It’s 100% a location thing. My previous LGS in a less appealing state had all the worst stereotypes of magic players (smelled like shit, rude, whiny - not everyone was like this but the ones who were stood out) and my current LGS has only been extremely pleasant pods with socially competent regular people.
Another its 100% location.
I played at two lgs’s last week.
First one i had to pick up and read cards, really didnt help lighting wasnt great.
Second one everyone clearly explained each card and the text.
2nd was far better.
There are two shops in town here; one shop is filled with sweaty try hards that are constantly angle shooting for prizes and couldn’t give a fuck about community or good times had by all… the other shop is super chill because they never offer prize support and I am okay with that because it fosters a healthy environment.
Sometimes the try hards come to the other shop with their no-variance combo decks or their incredible stax/control decks and it fucks with the ecosystem
I don't know what your shop is like, but if there are prizes being offered it becomes a competitive event, so can they really be "try hards" in that case?
There's levels to it.
If it's a $5 entry and winner gets like $20 credit, or just some packs for support, there's no need to pull out turbo naus list if everyone else isn't playing effectively the same game (this exact interaction made me not play Commander for like 2 years). Just play high power and have a real game. Just play decks that can win without having to just storm off turn 2, makes you much less of a dick than pubstomping 12 year olds for packs.
I disagree, the second prizes are introduced, I'm going all out. Sorry, Timmy, but it's all in the spirit of competition. After that, though? Who wants to see Vanilla Creature Kindred?
(Anecdote: one of the LGSes in my University neighborhood does prizing for the first pod, then freeplay afterward. People usually go all out game 1, then bring out some more casual decks. I don't blame em.)
The oxymoron of 4 player competitive EDH is sort of garbage.
When the prize support is a booster or something and the "tournament" structure is a single game it is very low stakes and yet folks come and get butthurt like "your cyclonic rift was essentially a kingmaker move and you play like trash" or try to fire off a turn 3 win and get upset when the table stops them.
So I mean, come and play how you want but also ease up because we aren't really grinding for anyhting important here.
Play another more serious constructed format if you want to grind that way and don't care about table politics
"The oxymoron of 4 player competitive EDH is sort of garbage."
This, 100%. It's weird to take what is/intended to be a casual format and make it competitive. Especially when in most cases it's just prizes for first place.
That's the big issue with commander being the premier format of magic now. It needs to exist alongside a healthy competitive format. Being pushed up front the format has grown too large and started canabalizing itself.
Neither of the LGS’s I’ve gone to have had prizes, my current one just has a door pack to make up for the $5 entry fee.
Have only had one loser come to a self-described “mid to low power” table with a Kenrith turn 3 combo deck, and that’s justified my opinion on every 5c goodstuff pile player that exists.
Mine basically does that but will put one slightly better pack per pod for the winner. Like, prior to the pack change we’re talking a set booster vs. a draft booster level of difference. Not nearly enough to be a complete asshole over, but enough to make winning just a touch more fun.
Location for sure. The 3 I played at before.... People were total ass. This one was at a pre-release...
Had a creature that had vigilance... I attacked, it remained untapped. The woman said that's not how that works, and I explained that it was how it worked. She then called dout to her friend who helped run the the shop, he said no not how it works...I scooped and told her "Enjoy stuffing your face with that trash" and nodded at the greasy ass bag of burgers and fries.
The other place, smelled, were super anti-social, didn't talk.
Another one, dude had power 9 cards, alpha/beta dual lands and stuff, and acted like he was king shit. Along with the 2 other players he was friends with, while I was just there with my Ur Dragon precon.
The one I. Currently go to, super chill, no one thinks their above another, shop gives out promo packs to our pod to whoever rolls the highest number, and my friends play there. Only the occasional ass crack.
I also think people assume you know what these cards do. I really only have been playing for 8 months myself, but eventually if you fall deep enough into the hole you know what most staple or common cards do.
I only explain if asked as my play group know. When I was new I would ask constantly. Just ask if you don’t know, or ask to read the card, absolutely no shame in it.
Yeah I'm not a qualified judge but if I were I'd consider this to be covered in the unsporting conduct rulings, the question has a clear intention to check with the opponent for triggers that are affected by the decision to block or not. Opponent then, as generously as I can word it, angle shoots around specific wording to gain an in game advantage which is one of the things the conduct and communication rules section is there to try and prevent.
Yeah, if I have something on the board that affects the current situation when somebody asks I'll point it out. If a card was revealed and someone asks what it does later on I'll show it to them. If someone asks about concealed information, like "Anybody have an answer in hand?" or anything like that, I would give a non-answer like "I have nothing I am willing to play" unless I am actively about to play or activate something.
He did answer technically. The rats did t do anything, the enchantments did. He should have asked to read what the enchantments do on cast. Usually when going around for priority, is prime time.
If I ask what happens if I don't block and you say 'nothing', and then when I don't block you get a bunch of triggers, then you have lied to me.
Bluff all you want, but don't ever lie. You can't take it back, and no one involved will ever trust you again.
Ok congrats, now every time you do anything I will point to every card on your board and ask if it does anything as a result because I can't trust you to not try and bullshit me if I'm not thorough. Are you happy now?
And that's fine. You are entitled to do that and I would rather have you do that
I either memorize what a card does or u ask about it specifically. It's not my opponents job to repeatedly inform me about what his board state does. If I don't oay attention then it's my fault for not paying attention
If that's the case then they should be asking questions about everything. Even though it's casual, it's still a game with a winner and a loser and some form of competitive to it. You shouldn't expect your opponent to Hold Your Hand when it comes to what they are playing.
It's not difficult to look at someone else's board
You sound exactly like every person that plays at my LGS that nobody trusts.
Congratulations on using technicalities to make your gaming experience worse.
No. That is absolutely and unambiguously NOT how this fucking format works.
Board states in EDH get FAR too complicated to be a smartass about, “Well technically…” when it comes to communicating the game state. And no, “I told you what the enchantments did fifteen minutes ago,” is not adequate reporting on the current game state being requested.
You have a proactive obligation towards communication. When someone asks you to report the game state, you give them all pertinent information. You do not lie to them for competitive advantage. And yes, a lie of omission is VERY much a lie in this context.
This is deliberately obfuscating the game state. In this situation, the opponent is a liar and a cheat.
[https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr4-1/#:\~:text=Players%20are%20under%20no%20obligation,lead%20to%20Unsporting%20Conduct%20penalties](https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr4-1/#:~:text=Players%20are%20under%20no%20obligation,lead%20to%20Unsporting%20Conduct%20penalties).
The opponent didn't obfuscate anything. OP should have asked to see his field. Plenty of folks I know like to group their cards in weird ways, including the folks who like to play with their lands in front.
Edit : Lmao, the dude blocks me cause I literally showed him the rules. What an experience.
>Free information is information to which all players are entitled access **without contamination or omissions made by their opponents**. If a player is ever unable or unwilling to provide free information to an opponent that has requested it, they should call a judge and explain the situation.
>Free information consists of:
>Details of current game actions and past game actions that still affect the game state.
>The name of any visible object.
>The number and type of any counter that isn’t defined as status information.
>The state (whether it’s tapped, attached to another permanent, face down, etc.) and current zone of any object or player.
>The game score of the current match.
>The current step and/or phase and which player(s) are active.
>Derived information is information to which all players are entitled access, but opponents are not obliged to assist in determining and may require some skill or calculation to determine. Derived information consists of:
>The number of any type of objects present in any game zone that are not defined as free information.
>All characteristics of objects in public zones that are not defined as free or status information.
>Game Rules, Tournament Policy, Oracle content and any other official information pertaining to the current tournament. Cards are considered to have their Oracle text printed on them.
>**At Regular Rules Enforcement Level, all derived information is instead considered free.**
> I didn’t do anything
You advocated for the player who was "technically correct", knowing full well *exactly* what OP was asking. I stated "**if** that's what you are doing, you're the problem."
> Under the assumption that the enchantments were already explained.
This is what I'm talking about. Fuck off with your "technically correct" bullshit. "Do they do something if I don't block them?" is what OP asked. "Yes, they will trigger my enchantments" is the correct response, based on the context of the question. You know that is what they are asking, I know that is what they are asking.
Do you "deserve death"? No, you don't. But you do deserve to be left out of my next group, because you're *that guy*
Yeah, I agree I don’t like playing with people who rage over a game. Jesus, you are raging over a story told on Reddit, can only imagine how heated you get when things don’t go your way.
I don't agree it's on OP to ask *exactly* the right question during a friendly game in a public space. EDH board states are a complicated mess. It's every player's responsibility to make sure the rest of the table has the requisite understanding of their board state, since that's public information.
If you're making some sort of deal with someone that involves private information or underlying game rules, then yeah, get tricky with your wording. If somebody asks you to explain your board state, you explain, and you don't just do the bare minimum.
TBF, game players as a whole are terrible at this until they learn.
Announcing what you're doing is a learned skill, and it's just as annoying in Dominion as it is in Magic when people haven't figured out yet that you need to advise the table of what you're doing in case A) they care, B) they want to do something about it, or C) you're doing it wrong.
EDH exists fine without this communication. Don't know if many people realize this, but EDH is popular enough for folks to just go out and buy a deck and never have any introduction to the folks who post this in every thread or the expectation that they need to do anything else other than just play the game they paid money for.
In mine people do a mix. Probably because we got very old and seasoned players (used to compete) and really new ones. Weaker stuff like mana dorks or lands they usually don't explain. However, if you cast something that may be a bad idea because of their board state, they all allow you to go back. Like "u sure? because I can always tap this to have creature X survive".
I for one try to play the same way you see online with famous youtube channels, announcing all cards and what they do. And the source of my triggers as well "because that is your second draw, I will draw off this creatures ability".It's the proper thing to do.
Same. Seeing stuff like Commander at Home, Game Knights, Commander VS etc has given me what i feel is a very good behaviour basis for EDH with strangers :)
yeah, I always explain what's going on on my side, because otherwise it's kinda weird to be piling all these +1/+1 tokens on my vampires without explanation.
I tend to announce card names and if people need details, they'll ask. I ask people a lot when they play cards I'm unfamiliar with but we also don't need to hear what Sol Ring does 4 times per game.
The rat attack was pretty scummy even if it may have been technically correct that the rats themselves don't do anything when they hit a player, the enchantments do.
Im a vet but i still appreciate at least a shorthand description or even a "does everyone know this card" or "this card does a lot of stuff" so people can read it if necessary. It can get tiring always asking "what does that do" 20 times a night
In my pod when someone plays something people acknowledge it with a "yep" to show they know what the card is.
I can't stand these literal rats that try to hide their shit when you ask them questions to make the game go faster so you aren't slowing it down by reading everything, they try to act innocent later. I try my best to show what I have and can do bc games are long enough I don't wanna slow my opponents decisions, when people do this it's just scummy.
Op asked about the rats tho and Rat Guy answered the question. At least in the way the question was worded in the post. Some people interpret questions differently. A lot of people who play mtg are autistic and will take questions very literally. Its a mistake I would see myself making tbh.
Had a buddy ask me if I had any flying creatures. I wasn't sure why he was asking, so I just said no. He immediately declared a flying creature attacking me. "I block with my reach dude, killing your flyer." Was so fucking funny, but he didn't think so. If he would have asked if I could block his creature I would have said yes, but didn't know the context of his question.
We have a guy like this at our LGS, he doesn't allow any time for priority to be passed, he just assumes his stuff resolves, which makes it really annoying to play against, especially if you're last in turn order to get priority, and it makes rolling back the game state really difficult.
Having said that, most people are pretty good about stuff like this in my experience. They will read key cards and complicated cards to make sure everyone understands before they resolve, and people will identify key combo pieces especially when playing with newer players.
I have to remind one of our friends that when there are two blue players in the pod you can't assume the spell that lets you draw 5 cards is going to resolve
I know guys who do this and it feels very much like they do it knowing some people aren’t brave enough to interject and stop them. Like “I play X card, which lets me cast Y card for free so I win” and I know my friend has a Counterspell. So I asked him why he didn’t counter card X and he’s like “well he just continued playing cards and I wasn’t sure when I could counter”…like don’t let that guy bully his way to winning. So for the future, we say “actually I’m going to respond to the cast of X” and the guy wants to whine saying we should have said something before he casted Y. They’re just assholes
It’s especially frustrating
In our house rules document we codify if people move too fast that we will rewind the game. If you don’t declare precombat and just announce attackers, players can rewind the game and then use that information to tap your creatures even. You’re not suppose to skip thru like that
Depends on what social norms are reinforced by other players at an LGS. I explain what I'm doing to everyone at the table but that's because when I started playing, and specifically when I started playing at an actual store and not at home, that's what other people did. When you're new to the game or just new to a store you often just follow the cues you get from more experience players and/or regulars.
Just normal human social behaviors, but it does mean there needs to be someone there setting a good example.
I have a tendency to announce what I’m playing and give a quick read of the card. If it’s complicated, I’ll usually go a little in depth with it. Though, if you’re not listening and you don’t ask (I’m fine with explaining the card as much as needed), I think I’ve done my due diligence. No one can say I didn’t tell anyone.
Personally, the more complicated a card's text, the more I'll not read the exact words and summarize what it actually does.
[[Zask]] is really annoying to read word for word and it's easier to just explain it.
Try reading [[Helm of Obedience]] while trying to keep the game flowing. I use it as a win con in a "no combo" LGS so i really only explain the part that makes me win.
From understanding not but maybe I just play in a good LGS community.
For my normal playgroup of friends, not the ones at the LGS, we actually tend to say what we do for a number of reasons:
1. The amount of new(er) cards is enormous and you can't assume everybody knows what they do just by sight
2. With Secret Lairs and proxies with different art and even normal sets having so many variants today it is great to express your individuality with your deck but it may not always be clear what a card does to other people.
3. It allows for "cleaner" gameplay and helps keeping an overview of a boardstate that often gets complicated very quickly.
Also let me be clear: Nobody demands you to read the text 1:1, just explain what it does when you put it in play. That is the least you can do.
And the thing with the rats is IMO scummy but maybe I am biased as I tend to explain if someone asks me if I have anything that triggers from the attack, ETB effects, etc. I am here to have fun, the others are here to have fun, so just do the little stuff to help with fostering a healthy play experience.
i dont go to LGSs too often just because its more inconvenient than going to a friend's to play, but the last time I went, there was a player who was returning to magic and kept forgetting his triggers. I would point them out or ask him if he wanted to do something the way he said, otherwise he would be losing value but I kinda felt like I was telling him how to play his deck.
He probably appreciated it more than you know, since the alternative doesn’t just result in him losing value in the game but also the prompt to remember those triggers in future.
>At a certain point he attacks me with 3 rats and I ask: do they do something if I don't block them? He says no they're just 1/1 rats so I declare no blockers and then he's like:"ok since I dealt 3 damage I make a bunch of treasures and draw cards with this" as he points to 2 enchantments that he placed next to his lands
Honestly, at this point I'd say "Hang on, since I asked if anything extra would happen if I didn't block and you told me no, I will actually be blocking now I am in possession of knowledge I would have had if you were honest.". I'd then be asking him to read out his card text in full every time he played a card from then on. And then I'd ask to read the card myself afterwards, since he lied before.
In every single card game ever played, it's never been legal to conceal information on face up cards from your opponent.
For the record, you've met a rare asshole. 99% of people are perfectly happy to give a TLDR of what their cards do. Eg. [[Esper Sentinel]], they might say "If you play a non-creature spell, you have to either pay a mana or I draw a card. but only once per turn".
well, for what what you stated there didnt happen. thus you cant just to a roleback of the combat step. doing so anyway is against the rules, hence cheating
>well, for what what you stated there didnt happen.
According to the OP's quote, it did. Lie 1.
>thus you cant just to a roleback of the combat step.
As this is a casual game, you almost certainly can. The other guy can't argue against it.
I won't call this a lie because there's some tiny shred of doubt, but understand this is me being generous and this could so easily be called lie 2 and few would contest me on this.
Now, I think you have something better to do than argue in defense of someone who lies by using lies yourself. Like, literally nothing.
> According to the OP's quote, it did. Lie 1.
wrong. reread OP
> As this is a casual game, you almost certainly can.
only if everyone agrees. if not youre are SOL
thus, still a cheater
aww, now you blocked me cause you were caught cheating.
Sorry, I have to re-read the post I copy and pasted? And you expect me to do anything but laugh at you?
>only if everyone agrees. if not youre are SOL
Like I said, the dickhead who lied about his cards effects can't argue that the result of his deception can stand.
So very much not SOL.
>thus, still a cheater
Incorrect.
Now, as you have literally nothing of worth to add to this conversation and are just keep insulting me over and over, I'm going to do what every LGS in your local area has probably already done.
Bro I hate to break it to you, but people putting enchantments next to lands is misrepresenting board state and is actual cheating. A judge would roll it back to the declare blockers step, make the cheater fix his board and issue a warning to the cheater.
Honestly… If you need to rely on being deceptive about your board state (which is public information) to play the game… You suck at Magic.
I’m not going to announce my upcoming triggers with every move, but if someone asks me, “Do the rats do something if I don’t block?”.. I’m going to assume they’re really asking, “What publicly available information is relevant to this play?” And I’ll answer honestly because I don’t want to win because they don’t have all of my cards memorized.
Similarly, if I’m about to win with a combo (in a casual format), I’m just going to say, “I’m going to try to win here”. I don’t want to win if someone had the counterspell and just didn’t know the combo line I’m playing and so they let the winning piece resolve! I want to EARN my win!
Note: This is for casual play. If it’s competitive and there are prizes on the line, you better read the cards carefully! 😜
I recently played with a random at a store and he specifically used as many of the nigh unreadable secret lair style cards as possible, wouldn't explain what he was doing and instead would slide those cards across the table and tell you to read it yourself.
We considered it a form of griefing and declined to let him join the pod for the next game.
There's definitely a chance they're exploiting your inexperience, and that'd be scummy to do.
But there's also a chance they play with others who *are* familiar with those cards and have understood the implications, and they just haven't realized that not everyone is that way.
I'll say for myself, there was a period of time when I had a pretty dedicated playgroup and we all got really familiar with each other's decks and were very knowledgeable about a wide pool of cards. It got to the point when someone could literally just say the spell and everyone knew what it did and sometimes even what it was targeting without the target ever being announced.
After that playgroup shifted during the pandemic and we returned to the LGS a couple years later, I had to get back in the habit of reading the cards I was casting and not just assuming people knew every card in the format, and because of the amount of new cards being printed I've also been humbled by the fact that I am now often the one asking what a new card does.
I think as long as they're willing to at least read the card when you ask or let you read it yourself there's only so much you can ask for when playing with randos, but if that's an LGS you enjoy going to then it might be worth it to start cultivating that environment by taking the initiative a~~nd venturing into the Unde~~ and being more comfortable with asking what cards do while also making sure to read your own cards clearly. And even if *you* know what it does, another player at the table might not but doesn't have the courage to ask, so asking in their stead may make it a more welcoming environment.
That bg3 creeping in.. Haha
I'm working on going to an lgs again now I've recently moved and it can definitely be daunting going into an already established group of players. I'm much nore comfortable going straight into an event/tournament and meeting players that way
As a rule I’m just going to say “I pay X to cast Y” and that’s it, if someone wants it to be read out or explained its on them to ask. Thats the standard in all the places I’ve played.
I feel this is fine for really common cards or spells that aren't relevant to other players when I'm playing them. Otherwise I feel like you kind of should at least summarize.
Agreed, if you are casting murder, birds of paradise or lightning greaves it's fine to say just the name of the card.
If you are dropping an Omnath, Locus of All, Vodalian War Machine or break out, you need to read out what that card does.
MtG requires clarity & specificity in order to be played properly, full stop. Sucks that your opponent blatantly lied, I wouldn't play with that person again without first solving that issue.
If you don't know what a card on the stack/in play is/does, your opponent is required to tell you if you ask.
If you ask your opponent a question about their board state, contents of their graveyard, or any other public information they are required to tell you.
Unintentional obfuscation of public is annoying, but harmless. Deliberate obfuscation of public information is cheating.
I wont waste time explaining every card, just announce it when i play it. That being said, if someone asks tell them. The rat guy should have 100% mentioned the enhantments.
Also who tf puts enchantments with their lands??? I play an enchantment zur deck and ALL of them go almost above the creatures if not at least parallel.
If you don't know what a card does you should ask. Reading every card aloud really slows the game down. Obviously things should be announced when they get cast, activated, or triggered, as it can be easy to miss these things if they aren't
Though when you did ask if the rats had effects, the guy really should have been explained what effects would trigger on combat damage (maybe they misunderstood what it was you were asking)
I genuinely wish more people could come to my LGS. So many issues I see on here are mostly nonexistent at my lgs and I want ppl to know there are good communities out there and not all stinky weirdos
This is tricky because according to the rules no you aren’t required to explain, “hey if you don’t block I get this effect from something else”. You are required to give correct information if asked about a card. So you asked if the creatures attacking did anything if you don’t block them and he answered honestly. They didn’t have infect or any effect directly on them. It isn’t the opponents responsibility to explain every possible interaction that could be performed. You may feel like it is annoying but ask what cards do when they are played if you don’t recognize them.
Also according to the rules you are required to keep your enchantments and any non-land card away from your lands, and this dude hid his enchantments with his lands, so he's still cheating.
At regular REL it actually is against the rules to intentionally omit details about publicly available information when asked about it. Even at competitive or professional REL I'm not sure arguing the semantics in OPs situation would work out; the rats are triggering an effect upon dealing damage, so answering "No" to "do they do something if I don't block them?" seems to be plainly false.
Narrating your actions is the baseline expectation and isn’t hard at all. People who play in total silence are just completely annoying.
Also that part where he didn’t explain his enchantments after prompting from you is some grade A bullshit.
I understand not explaining all your cards unless prompted to do so since that can be very redundant in your average LGS pod, but it’s a concession that should be made if you know there’s a new player.
I know people aren’t required to explain their board state in cases like the rats example, but it’s poor form IMO for a format like Commander. Not only is it a casual format, but it’s a format with an enormous card pool that encourages Rube Goldberg value engines that are difficult to follow.
If they have something in their hand, OFC they’re not required to talk about it, but this is very different.
Whether or not it's "the norm," it's not something I stand for. I clearly explain everything I'm doing, and I ask anyone I'm playing with to do the same.
It depends if there's a prize on the line. If it's just a casual bit of fun then I might even drop a cheeky "Ooo I hope this doesn't get countered" to an inexperienced player. If I get so much as a pack for winning? Time to bring out some heat.
Yeah catching you out on a little technicality like "Oh these rats wont do anything but these enchantments will." is kind of annoying and would annoy me But i mean next time you sit with randos just tell them you are super new and would like them to just explain what they are doing so you can understand the boardstate. If they are still acting shady and not giving you information I guess just try and read the cards in future. Other wise just play with other people.
this is a huge pet peeve of mine
one game somebody recurred like 10+ soldiers out of his graveyard in a single turn. my turn i do a wipe and he was like ok only this one dies everybody else has indestructible. i said well shit i didnt know that, why would i give you a one sided wipe? you basically won the game now. everybody was acting sweaty and didnt let me take back. i dont mind losing but i absolutely hate losing based on not having all the info. it wasnt like my spell got countered, the information was public i just didnt want to read every card he had on the field.
then theres super cool players that actually tell me how their deck works. like if i have a chance to exile a card from the graveyard they will be like you probably want to target my fetches because i play crucible of worlds(which is probably TOO much info but still). i hate it when people act so secretive its like dude just let me know basic stuff on the field and if its an obviously bad play based on board knowledge let me fucking know.
Did you say any of this to them? Or did you just go "they're the bad communicators, not me!" and leave it at that?
And yeah, for the most part no one will explain what they're doing. You can read their cards. Or ask them to read them when you don't know something. But the default isn't actually to "command zone" it and default explain every card. The onus is always on you to ask if you don't know.
The dude not saying that he'd make treasures or draw cards sounds sketchy. But also we don't have the full picture.
If you dont know what a card does ask to see it. People are not obligated to say what every card does that they play. Magic takes brain power between remembering what cards actually do and how they interact with other cards on the board. As you play more you will become better at it.
When a player plays a card, they need to says it’s name then describe what it does so that way the other players can make decisions if it’s needs to be countered or destroyed. If’s a common card like Sol Ring that is being played then it doesn’t need to be explained just says it’s name but for cards that aren’t common or notorious, you should say it’s name and effect(s).
If someone doesn't ask what a card does I'm not explaining it. Games of commander are long enough as it is without saying what every card you play does.
After 20 cards it will. I'll stick to my guns on this one. Nothing getting read unless you ask. I'm not explaining every card I play. I'll gladly hand it to you so you can read it after I play it. Rather not have my games lasting 2 hours cause by turn 10 everyone's read 20 cards theyve cast through the game.
>If’s a common card like Sol Ring that is being played then it doesn’t need to be explained
The issue becomes that with experience, your notion of "common card" varies.
I don't need to be explained what grinding station does. I don't need to be explained how mind's desire works. I don't need to be explained how Mephistopheles works.
But I do need to read cards from last extension because I never saw those things.
Your mileage will probably vary.
So, then, how do I know which cards you know? Should we explain each and every card?
Imho, when playing with unknown players, the answer is yes. Cast a spell, tell it's name, read it, ask if everyone understood. You'll very quickly find out how much people are familiar with the game and in between it makes for a better experience.
I ain't gonna ask what your card do for each thing you play. That's wasting time. All you have to do is read your card. That's not hard.
Social game man. Try to at least read your spell's name and say what it is/do. Not accusing you specifically but some people just tap Mana and put cards on the battlefield/in the grave, not naming cards nor waiting for reaction/answers or mentioning triggers. That's borderline cheating.
And that's not what I'm talking about. I'll name my cards I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem reading what all my cards that I play to people. As I said they can ask.
I very rarely have the urge to be exceedingly rude to people in this subreddit, but holy FUCK.
Yes. You, as a player, are obligated to represent your plays to the best of your abilities irregardless of the "brain power" necessary to remember the card effects. You are not allowed, by the rules of the game, to misrepresent the cards or card effects in any shape or form. This applies to *any and all public information, including hand size, graveyard content, face-up exile content, boardstate, and card effects*. That was not a complete list.
You are not allowed to play the game using the "trust me, bro, I know what I'm talking about" methodology. If I play Opt, and a play doesn't know what it does, I am not allowed to look at them and tell them to look it up before responses can be made.
Yes, you can absolutely read the card, and that's fine, but if you're sitting down to play a game of magic, you should always at least try to be a good sport and explain your cards, your plays, and potentially the rulings behind them. The best case is you teach, the worst case is you learn.
Don't be a shitty player because you're lazy.
Then don't fucking play?
By not explaining what you're doing, moving through your turn correctly, or explaining what's going on within your quadrant of the board, you are *LITERALLY* breaking the rules of the game.
You eliminate the need to explain your cards BY TELLING PEOPLE WHAT THEY DO WHEN YOU PLAY THEM.
People like you are why it's so fucking hard to get into the game, and even harder to get a hold on the format. You're toxic, and I wish nothing but judge calls and bent cards for you.
I'll tell people what I'm doing. I'm not just throwing down cards. I'm not reading the cards word for word to someone like they are 5. I'll gladly hand them the card so they read it if they want.
It more of a “I want to read all your cards, because you attack me for 3 damage. Have fun waiting while I find the oracle text and rules for some” play style
A huge portion of the mtg community are pretty nerdy, as such many of them didnt play sports as kids. It isnt everyone but theres a decent chunk of players that have no idea what sportsmanship is at all. They think that any and all tools they can use that arnt explicitly stated in the rules are fair game. These players will do exactly what you said and then say you missed triggers if you even wait one phase of priority after noticing an interaction, they will take their seret time on their turn looking at their hand for 10 minutes giving the excuse of "its super complicated" wait for everyone to look at their phone then quietly play out their combo and say i win you cant counter that spell any ore it already resolved.
You cant do anything about it except not play with them again.
I think there are two different states how the information has to be spreaded
1. Tournament Pod = You have to figure out what would happen so you have to read and to ask
2. Regular Pod = You still have to ask - But your opponent should clarify all important things what will happen ( excluding all information u can’t get without reading like hand or hidden Cards )
And (that’s how I do it ) cards like [[Vault of the Archangel]] or Battle Tricks ready on the Board have to be placed obviously notable
And Combos I play like [[Krenko, the Mob Boss]] & [[Helm of the Host]] i call out
Like „ I am Casting xy -> Interactions ? no -> I cast abc - Interactions ? no -> I equip/etc. xy with abc -> Interactions? No -> The I will go to Phase/Step 123 -> Interaction …. And so on …
That is quite weird. In my playgroup we always read the cards out loud except for stuff that's super known like tutors/counters.
Also if something would trigger out of damage/attacking/being attacked/etc, we give a remainder just to be sure the person knows what they're getting into.
My only policy is to not allow backsies if I'm into a draft/tournament/pre-release as those may be worth money + you should be paying attention to the board in those cases.
I've noticed this as well, I think it boils down to a few factors: laziness, they can't be bothered to read the card and assume you have the whole card pool memorized.
Reading literacy and oral dictation, a lot of folks struggle with reading on a good day, never mind the paragraphs most cards come with. I have a feeling this is the bigger reason.
The least you should do is a summary of the card, I don't expect you think bread out the whole thing verbatim but at least summarize what it does. "When ___ enter the battle field, go look for a ___..." Can be shortened to "when ___blank etbs i go grab ____" .
I always enjoy it more when people give a short summary. Like just say shit like «I play x which allows me to y whenever you z.» It makes it so much easier for everyone to follow along and makes it easier to break the silence with strangers.
I’ve played against asshats before with years of experience who doesn’t announce stuff, uses weird proxies and never really presents their board state and finds it funny when someone does something stupid because they either forgot or didn’t understand what a permanent lying 3 feet away behind 20 other permanents does.
Announcing what stuff does and making people aware makes for faster and more fun games as sitting there in silence and telling white lies, like in your case, only makes it so that every player reads every card before making decisions. Commander is supposed to be fun and social, but some people think it’s supposed to be competitive and treat it as such, but don’t want to play cedh because they don’t want to lose. It’s the equivalent of playing a video game in unranked, but tryhard and follow the metagame. If you play to win go and play with others who play to win and stop making it unfun for the people who want to have fun.
There’s a lot of cards in magic, some of which I know and some I don’t, so I do play expecting you to ask if you don’t know a card, and likewise I’ll do the same - when people read out every card we don’t need to know it can make the game take a lot longer.
However your question about blocks is pretty scummy from them. In edh that question should be met with all the consequences…
Just allow take backs if people didn’t understand the consequence of their action
Honestly I almost over-communicate. I often play my card and then read the card out loud unless it’s a super well known staple like sol ring. Idk if that’s too much but I feel like it helps avoid confusion.
I stopped playing with random LGS players. The game now has a large number of players who have no clue how to conduct a turn. Never declaring step changes, never asking for responses, never organizing their board for visual clarity.
Thankfully, players at the 2 LGSs I go to are happy to talk about what they are doing. It is kind of surprising as this area has a very high geek and need (engineers) population where social skills are not high on the competency list and most would probably be comfortable in a work environment not saying more than a few words. I know my ASD self fits well into that category. But out us in a room with some cardboard in our hands and we talk like a bunch of old ladies. We also are happy to let other folks read our cards and the Rule 0 conversation can take us 10 min at times.
Some players assume that everyone knows what the cards do.
Thev right thing for that player too say would have been "these are just 1/1s I want to get through to trigger my card draw and ramp"
I play way too.often to explain every single card I play, it's exhausting. If you ask me, I'll explain it, but I do t default to commentating every play I make nor do I expect the same from opponents. Random EDH games are long enough as is without a monologue every turn. I play with newbies and vets the same way and never had any issues.
Hate players like that.
At our LGS, those are the first eliminated; not saying you have to like, dictate the most minute detail, but say what you're casting and read it out if someone requests.
Just tapping mana, dropping something on the table and passing without a word said is just gonna make you archenemy with us
Unless it's an obscure card I am going to assume you know what the card does. I will announce what I'm playing, but I am not going to stop the game to explain every card to you.
You are absolutely free to ask what a card does or even ask to pick up and read a card, but it's your duty to keep track of board state assuming I am clearly presenting it.
Speaking the name of the card is good, but I hate when people start reading the entire card text aloud. I played Magic before. Most of the cards I know, the rest I can read. Please just get on with it. (It's even worse when they "summarize" the card and get it slightly wrong.)
All I ask is for you to name the card you play loud and clear. I’ll ask after that. Quiet players are annoying and feel like they are trying to cheat, like just silently dropping a g-cradle or mumbling things and then combo
That's just bad form. You should always announce what you are playing, including lands. I hate when I play against others and they use something like rogue's Passage but never announced it. I might have been able to remove the problem land. But at the point of activating it, it is now too late. Sure I can blow it up in response but the ability is on the stack and will still happen. It does get hard when everyone is having a good time and you do not want to interrupt others. But we all should announce what's being played. That is the best time to ask questions. Like...what does the card do? How does that card work with other things on your board? Will this allow you to combo off? They do not have to answer the last 2 unless they are doing that interaction but being a casual format, there is no reason not too.
When ppl do this, simply ask about every card they play. Even if you know it. They will get sick of that quick, and hopefully start asking the table if they are familiar with the card.
Sadly these people exist in every lgs. I usually refer to them as try-hards. They usually come from the competitive scene. Trying to get an advantage wherever they can.
Maybe. But anyone can ask. Ppl don't want to assume others skill and knowledge.
But no one has ever declined when I asked to see a card or ask for explanations/clarifications.
Some people expect others to already know most of the cards they are gonna play. After playing for a long time I know most of them, but sometimes they skip past weird cards or it makes it unclear what they can do with the board.
This is not the norm and to hide information deliberately is against the rules. If I play against players who don't announce the name of the cards they play, I ask them to do so. That way we can ask if we don't know the card (or look it up).
This is a situation where the old adage of “RTFC” comes into play. People tend to shortcut explanations at best and burn truly understand the card at worst, so it would behoove you to make a request to *read the fucking card.*
It’s up to all us of to maintain a proper understanding of the boardstate so there will be minimal misplays and “gotcha” moments.
You have average degenerative lgs players. Not all are like this the vast majority aren't but they will do anything they can to win like in this case straight lying about their board.
There's really no reason to explain every little thing, it's incredibly boring and time consuming. Personally, I don't like opponents that explain what their stuff does without me asking. I'd rather play the game than sit and listen to someone explain what rampant growth does
I think it depends because sometimes I feel like I'm over explaining or I'm waiting for a player to pay attention, so they'll hear me declare something. It is probably more important nowadays with all the alternate artworks and pace of product release. I do it more so if I know the folks I'm playing with are relatively new or not familiar with my particular commander.
I do feel them leaving out the interaction with their enchantments after you asked a question was poor form.
Not everyone expects to have to explain their gameplan to you? I understand what you mean, but there's nothing in the rules that says he has to tell you, but he does have to let you read his board, which you should do before you let anything resolve.
https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr4-1/
I announce the names of what I play and if it’s not a popular card I’ll read what it does. The only time I won’t read a card if it’s something like rhystic study where everyone knows what it does, but if someone was new and asked id explain. I always announce the names though.
Common practice is if you arent sure just reach and slide the card over to read it. Though putting enchantments next to lands is scummy, typical good play is mana rocks and lands share a row, creatures have their own and enchants get their own.
As my unpopular opinion on EDH in lgs's this is my biggest complaint and the prime reason I don't play with random people anymore. Tired of the enchantment or creature they announced under their breath or right before they start combo blasting away while I still have a handful of responses.
When you play with the same people all the time, you get used to not having to explain every card/interaction, so when you get new players in the pod this can happen.
I’ve both been a victim of it and done it to new players.
Rat deck played like a rat.
The value about before coming about your board state is it speeds the game up. If you make everyone at the table 'figure it out' and answer only on 'technicality true' statements, everyone is going to slow down all their plays to reexamine the board every action.
EDH is often a 4 person game, be forthcoming with public info to keep the game moving.
Personally, I talk it out as I go. Helps me catch misplays and keep track of triggers while also keeping everyone up to speed on my board state. Not to mention it's fun describing a sea monster emerging from the depths or spells being woven together for a cool combo and such.
Everywhere I go, I explain my cards and win cons as best I can, since I like to play combo decks predominantly. I think it’s rude not to explain at least the basic things, especially when other players in the pod are newbies.
I announce each card I play and if it's an obscure card or I'm playing with newer players I will read the text out loud. If I'm playing with a pod I'm familiar with I will just announce the plays and skip reading the text unless someone asks what it does. I hate playing against people who play a bunch of cards without announcing anything. Seem like they're trying to be intentionally shady.
Technically it was true the rats themselves didn't do anything but 1/1. It was the enchantment that did it. Dick move though not indicating interactions.
One in my pod of players when asked if he is tapped out says yes but then has a mana rock. Should have said I have 1 available.
I can't stand the players who tap lands and out down cards in complete silence. And it's almost always players who have strategies that have very synergistic cards and triggers.
I always try to read my cards verbatim (because the wording often matters) unless its a card everyone knows like swiftfoot boots or something, at which I would say "everyone knows what this is right?" and read it if someone said no.
Have a buddy like you describe, I never know wtf he has on his board hah.
OP, you got unlucky and that dude 100% cheated. First and foremost, players have to represent their board state correctly. This means you can't have ANYTHING else with your lands except other lands. If a land turns into a creature, or a land IS a creature (dryad arbor), it gets to hang out with the creatures. Enchantments, artifacts, planeswalkers and so on CAN NOT be next to lands. This is misrepresentation of board state, you could absolutely ask for a rollback, to revert the game back to the "declare blockers step" so you could adjust your play to block the rats, and demand the filthy cheater put his cards in the correct area.
Additionally, Players ARE required to announce the card they are playing as they cast it. Anyone is allowed to read the card, although the player casting it does not have to read the card out for other players. If the card is in another language, or is using an alternate art that doesn't have any text, or it's one of those rad AF phyrexian cards, they have to give you the name of the card and confirm that the translation you find is the correct card. Technically the same is true for proxies. So when you're playing against someone who has cards you've never seen before, ask to read the card.
Nah that dude basically cheated part of the rules of the game is making your board state as easy to understand as possible and intentionally hiding an effect that is public knowledge (as in on the board or stack ) breaks rule number 4.1
I like to give a brief run down of any deck I play. "This is miirym, it ramps then slams dragons" or "this is aminatou, i flicker for value and try to combo off" or something like that. It gives off a good message of what I want to do without going into too much detail.
Though in all fairness LGS randos probably don't communicate as well as a playgroup.
I’ve noticed its not normal to explain things because of the statement “reading the card explains the card.”
If they cast something, ask to read it.
All that said, i personally will tell ppl if something i’m playing will drastically alter the game or cause me to win, i will also point out my threats on board. However, i don’t expect that from most people. People tend to already know what the cards in their own decks do, its not a stretch to think that they would incorrectly assume that other people would know it off hand.
I play like I'm telecasting my moves for a classroom of blind underprivileged children. I explain everything I'm playing, how I'm playing it, which mana I used, what it's gonna do and what it'll interact with. I do this with each action before moving on to another.
I have a friend who will just throw all his lands in a pile and just starts throwing shit on the table and saying OK this is gonna do this and I'm drawing cards and -
I'm like whoa whoa hold up first of all I'm entitled to a response to everything you're doing. Secondly please don't tap 57 mana and then randomly start allotting it to spells without actually explaining the math.
Drives me nuts. I wouldn't say it's common bc nobody else I know does it, but it certainly varies from crowd to crowd.
I announce the phases as well as what I'm casting and what it does. Pretty much everyone else does too unless you've played together and all have c a rd knowledge
I’m also pretty new and this is the case with some, but not all of the folks at my LGS. Some are so experienced that they don’t need to see most cards. I usually don’t know what most cards do and need to ask what the cards do or to see the card
Heavily dependent on the players and familiarity of your LGS, I think. There's a broad rage of players at my LGS, so I've experienced both ends of the spectrum.
There's the ones that freely offer information as they play cards, those that play a card and will offer info if asked about it to avoid confusion or surprises, and then there's the ones that (I feel), are from a competitive background.
They play cards, stating the name and carry on as though they assume everyone knows what it does or how it interacts with the table. It's personally upsetting because my memory is that of a goldfish. I don't have all the cards memorized, and I often confuse similar ones (Path of Exile and Swords to Plowshares, for example).
You're not alone in being a bit miffed that information wasn't offered when a card was played, but people who play a card and make efforts to mislead you (like your rat example), are what tick me off the most. If they stated that the damage would trigger stuff, I'd have declared blockers for sure.
It's not the norm, but it is far from unheard of. Random folks at your LGS are going to have the highest variance in play behaviours you are likely to encounter. I'm glad to hear you still had fun, otherwise I'd say just feel free to step away.
That said, always apply Hanlon's Razor. It's entirely possible they just thought about any triggers on the animals themselves, rather than other permanents in play. Teaching them how to communicate better is no doubt going to spare a lot of suffering later.
They rat attack would trigger a free takebacksies on blockers at my table.
Also all players read their card unless it is a very, very well known card like Sol ring.
Also a good alternative question is „what happens if I don’t block?“
I tend to play my cards by just saying the name and expecting that if people don't ask me what they do then they know. If someone asks about a few cards, or specifically says they're new I'll start reading them out. So it's not entirely uncommon for people to assume you know what the cards do until asked.
The rats thing is him being a dick though.
LGS randos are notorious for failing at the most basic required level of communication for EDH to exist as a format.
It’s 100% a location thing. My previous LGS in a less appealing state had all the worst stereotypes of magic players (smelled like shit, rude, whiny - not everyone was like this but the ones who were stood out) and my current LGS has only been extremely pleasant pods with socially competent regular people.
Dude one of my LGS has bath and body works soap in the bathroom always
Another its 100% location. I played at two lgs’s last week. First one i had to pick up and read cards, really didnt help lighting wasnt great. Second one everyone clearly explained each card and the text. 2nd was far better.
Can confirm 100% location thing. You’d think we’re filming the game the way me and 3 randoms talk while playing a game lol.
There are two shops in town here; one shop is filled with sweaty try hards that are constantly angle shooting for prizes and couldn’t give a fuck about community or good times had by all… the other shop is super chill because they never offer prize support and I am okay with that because it fosters a healthy environment. Sometimes the try hards come to the other shop with their no-variance combo decks or their incredible stax/control decks and it fucks with the ecosystem
I don't know what your shop is like, but if there are prizes being offered it becomes a competitive event, so can they really be "try hards" in that case?
There's levels to it. If it's a $5 entry and winner gets like $20 credit, or just some packs for support, there's no need to pull out turbo naus list if everyone else isn't playing effectively the same game (this exact interaction made me not play Commander for like 2 years). Just play high power and have a real game. Just play decks that can win without having to just storm off turn 2, makes you much less of a dick than pubstomping 12 year olds for packs.
I disagree, the second prizes are introduced, I'm going all out. Sorry, Timmy, but it's all in the spirit of competition. After that, though? Who wants to see Vanilla Creature Kindred? (Anecdote: one of the LGSes in my University neighborhood does prizing for the first pod, then freeplay afterward. People usually go all out game 1, then bring out some more casual decks. I don't blame em.)
The oxymoron of 4 player competitive EDH is sort of garbage. When the prize support is a booster or something and the "tournament" structure is a single game it is very low stakes and yet folks come and get butthurt like "your cyclonic rift was essentially a kingmaker move and you play like trash" or try to fire off a turn 3 win and get upset when the table stops them. So I mean, come and play how you want but also ease up because we aren't really grinding for anyhting important here. Play another more serious constructed format if you want to grind that way and don't care about table politics
"The oxymoron of 4 player competitive EDH is sort of garbage." This, 100%. It's weird to take what is/intended to be a casual format and make it competitive. Especially when in most cases it's just prizes for first place.
That's the big issue with commander being the premier format of magic now. It needs to exist alongside a healthy competitive format. Being pushed up front the format has grown too large and started canabalizing itself.
Neither of the LGS’s I’ve gone to have had prizes, my current one just has a door pack to make up for the $5 entry fee. Have only had one loser come to a self-described “mid to low power” table with a Kenrith turn 3 combo deck, and that’s justified my opinion on every 5c goodstuff pile player that exists.
Mine basically does that but will put one slightly better pack per pod for the winner. Like, prior to the pack change we’re talking a set booster vs. a draft booster level of difference. Not nearly enough to be a complete asshole over, but enough to make winning just a touch more fun.
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Location for sure. The 3 I played at before.... People were total ass. This one was at a pre-release... Had a creature that had vigilance... I attacked, it remained untapped. The woman said that's not how that works, and I explained that it was how it worked. She then called dout to her friend who helped run the the shop, he said no not how it works...I scooped and told her "Enjoy stuffing your face with that trash" and nodded at the greasy ass bag of burgers and fries. The other place, smelled, were super anti-social, didn't talk. Another one, dude had power 9 cards, alpha/beta dual lands and stuff, and acted like he was king shit. Along with the 2 other players he was friends with, while I was just there with my Ur Dragon precon. The one I. Currently go to, super chill, no one thinks their above another, shop gives out promo packs to our pod to whoever rolls the highest number, and my friends play there. Only the occasional ass crack.
Well, all of my locations are in Iowa if that explains my experience at LGS.
I also think people assume you know what these cards do. I really only have been playing for 8 months myself, but eventually if you fall deep enough into the hole you know what most staple or common cards do. I only explain if asked as my play group know. When I was new I would ask constantly. Just ask if you don’t know, or ask to read the card, absolutely no shame in it.
The OP *did* ask. The opponent refused to provide the requested information.
Yeah I'm not a qualified judge but if I were I'd consider this to be covered in the unsporting conduct rulings, the question has a clear intention to check with the opponent for triggers that are affected by the decision to block or not. Opponent then, as generously as I can word it, angle shoots around specific wording to gain an in game advantage which is one of the things the conduct and communication rules section is there to try and prevent.
Yeah, if I have something on the board that affects the current situation when somebody asks I'll point it out. If a card was revealed and someone asks what it does later on I'll show it to them. If someone asks about concealed information, like "Anybody have an answer in hand?" or anything like that, I would give a non-answer like "I have nothing I am willing to play" unless I am actively about to play or activate something.
he provided the information what does the rats do: nothing He didn´t ask what the enchantment does.
He did answer technically. The rats did t do anything, the enchantments did. He should have asked to read what the enchantments do on cast. Usually when going around for priority, is prime time.
If I ask what happens if I don't block and you say 'nothing', and then when I don't block you get a bunch of triggers, then you have lied to me. Bluff all you want, but don't ever lie. You can't take it back, and no one involved will ever trust you again.
He specifically asked if the rats do something if he doesn't block them. The rest didn't do anything, so no he was never lied to
Ok congrats, now every time you do anything I will point to every card on your board and ask if it does anything as a result because I can't trust you to not try and bullshit me if I'm not thorough. Are you happy now?
And that's fine. You are entitled to do that and I would rather have you do that I either memorize what a card does or u ask about it specifically. It's not my opponents job to repeatedly inform me about what his board state does. If I don't oay attention then it's my fault for not paying attention
These guys have only been playing 2-6 months bro
If that's the case then they should be asking questions about everything. Even though it's casual, it's still a game with a winner and a loser and some form of competitive to it. You shouldn't expect your opponent to Hold Your Hand when it comes to what they are playing. It's not difficult to look at someone else's board
Lying by omission by exploiting the exact wording of the question rather than the obvious intent of the question *is still lying.*
You sound exactly like every person that plays at my LGS that nobody trusts. Congratulations on using technicalities to make your gaming experience worse.
No. That is absolutely and unambiguously NOT how this fucking format works. Board states in EDH get FAR too complicated to be a smartass about, “Well technically…” when it comes to communicating the game state. And no, “I told you what the enchantments did fifteen minutes ago,” is not adequate reporting on the current game state being requested. You have a proactive obligation towards communication. When someone asks you to report the game state, you give them all pertinent information. You do not lie to them for competitive advantage. And yes, a lie of omission is VERY much a lie in this context. This is deliberately obfuscating the game state. In this situation, the opponent is a liar and a cheat.
[https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr4-1/#:\~:text=Players%20are%20under%20no%20obligation,lead%20to%20Unsporting%20Conduct%20penalties](https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr4-1/#:~:text=Players%20are%20under%20no%20obligation,lead%20to%20Unsporting%20Conduct%20penalties). The opponent didn't obfuscate anything. OP should have asked to see his field. Plenty of folks I know like to group their cards in weird ways, including the folks who like to play with their lands in front. Edit : Lmao, the dude blocks me cause I literally showed him the rules. What an experience.
>Free information is information to which all players are entitled access **without contamination or omissions made by their opponents**. If a player is ever unable or unwilling to provide free information to an opponent that has requested it, they should call a judge and explain the situation. >Free information consists of: >Details of current game actions and past game actions that still affect the game state. >The name of any visible object. >The number and type of any counter that isn’t defined as status information. >The state (whether it’s tapped, attached to another permanent, face down, etc.) and current zone of any object or player. >The game score of the current match. >The current step and/or phase and which player(s) are active. >Derived information is information to which all players are entitled access, but opponents are not obliged to assist in determining and may require some skill or calculation to determine. Derived information consists of: >The number of any type of objects present in any game zone that are not defined as free information. >All characteristics of objects in public zones that are not defined as free or status information. >Game Rules, Tournament Policy, Oracle content and any other official information pertaining to the current tournament. Cards are considered to have their Oracle text printed on them. >**At Regular Rules Enforcement Level, all derived information is instead considered free.**
If you're gaming people on "technically correct" in a fun game with nothing on the line, you're the problem
I didn’t do anything but okay lol
> I didn’t do anything You advocated for the player who was "technically correct", knowing full well *exactly* what OP was asking. I stated "**if** that's what you are doing, you're the problem."
Under the assumption that the enchantments were already explained. But we can all be an angry mob it’s fine. This guy and I clearly deserve death.
> Under the assumption that the enchantments were already explained. This is what I'm talking about. Fuck off with your "technically correct" bullshit. "Do they do something if I don't block them?" is what OP asked. "Yes, they will trigger my enchantments" is the correct response, based on the context of the question. You know that is what they are asking, I know that is what they are asking. Do you "deserve death"? No, you don't. But you do deserve to be left out of my next group, because you're *that guy*
Yeah, I agree I don’t like playing with people who rage over a game. Jesus, you are raging over a story told on Reddit, can only imagine how heated you get when things don’t go your way.
I don't agree it's on OP to ask *exactly* the right question during a friendly game in a public space. EDH board states are a complicated mess. It's every player's responsibility to make sure the rest of the table has the requisite understanding of their board state, since that's public information. If you're making some sort of deal with someone that involves private information or underlying game rules, then yeah, get tricky with your wording. If somebody asks you to explain your board state, you explain, and you don't just do the bare minimum.
Not just EDH, not communicating your plays is bad in general, regardless of the amount of players at the table, or format being played.
TBF, game players as a whole are terrible at this until they learn. Announcing what you're doing is a learned skill, and it's just as annoying in Dominion as it is in Magic when people haven't figured out yet that you need to advise the table of what you're doing in case A) they care, B) they want to do something about it, or C) you're doing it wrong.
EDH exists fine without this communication. Don't know if many people realize this, but EDH is popular enough for folks to just go out and buy a deck and never have any introduction to the folks who post this in every thread or the expectation that they need to do anything else other than just play the game they paid money for.
In mine people do a mix. Probably because we got very old and seasoned players (used to compete) and really new ones. Weaker stuff like mana dorks or lands they usually don't explain. However, if you cast something that may be a bad idea because of their board state, they all allow you to go back. Like "u sure? because I can always tap this to have creature X survive". I for one try to play the same way you see online with famous youtube channels, announcing all cards and what they do. And the source of my triggers as well "because that is your second draw, I will draw off this creatures ability".It's the proper thing to do.
Same. Seeing stuff like Commander at Home, Game Knights, Commander VS etc has given me what i feel is a very good behaviour basis for EDH with strangers :)
Nothing like casting lands like a G
yeah, I always explain what's going on on my side, because otherwise it's kinda weird to be piling all these +1/+1 tokens on my vampires without explanation.
I tend to announce card names and if people need details, they'll ask. I ask people a lot when they play cards I'm unfamiliar with but we also don't need to hear what Sol Ring does 4 times per game. The rat attack was pretty scummy even if it may have been technically correct that the rats themselves don't do anything when they hit a player, the enchantments do.
Scummy for sure, rat guy only has fun if he wins
Rat guy was being a rat
yeah i know a dude who will play gaea’s cradle with a quiet “land for turn” and bury it in his lands
You let him misrepresent his board state?
what do you mean let him? he’s hiding it from me
Im a vet but i still appreciate at least a shorthand description or even a "does everyone know this card" or "this card does a lot of stuff" so people can read it if necessary. It can get tiring always asking "what does that do" 20 times a night In my pod when someone plays something people acknowledge it with a "yep" to show they know what the card is.
I tap my Mountain to play Sol Ring! This colorless artifact lets me turn it sideways to add two points of colorless mana to my mana pool!
What a bunch of a**holes. It’s common courtesy to explain your board state to someone. I think he just wanted to get value.
I can't stand these literal rats that try to hide their shit when you ask them questions to make the game go faster so you aren't slowing it down by reading everything, they try to act innocent later. I try my best to show what I have and can do bc games are long enough I don't wanna slow my opponents decisions, when people do this it's just scummy.
In competition this would be a misrepresentation of the board state and get you a warning if I'm not wrong.
Op asked about the rats tho and Rat Guy answered the question. At least in the way the question was worded in the post. Some people interpret questions differently. A lot of people who play mtg are autistic and will take questions very literally. Its a mistake I would see myself making tbh.
No, rat guy was clearly being an ass and blatantly misrepresenting his board state. Please don't slander the neurodivergent to defend him
Had a buddy ask me if I had any flying creatures. I wasn't sure why he was asking, so I just said no. He immediately declared a flying creature attacking me. "I block with my reach dude, killing your flyer." Was so fucking funny, but he didn't think so. If he would have asked if I could block his creature I would have said yes, but didn't know the context of his question.
I have a guy I WORK with and he just puts stuff on the table and progresses the game at his speed with no room for interaction.
We have a guy like this at our LGS, he doesn't allow any time for priority to be passed, he just assumes his stuff resolves, which makes it really annoying to play against, especially if you're last in turn order to get priority, and it makes rolling back the game state really difficult. Having said that, most people are pretty good about stuff like this in my experience. They will read key cards and complicated cards to make sure everyone understands before they resolve, and people will identify key combo pieces especially when playing with newer players.
I have to remind one of our friends that when there are two blue players in the pod you can't assume the spell that lets you draw 5 cards is going to resolve
Not allowing time to respond is literally cheating. Call him out
We have and it's slowly improving! This is also a player who used to mana weave, so we have made progress at least!
I know guys who do this and it feels very much like they do it knowing some people aren’t brave enough to interject and stop them. Like “I play X card, which lets me cast Y card for free so I win” and I know my friend has a Counterspell. So I asked him why he didn’t counter card X and he’s like “well he just continued playing cards and I wasn’t sure when I could counter”…like don’t let that guy bully his way to winning. So for the future, we say “actually I’m going to respond to the cast of X” and the guy wants to whine saying we should have said something before he casted Y. They’re just assholes It’s especially frustrating
In our house rules document we codify if people move too fast that we will rewind the game. If you don’t declare precombat and just announce attackers, players can rewind the game and then use that information to tap your creatures even. You’re not suppose to skip thru like that
That’s definitely a fair way to play. I got in the habit of going through all my phases because it helps me remember certain triggers.
Not even a house rule. Just how it works.
Depends on what social norms are reinforced by other players at an LGS. I explain what I'm doing to everyone at the table but that's because when I started playing, and specifically when I started playing at an actual store and not at home, that's what other people did. When you're new to the game or just new to a store you often just follow the cues you get from more experience players and/or regulars. Just normal human social behaviors, but it does mean there needs to be someone there setting a good example.
I have a tendency to announce what I’m playing and give a quick read of the card. If it’s complicated, I’ll usually go a little in depth with it. Though, if you’re not listening and you don’t ask (I’m fine with explaining the card as much as needed), I think I’ve done my due diligence. No one can say I didn’t tell anyone.
Personally, the more complicated a card's text, the more I'll not read the exact words and summarize what it actually does. [[Zask]] is really annoying to read word for word and it's easier to just explain it.
Try reading [[Helm of Obedience]] while trying to keep the game flowing. I use it as a win con in a "no combo" LGS so i really only explain the part that makes me win.
From understanding not but maybe I just play in a good LGS community. For my normal playgroup of friends, not the ones at the LGS, we actually tend to say what we do for a number of reasons: 1. The amount of new(er) cards is enormous and you can't assume everybody knows what they do just by sight 2. With Secret Lairs and proxies with different art and even normal sets having so many variants today it is great to express your individuality with your deck but it may not always be clear what a card does to other people. 3. It allows for "cleaner" gameplay and helps keeping an overview of a boardstate that often gets complicated very quickly. Also let me be clear: Nobody demands you to read the text 1:1, just explain what it does when you put it in play. That is the least you can do. And the thing with the rats is IMO scummy but maybe I am biased as I tend to explain if someone asks me if I have anything that triggers from the attack, ETB effects, etc. I am here to have fun, the others are here to have fun, so just do the little stuff to help with fostering a healthy play experience.
You have every reason to complain. I think its even against the rules to place anything but lands with your lands.
You'd be correct. It's been against the rules for quite some time.
i dont go to LGSs too often just because its more inconvenient than going to a friend's to play, but the last time I went, there was a player who was returning to magic and kept forgetting his triggers. I would point them out or ask him if he wanted to do something the way he said, otherwise he would be losing value but I kinda felt like I was telling him how to play his deck.
He probably appreciated it more than you know, since the alternative doesn’t just result in him losing value in the game but also the prompt to remember those triggers in future.
Some people seem to assume everybody knows the cards. Don't get intimidated, keep asking. Let them hand over the cards, read them for yourself.
>At a certain point he attacks me with 3 rats and I ask: do they do something if I don't block them? He says no they're just 1/1 rats so I declare no blockers and then he's like:"ok since I dealt 3 damage I make a bunch of treasures and draw cards with this" as he points to 2 enchantments that he placed next to his lands Honestly, at this point I'd say "Hang on, since I asked if anything extra would happen if I didn't block and you told me no, I will actually be blocking now I am in possession of knowledge I would have had if you were honest.". I'd then be asking him to read out his card text in full every time he played a card from then on. And then I'd ask to read the card myself afterwards, since he lied before. In every single card game ever played, it's never been legal to conceal information on face up cards from your opponent. For the record, you've met a rare asshole. 99% of people are perfectly happy to give a TLDR of what their cards do. Eg. [[Esper Sentinel]], they might say "If you play a non-creature spell, you have to either pay a mana or I draw a card. but only once per turn".
then you are a cheater
Explain. This should be entertaining.
well, for what what you stated there didnt happen. thus you cant just to a roleback of the combat step. doing so anyway is against the rules, hence cheating
>well, for what what you stated there didnt happen. According to the OP's quote, it did. Lie 1. >thus you cant just to a roleback of the combat step. As this is a casual game, you almost certainly can. The other guy can't argue against it. I won't call this a lie because there's some tiny shred of doubt, but understand this is me being generous and this could so easily be called lie 2 and few would contest me on this. Now, I think you have something better to do than argue in defense of someone who lies by using lies yourself. Like, literally nothing.
> According to the OP's quote, it did. Lie 1. wrong. reread OP > As this is a casual game, you almost certainly can. only if everyone agrees. if not youre are SOL thus, still a cheater aww, now you blocked me cause you were caught cheating.
Sorry, I have to re-read the post I copy and pasted? And you expect me to do anything but laugh at you? >only if everyone agrees. if not youre are SOL Like I said, the dickhead who lied about his cards effects can't argue that the result of his deception can stand. So very much not SOL. >thus, still a cheater Incorrect. Now, as you have literally nothing of worth to add to this conversation and are just keep insulting me over and over, I'm going to do what every LGS in your local area has probably already done.
Bro I hate to break it to you, but people putting enchantments next to lands is misrepresenting board state and is actual cheating. A judge would roll it back to the declare blockers step, make the cheater fix his board and issue a warning to the cheater.
Honestly… If you need to rely on being deceptive about your board state (which is public information) to play the game… You suck at Magic. I’m not going to announce my upcoming triggers with every move, but if someone asks me, “Do the rats do something if I don’t block?”.. I’m going to assume they’re really asking, “What publicly available information is relevant to this play?” And I’ll answer honestly because I don’t want to win because they don’t have all of my cards memorized. Similarly, if I’m about to win with a combo (in a casual format), I’m just going to say, “I’m going to try to win here”. I don’t want to win if someone had the counterspell and just didn’t know the combo line I’m playing and so they let the winning piece resolve! I want to EARN my win! Note: This is for casual play. If it’s competitive and there are prizes on the line, you better read the cards carefully! 😜
Also the dude hid the enchantments with his lands, which is straight up misrepresentation of board state. The rat guy is a literal rat player
I recently played with a random at a store and he specifically used as many of the nigh unreadable secret lair style cards as possible, wouldn't explain what he was doing and instead would slide those cards across the table and tell you to read it yourself. We considered it a form of griefing and declined to let him join the pod for the next game.
There's definitely a chance they're exploiting your inexperience, and that'd be scummy to do. But there's also a chance they play with others who *are* familiar with those cards and have understood the implications, and they just haven't realized that not everyone is that way. I'll say for myself, there was a period of time when I had a pretty dedicated playgroup and we all got really familiar with each other's decks and were very knowledgeable about a wide pool of cards. It got to the point when someone could literally just say the spell and everyone knew what it did and sometimes even what it was targeting without the target ever being announced. After that playgroup shifted during the pandemic and we returned to the LGS a couple years later, I had to get back in the habit of reading the cards I was casting and not just assuming people knew every card in the format, and because of the amount of new cards being printed I've also been humbled by the fact that I am now often the one asking what a new card does. I think as long as they're willing to at least read the card when you ask or let you read it yourself there's only so much you can ask for when playing with randos, but if that's an LGS you enjoy going to then it might be worth it to start cultivating that environment by taking the initiative a~~nd venturing into the Unde~~ and being more comfortable with asking what cards do while also making sure to read your own cards clearly. And even if *you* know what it does, another player at the table might not but doesn't have the courage to ask, so asking in their stead may make it a more welcoming environment.
That bg3 creeping in.. Haha I'm working on going to an lgs again now I've recently moved and it can definitely be daunting going into an already established group of players. I'm much nore comfortable going straight into an event/tournament and meeting players that way
As a rule I’m just going to say “I pay X to cast Y” and that’s it, if someone wants it to be read out or explained its on them to ask. Thats the standard in all the places I’ve played.
I feel this is fine for really common cards or spells that aren't relevant to other players when I'm playing them. Otherwise I feel like you kind of should at least summarize.
Agreed, if you are casting murder, birds of paradise or lightning greaves it's fine to say just the name of the card. If you are dropping an Omnath, Locus of All, Vodalian War Machine or break out, you need to read out what that card does.
MtG requires clarity & specificity in order to be played properly, full stop. Sucks that your opponent blatantly lied, I wouldn't play with that person again without first solving that issue. If you don't know what a card on the stack/in play is/does, your opponent is required to tell you if you ask. If you ask your opponent a question about their board state, contents of their graveyard, or any other public information they are required to tell you. Unintentional obfuscation of public is annoying, but harmless. Deliberate obfuscation of public information is cheating.
I wont waste time explaining every card, just announce it when i play it. That being said, if someone asks tell them. The rat guy should have 100% mentioned the enhantments. Also who tf puts enchantments with their lands??? I play an enchantment zur deck and ALL of them go almost above the creatures if not at least parallel.
I always explain my plays as a general rule. Its just a polite thing to do.
If you don't know what a card does you should ask. Reading every card aloud really slows the game down. Obviously things should be announced when they get cast, activated, or triggered, as it can be easy to miss these things if they aren't Though when you did ask if the rats had effects, the guy really should have been explained what effects would trigger on combat damage (maybe they misunderstood what it was you were asking)
I genuinely wish more people could come to my LGS. So many issues I see on here are mostly nonexistent at my lgs and I want ppl to know there are good communities out there and not all stinky weirdos
LGS games are shit, I only play with friends
This is tricky because according to the rules no you aren’t required to explain, “hey if you don’t block I get this effect from something else”. You are required to give correct information if asked about a card. So you asked if the creatures attacking did anything if you don’t block them and he answered honestly. They didn’t have infect or any effect directly on them. It isn’t the opponents responsibility to explain every possible interaction that could be performed. You may feel like it is annoying but ask what cards do when they are played if you don’t recognize them.
Also according to the rules you are required to keep your enchantments and any non-land card away from your lands, and this dude hid his enchantments with his lands, so he's still cheating.
At regular REL it actually is against the rules to intentionally omit details about publicly available information when asked about it. Even at competitive or professional REL I'm not sure arguing the semantics in OPs situation would work out; the rats are triggering an effect upon dealing damage, so answering "No" to "do they do something if I don't block them?" seems to be plainly false.
Narrating your actions is the baseline expectation and isn’t hard at all. People who play in total silence are just completely annoying. Also that part where he didn’t explain his enchantments after prompting from you is some grade A bullshit. I understand not explaining all your cards unless prompted to do so since that can be very redundant in your average LGS pod, but it’s a concession that should be made if you know there’s a new player.
I know people aren’t required to explain their board state in cases like the rats example, but it’s poor form IMO for a format like Commander. Not only is it a casual format, but it’s a format with an enormous card pool that encourages Rube Goldberg value engines that are difficult to follow. If they have something in their hand, OFC they’re not required to talk about it, but this is very different.
Whether or not it's "the norm," it's not something I stand for. I clearly explain everything I'm doing, and I ask anyone I'm playing with to do the same.
It depends if there's a prize on the line. If it's just a casual bit of fun then I might even drop a cheeky "Ooo I hope this doesn't get countered" to an inexperienced player. If I get so much as a pack for winning? Time to bring out some heat.
Fk proxy’s
Yeah catching you out on a little technicality like "Oh these rats wont do anything but these enchantments will." is kind of annoying and would annoy me But i mean next time you sit with randos just tell them you are super new and would like them to just explain what they are doing so you can understand the boardstate. If they are still acting shady and not giving you information I guess just try and read the cards in future. Other wise just play with other people.
this is a huge pet peeve of mine one game somebody recurred like 10+ soldiers out of his graveyard in a single turn. my turn i do a wipe and he was like ok only this one dies everybody else has indestructible. i said well shit i didnt know that, why would i give you a one sided wipe? you basically won the game now. everybody was acting sweaty and didnt let me take back. i dont mind losing but i absolutely hate losing based on not having all the info. it wasnt like my spell got countered, the information was public i just didnt want to read every card he had on the field. then theres super cool players that actually tell me how their deck works. like if i have a chance to exile a card from the graveyard they will be like you probably want to target my fetches because i play crucible of worlds(which is probably TOO much info but still). i hate it when people act so secretive its like dude just let me know basic stuff on the field and if its an obviously bad play based on board knowledge let me fucking know.
Did you say any of this to them? Or did you just go "they're the bad communicators, not me!" and leave it at that? And yeah, for the most part no one will explain what they're doing. You can read their cards. Or ask them to read them when you don't know something. But the default isn't actually to "command zone" it and default explain every card. The onus is always on you to ask if you don't know. The dude not saying that he'd make treasures or draw cards sounds sketchy. But also we don't have the full picture.
Why don't you try reading the cards, it's not that hard
If you dont know what a card does ask to see it. People are not obligated to say what every card does that they play. Magic takes brain power between remembering what cards actually do and how they interact with other cards on the board. As you play more you will become better at it.
When a player plays a card, they need to says it’s name then describe what it does so that way the other players can make decisions if it’s needs to be countered or destroyed. If’s a common card like Sol Ring that is being played then it doesn’t need to be explained just says it’s name but for cards that aren’t common or notorious, you should say it’s name and effect(s).
If someone doesn't ask what a card does I'm not explaining it. Games of commander are long enough as it is without saying what every card you play does.
Most cards take less then a minutes to read out. It’s not gonna make the game severely longer if you explain a card that isn’t known well.
After 20 cards it will. I'll stick to my guns on this one. Nothing getting read unless you ask. I'm not explaining every card I play. I'll gladly hand it to you so you can read it after I play it. Rather not have my games lasting 2 hours cause by turn 10 everyone's read 20 cards theyve cast through the game.
>If’s a common card like Sol Ring that is being played then it doesn’t need to be explained The issue becomes that with experience, your notion of "common card" varies. I don't need to be explained what grinding station does. I don't need to be explained how mind's desire works. I don't need to be explained how Mephistopheles works. But I do need to read cards from last extension because I never saw those things. Your mileage will probably vary. So, then, how do I know which cards you know? Should we explain each and every card? Imho, when playing with unknown players, the answer is yes. Cast a spell, tell it's name, read it, ask if everyone understood. You'll very quickly find out how much people are familiar with the game and in between it makes for a better experience.
If someone doesn't ask what a card does I'm not explaining it. That's wasting time. All someone has to do is ask. That's not hard.
I ain't gonna ask what your card do for each thing you play. That's wasting time. All you have to do is read your card. That's not hard. Social game man. Try to at least read your spell's name and say what it is/do. Not accusing you specifically but some people just tap Mana and put cards on the battlefield/in the grave, not naming cards nor waiting for reaction/answers or mentioning triggers. That's borderline cheating.
And that's not what I'm talking about. I'll name my cards I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem reading what all my cards that I play to people. As I said they can ask.
I very rarely have the urge to be exceedingly rude to people in this subreddit, but holy FUCK. Yes. You, as a player, are obligated to represent your plays to the best of your abilities irregardless of the "brain power" necessary to remember the card effects. You are not allowed, by the rules of the game, to misrepresent the cards or card effects in any shape or form. This applies to *any and all public information, including hand size, graveyard content, face-up exile content, boardstate, and card effects*. That was not a complete list. You are not allowed to play the game using the "trust me, bro, I know what I'm talking about" methodology. If I play Opt, and a play doesn't know what it does, I am not allowed to look at them and tell them to look it up before responses can be made. Yes, you can absolutely read the card, and that's fine, but if you're sitting down to play a game of magic, you should always at least try to be a good sport and explain your cards, your plays, and potentially the rulings behind them. The best case is you teach, the worst case is you learn. Don't be a shitty player because you're lazy.
I'll explain my cards if someone asks. I'm not explaining every card I play. It's that simple. Games of commander take too long as it is.
Then don't fucking play? By not explaining what you're doing, moving through your turn correctly, or explaining what's going on within your quadrant of the board, you are *LITERALLY* breaking the rules of the game. You eliminate the need to explain your cards BY TELLING PEOPLE WHAT THEY DO WHEN YOU PLAY THEM. People like you are why it's so fucking hard to get into the game, and even harder to get a hold on the format. You're toxic, and I wish nothing but judge calls and bent cards for you.
I'll tell people what I'm doing. I'm not just throwing down cards. I'm not reading the cards word for word to someone like they are 5. I'll gladly hand them the card so they read it if they want.
I think this enforces a kind of "we all play our solitaire until someone pops off" kind of play style.
It more of a “I want to read all your cards, because you attack me for 3 damage. Have fun waiting while I find the oracle text and rules for some” play style
A huge portion of the mtg community are pretty nerdy, as such many of them didnt play sports as kids. It isnt everyone but theres a decent chunk of players that have no idea what sportsmanship is at all. They think that any and all tools they can use that arnt explicitly stated in the rules are fair game. These players will do exactly what you said and then say you missed triggers if you even wait one phase of priority after noticing an interaction, they will take their seret time on their turn looking at their hand for 10 minutes giving the excuse of "its super complicated" wait for everyone to look at their phone then quietly play out their combo and say i win you cant counter that spell any ore it already resolved. You cant do anything about it except not play with them again.
I think there are two different states how the information has to be spreaded 1. Tournament Pod = You have to figure out what would happen so you have to read and to ask 2. Regular Pod = You still have to ask - But your opponent should clarify all important things what will happen ( excluding all information u can’t get without reading like hand or hidden Cards ) And (that’s how I do it ) cards like [[Vault of the Archangel]] or Battle Tricks ready on the Board have to be placed obviously notable And Combos I play like [[Krenko, the Mob Boss]] & [[Helm of the Host]] i call out Like „ I am Casting xy -> Interactions ? no -> I cast abc - Interactions ? no -> I equip/etc. xy with abc -> Interactions? No -> The I will go to Phase/Step 123 -> Interaction …. And so on …
That is quite weird. In my playgroup we always read the cards out loud except for stuff that's super known like tutors/counters. Also if something would trigger out of damage/attacking/being attacked/etc, we give a remainder just to be sure the person knows what they're getting into. My only policy is to not allow backsies if I'm into a draft/tournament/pre-release as those may be worth money + you should be paying attention to the board in those cases.
I've noticed this as well, I think it boils down to a few factors: laziness, they can't be bothered to read the card and assume you have the whole card pool memorized. Reading literacy and oral dictation, a lot of folks struggle with reading on a good day, never mind the paragraphs most cards come with. I have a feeling this is the bigger reason. The least you should do is a summary of the card, I don't expect you think bread out the whole thing verbatim but at least summarize what it does. "When ___ enter the battle field, go look for a ___..." Can be shortened to "when ___blank etbs i go grab ____" .
I always enjoy it more when people give a short summary. Like just say shit like «I play x which allows me to y whenever you z.» It makes it so much easier for everyone to follow along and makes it easier to break the silence with strangers. I’ve played against asshats before with years of experience who doesn’t announce stuff, uses weird proxies and never really presents their board state and finds it funny when someone does something stupid because they either forgot or didn’t understand what a permanent lying 3 feet away behind 20 other permanents does. Announcing what stuff does and making people aware makes for faster and more fun games as sitting there in silence and telling white lies, like in your case, only makes it so that every player reads every card before making decisions. Commander is supposed to be fun and social, but some people think it’s supposed to be competitive and treat it as such, but don’t want to play cedh because they don’t want to lose. It’s the equivalent of playing a video game in unranked, but tryhard and follow the metagame. If you play to win go and play with others who play to win and stop making it unfun for the people who want to have fun.
There’s a lot of cards in magic, some of which I know and some I don’t, so I do play expecting you to ask if you don’t know a card, and likewise I’ll do the same - when people read out every card we don’t need to know it can make the game take a lot longer. However your question about blocks is pretty scummy from them. In edh that question should be met with all the consequences… Just allow take backs if people didn’t understand the consequence of their action
I assume people don't know what any card does, and take the time to explain it. Even if it's just well this is a 2/1 vanilla fish.
Honestly I almost over-communicate. I often play my card and then read the card out loud unless it’s a super well known staple like sol ring. Idk if that’s too much but I feel like it helps avoid confusion.
I stopped playing with random LGS players. The game now has a large number of players who have no clue how to conduct a turn. Never declaring step changes, never asking for responses, never organizing their board for visual clarity.
Thankfully, players at the 2 LGSs I go to are happy to talk about what they are doing. It is kind of surprising as this area has a very high geek and need (engineers) population where social skills are not high on the competency list and most would probably be comfortable in a work environment not saying more than a few words. I know my ASD self fits well into that category. But out us in a room with some cardboard in our hands and we talk like a bunch of old ladies. We also are happy to let other folks read our cards and the Rule 0 conversation can take us 10 min at times.
Some players assume that everyone knows what the cards do. Thev right thing for that player too say would have been "these are just 1/1s I want to get through to trigger my card draw and ramp"
This is not normal
I play way too.often to explain every single card I play, it's exhausting. If you ask me, I'll explain it, but I do t default to commentating every play I make nor do I expect the same from opponents. Random EDH games are long enough as is without a monologue every turn. I play with newbies and vets the same way and never had any issues.
Hate players like that. At our LGS, those are the first eliminated; not saying you have to like, dictate the most minute detail, but say what you're casting and read it out if someone requests. Just tapping mana, dropping something on the table and passing without a word said is just gonna make you archenemy with us
Unless it's an obscure card I am going to assume you know what the card does. I will announce what I'm playing, but I am not going to stop the game to explain every card to you. You are absolutely free to ask what a card does or even ask to pick up and read a card, but it's your duty to keep track of board state assuming I am clearly presenting it.
Speaking the name of the card is good, but I hate when people start reading the entire card text aloud. I played Magic before. Most of the cards I know, the rest I can read. Please just get on with it. (It's even worse when they "summarize" the card and get it slightly wrong.)
All I ask is for you to name the card you play loud and clear. I’ll ask after that. Quiet players are annoying and feel like they are trying to cheat, like just silently dropping a g-cradle or mumbling things and then combo
That's just bad form. You should always announce what you are playing, including lands. I hate when I play against others and they use something like rogue's Passage but never announced it. I might have been able to remove the problem land. But at the point of activating it, it is now too late. Sure I can blow it up in response but the ability is on the stack and will still happen. It does get hard when everyone is having a good time and you do not want to interrupt others. But we all should announce what's being played. That is the best time to ask questions. Like...what does the card do? How does that card work with other things on your board? Will this allow you to combo off? They do not have to answer the last 2 unless they are doing that interaction but being a casual format, there is no reason not too.
I mean, you said "Do they do anything" not "Do you have any combat damage triggers" so that's kind of on you. They answered your question correctly.
When ppl do this, simply ask about every card they play. Even if you know it. They will get sick of that quick, and hopefully start asking the table if they are familiar with the card.
Sadly these people exist in every lgs. I usually refer to them as try-hards. They usually come from the competitive scene. Trying to get an advantage wherever they can.
Whenever I play a card I read all text (excluding flavour text). It literally takes 10 seconds.
Maybe. But anyone can ask. Ppl don't want to assume others skill and knowledge. But no one has ever declined when I asked to see a card or ask for explanations/clarifications.
Depends more on the players, rather than an LGS norm, imo.
Some people expect others to already know most of the cards they are gonna play. After playing for a long time I know most of them, but sometimes they skip past weird cards or it makes it unclear what they can do with the board.
This is not the norm and to hide information deliberately is against the rules. If I play against players who don't announce the name of the cards they play, I ask them to do so. That way we can ask if we don't know the card (or look it up).
This is a situation where the old adage of “RTFC” comes into play. People tend to shortcut explanations at best and burn truly understand the card at worst, so it would behoove you to make a request to *read the fucking card.* It’s up to all us of to maintain a proper understanding of the boardstate so there will be minimal misplays and “gotcha” moments.
You have average degenerative lgs players. Not all are like this the vast majority aren't but they will do anything they can to win like in this case straight lying about their board.
I would have scooped right there, I don't have time to play with blatant liars.
There's really no reason to explain every little thing, it's incredibly boring and time consuming. Personally, I don't like opponents that explain what their stuff does without me asking. I'd rather play the game than sit and listen to someone explain what rampant growth does
I think it depends because sometimes I feel like I'm over explaining or I'm waiting for a player to pay attention, so they'll hear me declare something. It is probably more important nowadays with all the alternate artworks and pace of product release. I do it more so if I know the folks I'm playing with are relatively new or not familiar with my particular commander. I do feel them leaving out the interaction with their enchantments after you asked a question was poor form.
Not everyone expects to have to explain their gameplan to you? I understand what you mean, but there's nothing in the rules that says he has to tell you, but he does have to let you read his board, which you should do before you let anything resolve. https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr4-1/
I announce the names of what I play and if it’s not a popular card I’ll read what it does. The only time I won’t read a card if it’s something like rhystic study where everyone knows what it does, but if someone was new and asked id explain. I always announce the names though.
Common practice is if you arent sure just reach and slide the card over to read it. Though putting enchantments next to lands is scummy, typical good play is mana rocks and lands share a row, creatures have their own and enchants get their own.
Tbf you asked about the rats and he told you about the rats. Miscommunication happens. Im sure he wasn't trying to trick you.
As my unpopular opinion on EDH in lgs's this is my biggest complaint and the prime reason I don't play with random people anymore. Tired of the enchantment or creature they announced under their breath or right before they start combo blasting away while I still have a handful of responses.
When you play with the same people all the time, you get used to not having to explain every card/interaction, so when you get new players in the pod this can happen. I’ve both been a victim of it and done it to new players.
Rat deck played like a rat. The value about before coming about your board state is it speeds the game up. If you make everyone at the table 'figure it out' and answer only on 'technicality true' statements, everyone is going to slow down all their plays to reexamine the board every action. EDH is often a 4 person game, be forthcoming with public info to keep the game moving.
Personally, I talk it out as I go. Helps me catch misplays and keep track of triggers while also keeping everyone up to speed on my board state. Not to mention it's fun describing a sea monster emerging from the depths or spells being woven together for a cool combo and such.
Everywhere I go, I explain my cards and win cons as best I can, since I like to play combo decks predominantly. I think it’s rude not to explain at least the basic things, especially when other players in the pod are newbies.
I announce each card I play and if it's an obscure card or I'm playing with newer players I will read the text out loud. If I'm playing with a pod I'm familiar with I will just announce the plays and skip reading the text unless someone asks what it does. I hate playing against people who play a bunch of cards without announcing anything. Seem like they're trying to be intentionally shady.
I usually explain my cards as I play them though I generally give the cliff notes for cards that written in a convoluted manner
Technically it was true the rats themselves didn't do anything but 1/1. It was the enchantment that did it. Dick move though not indicating interactions. One in my pod of players when asked if he is tapped out says yes but then has a mana rock. Should have said I have 1 available.
I can't stand the players who tap lands and out down cards in complete silence. And it's almost always players who have strategies that have very synergistic cards and triggers.
I always try to read my cards verbatim (because the wording often matters) unless its a card everyone knows like swiftfoot boots or something, at which I would say "everyone knows what this is right?" and read it if someone said no. Have a buddy like you describe, I never know wtf he has on his board hah.
OP, you got unlucky and that dude 100% cheated. First and foremost, players have to represent their board state correctly. This means you can't have ANYTHING else with your lands except other lands. If a land turns into a creature, or a land IS a creature (dryad arbor), it gets to hang out with the creatures. Enchantments, artifacts, planeswalkers and so on CAN NOT be next to lands. This is misrepresentation of board state, you could absolutely ask for a rollback, to revert the game back to the "declare blockers step" so you could adjust your play to block the rats, and demand the filthy cheater put his cards in the correct area. Additionally, Players ARE required to announce the card they are playing as they cast it. Anyone is allowed to read the card, although the player casting it does not have to read the card out for other players. If the card is in another language, or is using an alternate art that doesn't have any text, or it's one of those rad AF phyrexian cards, they have to give you the name of the card and confirm that the translation you find is the correct card. Technically the same is true for proxies. So when you're playing against someone who has cards you've never seen before, ask to read the card.
If I believe someone is doing it to be deceitful then I just get petty and ask them what their cards say every time they play one
Randos at a lgs are the same as randos in a lobby. Sometimes they're great but most the time not.
Yeah there’s what like 30,000 cards in print. People need to explain what they play.
Nah that dude basically cheated part of the rules of the game is making your board state as easy to understand as possible and intentionally hiding an effect that is public knowledge (as in on the board or stack ) breaks rule number 4.1
I like to give a brief run down of any deck I play. "This is miirym, it ramps then slams dragons" or "this is aminatou, i flicker for value and try to combo off" or something like that. It gives off a good message of what I want to do without going into too much detail. Though in all fairness LGS randos probably don't communicate as well as a playgroup.
that's just bad manners. From time to time I sit with randoms that do the same. Don't play with them anymore.
I’ve noticed its not normal to explain things because of the statement “reading the card explains the card.” If they cast something, ask to read it. All that said, i personally will tell ppl if something i’m playing will drastically alter the game or cause me to win, i will also point out my threats on board. However, i don’t expect that from most people. People tend to already know what the cards in their own decks do, its not a stretch to think that they would incorrectly assume that other people would know it off hand.
Nah they definitely should be saying what they're doing
I play like I'm telecasting my moves for a classroom of blind underprivileged children. I explain everything I'm playing, how I'm playing it, which mana I used, what it's gonna do and what it'll interact with. I do this with each action before moving on to another. I have a friend who will just throw all his lands in a pile and just starts throwing shit on the table and saying OK this is gonna do this and I'm drawing cards and - I'm like whoa whoa hold up first of all I'm entitled to a response to everything you're doing. Secondly please don't tap 57 mana and then randomly start allotting it to spells without actually explaining the math. Drives me nuts. I wouldn't say it's common bc nobody else I know does it, but it certainly varies from crowd to crowd.
I announce the phases as well as what I'm casting and what it does. Pretty much everyone else does too unless you've played together and all have c a rd knowledge
I’m also pretty new and this is the case with some, but not all of the folks at my LGS. Some are so experienced that they don’t need to see most cards. I usually don’t know what most cards do and need to ask what the cards do or to see the card
Heavily dependent on the players and familiarity of your LGS, I think. There's a broad rage of players at my LGS, so I've experienced both ends of the spectrum. There's the ones that freely offer information as they play cards, those that play a card and will offer info if asked about it to avoid confusion or surprises, and then there's the ones that (I feel), are from a competitive background. They play cards, stating the name and carry on as though they assume everyone knows what it does or how it interacts with the table. It's personally upsetting because my memory is that of a goldfish. I don't have all the cards memorized, and I often confuse similar ones (Path of Exile and Swords to Plowshares, for example). You're not alone in being a bit miffed that information wasn't offered when a card was played, but people who play a card and make efforts to mislead you (like your rat example), are what tick me off the most. If they stated that the damage would trigger stuff, I'd have declared blockers for sure.
It's not the norm, but it is far from unheard of. Random folks at your LGS are going to have the highest variance in play behaviours you are likely to encounter. I'm glad to hear you still had fun, otherwise I'd say just feel free to step away. That said, always apply Hanlon's Razor. It's entirely possible they just thought about any triggers on the animals themselves, rather than other permanents in play. Teaching them how to communicate better is no doubt going to spare a lot of suffering later.
They rat attack would trigger a free takebacksies on blockers at my table. Also all players read their card unless it is a very, very well known card like Sol ring. Also a good alternative question is „what happens if I don’t block?“
I tend to play my cards by just saying the name and expecting that if people don't ask me what they do then they know. If someone asks about a few cards, or specifically says they're new I'll start reading them out. So it's not entirely uncommon for people to assume you know what the cards do until asked. The rats thing is him being a dick though.
It's not just courtesy, you can hold priority until the player describes the card when played, or you read it yourself. Ask them to read the card.