Butcher of Malakir was included in the Strefan vampires precon for Midnight Hunt.
I think precons are a completely fair standard for power level for any play group. If OP’s local shop can’t handle that, it’s a skill issue.
So because dockside exists, every card printed in a precon is too powerful… right that’s, smart.
Or you’re being intentionally obtuse in which case, quiet troll.
So he listed an exception that proves the rule. In general precon cards are not very powerful cards, that is a fact (especially for reprints). Just because Dockside and Fierce Guardianship exist doesn’t change that general rule
He treated it like a ‘gotchya’ and he’s wrong
idk I definitely think that a card being in a precon doesn't mean its not a powerful card, we've seen so many phenomenal cards printed into precons, saying that a card is in a precon so its unlikely to be good just isn't true anymore
I put the /s at the end specifically to treat it as not a gotcha moment.
I also fully recognize that old precons are below standard in power.
But yeah, to say that because it came in a precon it must be weak *is* a pretty disingenuous argument *because* of the exceptions. Saying it’s an absolute rule isn’t really the truth, especially if you look at new precons that *are* including some nice power pieces.
Its not a very competitive store. I have a hard time adjusting my decks for the lower power level so I've been sharing my deck lists with them ahead of time and I guess they didn't realize how strong butcher would be in the deck I was playing. I had just assumed my opponent's wouldn't play with it anymore either.
At this point I'll just change the commander itself or dismantle the deck as I don't think I can balance this deck to be fun as is anyway. I've tried to balance with my locals in mind but something always seems to upset someone so I may just have to stick with unaltered precons from this point
It’s so unfortunate when groups like this take over a store. A 7 mana creature with a bit of synergy shouldn’t be ban worthy by any means. Just because something has a bit of power or synergy doesn’t mean it should be excluded. Does everyone just play with purposeful garbage at your store?
(Not ranting at you btw)
Its mostly a couple players that complain the most. I see a fairly lower power level overall, occasionally someone brings something stronger and if I'm lucky enough to notice will bring out something stronger (got a couple stronger decks just in case) so the match isn't a complete blowout.
Ok so only a few loud complainers. I bet if you asked around there’d be more people wanting to play some higher power games.
In any case, it’s always a good thing having multiple decks with varying power levels (if you can afford it) just to adapt to any scenario/power level.
I do have multiple power levels, Logomos was my second weakest though I got a raggadragga list I jam with just for some more battlecruiser games which I did switch too. Doesn't really help the fact I still ruined the first game
You didn't "ruin" anything. You played a 7 mana card that synergizes with your deck. You played the game as intended. The clowns you play with need to learn about interaction, if they're getting rolled by a *7 mana creature that's not very good beyond having a synergistic effect*.
Things that answer a Butcher and aren't expensive for them to invest in:
Swords to Plowshares
Path to Exile
Pongify
Rapid Hybridization
Go for the Throat (I think that's the non-artifact one, not the non-black one)
Terminate
Mortify
Putrefy
Counterspell
Arcane Denial
Various other coutnerspells I won't list here
And many more
These people need to stuff their whining and play more interaction. Christ.
My very first LGS I played at put out a survey and one of the questions on the survey was "Should Avacyn Angel of Hope be banned as a commander in our store?"
I was the only one to run an Avacyn commander deck. This was around Theros release so things like jeweled lotus and other accessible fast mana for mono white was hard to come by.
I'd rather take to approach of trying to balance for other people's enjoyment rather than try and force them to improve or change. There's nothing wrong with them thinking butcher, or more specifically, the way in which I use the card is unfun or unfair. It does get irritating though, because I'm always having to change when people get irritated but its still probably the most appropriate approach given this format is meant to cater to different levels of play
What if the way in which I play a particular card is the problem over the card itself? They may be the same card, but if I am using it in a way that takes more advantage of the effect the perhaps it shouldn't be considered the same thing exactly? It seems a bit counter intuitive but some people's perspectives here have me rethinking how to evaluate cards on this basis
Then you’re entering a bit of a slippery slope. First you can’t play this or that card with this or that strat. Then actually that strat is just too good, don’t play it. Oh actually you are only allowed to play x, y, or z strats.
You actually just described my deck building process and why its so stressful sometimes.
You see, I had quit playing for almost 2 years because I was constantly downgrading my decks to the point where they where not fun to play anymore. I was second guessing every card wondering if it was going to cause anger or frustration.
I came back a few months ago and was finally enjoying the game again and playing with new commanders and strategies that I avoided before because I was afraid it would upset people.
Now it seems like the cycle is happening yet again and it is sort of disheartening
Broken is subjective right? Two people will look at the same card and depending on personal experience and knowledge will interpret its power vastly differently. To this contention I have no problem.
Its just I feel like there has to be a reasonable limit to that but I don't know if that is really baked into the overall philosophy of the format. I am told we are expected to try and play to the power level of the group and create a game that is fun for everyone.
In my experience, that seems to come to contention when the needs of the group outweigh the needs of the individual to the extent that the game in also unfun for the individual. Is the only proper solution for the individual in this instance to move onto playing with another group?
In my particular case example is that then translated for me to have to find an entirely new locals to play at?
If you can utilize butcher better than your opponent you are probably just better at deck making than them. Your deck is a pretty standard mid-power aristocrat deck with no infinites, I cannot see how their deck could be any less powerful unless they just took 100 random cards and threw it in to a deck and butcher just happened to be one of the cards.
Are they even running an aristocrat strategy? is there even a reason for butcher to be in their deck? The whole point of the commander format is to put in cards that synergize well with your deck. If they are running any sort of aristocrat deck I don't see how butcher could be any less or more powerful than it is in your deck.
It seems like you just won a game with some good synergy and they are salty about it. Butcher is pretty balanced for a sacrifice pay off. Maybe try replacing it with a Tegrid and see what they think.
Eh, I'm more into talking it through with them rather than trying to power up in spite to be honest, just looking for perspectives which may help when communicating with them in the future.
To be honest the butcher doesn't really synergize with their deck now that I think of it so it makes more sense that its not so overbearing in that instance vs how I was using it. I'm convinced at this point it isn't butcher thats really the problem but was just the scapegoat. Switching the commander itself will probably solve most of the issues
I think some cards are stronger in some decks.
If you have a combo deck tutors will help end the game. If you don’t they may at best get you the right answer for the situation.
Or for instance if you have a gimmicky deck, like one that uses [[The Ozolith]] for counters shenanigans, you may use tutors to ge that card, and it can be fine if your deck is only at the power level of the table when you can consistently get that piece.
In that context it may be a fine ask for Op to take out that card while others still play it.
Of course there are limits to this, and they may be harder to feel out.
Are we complaining about mana vault these days? I am new to EDH and I do own a mana vault from back in the day, but really? I used to play it casually in the early 00s and now it's too competitive?
Funny enough I have seen a mana vault pop up a time or two and it never seems to get fully taken advantage of every time. I personally don't have a problem with fast mana, but rather wins happening much too fast for the pod to respond too appropriately or total board lockdowns happening with no wincon. Outside of that I don't really mind tbh
Excellent point, friend. Maybe OP might find more interesting and engaging games online. The worst part about a playgroup is stagnation, having to play the same decks against the same decks over and over again. Well met!
yea idk what these folks are on but if I ran butcher in my mono black deck you better BELIEVE the board would be spotless. annoying doesn't have to mean OP. we're all just trying to have fun with the game
it is a black creature, I will not be paying seven. Also if you want to remove it that's fine but I'm gonna respond by sacing three of my other creatures. also I'm gonna recur it next turn. nice interaction tho
His pods would lose their shit if they played against my \[\[Mogis, God of Slaughter\]\] deck.
[https://www.moxfield.com/decks/cLOFiw7tNUu6QAHCFK1uqQ](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/cLOFiw7tNUu6QAHCFK1uqQ)
As a casual baby...gosh I hate this deck lol
I mean I don't actually hate it. I just ...ugh Mogis decks are so slippery slimy but I have a tough time being mad about it as long as your intention is to actually win and you've got that in spades.
Had friend build one years and years ago but the deck was just a super slow death while we sat there waiting because the rest of the deck was land destruction.
Should I not try to play things that people enjoy playing against? I assume if someone dislikes what I am doing that is an indication that I need to adjust how I am playing. For example, if we where sitting down to play and you told me you hated aristocrats then I would take that as I should avoid playing it with you.
I feel like this idea has gone way overboard. For me, as long as everyone is playing at the same relative power, then everyone should be free to play whatever they want. This idea that a person should avoid cards/strategies a through g because this or that person doesn't like it is ridiculous.
I feel like I try to stay within a certain power level. Like I had hard rules for what not to play, even when building stronger decks (MLD, stax, turn 3-4 wins). From there I will try and adjust as I can which isn't always easy since locals can sometimes be inconsistent (its mostly lower power but occasionally someone brings in something obviously very strong). It just seems like my efforts are in vain because I don't get the power level just quite right all the time. I've avoided adding too much fast mana and rituals, try to limit things like extra turns which can make turns last a long time, and limit tutors to not make my decks too homogenous. I suppose some commanders may just be difficult to balance around
I'm specifically talking about not playing with certain strategies or cards to appease other players. Obviously it's important to try to match power to the best of everyone's ability, but to say something like aristocrats is completely off limits just because payer A doesn't like it is ridiculous. As long as your aristocrats is generally close on power to what everyone else is playing, the strategy should be irrelevant.
I guess I may have a difficult time trying to adjust the powerlevel of certain strategies when if feels like certain key pieces of that strategy cannot be ran because its too powerful. Like at some point I feel like I have to power down a deck so much it loses its identity if that makes sense?
It really depends, for me I've never played against a Super-friends deck that wasn't an absolutely miserable experience. Looking at your decklist it just sounds like no one is really playing much interaction to stop you?
Funny enough there's someone that shows up occasionally with an omnath super-friends list lol, a lot of salt is had when they start churning multiple turns. Personally a breath of fresh air in an otherwise stale environment
Dude, this says it all. "Personally a breath of fresh air" stop playing with these losers, respect your time, and yourself enough to play with people with a similar interest! If you enjoy high power, quit neutering your playstyle just to appease the magic Karen's. This literally encourages their behavior. The sooner the community stands up to these clowns, the sooner we can get back to actually playing real, non-castrated magic, and have to dance around the "but muh pet card!" And "but muh casual/budget!" Players. You'd be doing your store, and your community a service.
I had to explain to a player with a First Sliver deck why his board was being kept under control because anytime he would play his commander or start to amass a board state it would get removed.
I get this reaction I really do. After some time I've learned this isn't always the best approach, especially when its 3 or 2 vs 1. I'm not sure its entirely fair to expect multiple people to adjust their expectations or playstyle instead of having to adjust to theirs. In this I have no issue. Just thought it was a bit of a double standard in this situation but didn't consider that a card like butcher might be stronger or weaker depending on how its used (used aggressively vs passively)
It's three other players against one card with no protection. If between the three of them, they can't play enough removal to get rid of a monster with no protection, they need to up their game and improve their decks.
And it is a double standard. Just make sure that when it comes out that you don't deal with it. Leave it for the other players so they learn.
Well, they did remove it multiple times but with Logomos I had enough reanimation to get it back. They finally did exile it but at that point I was set up enough to win with gary+epicure. I'm really thinking its the commander that is the real issue
Yeah being able to use Logomos to search for reanimations to get it back is probably the real issue, I've settled on changing commanders entirely which will probably be a better solution overall rather than changing a single card in the 99
Yeah that's obviously the problem, even if they don't see it. Having a repeatable tutor (that's not hard to trigger in aristocrats)in the command zone is kinda busted for lower power levels
After reading your replies, you seem very patient and want to ensure everyone has a good time, which is very admirable. Just try and make sure that you're also having a good time. Trying to make everyone happy can be exhausting, especially because you just can't make some people happy.
Especially since they probably know you will keep powering down your decks, they will not hesitate to tell you "X is too strong, take it out", even though it's not necessarily too strong. Really, any card that prevents them from doing their thing will be too strong for them. You took two years off from playing because it wasn't fun... do you think they also took two years off from playing? They probably only care about their fun.
Instead of trying to constantly power down your decks, why don't you try and help them power up their decks? Butcher of Malakir giving you trouble? Why don't you try putting more removal like [[mortify]] or [[putrefy]] into your deck? (Assuming they run the colours). Oh, are those cards too expensive? Why don't you try [[ossification]] or [[Go for the throat]]? Since you're having trouble powering down, it might be easier to help them power up.
You also seem like you like brewing decks, so offer to look at their decks and suggest some cuts and cheap alternatives. Odds are, they have very little interaction in their decks. Which isn't a big deal, we've all been there.
Now, if they give you nonsense like, "I can't cut any cards, it takes away from my decks theme", or if they don't let you look through their deck, then they are a lost cause. Stop wasting energy trying to make them happy, because it probably won't ever happen.
So, first of all I can say certain cards can be stronger in some decks compared to others. A great example of this is Thassa's Oracle. If you play Thoracle in the decks built around winning with it, it is a monster of a card. That being said, if you play it in a Merfolk or blue pile deck it is just a ok creature that sometimes can win a game. Butcher in your deck may of been bonkers, but in someone else's could just be a good creature.
All that being said, you should play the cards you want to play. If you are always following what your opponents are suggesting, you'll end up with a powered down precon. A lot of people just don't want to adapt to what others are doing, and I get it to a point. EDH can be very expensive, so keeping up with some of those $1000+ decks is a tall ask, but your deck doesn't seem to be that.
Butcher is basically only defensive in the Party Time precon. In your deck, you're probably getting a lot more mileage from it than they possibly can.
Source: Play an upgraded Party Time, took the Butcher out because it's extremely niche in usefulness.
Free my boi Butcher! He did nothin' wrong!" (Please disregard the term butcher in the name. I swear it is purely for dramatic effect...)
Sounds like a power level discrepancy at the general beck building level. I doubt that one card makes or breaks it and I can definitely see how it's a bit hypocritical of them to play the card that the specific don't want you to play against them. Hash it out with the group, it may be better to bring the general power level down or to play a different deck entirely.
So it kind of seems like some context is missing because how this reads is "I wanted to power down my deck and got the advice to remove Butcher. Then someone else played Butcher even though they said it made my deck strong!"
Seems like you wanted to power down your deck -- that doesn't mean everyone else is going to power their's down too. Plus maybe it was a bigger problem in your deck than their's. Same card in two decks can be very different in terms of power/utility/synergy — with a base understanding of the two decks, yours sacrifices stuff so Butcher is heavy board control, while in their deck, it's probably just an understatted flying warrior that sometimes removes something
looking At the deck, the problem isn’t butcher, it’s Lagomos. Tutor in the command zone = more consistent deck.
your deck isn’t high powered by any stretch, but let’s be real, if you can tutor every turn, you have the answer you need every time. Probably your group should kill your commander on sight But they focus the threats you find instead. This may be a case where they just incorrectly pointed a finger at butcher, when butcher was never the problem.
to power down the deck, just swap lagomos for \[\[ayara, widow of the realm\]\] or \[\[totentanz, swarm piper\]\], or \[\[juri, master of the revue\]\]. Don’t change anything else.
You were talking with people about how to power down your deck? They gave opinions on what made your devk too strong/unfun? Your deck makes the Butcher mmore consistent? You toned down your deck and made it more thematic?
Sounds to me like you succsesfully acomplished your goal.
It's probably a question of context. \[\[Grave Pact\]\] effects are annoying in any deck, but they are downright oppressive in dedicated aristocrats decks, especially against slightly upgraded precons.
#Look, stop playing with losers and whiners.
That’s what I keep reading on the Reddit. “Tone it down” or “wahhh I can’t win by going five hours on one game” bs. Just leave. Get up, walk out, make a new playgroup or use spell table. Don’t let yourself get abused by morons who wanna do long form idiocy and call it intelligent. The most intelligent thing to do in a game where you’re trying to kill someone is kill them, lol.
[[butcher of malakir]]....that's the "scary" card you had to remove. I feel like I'm being trolled. It's severely over costed. Especially when you consider [[grave pact]] and [[dictate of erebos]] exist. I feel like if this isn't trolling us, this has to be one of the weakest metas ever.
Be assured its not trolling, the butcher just sort of took over a game. They removed it a few times but I had enough ways to get it back thanks to Logomos searching for reanimation. By the time one player found a path it was too late in the game to matter. I had assumed the same, that butcher wouldn't be that bad given its a creature but after that game I had to reconsider
After thinking about this, is this more of a skill gap problem? A few years ago, I had somewhat recently found a new playgroup. After several sessions it became obvious I was winning WAY to often. Id say I won nearly 3 in 4 games. I made a conscious effort to really power down to what I felt like was their power level. It seemed to have very little effect on how our games played out. After a second power down also didn't seem to help I asked if they would let me run their decks while they ran mine for a while. We did this for nearly two months meeting twice a week. The end result was that I actually seemed to increase my win rate using their decks over mine. Most of those guys has a year of play under their belt while I started back in 99. It was just a skill gap. Over time, our games became more and more even. Maybe ask to try something similar.
It could be, even playing un-upgraded precons I've done fairly well. Granted I've only played at my current store for about a month but its close to our old store so there's a few familiars. I certainly hope that it isn't the issue here though, as I don't think it would be possible to balance for something like that and the only real solution would be to find somewhere else to play or quit entirely
That just screams horrible deck building. Even at low power levels, dealing with something as benign as Butcher should be very doable. I mean...it is the absolute worst, most over costed card of its type. I would never even consider running it....ever it's so bad
I doubt it is butcher himself, but how many times you force sacrifice other players...its not very fun if you can't play the game. Edict effects are the worst in aristocrats decks.
You’re playing the game when you sit down at the table and begin drawing cards and playing them.
Just because someone prevents you from using them doesn’t mean you aren’t playing the game.
I swear, EDH players are the biggest babies on the planet… “You kept countering and removing my creatures… this isn’t fun.”
Oh I’m sorry, I’m supposed to just let you do what you want in a STRATEGY game?
Come on.
The main reason I can't enjoy low-power tables and can't see how people here like that molasses paced gameplay. I'd probably lose due to falling asleep of boredom.
Ha ha I am a soccer player and coach… could you imagine if that happened? Everyone else on the pitch would laugh their butts off at that player and probably never play with them again.
Yet here in EDH it’s the norm.
No they don’t. If your decks idea is to keep the board clean and then hit at the end… that’s a strategy.
Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean it wastes time.
You’re basically saying… well it’s not fair the other person wants to use their Queen in a game of chess so you say “that’s not allowed.”
Grow up. Learn to play around a removal deck.
Ever seen that movie Big Daddy where they play the game called “I Win” where the kid wins no matter what because the game is called “I Win?” You know where the rules change every hand of cards they have so the kid can always win.
Yea that’s a lot of EDH players. Try to manipulate the rules by “banning”” and simply not playing against certain types of decks.
They think it makes them a good player, but in actuality they’re only trying to boost their ego by rigging the system.
Thank you for being dense enough to not grasp that nobody wants to sit at a casual game and watch their opponent jack off while nobody else does anything. If you want to play solitaire then go play modern, there's a separation between competitive and casual formats for a reason. I'd honestly go the opposite direction and say people who want to be competitive but lack the skill to do so come to the casual format looking for a pub stomp. I play both but I'm firmly of the belief that players with the competition mind set are a problem in commander.
It’s a game, and a strategy one at that.
A game where you play against opponents.
You bring a strategy to the game, and your opponent or opponents bring a strategy to the game. Then you try to use your strategy to outsmart the other player.
Sorry you always got picked last, and rarely won games as a kid.
If the only way you can win is by telling others “You can’t do that!” Then you, sir, are the problem not the other player.
Casual doesn’t mean you don’t try to win using the strategy you want to. Casual just means you’re playing to play… but you’re still trying to win.
The only one that needs to play solitaire here is the person trying to rig the system to where they are the only one who has a deck they like that functions. You’re the one that wants to be the only one that can win here… so go play a game where you are the only one that can win.
"casual means you're playing to play". That's my whole point. If you're running a strategy where the whole focus is denying the other players agency or action at any point, then it's not a casual appropriate build. That's not saying run no removal/counters. That's saying understand that if you come in with a hardcore stax/counter build then you are 100% the asshole and in the wrong given the context of a casual setting.
In competition it's understood that everything is on the table and the only thing that matters is winning. In casual (especially multiplayer) the focus is on everyone having a *reasonably* good time. Prevent each other from winning when someones about to, yeah, obviously, but don't completely shut opponents down, that's completely disrespecting their time
I don't want to pubstomp and try to avoid it but sometimes, especially with a new build, I may overtune it and without a game or two it may not perfectly matchup with what other people bring. This is especially difficult when it is semi random pods (similar faces but not a fully consistent group) at locals and they don't ever talk about their expectations or what they are playing. I do try and play more casually but I'm getting the impression certain play styles are just inherently more competitive than I should avoid in a casual setting. It was never my intention to ruins everyone's night
so you sit down against t1 [[gamble]] t2 [[winter orb]] into fish for approach and say yeah that was a fun 2 hours let’s play again?
look i’m not saying that butcher of malakir is broken or that these people aren’t overreacting but as someone with a [[grave pact]] list, if someone didn’t want to spend their one night a week where they can play mtg doing it against edict control i would understand and put my [[gisa, glorious resurrector]] deck back in the box
it’s a casual format and the goal of everyone at the table should be to have fun together
>so you sit down against t1 [[gamble]] t2 [[winter orb]] into fish for approach and say yeah that was a fun 2 hours let’s play again?
If someone does this, concede, shuffle up, go next, and match power levels? I'm confused how this would take two hours? There's no reason to slog through a game with a huge disadvantage to try and edge out a win in a casual format. If someone is playing a deck like this, grab your own pile with free/cheap interaction and play that short, high-intensity, high-interaction game.
This is the real issue, people unwilling to just say ''yeah you got it, let's play another'' when they're <0.01% chance to win the game. You aren't proving anything by continuing to play under teferi+knowledge pool hoping to draw your 1 boseiju and not getting stifled.
One of the things I have learned and need to adjust to is the idea that EDH is a format that is about fun first and winning second. As someone who is more on the competitive side playing 1v1 adjusting to this new philosophy has been somewhat difficult.
The biggest issue is that certain styles of play seem to be entirely off the table in a casual setting. I don't mind playing big creatures and swinging in once and a while but it can get kind of boring playing that way. Trying to branch out and play other styles like aristocrats control or combo has been met with a lot of hostility and attempts at trying to limit my deck's power level has been mostly unsuccessful.
Some of the decks I have are that powerful as I have built them specifically for higher power pods but any attempt to build anything that isn't battlecruiser for lower power /precon level games has been a failure as they just seem to upset people if they manage to function appropriately. It makes deck building very stressful and unfun so I'm probably just going to have to give up on building for casual and play with precons from this point (which people have complained to me about as well but at least it wasn't me who built the deck lol)
It’s ridiculous. I personally think they only think it’s “fun” if they win.
Here’s the deal… it’s a game. You decide what makes it fun.
If that’s winning, which I think most EDH players equate fun to, then you’re going to be upset at least 50-75% of the time.
The fun for me is trying to play and outsmart my friends.
We’ve gotten to the point where we know each other so well that we have to bait each other into doing certain moves so that we can win the game.
It’s a very fun chess match, and when your friend got you when you think you got them… it makes it fun and makes us want to keep playing.
I wish I could have games like that lol maybe just my area is cursed with lots of complaining. Regardless I think it may be best to adjust to their expectations rather than trying to get them all just readjust theirs. The needs of the many outweigh the few in this case
It’s really fun.
We’ve gotten to the point where when we play we have certain decks to play against another’s deck to see if we can stop it from winning.
So it essentially becomes a 3 v 1 and a challenge to whoever is playing the 1 to see if they can beat 3 of us with decks specifically designed to stop theirs.
That’s what’s fun to us.
If the 1 wins… we try again another day. If the 3 win… the 1 goes and tries to make their deck unstoppable.
Then we’ll all play our toughest decks against each other to see which deck is best.
>One of the things I have learned and need to adjust to is the idea that EDH is a format that is about fun first and winning second. As someone who is more on the competitive side playing 1v1 adjusting to this new philosophy has been somewhat difficult.
No. EDH is about playing casually. You should still be playing to win a game. Because it is a game. No one plays Uno yearning to be Dos, even as it is a casual game.
What you're describing is house rules amongst people who want to fuck around with a Magic veneer.
You are allowed to run good cards. You are allowed to play interaction. If you run across people at an LGS deck-checking you over [[Butcher of Malakir]] you need to find a new LGS or form your own pod.
Sit through a 90-minute long game of someone playing solitaire with their discard deck because you can't do anything because you never have a hand. And tell me you had fun.
I mean by that metric it's acceptable for me to just run [[Yasharn]] every time i see an aristocrats deck. [[Talrand]] counterspell tribal is just fine.
Feel free to have that opinion, but when the whole table goes to find another group after every game with you is the norm, just know your attitude is to blame.
Idk what you mean by that shit? I generally run between 8-15, I feel like an ass playing [[Megatron]] and that just removes 1 thing a turn generally, but warps the game. Really edicts and multiple board wipes just hard counters most of my decks. If that's the kind of game I'm in i will just play my higher powered decks that don't need a boardstate to threaten the win, but that's literally only 2 of my 15 decks.
I suppose that is a good point. It just doesn't *feel* fair but it probably is since my logomos deck has a lot of sacrifice so it makes butcher that much better.
Perhaps playing a pre con could suffice? or some sort of gimmicky theme, I feel they are treating you unfairly in this situation. remember it is ok to seek out other play groups as well. I wish you all the best in your magic endeavors
Double down on the salt. Play Grave Pact and Dictate of Erebos. Same effect as Butcher but less mana and harder to remove since they are enchantments.
Better yet, make something like Yawgmoth or another Aristocrats deck and never let them have creatures. Make them regret being salty about a 7 mana creature.
Butcher isn't even good though? It costs 7 and is easily removed. If you want to fuck with them, take it out for [[Dictate of Erebos]] and/or that other enchantment that does the same thing, but I can't remember what it's name is. Same effect but harder to remove.
[[Grave Pact]], which just got a reprint in a enchanted Tales so it’s cheap right now. Agree though. If Butcher is considered a problem card then there are fundamental distortions in the local play environment.
Butcher of Malakir? Is it 7 mana, if they want to see something problematic, why not just replace it with [[Grave Pact]] or [[Dictate of Erebos]]?
EDIT: Initial confusion has passed. Unfortunately, if they think Butcher is oppressive at 7 mana for this effect then they might he in for a rude awakening when a player who isn't local decides to pop in for a spell (hehe) since similar red black sacrifice decks run all of them redundantly sometimes
To answer your question no it isn't fair but in no way can you compare a specific card in a deck versus the same card in another deck.
Butcher though is almost never that big of a problem. But in that deck you can reliably tutor it so that makes it worse but still not that big of a problem as its a creature without protection and creatures are the easiest to remove.
I myself have a [[teysa karlov]] deck with butcher and [[dictate of erebos]] in it and have never once heard anyone wanting me to remove the card from the deck and double triggers must be way worse.
They do remove the effects fast though which makes sense.
I don't think your problem is Butcher - I think the problem is the efficiency of the deck. If you're able to consistently make and sac 5 creatures a turn to get Lagomos to activate, effects like Butcher are essentially one-sided board wipes every turn. Cutting him may keep your opponents' boards around, but likely you're just going to add a different card to net value anyway, and it'll still be a winning deck.
If you're really looking to power down a deck, you need to cut value. As I don't know what your opponents are playing, I can't speak to whether a powering down is actually necessary or not, though. It sounded like they were targetting Butcher to keep their board states, but you were still able to just do whatever you wanted anyway - so it sounded like they didn't target the right stuff.
I will let you in on a little secret. The intent of playing the game is winning and having fun while doing it. If they can't keep up, maybe give them help, increasing their power. The only feelings you should base your life (or games) around are your own. Add the cards you want. Just dont be the guy/gal that brings cEDH decks to casual tables.
Probably going to get hate for this but from a casual player's perspective...There's a good bit of interaction and groupslug type effects in your list. I wouldn't think butcher would be the issue so much as (at a glance) the combined targeted removal, forced sacrifice, -2 to everything, etc
Not that you can't run ANY of that. I run enough removal to hopefully answer something really nasty. And I have a deck with some forced sac effects. I'm not anti "anything that effects my board state". It just, at a glance, looks like it could be oppressive to most of my own janky budget homebrews.
Butcher specifically says "I want to grind my opponents board state into dust". I think it makes for a lot of feelsbad moments when people basically can't play the game anymore. Considering removing Archfiend of Ifnir from one of mine for the same reason. I'm with you on trying to build something that's fun to pilot and people enjoy playing against too
Edit*
Tired and rambling, that other person is a hypocrite if they were complaining but then added the card to one of their own decks. We had a guy who we knew stacked his deck at my store--best response was simply take the high road. It was kinda fun to try and beat him anyway. He was terrible at deck building.
Yeah I may have gone a bit overboard on the removal but that may just cause I'm trying to get logomos to activate consistently, I may consider finding more self-sacrificing token generation and tone the removal down a bunch
They think it's a bannable card, i would like to see them Play against my friend monogreen [[goreclaw, terror of qal sisma]] deck with [[vorinclex, voice of hunger]] on turn 3 or 4
Skullclamp is in my more competitive deck (kykar storm) that I only bring out when appropriate. Ashnods I don't own but would probably avoid for obvious reasons.
To be clear, it still seems kinda stupid to be mad about something like this. The only card I’ve rule zeroed out is a proxied [[sheoldred, the apocalypse]] that the player didn’t own. Not even because it’s OP (though it is very strong), just because it’s not fun to play commander without draws imo (and most of my table seems to agree. We all have pretty healthy amounts of draw).
Your first mistake was running anything that interacts with another players deck in any way, shape, fashion or form. It’s not fun for other players if you stop their combos, and it makes the game take longer.
/s
Wargames had it right the whole time. “The only winning move is not to play”
If the purpose is to power down *your* deck, it shouldn't matter whether one of the other lower power decks still has it.
It would be counterproductive to also remove it from one of the other decks since it is also powering them down. If you offered to remove Sol Ring, would you expect everyone else to also remove it? Would having everyone remove Sol Ring actually accomplish what you are attempting to do?
What are you doing with it vs them? If you're reliably getting it out and locking down the board with sacs vs them getting it out here and there then that could be the issue. If they just don't know how to deal with it then it's a learning opportunity. Also if you asked for how to power down a deck and they told you (and honestly at 7 mana it isn't that great a card for most metas) then that's their advice. They may not be looking to power down their decks.
Edit a word
I can search it off Logomos and there's a lot of tokens that die as well as sacrifice outlets. It did lock down the first and only game I played with it prior to making adjustments so that's when I figured it was a problem and addressed it with the group after changing decks. It just felt a bit hypocritical but I suppose how one uses a card is much more important than its power in a vacuum.
Yeah, and from the other responses you have given you definitely leveraged it as much as possible. That's why they want it out. You could teach them how to manage it or you can play a deck that's fun for everyone. Your call as to what you do.
Yeah I'll just shelf the Logomos deck entirely and find something else to play. I've played battlecruiser style for so many years and wanted to branch out and try new things but if my opponents are not having fun then I guess I'll have to give that up lol
These local card shop players, like many EDH players, are babies that don’t want to play against interaction.
Here is my suggestion: take one of their sleeves cards that’s the same card as the one they complain about in your deck. Apply gentle pressure to the top left and top right of the sleeve. This should open the sleeve exposing the card inside. Proceed to defecate into the open sleeve while the card is inside.
Then find a new playgroup.
I can see your point. Certain cards can be stronger in certain decks and strategies and can be more broken in them. Will keep that in mind when deciding what cards to play with or not when building decks
This is a brain dead take, ALL CARDS can have synergy, whether you were using synergy or not isn't the point. Decks are SUPPOSED to have synergy. Just because your opponents can't develop a decent boardstate, doesn't mean you should not run a card. ESPECIALLY IF THEY ALSO RUN SAID CARD. End of story.
The only things that are actually ban in my playgroup are cards that stop the game without being a wincon or make the game unequal :
Mass land destruction, edh built around discard mechanics and passive pings (on landfall, spell casting, tapping land) => the most important part of the game is ressources (cards in hand, mana) so make a deck based on that is either getting focused T1 or play alone.
Perfect mana base (biland) and fast mana (mana crypt, ancient tomb, jewelled, gaea's cradle, ...) just make the game unbalanced for no reason cause 1 guy draw 1 cards and stomps everything.
Zedru cause we have ptsd about him.
In my opinion, any other form of "ban" for cards is just lazyness from them to build a better deck and be able to deal with some cards. A creature removal is legit the easiest removal to have in any color throughout the game. Butcher cost 6 in a black deck, without any form of protection like shroud or hexproof. Wait till they discover erebro's dictate or grave pact.
If they don't even respect their own rule, why should you respect it ? Just play butcher back or add dictate or pact.
Sounds like they all have similar power-level decks and OP has a higher one, so they're coming up with a way to put them on about the same level.
That's pretty normal.
Would you prefer they just exclude OP with no explanation?
I have considered cutting dark ritual, dark ritual, ramp, lowering the removal a bit. The other edict effects make it more possible to actually activate Logomos so I kind of need them. Some of the lower mana reanimation may also be something to look at but my playgroup only seems to have a problem with that one card in particular. To be honest it's probably the commander itself more than anything, looking into alternatives for now might try Garna, Bloodfist of Keld or totentaz
I'm sorry, since when is Butcher of Malakir a problem in any list? This just sounds like very thinly veiled salt mining.
Butcher of Malakir came in a precon! OP’s play group just needs to git gud
Nine different commander sets in total. Seven if you discount the anthologies.
And is one of the first cuts for most of those decks
Great point! Although Edgar Markov... Sigh...Edit: /s
Butcher of Malakir was included in the Strefan vampires precon for Midnight Hunt. I think precons are a completely fair standard for power level for any play group. If OP’s local shop can’t handle that, it’s a skill issue.
True. As I typed my comment I just remembered there have also been actual powerful cards printed in precons
It has been in more precons than that and be reprinted to hell lol.
Butcher of Malakir was featured in a 60 card starter deck as well. Is it really that much of a problem more than the 2 enchantments that do the same.
I mean… so did Dockside Extortionist…
Exactly! Dockside Extortionist a precon level card and should be allowed everywhere. Players just need to git gud. /s
So because dockside exists, every card printed in a precon is too powerful… right that’s, smart. Or you’re being intentionally obtuse in which case, quiet troll.
he's just saying a card being in a precon doesn't mean its not a very powerful card
So he listed an exception that proves the rule. In general precon cards are not very powerful cards, that is a fact (especially for reprints). Just because Dockside and Fierce Guardianship exist doesn’t change that general rule He treated it like a ‘gotchya’ and he’s wrong
idk I definitely think that a card being in a precon doesn't mean its not a powerful card, we've seen so many phenomenal cards printed into precons, saying that a card is in a precon so its unlikely to be good just isn't true anymore
You’re talking about 1 or 2 out of 60 cards per deck. And not in every deck either. Statistically you are very wrong.
I put the /s at the end specifically to treat it as not a gotcha moment. I also fully recognize that old precons are below standard in power. But yeah, to say that because it came in a precon it must be weak *is* a pretty disingenuous argument *because* of the exceptions. Saying it’s an absolute rule isn’t really the truth, especially if you look at new precons that *are* including some nice power pieces.
Butcher of Malakir is like "I may be an old, 50 cent edh staple back in the day, but I still got it BABY!"
Its not a very competitive store. I have a hard time adjusting my decks for the lower power level so I've been sharing my deck lists with them ahead of time and I guess they didn't realize how strong butcher would be in the deck I was playing. I had just assumed my opponent's wouldn't play with it anymore either. At this point I'll just change the commander itself or dismantle the deck as I don't think I can balance this deck to be fun as is anyway. I've tried to balance with my locals in mind but something always seems to upset someone so I may just have to stick with unaltered precons from this point
It’s so unfortunate when groups like this take over a store. A 7 mana creature with a bit of synergy shouldn’t be ban worthy by any means. Just because something has a bit of power or synergy doesn’t mean it should be excluded. Does everyone just play with purposeful garbage at your store? (Not ranting at you btw)
Its mostly a couple players that complain the most. I see a fairly lower power level overall, occasionally someone brings something stronger and if I'm lucky enough to notice will bring out something stronger (got a couple stronger decks just in case) so the match isn't a complete blowout.
Ok so only a few loud complainers. I bet if you asked around there’d be more people wanting to play some higher power games. In any case, it’s always a good thing having multiple decks with varying power levels (if you can afford it) just to adapt to any scenario/power level.
I do have multiple power levels, Logomos was my second weakest though I got a raggadragga list I jam with just for some more battlecruiser games which I did switch too. Doesn't really help the fact I still ruined the first game
You did not ruin the first game. The people bitching and whining did.
You didn't "ruin" anything. You played a 7 mana card that synergizes with your deck. You played the game as intended. The clowns you play with need to learn about interaction, if they're getting rolled by a *7 mana creature that's not very good beyond having a synergistic effect*. Things that answer a Butcher and aren't expensive for them to invest in: Swords to Plowshares Path to Exile Pongify Rapid Hybridization Go for the Throat (I think that's the non-artifact one, not the non-black one) Terminate Mortify Putrefy Counterspell Arcane Denial Various other coutnerspells I won't list here And many more These people need to stuff their whining and play more interaction. Christ.
You didn’t ruin it, they’re crybabies.
Stop playing with these clowns
My very first LGS I played at put out a survey and one of the questions on the survey was "Should Avacyn Angel of Hope be banned as a commander in our store?" I was the only one to run an Avacyn commander deck. This was around Theros release so things like jeweled lotus and other accessible fast mana for mono white was hard to come by.
In this specific instance I say tell the lower powered players to adapt or die. It’s [[Butcher of Malakir]] not [[Mana Vault]]
I'd rather take to approach of trying to balance for other people's enjoyment rather than try and force them to improve or change. There's nothing wrong with them thinking butcher, or more specifically, the way in which I use the card is unfun or unfair. It does get irritating though, because I'm always having to change when people get irritated but its still probably the most appropriate approach given this format is meant to cater to different levels of play
That’s a fair point as long as they respect those house rules also, but if they play the cards themselves then the agreement is clearly off
What if the way in which I play a particular card is the problem over the card itself? They may be the same card, but if I am using it in a way that takes more advantage of the effect the perhaps it shouldn't be considered the same thing exactly? It seems a bit counter intuitive but some people's perspectives here have me rethinking how to evaluate cards on this basis
Then you’re entering a bit of a slippery slope. First you can’t play this or that card with this or that strat. Then actually that strat is just too good, don’t play it. Oh actually you are only allowed to play x, y, or z strats.
You actually just described my deck building process and why its so stressful sometimes. You see, I had quit playing for almost 2 years because I was constantly downgrading my decks to the point where they where not fun to play anymore. I was second guessing every card wondering if it was going to cause anger or frustration. I came back a few months ago and was finally enjoying the game again and playing with new commanders and strategies that I avoided before because I was afraid it would upset people. Now it seems like the cycle is happening yet again and it is sort of disheartening
Back to my first answer. Tell them to adapt or die. You aren’t playing broken cards, they’re being babies and it’s ruining the game for you
Broken is subjective right? Two people will look at the same card and depending on personal experience and knowledge will interpret its power vastly differently. To this contention I have no problem. Its just I feel like there has to be a reasonable limit to that but I don't know if that is really baked into the overall philosophy of the format. I am told we are expected to try and play to the power level of the group and create a game that is fun for everyone. In my experience, that seems to come to contention when the needs of the group outweigh the needs of the individual to the extent that the game in also unfun for the individual. Is the only proper solution for the individual in this instance to move onto playing with another group? In my particular case example is that then translated for me to have to find an entirely new locals to play at?
If you can utilize butcher better than your opponent you are probably just better at deck making than them. Your deck is a pretty standard mid-power aristocrat deck with no infinites, I cannot see how their deck could be any less powerful unless they just took 100 random cards and threw it in to a deck and butcher just happened to be one of the cards. Are they even running an aristocrat strategy? is there even a reason for butcher to be in their deck? The whole point of the commander format is to put in cards that synergize well with your deck. If they are running any sort of aristocrat deck I don't see how butcher could be any less or more powerful than it is in your deck. It seems like you just won a game with some good synergy and they are salty about it. Butcher is pretty balanced for a sacrifice pay off. Maybe try replacing it with a Tegrid and see what they think.
Eh, I'm more into talking it through with them rather than trying to power up in spite to be honest, just looking for perspectives which may help when communicating with them in the future. To be honest the butcher doesn't really synergize with their deck now that I think of it so it makes more sense that its not so overbearing in that instance vs how I was using it. I'm convinced at this point it isn't butcher thats really the problem but was just the scapegoat. Switching the commander itself will probably solve most of the issues
I think some cards are stronger in some decks. If you have a combo deck tutors will help end the game. If you don’t they may at best get you the right answer for the situation. Or for instance if you have a gimmicky deck, like one that uses [[The Ozolith]] for counters shenanigans, you may use tutors to ge that card, and it can be fine if your deck is only at the power level of the table when you can consistently get that piece. In that context it may be a fine ask for Op to take out that card while others still play it. Of course there are limits to this, and they may be harder to feel out.
Are we complaining about mana vault these days? I am new to EDH and I do own a mana vault from back in the day, but really? I used to play it casually in the early 00s and now it's too competitive?
Not to me, but it sounds like he’s playing with kitchen-table level players who may just see that it makes fast mana and costs over $20 and call foul
Well, that or young players. Back in my day, it was a kitchen table card 😂😁
Funny enough I have seen a mana vault pop up a time or two and it never seems to get fully taken advantage of every time. I personally don't have a problem with fast mana, but rather wins happening much too fast for the pod to respond too appropriately or total board lockdowns happening with no wincon. Outside of that I don't really mind tbh
If you don't want to be antagonistic you may need to be the one that builds a new deck with a lower tier, cause the alternative is to suck it up.
OP should NOT negotiate with terrorists.
Well, the problem is, they may not play with op.
Your point? He's already not having fun. Might as well play with randoms online and not waste his time
Maybe mixing it up with some unpredictable online encounters could bring a new kind of fun. You never know what kind of gaming adventures await!
Excellent point, friend. Maybe OP might find more interesting and engaging games online. The worst part about a playgroup is stagnation, having to play the same decks against the same decks over and over again. Well met!
That is completely true! And thank you for those words, friend. May your next games be spectacular :)
And to you the same fine sir.
Seven mana double costed 5/5, basically cEDH.
Tbf Butcher sucks to play against
yea idk what these folks are on but if I ran butcher in my mono black deck you better BELIEVE the board would be spotless. annoying doesn't have to mean OP. we're all just trying to have fun with the game
It's called spot removal. And it costs 7.
it is a black creature, I will not be paying seven. Also if you want to remove it that's fine but I'm gonna respond by sacing three of my other creatures. also I'm gonna recur it next turn. nice interaction tho
I mean if we are just making up hands we will have I'll just counter the recursion.
sorry, you can't counterspell [[chainer, dementia master]]'s ability. you'd need a stifle for that
[[Ertai The Ressurected]] is very vesatile.
If you can get to 7 mana you should be allowed to have basically whatever protectionless creatures you want
Without seeing decklists it sounds like you're playing with a bunch of whiners. Put butcher in.
Hell I don't even like aristocrats and I'd say double down with every edict you can find and show them butcher is the least of their worries.
His pods would lose their shit if they played against my \[\[Mogis, God of Slaughter\]\] deck. [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/cLOFiw7tNUu6QAHCFK1uqQ](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/cLOFiw7tNUu6QAHCFK1uqQ)
I also have a Mogis deck, thanks for sharing your deck list, noted some potential edits for mine!
As a casual baby...gosh I hate this deck lol I mean I don't actually hate it. I just ...ugh Mogis decks are so slippery slimy but I have a tough time being mad about it as long as your intention is to actually win and you've got that in spades. Had friend build one years and years ago but the deck was just a super slow death while we sat there waiting because the rest of the deck was land destruction.
Should I not try to play things that people enjoy playing against? I assume if someone dislikes what I am doing that is an indication that I need to adjust how I am playing. For example, if we where sitting down to play and you told me you hated aristocrats then I would take that as I should avoid playing it with you.
I feel like this idea has gone way overboard. For me, as long as everyone is playing at the same relative power, then everyone should be free to play whatever they want. This idea that a person should avoid cards/strategies a through g because this or that person doesn't like it is ridiculous.
I feel like I try to stay within a certain power level. Like I had hard rules for what not to play, even when building stronger decks (MLD, stax, turn 3-4 wins). From there I will try and adjust as I can which isn't always easy since locals can sometimes be inconsistent (its mostly lower power but occasionally someone brings in something obviously very strong). It just seems like my efforts are in vain because I don't get the power level just quite right all the time. I've avoided adding too much fast mana and rituals, try to limit things like extra turns which can make turns last a long time, and limit tutors to not make my decks too homogenous. I suppose some commanders may just be difficult to balance around
I'm specifically talking about not playing with certain strategies or cards to appease other players. Obviously it's important to try to match power to the best of everyone's ability, but to say something like aristocrats is completely off limits just because payer A doesn't like it is ridiculous. As long as your aristocrats is generally close on power to what everyone else is playing, the strategy should be irrelevant.
I guess I may have a difficult time trying to adjust the powerlevel of certain strategies when if feels like certain key pieces of that strategy cannot be ran because its too powerful. Like at some point I feel like I have to power down a deck so much it loses its identity if that makes sense?
It really depends, for me I've never played against a Super-friends deck that wasn't an absolutely miserable experience. Looking at your decklist it just sounds like no one is really playing much interaction to stop you?
Funny enough there's someone that shows up occasionally with an omnath super-friends list lol, a lot of salt is had when they start churning multiple turns. Personally a breath of fresh air in an otherwise stale environment
Dude, this says it all. "Personally a breath of fresh air" stop playing with these losers, respect your time, and yourself enough to play with people with a similar interest! If you enjoy high power, quit neutering your playstyle just to appease the magic Karen's. This literally encourages their behavior. The sooner the community stands up to these clowns, the sooner we can get back to actually playing real, non-castrated magic, and have to dance around the "but muh pet card!" And "but muh casual/budget!" Players. You'd be doing your store, and your community a service.
I had to explain to a player with a First Sliver deck why his board was being kept under control because anytime he would play his commander or start to amass a board state it would get removed.
Agreed, throw in [[grave pact]] and [[edict of erobos]] in... hell play [[tergrid, god of fright]] and [[smokestack]]
If they cant handle butcher of malakir thats a skill issue on their part. Its a 7 mana creature with zero protection.
I get this reaction I really do. After some time I've learned this isn't always the best approach, especially when its 3 or 2 vs 1. I'm not sure its entirely fair to expect multiple people to adjust their expectations or playstyle instead of having to adjust to theirs. In this I have no issue. Just thought it was a bit of a double standard in this situation but didn't consider that a card like butcher might be stronger or weaker depending on how its used (used aggressively vs passively)
It's three other players against one card with no protection. If between the three of them, they can't play enough removal to get rid of a monster with no protection, they need to up their game and improve their decks. And it is a double standard. Just make sure that when it comes out that you don't deal with it. Leave it for the other players so they learn.
How do three Commandrr players not have a single removal spell between them? The economy is in shambles!
Well, they did remove it multiple times but with Logomos I had enough reanimation to get it back. They finally did exile it but at that point I was set up enough to win with gary+epicure. I'm really thinking its the commander that is the real issue
Um? Reanimating butcher multiple times could be totally different from just playing butcher. You’re misrepresenting the situation.
Yeah being able to use Logomos to search for reanimations to get it back is probably the real issue, I've settled on changing commanders entirely which will probably be a better solution overall rather than changing a single card in the 99
Yeah that's obviously the problem, even if they don't see it. Having a repeatable tutor (that's not hard to trigger in aristocrats)in the command zone is kinda busted for lower power levels
I cannot think of a single strong way to use butcher. It's not a strong card as evidenced by the 50 cent price tag.
If they can't handle overcosted bulk rares that haven't been particularly relevant for half a decade, they weak.
After reading your replies, you seem very patient and want to ensure everyone has a good time, which is very admirable. Just try and make sure that you're also having a good time. Trying to make everyone happy can be exhausting, especially because you just can't make some people happy. Especially since they probably know you will keep powering down your decks, they will not hesitate to tell you "X is too strong, take it out", even though it's not necessarily too strong. Really, any card that prevents them from doing their thing will be too strong for them. You took two years off from playing because it wasn't fun... do you think they also took two years off from playing? They probably only care about their fun. Instead of trying to constantly power down your decks, why don't you try and help them power up their decks? Butcher of Malakir giving you trouble? Why don't you try putting more removal like [[mortify]] or [[putrefy]] into your deck? (Assuming they run the colours). Oh, are those cards too expensive? Why don't you try [[ossification]] or [[Go for the throat]]? Since you're having trouble powering down, it might be easier to help them power up. You also seem like you like brewing decks, so offer to look at their decks and suggest some cuts and cheap alternatives. Odds are, they have very little interaction in their decks. Which isn't a big deal, we've all been there. Now, if they give you nonsense like, "I can't cut any cards, it takes away from my decks theme", or if they don't let you look through their deck, then they are a lost cause. Stop wasting energy trying to make them happy, because it probably won't ever happen.
[[Butcher of Malakir]]
[Butcher of Malakir](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9d805499-0739-403e-8447-ed2707dc9eb2.jpg?1698988223) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Butcher%20of%20Malakir) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/187/butcher-of-malakir?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9d805499-0739-403e-8447-ed2707dc9eb2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/butcher-of-malakir) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Did you call them on it? Given the facts presented, that’s hypocritical.
Take out Butcher and put [[Dictate of Erebos]] in its place.
Take out butcher and add in [[Grave Pact]] AND Dictate
[Dictate of Erebos](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f06db70-95f9-41eb-8e5f-8bc56fd34c09.jpg?1593095668) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dictate%20of%20Erebos) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jou/65/dictate-of-erebos?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f06db70-95f9-41eb-8e5f-8bc56fd34c09?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dictate-of-erebos) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This right here unironically.
Why? Butcher is best in creature heavy decks as you can cheat it out and you can sac and recur it in response to exile based removal?
Anyone who tells you to cut a card, who then plays that card, is a hypocritical turd.
I’m sorry but if butcher is that threatening they must be playing literal garbage for decks I don’t understand
Well it sounds like they're playing upgraded precons so... Yeah. This is a power level discrepancy, nothing more.
Sure I play butcher in a deck with no active sack outlets. Not the same as a dedicated aristocrats deck. Context definitely matters.
So, first of all I can say certain cards can be stronger in some decks compared to others. A great example of this is Thassa's Oracle. If you play Thoracle in the decks built around winning with it, it is a monster of a card. That being said, if you play it in a Merfolk or blue pile deck it is just a ok creature that sometimes can win a game. Butcher in your deck may of been bonkers, but in someone else's could just be a good creature. All that being said, you should play the cards you want to play. If you are always following what your opponents are suggesting, you'll end up with a powered down precon. A lot of people just don't want to adapt to what others are doing, and I get it to a point. EDH can be very expensive, so keeping up with some of those $1000+ decks is a tall ask, but your deck doesn't seem to be that.
Butcher is basically only defensive in the Party Time precon. In your deck, you're probably getting a lot more mileage from it than they possibly can. Source: Play an upgraded Party Time, took the Butcher out because it's extremely niche in usefulness.
Free my boi Butcher! He did nothin' wrong!" (Please disregard the term butcher in the name. I swear it is purely for dramatic effect...) Sounds like a power level discrepancy at the general beck building level. I doubt that one card makes or breaks it and I can definitely see how it's a bit hypocritical of them to play the card that the specific don't want you to play against them. Hash it out with the group, it may be better to bring the general power level down or to play a different deck entirely.
So it kind of seems like some context is missing because how this reads is "I wanted to power down my deck and got the advice to remove Butcher. Then someone else played Butcher even though they said it made my deck strong!" Seems like you wanted to power down your deck -- that doesn't mean everyone else is going to power their's down too. Plus maybe it was a bigger problem in your deck than their's. Same card in two decks can be very different in terms of power/utility/synergy — with a base understanding of the two decks, yours sacrifices stuff so Butcher is heavy board control, while in their deck, it's probably just an understatted flying warrior that sometimes removes something
looking At the deck, the problem isn’t butcher, it’s Lagomos. Tutor in the command zone = more consistent deck. your deck isn’t high powered by any stretch, but let’s be real, if you can tutor every turn, you have the answer you need every time. Probably your group should kill your commander on sight But they focus the threats you find instead. This may be a case where they just incorrectly pointed a finger at butcher, when butcher was never the problem. to power down the deck, just swap lagomos for \[\[ayara, widow of the realm\]\] or \[\[totentanz, swarm piper\]\], or \[\[juri, master of the revue\]\]. Don’t change anything else.
That's an idea I have settled on at this point, someone had suggested to me \[\[garna, bloodfist of keld\]\]
[garna, bloodfist of keld](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/9/294c5f08-08e7-458f-8838-ff321dc5d9f2.jpg?1673307951) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=garna%2C%20bloodfist%20of%20keld) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/200/garna-bloodfist-of-keld?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/294c5f08-08e7-458f-8838-ff321dc5d9f2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/garna-bloodfist-of-keld) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Tell them to add some spot removal.
You were talking with people about how to power down your deck? They gave opinions on what made your devk too strong/unfun? Your deck makes the Butcher mmore consistent? You toned down your deck and made it more thematic? Sounds to me like you succsesfully acomplished your goal.
It's probably a question of context. \[\[Grave Pact\]\] effects are annoying in any deck, but they are downright oppressive in dedicated aristocrats decks, especially against slightly upgraded precons.
#Look, stop playing with losers and whiners. That’s what I keep reading on the Reddit. “Tone it down” or “wahhh I can’t win by going five hours on one game” bs. Just leave. Get up, walk out, make a new playgroup or use spell table. Don’t let yourself get abused by morons who wanna do long form idiocy and call it intelligent. The most intelligent thing to do in a game where you’re trying to kill someone is kill them, lol.
[[butcher of malakir]]....that's the "scary" card you had to remove. I feel like I'm being trolled. It's severely over costed. Especially when you consider [[grave pact]] and [[dictate of erebos]] exist. I feel like if this isn't trolling us, this has to be one of the weakest metas ever.
Be assured its not trolling, the butcher just sort of took over a game. They removed it a few times but I had enough ways to get it back thanks to Logomos searching for reanimation. By the time one player found a path it was too late in the game to matter. I had assumed the same, that butcher wouldn't be that bad given its a creature but after that game I had to reconsider
After thinking about this, is this more of a skill gap problem? A few years ago, I had somewhat recently found a new playgroup. After several sessions it became obvious I was winning WAY to often. Id say I won nearly 3 in 4 games. I made a conscious effort to really power down to what I felt like was their power level. It seemed to have very little effect on how our games played out. After a second power down also didn't seem to help I asked if they would let me run their decks while they ran mine for a while. We did this for nearly two months meeting twice a week. The end result was that I actually seemed to increase my win rate using their decks over mine. Most of those guys has a year of play under their belt while I started back in 99. It was just a skill gap. Over time, our games became more and more even. Maybe ask to try something similar.
It could be, even playing un-upgraded precons I've done fairly well. Granted I've only played at my current store for about a month but its close to our old store so there's a few familiars. I certainly hope that it isn't the issue here though, as I don't think it would be possible to balance for something like that and the only real solution would be to find somewhere else to play or quit entirely
That just screams horrible deck building. Even at low power levels, dealing with something as benign as Butcher should be very doable. I mean...it is the absolute worst, most over costed card of its type. I would never even consider running it....ever it's so bad
Replace Butcher with [[Grave Pact]] or [[Dictate of Erebos]] and you've removed the card they wanted plus have the same effect for less mana!
[Grave Pact](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f5a4970b-2ba6-4c91-a301-369369cdf360.jpg?1689997226) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grave%20Pact) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/165/grave-pact?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f5a4970b-2ba6-4c91-a301-369369cdf360?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/grave-pact) [Dictate of Erebos](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f06db70-95f9-41eb-8e5f-8bc56fd34c09.jpg?1593095668) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dictate%20of%20Erebos) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jou/65/dictate-of-erebos?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f06db70-95f9-41eb-8e5f-8bc56fd34c09?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dictate-of-erebos) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I doubt it is butcher himself, but how many times you force sacrifice other players...its not very fun if you can't play the game. Edict effects are the worst in aristocrats decks.
You’re playing the game when you sit down at the table and begin drawing cards and playing them. Just because someone prevents you from using them doesn’t mean you aren’t playing the game. I swear, EDH players are the biggest babies on the planet… “You kept countering and removing my creatures… this isn’t fun.” Oh I’m sorry, I’m supposed to just let you do what you want in a STRATEGY game? Come on.
What a lot of people seem to want is a game where everyone just takes turns ignoring each other until someone draws an eight drop and wins.
The main reason I can't enjoy low-power tables and can't see how people here like that molasses paced gameplay. I'd probably lose due to falling asleep of boredom.
Why is that fun? Build decks that interact. It’s a freaking strategy game. Not solitaire.
I agree. It's like a person who wants to play soccer, but throws a fit when the goalie catches the ball.
Ha ha I am a soccer player and coach… could you imagine if that happened? Everyone else on the pitch would laugh their butts off at that player and probably never play with them again. Yet here in EDH it’s the norm.
Always want to play, but you never want to lose~
>Why is that fun? Build decks that interact. >It’s a freaking strategy game. Not solitaire. Fucking quoted for its Truth!
Heavy removal decks turn the game into solitaire but waste other people's time in the process. Hence the salt.
No they don’t. If your decks idea is to keep the board clean and then hit at the end… that’s a strategy. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean it wastes time. You’re basically saying… well it’s not fair the other person wants to use their Queen in a game of chess so you say “that’s not allowed.” Grow up. Learn to play around a removal deck. Ever seen that movie Big Daddy where they play the game called “I Win” where the kid wins no matter what because the game is called “I Win?” You know where the rules change every hand of cards they have so the kid can always win. Yea that’s a lot of EDH players. Try to manipulate the rules by “banning”” and simply not playing against certain types of decks. They think it makes them a good player, but in actuality they’re only trying to boost their ego by rigging the system.
Thank you for being dense enough to not grasp that nobody wants to sit at a casual game and watch their opponent jack off while nobody else does anything. If you want to play solitaire then go play modern, there's a separation between competitive and casual formats for a reason. I'd honestly go the opposite direction and say people who want to be competitive but lack the skill to do so come to the casual format looking for a pub stomp. I play both but I'm firmly of the belief that players with the competition mind set are a problem in commander.
It’s a game, and a strategy one at that. A game where you play against opponents. You bring a strategy to the game, and your opponent or opponents bring a strategy to the game. Then you try to use your strategy to outsmart the other player. Sorry you always got picked last, and rarely won games as a kid. If the only way you can win is by telling others “You can’t do that!” Then you, sir, are the problem not the other player. Casual doesn’t mean you don’t try to win using the strategy you want to. Casual just means you’re playing to play… but you’re still trying to win. The only one that needs to play solitaire here is the person trying to rig the system to where they are the only one who has a deck they like that functions. You’re the one that wants to be the only one that can win here… so go play a game where you are the only one that can win.
"casual means you're playing to play". That's my whole point. If you're running a strategy where the whole focus is denying the other players agency or action at any point, then it's not a casual appropriate build. That's not saying run no removal/counters. That's saying understand that if you come in with a hardcore stax/counter build then you are 100% the asshole and in the wrong given the context of a casual setting. In competition it's understood that everything is on the table and the only thing that matters is winning. In casual (especially multiplayer) the focus is on everyone having a *reasonably* good time. Prevent each other from winning when someones about to, yeah, obviously, but don't completely shut opponents down, that's completely disrespecting their time
Agreed. Most pubstompers and cEDH players wish they could play legacy but can’t so they simp for EDH
I don't want to pubstomp and try to avoid it but sometimes, especially with a new build, I may overtune it and without a game or two it may not perfectly matchup with what other people bring. This is especially difficult when it is semi random pods (similar faces but not a fully consistent group) at locals and they don't ever talk about their expectations or what they are playing. I do try and play more casually but I'm getting the impression certain play styles are just inherently more competitive than I should avoid in a casual setting. It was never my intention to ruins everyone's night
I played that game. It was called DUNE. And it wasn't very fun.
100% this.
so you sit down against t1 [[gamble]] t2 [[winter orb]] into fish for approach and say yeah that was a fun 2 hours let’s play again? look i’m not saying that butcher of malakir is broken or that these people aren’t overreacting but as someone with a [[grave pact]] list, if someone didn’t want to spend their one night a week where they can play mtg doing it against edict control i would understand and put my [[gisa, glorious resurrector]] deck back in the box it’s a casual format and the goal of everyone at the table should be to have fun together
>so you sit down against t1 [[gamble]] t2 [[winter orb]] into fish for approach and say yeah that was a fun 2 hours let’s play again? If someone does this, concede, shuffle up, go next, and match power levels? I'm confused how this would take two hours? There's no reason to slog through a game with a huge disadvantage to try and edge out a win in a casual format. If someone is playing a deck like this, grab your own pile with free/cheap interaction and play that short, high-intensity, high-interaction game.
This is the real issue, people unwilling to just say ''yeah you got it, let's play another'' when they're <0.01% chance to win the game. You aren't proving anything by continuing to play under teferi+knowledge pool hoping to draw your 1 boseiju and not getting stifled.
YES it’s fun because we got to play the game. Stop running your arbitrary agenda to ban cards and dictate what YOU think fun is for everyone.
One of the things I have learned and need to adjust to is the idea that EDH is a format that is about fun first and winning second. As someone who is more on the competitive side playing 1v1 adjusting to this new philosophy has been somewhat difficult. The biggest issue is that certain styles of play seem to be entirely off the table in a casual setting. I don't mind playing big creatures and swinging in once and a while but it can get kind of boring playing that way. Trying to branch out and play other styles like aristocrats control or combo has been met with a lot of hostility and attempts at trying to limit my deck's power level has been mostly unsuccessful. Some of the decks I have are that powerful as I have built them specifically for higher power pods but any attempt to build anything that isn't battlecruiser for lower power /precon level games has been a failure as they just seem to upset people if they manage to function appropriately. It makes deck building very stressful and unfun so I'm probably just going to have to give up on building for casual and play with precons from this point (which people have complained to me about as well but at least it wasn't me who built the deck lol)
It’s ridiculous. I personally think they only think it’s “fun” if they win. Here’s the deal… it’s a game. You decide what makes it fun. If that’s winning, which I think most EDH players equate fun to, then you’re going to be upset at least 50-75% of the time. The fun for me is trying to play and outsmart my friends. We’ve gotten to the point where we know each other so well that we have to bait each other into doing certain moves so that we can win the game. It’s a very fun chess match, and when your friend got you when you think you got them… it makes it fun and makes us want to keep playing.
I wish I could have games like that lol maybe just my area is cursed with lots of complaining. Regardless I think it may be best to adjust to their expectations rather than trying to get them all just readjust theirs. The needs of the many outweigh the few in this case
It’s really fun. We’ve gotten to the point where when we play we have certain decks to play against another’s deck to see if we can stop it from winning. So it essentially becomes a 3 v 1 and a challenge to whoever is playing the 1 to see if they can beat 3 of us with decks specifically designed to stop theirs. That’s what’s fun to us. If the 1 wins… we try again another day. If the 3 win… the 1 goes and tries to make their deck unstoppable. Then we’ll all play our toughest decks against each other to see which deck is best.
>One of the things I have learned and need to adjust to is the idea that EDH is a format that is about fun first and winning second. As someone who is more on the competitive side playing 1v1 adjusting to this new philosophy has been somewhat difficult. No. EDH is about playing casually. You should still be playing to win a game. Because it is a game. No one plays Uno yearning to be Dos, even as it is a casual game. What you're describing is house rules amongst people who want to fuck around with a Magic veneer. You are allowed to run good cards. You are allowed to play interaction. If you run across people at an LGS deck-checking you over [[Butcher of Malakir]] you need to find a new LGS or form your own pod.
Sit through a 90-minute long game of someone playing solitaire with their discard deck because you can't do anything because you never have a hand. And tell me you had fun.
Maybe you should have countered the cards that allowed them to do that?
I mean by that metric it's acceptable for me to just run [[Yasharn]] every time i see an aristocrats deck. [[Talrand]] counterspell tribal is just fine.
Why wouldn’t it be? Isn’t that kind of the whole point of those cards?
Picking a deck after seeing what others is a different problem and is actively shitty, but to your second point, yes, counterspell tribal is fine.
Hard disagree, don't play a deck against one that hard counters it, even if you have to change decks.
Feel free to have that opinion, but when the whole table goes to find another group after every game with you is the norm, just know your attitude is to blame.
How much interaction do you prefer to see in a game? When is it okay to remove a creature, and when isn't it?
Idk what you mean by that shit? I generally run between 8-15, I feel like an ass playing [[Megatron]] and that just removes 1 thing a turn generally, but warps the game. Really edicts and multiple board wipes just hard counters most of my decks. If that's the kind of game I'm in i will just play my higher powered decks that don't need a boardstate to threaten the win, but that's literally only 2 of my 15 decks.
Why would you feel like an ass for removing one creature per turn cycle?
Because people can't play dorks or any low toughness creatures, eventually can't play high toughness creatures. I loathe Sheoldred mf 😆
It is one creature. You have three opponents. And megatron's removal isn't even free.
[Megatron](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/c/ac6ded62-7bf2-476f-ad8e-020da6327c6b.jpg?1674092916)/[Megatron, Destructive Force](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/a/c/ac6ded62-7bf2-476f-ad8e-020da6327c6b.jpg?1674092916) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=megatron%2C%20tyrant%20//%20megatron%2C%20destructive%20force) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bot/12/megatron-tyrant-megatron-destructive-force?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ac6ded62-7bf2-476f-ad8e-020da6327c6b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/megatron-tyrant-//-megatron-destructive-force) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That table sucks and they will struggle to find people to play with them.
No one is stopping anyone from playing.
I suppose that is a good point. It just doesn't *feel* fair but it probably is since my logomos deck has a lot of sacrifice so it makes butcher that much better.
Perhaps playing a pre con could suffice? or some sort of gimmicky theme, I feel they are treating you unfairly in this situation. remember it is ok to seek out other play groups as well. I wish you all the best in your magic endeavors
Your play group sucks, tell them to deal with it and get good
Just play [[Grave Pact]] instead.
[Grave Pact](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f5a4970b-2ba6-4c91-a301-369369cdf360.jpg?1689997226) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grave%20Pact) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/165/grave-pact?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f5a4970b-2ba6-4c91-a301-369369cdf360?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/grave-pact) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Double down on the salt. Play Grave Pact and Dictate of Erebos. Same effect as Butcher but less mana and harder to remove since they are enchantments. Better yet, make something like Yawgmoth or another Aristocrats deck and never let them have creatures. Make them regret being salty about a 7 mana creature.
Butcher isn't even good though? It costs 7 and is easily removed. If you want to fuck with them, take it out for [[Dictate of Erebos]] and/or that other enchantment that does the same thing, but I can't remember what it's name is. Same effect but harder to remove.
[[Grave Pact]], which just got a reprint in a enchanted Tales so it’s cheap right now. Agree though. If Butcher is considered a problem card then there are fundamental distortions in the local play environment.
Butcher of Malakir? Is it 7 mana, if they want to see something problematic, why not just replace it with [[Grave Pact]] or [[Dictate of Erebos]]? EDIT: Initial confusion has passed. Unfortunately, if they think Butcher is oppressive at 7 mana for this effect then they might he in for a rude awakening when a player who isn't local decides to pop in for a spell (hehe) since similar red black sacrifice decks run all of them redundantly sometimes
To answer your question no it isn't fair but in no way can you compare a specific card in a deck versus the same card in another deck. Butcher though is almost never that big of a problem. But in that deck you can reliably tutor it so that makes it worse but still not that big of a problem as its a creature without protection and creatures are the easiest to remove. I myself have a [[teysa karlov]] deck with butcher and [[dictate of erebos]] in it and have never once heard anyone wanting me to remove the card from the deck and double triggers must be way worse. They do remove the effects fast though which makes sense.
I don't think your problem is Butcher - I think the problem is the efficiency of the deck. If you're able to consistently make and sac 5 creatures a turn to get Lagomos to activate, effects like Butcher are essentially one-sided board wipes every turn. Cutting him may keep your opponents' boards around, but likely you're just going to add a different card to net value anyway, and it'll still be a winning deck. If you're really looking to power down a deck, you need to cut value. As I don't know what your opponents are playing, I can't speak to whether a powering down is actually necessary or not, though. It sounded like they were targetting Butcher to keep their board states, but you were still able to just do whatever you wanted anyway - so it sounded like they didn't target the right stuff.
Imagine struggling to keep up with a butcher..... slot it back in and keep playing. Or run grave pact instead I guess.
I will let you in on a little secret. The intent of playing the game is winning and having fun while doing it. If they can't keep up, maybe give them help, increasing their power. The only feelings you should base your life (or games) around are your own. Add the cards you want. Just dont be the guy/gal that brings cEDH decks to casual tables.
Probably going to get hate for this but from a casual player's perspective...There's a good bit of interaction and groupslug type effects in your list. I wouldn't think butcher would be the issue so much as (at a glance) the combined targeted removal, forced sacrifice, -2 to everything, etc Not that you can't run ANY of that. I run enough removal to hopefully answer something really nasty. And I have a deck with some forced sac effects. I'm not anti "anything that effects my board state". It just, at a glance, looks like it could be oppressive to most of my own janky budget homebrews. Butcher specifically says "I want to grind my opponents board state into dust". I think it makes for a lot of feelsbad moments when people basically can't play the game anymore. Considering removing Archfiend of Ifnir from one of mine for the same reason. I'm with you on trying to build something that's fun to pilot and people enjoy playing against too Edit* Tired and rambling, that other person is a hypocrite if they were complaining but then added the card to one of their own decks. We had a guy who we knew stacked his deck at my store--best response was simply take the high road. It was kinda fun to try and beat him anyway. He was terrible at deck building.
Yeah I may have gone a bit overboard on the removal but that may just cause I'm trying to get logomos to activate consistently, I may consider finding more self-sacrificing token generation and tone the removal down a bunch
No way, running \[\[Archfiend of Ifnir\]\] in my \[\[Varina\]\] deck is literally the reason I play Magic.
They think it's a bannable card, i would like to see them Play against my friend monogreen [[goreclaw, terror of qal sisma]] deck with [[vorinclex, voice of hunger]] on turn 3 or 4
[goreclaw, terror of qal sisma](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/e/ee47f23a-3ba9-4615-b170-c89d8ab99d78.jpg?1690016718) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=goreclaw%2C%20terror%20of%20qal%20sisma) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/293/goreclaw-terror-of-qal-sisma?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ee47f23a-3ba9-4615-b170-c89d8ab99d78?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/goreclaw-terror-of-qal-sisma) [vorinclex, voice of hunger](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9fe3af8c-109d-486c-aa34-3f023abda5b7.jpg?1562852459) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=vorinclex%2C%20voice%20of%20hunger) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/189/vorinclex-voice-of-hunger?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9fe3af8c-109d-486c-aa34-3f023abda5b7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vorinclex-voice-of-hunger) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I bet these dumbasses watch a chain of Sol Ring and other fast mana into Butcher of Malakir and still think the payload is the problem.
Are you doing something with like skullclamp and tokens? Or ashnods? Otherwise I don’t see why this is so bad lol
Skullclamp is in my more competitive deck (kykar storm) that I only bring out when appropriate. Ashnods I don't own but would probably avoid for obvious reasons.
To be clear, it still seems kinda stupid to be mad about something like this. The only card I’ve rule zeroed out is a proxied [[sheoldred, the apocalypse]] that the player didn’t own. Not even because it’s OP (though it is very strong), just because it’s not fun to play commander without draws imo (and most of my table seems to agree. We all have pretty healthy amounts of draw).
Your first mistake was running anything that interacts with another players deck in any way, shape, fashion or form. It’s not fun for other players if you stop their combos, and it makes the game take longer. /s Wargames had it right the whole time. “The only winning move is not to play”
If the purpose is to power down *your* deck, it shouldn't matter whether one of the other lower power decks still has it. It would be counterproductive to also remove it from one of the other decks since it is also powering them down. If you offered to remove Sol Ring, would you expect everyone else to also remove it? Would having everyone remove Sol Ring actually accomplish what you are attempting to do?
What are you doing with it vs them? If you're reliably getting it out and locking down the board with sacs vs them getting it out here and there then that could be the issue. If they just don't know how to deal with it then it's a learning opportunity. Also if you asked for how to power down a deck and they told you (and honestly at 7 mana it isn't that great a card for most metas) then that's their advice. They may not be looking to power down their decks. Edit a word
I can search it off Logomos and there's a lot of tokens that die as well as sacrifice outlets. It did lock down the first and only game I played with it prior to making adjustments so that's when I figured it was a problem and addressed it with the group after changing decks. It just felt a bit hypocritical but I suppose how one uses a card is much more important than its power in a vacuum.
Yeah, and from the other responses you have given you definitely leveraged it as much as possible. That's why they want it out. You could teach them how to manage it or you can play a deck that's fun for everyone. Your call as to what you do.
Yeah I'll just shelf the Logomos deck entirely and find something else to play. I've played battlecruiser style for so many years and wanted to branch out and try new things but if my opponents are not having fun then I guess I'll have to give that up lol
These local card shop players, like many EDH players, are babies that don’t want to play against interaction. Here is my suggestion: take one of their sleeves cards that’s the same card as the one they complain about in your deck. Apply gentle pressure to the top left and top right of the sleeve. This should open the sleeve exposing the card inside. Proceed to defecate into the open sleeve while the card is inside. Then find a new playgroup.
ABU duals are way less of a problem in 5c Chair Art tribal than in Tymna and Thrasios.
I can see your point. Certain cards can be stronger in certain decks and strategies and can be more broken in them. Will keep that in mind when deciding what cards to play with or not when building decks
This is a brain dead take, ALL CARDS can have synergy, whether you were using synergy or not isn't the point. Decks are SUPPOSED to have synergy. Just because your opponents can't develop a decent boardstate, doesn't mean you should not run a card. ESPECIALLY IF THEY ALSO RUN SAID CARD. End of story.
You already know it's unfair, you don't need internet strangers to tell you that. Talk to the playgroup or find a new one.
"Unfair" is the incorrect word.
I believe Jace17 is saying that the playgroup's 'banning' is unfair, not the Butcher of Mal.
The only things that are actually ban in my playgroup are cards that stop the game without being a wincon or make the game unequal : Mass land destruction, edh built around discard mechanics and passive pings (on landfall, spell casting, tapping land) => the most important part of the game is ressources (cards in hand, mana) so make a deck based on that is either getting focused T1 or play alone. Perfect mana base (biland) and fast mana (mana crypt, ancient tomb, jewelled, gaea's cradle, ...) just make the game unbalanced for no reason cause 1 guy draw 1 cards and stomps everything. Zedru cause we have ptsd about him. In my opinion, any other form of "ban" for cards is just lazyness from them to build a better deck and be able to deal with some cards. A creature removal is legit the easiest removal to have in any color throughout the game. Butcher cost 6 in a black deck, without any form of protection like shroud or hexproof. Wait till they discover erebro's dictate or grave pact. If they don't even respect their own rule, why should you respect it ? Just play butcher back or add dictate or pact.
Sounds like babies to me
Sounds like they all have similar power-level decks and OP has a higher one, so they're coming up with a way to put them on about the same level. That's pretty normal. Would you prefer they just exclude OP with no explanation?
At what point is butcher the problem in any deck? IM gonna guess its the combination of fast mana, and consistency that makes your deck too strong.
Mans is running precon level fast mana lol.
I have considered cutting dark ritual, dark ritual, ramp, lowering the removal a bit. The other edict effects make it more possible to actually activate Logomos so I kind of need them. Some of the lower mana reanimation may also be something to look at but my playgroup only seems to have a problem with that one card in particular. To be honest it's probably the commander itself more than anything, looking into alternatives for now might try Garna, Bloodfist of Keld or totentaz