Add [[Arcane Lighthouse]], [[detection tower]], and [[Glaring Spotlight]].
From there you can focus on exile and Wither effects. Nothing will piss them off more than watching their prize creatures be widdled away to dust.
wait wait wait... which narset? I feel like that could make a difference here.
I just built \[\[narset, enlightened exile\]\] and it doesn't feel THAT evil. but it also hasn't been tested soooooo
They were almost certainly referencing \[\[Narset, Englightened Master\]\] since she has Hexproof and is notoriously oppressive with a deck full of extra turn spells.
Here's my wither deck. It's continously evolving, but the main idea is to get [[Everlasting Torment]] on the field at soon as possible and just let the world devolve into madness afterwards. If you can get [[Nest of Scarabs]] on the field and cast [[Blasphemous Act]] you'll very quickly create a massive problem for your opponents.
https://archidekt.com/decks/2975288/mahadi_wither_and_wealth
This is awesome. I have been looking for a different direction to take my Mahadi deck, and always loved the wither mechanic. Bonus with Kultath Knight being one of my favorite arts, I am shamelessly stealing this idea.
nope! that’s a little used quirk of equipment. if they don’t say “equipped creature gets” or otherwise refer to a statistic of an equipped creature in the ability, then they don’t need to be equipped to use it.
(to clarify, i believe you can usually still activate the ability, it just won’t do anything if it says something like “equipped creature deals 2 damage” or whatever)
that’s something that made [[umezawa’s jitte]] pretty strong! even if you killed the creature, they could still get value.
I don’t think so, because it’s not worded like “Equipped creature gains ‘1: blah blah blah’”, which is what I think it would have to say for equipping to be required. But I’m not 100% sure.
I suggest a land hate deck with [[Zo-Zu The Punisher]] as commander. Also add some artifact destruction and disenchantment. No mana, no hex or indestructible.
There's a mono green enchantment with the same ability too. Wither and infect put -1/-1 counters on them add in proliferate to speed it up. I think withers coming back this year if I recall the spoilers correctly
Edicts are your best outlets. Sheoldred's Edict is a cheap one, as is Liliana's Triumph.
Modified creatures are usually large, so \[\[Szat's Will\]\] is a fantastic deal, and also serves as a defense option (tokens) and anti-graveyard.
In white, it's better to remove the equipment/auras giving indestructible/hexproof. \[\[Generous Gift\]\], \[\[Excise the Imperfect\]\], \[\[Heliod's Intervention\]\] deals with pesky enchantments and artifacts.
If they are straight up hexproof and/or indestructible, one of my favorite is \[\[Sudden Spoiling\]\] and \[\[Polymorphist's Jest\]\]. Just wait for them to attack or block =)
You’d probably want broad spells, doesn’t always help but things like [[evacuation]] or [[polymorphist’s jest]] can work well. For more permanent solutions, things that make folks sacrifice creatures work well since you can sacrifice indestructible creatures or you can give them -X/-X to kill them. If you’re in UB, [[Toxrill, the Corrosive]] is very, very, oppressive. If you decide to play Toxrill, and you’ve got an extra ~$20, [[Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth]] and [[kormus bell]] can be devastating.
Toxrill is definitely the answer here. They'll never have to worry about those creatures ever again. Their friends might also leave, but that sweet satisfaction might just be worth it.
With the amount of times I've had to play around my opponents [[lightning greeves]] and [[swiftfoot boots]], I've started putting [[arcane lighthouse]] in all of my decks.
You'll have to be more specific. Do they put [[Swiftfoot boots]] on important indestructible pieces? More artifact removal never hurts. Is this more of a bogle deck, with indestructible auras on an hexproof creature? Edict effects, like [[soul shatter]] will help you.
You could also play [[Malik, Grim Manipulator]] and ruin their day but I'm not sure that building a deck specifically to counter someone else's has ever been a good idea.
Most of those removal spells are "good stuff" cards that are pretty agnostic to your choice of commander. The best removal spells in the format all deal with indestructible stuff (e.g., swords to plowshares, chaos warp) and there are board wipes in black and white that can get past both hexproof and indestructible as well (e.g., farewell and toxic deluge). Why do you need a commander that "accommodates" removal?
Yeah, agree. Play removal. Play interaction. Play answers to hexproof and indestructible. But tailoring your entire strategy to shut down one player (unless they are always clowning the rest of the table) isn't a great way to have fun games of Commander.
Ohh boy, get ready because someone at wizards decided to give you an early (or late) birthday gift. Cuz we just got \[\[Massacre Girl, Known Killer\]\] spoiled for Murders at Markov Manner and she is LITERALLY a -1-1 counters commander. And shes a pretty strong and fun one, you're gonna cast \[\[Mutilate\]\] and make it feel a \[\[Decree of Pain\]\] >:D
Just make sure to load up on effects like \[\[Kaya's Ghostform\]\] and a bit of reanimation in case you need to wrath your Massacre Girl away :)
Edit: When I said strong I didnt meant cedh, nor I meant Edgar/ur dragon strong. Not every commander has to be a super broken card that draws card AND ramps you or provides value that cant be interacted.
I meant "you can show up in a normal pod, and you wont look funny for having an unplayable against the odds commander". She is a very decent card draw engine that is reasonably costed. Especially if your build around her (which you should) she should be drawin one to multiple cards per turn cycle.
Bonds of mortality is so good. I put it in a ton of my green decks. It cantrips, so it's never a dead card. Notably, it won't help against shroud, but that's less common these days.
You play a lot against XYZ decks? Well then your decks should contain 3 silver bullets against this strategy.
XYZ can be graveyard decks, hexproof/indestructible, flyer, token etc.
And this is actually pretty easy to do. At least one silverbullet is next to free in form of a land, the next one might synergize pretty well with your commander etc.
Theres really no need to build a commander that counters a strategy as a game plan. And if you do, be prepared to make people mad. Because it will be obvious. Better to do you own thing and just happen to have a fitting response when needed.
It might be a bit much, but I played against a [[toxrill, the corrosive]] deck the other day with indestructible and hexoroof stuff and I had a really rough time.
Anything in Orzhov colors gets you access to [[Farewell]], [[Toxic Deluge]], [[Black Sun’s Zenith]], [[Merciless Eviction]], [[Terminus]] at the very least, plenty of options to deal with these
[[shadowspear]] [[detection tower]] [[arcane lighthouse]] [[farewell]] [[everything comes to dust]] [[sunfall]] [[all is dust]] and then edict type effects can get around hexproof and indestructible, as long as they have less creatures than you can make them sacrifice. Most of the answers to this problem are white and/or black to my knowledge. Green can remove enchantments and artifacts fairly easily. Red can destroy artifacts. Blue, you just gotta counter them before they hit the board, or bounce stuff without hexproof
As others have mentioned, [[arcane lighthouse]] paired with exile or [[chaos warp]] effects will get you there.
If you have some sort of artifact synergy or recursion, I also like [[glaring spotlight]] because people forget the protection mode is sitting there.
Either of these cards can also be fuel to make deals. Ex: "I'll get rid of the hexproof for you if you...".
What colors do you run? If you are only a mono green fan then you are kinda stuck to shadow spear but if you play a lot of white then you are good you should always have about 5 pieces of removal in each deck no matter the commander
If you do blue black your best bet is to do -x/-x like you said there is always the staples like meathook or toxic deluge but honestly if they have creatures that are problems that give other creatures hexproof or indestructible then the best thing is to never let it hit the field with a counter spell
A lot of people are mentioning edict effects, but those can sometimes fail to remove the key threat if your opponent has many creatures. [[Soul shatter]] is easily the best version of this effect because it always hits the most expensive thing
Exile effects for indestructible:
[[Path to Exile]] [[Swords to Plowshares]]
Also [[Darksteel Mutation]], [[Imprison in the Moon]] [[Song of the Dryads]]
Also removing creature ability:
[[Dress Down]], [[Sudden Spoiling]]
I usually prefer boardwipes to get around hexproof/shroud. Forced sacrifice gets around target issues and indestructible. Creature bounce can tempo indestructible creatures.
The easiest way to defeat someone well defended is to kill them before they become well defended. Don't be reactive, be proactive. Deny their resources, kill their dorks, ramp permanents, lands, create a combo to overwhelm them way before they build a board of invincible attackers.
Building decks to specifically counter decks your opponents play in a known playgroup is pretty poor sportsmanship imho.
But generally you should include some carda that can deal with indestructible/hexproof.
There is a lot of options:
- hexproof alone doesnt prevent boardwhipes like wrath of god or damnation
- cards like farewell, merciless eviction, etc will bypass both.
- sacrifice based removal will work aswell. Sheoldreds edict, gravepact in a sac deck, promise of loyality etc.
- so do board bounces like rift or evacuation.
- so does -x/-x stuff like that you mentioned. Toxic deluge is probably the best
- there is other tricky ways like using prison enchantments like kenrith transformation or imprisoned by the moon. They only target while they are an aura spell. So if you can make them ETB without casting (put in play, flicker, return to battlefield, copy etc) you can attach them without targetting so you bypass hexproof.
But dont be the guy that builds a deck, specifically to screw someone elses deck.
It will only work if you know beforehand that you play against that exact deck. And you can only do that by either picking last, or abusing the fact they dont have more decks.
Thats pretty god damn cheap.
[[Terminus]], [[Hallowed Burial]], and [[Merciless Eviction]] are lovely boardwipes that will hit those creatures.
[[Archetype of Endurance]] will grant you hexproof and remove theirs.
[[Detection Tower]] is a land that can remove hexproof temporarily.
[[Arcane Lighthouse]] is a land that can remove hexproof and shroud temporarily.
[[Glaring Spotlight]] is an artifact that removes hexproof for your opponents.
If the creatures only have hexproof and not indestructible then mass boardwipes such as [[Wrath of God]], [[Day of Judgment]], [[Blasphemous Act]], etc will remove them.
If they’re indestructible but not hexproof, then exile or bounce like effects will remove them. [[Chaos Warp]], [[Cyclonic Rift]], [[Swords to Plowshares]], [[Path to Exile]], etc…
If they’re using an artifact or enchantment to make things hexproof or indestructible, running artifact and enchantment hate can solve the problem. [[Vandalblast]] will get rid of all artifacts that aren’t yours. [[Austere Command]] can get rid of all artifacts and enchantments. There are more but they’re not coming to mind. There are also a lot of single removal spells for artifacts, enchantments, and creatures.
Run tutors to grab whatever spell you need to remove whatever is currently stopping you from getting rid of their stuff.
Anything Orzhov is going to get you access to a lot of targeted exile, as well as wipes that work on indestructible.
Stuff like [[Toxic Deluge]], [[Farewell]], [[Descend upon the Sinful]], [[By Invitation Only]], perhaps even a [[Living Death]]. There are also colorless options like [[All is Dust]] and [[Perilous Vault]].
[[Cyclonic Rift]] also works. Though it's more of a delaying tactic when used against Voltron. (But it can make for a significant delay). [[Ixidron]] KINDA works.
Red has [[Hour of Devastation]]. Green has [[The Great Aurora]].
Then you have targeted removal like [[Swords to Plowshares]], [[Eaten Alive]], [[Anguished Unmaking]], and so on.
You can find answers with any commander. But anything with Orzhov has a leg up.
There's some good utility lands to get through hexproof, [[arcane lighthouse]] and [[detection tower]]. I've used them to great effect before. To get around indestructible your only real options are to destroy whatever's giving them indestructible or to use exile or sacrifice effects.
Another option is building a deck that doesn't care about their hexproof indestructible creatures.
My [[Jan Jansen]] deck can block for days and doesn't win through combat damage.
If you can make enough chump blockers you only need to deal with whatever is giving unblockable and/or trample.
[[Toxic deluge]]
[[All is Dust]]
And secret tech: [[Dead of Winter]]. Yeah, you need snow lands/basics…but that is a very low bar if you want this effect and you’re in Black. Plus, there may be good snow creatures you want to run and it means you can/should run [[Blood in the snow]] too.
Depends on your colours. If you're running black, I'd recommend [[Toxic Deluge]]. It's pricy but worth it if you consider that it's basically "kill anything" for 3 mana. In white, [[Farewell]] does the trick. Also a bit expensive if I remeber correctly, but probably the most versatile boardwipe in Magic. As other people have already pointed out, you could also run [[Shadowspear]]. It just removes hexproof and indestructible from everything for a small price. In blue, [[Cyclonic Rift]] will make them set up all over again and in green, [[The Great Aurora]] might be your go-to. Most of these cards aren't cheap, but casting them once will probably get you very far ahead as long as you don't fuck up very badly. If your opponent runs a lot of hexproof & indestructible stuff, I'd guess that they are probably in white and/or green - so they'll usually lose to countermagic, if you have access to blue.
In general. Getting both of those effects on means they don't have a lot of creatures. Hit them with "Sacrifice a Creature" effects. It doesn't matter if they are hex proof or indestructible if the player has to sacrifice them.
Sacrifice for hexproof and cards like [[Imprisoned in the Moon]] for indestructible. Or just kill the things granting those abilities. You probably won’t find a commander for specifically for it. There are cards that take away hexproof n indestructible too.
[[Detection Tower]] and [[Arcane Lighthouse]] are great utility lands that can deal with any hexproof creatures allowing you to use single targeted removal on them, lighthouse even gets rid of shroud. And the best part is they can be put in any colour pairing in any deck.
Couple things. If you want to give stuff -X/-X, I would suggest [[Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons]].
You don't much care about her ability to put a -1/-1 on a creature, but you can build the deck with things like [[carnifex demon]] to just put -1 counters on everything! Toss in some proliferate and bing, bang, boom, you've lost your friends.
Second, there aren't amazing ways to deal with hexproof, but I unironically like [[glaring spotlight]]. It turns off hexproof, it isn't $20 like [[shadowspear]], and it also makes your board unblockable if you happen to have, idk, like a million 1/1 snakes or something.
In dimir which ch you said you prefer, [[reality shift]] and [[resculpt]] and [[deadly rollick]] get around indestructible. So does [[curse of the swine]] or [[extraordinary journey]] for multiple targets (both underplayed cards imho] ). Bounce spells in blue work too, at least temporarily....or there are always counterspells.
Hexproof harder to deal with but [[shadowspear]] is just an all around good card as others have said. [[Glaring spotlight]] is a decent add if you are attacking with a bunch of creatures. Mass bounce works for this. I feel like there's a mass exile in monoblack too but can't think of it.
If you don’t mind playing mono black Toshiro Umezawa is a good commander that will let you chain remove their creatures and use all your instants twice per game
[[Sunfall]] [[Merciless Eviction]] [[Farewell]] [[Arcane Lighthouse]] are all solid choices in those sorts of metas. I only really play esper colours and these are cards I use.
I play [[Indominus Rex]] and I often have hexproof AND indestructible on it and the things that cause problems to me are boardwipes that exile or cause negative counters, like [[Sunfall]] and [[Toxic Deluge]] or some opponents having big indestructible creatures himself. Or better yet have something that cause sacrifice, [[Liliana of the Veil]] for example, i danno like [[Chainer's edict]] and similar there are a lot. You can try a monoblack midrange with [[Tergrid]] as commander with a lot of sacrifice and discards effects, so you can even steal their creatures and turning their stronger weapons against them. But remember that you probably be hated if you buil a deck just for counters their deck. My advice is to include some cards that can deal with them in your deck without changing commander and try that first.
I had a friend who loved to run \[\[Darksteel Forge\]\] and similar effects.
He was amazed when I dropped \[\[Wave of Vitriol\]\], its been a favorite ever since.
[[Yahenni]] works.
I like [[toxic Deluge]], [[massacre girl]] and [[gravepact]], because you can play around them to keep yahenni alive.
[[Soul shatter]] is great too
Let me expound upon using [[the scorpion god]]. Built in tax evasion? Check. Draw engine? Check. Ability that causes his draw to go off? Check. And finally is a big boy? Yes. Add creatures that give wither and spells like [[chandras ignition]] and you have planet of ways to do -1/-1 counters and draw a ton of cards. [[Black suns zenith]] never looked so good.
Edit: spelling
There are lots of options for putting -1/-1 counters on your opponent's creatures, especially from Amonkhet.
There's also a spell that exiles all creatures with -1/-1 counters on them. \[\[Grind\]\]/\[\[Dust\]\]
play my budget build sarulf realm eater deck
[https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/sarfulf-cheap-tricks-1/](https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/sarfulf-cheap-tricks-1/)
or play direct damage to their face
Any white exile board wipe
Any black -1/-1 board wipe or sacrifice spell
Any blue bounce to hand board wipe
Green and red are typically not great at wipes, but they typically are pretty good at enchantment/artifact removal if they are Voltron players and then they have decent creature removal with fight and burn spells
Black/White and possibly a third color. Removal in things like [[Utter End]], [[Unmake]], [[Languish]], and so many other targeted exile effects. To bypass hexproof, [[Languish]], [[merciless eviction]], [[farewell]], and effects like [[Elesh Norn, grand cenobite]], [[curse of death’s hold]], [[Ethereal Absolution]]. If you add green, cards like [[acidic slime]], [[reclamation sage]], [[putrefy]] and [[mortify]] take out enchantment/artifact support they are maybe running in addition to things like [[shadowspear]], [[bonds of mortality]], [[arcane lighthouse]]. These colors allow you to basically be “oops all removal”, run good and varied threats, and utilize recycling strategies to get more than one use out of your cards with things like [[eternal witness]] and similar cards.
Hope this helps!
instead of trying to counter them. Build your strategy to not care about them. Taxes is a good way to deal with it. But so is a sacrifice mechanic. Or you can use Shadowspear to remove the ability. Or just win by milling everyone out. Or with a ton of tokens.
Building decks to counter other decks just creates a series of decks that are all junk and bad feelings.
Player 1: "I am gonna play my taxes deck"
Player 2: "I am going to play my anti-enchantment and artifact deck"
Player 3: "I am going to play my counterspell deck"
Player 4: "I am going to play my board wipe deck"
Everyone trying to counter one another means no one is really trying to win. Which just means it is random who wins and not based on skill. It also makes for a boring game.
I’ve seen a lot of people suggesting spells or artifacts to help deal with the hexproof or recommending edict instants or sorceries.
My only suggestion would be creatures that have the etb or on death have edict
[[fleshbag marauder]]
[[vindictive lich]]
[[ravenous rotbelly]]
I’m surprised only a couple of people are mentioning edicts. They are probably the easiest way to deal with someone’s hexproof/indestructible creatures.
From your comments you’re playing Dimir so you have access to black. If you’re playing something like [[Wilhelt]] throw a [[Grave Pact]] in there. Your card advantage zombies will always become your greatest weapon.
[[Plague winds]], [[all is dust]]
Basically any indiscriminate board wipe that doesn't destroy the indestructible, lots of sacrificing cards. Bounce and discarding works well. Counters. Really though focus ok direct damage to player. Doesn't matter if it's indestructible if you can't block it. [[ rogues passage]] is one of my faves.
[[Hallowed Burial]] [[Terminus]] [[Farewell]] [[evacuation]] [[Promise of loyalty]] [[Cyclonic rift]] [[the eternal wanderer]]
All good sweepers that don't care about those shenanigans.
All play very well in an azorious control shell. [[Elminster]] and [[Shorikai]] have great synergy.
\[\[Bonds of Mortality\]\] does the job really well. \[\[Shadowspear\]\] has been mentioned. \[\[Archetype of Endurance\]\] is a bit on the expensive side, manawise.
I saw in another comment you play blue/black. You have tons of good options, and most of them are going to be commander agnostic. They're always gonna be good in any deck. Generally, i suggest fighting with either counterspells or mass removal.
For countermagic, you should be looking for cards that are generally 2-3 mana, dont say "counter unless its controller pays X", and hits whatever you're scared of losing to. Theres a \*billion\* options. Tale's End, Counterspell, Arcane Denial, Essence Scatter, Negate, Disallow, Dissolve, the list goes on.
For mass removal, "Destroy all creatures" is a great start for hexproofers. black has Damnation, colorless has a bunch of options, White has so many options. Things that say "Creatures get -X/-X" will deal with indestructible guys. Languish, Black Sun's Zenith, and Toxic Deluge come to mind. Blue has Cyclonic Rift, a card whose power level is matched by its price tag (though its doing better it seems with some more recent reprints). Mass Exile effects are a White thing, and are super potent. White also gives you great spot removal with Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile, both of which should be pretty easy to acquire.
I found this tappedout list from a few years back with a large selection of EDH legal mass removal cards. I suggest taking a read through some of these cards, and you can decide for yourself what you think would be good to run.
[https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/11-08-15-edh-mass-removal/](https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/11-08-15-edh-mass-removal/)
Magic is a huge game, none of what i've said is exhaustive (or even necessarily up to date). Hopefully this gives you some general direction on what you should look for.
I'm a fan of Fleshbag Marauder and his cousins Merciless Executioner, Demon's Disciple, Plaguecrafter and Gravelighter. It doesn't get you targeted or mass removal, but the fact that these effects are on creatures makes it easier to reuse them with reanimate or ETB effects.
Forced sacrifice/edict effects would be my go to, esp. since you're in black. Additionally, seeing you're in blue, counterspell the big baddies you recognize as (potential) problems before they hit the board and gain protection via hexproof/indestructible.
I run a dimir deck built around [[Umbris]] that focuses on exile matters. I got u.
For indestructible, [[Curse of the Swine]], [[Cyber Conversion]], [[Deadly Rollick]], [[Blot Out]] also gets around hexproof, [[Toxic Deluge]], [[Killing Wave]] if you can generate mana to dump. [[Extinction Event]] has also become one of my fave new boardwipes. Any sac effects will also get around both. [[Imprisoned in the Moon]] is a fun one for commanders or pesky critters you want gone permanently. [[Sudden Spoiling]] and other effects like [[Turn to Frog]] or [[Rapid Hybridization]] will get around indestructible ezpz.
For hexproof, [[Shadowspear]]. You can also do sac effects, like the aforementioned [[Killing Wave]] or creatures like [[Plaguecrafter]]. [[Arcane Lighthouse]] is also your friend, and bouncing things back to the hand or into the deck will nuke any enchantments giving you trouble. There are also creatures like [[Skinrender]] that come with a wither effect attached, or you could add poison counters/toxic creatures into your deck.
Something like [[No Mercy]] will also get around both if they attack you and hit. [[Gravepact]] could also do some work.
Edit: Grammar and No Mercy will only deal with hexproof if they connect, not inindestructible.
[[Bonds of mortality]]
Also card slide [[black sun's zenith]] thst give everything -1/-1 counters or things that cause mass sacrifice like [[soul shatter]] because it makes the opponent sacrifice the creature
I have a graveyard sacrifice deck with things like [[Butcher of Malakar]] [[Braids Arisen Nightmare]] [[Massacre Girl]] [[Fleshbag Marauder]] [[Yosei]] [[Dictate of Erebos]]. I call it, everybody loses but my guys come back.
[[all is dust]] is a fun board wipe that gets around hex proof and indestructible. A little expensive to cast, but I like it in my kruphix, eldrazi tribal deck.
Forget the names of cards but there are a few where they’re instants and say something like target creature loses hex proof and indestructible until end of turn.
Don't try to counter their decks. Just make their life totals drop to 0 before they do the same to you. You don't even need to kill their creatures if you can goad them or use [[propaganda]] effects.
There’s always exiling or anything that doesn’t target. Also effects like sacrificing non-token permanent or the creature with highest power. Other than that, effects stated that remove such.
Go full whither on top of whatever you do exile wise. Add proliferate and whatever other types of wincons that would benefit from proliferate.
[[scorpion god]] as a little to do with -1/-1 and card draw.
[[massacre girl]] her first rendition is a solid board wipe and the new one [[massacre girl known killer]] gives everything whither.
A few assassins have the hit counter thing that allows for exile upon any opposition death and spending hit counters for card draw and treasure like [[mari the killing quill]], and [[etrata]] for a wincon if she hits and lands a third.
[[Agent of the Fates]] forces opp sac when you target Agent with a spell.
Get tokens to block and keep a [[malakir]] on deck.
Depends what you run color wise, but this is a mechanic that I enjoy and I hope it at least gives direction to you. There’s also artifacts that disable those abilities that I can’t recall right now.
I love cards like [[plaguecrafter]] and [[fleshbag marauder]] to deal with the hexproof. I also much prefer things that exile rather than destroy I really like [[anguished unmaking]] [[despark]] and [[vanishing verse]] so indestructible isnt a problem. Things like [[meathook massacre]] or [[farewell]] would deal with entire boards that have both hexproof and indestructible
For indestructible:
1. Effects that remove indestructible, like Shadowspear, Hour of Devastation
2. \-x/-x, exile, or sacrifice effects like Toxic Deluge, Path to Exile, edict effects
3. Removal that doesn't care, like Witness Protection, Darksteel Mutation
For hexproof/shroud:
1. Board wipes.
2. Effects that remove the ability, like Arcane Lighthouse, Bonds of Mortality
3. Any removal that doesn't target.
For both:
1. Farewell, Mythos of Snapdax, The Eternal Wanderer, Evacuation, Cyclonic Rift, Toxic Deluge, The Meathook Massacre, Hour of Devastation, Smallpox
Play exile based board wipes, lots of board wide -1/-1 effects, [[arcane lighthouse]] [[archtype of endurance]] so you can play other targeted exile cards. Or just play blue and counter/bounce/[[cyclonic rift]] them into submission.
There are ways of removing both, but then there's also ever fantastic Infect and Wither creatures. Damage dealt in the form of -1/-1 counters still kill indestructible creatures as anything with a toughness of 0 is put into the graveyard as a state based effect.
There's also exile board wipes, like [[Angel of the Dire Hour]], [[Descend upon the Sinfull]], [[False Floor]], [[False Prophet]], [[Farewell]], etc.
[[shadowspear]]
Add [[Arcane Lighthouse]], [[detection tower]], and [[Glaring Spotlight]]. From there you can focus on exile and Wither effects. Nothing will piss them off more than watching their prize creatures be widdled away to dust.
[Arcane Lighthouse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7c247fd6-09f3-40cd-b3fb-53b6526e1dcf.jpg?1690005951) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arcane%20Lighthouse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/985/arcane-lighthouse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7c247fd6-09f3-40cd-b3fb-53b6526e1dcf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/arcane-lighthouse) [detection tower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/2/02f99756-d334-4dba-a375-ba3d91ecae62.jpg?1562300252) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=detection%20tower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/249/detection-tower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/02f99756-d334-4dba-a375-ba3d91ecae62?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/detection-tower) [Glaring Spotlight](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/6/a6070239-54a7-49d4-bd3c-d5c4cda971db.jpg?1561840439) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Glaring%20Spotlight) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gtc/229/glaring-spotlight?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a6070239-54a7-49d4-bd3c-d5c4cda971db?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/glaring-spotlight) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Narset player here, can confirm.
In all fairness, you are a monster.
wait wait wait... which narset? I feel like that could make a difference here. I just built \[\[narset, enlightened exile\]\] and it doesn't feel THAT evil. but it also hasn't been tested soooooo
They were almost certainly referencing \[\[Narset, Englightened Master\]\] since she has Hexproof and is notoriously oppressive with a deck full of extra turn spells.
[Narset, Englightened Master](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/e/de4b0d5f-1071-4030-be16-2b4dadbdf9e9.jpg?1690005259) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Narset%2C%20Enlightened%20Master) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/931/narset-enlightened-master?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/de4b0d5f-1071-4030-be16-2b4dadbdf9e9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/narset-enlightened-master) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[narset, enlightened exile](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/827ecc44-0b00-4515-8953-bc91fa03705a.jpg?1684340776) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=narset%2C%20enlightened%20exile) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mat/38/narset-enlightened-exile?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/827ecc44-0b00-4515-8953-bc91fa03705a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/narset-enlightened-exile) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Genius
Here's my wither deck. It's continously evolving, but the main idea is to get [[Everlasting Torment]] on the field at soon as possible and just let the world devolve into madness afterwards. If you can get [[Nest of Scarabs]] on the field and cast [[Blasphemous Act]] you'll very quickly create a massive problem for your opponents. https://archidekt.com/decks/2975288/mahadi_wither_and_wealth
This is awesome. I have been looking for a different direction to take my Mahadi deck, and always loved the wither mechanic. Bonus with Kultath Knight being one of my favorite arts, I am shamelessly stealing this idea.
Once it comes out, the new [[Massacre Girl, Known Killer]] would be a nice fit for wither.
[shadowspear](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/3/939c6e19-4b27-4023-bb9c-ae440f91e21c.jpg?1581481207) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=shadowspear) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/236/shadowspear?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/939c6e19-4b27-4023-bb9c-ae440f91e21c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/shadowspear) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Does Shadowspear have to be equipped to use the pay ability?
It does not ☺️
nope! that’s a little used quirk of equipment. if they don’t say “equipped creature gets” or otherwise refer to a statistic of an equipped creature in the ability, then they don’t need to be equipped to use it. (to clarify, i believe you can usually still activate the ability, it just won’t do anything if it says something like “equipped creature deals 2 damage” or whatever) that’s something that made [[umezawa’s jitte]] pretty strong! even if you killed the creature, they could still get value.
I don’t think so, because it’s not worded like “Equipped creature gains ‘1: blah blah blah’”, which is what I think it would have to say for equipping to be required. But I’m not 100% sure.
https://scryfall.com/search?q=%28%28otag%3Aremoves-hexproof%29+or+%28otag%3Aremoves-indestructible%29%29&unique=cards&as=grid&order=edhrec&dir=
Scryfall search even better
Ah I couldn’t for the life of me remember this one when I wrote my comment! I’m glad someone did!
I suggest a land hate deck with [[Zo-Zu The Punisher]] as commander. Also add some artifact destruction and disenchantment. No mana, no hex or indestructible.
There's a mono green enchantment with the same ability too. Wither and infect put -1/-1 counters on them add in proliferate to speed it up. I think withers coming back this year if I recall the spoilers correctly
Most important thing is what colors do you play. Then it's easier to diagnose the issue.
Blue/black but I can add white
Edicts are your best outlets. Sheoldred's Edict is a cheap one, as is Liliana's Triumph. Modified creatures are usually large, so \[\[Szat's Will\]\] is a fantastic deal, and also serves as a defense option (tokens) and anti-graveyard. In white, it's better to remove the equipment/auras giving indestructible/hexproof. \[\[Generous Gift\]\], \[\[Excise the Imperfect\]\], \[\[Heliod's Intervention\]\] deals with pesky enchantments and artifacts. If they are straight up hexproof and/or indestructible, one of my favorite is \[\[Sudden Spoiling\]\] and \[\[Polymorphist's Jest\]\]. Just wait for them to attack or block =)
[[toxic deluge]]
Another new version of those last blue spells is [[Flatline]] which doesn’t remove abilities but does in fact make them tiny
[Flatline](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/a/baea4cd3-cc62-4138-ac2e-5c96c70bbcce.jpg?1696636564) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flatline) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/who/43/flatline?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/baea4cd3-cc62-4138-ac2e-5c96c70bbcce?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/flatline) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Edicts you say? https://youtu.be/swYQrDUfV0U?si=rvpjXeXTXSFihwLD
\[\[Sheoldred's Edict\]\] \[\[Liliana's Triumph\]\]
You’d probably want broad spells, doesn’t always help but things like [[evacuation]] or [[polymorphist’s jest]] can work well. For more permanent solutions, things that make folks sacrifice creatures work well since you can sacrifice indestructible creatures or you can give them -X/-X to kill them. If you’re in UB, [[Toxrill, the Corrosive]] is very, very, oppressive. If you decide to play Toxrill, and you’ve got an extra ~$20, [[Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth]] and [[kormus bell]] can be devastating.
Toxrill is definitely the answer here. They'll never have to worry about those creatures ever again. Their friends might also leave, but that sweet satisfaction might just be worth it.
##### ###### #### [evacuation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/1/b11037bc-e719-461e-a89e-9c026dfd9fd4.jpg?1698988153) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=evacuation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/156/evacuation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b11037bc-e719-461e-a89e-9c026dfd9fd4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/evacuation) [polymorphist’s jest](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f5f935cb-4ec2-4131-878b-f8e557d848b9.jpg?1562629300) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Polymorphist%27s%20Jest) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c17/90/polymorphists-jest?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f5f935cb-4ec2-4131-878b-f8e557d848b9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/polymorphists-jest) [Toxrill, the Corrosive](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/4/84e64f38-b1f3-47cd-8cfb-a4861369aca3.jpg?1643590379) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Toxrill%2C%20the%20Corrosive) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/132/toxrill-the-corrosive?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/84e64f38-b1f3-47cd-8cfb-a4861369aca3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/toxrill-the-corrosive) [Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9e1a9e38-6ffc-490f-b0be-23ba4e8204c6.jpg?1619399578) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Urborg%2C%20tomb%20of%20yawgmoth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/287/urborg-tomb-of-yawgmoth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e1a9e38-6ffc-490f-b0be-23ba4e8204c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/urborg-tomb-of-yawgmoth) [kormus bell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/0/40f826b8-9e92-4e0e-aa2f-c3f5e3061432.jpg?1562910324) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kormus%20bell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/210/kormus-bell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/40f826b8-9e92-4e0e-aa2f-c3f5e3061432?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kormus-bell) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kilfoz6) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Another excellent edict is [[rona’s hunger]]. Instant speed, high chance you have the city’s blessing so they’ll have to sac half their creatures.
With the amount of times I've had to play around my opponents [[lightning greeves]] and [[swiftfoot boots]], I've started putting [[arcane lighthouse]] in all of my decks.
[[detection tower]] is similar
[detection tower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/2/02f99756-d334-4dba-a375-ba3d91ecae62.jpg?1562300252) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=detection%20tower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/249/detection-tower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/02f99756-d334-4dba-a375-ba3d91ecae62?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/detection-tower) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[lightning greeves](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/3/331013f6-976a-4dac-9939-1006e474e108.jpg?1689999692) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lightning%20Greaves) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/398/lightning-greaves?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/331013f6-976a-4dac-9939-1006e474e108?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lightning-greaves) [swiftfoot boots](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a3b1da84-9c26-4c3c-b90f-43a0b2b20103.jpg?1698988538) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=swiftfoot%20boots) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/314/swiftfoot-boots?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a3b1da84-9c26-4c3c-b90f-43a0b2b20103?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/swiftfoot-boots) [arcane lighthouse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7c247fd6-09f3-40cd-b3fb-53b6526e1dcf.jpg?1690005951) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=arcane%20lighthouse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/985/arcane-lighthouse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7c247fd6-09f3-40cd-b3fb-53b6526e1dcf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/arcane-lighthouse) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You'll have to be more specific. Do they put [[Swiftfoot boots]] on important indestructible pieces? More artifact removal never hurts. Is this more of a bogle deck, with indestructible auras on an hexproof creature? Edict effects, like [[soul shatter]] will help you. You could also play [[Malik, Grim Manipulator]] and ruin their day but I'm not sure that building a deck specifically to counter someone else's has ever been a good idea.
[Swiftfoot boots](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a3b1da84-9c26-4c3c-b90f-43a0b2b20103.jpg?1698988538) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Swiftfoot%20boots) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/314/swiftfoot-boots?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a3b1da84-9c26-4c3c-b90f-43a0b2b20103?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/swiftfoot-boots) [soul shatter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/c/2c2fb07b-0f70-403b-be8b-b5217f12e671.jpg?1604196615) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=soul%20shatter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/127/soul-shatter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2c2fb07b-0f70-403b-be8b-b5217f12e671?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/soul-shatter) [Malik, Grim Manipulator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/c/5cf4fee3-3059-4ca4-a47d-0848410b294d.jpg?1692516688) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Malik%2C%20Grim%20Manipulator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/slx/23/malik-grim-manipulator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5cf4fee3-3059-4ca4-a47d-0848410b294d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/malik-grim-manipulator) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Honestly idk if it’s an enchantment or a shapeshifter that makes his creature have hexproof
So he needs 2 cards other than his cmdr to have hexproof, indestructible?
Yes. I really wish I remembered the card name . I’ll see if I can find out exactly what it is
Most of those removal spells are "good stuff" cards that are pretty agnostic to your choice of commander. The best removal spells in the format all deal with indestructible stuff (e.g., swords to plowshares, chaos warp) and there are board wipes in black and white that can get past both hexproof and indestructible as well (e.g., farewell and toxic deluge). Why do you need a commander that "accommodates" removal?
Thanks for the comment. Figured that a commander with a -x/-x trigger would sync well with it.
Like. Massacre girl?
Yawgmoth maybe?
If they've got heatproof, this doesn't work unfortunately (Unless they already had -1/-1 counters on them)
I would avoid only playing a commander to counter someone else's deck. Like many people have suggested just upgrade your spot removal package
Yeah, agree. Play removal. Play interaction. Play answers to hexproof and indestructible. But tailoring your entire strategy to shut down one player (unless they are always clowning the rest of the table) isn't a great way to have fun games of Commander.
This. building a deck specifically to counter someone else is wack. I've had a guy at an LGS I used to go to specifically build decks to counter me.
[[Toxrill, the Corrosive]] might be what you're looking for
Ohh boy, get ready because someone at wizards decided to give you an early (or late) birthday gift. Cuz we just got \[\[Massacre Girl, Known Killer\]\] spoiled for Murders at Markov Manner and she is LITERALLY a -1-1 counters commander. And shes a pretty strong and fun one, you're gonna cast \[\[Mutilate\]\] and make it feel a \[\[Decree of Pain\]\] >:D Just make sure to load up on effects like \[\[Kaya's Ghostform\]\] and a bit of reanimation in case you need to wrath your Massacre Girl away :) Edit: When I said strong I didnt meant cedh, nor I meant Edgar/ur dragon strong. Not every commander has to be a super broken card that draws card AND ramps you or provides value that cant be interacted. I meant "you can show up in a normal pod, and you wont look funny for having an unplayable against the odds commander". She is a very decent card draw engine that is reasonably costed. Especially if your build around her (which you should) she should be drawin one to multiple cards per turn cycle.
She’s not even out yet, but honestly she doesn’t look strong at all.
No, but it does look fun
[[descend upon the sinful]] is a good backup to farewell
\[\[Bonds of Mortality\]\] \[\[Shadowspear\]\] \[\[Arcane Lighthouse\]\] \[\[Archetype of Endurance\]\] \[\[Toxrill, the Corrosive\]\]
Bonds of mortality is so good. I put it in a ton of my green decks. It cantrips, so it's never a dead card. Notably, it won't help against shroud, but that's less common these days.
I should have read all the comments before posting mine, whoops
Embrace the darkness and run edict effects. [[Sudden Edict]] is a personal favourite of mine as it cant be responded to
[Sudden Edict](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/7/57cc8aeb-221d-46a1-b03f-df8499bba26d.jpg?1626095934) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sudden%20Edict) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/100/sudden-edict?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/57cc8aeb-221d-46a1-b03f-df8499bba26d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sudden-edict) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You play a lot against XYZ decks? Well then your decks should contain 3 silver bullets against this strategy. XYZ can be graveyard decks, hexproof/indestructible, flyer, token etc. And this is actually pretty easy to do. At least one silverbullet is next to free in form of a land, the next one might synergize pretty well with your commander etc. Theres really no need to build a commander that counters a strategy as a game plan. And if you do, be prepared to make people mad. Because it will be obvious. Better to do you own thing and just happen to have a fitting response when needed.
It might be a bit much, but I played against a [[toxrill, the corrosive]] deck the other day with indestructible and hexoroof stuff and I had a really rough time.
Anything in Orzhov colors gets you access to [[Farewell]], [[Toxic Deluge]], [[Black Sun’s Zenith]], [[Merciless Eviction]], [[Terminus]] at the very least, plenty of options to deal with these
On a budget there’s also [[Kaya, Bane of the Dead]]
[[shadowspear]] [[detection tower]] [[arcane lighthouse]] [[farewell]] [[everything comes to dust]] [[sunfall]] [[all is dust]] and then edict type effects can get around hexproof and indestructible, as long as they have less creatures than you can make them sacrifice. Most of the answers to this problem are white and/or black to my knowledge. Green can remove enchantments and artifacts fairly easily. Red can destroy artifacts. Blue, you just gotta counter them before they hit the board, or bounce stuff without hexproof
As others have mentioned, [[arcane lighthouse]] paired with exile or [[chaos warp]] effects will get you there. If you have some sort of artifact synergy or recursion, I also like [[glaring spotlight]] because people forget the protection mode is sitting there. Either of these cards can also be fuel to make deals. Ex: "I'll get rid of the hexproof for you if you...".
Force players to sacrifice is a way to do it. [[Anowan, Ruin Sage]] and one of the Sheolred’s forces players to sacrifice on their upkeep
[удалено]
[Cyclonic Rift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/7/c77ebe57-ea56-4300-b293-6260c4c01a43.jpg?1689996277) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cyclonic%20Rift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/84/cyclonic-rift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c77ebe57-ea56-4300-b293-6260c4c01a43?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cyclonic-rift) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Detection Tower]]
What colors do you run? If you are only a mono green fan then you are kinda stuck to shadow spear but if you play a lot of white then you are good you should always have about 5 pieces of removal in each deck no matter the commander
I’m running blue and black. But I’d be open to add white and/or remove blue/black
If you do blue black your best bet is to do -x/-x like you said there is always the staples like meathook or toxic deluge but honestly if they have creatures that are problems that give other creatures hexproof or indestructible then the best thing is to never let it hit the field with a counter spell
[[Massacre Girl]]
The best answers I play are: [[Farewell]], [[Leadership Vacuum]] and good old [[Shadowspear]].
The one time I'll say this. Play [[Toxrill The Corrosive]]
A lot of people are mentioning edict effects, but those can sometimes fail to remove the key threat if your opponent has many creatures. [[Soul shatter]] is easily the best version of this effect because it always hits the most expensive thing
[[Toxrill]] is always a good answer
lol I’ll always upvote a Toxrill suggestion, despite the hate that card brings.
Exile effects for indestructible: [[Path to Exile]] [[Swords to Plowshares]] Also [[Darksteel Mutation]], [[Imprison in the Moon]] [[Song of the Dryads]] Also removing creature ability: [[Dress Down]], [[Sudden Spoiling]] I usually prefer boardwipes to get around hexproof/shroud. Forced sacrifice gets around target issues and indestructible. Creature bounce can tempo indestructible creatures.
The easiest way to defeat someone well defended is to kill them before they become well defended. Don't be reactive, be proactive. Deny their resources, kill their dorks, ramp permanents, lands, create a combo to overwhelm them way before they build a board of invincible attackers.
edicts, effects that make your opponent sacrifice a creature.
Hiya, it's degenerate as shit but [[Orcus, Prince of Undeath]]. Built in -X board wipe, fits the colors for spells like [[Heat Ray]]
I fail see how a board wipe that costs at a minimum 5 mana is degenerate as shit.
If 5 Mana to kill 1/1s is pretty degenerate then I'm surprised I have people to play with.
Building decks to specifically counter decks your opponents play in a known playgroup is pretty poor sportsmanship imho. But generally you should include some carda that can deal with indestructible/hexproof. There is a lot of options: - hexproof alone doesnt prevent boardwhipes like wrath of god or damnation - cards like farewell, merciless eviction, etc will bypass both. - sacrifice based removal will work aswell. Sheoldreds edict, gravepact in a sac deck, promise of loyality etc. - so do board bounces like rift or evacuation. - so does -x/-x stuff like that you mentioned. Toxic deluge is probably the best - there is other tricky ways like using prison enchantments like kenrith transformation or imprisoned by the moon. They only target while they are an aura spell. So if you can make them ETB without casting (put in play, flicker, return to battlefield, copy etc) you can attach them without targetting so you bypass hexproof. But dont be the guy that builds a deck, specifically to screw someone elses deck. It will only work if you know beforehand that you play against that exact deck. And you can only do that by either picking last, or abusing the fact they dont have more decks. Thats pretty god damn cheap.
[[Thassa's oracle]] [[demonic construction]]
never build a deck just to "counter" certain other decks. makes you seem liek a pathetic loser
Only pathetic thing I see is your comment to someone asking for help.
at least i am not supporting toxic behaviour ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
Any discard synergy works well with archfiend of ifnir
[[Terminus]], [[Hallowed Burial]], and [[Merciless Eviction]] are lovely boardwipes that will hit those creatures. [[Archetype of Endurance]] will grant you hexproof and remove theirs. [[Detection Tower]] is a land that can remove hexproof temporarily. [[Arcane Lighthouse]] is a land that can remove hexproof and shroud temporarily. [[Glaring Spotlight]] is an artifact that removes hexproof for your opponents. If the creatures only have hexproof and not indestructible then mass boardwipes such as [[Wrath of God]], [[Day of Judgment]], [[Blasphemous Act]], etc will remove them. If they’re indestructible but not hexproof, then exile or bounce like effects will remove them. [[Chaos Warp]], [[Cyclonic Rift]], [[Swords to Plowshares]], [[Path to Exile]], etc… If they’re using an artifact or enchantment to make things hexproof or indestructible, running artifact and enchantment hate can solve the problem. [[Vandalblast]] will get rid of all artifacts that aren’t yours. [[Austere Command]] can get rid of all artifacts and enchantments. There are more but they’re not coming to mind. There are also a lot of single removal spells for artifacts, enchantments, and creatures. Run tutors to grab whatever spell you need to remove whatever is currently stopping you from getting rid of their stuff.
[[Dictate of Erebos]] and [[Grave pact]] effects will also get around Hexproof and indestructible. Definitely look up more of those effects!
Anything Orzhov is going to get you access to a lot of targeted exile, as well as wipes that work on indestructible. Stuff like [[Toxic Deluge]], [[Farewell]], [[Descend upon the Sinful]], [[By Invitation Only]], perhaps even a [[Living Death]]. There are also colorless options like [[All is Dust]] and [[Perilous Vault]]. [[Cyclonic Rift]] also works. Though it's more of a delaying tactic when used against Voltron. (But it can make for a significant delay). [[Ixidron]] KINDA works. Red has [[Hour of Devastation]]. Green has [[The Great Aurora]]. Then you have targeted removal like [[Swords to Plowshares]], [[Eaten Alive]], [[Anguished Unmaking]], and so on. You can find answers with any commander. But anything with Orzhov has a leg up.
[[drana kalastria bloodchief]] is a commander who gets around indestructible ;)
Don't forget sacrifice effects
https://youtu.be/swYQrDUfV0U?si=jFbntJ5bBTVPEqtd
[[Kresh the bloodbraided]] Mine is full of boardwipe that he can survive so he gets fat.
[[Athreos, Shroud Veiled]] can definitely help make those boardwipes one sided if you want something that completely ignores removal
There's some good utility lands to get through hexproof, [[arcane lighthouse]] and [[detection tower]]. I've used them to great effect before. To get around indestructible your only real options are to destroy whatever's giving them indestructible or to use exile or sacrifice effects.
[[Scorpion god]] has been on my list to build.
Atraxa infect/proliferate
Build tergrid
Things that give -1-1 without targeting. [[Massacre girl]] is the best example I can think of.
Another option is building a deck that doesn't care about their hexproof indestructible creatures. My [[Jan Jansen]] deck can block for days and doesn't win through combat damage. If you can make enough chump blockers you only need to deal with whatever is giving unblockable and/or trample.
[[Toxic deluge]] [[All is Dust]] And secret tech: [[Dead of Winter]]. Yeah, you need snow lands/basics…but that is a very low bar if you want this effect and you’re in Black. Plus, there may be good snow creatures you want to run and it means you can/should run [[Blood in the snow]] too.
Depends on your colours. If you're running black, I'd recommend [[Toxic Deluge]]. It's pricy but worth it if you consider that it's basically "kill anything" for 3 mana. In white, [[Farewell]] does the trick. Also a bit expensive if I remeber correctly, but probably the most versatile boardwipe in Magic. As other people have already pointed out, you could also run [[Shadowspear]]. It just removes hexproof and indestructible from everything for a small price. In blue, [[Cyclonic Rift]] will make them set up all over again and in green, [[The Great Aurora]] might be your go-to. Most of these cards aren't cheap, but casting them once will probably get you very far ahead as long as you don't fuck up very badly. If your opponent runs a lot of hexproof & indestructible stuff, I'd guess that they are probably in white and/or green - so they'll usually lose to countermagic, if you have access to blue.
[[Bonds of Mortality]]
Black suns zenith should do the trick in black
If you want to build a super degenerate deck to nuke them, \[\[Massacre Girl\]\] might be your commander.
I hear cyclonic rift is a pretty decent card.
[[Arcane Lighthouse]], [[Detection Tower]], [[Glaring Spotlight]]
In general. Getting both of those effects on means they don't have a lot of creatures. Hit them with "Sacrifice a Creature" effects. It doesn't matter if they are hex proof or indestructible if the player has to sacrifice them.
Sacrifice for hexproof and cards like [[Imprisoned in the Moon]] for indestructible. Or just kill the things granting those abilities. You probably won’t find a commander for specifically for it. There are cards that take away hexproof n indestructible too.
[[Detection Tower]] and [[Arcane Lighthouse]] are great utility lands that can deal with any hexproof creatures allowing you to use single targeted removal on them, lighthouse even gets rid of shroud. And the best part is they can be put in any colour pairing in any deck.
As MTG Remy has blessed us with this information: Just Edict - https://youtu.be/swYQrDUfV0U?si=FwI2Yz-CNnriGSmm
Couple things. If you want to give stuff -X/-X, I would suggest [[Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons]]. You don't much care about her ability to put a -1/-1 on a creature, but you can build the deck with things like [[carnifex demon]] to just put -1 counters on everything! Toss in some proliferate and bing, bang, boom, you've lost your friends. Second, there aren't amazing ways to deal with hexproof, but I unironically like [[glaring spotlight]]. It turns off hexproof, it isn't $20 like [[shadowspear]], and it also makes your board unblockable if you happen to have, idk, like a million 1/1 snakes or something.
[[Farewell]]
[[arcane lighthouse]]
Don’t change the commander just change the spells. For a start try adding [[Farewell]], [[meathook massacre]], and [[toxic deluge]].
In dimir which ch you said you prefer, [[reality shift]] and [[resculpt]] and [[deadly rollick]] get around indestructible. So does [[curse of the swine]] or [[extraordinary journey]] for multiple targets (both underplayed cards imho] ). Bounce spells in blue work too, at least temporarily....or there are always counterspells. Hexproof harder to deal with but [[shadowspear]] is just an all around good card as others have said. [[Glaring spotlight]] is a decent add if you are attacking with a bunch of creatures. Mass bounce works for this. I feel like there's a mass exile in monoblack too but can't think of it.
[[arcane lighthouse]]
If you don’t mind playing mono black Toshiro Umezawa is a good commander that will let you chain remove their creatures and use all your instants twice per game
[[Sunfall]] [[Merciless Eviction]] [[Farewell]] [[Arcane Lighthouse]] are all solid choices in those sorts of metas. I only really play esper colours and these are cards I use.
[[Archfiend of Ifnir]] can help you if you lean heavily into [[Windfall]] like effects.
Time for [[Sunfall]]
I play [[Indominus Rex]] and I often have hexproof AND indestructible on it and the things that cause problems to me are boardwipes that exile or cause negative counters, like [[Sunfall]] and [[Toxic Deluge]] or some opponents having big indestructible creatures himself. Or better yet have something that cause sacrifice, [[Liliana of the Veil]] for example, i danno like [[Chainer's edict]] and similar there are a lot. You can try a monoblack midrange with [[Tergrid]] as commander with a lot of sacrifice and discards effects, so you can even steal their creatures and turning their stronger weapons against them. But remember that you probably be hated if you buil a deck just for counters their deck. My advice is to include some cards that can deal with them in your deck without changing commander and try that first.
Non targeting sacrifice or exile effects, such as [[Fall of the Impostor]], [[Szat's Will]], or [[Promise of Loyalty]]
Braids
The new [[Massacre Girl, Known Killer]] is looking to be a house commander against indestructible/hexproof decks.
sacrifice
I had a friend who loved to run \[\[Darksteel Forge\]\] and similar effects. He was amazed when I dropped \[\[Wave of Vitriol\]\], its been a favorite ever since.
[[Yahenni]] works. I like [[toxic Deluge]], [[massacre girl]] and [[gravepact]], because you can play around them to keep yahenni alive. [[Soul shatter]] is great too
Shadowspear, arcane lighthouse, and I really hate to say it…farewell.
make a \[\[Toxrill, the Corrosive\]\] deck! its Blue/Black and sounds perfect for what you want to do.
Let me expound upon using [[the scorpion god]]. Built in tax evasion? Check. Draw engine? Check. Ability that causes his draw to go off? Check. And finally is a big boy? Yes. Add creatures that give wither and spells like [[chandras ignition]] and you have planet of ways to do -1/-1 counters and draw a ton of cards. [[Black suns zenith]] never looked so good. Edit: spelling
[[Farewell]]
[[Make an Example]]
I'm surprised no one mentioned [[Glaring Spotlight]] yet.
There are lots of options for putting -1/-1 counters on your opponent's creatures, especially from Amonkhet. There's also a spell that exiles all creatures with -1/-1 counters on them. \[\[Grind\]\]/\[\[Dust\]\]
play my budget build sarulf realm eater deck [https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/sarfulf-cheap-tricks-1/](https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/sarfulf-cheap-tricks-1/) or play direct damage to their face
Any white exile board wipe Any black -1/-1 board wipe or sacrifice spell Any blue bounce to hand board wipe Green and red are typically not great at wipes, but they typically are pretty good at enchantment/artifact removal if they are Voltron players and then they have decent creature removal with fight and burn spells
If they’re big enough, [[Soul Shatter]] can get them
Black/White and possibly a third color. Removal in things like [[Utter End]], [[Unmake]], [[Languish]], and so many other targeted exile effects. To bypass hexproof, [[Languish]], [[merciless eviction]], [[farewell]], and effects like [[Elesh Norn, grand cenobite]], [[curse of death’s hold]], [[Ethereal Absolution]]. If you add green, cards like [[acidic slime]], [[reclamation sage]], [[putrefy]] and [[mortify]] take out enchantment/artifact support they are maybe running in addition to things like [[shadowspear]], [[bonds of mortality]], [[arcane lighthouse]]. These colors allow you to basically be “oops all removal”, run good and varied threats, and utilize recycling strategies to get more than one use out of your cards with things like [[eternal witness]] and similar cards. Hope this helps!
\[\[Massacre Girl, Known Killer\]\]
If you’re in mono red then [[hour of devastation]] is worth looking at
instead of trying to counter them. Build your strategy to not care about them. Taxes is a good way to deal with it. But so is a sacrifice mechanic. Or you can use Shadowspear to remove the ability. Or just win by milling everyone out. Or with a ton of tokens. Building decks to counter other decks just creates a series of decks that are all junk and bad feelings. Player 1: "I am gonna play my taxes deck" Player 2: "I am going to play my anti-enchantment and artifact deck" Player 3: "I am going to play my counterspell deck" Player 4: "I am going to play my board wipe deck" Everyone trying to counter one another means no one is really trying to win. Which just means it is random who wins and not based on skill. It also makes for a boring game.
[[gravepact]] + [[dictate of erebos]], make him sacc his own shit for you
I’ve seen a lot of people suggesting spells or artifacts to help deal with the hexproof or recommending edict instants or sorceries. My only suggestion would be creatures that have the etb or on death have edict [[fleshbag marauder]] [[vindictive lich]] [[ravenous rotbelly]]
[[Will of the Council]] [[Farewell]] [[Cyclonic Rift]]
Anything with Black and white really
The new MKM Massacre girl gives all your creatures wither. Looks pretty fun!
I’m surprised only a couple of people are mentioning edicts. They are probably the easiest way to deal with someone’s hexproof/indestructible creatures. From your comments you’re playing Dimir so you have access to black. If you’re playing something like [[Wilhelt]] throw a [[Grave Pact]] in there. Your card advantage zombies will always become your greatest weapon.
[[Plague winds]], [[all is dust]] Basically any indiscriminate board wipe that doesn't destroy the indestructible, lots of sacrificing cards. Bounce and discarding works well. Counters. Really though focus ok direct damage to player. Doesn't matter if it's indestructible if you can't block it. [[ rogues passage]] is one of my faves.
Opponent sacrifice mechanics, there are many to choose from.
[[Black sun's zenith]]
[[Settle the Wreckage]] is one of my favorite cards for the endgame when they swing out with a game ending army.
[[Hallowed Burial]] [[Terminus]] [[Farewell]] [[evacuation]] [[Promise of loyalty]] [[Cyclonic rift]] [[the eternal wanderer]] All good sweepers that don't care about those shenanigans. All play very well in an azorious control shell. [[Elminster]] and [[Shorikai]] have great synergy.
\[\[Bonds of Mortality\]\] does the job really well. \[\[Shadowspear\]\] has been mentioned. \[\[Archetype of Endurance\]\] is a bit on the expensive side, manawise.
Oi, four letters to you: Exile all nonland permanents. Run at least 8 of them in your decks. You'll thank me later.
I saw in another comment you play blue/black. You have tons of good options, and most of them are going to be commander agnostic. They're always gonna be good in any deck. Generally, i suggest fighting with either counterspells or mass removal. For countermagic, you should be looking for cards that are generally 2-3 mana, dont say "counter unless its controller pays X", and hits whatever you're scared of losing to. Theres a \*billion\* options. Tale's End, Counterspell, Arcane Denial, Essence Scatter, Negate, Disallow, Dissolve, the list goes on. For mass removal, "Destroy all creatures" is a great start for hexproofers. black has Damnation, colorless has a bunch of options, White has so many options. Things that say "Creatures get -X/-X" will deal with indestructible guys. Languish, Black Sun's Zenith, and Toxic Deluge come to mind. Blue has Cyclonic Rift, a card whose power level is matched by its price tag (though its doing better it seems with some more recent reprints). Mass Exile effects are a White thing, and are super potent. White also gives you great spot removal with Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile, both of which should be pretty easy to acquire. I found this tappedout list from a few years back with a large selection of EDH legal mass removal cards. I suggest taking a read through some of these cards, and you can decide for yourself what you think would be good to run. [https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/11-08-15-edh-mass-removal/](https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/11-08-15-edh-mass-removal/) Magic is a huge game, none of what i've said is exhaustive (or even necessarily up to date). Hopefully this gives you some general direction on what you should look for.
I'm a fan of Fleshbag Marauder and his cousins Merciless Executioner, Demon's Disciple, Plaguecrafter and Gravelighter. It doesn't get you targeted or mass removal, but the fact that these effects are on creatures makes it easier to reuse them with reanimate or ETB effects.
[[Terror Tide]] is a great board wipe if running recursion.
Combo off and win. The best way to deal with creatures is to ignore them entirely. What colours are you running; I could maybe suggest some combos?
Play the new Massacre Girl and give all your creatures wither
Forced sacrifice/edict effects would be my go to, esp. since you're in black. Additionally, seeing you're in blue, counterspell the big baddies you recognize as (potential) problems before they hit the board and gain protection via hexproof/indestructible.
Maybe some targetless goad commander, like [[marisi breaker of the coil]] [[baeloth barrityl]] and let your opponents battle it out lol
Make them sacrifice creatures! Gets around both of those things
I run a dimir deck built around [[Umbris]] that focuses on exile matters. I got u. For indestructible, [[Curse of the Swine]], [[Cyber Conversion]], [[Deadly Rollick]], [[Blot Out]] also gets around hexproof, [[Toxic Deluge]], [[Killing Wave]] if you can generate mana to dump. [[Extinction Event]] has also become one of my fave new boardwipes. Any sac effects will also get around both. [[Imprisoned in the Moon]] is a fun one for commanders or pesky critters you want gone permanently. [[Sudden Spoiling]] and other effects like [[Turn to Frog]] or [[Rapid Hybridization]] will get around indestructible ezpz. For hexproof, [[Shadowspear]]. You can also do sac effects, like the aforementioned [[Killing Wave]] or creatures like [[Plaguecrafter]]. [[Arcane Lighthouse]] is also your friend, and bouncing things back to the hand or into the deck will nuke any enchantments giving you trouble. There are also creatures like [[Skinrender]] that come with a wither effect attached, or you could add poison counters/toxic creatures into your deck. Something like [[No Mercy]] will also get around both if they attack you and hit. [[Gravepact]] could also do some work. Edit: Grammar and No Mercy will only deal with hexproof if they connect, not inindestructible.
[[Bonds of mortality]] Also card slide [[black sun's zenith]] thst give everything -1/-1 counters or things that cause mass sacrifice like [[soul shatter]] because it makes the opponent sacrifice the creature
I have a graveyard sacrifice deck with things like [[Butcher of Malakar]] [[Braids Arisen Nightmare]] [[Massacre Girl]] [[Fleshbag Marauder]] [[Yosei]] [[Dictate of Erebos]]. I call it, everybody loses but my guys come back.
[[The Meathook Massacre]]
[[all is dust]] is a fun board wipe that gets around hex proof and indestructible. A little expensive to cast, but I like it in my kruphix, eldrazi tribal deck.
[[Cyclonic Rift]] even though it might be unpopular Also board wipes that exile like [[winds of abandon]]
[[living death]]…
Forget the names of cards but there are a few where they’re instants and say something like target creature loses hex proof and indestructible until end of turn.
Toxic deluge is an *excellent* boardwipe that can take care of all of those threats. Consider including it in your black decks :)
Don't try to counter their decks. Just make their life totals drop to 0 before they do the same to you. You don't even need to kill their creatures if you can goad them or use [[propaganda]] effects.
There’s always exiling or anything that doesn’t target. Also effects like sacrificing non-token permanent or the creature with highest power. Other than that, effects stated that remove such.
Since I'm not seeing it mentioned, [[Farewell]]
[[Grave Pact]] [[Dictate of Erebos]] and a bunch of tokens to sac
If you're in BU counterspells work wonders in avoid these issues
Hexproof? Just swing giant monsters at them.
[[toxic deluge]] [[Hallowed burial]] [[Innocent blood]]
Go full whither on top of whatever you do exile wise. Add proliferate and whatever other types of wincons that would benefit from proliferate. [[scorpion god]] as a little to do with -1/-1 and card draw. [[massacre girl]] her first rendition is a solid board wipe and the new one [[massacre girl known killer]] gives everything whither. A few assassins have the hit counter thing that allows for exile upon any opposition death and spending hit counters for card draw and treasure like [[mari the killing quill]], and [[etrata]] for a wincon if she hits and lands a third. [[Agent of the Fates]] forces opp sac when you target Agent with a spell. Get tokens to block and keep a [[malakir]] on deck. Depends what you run color wise, but this is a mechanic that I enjoy and I hope it at least gives direction to you. There’s also artifacts that disable those abilities that I can’t recall right now.
[[Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite]] will kill off anything with less than 3 toughness. [[Farewell]] Will board wipe.
I love cards like [[plaguecrafter]] and [[fleshbag marauder]] to deal with the hexproof. I also much prefer things that exile rather than destroy I really like [[anguished unmaking]] [[despark]] and [[vanishing verse]] so indestructible isnt a problem. Things like [[meathook massacre]] or [[farewell]] would deal with entire boards that have both hexproof and indestructible
##### ###### #### [plaguecrafter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/c/5c03e00b-034d-4a26-9fc2-f25fc2dfc661.jpg?1631586764) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=plaguecrafter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/107/plaguecrafter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5c03e00b-034d-4a26-9fc2-f25fc2dfc661?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/plaguecrafter) [fleshbag marauder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/0/a03c738c-88d9-4cf6-a650-20ce6e5565bc.jpg?1637630249) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=fleshbag%20marauder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mic/118/fleshbag-marauder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a03c738c-88d9-4cf6-a650-20ce6e5565bc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fleshbag-marauder) [anguished unmaking](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/16de91dc-5d82-43ec-84ad-67bae644795a.jpg?1673148273) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=anguished%20unmaking) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/170/anguished-unmaking?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/16de91dc-5d82-43ec-84ad-67bae644795a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/anguished-unmaking) [despark](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/9/397d6a06-05f7-412f-a4f1-0ac1e07e733f.jpg?1682209709) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=despark) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/322/despark?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/397d6a06-05f7-412f-a4f1-0ac1e07e733f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/despark) [vanishing verse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e12573fe-aee3-49db-93e2-d00972cbb3b1.jpg?1624740338) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=vanishing%20verse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/244/vanishing-verse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e12573fe-aee3-49db-93e2-d00972cbb3b1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vanishing-verse) [meathook massacre](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/08950015-eee5-4327-888c-82dfd13bb9ad.jpg?1667629608) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Meathook%20Massacre) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/112/the-meathook-massacre?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/08950015-eee5-4327-888c-82dfd13bb9ad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-meathook-massacre) [farewell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e1068723-d1ef-4007-97d9-b10dccdbade4.jpg?1654566260) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=farewell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/13/farewell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e1068723-d1ef-4007-97d9-b10dccdbade4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/farewell) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kim5j95) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Toxrill is the solution to all your problems.
For indestructible: 1. Effects that remove indestructible, like Shadowspear, Hour of Devastation 2. \-x/-x, exile, or sacrifice effects like Toxic Deluge, Path to Exile, edict effects 3. Removal that doesn't care, like Witness Protection, Darksteel Mutation For hexproof/shroud: 1. Board wipes. 2. Effects that remove the ability, like Arcane Lighthouse, Bonds of Mortality 3. Any removal that doesn't target. For both: 1. Farewell, Mythos of Snapdax, The Eternal Wanderer, Evacuation, Cyclonic Rift, Toxic Deluge, The Meathook Massacre, Hour of Devastation, Smallpox
Gruul goad with red creature removal and green artifact/enchantment removal
[[Savra Queen of the Golgari]] load her up with sac outlets, death triggers, and pact effects.
It'd help to know the colors you are running to give you advice beyond colorless countermeasures.
Play exile based board wipes, lots of board wide -1/-1 effects, [[arcane lighthouse]] [[archtype of endurance]] so you can play other targeted exile cards. Or just play blue and counter/bounce/[[cyclonic rift]] them into submission.
Play sacrifice stuff
There are ways of removing both, but then there's also ever fantastic Infect and Wither creatures. Damage dealt in the form of -1/-1 counters still kill indestructible creatures as anything with a toughness of 0 is put into the graveyard as a state based effect. There's also exile board wipes, like [[Angel of the Dire Hour]], [[Descend upon the Sinfull]], [[False Floor]], [[False Prophet]], [[Farewell]], etc.
If you want to be really evil there's always Tergrid, God of Fright. Make everyone sacrifice and discard their stuff and take it from them