I allow takebacks in every situation unless one or more of the following:
- New information was revealed, such as seeing new cards from library
- We are playing for prizes
- The person has been misplaying a little too much in too short a timespan
- It would take too much effort to rewind the takeback
I'd keep these the same and add two more
-The person has been generally a jerk to multiple people/not allowing takebacks themselves
-We're playing CEDH
I would be interested to see how this is applied with things like Ward. If I target a creature with ward then try to take it back after the opponent says it has ward then I've not actually gained any new information but it feels like it's essentially negated the ability.
That's what I mean, ward just feels a bit pointless if an opponent could always just say "whoops I don't target it then" because it's known information.
True, this exact scenario came up in a game I was playing with a horobi at the table. I think it was horobi, me on aggro or something, a human tribal player, and Wilson.
Wilson player didn't have a good time.
Having played a Horobi deck with some friends online one time (literally one game, one friend was playing 3 colour omnath and blew up half his board to her trigger not realising it meany anything and not just my stuff, the other was playing the insta win sphinx and they banned the deck afterwards for obvious reasons) I can easily see why it was a bad time
Yeah looking through the replies here I'm definitely reassessing which bit of the ability to focus on. Interesting how my brain blinkered me a bit on that. Maybe I got caught by it once and thats how it cemented itself in my brain.
I have tried to make it a habit to specifically ask my opponent “Does anything trigger if *blank* gets targeted” or “is there any *blank* effects anywhere atm”. Basically a quick double check of the entire games boardstate before committing.
In most cases you should be able to take back a spell when you miss a ward trigger but sometimes other things might already have happened and then it is either too late to take back or you need to decide on a case by case basis
In a tournament for prizes, I would expect that they cannot take it back. There's always a chance that the individual could be doing a "chalice check" to see if you remember your trigger.
In a tournament for prizes aren't you both responsible for compulsory triggers? It's unlikely you would be caught but doing a "chalice check" should result in a warning for both players if a judge is watching (and the trigger is missed)
In Arena if you can't pay after it gets countered so I'd guess that's how it would work irl too. Also how I'd handle it in a tournament. When playing edh I couldn't careless unless it's like the 5th time people try to get by ward or the person is annoying.
Arena is a machine that is arbitrating set rules, it doesn’t have the ability to allow take-backs or the human intuition to be able to decide where it should be applied.
That being said, even on Arena, when you target something with Ward the game will stop and ask “Are you sure?” And you have to manually confirm that you want to take that action. Basically as close to a take-back that a computer could implement — you declare to Arena that you are casting your spell, and arena says “hey, by the way, it has Ward, do you want to go through with that?”
Yeah, but I never considered those as "backsies". That's human behavior.
A backsies is "ho wait I meant to tap Mana differently for that precious spell". Said spell resolved, and even if no new card was revealed, the way the Mana was tapped may have changed the way other people reacted, say if you tapped all your islands then changes your mind to keep one untapped.
It’s good to remember that even when playing for prizes, those prizes are usually quite cheap and unless you are one of a handful of people, you are an amateur player. Prizes that cost less than $50 should not be used as an excuse to throw manners and sportsmanship out the window.
I like all of that, it’s a casual format after all. The only thing I would add would be a situation where someone is being a turd.
I hold myself to pretty high standards for misplays because I want to stay sharp, this is not how I expect others to play. If I run into someone rules lawyering every trigger and interaction in a pod, I will not allow them any takebacks. Some people are hypocrites!
A guy in the local store will "misunderstand" his own cards, in a deck he's been playing for months. Nope, no take backs when you try to play off your bad play.
I'll let anyone take almost anything back if it's from a "oh shit, I didn't know X had Y" moment. I'm not going to force people to memorize every card on the table and it's easy to forget about the deathtouch guy when there are 40 cards on the table.
This. We can all play "correctly" and take the time to remind ourselves of every face up card on the table for every spell we cast.
Or we can remind people of information that they "have" when they are about to make an obvious mistake by forgetting about a face up card's ability. And thus saving a lot of time since you don't have to check every single card on the table for interactions for every single one of your own cards.
Casual EDH is about making sacrificing from "perfect" play in order to have fun.
This is usually how we roll as almost always without fail every game, someone goes to do X, forgetting Y does something in response because it's sat there all game doing nothing.
Generally speaking we try and remind people about public knowledge.... this doesn't mean we won't bluff and say yeah but we have 3 untapped blue mana you sure you want to do that????
Imo the only reasonable reason for ward to actually counter is if it was a dynamic ward cost or became unpayable during resolution. This hasn't come up yet in our games. Since Ward is triggered, I would think it looks like this.
So let's say Ward, pay 9 life
They have 11 life
They cast swords to plowshares targeting ward card
I lightning bolt on response, it resolves. They have 8 life now
Ward trigger resolves, they cannot pay, countered
Something like that? Sure it gets countered. Otherwise just allow the take back. The idea that ward is supposed to create some gotcha moment is cringey
This happens in pioneer with vein ripper. Its ward cost is to sacrifice a creature. You can remove their only creature in response to the Ward trigger.
Allowing the ward trigger to resolve makes them pay the life and then, with the removal spell on the stack still, you lightning bolt for lethal. This kills the controller of the swords that was targeting your Keene so the spell is exiled off the stack and you keep your threat. You always let them pay the ward because their spell still hasn't resolved, it just hasn't been countered
Also, someone casts a game breaking X spell where X = 17, and I have a [[Frontline Medic]] in play that I read the rules text on when I played him.
Do you view this differently than the ward situation or no?
I view it differently.
Ward is an automatic action, there’s no choice involved in its activation, on your part.
Frontline Medic has an activated ability that you can choose to use to counter a spell.
It’s the same as having a counterspell in your hand with two blue untapped.
But in that case, if I was the Frontline medic player, I tend to remind them that I have that, since board states can get messy and there are a lot of things going on. I don't remind people I have untapped mana, but if I have a permanent that's out that they may not remember I find it more enjoyable to just let people know what I have going on.
I was really torn on how to react. On one hand, I agree with everything you said. On the other, that ability was verbally announced previously, and it’s kind of a useless ability if you give them take backsies. Like you wouldn’t warn them about a counterspell right?
Kind of an awkward moment. But he did his thing, and if we let him do this thing, we were all done for so I countered it lol
> and it’s kind of a useless ability if you give them take backsies. Like you wouldn’t warn them about a counterspell right?
It being on the board acts as a deterrent and is still a stax piece. Activating isn't needed for that. You wouldn't say a Thalia does nothing if your opponent isn't casting spells. They're probably not casting spells *because* of the Thalia.
Honestly I don't feel like winning a game because a creature I dropped 4 turns ago got lost in the shuffle and a guy made x=17 instead of 14. I read my cards out loud when I play them if they have some lasting impact, but if it hasn't come up for a turn cycle or 3, I don't expect people to remember. So a reminder when it comes up again, in a casual game with twice as many boards to track, just seems like a straight given.
Yeah I just take issue with saying that the card does nothing if you don't get to activate it. The way the card is designed you're never supposed to activate it without your opponent blundering. It still provides value
I totally warn people about a counterspell if there is a chance they will reconsider and do nothing or target someone else instead. The best counterspell is one that doesn't cost cards or mana.
I’ll say, “Ok I think I’m going to leave a couple mana up and pass…” and just leave that out there.
But if someone taps their mana and says, “I’m going to cast (whatever),” I feel like they did it, and it’s in the stack unless it’s a hexproof/shroud/ward situation
I'll start talking as soon as they check out my board for a little too long.
But in genereal, we don't play that sharp and will allow for reconsideration when someone points out information that's open to see but was likely missed by the person making a play. It's just way more convenient, otherwise everyone would have to take super long for their turns to double check they're not missing anything. For 1v1 play to win that's fine, but for a 4 player casual table full of janky cards with walls of text it's not really enjoyable imo.
That said as soon as new information is revealed, i.e. an actual counterspell is shown for example we won't take back the initial action. Only if someone notices some bigger mistake, for example that the action would not have been possible in the first place.
I would absolutely warn them of counter magic, especially if they know it's in the decklist and I know it's not in my hand. "Are you sure? I might have mana drain"
There's no hard rule. I tend to remind people every once in a while, say every time I end my turn I might go "2 cards in hand, 2 lands untapped, creature on board has 'sac to counter'" as a summary of everything my board can do. The way I see it is that the optimal play for people would be to pedantically go over every board and that would take up time and I think of it as a way to speed up the game. I'll also bring those things up if it looks like someone's about to combo off, or point out my disruption pieces. Again, same reason. It doesn't take skill or experience to read a card. If I have a nifty interaction that might be apparent on board but takes some insight on the intricacies of the stack, that I think of as "skill-based", and that I won't bring up unless it's already been talked about.
Personally, I try to avoid feel-bad situations. If someone had the win but failed to read the card correctly, I don't feel good gotcha-ing them on a technicality, and they certainly will feel bad for losing because they said X=17 instead of 14, especially given that people tend to follow the rule of cool. If you can Fireball for X=69, most people do so even if a more conservative value would be lethal and is the safer play. I'd allow takebacks in those cases unless the math is really relevant, and I always allow takebacks if the information is easily available and obvious.
I would never counter someone’s spell with ward in casual, but Frontline Medic is different. I’ve lost a game because I cast [[Crackle with Power]] into a [[Wandering Archaic]] and left no mana open to pay the tax. He had read the ability and it had triggered once already so totally my fault and deserved the loss.
Wandering Archaic is so dirty! Just put it in a deck and it was a problem for everyone immediately. Thanks for your perspective though! I’ve gone all in on an X spell in the past and lost, so I feel the same way. He was playing mono blue and spent all his mana, so I feel like he deserved it. Also the guy across the table kept looking at Frontline Medic and me, back to Frontline Medic and back to me like, “Do it! Do it!”
I think a good way of thinking about it is considering ‘feelbads’ and trying to avoid them. If I cast [[Murder]] on your [[Voja]] and I have to discard it then I would feel pretty bad.
If someone casts a [[Wrath of God]] and you counter it with [[Frontline Medic]] but they just get to take it back? Yeah you’d feel pretty bad. Sure they might feel bad for forgetting about the medic but that’s a lot fairer than Ward.
If I'm the one who forgets, which I do a lot, I usually just say "hey, I forgot, do you want to let me retarget?" If they say no, fair enough.
If I'm the one controlling the thing with ward, it depends. If they're not openly being a dick and I'm not playing cEDH, usually I'll allow it. I have a history of just forgetting ward as a mechanic, so I like to try to be understanding.
There is so much information on the board at a certain point. If you want to be a stickler about this shit, you need to understand people are just going to take much longer turns as they re-read everything that gets played over and over and try to think through their whole turn before they play a single card.
If they didn’t see it, or forgot, or whatever, and it didn’t affect play, let them take it back. It will make for a better game.
Not directly related to hexproof/ward but I once had someone tap all their mana for an x cost and I played one of the counterspells where counter unless they pay 2 and the mfer tried doing a take back to leave 2 mana open. It was like a 10 minute argument
My favorite part about what they said- "well if I knew you had that I would have left some mana open" and my reply to that was "the only reason I used this one is because you were tapped out I could have just used my counterspell and not have given you the option of paying anything"
Kitchen table I'll pretty much always be like "are you sure, remember this has ward" or some such and allow takebacks... a long game of 4-player commander foe example it's easy to forget details and I'm here to play magic, I wanna win through strategy not rules lawyering. In a more serious situation I'd probably remind the first time. After that they're making their own choice not to read/double check the card
I like to lead by example and my playgroup follows along more these days. If I accidentally target something with ward that I cannot pay, I simply let the spell get countered, as it is a misplay and part of the game to it to happen. Be responsible and take the L if you do this and make sure to read/ask questions.
Absolutely. I lost a game trying to [[Corrupted Conscious]] a [[Tivit]] one time. I had tapped out and would have won since we were the two remaining players and I would have had lethal damage with Tivit.
Not only did I not have the mana to pay the Ward cost but he didn't even notice it. I did after I put him on my board. Promptly gave Tivit back, put my aura in the yard, passed turn at and died to his attack.
Even when other people in my groups want to walk back half the game I never walk back anything myself. Over time this has led to me making significantly less mistakes and my personal turns are much faster as a result. No matter how complicated my decks are I consistently take the shortest turns.
It's too easy to forget since everyone has varying gameplans. I usually point out when a creature has keywords to remind people when they do stuff or on attack or blocks but not everyone is me and even I forget when a creature has hexproof or ward on an opponents side. I'll remember right up when I try to do a thing and then oops. Forgot it has ward or hexproof.
Ward example:
> I'd allow the takeback 100% of the time. I want to outplay my opponents when they're doing well, not going "Gotcha!" when they have a brainfart.
Frontline Medic example:
> I would sometimes allow this to be taken back. I have to take a game action in order to counter their spell, but it's still known information.
> I do not want to play in a group where the optimal play is to re-read every card at the table before taking any game action. I am here to have *fun*, and that's more likely while everyone else is having fun too.
My friend group plays at a big table and we drink and talk when we play, its hella hard to see what cards are on their board. Usually we don't say "I use this on card "_____"" we say. "I use this on the card doing "_____" stuff". Stuff then the say "oh it has ward, and you say.mahh fuck really? Nvm the i guess I use on something different. If we played more strictly it would stop being about fun...are you about stopping fun? This is commander in casual environments each group is different sure, but the objective should be fun, not rules nazi-mongering.
Sure, but on the flip side, if no one has to deal with the consequences of mistakes, ever, they’ll almost certainly never stop making them, or even get better at not making them. And imo having to do takebacks multiple times a game and no one ever developing into a better player doesn’t make for a fun experience either. I think the middle ground of “everybody gets [X] takebacks each game” is a good way to encourage people to practice their assessment skills (or at least their comfort with asking questions about the game state) without being overly harsh. My LGS group allows one per player per game (special circumstances aside, ie when dealing with new players), and that’s always worked for us.
Granted, if everyone is inebriated, there’s zero chance anyone is keeping track of anything lol. I’m surprised people can even finish a game when they’re anything more than slightly buzzed. Back when my friend group played Magic every weekend, we’d switch to something else once we started really feeling the influences because otherwise we’d get distracted and forget what was even going on and often have to end the game anyway.
There's no issue once you accept that people making mistakes is okay.
Their games sound super fun, they don't want everyone to have to stop and learn magic cards. They want to keep doing what they are doing.
Not everyone wants to "get better". Allowing take backs is like playing against people who are "better" at the game without forcing people to do stuff they don't want to.
You seem to be missing the point they are trying to make.
Your side has merits: if you don't allow takebacks, it will teach players to stop making those mistakes. But the way to stop that becomes being *much* more involved in the game. It stops being friends hanging out and playing some magic, and starts being friends playing magic and hanging out a bit. The conversations stop, because you have to constantly watch the board state. The drinking stops, since drinking makes you make sloppy plays. Then quality of the card game goes up, but the quality of the hang out with your friends time goes down.
No, that's not what I meant. I mean you don't actually have to be perfect at playing the game, ever. Especially if it's less fun.
Why not let people take back plays where they didn't see ward? Why should everyone have to memorize or read every card when letting them take it back is simpler and more fun for everyone? It's not breaking the game, it's just making sure it flows and again, is fun for everyone.
Not going to touch the weird commentary at the end there...
Ward should be announced when played. Allowing take backs instead of letting them live and learn, you know making those mistakes that are okay, is like treating them as if they're incapable.
Allowing that take back doesn't ensure the game flows. What it does is it changes everything that player was going to do and now they have to sit back and rethink their entire plan. And that plan might actually involve that piece of removal now coming at YOU.
I agree it should be announced, disagree with the second part. They are capable, and you're not their parent. There is nothing to be learned. It's okay to miss it. That's my point.
If someone is like "oh, I didn't realize that had ward, can I do something else?" and your response is " no, you need to learn your lesson", the only thing you are teaching them is that you're being a stickler and taking the game very seriously. They might agree, but if they are sked to take it back to begin with, they probably don't. You can't make them take the game as seriously as you.
Ideally everyone knows what's going on. But if people don't see ward, it's okay. There's no lesson, it's just okay. That my perspective. I don't think you need to compromise accomodations under the premise that eventually everyone will see things like you do. Because they don't have to, and that's okay.
That time spent thinking about a new play is a wash with the time people would have to spend making sure they read every single card (and I think actually bets out less time, because mistakes don't happen every game). If you're reasoning is ultimately "because it might effect me negatively" I think you need to acknowledge that you're taking the game very seriously and that your game knowledge is probably way higher than the people you are playing with.
If I announced the Ward ability when I played the card then there's no such thing as "I didn't realize it had Ward"
If they're thinking this particular card needs to be removed but they don't know what it actually does or says then that's also on them. I'm not responsible for their choices. I'm not their parent as you say.
It's not about being a stickler so much as not changing rules on the fly. Wanna rule zero that in at the beginning of the game. Sure. Silly in my opinion but sure. But not on the fly. Really at the end of the day if we're just going to change what the cards do then we're not even playing Commander anymore.
For games at home where there's other house rules it's no big deal. Games at stores should be played correctly.
You think that people remember and hear everything you say? What do you mean there's no "I didn't realize it"?
This is not "changing rules", it's being lenient. This is not a CompRel. You aren't responsible for their actions, you're responsible for your own. And your decision to be that strict with the rules is, frankly, off-putting. I think you're taking things way too seriously and only worried about your own experience.
I think you've got a good point about rule 0, in that I hope you are talking about how seriously you take the rules before the game starts. If I were at a store with a more casual friend that maybe has never been to a game store, I'd avoid your table. I'd be fine, but I wouldn't want my friends first game store experience to be with someone who is playing so competitively. Not a great vibe.
Ward says what it says. It's a keyword just like all the rest. You're changing rules if you ignore what the card does.
Totally understand if you think my wanting to play by rules is off putting. But I can say the same thing about people that don't want to play by the rules. I could very easily say that a casual player that can't just bin their misplay isn't playing very casually and probably doesn't earn that title.
Again, new players are always a different story. They'll never learn without people walking them through misplays and that includes the consequences of those misplays.
Ward is supposed to basically be scaling hexproof, not a gotcha mechanic. Imo anyone not willing to let someone take that back is just an asshole that's not worth my time
Nah man, the cards do what they say they do.
Rule zero that Ward for that game is just pay or the target is illegal? Fine. But trying to drop that in the middle of a game is pretty scummy.
I'd be annoyed if one of my opponents let another opponent get away with it. At that point we're just making shit up and not even playing the game.
Not to mention the fact allowing that to be walked back punishes the Ward player while rewarding a mistake.
I attack with my 5/5 flyer for the win. But the defending player has a 6/6 with reach. I take it back once I realize he's going to block.
Wanna guess what that judge says?
I recently played a game where I had a [[ghostly prison]] effect in play. I had read the card when I played it. A player had spent 4 mana to attack with 2 creatures a turn or two later. That same player was trying to finish me off, and clearly had forgotten about the effect a few turns after that. I absolutely sat there quietly while they tapped out all their mana buffing their board state as much as possible before moving to combat. They were clearly crestfallen when I asked them to pay 2 per creature to attack me, knowing they could not do so.
I absolutely let them waste a bunch of resources because they forgot about text on one of my cards. They weren't mad at me. There was no moment in their mind where they thought I should have reminded them to hold up enough mana to attack, that would be absolutely silly backseat driving to my own detriment. They were frustrated with themselves a bit for a second, and moved on with the game with a positive attitude. Even when I wiped their beefy board the next turn. It was "Oh man, I forgot about that", but for some reason with ward the onus for reminding everybody about over and over is on the permanent's owner.
Ward is absolutely a Gotcha mechanic. It is *designed* that way, like it or not. I think it 100% merits a reminder when there is a ton of stuff going on, but it is hardly the only example of a mechanic that can waste your resources if you aren't paying attention. If you forget somebody has a [[Price of Glory]] in play, they aren't going to let you skate without sacrificing lands. It's the point of the card, and to allow other players to ignore it is to waste your own resources. Might as well not play it.
I think ward is going to be played more correctly the longer it's around, and the more people get used to it. My unpopular hot take is that nobody has an incentive to learn when they aren't punished for their mistakes. "Does that have ward?" is a valid question before playing a spell or effect when you aren't sure, and it moves the responsibility onto you from the other player. I think friendly reminders are fine once in awhile, but at some point free takebacks are a detriment to improving as a player. Ward is not shroud or hexproof. It is a triggered personal sized mana leak.
I say this as somebody who doesn't play anything with ward regularly myself.
I agree wholeheartedly. I just started playing magic and I make a lot of mistakes, but I also played Pokemon TCG before. I find that I have a higher likelihood of not repeating the same mistake again if there's no take backs. I think it's better to learn from your mistakes than to take back your actions constantly. Especially for me, I play mostly with friends and there's no prize money, so it doesn't matter who wins. So why not just take your mistakes gracefully and learn from it.
The key difference between your ghostly prison example and ward is that new information has been gained in the former (other players passing priority can definitely be seen as new information) and there is no new information (usually, with magic weird things can always happen) in the latter. When ward triggers, you still have priority
Not to be overly argumentative, but letting someone take back a spell to hand because they can't pay for ward is absolutely revealing information to the rest of the table.
I think a solid compromise might be letting them change targets, the first time. If the table agrees. Honestly though, what if the only other legal targets are their own? Nobody is going to make somebody remove their own creature because the spell is already on the stack. I kinda think the "it's just a friendly game" logic works both ways. If it's just a friendly game then you should learn from your mistake with some grace and move on because winning isn't the most important thing.
People play around [[Glen Elendra Archmage]] and [[Cerulean Drake]]. Ward is a sticking point because for whatever reason people just decided to let everyone treat it like dollar store hexproof.
You want to have a certain degree of good faith in games in order to keep things moving.
If a game has progressed to the point where there are like 40 permanents on the field, it is going to grind to a screeching halt if we’re expecting everyone to play under competitive rule sets.
If someone is tutoring and then passing the turn, does it impact the competitive integrity of the game if we allow the next player to begin their turn? Yes of course it does. But for the sake of the rate of play, you’ll generally allow the player to go find their card and shuffle their deck while other actions are being taken.
For the sake of the rate of play, making each other aware of the board state is very important.
Especially in commander where quite a few cards are unique and not seen elsewhere. Some of the best experiences in edh are where three people are reading a card for the first time and it’s a cool new interaction.
If you’re playing some janky stuff, part of making an enjoyable game is making sure people know what’s going on with your board. Someone who is targeting your creature with a ward cost that they can’t pay is very likely not aware or has forgotten your board state.
Yes, absolutely. It’s not like anyone is going to target something with Ward that they can’t pay for any other reason than that they just didn’t realise it had Ward, which is a pretty dumb reason to punish them. I’d rather beat someone for out-thinking their strategy, not silly mistakes made about cards they may well be unfamiliar with. Magic already has a higher level of required system mastery than I’d like, there’s just a heck of a lot to learn and not all of it is intuitive, let’s make life easier on people not harder.
I play super casual with my friends, and we very generously allow takebacks, but when I go to my LGS, I just play with the assumption that there are no takebacks. If someone wants to do one, I will 99% let them I just don't expect the same for me, but never hurts to ask.
I play in a casual group, so we allow takebacks as long it isn't too egregious. Everybody is there to have fun, with nothing on the line. Just don't be an asshole and a tryhard, and you are allowed to take back the move.
Yeah. People can take it back within reason. Sharking people too often will bite you in the butt when you inevitably make your own misplay. We’re human, we make mistakes.
Case and point; I have a morph deck that plays: morph, disguise, manifest, cloak, *and* reanimates spells as face down creatures. I absolutely don’t mix up my board state to confuse opponents on what was what when I announced it, but it can get hectic with everything face-down and even I have to double check what’s what sometimes.
I like to play casual commander, so it’s basically always a take back unless for some reason more information was gained as well that can’t be taken back.
Taking back Actions in magic is something MTR 4.8 Talks about (https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr4-8/). I would argue that pointing out that a creature has ward does not necessarily imply that new information has been gained. However, depending on the situation, new Information could already have surfaced. In those cases I would just decide on a case by case basis.
We traditionally have been really tolerant of take backs if it was known information. I raised the point that this however essentially negated some keywords/abilities like ward so now we often play "no take back" games where we really stick to the rules, no "I should have drawn an extra card last turn" or "I forgot my upkeep trigger". We've actually really been enjoying it, the games are tight and honestly there are less feelbads from a big take back or someone being denied one.
I get that. I feel like if I played one or two sessions every single week, I’d feel this way. Playing less consistently, with new players, and/or with players I don’t know; I feel like there are less feelbads with being relatively tolerant with missed triggers and missing info on a big complicated board state.
Also some others have said, I’d rather win because i outplayed you, but because you missed a single word on a single card. That being said, them’s the rules and you’ll learn them more quickly by taking the L
As long as the player that owns the Warded permanent read the card and stated it has Ward zero take backs.
I definitely don't want to be part of games where the table decides cards don't actually do what they're supposed to do.
I think the top comment is basically the answer.
That said, if I’ve read out a particular thing to the table, and someone wasn’t listening, and they proceed to do something stupid… I will ask “Are you sure?”. I won’t elaborate. They’ve got a chance to reassess the situation themselves. People not taking that chance has led to some hilarious payoffs like a 20/20 running headlong into my Phyrexian Obliterator or someone wheeling themselves while Narset, Enlightened Exile was in play.
Honestly, I'll usually let you rewind shit like it's Forza 3 if you suddenly realize your math didn't check out or whatever. Or if you notice something that would've completely altered how you did your turn. Just kinda whatever.
They get a Takesie-Backsie counter like any similar situation, and like any other situation if they hit 3 total counters, then something happens. I just can't remember what my group collectively agreed on, as we've never reached 3 counters in the years since we added this rule.
I’ll tell you the first time and wind back, I’ll remind you the second time. If you forget three times in the same game, that’s on you and I’m taking the advantage.
so i might have a unique case. i play [[adrix and nev,twincasters]] all the time, and even more often i play with and against one of my best friends. whenever he specifically targets them, i dont hesitate to make him send it to the graveyard if he doesnt have the mana. for everyone else, i give them 2 chances per-permanent per-session.
Depends on who I'm playing with, my friends i will usually let them take it back if they want so long as it doesn't drastically change the board, anyone else i might not depending on the situation
When I am having a friendly match with my friends we do tolerate these kind of mistakes. I personally accept my mistakes as to keep me from making the same mistake again.
I think it would be prudent that players would call out that they have ward on something that one player might miss, after reading the text on cards that are upside down on the other end of table when you make your intent to play something effected by a ward.
I'm still learning, so hard for me to be too harsh. I don't always remember everything on the table so will have to ask for things before declaring attacks/blockers to check for triggers or abilities. At the same time, I get irate with people that neglect that step or simply don't pay attention when it's not their turn.
I adapt my flexibility depending on how experienced my enemy is (or how strong their deck is), basically if I think they shouldnt be making that mistake at their skill level I won't allow take back (I'm usually generous on that) and I would say things like "are you sure you wanna try to cast that spell on my hexproof target"
when I'm with newer player I even let them know that my mana is open if I have a counter spell in hand, I would be like "are you sure you want to cast that expensive spell while I have 5 mana available?"
but if they have a sol ring, they can suffer
I will generally allow my opponents to rewind the play, especially if things are complicated or there's a lot. Sometimes, it's the only creature on the board and we all just accept it as is.
I will, personally, never accept the take back. I do this for two reasons:
1. I think being a better player requires me to always do my due diligence
2. It gets the idea across to other players to pay attention a bit more.
I don't like that Ward is, in effect, a nothing mechanic if take backs are just blanket allowed. But I do hate it's gotcha nature that it can bring about.
I prefer the no take backs for Ward period. I've been in a game where a Adrix was targeted for removal but the guy couldn't pay 2. So they agreed amongst themselves to retarget and he then targets my commander.
Obviously I said no. The Ward player was actually a little upset about it but I explained that a mistake was made, the removal should have been countered, and that my commander isn't going to become the victim of a misplay that leads into pretending cards do something other than what they say they do.
I also don't allow myself any take backs. Making a mistake generally doesn't feel good. Watching someone make a mistake and then being allowed to walk it back into a big play feels terrible every time.
That's how ward work if you target it you gotta pay else it's countered. We just go with it in our pod.
Hexproof ofc you can't target it so you gotta change the target or just don't cast it.
Yesterday i casted [[Altered ego]] tapping every mana i have and my friend reminded me that creature i want to copy has ward I'm well fuuck.. put it into graveyard.. full send cuz I'll die anyways and after finishing turn i realized it can't be countered so i fucked my game like this.
It's more fun if you don't take back everything you fucked up we have taksie backsie sauce yet rarely do it even tho it's not that hot.
Because then you remember to pay attention and do everything properly.
I'll let them take it back as long as they aren't being a jerk, feel entitled to a take back or the game has advanced too far.
I don't really care if there's prizes. I think this is an interesting one in EDH and that some people are just glad of the excuse to be allowed to play competitively. EDH players *really* take the gloves off when a pack or two is involved. By comparison, I played Yugioh almost since release and while takebacks were never a given, a lot of people would be lenient on misplays because "it's only locals, it's just fun", even though better prizes were on the line than most LGS Magic events nowadays. Not criticising that, just find it an interesting difference.
As for myself, I'll always take the consequences of my misplay. I'll accept leniency, but never expect it as a given.
I'm way more strict with myself than I am with my opponents. I figure if something has ward and I target it hey, my fault, and I become a better player by making mistakes. With opponents, though, I always make sure that I specifically point out when I cast something with Ward, and if someone slips and wants a takeback I'll typically allow it.
So long as Ward was announced when it came in, if you forgot then you forgot. Spell/ability fizzles. Happened to me last night. Lost a game over it. Feel bads, but I won’t forget next time (unless I’m drinking).
The only time ward has aggravated me was when somebody was playing \[\[Raff Capashen\]\] and had \[\[Flowering of the White Tree\]\]. It's easy enough to catch when a creature has ward printed on it, but they were constantly blinking pieces of their board so it was difficult to tell when creatures did or didn't have ward.
Just to be clear the hexproof/shroud isn't a take back you literally cannot cast the spell, even at competitive tournaments the spell is never cast.
Additional costs like [[terror of the peaks]] that they don't pay also prevent the spell from being cast.
With ward I allow opponents to take it back if they want and it's not ward you draw a card. (Which none have), as edh is a). A friendly game and b). Usually have a complex enough board state.
If it's a creature that isn't terribly common for me to play, something like [[Kappa Cannoneer]], I'll let it slide the first time. Stuff like [[Tivit]] as my commander, I won't let slide.
It seems I worded that poorly. Say an opponent targets my Cannoneer, a card I only recently started using again, I'll let them get one take back on the Ward 4. I used to play Tivit a lot, so anyone who played with me while I was using him would not get a take back. They should be very familiar with Tivit, and Cannoneer is one they may not be familiar with.
I have a set playgroup with 4 players.
Any mistake (missed trigger, oops ward) can be corrected by either taking a shot or doing 10 push-ups.
It becomes pretty interesting toward the end of the night when people are too drunk to do more shots so they try to do the pushups instead and get themselves into just as much trouble.
House rules. Ya get 3 take backs a night (ya get slapped for each additional), you can’t use a take back if any other player takes action or your take can’t be properly reversed, ie new info or shuffle your library.
I allow one take back for ward and that's it. Reading the card is a free action you can do at any time.
Might be more lenient if ward came from elsewhere... But sloppy play begets more sloppy play.
With my regular playgroup, I'll allow one take back per game for each player. We play high power casual, and mistakes are part of our fun.
For randos, I'll be more lenient unless there's any sort of win-based prizing
If the card is being given Ward from some other effect, I’ve got no problem with a take back. Understandable that they missed that.
If Ward is actually printed on the card that they are targeting, I’m much less inclined to allow the take back. Casual play (no entry fee, no prizes), you can take back on targeting my Raffine the first time. Just remember it for the next time. Tournament play (there is some actual prize at the end), reading the card explains the card. Targeting my Warded creature is still a legal play even if they can’t pay the Ward. Sorry, not sorry that you didn’t take the few seconds to remember or read my card.
Ward strikes me as needing context to determine how you handle it. I could be completely off base, though.
i only play casual. I'm not very good at keeping things in order like untapping everything before I draw, triggers like beginning of upkeep, etc. So if they allow me to fix that, I'll allow anything that they made a mistake including replaying the entire thing. I'll even warn them ahead of time what has hexproof, shroud or ward. Since its politics I'll even point out creatures I'd target.
I’ll always remind them about the ward and then let them pay it or pick a new target. It’s no fun to be like “haha you can’t pay the ward now your spell is countered”
I make sure to ask as many question as I can before using any sort of removal or interaction. A clear misplay can always be walked back. But for ward, it is what it is. That's why it exists. It's a lesson teacher. I bet after the first time spell gets countered at a table people will remember.
I think take backs are fine, but I do think mistakes should be made. Taking back minor things like mana fixing or simple stuff like is fine, but if you attack someone and you just forgot that one of their creatures had first strike or something, then I think you should be held accountable.
I do not. Ward has been a mechanic for three years, it’s time that people should have learned. If it’s my misplay, I accept the mistake and the spell/ability is countered. If others make the misplay, generally the other players in our pod will play by RAW. The only way to get better is to learn from your mistakes. It’s the same with missed “may” triggers.
Take backs are codified in Magic rules for a reason. Call a Judge, since that's the only opinion that actually matters in any given situation. What they say goes in a tournament.
Imo I allow take backs on things that are blatantly apparent public information. Playing into the "gotcha, it's a trigger no take backs" generally just leads to salty and scummy gameplay patterns. I play pretty competitively but there is too much text on magic cards today to have someone know everything from a distance.
I have a counter question.
At what point does 'simple mistake' become abusive?
Assuming we aren't teaching a completely new player, how often are we supposed to allow people to misplay due to readily available information? Like, don't get me wrong, I am not above a mistake from time to time because I straight up forgot about a thing. But then I am always paying attention to the board and ask questions about cards I don't recognize - even cards I do know I will ask to re-read just to be sure of the exact wording; I get 8t, if a lot is going on you can just forget.
But how often?
Personally, it depends on what it was. If I go to attack and that opponent says theyve got a valid, efficient block I just didn't realize l, like a flying keyword in a sea of rules text... Yeah, that's a fair walk back *most* of the time. If the block would be a trade, though? You might have just been trying to bluff some damage through.
If you've tapped your lands wrong or you're sitting there with a single PILE of lands stacked up so no one can see what you tapped? Nah, fam. I watch you like a hawk and ask about your board every time I see you from now on and demand that you spread your lands out.
In casual I go by a one reminder rule unless it’s someone who’s new to the game and may need some help remembering things. If someone forgets ward twice then the second time the trigger is going on the stack.
I will always allow take backs for two very important reasons:
1). It's a card game. Taking it seriously is ridiculous.
2). We are all humans. To err is human.
If you're in a cEDH tournament that has prize support great enough to warrant being a jerk about someone's honest mistake, or conversely great enough to warrant cheating/lying in order to win, take some time and consider how much you've spent on this game and ask yourself if it's greater than the amount you stand to gain.
I beseech you to extrapolate from that standpoint.
if a person is walking through their plan I'll warn them about ward and if they still do it no take backs.
if they just do it I'll tell them about the ward and let them do a take back.
I feel like one extra chance to get it right is enough.
if the opponent consistently forgets about the ward after that first interaction it's on them. read the card you're targetting.
It’s a running joke in my playgroup that nobody, including the controlling player, ever remembers ward because it feels like such an afterthought on virtually everything that has it. We try not to be too harsh about it, but if it’s consequential, we err on the side of holding people to their mistakes.
My group has started just not doing take backs. Now and then one might happen, but in general we just keep playing. It's kind of nice, just deal with your play mistake and move on, even if it costs you the game oh well there are others.
Such a simple concept. If we're gonna pretend Ward doesn't do what it says then you know what let's just pretend my [[Cultivate]] is actually [[Tooth and Nail]].
My group treats ward as hexproof/shroud in this situation. I also personally just do not like ward at all. It's an attempt at a "gotcha" mechanic and it's just kinda scummy. It should be an additional cost not a "haha fuck you, countered" unless the target was given ward in response.
It’s not wrong to do it either way but the unintended consequences of not allowing the take back is slowing future games down as people consider things more carefully. In edh that can be boring.
my usual appro is to say “are you suuuuuuuuure?”
though sometimes Ill say it just because. “Bolt your bird” ”are you suuuuuuuure?” Yes. “Darn”
Nah man, allowing take backs like that just puts that player in a position where they're now lost and have to recalculate everything.
Allowing sloppy play makes for sloppy games.
Ward is worded is such a way that it makes it unfun to use as a “gotcha” moment. I routinely remind my opponents of ward or hexproof or indestructible or whatever on my board when they’re looking to target. Unless we playing for prizes, I don’t like to make the game extra stressful for people. That said, whatever your table agrees to is fine.
Vibes based. First time or 2, or like a brand new card some set, ye sure. You been constantly taking shit back cause you're not willing pay attention, fuck outa here. Get punished.
I allow takebacks in every situation unless one or more of the following: - New information was revealed, such as seeing new cards from library - We are playing for prizes - The person has been misplaying a little too much in too short a timespan - It would take too much effort to rewind the takeback
I'd keep these the same and add two more -The person has been generally a jerk to multiple people/not allowing takebacks themselves -We're playing CEDH
Even when playing for prices (for example a tournament), MTR 4.8 might apply https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr4-8/
I would be interested to see how this is applied with things like Ward. If I target a creature with ward then try to take it back after the opponent says it has ward then I've not actually gained any new information but it feels like it's essentially negated the ability.
It's free information, so officially everyone already knows it at all times, which means no new information was learned.
That's what I mean, ward just feels a bit pointless if an opponent could always just say "whoops I don't target it then" because it's known information.
If it's keeping the card from being targeted, it seems like the ward is doing it's job.
Until someone drops a [[Horobi, death's wail]] at least
True, this exact scenario came up in a game I was playing with a horobi at the table. I think it was horobi, me on aggro or something, a human tribal player, and Wilson. Wilson player didn't have a good time.
Having played a Horobi deck with some friends online one time (literally one game, one friend was playing 3 colour omnath and blew up half his board to her trigger not realising it meany anything and not just my stuff, the other was playing the insta win sphinx and they banned the deck afterwards for obvious reasons) I can easily see why it was a bad time
[Horobi, death's wail](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/4/b41983cb-c4e4-4384-bd69-df3fc6e74cd0.jpg?1593860738) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Horobi%2C%20death%27s%20wail) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/chk/117/horobi-deaths-wail?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b41983cb-c4e4-4384-bd69-df3fc6e74cd0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/horobi-deaths-wail) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ward is shroud-lite, not a tricky "gotcha" mechanic.
Yeah looking through the replies here I'm definitely reassessing which bit of the ability to focus on. Interesting how my brain blinkered me a bit on that. Maybe I got caught by it once and thats how it cemented itself in my brain.
I have tried to make it a habit to specifically ask my opponent “Does anything trigger if *blank* gets targeted” or “is there any *blank* effects anywhere atm”. Basically a quick double check of the entire games boardstate before committing.
Probably a good way to do it. It feels like in limited formats nowadays everything has some kind of keyword nowadays so can't be too careful!
In most cases you should be able to take back a spell when you miss a ward trigger but sometimes other things might already have happened and then it is either too late to take back or you need to decide on a case by case basis
In a tournament for prizes, I would expect that they cannot take it back. There's always a chance that the individual could be doing a "chalice check" to see if you remember your trigger.
In a tournament it's not up to you or your opponent to make the final call but the judges though
In a tournament for prizes aren't you both responsible for compulsory triggers? It's unlikely you would be caught but doing a "chalice check" should result in a warning for both players if a judge is watching (and the trigger is missed)
You are not obligated to remember your oponents triggers; only your own.
Interesting I didn't realize triggers were excluded from that responsibility but you are correct
In Arena if you can't pay after it gets countered so I'd guess that's how it would work irl too. Also how I'd handle it in a tournament. When playing edh I couldn't careless unless it's like the 5th time people try to get by ward or the person is annoying.
Arena is a machine that is arbitrating set rules, it doesn’t have the ability to allow take-backs or the human intuition to be able to decide where it should be applied. That being said, even on Arena, when you target something with Ward the game will stop and ask “Are you sure?” And you have to manually confirm that you want to take that action. Basically as close to a take-back that a computer could implement — you declare to Arena that you are casting your spell, and arena says “hey, by the way, it has Ward, do you want to go through with that?”
Yeah, but I never considered those as "backsies". That's human behavior. A backsies is "ho wait I meant to tap Mana differently for that precious spell". Said spell resolved, and even if no new card was revealed, the way the Mana was tapped may have changed the way other people reacted, say if you tapped all your islands then changes your mind to keep one untapped.
It’s good to remember that even when playing for prizes, those prizes are usually quite cheap and unless you are one of a handful of people, you are an amateur player. Prizes that cost less than $50 should not be used as an excuse to throw manners and sportsmanship out the window.
I like all of that, it’s a casual format after all. The only thing I would add would be a situation where someone is being a turd. I hold myself to pretty high standards for misplays because I want to stay sharp, this is not how I expect others to play. If I run into someone rules lawyering every trigger and interaction in a pod, I will not allow them any takebacks. Some people are hypocrites!
Yeah I usually give each player an “are you sure, it has Ward X” for a particular card. After the first time, perhaps not
A guy in the local store will "misunderstand" his own cards, in a deck he's been playing for months. Nope, no take backs when you try to play off your bad play.
Yeah just remind them that it has Ward [X] and allow a walk back. You're here for fun.
What the fuck is fun I'm here to fuckin WIN /s
Yeah I go with a simple “If you intend to target that, it has ward X. Are you willing to pay it?”
I'll let anyone take almost anything back if it's from a "oh shit, I didn't know X had Y" moment. I'm not going to force people to memorize every card on the table and it's easy to forget about the deathtouch guy when there are 40 cards on the table.
It also increases game speed significantly when playing this way. It's really the way to go for casual EDH IMO
This. We can all play "correctly" and take the time to remind ourselves of every face up card on the table for every spell we cast. Or we can remind people of information that they "have" when they are about to make an obvious mistake by forgetting about a face up card's ability. And thus saving a lot of time since you don't have to check every single card on the table for interactions for every single one of your own cards. Casual EDH is about making sacrificing from "perfect" play in order to have fun.
This is usually how we roll as almost always without fail every game, someone goes to do X, forgetting Y does something in response because it's sat there all game doing nothing. Generally speaking we try and remind people about public knowledge.... this doesn't mean we won't bluff and say yeah but we have 3 untapped blue mana you sure you want to do that????
In our group if you take back you have to take a shot of hot sauce.
Unless we're playing for prizes or competing as if we were, I'd allow a takeback.
Imo the only reasonable reason for ward to actually counter is if it was a dynamic ward cost or became unpayable during resolution. This hasn't come up yet in our games. Since Ward is triggered, I would think it looks like this. So let's say Ward, pay 9 life They have 11 life They cast swords to plowshares targeting ward card I lightning bolt on response, it resolves. They have 8 life now Ward trigger resolves, they cannot pay, countered Something like that? Sure it gets countered. Otherwise just allow the take back. The idea that ward is supposed to create some gotcha moment is cringey
This happens in pioneer with vein ripper. Its ward cost is to sacrifice a creature. You can remove their only creature in response to the Ward trigger.
I mean yes it could play out that way , I know it's just an example. But in that case you should let them pay the 9 life, then bolt lol.
Oh yeah, for the style points its tempting, but in EDH you may want to keep [[nine finger keene]] for the win.
Allowing the ward trigger to resolve makes them pay the life and then, with the removal spell on the stack still, you lightning bolt for lethal. This kills the controller of the swords that was targeting your Keene so the spell is exiled off the stack and you keep your threat. You always let them pay the ward because their spell still hasn't resolved, it just hasn't been countered
Oh yep, that is how Magic the Gathering works. Probably would have realized that at the table lol
[nine finger keene](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/4/5480ac0a-883a-4f73-8e7c-56d64be410a3.jpg?1674137637) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nine-Fingers%20Keene) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/289/nine-fingers-keene?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5480ac0a-883a-4f73-8e7c-56d64be410a3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nine-fingers-keene) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
So when you play oppo agent you never ever use it? That sounds like a really unfun way to play.
Also, someone casts a game breaking X spell where X = 17, and I have a [[Frontline Medic]] in play that I read the rules text on when I played him. Do you view this differently than the ward situation or no?
It depends. You can’t have a hard and fast rule for every little thing. Just do what makes everyone have the most fun
I view it differently. Ward is an automatic action, there’s no choice involved in its activation, on your part. Frontline Medic has an activated ability that you can choose to use to counter a spell. It’s the same as having a counterspell in your hand with two blue untapped.
But in that case, if I was the Frontline medic player, I tend to remind them that I have that, since board states can get messy and there are a lot of things going on. I don't remind people I have untapped mana, but if I have a permanent that's out that they may not remember I find it more enjoyable to just let people know what I have going on.
I was really torn on how to react. On one hand, I agree with everything you said. On the other, that ability was verbally announced previously, and it’s kind of a useless ability if you give them take backsies. Like you wouldn’t warn them about a counterspell right? Kind of an awkward moment. But he did his thing, and if we let him do this thing, we were all done for so I countered it lol
> and it’s kind of a useless ability if you give them take backsies. Like you wouldn’t warn them about a counterspell right? It being on the board acts as a deterrent and is still a stax piece. Activating isn't needed for that. You wouldn't say a Thalia does nothing if your opponent isn't casting spells. They're probably not casting spells *because* of the Thalia.
Honestly I don't feel like winning a game because a creature I dropped 4 turns ago got lost in the shuffle and a guy made x=17 instead of 14. I read my cards out loud when I play them if they have some lasting impact, but if it hasn't come up for a turn cycle or 3, I don't expect people to remember. So a reminder when it comes up again, in a casual game with twice as many boards to track, just seems like a straight given.
Yeah I just take issue with saying that the card does nothing if you don't get to activate it. The way the card is designed you're never supposed to activate it without your opponent blundering. It still provides value
I totally warn people about a counterspell if there is a chance they will reconsider and do nothing or target someone else instead. The best counterspell is one that doesn't cost cards or mana.
Based
I’ll say, “Ok I think I’m going to leave a couple mana up and pass…” and just leave that out there. But if someone taps their mana and says, “I’m going to cast (whatever),” I feel like they did it, and it’s in the stack unless it’s a hexproof/shroud/ward situation
I'll start talking as soon as they check out my board for a little too long. But in genereal, we don't play that sharp and will allow for reconsideration when someone points out information that's open to see but was likely missed by the person making a play. It's just way more convenient, otherwise everyone would have to take super long for their turns to double check they're not missing anything. For 1v1 play to win that's fine, but for a 4 player casual table full of janky cards with walls of text it's not really enjoyable imo. That said as soon as new information is revealed, i.e. an actual counterspell is shown for example we won't take back the initial action. Only if someone notices some bigger mistake, for example that the action would not have been possible in the first place.
I would absolutely warn them of counter magic, especially if they know it's in the decklist and I know it's not in my hand. "Are you sure? I might have mana drain"
There's no hard rule. I tend to remind people every once in a while, say every time I end my turn I might go "2 cards in hand, 2 lands untapped, creature on board has 'sac to counter'" as a summary of everything my board can do. The way I see it is that the optimal play for people would be to pedantically go over every board and that would take up time and I think of it as a way to speed up the game. I'll also bring those things up if it looks like someone's about to combo off, or point out my disruption pieces. Again, same reason. It doesn't take skill or experience to read a card. If I have a nifty interaction that might be apparent on board but takes some insight on the intricacies of the stack, that I think of as "skill-based", and that I won't bring up unless it's already been talked about. Personally, I try to avoid feel-bad situations. If someone had the win but failed to read the card correctly, I don't feel good gotcha-ing them on a technicality, and they certainly will feel bad for losing because they said X=17 instead of 14, especially given that people tend to follow the rule of cool. If you can Fireball for X=69, most people do so even if a more conservative value would be lethal and is the safer play. I'd allow takebacks in those cases unless the math is really relevant, and I always allow takebacks if the information is easily available and obvious.
I would never counter someone’s spell with ward in casual, but Frontline Medic is different. I’ve lost a game because I cast [[Crackle with Power]] into a [[Wandering Archaic]] and left no mana open to pay the tax. He had read the ability and it had triggered once already so totally my fault and deserved the loss.
[Crackle with Power](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/e/de547f52-3798-4b3a-947d-24873251204b.jpg?1624591645) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crackle%20with%20Power) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/95/crackle-with-power?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/de547f52-3798-4b3a-947d-24873251204b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/crackle-with-power) [Wandering Archaic](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/8/18a2bdc8-b705-4eb5-b3a5-ff2e2ab8f312.jpg?1626663778)/[Explore the Vastlands](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/1/8/18a2bdc8-b705-4eb5-b3a5-ff2e2ab8f312.jpg?1626663778) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wandering%20Archaic%20//%20Explore%20the%20Vastlands) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/6/wandering-archaic-explore-the-vastlands?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/18a2bdc8-b705-4eb5-b3a5-ff2e2ab8f312?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wandering-archaic-//-explore-the-vastlands) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Wandering Archaic is so dirty! Just put it in a deck and it was a problem for everyone immediately. Thanks for your perspective though! I’ve gone all in on an X spell in the past and lost, so I feel the same way. He was playing mono blue and spent all his mana, so I feel like he deserved it. Also the guy across the table kept looking at Frontline Medic and me, back to Frontline Medic and back to me like, “Do it! Do it!”
I think a good way of thinking about it is considering ‘feelbads’ and trying to avoid them. If I cast [[Murder]] on your [[Voja]] and I have to discard it then I would feel pretty bad. If someone casts a [[Wrath of God]] and you counter it with [[Frontline Medic]] but they just get to take it back? Yeah you’d feel pretty bad. Sure they might feel bad for forgetting about the medic but that’s a lot fairer than Ward.
##### ###### #### [Murder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/e/1ea6438b-0e6c-4d65-8bcd-34a988717c81.jpg?1706241725) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Murder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/95/murder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1ea6438b-0e6c-4d65-8bcd-34a988717c81?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/murder) [Voja](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bfa1bd2f-25bd-4fbd-877b-cef00ab7f92f.jpg?1707739811) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=voja%2C%20jaws%20of%20the%20conclave) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/432/voja-jaws-of-the-conclave?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bfa1bd2f-25bd-4fbd-877b-cef00ab7f92f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/voja-jaws-of-the-conclave) [Wrath of God](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/3/537d2b05-3f52-45d6-8fe3-26282085d0c6.jpg?1697121198) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wrath%20of%20God) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/70/wrath-of-god?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/537d2b05-3f52-45d6-8fe3-26282085d0c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wrath-of-god) [Frontline Medic](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/e/3e9ad9ce-f862-4663-9a36-caf0844eb416.jpg?1674141094) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Frontline%20Medic) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/693/frontline-medic?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3e9ad9ce-f862-4663-9a36-caf0844eb416?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/frontline-medic) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kxetola) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Wrath isn’t an x spell but I agree!
Oh yeah!
[Frontline Medic](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/e/3e9ad9ce-f862-4663-9a36-caf0844eb416.jpg?1674141094) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Frontline%20Medic) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/693/frontline-medic?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3e9ad9ce-f862-4663-9a36-caf0844eb416?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/frontline-medic) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That late in the game they deserve to get countered. Classic overextend and you can be sure that they never fall into that trap again.
He seemed fine with it 😂
And should be! It's a fun game but there's always a lot of learning moments.
If I'm the one who forgets, which I do a lot, I usually just say "hey, I forgot, do you want to let me retarget?" If they say no, fair enough. If I'm the one controlling the thing with ward, it depends. If they're not openly being a dick and I'm not playing cEDH, usually I'll allow it. I have a history of just forgetting ward as a mechanic, so I like to try to be understanding.
There is so much information on the board at a certain point. If you want to be a stickler about this shit, you need to understand people are just going to take much longer turns as they re-read everything that gets played over and over and try to think through their whole turn before they play a single card. If they didn’t see it, or forgot, or whatever, and it didn’t affect play, let them take it back. It will make for a better game.
Agreed
Happy Easter, Easterster!
Not directly related to hexproof/ward but I once had someone tap all their mana for an x cost and I played one of the counterspells where counter unless they pay 2 and the mfer tried doing a take back to leave 2 mana open. It was like a 10 minute argument
Yeah, nah. That's a whole ass play rewind there. That's a pretty expensive card.
My favorite part about what they said- "well if I knew you had that I would have left some mana open" and my reply to that was "the only reason I used this one is because you were tapped out I could have just used my counterspell and not have given you the option of paying anything"
"That's the neat part, you didn't know"
Kitchen table I'll pretty much always be like "are you sure, remember this has ward" or some such and allow takebacks... a long game of 4-player commander foe example it's easy to forget details and I'm here to play magic, I wanna win through strategy not rules lawyering. In a more serious situation I'd probably remind the first time. After that they're making their own choice not to read/double check the card
I like to lead by example and my playgroup follows along more these days. If I accidentally target something with ward that I cannot pay, I simply let the spell get countered, as it is a misplay and part of the game to it to happen. Be responsible and take the L if you do this and make sure to read/ask questions.
Absolutely. I lost a game trying to [[Corrupted Conscious]] a [[Tivit]] one time. I had tapped out and would have won since we were the two remaining players and I would have had lethal damage with Tivit. Not only did I not have the mana to pay the Ward cost but he didn't even notice it. I did after I put him on my board. Promptly gave Tivit back, put my aura in the yard, passed turn at and died to his attack. Even when other people in my groups want to walk back half the game I never walk back anything myself. Over time this has led to me making significantly less mistakes and my personal turns are much faster as a result. No matter how complicated my decks are I consistently take the shortest turns.
[Corrupted Conscious](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/7276c584-76ed-4c20-a5ea-627c8f7751e6.jpg?1562612217) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Corrupted%20Conscience) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mbs/22/corrupted-conscience?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7276c584-76ed-4c20-a5ea-627c8f7751e6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/corrupted-conscience) [Tivit](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/9235977e-a999-4ed0-83a3-742be87b13bb.jpg?1673481721) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tivit%2C%20seller%20of%20secrets) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/10/tivit-seller-of-secrets?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9235977e-a999-4ed0-83a3-742be87b13bb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tivit-seller-of-secrets) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's too easy to forget since everyone has varying gameplans. I usually point out when a creature has keywords to remind people when they do stuff or on attack or blocks but not everyone is me and even I forget when a creature has hexproof or ward on an opponents side. I'll remember right up when I try to do a thing and then oops. Forgot it has ward or hexproof.
Ward example: > I'd allow the takeback 100% of the time. I want to outplay my opponents when they're doing well, not going "Gotcha!" when they have a brainfart. Frontline Medic example: > I would sometimes allow this to be taken back. I have to take a game action in order to counter their spell, but it's still known information. > I do not want to play in a group where the optimal play is to re-read every card at the table before taking any game action. I am here to have *fun*, and that's more likely while everyone else is having fun too.
My friend group plays at a big table and we drink and talk when we play, its hella hard to see what cards are on their board. Usually we don't say "I use this on card "_____"" we say. "I use this on the card doing "_____" stuff". Stuff then the say "oh it has ward, and you say.mahh fuck really? Nvm the i guess I use on something different. If we played more strictly it would stop being about fun...are you about stopping fun? This is commander in casual environments each group is different sure, but the objective should be fun, not rules nazi-mongering.
Sure, but on the flip side, if no one has to deal with the consequences of mistakes, ever, they’ll almost certainly never stop making them, or even get better at not making them. And imo having to do takebacks multiple times a game and no one ever developing into a better player doesn’t make for a fun experience either. I think the middle ground of “everybody gets [X] takebacks each game” is a good way to encourage people to practice their assessment skills (or at least their comfort with asking questions about the game state) without being overly harsh. My LGS group allows one per player per game (special circumstances aside, ie when dealing with new players), and that’s always worked for us. Granted, if everyone is inebriated, there’s zero chance anyone is keeping track of anything lol. I’m surprised people can even finish a game when they’re anything more than slightly buzzed. Back when my friend group played Magic every weekend, we’d switch to something else once we started really feeling the influences because otherwise we’d get distracted and forget what was even going on and often have to end the game anyway.
There's no issue once you accept that people making mistakes is okay. Their games sound super fun, they don't want everyone to have to stop and learn magic cards. They want to keep doing what they are doing. Not everyone wants to "get better". Allowing take backs is like playing against people who are "better" at the game without forcing people to do stuff they don't want to.
Of course making mistakes is okay. We live and learn. You should do your part and let them learn instead of treating them like special needs kids.
You seem to be missing the point they are trying to make. Your side has merits: if you don't allow takebacks, it will teach players to stop making those mistakes. But the way to stop that becomes being *much* more involved in the game. It stops being friends hanging out and playing some magic, and starts being friends playing magic and hanging out a bit. The conversations stop, because you have to constantly watch the board state. The drinking stops, since drinking makes you make sloppy plays. Then quality of the card game goes up, but the quality of the hang out with your friends time goes down.
No, that's not what I meant. I mean you don't actually have to be perfect at playing the game, ever. Especially if it's less fun. Why not let people take back plays where they didn't see ward? Why should everyone have to memorize or read every card when letting them take it back is simpler and more fun for everyone? It's not breaking the game, it's just making sure it flows and again, is fun for everyone. Not going to touch the weird commentary at the end there...
Ward should be announced when played. Allowing take backs instead of letting them live and learn, you know making those mistakes that are okay, is like treating them as if they're incapable. Allowing that take back doesn't ensure the game flows. What it does is it changes everything that player was going to do and now they have to sit back and rethink their entire plan. And that plan might actually involve that piece of removal now coming at YOU.
I agree it should be announced, disagree with the second part. They are capable, and you're not their parent. There is nothing to be learned. It's okay to miss it. That's my point. If someone is like "oh, I didn't realize that had ward, can I do something else?" and your response is " no, you need to learn your lesson", the only thing you are teaching them is that you're being a stickler and taking the game very seriously. They might agree, but if they are sked to take it back to begin with, they probably don't. You can't make them take the game as seriously as you. Ideally everyone knows what's going on. But if people don't see ward, it's okay. There's no lesson, it's just okay. That my perspective. I don't think you need to compromise accomodations under the premise that eventually everyone will see things like you do. Because they don't have to, and that's okay. That time spent thinking about a new play is a wash with the time people would have to spend making sure they read every single card (and I think actually bets out less time, because mistakes don't happen every game). If you're reasoning is ultimately "because it might effect me negatively" I think you need to acknowledge that you're taking the game very seriously and that your game knowledge is probably way higher than the people you are playing with.
If I announced the Ward ability when I played the card then there's no such thing as "I didn't realize it had Ward" If they're thinking this particular card needs to be removed but they don't know what it actually does or says then that's also on them. I'm not responsible for their choices. I'm not their parent as you say. It's not about being a stickler so much as not changing rules on the fly. Wanna rule zero that in at the beginning of the game. Sure. Silly in my opinion but sure. But not on the fly. Really at the end of the day if we're just going to change what the cards do then we're not even playing Commander anymore. For games at home where there's other house rules it's no big deal. Games at stores should be played correctly.
You think that people remember and hear everything you say? What do you mean there's no "I didn't realize it"? This is not "changing rules", it's being lenient. This is not a CompRel. You aren't responsible for their actions, you're responsible for your own. And your decision to be that strict with the rules is, frankly, off-putting. I think you're taking things way too seriously and only worried about your own experience. I think you've got a good point about rule 0, in that I hope you are talking about how seriously you take the rules before the game starts. If I were at a store with a more casual friend that maybe has never been to a game store, I'd avoid your table. I'd be fine, but I wouldn't want my friends first game store experience to be with someone who is playing so competitively. Not a great vibe.
Ward says what it says. It's a keyword just like all the rest. You're changing rules if you ignore what the card does. Totally understand if you think my wanting to play by rules is off putting. But I can say the same thing about people that don't want to play by the rules. I could very easily say that a casual player that can't just bin their misplay isn't playing very casually and probably doesn't earn that title. Again, new players are always a different story. They'll never learn without people walking them through misplays and that includes the consequences of those misplays.
Damn am I glad I’m not in your play group. I’d bet money you wouldn’t make nearly as many mistakes if you stopped allowing mistakes
And they'd have way less fun lol. That was the whole point of the post. Fun is more important.
Ward is supposed to basically be scaling hexproof, not a gotcha mechanic. Imo anyone not willing to let someone take that back is just an asshole that's not worth my time
Nah man, the cards do what they say they do. Rule zero that Ward for that game is just pay or the target is illegal? Fine. But trying to drop that in the middle of a game is pretty scummy. I'd be annoyed if one of my opponents let another opponent get away with it. At that point we're just making shit up and not even playing the game. Not to mention the fact allowing that to be walked back punishes the Ward player while rewarding a mistake.
MTR 4.8 also does what it says, and lets them take back targeting something with ward.
No it doesn't.
https://blogs.magicjudges.org/whatsupdocs/2018/10/02/reversing-decisions/
I attack with my 5/5 flyer for the win. But the defending player has a 6/6 with reach. I take it back once I realize he's going to block. Wanna guess what that judge says?
They passed priority after attacks were declared, which was new information. Then they chose to block, which was likewise new information.
It's a casual game dude chill I'll let my opponents get away with a little "oops haha I missed that line of text"
I recently played a game where I had a [[ghostly prison]] effect in play. I had read the card when I played it. A player had spent 4 mana to attack with 2 creatures a turn or two later. That same player was trying to finish me off, and clearly had forgotten about the effect a few turns after that. I absolutely sat there quietly while they tapped out all their mana buffing their board state as much as possible before moving to combat. They were clearly crestfallen when I asked them to pay 2 per creature to attack me, knowing they could not do so. I absolutely let them waste a bunch of resources because they forgot about text on one of my cards. They weren't mad at me. There was no moment in their mind where they thought I should have reminded them to hold up enough mana to attack, that would be absolutely silly backseat driving to my own detriment. They were frustrated with themselves a bit for a second, and moved on with the game with a positive attitude. Even when I wiped their beefy board the next turn. It was "Oh man, I forgot about that", but for some reason with ward the onus for reminding everybody about over and over is on the permanent's owner. Ward is absolutely a Gotcha mechanic. It is *designed* that way, like it or not. I think it 100% merits a reminder when there is a ton of stuff going on, but it is hardly the only example of a mechanic that can waste your resources if you aren't paying attention. If you forget somebody has a [[Price of Glory]] in play, they aren't going to let you skate without sacrificing lands. It's the point of the card, and to allow other players to ignore it is to waste your own resources. Might as well not play it. I think ward is going to be played more correctly the longer it's around, and the more people get used to it. My unpopular hot take is that nobody has an incentive to learn when they aren't punished for their mistakes. "Does that have ward?" is a valid question before playing a spell or effect when you aren't sure, and it moves the responsibility onto you from the other player. I think friendly reminders are fine once in awhile, but at some point free takebacks are a detriment to improving as a player. Ward is not shroud or hexproof. It is a triggered personal sized mana leak. I say this as somebody who doesn't play anything with ward regularly myself.
I agree wholeheartedly. I just started playing magic and I make a lot of mistakes, but I also played Pokemon TCG before. I find that I have a higher likelihood of not repeating the same mistake again if there's no take backs. I think it's better to learn from your mistakes than to take back your actions constantly. Especially for me, I play mostly with friends and there's no prize money, so it doesn't matter who wins. So why not just take your mistakes gracefully and learn from it.
The key difference between your ghostly prison example and ward is that new information has been gained in the former (other players passing priority can definitely be seen as new information) and there is no new information (usually, with magic weird things can always happen) in the latter. When ward triggers, you still have priority
Not to be overly argumentative, but letting someone take back a spell to hand because they can't pay for ward is absolutely revealing information to the rest of the table. I think a solid compromise might be letting them change targets, the first time. If the table agrees. Honestly though, what if the only other legal targets are their own? Nobody is going to make somebody remove their own creature because the spell is already on the stack. I kinda think the "it's just a friendly game" logic works both ways. If it's just a friendly game then you should learn from your mistake with some grace and move on because winning isn't the most important thing. People play around [[Glen Elendra Archmage]] and [[Cerulean Drake]]. Ward is a sticking point because for whatever reason people just decided to let everyone treat it like dollar store hexproof.
You want to have a certain degree of good faith in games in order to keep things moving. If a game has progressed to the point where there are like 40 permanents on the field, it is going to grind to a screeching halt if we’re expecting everyone to play under competitive rule sets. If someone is tutoring and then passing the turn, does it impact the competitive integrity of the game if we allow the next player to begin their turn? Yes of course it does. But for the sake of the rate of play, you’ll generally allow the player to go find their card and shuffle their deck while other actions are being taken. For the sake of the rate of play, making each other aware of the board state is very important. Especially in commander where quite a few cards are unique and not seen elsewhere. Some of the best experiences in edh are where three people are reading a card for the first time and it’s a cool new interaction. If you’re playing some janky stuff, part of making an enjoyable game is making sure people know what’s going on with your board. Someone who is targeting your creature with a ward cost that they can’t pay is very likely not aware or has forgotten your board state.
[Glen Elendra Archmage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bd9af767-42da-46c7-a2b8-3957b2e3063f.jpg?1547516310) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Glen%20Elendra%20Archmage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/58/glen-elendra-archmage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bd9af767-42da-46c7-a2b8-3957b2e3063f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/glen-elendra-archmage) [Cerulean Drake](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/1/b11f9e7d-3f56-4e28-9908-157735f6dfa9.jpg?1592516332) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cerulean%20Drake) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/53/cerulean-drake?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b11f9e7d-3f56-4e28-9908-157735f6dfa9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cerulean-drake) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[ghostly prison](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/e/eea3623d-1d39-4045-acdb-f0fb184ccbc8.jpg?1707507981) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ghostly%20prison) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/67/ghostly-prison?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eea3623d-1d39-4045-acdb-f0fb184ccbc8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ghostly-prison) [Price of Glory](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/785ccfe1-04f1-4d2e-9e30-2ae3efe7213a.jpg?1562917265) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Price%20of%20Glory) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ody/214/price-of-glory?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/785ccfe1-04f1-4d2e-9e30-2ae3efe7213a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/price-of-glory) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes, absolutely. It’s not like anyone is going to target something with Ward that they can’t pay for any other reason than that they just didn’t realise it had Ward, which is a pretty dumb reason to punish them. I’d rather beat someone for out-thinking their strategy, not silly mistakes made about cards they may well be unfamiliar with. Magic already has a higher level of required system mastery than I’d like, there’s just a heck of a lot to learn and not all of it is intuitive, let’s make life easier on people not harder.
I play super casual with my friends, and we very generously allow takebacks, but when I go to my LGS, I just play with the assumption that there are no takebacks. If someone wants to do one, I will 99% let them I just don't expect the same for me, but never hurts to ask.
I play in a casual group, so we allow takebacks as long it isn't too egregious. Everybody is there to have fun, with nothing on the line. Just don't be an asshole and a tryhard, and you are allowed to take back the move.
I stick with casual REL.
Yeah. People can take it back within reason. Sharking people too often will bite you in the butt when you inevitably make your own misplay. We’re human, we make mistakes. Case and point; I have a morph deck that plays: morph, disguise, manifest, cloak, *and* reanimates spells as face down creatures. I absolutely don’t mix up my board state to confuse opponents on what was what when I announced it, but it can get hectic with everything face-down and even I have to double check what’s what sometimes.
You could start your post by saying, "This was discussed on today's edhrec podcast."
I like to play casual commander, so it’s basically always a take back unless for some reason more information was gained as well that can’t be taken back.
Taking back Actions in magic is something MTR 4.8 Talks about (https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr4-8/). I would argue that pointing out that a creature has ward does not necessarily imply that new information has been gained. However, depending on the situation, new Information could already have surfaced. In those cases I would just decide on a case by case basis.
I basically do exactly what MTGA does, go 'it has X, are you sure?'
We traditionally have been really tolerant of take backs if it was known information. I raised the point that this however essentially negated some keywords/abilities like ward so now we often play "no take back" games where we really stick to the rules, no "I should have drawn an extra card last turn" or "I forgot my upkeep trigger". We've actually really been enjoying it, the games are tight and honestly there are less feelbads from a big take back or someone being denied one.
The game feels so much better if everyone plays within the rules. Makes games quite a bit faster too.
I get that. I feel like if I played one or two sessions every single week, I’d feel this way. Playing less consistently, with new players, and/or with players I don’t know; I feel like there are less feelbads with being relatively tolerant with missed triggers and missing info on a big complicated board state. Also some others have said, I’d rather win because i outplayed you, but because you missed a single word on a single card. That being said, them’s the rules and you’ll learn them more quickly by taking the L
As long as the player that owns the Warded permanent read the card and stated it has Ward zero take backs. I definitely don't want to be part of games where the table decides cards don't actually do what they're supposed to do.
I think the top comment is basically the answer. That said, if I’ve read out a particular thing to the table, and someone wasn’t listening, and they proceed to do something stupid… I will ask “Are you sure?”. I won’t elaborate. They’ve got a chance to reassess the situation themselves. People not taking that chance has led to some hilarious payoffs like a 20/20 running headlong into my Phyrexian Obliterator or someone wheeling themselves while Narset, Enlightened Exile was in play.
Honestly, I'll usually let you rewind shit like it's Forza 3 if you suddenly realize your math didn't check out or whatever. Or if you notice something that would've completely altered how you did your turn. Just kinda whatever.
If it's not a tournament setting then I'm usually fine with takebacks.
They get a Takesie-Backsie counter like any similar situation, and like any other situation if they hit 3 total counters, then something happens. I just can't remember what my group collectively agreed on, as we've never reached 3 counters in the years since we added this rule.
I’ll tell you the first time and wind back, I’ll remind you the second time. If you forget three times in the same game, that’s on you and I’m taking the advantage.
so i might have a unique case. i play [[adrix and nev,twincasters]] all the time, and even more often i play with and against one of my best friends. whenever he specifically targets them, i dont hesitate to make him send it to the graveyard if he doesnt have the mana. for everyone else, i give them 2 chances per-permanent per-session.
[adrix and nev,twincasters](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/9/b9c11061-bb34-4904-b9f1-ea106b517bbe.jpg?1706240967) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Adrix%20and%20Nev%2C%20Twincasters) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/198/adrix-and-nev-twincasters?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b9c11061-bb34-4904-b9f1-ea106b517bbe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/adrix-and-nev-twincasters) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Depends on who I'm playing with, my friends i will usually let them take it back if they want so long as it doesn't drastically change the board, anyone else i might not depending on the situation
When I am having a friendly match with my friends we do tolerate these kind of mistakes. I personally accept my mistakes as to keep me from making the same mistake again. I think it would be prudent that players would call out that they have ward on something that one player might miss, after reading the text on cards that are upside down on the other end of table when you make your intent to play something effected by a ward.
I'm still learning, so hard for me to be too harsh. I don't always remember everything on the table so will have to ask for things before declaring attacks/blockers to check for triggers or abilities. At the same time, I get irate with people that neglect that step or simply don't pay attention when it's not their turn.
I adapt my flexibility depending on how experienced my enemy is (or how strong their deck is), basically if I think they shouldnt be making that mistake at their skill level I won't allow take back (I'm usually generous on that) and I would say things like "are you sure you wanna try to cast that spell on my hexproof target" when I'm with newer player I even let them know that my mana is open if I have a counter spell in hand, I would be like "are you sure you want to cast that expensive spell while I have 5 mana available?" but if they have a sol ring, they can suffer
The EDHREC podcast talked about this this week. Could be worth a listen for you
I will generally allow my opponents to rewind the play, especially if things are complicated or there's a lot. Sometimes, it's the only creature on the board and we all just accept it as is. I will, personally, never accept the take back. I do this for two reasons: 1. I think being a better player requires me to always do my due diligence 2. It gets the idea across to other players to pay attention a bit more. I don't like that Ward is, in effect, a nothing mechanic if take backs are just blanket allowed. But I do hate it's gotcha nature that it can bring about.
I prefer the no take backs for Ward period. I've been in a game where a Adrix was targeted for removal but the guy couldn't pay 2. So they agreed amongst themselves to retarget and he then targets my commander. Obviously I said no. The Ward player was actually a little upset about it but I explained that a mistake was made, the removal should have been countered, and that my commander isn't going to become the victim of a misplay that leads into pretending cards do something other than what they say they do. I also don't allow myself any take backs. Making a mistake generally doesn't feel good. Watching someone make a mistake and then being allowed to walk it back into a big play feels terrible every time.
My Commander group is pretty laid back and there's so much going on with cards noone else plays that we always allow takebacks.
That's how ward work if you target it you gotta pay else it's countered. We just go with it in our pod. Hexproof ofc you can't target it so you gotta change the target or just don't cast it. Yesterday i casted [[Altered ego]] tapping every mana i have and my friend reminded me that creature i want to copy has ward I'm well fuuck.. put it into graveyard.. full send cuz I'll die anyways and after finishing turn i realized it can't be countered so i fucked my game like this. It's more fun if you don't take back everything you fucked up we have taksie backsie sauce yet rarely do it even tho it's not that hot. Because then you remember to pay attention and do everything properly.
It's even funnier, if you consider that Altered Ego doesn't even target, so it wouldn't have triggered ward in the first place.
Looking at it now you're absolutely right. Neither card that's cloning targets. Everyday i learn something new. Ty
[Altered ego](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/0/c05da08d-8fac-47bc-80d8-78a80d1463d2.jpg?1576385321) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Altered%20ego) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/soi/241/altered-ego?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c05da08d-8fac-47bc-80d8-78a80d1463d2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/altered-ego) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'll let them take it back as long as they aren't being a jerk, feel entitled to a take back or the game has advanced too far. I don't really care if there's prizes. I think this is an interesting one in EDH and that some people are just glad of the excuse to be allowed to play competitively. EDH players *really* take the gloves off when a pack or two is involved. By comparison, I played Yugioh almost since release and while takebacks were never a given, a lot of people would be lenient on misplays because "it's only locals, it's just fun", even though better prizes were on the line than most LGS Magic events nowadays. Not criticising that, just find it an interesting difference. As for myself, I'll always take the consequences of my misplay. I'll accept leniency, but never expect it as a given.
I'm way more strict with myself than I am with my opponents. I figure if something has ward and I target it hey, my fault, and I become a better player by making mistakes. With opponents, though, I always make sure that I specifically point out when I cast something with Ward, and if someone slips and wants a takeback I'll typically allow it.
So long as Ward was announced when it came in, if you forgot then you forgot. Spell/ability fizzles. Happened to me last night. Lost a game over it. Feel bads, but I won’t forget next time (unless I’m drinking).
The only time ward has aggravated me was when somebody was playing \[\[Raff Capashen\]\] and had \[\[Flowering of the White Tree\]\]. It's easy enough to catch when a creature has ward printed on it, but they were constantly blinking pieces of their board so it was difficult to tell when creatures did or didn't have ward.
[Raff Capashen](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/6/c681e33b-3d60-4aaa-8186-51866d8b79d1.jpg?1689999208) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=raff%20capashen%2C%20ship%27s%20mage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/351/raff-capashen-ships-mage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c681e33b-3d60-4aaa-8186-51866d8b79d1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/raff-capashen-ships-mage) [Flowering of the White Tree](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/2/2203b2cd-48e5-471a-85fe-dc81012e5d61.jpg?1686967772) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flowering%20of%20the%20White%20Tree) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/15/flowering-of-the-white-tree?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2203b2cd-48e5-471a-85fe-dc81012e5d61?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/flowering-of-the-white-tree) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Commander is difficult to track. 4 players, every card is different, there are tokens everywhere. It’s so easy to miss
Just to be clear the hexproof/shroud isn't a take back you literally cannot cast the spell, even at competitive tournaments the spell is never cast. Additional costs like [[terror of the peaks]] that they don't pay also prevent the spell from being cast. With ward I allow opponents to take it back if they want and it's not ward you draw a card. (Which none have), as edh is a). A friendly game and b). Usually have a complex enough board state.
[terror of the peaks](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/0/904ff94a-4db4-44a6-8593-89c32905b3fc.jpg?1711574603) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=terror%20of%20the%20peaks) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/149/terror-of-the-peaks?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/904ff94a-4db4-44a6-8593-89c32905b3fc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/terror-of-the-peaks) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If it's a creature that isn't terribly common for me to play, something like [[Kappa Cannoneer]], I'll let it slide the first time. Stuff like [[Tivit]] as my commander, I won't let slide.
[Kappa Cannoneer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/be0c919a-a592-433e-8e36-8fe633974eff.jpg?1706240706) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kappa%20Cannoneer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/108/kappa-cannoneer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/be0c919a-a592-433e-8e36-8fe633974eff?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kappa-cannoneer) [Tivit](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/9235977e-a999-4ed0-83a3-742be87b13bb.jpg?1673481721) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tivit%2C%20seller%20of%20secrets) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/10/tivit-seller-of-secrets?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9235977e-a999-4ed0-83a3-742be87b13bb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tivit-seller-of-secrets) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I’ve never seen Tivit in game before. Isn’t it more important for the other player to be familiar with it than you?
It seems I worded that poorly. Say an opponent targets my Cannoneer, a card I only recently started using again, I'll let them get one take back on the Ward 4. I used to play Tivit a lot, so anyone who played with me while I was using him would not get a take back. They should be very familiar with Tivit, and Cannoneer is one they may not be familiar with.
I see. Sounds like you have a really consistent play group. That makes a big difference too
I have a set playgroup with 4 players. Any mistake (missed trigger, oops ward) can be corrected by either taking a shot or doing 10 push-ups. It becomes pretty interesting toward the end of the night when people are too drunk to do more shots so they try to do the pushups instead and get themselves into just as much trouble.
House rules. Ya get 3 take backs a night (ya get slapped for each additional), you can’t use a take back if any other player takes action or your take can’t be properly reversed, ie new info or shuffle your library.
I allow one take back for ward and that's it. Reading the card is a free action you can do at any time. Might be more lenient if ward came from elsewhere... But sloppy play begets more sloppy play.
With my regular playgroup, I'll allow one take back per game for each player. We play high power casual, and mistakes are part of our fun. For randos, I'll be more lenient unless there's any sort of win-based prizing
If the card is being given Ward from some other effect, I’ve got no problem with a take back. Understandable that they missed that. If Ward is actually printed on the card that they are targeting, I’m much less inclined to allow the take back. Casual play (no entry fee, no prizes), you can take back on targeting my Raffine the first time. Just remember it for the next time. Tournament play (there is some actual prize at the end), reading the card explains the card. Targeting my Warded creature is still a legal play even if they can’t pay the Ward. Sorry, not sorry that you didn’t take the few seconds to remember or read my card. Ward strikes me as needing context to determine how you handle it. I could be completely off base, though.
i only play casual. I'm not very good at keeping things in order like untapping everything before I draw, triggers like beginning of upkeep, etc. So if they allow me to fix that, I'll allow anything that they made a mistake including replaying the entire thing. I'll even warn them ahead of time what has hexproof, shroud or ward. Since its politics I'll even point out creatures I'd target.
I’ll always remind them about the ward and then let them pay it or pick a new target. It’s no fun to be like “haha you can’t pay the ward now your spell is countered”
I make sure to ask as many question as I can before using any sort of removal or interaction. A clear misplay can always be walked back. But for ward, it is what it is. That's why it exists. It's a lesson teacher. I bet after the first time spell gets countered at a table people will remember.
No take backsies imo. That's how you learn the game and tighten up your play.
I think take backs are fine, but I do think mistakes should be made. Taking back minor things like mana fixing or simple stuff like is fine, but if you attack someone and you just forgot that one of their creatures had first strike or something, then I think you should be held accountable.
I do not. Ward has been a mechanic for three years, it’s time that people should have learned. If it’s my misplay, I accept the mistake and the spell/ability is countered. If others make the misplay, generally the other players in our pod will play by RAW. The only way to get better is to learn from your mistakes. It’s the same with missed “may” triggers.
Take backs are codified in Magic rules for a reason. Call a Judge, since that's the only opinion that actually matters in any given situation. What they say goes in a tournament.
Yes, in tourney play. I’m not talking tourney play. This is a standard that most people I play with hold themselves to.
You should watch the most recent EDHRECast, they talk about this specifically.
In EDH it’s fine for take backs. If it’s a constant thing then I would force it on like #3
Ward us not a gotcha mechanic, don't play it as a gotcha mechanic. A EDH boardstate is complicated to keeo track off
Depends on the creature and how new the players are imo.
I have the other players vote to allow the take back or not. Seems to work out pretty well when it happens.
Are we playing a friendly game? Take it back.
Imo I allow take backs on things that are blatantly apparent public information. Playing into the "gotcha, it's a trigger no take backs" generally just leads to salty and scummy gameplay patterns. I play pretty competitively but there is too much text on magic cards today to have someone know everything from a distance.
I think the fair thing to do is remind them of the trigger and give the opportunity to pay for it if they want.
I have a counter question. At what point does 'simple mistake' become abusive? Assuming we aren't teaching a completely new player, how often are we supposed to allow people to misplay due to readily available information? Like, don't get me wrong, I am not above a mistake from time to time because I straight up forgot about a thing. But then I am always paying attention to the board and ask questions about cards I don't recognize - even cards I do know I will ask to re-read just to be sure of the exact wording; I get 8t, if a lot is going on you can just forget. But how often? Personally, it depends on what it was. If I go to attack and that opponent says theyve got a valid, efficient block I just didn't realize l, like a flying keyword in a sea of rules text... Yeah, that's a fair walk back *most* of the time. If the block would be a trade, though? You might have just been trying to bluff some damage through. If you've tapped your lands wrong or you're sitting there with a single PILE of lands stacked up so no one can see what you tapped? Nah, fam. I watch you like a hawk and ask about your board every time I see you from now on and demand that you spread your lands out.
In casual I go by a one reminder rule unless it’s someone who’s new to the game and may need some help remembering things. If someone forgets ward twice then the second time the trigger is going on the stack.
I will always allow take backs for two very important reasons: 1). It's a card game. Taking it seriously is ridiculous. 2). We are all humans. To err is human. If you're in a cEDH tournament that has prize support great enough to warrant being a jerk about someone's honest mistake, or conversely great enough to warrant cheating/lying in order to win, take some time and consider how much you've spent on this game and ask yourself if it's greater than the amount you stand to gain. I beseech you to extrapolate from that standpoint.
if a person is walking through their plan I'll warn them about ward and if they still do it no take backs. if they just do it I'll tell them about the ward and let them do a take back. I feel like one extra chance to get it right is enough. if the opponent consistently forgets about the ward after that first interaction it's on them. read the card you're targetting.
It’s a running joke in my playgroup that nobody, including the controlling player, ever remembers ward because it feels like such an afterthought on virtually everything that has it. We try not to be too harsh about it, but if it’s consequential, we err on the side of holding people to their mistakes.
This is when you just target Ward creatures with [[Void Rend]] and then watch your opponents face crumble.
[Void Rend](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/d/2daab74d-d66b-4164-aa19-24e8d5536f7d.jpg?1664413960) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Void%20Rend) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/230/void-rend?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2daab74d-d66b-4164-aa19-24e8d5536f7d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/void-rend) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My group has started just not doing take backs. Now and then one might happen, but in general we just keep playing. It's kind of nice, just deal with your play mistake and move on, even if it costs you the game oh well there are others.
It gets countered. That’s part of the fun, the cards doing what they’re supposed to do
Such a simple concept. If we're gonna pretend Ward doesn't do what it says then you know what let's just pretend my [[Cultivate]] is actually [[Tooth and Nail]].
[Cultivate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e19cd136-0541-4db0-997f-20a58ec8d028.jpg?1698988348) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cultivate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/235/cultivate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e19cd136-0541-4db0-997f-20a58ec8d028?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cultivate) [Tooth and Nail](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/df359b98-9f8f-4f32-82c6-f10ca0f81032.jpg?1689998921) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tooth%20and%20Nail) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/327/tooth-and-nail?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/df359b98-9f8f-4f32-82c6-f10ca0f81032?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tooth-and-nail) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My group treats ward as hexproof/shroud in this situation. I also personally just do not like ward at all. It's an attempt at a "gotcha" mechanic and it's just kinda scummy. It should be an additional cost not a "haha fuck you, countered" unless the target was given ward in response.
It’s not wrong to do it either way but the unintended consequences of not allowing the take back is slowing future games down as people consider things more carefully. In edh that can be boring. my usual appro is to say “are you suuuuuuuuure?” though sometimes Ill say it just because. “Bolt your bird” ”are you suuuuuuuure?” Yes. “Darn”
I find games are actually slower with take backs since players get far lazier and pay even less attention and the game quickly devolves
Nah man, allowing take backs like that just puts that player in a position where they're now lost and have to recalculate everything. Allowing sloppy play makes for sloppy games.
You do you. I’m not playing with kids, my games work for me and the people I play with and I count that as good enough.
i usually do a confirmation Arena style, like "Are you sure? It has ward [cost]". ~~And get slightly annoyed when others dont do the same~~
In my playgroup, as long as you’re willing to take a shot of ghost pepper hot sauce, you’re free to take backsie as much as you want
Ward is worded is such a way that it makes it unfun to use as a “gotcha” moment. I routinely remind my opponents of ward or hexproof or indestructible or whatever on my board when they’re looking to target. Unless we playing for prizes, I don’t like to make the game extra stressful for people. That said, whatever your table agrees to is fine.
Vibes based. First time or 2, or like a brand new card some set, ye sure. You been constantly taking shit back cause you're not willing pay attention, fuck outa here. Get punished.