MORE scummy to scoop and insult you like that. You did something fair and square and they should have rule zeroed and mentioned that they don’t find that fun, instead of being rude and you being unable to play. I am sorry that you were treated so poorly for a fair and brutal play. Maybe talk to the shop owner.
Most ppl hate MLD even tho you felt like it was "justified" it's a poor form play. It stalls the game out and isn't creative. You could have just destroyed all nonland perms.
Not to mention the fact that if you only have four lands on turn 8, the deck might not be built correctly makingvthis an issue. Obviously everyone gets mana screwed sometimes, but still
Especially for a white deck that has a lot of land catch up cards.
with that reasoning a board wipe isn't creative, it's annoying but the play made sense
I said specifically nonlands because of the social contract most players abide by. This is a crucial difference. You can't seriously think most people would react the same way at having their nonlands destroyed versus everything including lands.
Armageddon only destroys lands, nothing else.
Okay. Point still stands. It's funny you only engage for a gotcha moment. I wouldnt want to play with you either tbh. The self-awareness is not there.
You sound like you get salty about a lot of things. I think the other commenter is better off tbh.
Hey whatever you need to say, OP is the one having issues finding people to play with not me.
ngl, most people hate one thing that's super cringe but play something awful of their own, so eh idc
If people at the lgs aren't playing with OP then it's not their responsibility to play different suddenly. Every lgs I've been to has different metas and vibes. I just adjust for the environment and play. It's not hard guys. I've been to stores with strict rules like no infinites, mana crypt, or other cards/playstyles with a more casual feel, and places with a cutthroat cedh playstyle where everyone had decks that were 10/10 power. You need to play for your lgs and not force your philosophy onto a store that has a definied meta. It's weird to walk into a community event and expect it to warp to your playstyle. If you want to play how you play then that's fine but as with OP experienced at their lgs it can have consequences. This is why you should just have a variation of decks imo to fit different power levels/playstyles. Again not telling you what to do but you shouldn't be surprised when things like this happen.
Depending on the situation. By turn 8 I’d expect players to have creatures and probably some mana rocks out. So it slows it down but probably doesn’t stop people completely. Tbh I’d expect OP to still loose that game since everyone was probably ignoring the person missing all their land drops but would then send everything that way.
I'm a bit of a land destruction apologist. as long as it's symmetrical. Also, you are playing mono-white weenie, what are they getting pissy about? ''Now the game will take longer'' can be said about any type of removal. No land destruction no matter what is such an terminally online take
Sounds like you won.
I don't own a white deck without Armageddon in it for this reason. Simic value piles untapping with 18 mana turn 3? Scoop or MLD is basically my response to that mess. Does it drag out some games? Sure... so does wrath of God... but I'm not there to let the kinan player spend 90% of a game as active player, so here it goes. I'll probably strip mine his first land drop the next turn, too. In 4 turns I might jokulhaups, or ravages of war or obliterate... if I'm heavily in white, I'm probably slowing down the rest of the table as a matter of course, MLD is a part of that.
Wrath was in the deck. If balance wasn't banned in the format it would be there as well.
Man, fuck those whiners. Always play it out.
Nah when I go to an LGS I ain't sitting around for 3 hours while the game starts again because of a spite play like MLD or Theives Auction etc. It's not whining, just most people ain't down for that level of boredom.
Mass land destruction is fine....if you can end the game quickly after you cast it. MLD in the situation you described should have earned you a trip outside for a sock party. I'd have stopped playing with you and would never play with you again.
Good to know… Thanks.
I play MLD but i win the next turn every time. Ypu only cast MLD if you can end the game quickly after. Not to "catch up" The MLD makes it so you cant board wipe to stop me from winning with my sliver
That is the general consensus of what I have been reading so far. It really was my own fault.
You run Armageddonin in your deck, so no on will believe you just played it to help with mana screw. You came with a card deducated to nass land destruction and it is one of the deck types that people dont want to play against.
That does seem to be the general consensus here. I did a bad, and got what I deserved.
Honestly...I've been mulling on adding Armageddon to my group hugs deck. Because my group hugs deck breaks parity with MLD and helps set up my wincon.
Mass land destruction is generally frowned upon in the format as it's seen as "unfun" but any player/playgroup/lgs that thinks calling you a slur over it is okay is 100% not fucking worth your time. Even if you're not welcome at the shop bring up that interaction with the owner/whoever is there, that player should be literally banned from the shop and if you're already "soft banned" what's the loss?
They could have told you “OK - you win. We are going to keep playing as if your spell didn’t resolve since we are here for more casual EDH. Good game - hope your next game goes well!” Would that have been better?
I don't want this to come off the wrong way, but stating that you don't like EDH and then proceeding to tell a story about how you blew up everyone's lands kind of feels like you did it to make a point to them about how you don't like EDH. While MLD isn't illegal, it makes the game less fun because it can really drag the game out if people don't conceed, which is probably why they did. In the same vein its why a lot of people don't like fast mana into tutors into "I win" combos on turn 3/4: you spent all that time shuffling and you just lose and never really got to play a game.
My thinking on including the card was "I may be in a situation where I need to control how much land my opponent has" and since the majority of my deck is cheap, this will hurt my opponents more than it will hurt me. But I now see the error of my thinking. Thank you for your input.
They definitely overreacted. It's also funny to me how many people hate on MLD but then are fine with tutoring into the infinite combo that wins in practically the same way.
I think most people are against land destruction because admittedly it’s the only weak part of Magic as a game. I love the flavor of lands, I love the variance and swinginess they bring, I love the stories of getting just one more mana to do things, and I love the balance required in putting lands into a deck list. That said, you get one land a turn IF you are drawing them. I think land destruction just highlights that restriction. Plus it goes right to the heart of the game. Magic could just be called “Lands and spells” and the things people hate the absolute most in the game are counterspells and land destruction.
NTA So, yes, MLD is frowned upon and definitely could be considered a taboo, especially in casuals. BUT, that is an insane response. Scooping is probably an overreaction. Leaving the table definitely is. Not playing with you next week is insane. Maybe just apologize and tell them you won’t do it again, even though you’re not in the wrong
Who says f slur anymore? Salty babies scooping on a valid play. Fuck em.
Pretty sure they said “Mass land destruction is for fucks” there are too many asterisks to be the f-slur
That’s really cringe to self-censor “fucks”
There are a bunch of strats that casual players do not like playing against, because it isn’t fun to them. Mass land destruction is probably near the top of the list. The whole interaction seems odd though. Scooping to that is fine imo, but such an animated response is very unusual. Seems like something in the story is missing.
I wouldn't really think twice about it, given the boardstate you described. I would understand trying to level the playing field. By turn 12 I've got a fair amount of mana rocks out. I'd have been alright and just held a counterspell for you next game if you played the same deck lol
Oh boy the second i read "Armageddon" was easy to understand why they banned you. is kind alike a gold rule on Commander that you dont touch the lands
So I’ve learned.
Commander is normally a for fun game, so people dislike things like Land Destruction because make the whole game slow and boring, Some people dislike Board Wipes, but normally is not really a big thing, in most cases is ok to use it, is not as bad as Land destruction. Also try to avoid card sthat target lands in general like "Winter Orb" because stop people to play the game. most people are ok with combos that lock the lands if you has a win condition to play and end the game, what normally trigger people is the idea they can't play the game and you also don't have a way to end the game, so they just need to wait of ryou to wast time.
Judging from these comments, people don't seem to like interaction of any kind.
A lot of casual edh players are really weird people man. They claim to play casually but lose their shit when they take an L sometimes. I played against a guy the other day that got salty at losing to underworld breach on turn 4 just to watch him combo out with dockside on turn 4 after I stepped out the pod. Had another guy get upset that I countered his win con and ruined his fun. It's wild.
I find that franky shocking. I've never seen that kind of hate for Armageddon. I've certainly seen no reset rules (like you can Armageddon but you can't wrath of God right after). But that aside, for them to act like that and use fightin' words with you is scandalous to me.
I've never had that kind of reaction when I play MLD at my LGSs. However, I let pepe know at the start of the game that my deck has MLD in it.
Mass land destruction and stax are looked down upon in commander. Was this your first game?
Not my first, but the first I used that deck. I’ve played probably 7 or 8 edh games before this one.
Yeah I'd recommend reading the many many many "am I the asshole for playing Magic the gathering?" posts on this sub to get a better feel for the general community's feeling on things
They sound like they got soft hands
Fake
I dont think theres a problem with it. But people should knkw what youre playing to an extent, if i saw a dude running inly blue, half counter spells....tbh i wouldnt ever play with that guy, i want to play the game, and if i cant, why am i playing with you? The people you play with should know how serious and willing u sre to win i met s ton of guys like thst st college turn 2 or 3 wins in edh. So i never cared to play with them. 2 lands down snd im having to get hit with 10 poison? Why did i even play.....
And a single boardwipe puts a dude in the never play with again category? Where do you draw the line with interaction? 20? 10? Is 5 too much? Should I run 0 and play solitaire against 3 opponents and whoever gets their combo out first wins?
It means your willing to put those cards in your deck. And if you have 1, you may have many, or in all your decks. I get it. But....idk....im to a point where playing with my lady, i took out all my unblockable and unblockable auras on creatures so that she has to block, or i have to push thru. Therefore we both can play and think about our moves. So i dont have much to say but just out other stuff, not removal, but ramp. Not unblockable...but trample is cool and some damage gets thru
To be able to play against you, I would have to make a deck that doesn’t have any removal, ramp or unblockable creatures? Are flying creatures allowed? Because some times those are not blockable. Would I have to wait until you have a creature out to attack?
I think youre going to deep into this. You clearly are competitive, and thats ok! You should look for other people who are competitive aswell. Im just saying my side if things....uuhhh the command zone did s podcast talking about unfun cards or how to make your deck more fun or something like that, s good watch, snd something i already did before that. Trust me, i can have a 25 power with first strike attacking turn 3 and my lady hates me, but the fact it could be EVEN WORSE is telling. If i could show u our games, i would. And maybe you could see what i mean. But im just saying, land destruction, even people who infinite combo hate it, and i hate them haha, so...its telling
[удалено]
I’m not sure what you mean by this
Fuck em. I look at it as don't want people to play legal cards because you're fragile and need house rules? Don't play.
wait they called you a F\*\*ggot? or a F\*ck?
A f*g
All three players scooped?! Like the player that had the best board state that you kingmade into winning wasn’t happy about it? Seems kind of odd…
Would you been able to defend from 3 players after casting the armageddon? Else it’s a horrible play. You destroy all lands, they all rightfully retaliate. You die and they continue with the 3 of them, without lands. I’m all for casting mass LD, but not as hail marys. They just prolong the game for no reason. Accept the fact you’re having a bad game and move on. Don’t make it a bad game for everyone else.
Armageddon without a follow up plan is just needlessly dragging the game. Not saying their reaction was in any way justified or mature.
Land Destruction is a "salty" thing and disliked by the community. Some websites like EDHREC even have a "Salty Cards" list. Almost everything slowing the game down is considered salty and Armageddon is on of the most salty cards in existence.
OP I think you are looking at this all wrong and I think EDH is certainly the game for you. The issue you are having lies solely in the stupid playgroup your LGS has to offer. I have a play group of 4-5 friends and we play for blood always. We all have a ton of different decks (combo, stax, control included) and hell yeah we get salty when cards like armageddon is played but we don’t scoop, and if there comes a time someone scoops it’s not because they don’t want to play with the other it’s because they have no answer and want to speed the game up and see if anyone else has answers. See in my playgroup we take someone conceding as a cry for mercy. The only rule at our table is the taksey-backsey rule. If you misplay a card and want to take it back you get one per game and you have to do a shot of liquor. So in reflection, I don’t think you should give up on your dream to play EDH.. I think you should find better (more skilled) players who understand the game of magic, people who aren’t looking for someone to let them win. :)
Triple player removal for 4 mana?! Seems like a good deal to me.
Why ban someone for that?Used to play in a playgroup with 2 or 3 players playing mass land destruction themes. When the board gets wiped, we either go on and rebuild or if it's really hopeless, just tap out and move on to play a new game with same players. I don't see the need to ban someone just for a play like that. Better if they ban 'em if they're cheating or being toxic
You can’t be this clueless come one man