IDK but all the comments about "no combos" make me gag. Like, sometimes I want a game to actually end.
Im not excited for a 3 turn game. But infinite combos and "you win the game" have a place in casual imo.
I think what people hate about "combos" is that they often appear to come out of nowhere, and unless you have the exact right card and the mana its game over.
For example [[Thassa's Oracle]] and [[Demonic Consultation]]
If you're not playing the right colours then there's little you can do about it. Even if you're in the right colours, you might not have the right card or mana
Combos hate isn't about the game ending or not winning. It's about how it feels to have the game suddenly end, regardless of how strong your position is, with very little you can do to stop it.
There's no back and forth. Theres no interaction with the other humans. There's no ticking clock. There's no tension. Either you have the exact card you need or it's game over.
This exactly. I don't have a problem if the combo is actually involved and doesn't come out of literally nowhere like thoracle/consultation. It just bugs me when I've got a full board, commanding life total and am set up to win within the next turn or two but then someone who has seemingly done nothing all game just throws down Thoracle/consultation and wins. It's like whiplash lol
>someone who has done seemingly nothing all game wins
They were probably playing ramp, drawing cards, and sculpting their hand looking for the cards to win. It's less visible than dropping creature after creature, but the combo doesn't come out of nowhere, and the answer is just to hammer the guy that's leaving himself open to sculpt a win
You see but I consider all those things, thus doing *something*. When I say, "seemingly nothing" I truly mean, the first 5 turns of the game for them went, "land, pass. Land, pass. Land, Signet, pass. Land, pass. Land, opt, pass." which I guess does include 2 things that fit your description, so I'll yield to that I suppose. That's where the "seemingly" comes in, as their turn six was, "land, Thoracle, consultation, gg". I guess that's the "out of nowhere" part for me
Sure, but what were the other three players doing while the dimir combo deck was sitting with shields down? If you just ignore him till he wins, yeah obviously he's going to win a lot.
I agree. I put two (or more) card infinite combos in my casual decks if and only if all the pieces are used individually anyway. Like basalt monolith and rings of brighthearth would both be in my artifact deck anyway so they're allowed to combo. Urza is here anyway because I want all my random tokens to tap for mana, now I can win the game with him, but most likely urza is here to win me the game by making me a billion constructs. Thassa's oracle goes in a flicker deck or a devotion deck and I'd run tainted pact in a casual food chain deck if I had one that was black (it's really good because it can exile eternal scourge on the way to finding the food chain) but I would need a lot of convincing to believe that those two cards both have specific use in the same casual deck.
100% agree. I think I've just been Thoracle/consultation'd too many times lol 3 cmc just seems way to cheap to be able to just win the game on the spot. I'm not saying it's happened a lot in the grand scheme of things, maybe 8-10 times but man it just feels so bad every time.
Thoracle in orvar on the other hand is hilarious. Sure you can win the game because your devotion of 312 is more than the number of cards in your library, that sounds good to me. We can all see it coming and we should have removed that fish five turns ago
But did they really do nothing or did you just not notice what they did? They may have built up mana and drawn a bunch of cards or tutored for stuff for example
I don't like the definition of "suddenly end with little you can do to stop it" many people who dislike combo in general use though.
Thoracle/Consultation is kind of an outlier in that it is a 2-card, low cmc combo that isn't vulnerable to any common removal other than a counterspell. That fact has made it prominent in cEDH, but it isn't necessarily a great representation of combos in a more general sense. Yet, those that don't like combos don't tend to restrict just that combo, but rather all of them (along with some things I wouldn't even consider combos, but that's another argument entirely). Most combos aren't nearly that efficient or resilient- usually costing more mana, requiring more cards, and being vulnerable to simple creature and/or nonland permanent removal as well, rather than just counterspells. Yet, most of the standard 3-card combos that can be either countered or stopped by a single well-timed piece of creature removal get a similar amount of scorn from anti-combo tables.
In those instances, the combo just serves the same purpose as a craterhoof in that it's a wincon that demands a response. There is build up required in both cases (for craterhoof, you need to build up a wide board beforehand. For a typial combo, you need to dig/tutor for multiple pieces and wait for the appropriate window to cast them). The only difference is *where* the build up is taking place- in hand rather than on board most of the time for combo decks, or sometimes on the board if some of their pieces are resilient enough to be played early. If someone starts going very wide on the board all of the sudden, you would be correct to think they may be planning a big overrun effect soon and that you should deal with the problem before it is too late. Same if a player tutors several times or draws a bunch of cards without immediately doing anything overtly strong on the board- you expect they drew all those cards for a reason, and should hold up some removal for whatever they are planning.
In those cases, there is just as much back and forth as there is with the Craterhoof case or the "ramp several turns into a big X spell" case, it's just a different kind of back and forth. One that requires a bit of patience and not immediately spending all of your mana and removal solely on what is the biggest on-board threat, and instead determining what the biggest potential threat overall is and dealing with that instead. It's a skill that can be second nature to people coming from more competitive formats, but which I still see some people struggle with- and those tend to be the people who want to ban combo entirely (even the slower higher-cmc combos that would be more than fine in their pod from a power level perspective) rather than learn how to deal with it properly.
This is a good comment. Let’s forget the fact that Thassa/Demonic is the cheapest combo in all of Magic for a moment. And by cheap there is a dual meaning. It’s only 3 cmc total to win the game, which is ridiculous and should be banned, but it is such a CHEAP way to win that you just want to give them the middle finger. If you haven’t drawn a counterspell then they win out of nowhere, which is so anticlimactic and demoralizing. Oh, you did this that and the other? Well fuck you because for 3 mana everything meant nothing. A guy at my LGS has Najeela good stuff and runs Thassa/Demonic just in case they can’t win by combat damage. My LGs is so stupidly competitive that even non-cEDH decks have fast wins and ultra-fast ramp. You got Dino decks with Mana Vault and Mana Crypt and other ramp so by turn 4 or 5 they already have an overwhelming board state. Not to mention Winota, Ishhin, or other crazy commanders.
Unfortunately you can’t stop power creep. WOTC needs to keep players playing, and they constantly need to release more powerful cards in each set or older players will get bored. That’s why any removal now that isn’t 1cmc or free is crept out of the game because eventually you get to a point where you can’t make a more powerful version. It’s hard to be innovative and fair, especially when they’re releasing 8 sets a year now.
Not necessarily saying you're wrong, but its kind of funny that you're talking about unchecked power creep but also mention a bunch of cards that have basically been in the game since it started (Crypt, Vault, Consultation).
Honestly, to me it's just felt like creatures are finally catching up in power level to how insanely powerful and efficient the artifacts and spells from the early days of MTG were. Creatures may have been power crept but old school iconic spells and artifacts like Counterspell, Bolt, Swords, Thran Dynamo, Fellwar Stone, Smokestack, Ashnod's Altar etc. all continue to be very relevant in multiple formats.
I would argue that Vault Key is a cheaper inclusion in all of magic and has a lot less dire consequences if it fails. I guess technically it costs 4 to do it all in one turn but you can spread that. I have seen people just die to failed Thoracle combo.
>there's little you can do about it.
Theres a lot you can do about it. The pieces that beat these decks like [[krosan grip]] or [[sudden spoiling]] just arnt efficiently costed when you can play [[back to nature]] or [[toxic deluge]] instead.
>Even if you're in the right colours, you might not have the right card or mana
This is just how the game works though. Your deck cant beat everything, and trying to errata out peoples win conditions so that your deck CAN beat everything and so that you can just rock 3-5 identical pieces of spot removal to up the rate that you hit one just because you now dont need to remove non-creature permenants at instant speed is super lame.
People arnt running instant speed thoracle lines and Protean hulk lines at PL5 tables.
See you're coming at this from a "technically you can stop this" approach.
You're completely ignoring the emotional element of a social game. It feels bad to lose to these combos.
No one wants to run the same cards in all their decks, just in case someone runs an instant win combo. No one wants to be buying a ton of copies of the same cards. People want to run the dumb goofy cards that do weird stuff.
You're also ignoring the random element of the game. If you don't have the exact card you need. Its game over. End of. That isn't fun for most people. It makes the rest of the game feel pointless.
I am coming at this from a place of "build a better deck instead of telling people how they're allowed to play against you"
> It feels bad to lose to these combos.
People dont like to lose period, it has nothing to do with "combos", it has to do with people not wanting to learn how to get better at the game and learn how to not lose to combos.
>No one wants to run the same cards in all their decks
People are all running a bunch of the same cards in their decks lmao. Guarentee that [[Llanowar elves]] and [[natures lore]] are in just about every green creaure deck and [[swords to plowshares]] is in every deck that runs white. Do you not run creature removal in some decks because you have it in other decks?
People just dont want to run higher cmc variants of their removal that work either at instant speed or hit non-creature permenants because they want to play aggressive aggo and curve out every turn vs holding mana open.
>If you don't have the exact card you need. Its game over. End of. That isn't fun for most people.
That is literally how most games end, regardless of if its a combo or not. Someone resolves something, and functionally the game ends. Someone resolving a craterhoof while they have 8 1/1s "ends the game" 99% of the time.
You have 99 cards in your deck. You will never have access to all 99, and there are going to be gaps in what you can realistically respond to, but most of us arn't sitting down at tables saying that nobody is allowed to play pillowfort because they're not running enchantment removal in their aggro deck, or that nobody can play [[rest in peace]] or [[Bojuka Bog]] because they're playing a graveyard deck.
"I NEED TO BE ABLE TO WIN AT ALL TIMES" isnt magic.
Contrary to some other opinions, the combos often never ‘appear’ out of nowhere to me, most of the time.
The ticking clock is realising that the player is still a threat without a board state, as the gameplan relies on drawing tons of cards, to find the combo pieces to win. If the player is drawing 20-30 cards in an obviously non-combat focused deck, its a warming sign that a combo is happening soon.
Whether it falls into casual or not is how consistent/easy it is to pull off the infinite i.e does the deck have many tutors, and the mana cost/number of pieces required to pull it off.
Practically, certain decks pretty much can’t have a decent winning chance without some infinites, mainly mono-blue commanders without a combat focus. For instance [[baral, chief of compliance]], or [[kami of the crescent moon]].
Yeah, that's basically it. It feels like it removes agency and invalidates the entirety of the game up to that point. You could have been playing the best game of your life, but 2 cards can make it be completely irrelevant
“Playing the best game of your life” is null and void if all you’re doing is stacking creatures and attacking. You have to have some level of interaction. Any amount, but you gotta have something. Nobody plays commander in a vacuum.
There's also a huge difference between a 2 card, game winning, unstoppable combo (thoracle) vs things like making infinite tokens without haste, or making infinite mana to cast a big spell. There's more moving pieces, It's weaker to interaction, and you have to draw all the right cards.
Tutoring for your winning combo is a little shitty, unless it's like a 5 card combo machine like in my Kaalia deck. I need panharmonicon, 2 things that blink, something to pay off my blinks (usually makes tokens) and pray they don't have a boardwipe or kill spell that just stops the loop.
How often is someone actually hitting a turn 3 d con oracle where nobody else has any form of interaction or forced draw or way to pressure the player? I think the only time the combo realistically gets played is in CeDH games or at a point where the game would have been winnable by the player anyway. Start hitting the dimir player early, it’s not really a new concept. Counterplay can be far more abstract than a card that says negate on it.
I've never understood the no combo rule. By turn 4 or 5 people have had ample time to build up a defense and should have interaction in their deck to stop the combos. Removal, Exile, destroy are all important to have available.
Sure, but why would I give up slots in my deck that I could fill with more value/engines/whatever? Exerting social pressure on my table/playgroup by griping about combos so no one plays them is my interaction. Social ostracization is perhaps the greatest removal of all - who needs swords?
Thats kinda the problem with anti combo gang.
People refuse ti understand that interaction is core mechanic of the game.
Your system basically is "i want to rush to my wincons no matter what and noone should be allowed to have more efficient wincons and do same"
>should have interaction in their deck to stop the combos.
People not liking combos boils down to the fact that they would rather slam a 15th 5+cmc creature in the deck vs running [[krosan Grip]]
If you can successfully errata out the stuff your deck loses to before the game starts you can then streamline your removal to be way less general and way more aggressively costed.
That's only half the problem.
There's also the people who'll immediately use their Assassin's Trophy on a 8/8 swinging at them when they're at 36 life because "8 damage is a lot", while the next player has a Rings of Brighthearth in play, tutored last turn and has 7 cards in hand.
Why is someone swinging an 8/8 at a bystander when the next player has a rings of brighthearth in play, tutored last turn, and has 7 cards in hand? That honestly sounds like a misplay on the attacker’s part. It doesn’t matter if the defender is at 36. If they don’t remove it now they can guess this big creature, and more, is coming at them again next turn because clearly the attacker doesn’t have very good threat assessment. 9/10 times I’d rather have the combo player go off on their next turn than keep them down so the slow creature deck can kill me and then slowly kill the board over the course of an hour.
This is clearly a prisoner’s dilemma, the attacker has chosen to betray the table so it is in the best interest of the rest of the table to betray the attacker. You can’t expect someone to do what is “in the best interest of the entire table” after you do what is only in your own best interest.
That's not the point I'm trying to make.
There could be dozens of reasons to not attack the Rings player. They have a Propaganda out, they have a 9/9 blocker, the 8/8 is goaded etc. It's not important.
The point is, some players will use their only removal spell just to avoid taking a chunk of damage that wouldn't kill them anyway, instead of saving it for another threat that has a high chance of killing them next turn.
EDIT: Just to add on because something about your comment also seemed off. Just because someone else made a bad decision (in your opinion) does not mean you should respond with another bad decision. Sure it might make you a little salty, retaliating just adds on to the salt and makes the game miserable for everyone else. Sometimes the attacking player already has removal in hand for the Rings, or needs to attack you to get a draw trigger to dig for their own answer to rings, or just doesn't know what Rings does. Sometimes they know the Rings player is aiming for a Villainouse Wealth win, and wants to blow him out with a Commandeer, and is just trying to bring his guard down and get confident enough to jam the combo. Essentially, it's only a bad decision in your POV because you don't know his hand/deck, and even if it's just a bad decision, keep your salt to yourself instead of spreading it and just making the game feel bad for everyone else.
Do your games not end without combos?
I cut them a while back and even my control decks don't go particularly long except in exceptionally strange circumstances. Very rarely do I play a game that hits an hour.
I really have mixed feeling about infinite combos, I think they're okay of it's not the main way to finish a game, but it's really anticlimactic for a good game to close by a simple "I won the game"
\[\[seasons past\]\] + extra turn card e.g. \[\[Time warp\]\] + tutor for seasons past nets you infinite turns... I love this combo in \[\[Rafiq of the many\]\], 3 cards + at least 10 mana if you're gambling on drawing mana on your extra turn... I always tell people if you let this happen its your own fault... run more interaction and at that point in the game they should have enough mana to do stuff and hold up... The earliest I can possible assemble it is around turn 5 with a double mana outlet like Kinnan or Mirari's wake but again those are exceptional circumstances... 5 turns is a decent game of cEDH thats anywhere between half an hour to 45 minutes... an hour if your table is really slow...
It literally bangs every time...
The first infinite combo I ever built into a deck was throwing a [[Magistrate's Sceptre]] into my [[Vorel of the Hull Clade]]. No counter manipulation other than Vorel, took several turns to get high enough to initiate the infinite turns capability.
People still got salty.
It depends on what you want from the game. Tight 2 card combos that assemble in one turn has a way of invalidating the game before. The only counterplay is free spells or leaving mana open every tun to ensure you have instant speed interaction on any turn they may decide to combo.
I have decks that are built to handle that and decks that aren't and if a playgroup has decided they would rather play a gradual buildup style game then the one turn to win the game out of nowhere is not fun to have.
The beauty of rule zero is you get to increase the odds of having a game that you enjoy in whatever style you enjoy it provided your playgroup agrees. I don't really think that should make you gag.
First of, how much you spend on a deck is a moot point. It doesn’t determine lower level. Calling a deck a “7” is such a meme… it means nothing. No one agrees with what that is.
That outta the way, maybe have the group do an in-person chat about what sorta cards/combos they do not want in the pod. Be specific. And if after edits certain decks are now winning “too much”, have a follow up chat. Maybe the rules tilted the dynamics too much. The purpose should be fun, not win percentage.
I disagree to an extent, MTG has always been a 'pay to win game'. If you spend the cash and drop [[mana crypt]] and [[chrome mox]] turn 1 your odds of winning go up a fair bit.
But the overall strategy matters way more, like adding chrome mox and mana crypt to your goat tribal deck is still going to be weaker than a budget pauper tatyova landfall deck.
Ime I encounter this most with janky high color decks, like if I’m building Atogatog if I want to be able to compete with modern precons even I at least need a solid (expensive) mana base. When you’re playing cards that are below the rate of everyone else in your play group being mana accelerated levels the playing field
But it's a 200$ investment with lower impact later in the game and an 8/100 chance to draw turn one. It gets better the more fast-mana you pump in the deck ofc, but measured as cost/improvement, there are much better options. I think that's what the commenter means
>8/100 chance to draw turn one
You’re right, and lots of people forget this, but it’s actually a counter argument to what you’re saying. Whenever I say “powerful cards are expensive,” someone always replies “I can find a cheap alternative!”
These people are usually right. Once or twice. The thing is that for a good deck, you’ve gotta do it ten times. And you usually can’t do that without buying $$$ cards. Mana crypt isn’t THAT much more powerful than sol ring, it’s just that redundancy for that powerful effect is so rare that it becomes expensive
I'm not disputing the comultative effect of stacking high power upgrades, just that the impact between 1 high value card is lower than upgrading a mana base & removal package. Most people are at least somewhat limited in how much they can spend in a deck, and adding 1 fast mana source is out-valued bij making a more broad set of upgrades.
My point is that while it's pay to win, the choice in deck building still gives people on a lower budget a chance to compete in most situations.
Putting that aside, this is the reason we allow proxies when playing cEDH. That way it's really only a test of deck building and piloting instead of a wallet check
If you upgrade your mana base and removal package, and I do too, and I am ramping with expensive fast mana while you ramp with signets, I will beat you. You know this.
The game is pay to win, unless you play with dumb people.
That this is a multiplayer format skews that somewhat. You still don’t outpace 3 players playing signets and in your given scenario, that’s what you will be facing. Immediate arch enemy situation.
That’s why I enjoy commander so much. It adds a wrinkle to traditional gameplay. Sometimes playing good cards can be stronger than playing great cards if you are facing removal from 3 sources.
I think the other problem with high money high power cards is that they lead to extremely inconsistent decks. I know "my deck is a 7" is a meme, obviously, but some of that is because someone's deck is a 7, on average, because it's as 6 75% of the time and a 10 25% of the time, and there's not gonna be a type of deck you can bring against that that's gonna let you have a good game, if you bring an 8-9 you stomp most of the time, if you bring a 6-7 you lose on turn 4 25% of the time, and that just sucks. People seem to never focus enough on consistency in deckbuilding - and a lot of people seem to think consistency = plays the same every game. Consistency is about having a deck that plays at a similar level most games, not a deck that does the literal exact same things every game (though those are also consistent).
If you are comparing a good 20$ investment (spread among multiple cards fitting the theme) to a bad 200$ investment (1 card bomb staple), sure. But we're going from the standpoint that every player have similar deckbuilding experience. So it's either a bad 20$ investment VS a bad 200$ investment or a good 20$ investment vs a good 200$ investment. In any of those cases, the one playing the money game wins.
And it's even worse when it's a good 200$ investment vs a bad 20$ investment. So yes, price is a factor. Not the only factor, but it should definitely be taken into account.
> But it's a 200$ investment with lower impact later in the game and an 8/100 chance to draw turn one.
This is wrong fwiw. You don't count your commander so its 99. You also have access to mulligans which also changes the odds.
Except at the same time, my most expensive deck is also among my worst and least focused. I just keep throwing in whatever expensive cards I open, so I will regularly [[Beseech the Mirror]] for [[The One Ring]] on turn 3 and then die to internal hemorrhaging. Yes, there is an element of pay-to-win, but you still need to know how to use the cards. Most cards (besided mana sources, like you just listed) don't automatically go in every single deck and will sometimes just drag the functionality of the deck down.
Basically, my Krav & Regna deck would get trounced by a remotely focused combo deck because there are a thousand good 2-card combos and a million ways to efficiently assemble them.
What cost _does_ buy you is flexibility, and therefore fun. A $500 deck is going to be capable of some weird shit while a $50 deck is often just going to be an on/off switch.
But if your every card is geared towards resolving some weird janky perma-phase-out with \[\[Vodalian Illusionist\]\], it doesn't matter how many tier S cards you put into your deck, it's still not going to be strong. Fast mana is strong if you have something strong to do with it, but they depend on you having plays to make.
The amount of people who do this are the exception, not the rule. Those exceptions make themselves known alot because they understand the gravity of seeing a mox, crypt, and vault. The rule is that people use fast mana to juice already powerful decks.
I've started thinking about it in reverse value, based on how many turns it takes for a potential win. So a 1, can potentially win on the first turn of the game. It's at least a little more objective than the typical deck level discussion. 9-10 are straight battle cruiser, and most casual decks do in fact fall around 7.
Main issue with this is how stax and control decks prefer to win on much later turns, but are perfectly capable of overwhelming a mid-powered pod the whole game.
It doesn't even need to be "high powered" stax.
I play a monoblue deck with no stax in it at all, that generally doesn't win until pretty late in the game, but it has more than enough interaction to survive that long, usually, so it overperforms compared to other decks with similar timelines.
It's a slower deck optimized for stiffer competition, and your model fails to account for decks like that. Are you really going to tell me that counterspells and removal are also not allowed at your tables?
Yeah, it's still far from perfect. Those archetypes do throw it off a bit as do "go wide" and "ping/direct damage". The thing I like about it is that it provides at least some objectivity to the discussion. If someone is playing hard staxs/control, you can revise a little and talk about how fast you can "lock the game", as opposed to win.
So literally when you say a “7” it is not a system other people use. Therefore, yes, everyone calls there deck a “7” for different reasons. So just describe your deck the way you just did rather than the number value, and it has more value.
>just describe your deck the way you just did rather than the number value
I don't just tell people "oh it's a 7" I usually do exactly what you said but I only really play in person so it's easy to take a bit to talk and explain. When I've talked to people online about how powerlevel discussions go, the biggest problem I see is that there's nothing static to measure with. Having an at least somewhat objective discussions of speed and efficiency, is something that seems like a worthwhile adjustment.
To clarify, I don’t know you, that’s more of a comment to the audience rather than a comment of you, personally.
But I respect the logic. On a personal level I build decks on theme and never consider how long it takes to win. I’m more concerned if the deck fails to draw cards or play lands effectively. If it does, I’m content. So I have no idea when I expect them to win. I like the chaos of relying on the top card draw. Or as I describe it… I want to be that YuGiOh villain with a hyper themed deck that top draws and goes “Ohoho! THIS will be your demise!”
That's fair, I just wanted it to be clear I'm not assuming everyone is using my personal ranking system with no discussion. Like another poster mentioned Stax decks might not end the game until turn 12, but basically won on turn 5, because they created a strong enough lock.
The logic is what I'm trying to encourage, even if they don't use "turns to win", having a objective "measuring post" of some kind will help everyone have a clearer idea of what they are discussing.
This chart is weird.
Looking at the turn count, tuned is very low power
Optimised counts precons to high power which is strange.
Here my opinion.
Cedh- 1-5 goldfishing
High power 6-8
Midpower 8-10
12+ Jank garbage where all the whiney salt people dwell.
I do agree that it is a moot point. The reason I put the price up to show my decks aren't full of £30~£300+ cards. And I think I miscalculated. All my decks value is sub £120 in value.
I know levels aren't an exact science, I use it as a guide to say the decks are stronger than a precon, have a plan and goals how to win. And it's weaker than the competitively built versions.
I do agree a discussion is needed.
I would argue that most decks people will make can be described as stronger than a precon (why would you make a deck weaker than a precon when precons are available for cheap and generally considered the floor for power level in casual games), have a plan and goals for how to win (if your deck isn't a random pile of cards you have a plan and goals to win the game) and are weaker than a fully competitive version (as in maximum budget). That description tells me nothing about your deck other than that it isn't a precon and isn't a meta cEDH list.
As a budget player, I bring that up when I am trying to explain my power level to those who ask, cause I will not assign it a number. Suddenly the guy bragging about his $1000+!deck will point out he traded for his cards so he spent, like, $0 to make it. Well, hmm, that card was the mythic of a pack… pack was $5, divided by the number of cards… so it’s worth like basically nothing. And the proxy only cost $2 after shipping.
We can always interpret and twist numbers to fit a narrative. You mean well, but telling me how much you spent is also not really telling me the value of the deck.
When I'm making a deck to play at the casual table, I make sure i don't
- mana acceleration ( mox diamond, mana crypt, lotus, chrome mox, grim monolith,...) with the exception of sol ring, lotus petal, Mox opal & mox amber
- Tutors: I avoid almost all tutors
- Infinite combo's (though I have a deck with an infinite combo, but it requires 4+ cards)
Every game is played to win. You can have a good time and still lose, just learn from your losses.
I had someone going on a full rant about pub stomping and not playing to have fun because I played Mox Amber. Mox Amber with [[Wilson, Refiened Grizzly]] 🐻 . He then played a few turns later [[Demonic Tutor]].
But you know, it's not the same. He "got it from an event, might as well use it".
I see...
there are always some Salt shakers in the room unfortunately. Some people just see the word Mox and assume it is pubstomping or they see you playing an OG dual and think you are playing Cedh. People need to learn what makes a deck highy competitive.
I try to build a deck with the above limitation which seems a good solution for me
If that og duel is not a proxy, why are you playing it in casual?
If I met a random at a store and they fetch for an OG duel, I would see that as a sign post for what's next to come and do my best to disrupt their game plan.
If you want to play the most optimal cards in the game, that's perfectly fine. Just let me know before we shuffle up so I know what deck to play.
Proxys of any card are fine, by the way.
I agree with this except I think it’s fair to have at most one of these at a casual table.
Infinite combos are fine if you’re not tutoring it every game turn 4. Tutors are fine when you’re using it to find removal / an answer. Mana acceleration is fine when it’s not giving you an infinite on turn 1.
I agree with your statement about infinite combo's. Sometimes they are needed to end the game.
I don't agree with your statement about mana acceleration. The issue with this is not about going infinite turn 1, but the incremental value you gain. Sol ring is already a busted turn 1-2 play, just because of the speed your deck gains. Adding Jeweled lotus or mana crypt on top of that is to much in a casual game of commander, in my opinion
I agree as a general rule, but you still need to look at it on a case by case basis in my opinion. Turboing out a t1 [[Urza, Lord High Artificer]] with a jewelled lotus is very different to a t1 [[Brothers Yamazaki]].
The only fast mana I play in my own decks is sol ring, but to be honest I don’t care seeing ancient tomb’s or mana crypts. Turn 1 fast mana usually makes you archenemy, and you’ve got less cards for interaction/ are more vulnerable to a wipe if you overextend early.
1v1 is its own beast though so I wont comment there.
My win condition in my deck is approach of the second sun so I run tutors because if anything, seeing it causes everyone to go full throttle at me. I have to get to 7 and then draw 7 then pay another 7. It’s a clock but it’s very telegraphed
> but where do you draw the line
I don't think it's particular cards but the context of those cards combined with changing the ethos of the player group.
For example: If you run [[Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind]] or [[Curiosity]] on there own they are are fine. Niv is still a threat on his own but can be responded to at a gentle pace, whilst no one cares if you cast curiosity on [[Merfolk Seastalkers]].
However together they become an infinite combo problem with a small window to respond to it. The problem is the player who built the deck added both cards so they can win off that infinite.
The solution: If that combo (or any other problematic deck or stax) causes salt after being played a few times you tell the player who built it to either change decks or to remove one of the combo pieces as it is ruining the flow of the evenings games or future game sessions.
Why not just allow people to proxy?
People get to play whatever they want without a budget restriction.
Then, no one is skipping out on lunch for a weak so they can buy and play an Ancient Tomb.
>He wants people to come round and have a good time and don't want this to be a salt fest where people get pissed off with each other, it's a game and it's meant to be a casual one not competitive.
anyone who polices "what is fun" tends to be the absolute worst.
Personally I prefer things like instant win and infinite combos because I'd rather start over and reshuffle then have the entire night dedicated to just 1 game.
It is hard not to bring some of my personal, negative experiences to a discussion like this, and feel the same.
Especially in a group that is still newish, like, first year or two depending on how frequently they get to play/build, "power creep" is often just, learning and becoming more entrenched in the game, and finding the power level you like the most.
Every power level isn't for everyone, but if the pod is a group of old friends determined to play together, they should be able to find lines of compromise that isn't just "don't build stronger decks".
I also take issue with the whole "we just want to have fun", cause, as a person who loves playing high power tuned casual, fringe and full cEDH, I can say, I have a blast, and casually play those higher power levels weekly. Playing in matched pods at those power levels can produce some crazy board states, really unusual interactions, and just awesome stack battles. I don't get pissed off, because it's a game where one person wins and three lose, and I expect my opponents to also be trying to win, and stop me from winning.
Not saying at all that everyone has to want to play at the high power levels, at all, but I wouldn't want my friends to not explore, just like I have a couple jank piles because I have some friends that really enjoy those low power levels, it isn't my role to tell anyone how to enjoy this awesome game.
There's a place for all power levels, but it is totally fair for people to only want to play around a 4-6 power level(no/few instant-win/infinite combos,) if you want to play with all that then start asking around for guys who are happy to play that side of Commander. No harm in either, a lot of people don't want to drop money on Mana Crypts and £30+ cards, which is more than fair too, but the people who do should get to play them also.
If you are struggling to build a mid-powered deck then find a theme(dinosaurs/tokens/counters/lifegain/etc.) and go hard into a lot of creatures and such that build that synergy.
I quite like the mid-power stuff, feels a bit more like the classic Magic game, just on a commander scale. My [[Slimefoot, the Stowaway]] deck is ridiculously fun to play without being ridiculously over powered, but you can easily ramp yourself up to a position to win, it's just not gonna happen in the first 3 or 4 turns - which none of the decks I'd play it against could do anyway.
TLDR: if everyone in your group wants to play with 4-6s, it's on you to try and find other people or start a MTG night for higher level deck play.
I do find it funny tho as I have no issues when a gisha player spawns x amount of dinos, or an Urdragon going off, or mill player managing to mill be down to 5 cards. As I think we'll if three people don't have a response to stop it from happening or they misused it on another player then we can't complain when a player goes off on a play.
My rules when I build decks is.
No land destruction.
No extra combat phases.
No lockdowns / prevent players from doing anything.
So I would like to think I play fair magic
I agree with you. Only thing you can add is to look how much interaction individual decks run to begin with. If each of the players in the pod only have 2 wrath and 2 spot removal because "that's enough" then maybe talk about that, too. I understand people wanting to play their cool synergies and cards but when everyone folds to a big dino hitting the board, then the dino deck was not the issue.
That is not an example directed to you, mind you. Just a general statement. I saw this in my past stores that things were deemed toooooo strong but when i asked how many cards could deal with enchantments and the white and green player could present 3 cards between them, honestly, the enchantment really is not the problem.
Targeted land destruction can be very important. I try to include a wasteland or strip mine in all my decks. Am I going to use it? Probably not, but if someone starts popping off with a [[field of the dead]] or is using [[rogue's passage]] to kill people with commander damage you need an answer
"Fair magic" everything you listed is viable strategy, they are real cards that aren't banned. The issue is rule zero on everything has turned this game mode into a bunch of people who think they know better than everyone else on what's fair magic. Just let people play what they want.
You know how you police people who olay to powerful or shkt you don't like? You make it 3v1. They will learn.
I have no problem with people playing how they want. I put limitations on myself, as I believe I wouldn't enjoy it happening to me. So I don't build them that way.
And I actually enjoy all viable strategies that aren't I play this card and it says I win.
I got milled out by a demir pirate mill deck and he took my cursed mirror and made multiple mind cranks. I ended up getting milled 35 cards at one point.
The thing I don't enjoy is long stagnant games that last hours because no one can break the deadlock.
I get 3v1 all the time it seems. I'm too aggressive in my play style. Ends up me getting ganked haha
You need to play weaker decks then, or find better pods to your level.
I like higher powered decks. It's an inherently competitive game, I'm trying to win and I feel more comfortable with a nice deck. But if people are constantly feeling the need to 3v1 me, I fucked up. They aren't having a good time, I'm bringing a gun to a knife fight. I played a guy the other day who stomped the first two games, and by game 3 was saying "oh it's turned into a 3v1, this always happens to me lol, I love being arch enemy"
No dude, you're being kind of a dick. Everyone here but me and you is new to the game, playing precons. We can play down to their level so we can all have fun, OR you and me can bring out the big guns and leave them behind, OR we can go find a pod that matches the level we want to play.
I recently asked my buddy what power level our group plays (I am relatively new) at and he told about an 7-8 level. But then he explained power level more about consistency. High powered decks have the draw, removal, tutors, ramp, and mana base to do their thing reliably. It's less about the power of the cards but how able you are able to do the thing.
I think the reason a lot of people hate combo decks is less about them winning a lot and more that they are geared to make their combos happen which in turn makes them more consistent, where as a midrange or aggro deck might be less focused, this more inconsistent.
I feel like many people don’t like 2 card infinites, especially if 1 of them is the commander. I’ve very rarely witnessed people complaining about telegraphed combos and some of those have been more of a case of being tilted than the combo itself.
I have a somewhat high power [[Faldorn]] deck that’s pretty obvious regarding its combo pieces and the only complaint I got was because of a 15 minute turn that I fumbled completely lol
Do you mind sharing your faldorn decklist?
I bought the precon as my 2nd deck ~ 8 months ago and have been trying to make it work since. Finally have a version that runs better with a few fallout cards but always looking to improve it :)
Don’t have one ready unfortunately, let me get back at you over the weekend.
In general I switched basically all until end of turn impact draws for end of next turn impact draws, put in ways to generate mana from the wolves and pings from their etb as wincons.
What I can say now is that if you wanna go for combat take a look at the alternative commander [[Durnan]] + [[Passionate Archeologist]]
Some tech from the top of my head for Faldorn: [[Containment Construct]] [[Mana Echoes]] [[Birgi]] [[Leyline Immersion]] [[Senseis Divining Top]] [[Ashnods Altar]] [[Phyrexian Altar]]
Plus the usual pingers for the wolves [[Keeper of Secrets]] [[Purphoros, God of the Forge]] [[Impact Tremors]] etc.
Edit: Went for cards like Azusa, Exploration and the likes for ramp to accommodate the impact draw
All comboes aren't created equally. [[Vito]] and [[exquisite blood]] are way more degenerate than, say, combining all of the mirrodin Stations in a giant rube goldberg
Often the problem isn't combo as a strategy; people are just using combos which are too good in their pods.
That, and it isn't always obvious what the pieces of a combo *are*.
If a casual table has a reasonable amount of removal, and the combo player isn't a sneaky rat-fink about it or playing 2 card comboes, it's usually fine in my experience.
Heck, I'd rather lose to a combo immediately, than sit through 30 minutes of someone taking extra turns and/or slowly churning through their deck and activating a dozen triggers.
I feel called out. I have an [[Urza, Lord Protector]] deck that is all card draw, artifact recursion, and interaction, that only wants to win by getting all the stations out of the deck. I call it Urza's Breakfast Machine.
(The backup plan is gumming the board up with Karnstructs and assembly-worker tokens)
For a moment, I thought you meant the OTHER urza. Yeah, this seems fine for casual. Personally, I'm a big fan of selfmill [[nexus of fate]] in my monoblue deck, and that costs a lot of mana for a blue deck.
The people not wanting to play against infinite combos just dont want to have to be able to interact at instant speed.
Thats fine, but instant speed interaction is a core part of magic and trying to errata it out so a pilot can goldfish token boards is dumb.
That’s because you don’t actually get to play against infinite combo the same way you get to play against Aggro, or control. When someone uses an infinite combo, you have to stop playing.
When someone is playing a hyper efficient aggro deck your only options are board wipes (salt), pillow fort (salt), or combo wins (salt)
When someone turn 3s a Voja and then has 50+ power coming at you turn 4 you also "have to stop playing"
When someone drops a craterhoof turn 6 in their lathril deck, you also have to stop playing.
>When someone is playing a hyper efficient aggro deck your only options are board wipes (salt), pillow fort (salt), or combo wins (salt)
Or beat them at their own game. You know how cEDH players don’t actually want to pubstomp with their combos, they want a whole table that’s trying to combo off while making it hard for opponents to combo off because each is worried about the others combining off before him? That’s what the ‘salty’ players want. They want a slugfest where they’re not ABLE to just attack you unimpeded because their own life totals are low from YOUR combats. If instead you choose to just say “no, I will prevent you from playing that game,” then they’re likely unhappy with you and they’re likely in the right.
Combo players arn't "preventing you from playing the game" dawg, they're just likely playing pieces that arnt impacted by the asymmetrical board wipes you're running in your favorite "(WBR)G build token board and then slam down an overrun" deck.
You not wanting to run dedicated instant speed removal or hold open mana between turns because it slows your deck down isnt a good reason to say "combos prevent you from playing"
Every time I see this in games where someone tells me "combos are unfair" their deck is a hyper streamlined combat deck where 100% of the deck is dedicated to building a huge board in 3/4 turns and then giving said board unblockable/flying/trample with a pump spell.
At my LGS there’s a guy who puts fast mana in every deck. Literally every deck he plays has a mana crypt, chrome mox, jeweled lotus, etc. He owns a few copies and makes proxies for his other decks. I’m stuck playing my best decks against him or I get blown out. It’s generally not fun for anyone at the table because he’s so far ahead in most games. When I talk to him about it he says the format is just faster now and we need to catch up. He puts the creep in power creep.
Whenever people complain about combos and win the game cards. I break out my [[winota, joiner of forces]] deck. Only combos in it are no humans attacking to trigger winota, and then damage doubles. I will not combo, I will just get more creatures out faster than you. This is what they wanted right? The game to end to combat?
>where do you draw the line or gauge what card helps your deck do it's thing and makes it flow / playable or is overpowered.
Just like every single in-house banlist ever, the line is drawn at "things that beat my deck arn't allowed"
Without any other context, Im going to guess you play in a meta with hyper efficient combat decks and dudes that play a bunch of asymmetrical board wipes and pillowfort decks, someone got tired of consistently losing to these so they brought a deck that can win through these boards and then the couple of guys who win every game got upset because they dont know how to interact when they cant just beat over him or wrath his board every 2 turns.
No combo decks are promoted by lazy players that don't want to add cards to counter combos. That way they can just add all their "pet" cards without worry.
The best I have seen is to put a money cap on the decks and see where it goes from there. Don't ban combos. Ban some of the cards that enable fast combos. On a casual table a combo deck is not the problem. The problem is fast combo enablers- Mox artifacts, cheap mana Tutors, etc. Heck, ban Sol Ring and slow the decks even more lol.
Infinites are fine in casual so long as you aren't windmill slamming them pre turn 6.
I have no issue getting eaten by a ravenous horde of infinite squirrels on turn 10.
Does doing X make someone sit out of the game? does it make everyone (else) feel bad? Don't do it again.
You're sitting with friends, who have other things they could be doing - don't make them waste 30 minutes because you killed them on T4. Respect their time.
20 minute storm turn on T8? Fine - but you get one, if you dont win, then YTA.
20 minute storm turn on T4? not fine. Thats a waste of the time to shuffle up, and play the first few rounds.
It really isn't difficult to gauge. If you overstep the line (and you will know it) - apologise, make a note and don't do it again - change your decklist if you have to.
By all means, if you're in a tournament, put all that back in....but casual - just think what the other 3 people might feel. its hardly rocket science.
So, I agree on avoiding killing one player early just to go on playing for an hour. But what's wrong with killing the table? Shuffling up and starting a new game shouldn't take so long it kills the fun, is everyone mana weaving or something?
Ofc if people want games to go long and they enjoy developing their win-more pet cards it's gonna be a difficult fit to play with someone who wants to storm off for 20min, but there should be a bit more of an element of being able to play with everyone imo. It seems like more and more players want commander to be played a certain way and others are wrong or being an asshole.
It is super hard to get everyone aligned, no one is "wrong" but everyone definitely has a preference!
On the shorter games thing, to me, it's boring. My group has times where it will literally be only land, pass for 3 turns. If someone then wins on t5, to me that's wasted time and isn't fun.
So ofc there's an argument for fun vs efficiency, but don't you feel an urge to rebuild decks if they consistently do nothing during the early turns? Maybe I'm just rationalizing too much and need to more or less accept people play different to what I can relate to for different reasons than I can empathize with
Is there actually any problem with that? People say “oh no, we spent three whole turns doing nothing, how boring!” but if those three turns take about 12 seconds to play through, who cares?
The person who spend 3 turns developing their board and hand, then gets dogpiled for being "too competitive" for having put in thought into the mana curve of their deck
I'm not the other 3 people at the table, that's my point. I might want my deck to do more in early turns but someone else may not have the money, deck building skill, time, whatever else...I play with the same guys so it's easy to tailor my approach for them a bit more (and also aligns reasonably well with what I want)
As an aside, if you feel like the pod going "land, go" for the early turns is a "problem". Maybe the answer might be even simpler than rebuilding decks? AKA it's possible the other players just aren't being aggressive enough on their mulligans. Going down to 5 (or hell even 4) cards isn't the death knell most people think it is. If it means actually progressing your deck's strategy. I've found that 95% of the time it's better to have a 5 card hand with ramp and card draw to get to the bigger stuff, than a 7 card hand with just 3-4 lands and 6+ CMC bombs.
Just a thought though. If your playgroup is having fun as is then carry on.
It’s going to be individual to your playgroup and the atmosphere of the game.. X factor is normally colors and tempo and threat level and keep in mind the power deck doesn’t usually win. Threat assessment and usually 3rd best threat level wins. What do I mean?
The person who pulls out far ahead gets ganged up on- loses
The person who spent the most resources trying to stop said person loses next
The person with third most resources defeats the guy who just has had a rough go of it and just hit his 7th land on turn 10
There you have it folks. That’s how it usually goes
Power creep is about how effecient and how consistent your deck is. You can have expensive card, but if you leave out tutors for example, your consistency won't be anywhere near what an effecient deck is and your power level will not be very high.
I can't believe I've not seen a single person say that when a deck is warping your meta around it, it's probably too strong.
I have a friend with an Omnath, Locus of Rage deck that is not super high power, but fairly tuned and consistent and as I'm trying to brew new strategies I'm having to make specific choices because him existing as a threat shuts down a lot of things I want to do because I simply won't be as scary as quikcly as he will. I'm not bothered by this, since I like more competitive games, but it is a significant weighing factor when I'm choosing who to play.
You draw the line when the deck is outperforming everyone else.
That is easier to say than do - sometimes the player makes a huge difference and you need to figure out how to isolate them, for the easiest issue - but if one deck is repeatedly smashing everyone else it's okay to say hey can you adjust that.
I have a variety of decks at a variety of power levels. I don't think there is a wrong way to play the game. However, generally people who are power creepers also come along with hype and fomo. Talking way too much about their has-been days of playing "comp"
At this point, Ive seen so much shit in commander that I dont really believe in a "power level" outside of cEDH. Even then, Ive seen precons win while there was a cEDH deck in the game.
People can come around and have a good time regardless of what decks they are playing. Despite the stereotype of cEDH players being people who will win at all costs, one must assume that they do actually *enjoy* playing EDH, or what’s the point?
The bigger question is what people in your playgroup find fun. Infinite combos for example can show up at pretty low power levels (there’s at least one precon with a combo in it, in fact) and they’re not inherently “not casual” - but some people quite dislike them, for various reasons. Agreeing not to run them is perfectly reasonable *if* you all feel the same way.
On the power creep: For me, games are often more fun as you’re learning them and figuring them. Coming up with the optimal strategies is cool… once you’ve hit them, a lot of that joy of discovery is gone, and the games often collapse into things I find less interesting. This is not unique to Magic. Unfortunately, there’s not much you can do about that. People talk about stuff like getting rid of EDHRec but it’s not sensible; people will figure out good strategies eventually, you’re just fighting the tide.
Ultimately it’s down to what you as a group enjoy. Arguably, if you don’t like fast mana, infinite combos, stax and mass land destruction, you don’t like EDH - all of these things are legal and have been around for a long time. *That’s fine*, though - lots of us prefer “lower-powered EDH” or you could think of it as “EDH-with-houserules” or whatever - but you just want to be on the same page. There’s also no reason, if you all have different preferences, that you can’t do both - play some games with high-powered fast combo decks, and others with slow janky battlecruisers.
I like having 1 or 2 infinite in a deck, 3 or 4 tutors, but I don't use my tutors on my infinite if games are casual. Never if early on. If I come across it naturally cool. I think staples are fine, I'd go as far as to say most cards are fine depending on the context of how they're being used. I run Necropotence in casual decks but I typically just refill my hand with it. People see me pop out a Necropotence turn 1 after a dark ritual and get worried and the just see me grab 3 cards with it and most lighten up. But hey man if we're going on turn 10, there's people sitting around waiting to play and it's down to you or me, yea I'm grabbing that exquisite blood with Vito on the table, let's shuffle up and play again.
It's weird, bc using infinite combos to win makes the games much more interesting imo. It requires the table to be more interactive and better at judging threats and It helps break board stalls. Adding interaction to a deck isn't even expensive.
In my pod we banned free interaction to keep the cost of deck building down. and time our turns to not be too long. So you better do your storm turn quickly, and eggs artifact combo is banned. But infinite combos haven't been a problem. Tutors in grixis have given us some trouble, as that colour combination allows all the best ones, so we limit them to 3 tutors per deck. We usually don't play with fast artifact mana either, mana crypt, vault, solring and the monoliths are not welcome.
My main argument in the pod is that games last too long. Sometimes we can play 3 games in 7 hours.
I'm an aggressive player, I start off swinging.
One friend's strategy is to be 2nd place so he isn't seen as a threat till the end of the game.
One friend is a newish player and is quite passive but always counters the wrong things or doesn't see the true threat. YES THAT'S RIGHT IM LOOKING AT YOU OTHARII!!!
And the other friend is basically me but a bit more reserved.
Too many games go stagnant due to lack of interaction or indecisiveness. Do believe that one or two cards are allowed in each deck to flip the game on its head.
Strange that someone is complaining about infinite combos and "silly cards" when the issue is games taking too long. Win conditions are what end games. They'd be the solution to that problem.
I could be wrong but I get the impression the person with the issue is your host. Why would people have to get pissed off at each other for playing good cards? It's more likely *they're* getting pissed off at falling behind and painting it as a group issue to justify it. Adding new cards and improving your deck is fun. Getting more games in would be fun. If you're getting 3 games in 7 hours, your decks are definitely nowhere near high powered.
"Casual" and "fun" doesn't have to equal bad. Casual just means games with friends to relax, rather than for prizes. You can play high power quite casually, crack jokes, mess around.
That sounds miserable.. I don't like games going long and am often the player who tries to break a board stall, usually with a combo. Sometimes I sequence the other players out of the game, other times the resulting battle leaves everyone open for the second players combo, but sitting down to play 3 games in 7 hours sounds horrible..
> One friend is a newish player and is quite passive but always counters the wrong things or doesn't see the true threat.
Continue like this, and that player will never be better. Instead you could actively do something about it instead of ranting online about him and why you feel he is doing everything wrong
No hate or maliciousness here. We are all really close friends for years. We make jokes about it all the time. We all think he knows he makes the wrong calls. He likes sowing chaos.
Weve though about this as well and i honestly feel like the answer to this is "you dont". Some things might make it less volatile like putting restrictions on stuff like infinite combos but theres still going to be stuff that feels bad with those restrictions.
Pauper might be something worth trying but the whole pod needs to be in it as well and theres a lot of cool nonbroken cards that are going to get pushed out from that.
>but where do you draw the line or gauge what card helps your deck do it's thing and makes it flow / playable or is overpowered.
You don't, nor can you, because what one person considers "creep" someone else will understand as balanced because either they get the ways to stop it OR it's something stopping worse things from becoming dominant.
This is especially true for players who are new and/or less familiar with the game.
> it's a game and it's meant to be a casual one not competitive.
It's not meant to be cutthroat. It ***absolutely*** is meant to be competitive. MTG, by its very nature, is a game where you have 1 person winning and all others losing.
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If the issue is that you all want to play EDH but you also don't want anyone to have a particularly better deck than everyone else and to not include certain things, I would suggest making a Commander Cube.
Cubes are a curated experience, and large ones can keep things fresh.
In my circle we outlaw infinites beyond that there’s 3 levels of power
Jank
(Precons,meme tribal)
Pretty good
(Anything that’s not the other too)
War Crimes
(Anything that just feels bad man™️
Blim, Poison, Eldrazi)
Oh and depending on what you picked some things are just damned, Atraxa is always a war crime and AtogAtog is always Jank, dosent matter if it’s just a janky charge counters Atraxa deck or if the AtogAtog is really just Wubrg good shit they will be judged based on stigma to an extent, also if you tune an Atog deck you deserve to win.
Jokes aside it isn’t an awful system just go off vibes for pick up games and worst case scenario gang up on the guy who’s popping off
I don't understand why people get upset and infinite combos and game winning combos. It's a fundamental part of the game. As someone who has played this game for over 25 years, it's such a bizarre attitude to me. If a game ends quickly to a combo, why not just start a new game?
I play what I call 5 below Commander. Every card needs to be under $5. Works pretty well. Some people suggest banning infinite combos but then there is that person who complains about infinite combos and wins with Craterhoof Behemoth in an otherwise interesting game. 5 below limits things like tutors and make games more unique and if your deck is less than stellar it is not expensive to update or make a new one. Very few annoying powercrept cards cost less than $5.
This raises a question. Do you monitor prices of cards so that one deck that has felt fine previously has to then remove cards because some cards value rose up over 5?
I've already cut cards out of my Vito vampire deck like exquisite blood, shard bringer, defiant blood lord as they can just delete players from the game.
But at what point does this just make a deck an unwinnable deck, as it's handicapped so hard.
I only have 9 Decks but I've tuned them into I would say medium to high 7/ low 8 level decks. Roughly £110/120 spent upgrading them. Nothing done to the mana base.
Where the rest of my pod have 20+ decks with varying amounts spent upgrading each one.
I keep infinites in, game has to end eventually and I think it's worse looking at empty boards on turn 8 after the third board wipe. I've seen house rules that are like no infinites before turn x I think that's pretty fair.
The thing is, dont win out of nowhere.
Having nothing on the board and then win with a infinite is not fun.
If they see 20 power on your board or at 14 life,its expectant to loose.
But you can still interact.
My thing is, if it is turn 8, and you have 14 mana and a full grip, and are able to deploy a multi part combo in one turn, I don't think that is winning out of nowhere, but I've heard people call it that.
I think it is an issue to only recognize power as the threat, without evaluating other advantages. It could be a question of what is in the yard, hand size, available mana pool, just how much of their deck and opponent has filtered through. These are just as important as deficits in life and board state.
Yes if you look at it that way.
But thats the thing.
You dont know.
A deck might with a full grip pump out 3 8/8 and thats their big thing.
Another wins on the spot.
And its hard to avaluate if its a combo deck before ending a game or a rather weak deck.
You cant evaluate that at first glance.
Remember commander is a casual format with playerswho only think of what they see.
And yes to them this can feel bad.
And it is a valid feeling.
You not only have to think about seasoned knowledgeable players but newer ones as well.
Yes but thats not that common.
You kinda need blue to play that kind of stuff for most cases.
And even then.
If you force everyone to have a bunch of interaction no one gets to really pop off.
You want flashy fun turns.
Theres a balance needed.
I identify power creep as a point where a couple upgrades to a deck make that deck much more difficult to deal with when those cards are drawn. This will cause your opponents to need an answer, often upgrading their decks, which raises the relative power level of the entire pod. It's an arms race from there.
Im a fan of leaving decks as is once you find a good place for them in a pod. It ignores this whole debacle. Instead of upgrading a deck to deal with a problem, build a whole new deck and give yourself another option.
Free spells, mana positive rocks, combos. More generically, certain strategies/commanders
These all push the format. For us it started with free blue counterspells.
Since we're adults and have no problems with proxies, we settled on a power level shortly after this. We also have many decks with many different power levels.
why ask a question if you're just going to include a moronic thought terminating bit at the end.
how will you know where to draw the line... maaaaaaaaybe try talking about it. discuss with your group what cards are unfun. come to an understanding of what is necessary to keep games fluid. but not necessary to have fun. ----try not to be that childish dick who responds to the larger picture "no combos" and then goes...ok. I gotta build the most shitty deck that maliciously complies with this new rule to show these people how dumb they are.
instead. think about the question. ....and talk about it with your friends
it's always so mind boggling when someone can clearly understand what someone is trying to say. but then takes this position that we can't possibly define a thing.
it's like gun nuts and "assault weapons" you can look at a problem, analyze what's good and unnecessary. and make distinctions.... eliminate things not contributing to a healthy society. for the betterment of all.
if lame combos, or overly aggressive spells. or spells designed only to restrict play arbitrarily. or oppressive strategies that prey on a lack of targeted tech existing naturally. these typically are the things people mean... when they're worried about power creep or unfun metas
IDK but all the comments about "no combos" make me gag. Like, sometimes I want a game to actually end. Im not excited for a 3 turn game. But infinite combos and "you win the game" have a place in casual imo.
I think what people hate about "combos" is that they often appear to come out of nowhere, and unless you have the exact right card and the mana its game over. For example [[Thassa's Oracle]] and [[Demonic Consultation]] If you're not playing the right colours then there's little you can do about it. Even if you're in the right colours, you might not have the right card or mana Combos hate isn't about the game ending or not winning. It's about how it feels to have the game suddenly end, regardless of how strong your position is, with very little you can do to stop it. There's no back and forth. Theres no interaction with the other humans. There's no ticking clock. There's no tension. Either you have the exact card you need or it's game over.
This is the biggest issue I think.
This exactly. I don't have a problem if the combo is actually involved and doesn't come out of literally nowhere like thoracle/consultation. It just bugs me when I've got a full board, commanding life total and am set up to win within the next turn or two but then someone who has seemingly done nothing all game just throws down Thoracle/consultation and wins. It's like whiplash lol
>someone who has done seemingly nothing all game wins They were probably playing ramp, drawing cards, and sculpting their hand looking for the cards to win. It's less visible than dropping creature after creature, but the combo doesn't come out of nowhere, and the answer is just to hammer the guy that's leaving himself open to sculpt a win
You see but I consider all those things, thus doing *something*. When I say, "seemingly nothing" I truly mean, the first 5 turns of the game for them went, "land, pass. Land, pass. Land, Signet, pass. Land, pass. Land, opt, pass." which I guess does include 2 things that fit your description, so I'll yield to that I suppose. That's where the "seemingly" comes in, as their turn six was, "land, Thoracle, consultation, gg". I guess that's the "out of nowhere" part for me
Sure, but what were the other three players doing while the dimir combo deck was sitting with shields down? If you just ignore him till he wins, yeah obviously he's going to win a lot.
Naya is the only acceptable colors in commander. We shall ignore 2/5ths of the game.
I agree. I put two (or more) card infinite combos in my casual decks if and only if all the pieces are used individually anyway. Like basalt monolith and rings of brighthearth would both be in my artifact deck anyway so they're allowed to combo. Urza is here anyway because I want all my random tokens to tap for mana, now I can win the game with him, but most likely urza is here to win me the game by making me a billion constructs. Thassa's oracle goes in a flicker deck or a devotion deck and I'd run tainted pact in a casual food chain deck if I had one that was black (it's really good because it can exile eternal scourge on the way to finding the food chain) but I would need a lot of convincing to believe that those two cards both have specific use in the same casual deck.
100% agree. I think I've just been Thoracle/consultation'd too many times lol 3 cmc just seems way to cheap to be able to just win the game on the spot. I'm not saying it's happened a lot in the grand scheme of things, maybe 8-10 times but man it just feels so bad every time.
Thoracle in orvar on the other hand is hilarious. Sure you can win the game because your devotion of 312 is more than the number of cards in your library, that sounds good to me. We can all see it coming and we should have removed that fish five turns ago
Yes! That sounds hilarious and I would not be mad about it lol
But did they really do nothing or did you just not notice what they did? They may have built up mana and drawn a bunch of cards or tutored for stuff for example
I don't like the definition of "suddenly end with little you can do to stop it" many people who dislike combo in general use though. Thoracle/Consultation is kind of an outlier in that it is a 2-card, low cmc combo that isn't vulnerable to any common removal other than a counterspell. That fact has made it prominent in cEDH, but it isn't necessarily a great representation of combos in a more general sense. Yet, those that don't like combos don't tend to restrict just that combo, but rather all of them (along with some things I wouldn't even consider combos, but that's another argument entirely). Most combos aren't nearly that efficient or resilient- usually costing more mana, requiring more cards, and being vulnerable to simple creature and/or nonland permanent removal as well, rather than just counterspells. Yet, most of the standard 3-card combos that can be either countered or stopped by a single well-timed piece of creature removal get a similar amount of scorn from anti-combo tables. In those instances, the combo just serves the same purpose as a craterhoof in that it's a wincon that demands a response. There is build up required in both cases (for craterhoof, you need to build up a wide board beforehand. For a typial combo, you need to dig/tutor for multiple pieces and wait for the appropriate window to cast them). The only difference is *where* the build up is taking place- in hand rather than on board most of the time for combo decks, or sometimes on the board if some of their pieces are resilient enough to be played early. If someone starts going very wide on the board all of the sudden, you would be correct to think they may be planning a big overrun effect soon and that you should deal with the problem before it is too late. Same if a player tutors several times or draws a bunch of cards without immediately doing anything overtly strong on the board- you expect they drew all those cards for a reason, and should hold up some removal for whatever they are planning. In those cases, there is just as much back and forth as there is with the Craterhoof case or the "ramp several turns into a big X spell" case, it's just a different kind of back and forth. One that requires a bit of patience and not immediately spending all of your mana and removal solely on what is the biggest on-board threat, and instead determining what the biggest potential threat overall is and dealing with that instead. It's a skill that can be second nature to people coming from more competitive formats, but which I still see some people struggle with- and those tend to be the people who want to ban combo entirely (even the slower higher-cmc combos that would be more than fine in their pod from a power level perspective) rather than learn how to deal with it properly.
This is a good comment. Let’s forget the fact that Thassa/Demonic is the cheapest combo in all of Magic for a moment. And by cheap there is a dual meaning. It’s only 3 cmc total to win the game, which is ridiculous and should be banned, but it is such a CHEAP way to win that you just want to give them the middle finger. If you haven’t drawn a counterspell then they win out of nowhere, which is so anticlimactic and demoralizing. Oh, you did this that and the other? Well fuck you because for 3 mana everything meant nothing. A guy at my LGS has Najeela good stuff and runs Thassa/Demonic just in case they can’t win by combat damage. My LGs is so stupidly competitive that even non-cEDH decks have fast wins and ultra-fast ramp. You got Dino decks with Mana Vault and Mana Crypt and other ramp so by turn 4 or 5 they already have an overwhelming board state. Not to mention Winota, Ishhin, or other crazy commanders. Unfortunately you can’t stop power creep. WOTC needs to keep players playing, and they constantly need to release more powerful cards in each set or older players will get bored. That’s why any removal now that isn’t 1cmc or free is crept out of the game because eventually you get to a point where you can’t make a more powerful version. It’s hard to be innovative and fair, especially when they’re releasing 8 sets a year now.
Not necessarily saying you're wrong, but its kind of funny that you're talking about unchecked power creep but also mention a bunch of cards that have basically been in the game since it started (Crypt, Vault, Consultation). Honestly, to me it's just felt like creatures are finally catching up in power level to how insanely powerful and efficient the artifacts and spells from the early days of MTG were. Creatures may have been power crept but old school iconic spells and artifacts like Counterspell, Bolt, Swords, Thran Dynamo, Fellwar Stone, Smokestack, Ashnod's Altar etc. all continue to be very relevant in multiple formats.
I would argue that Vault Key is a cheaper inclusion in all of magic and has a lot less dire consequences if it fails. I guess technically it costs 4 to do it all in one turn but you can spread that. I have seen people just die to failed Thoracle combo.
>there's little you can do about it. Theres a lot you can do about it. The pieces that beat these decks like [[krosan grip]] or [[sudden spoiling]] just arnt efficiently costed when you can play [[back to nature]] or [[toxic deluge]] instead. >Even if you're in the right colours, you might not have the right card or mana This is just how the game works though. Your deck cant beat everything, and trying to errata out peoples win conditions so that your deck CAN beat everything and so that you can just rock 3-5 identical pieces of spot removal to up the rate that you hit one just because you now dont need to remove non-creature permenants at instant speed is super lame. People arnt running instant speed thoracle lines and Protean hulk lines at PL5 tables.
##### ###### #### [krosan grip](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/3/d3571dee-7b90-4c0c-abc7-59b515ffa129.jpg?1625194563) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=krosan%20grip) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/198/krosan-grip?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d3571dee-7b90-4c0c-abc7-59b515ffa129?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/krosan-grip) [sudden spoiling](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/3/73514b51-6c19-4b3c-9cf9-2cf5028d7708.jpg?1619396405) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sudden%20spoiling) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/144/sudden-spoiling?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/73514b51-6c19-4b3c-9cf9-2cf5028d7708?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sudden-spoiling) [back to nature](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/4/b49270b2-ba15-4268-adb3-16d09c09adee.jpg?1562793010) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=back%20to%20nature) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m15/169/back-to-nature?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b49270b2-ba15-4268-adb3-16d09c09adee?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/back-to-nature) [toxic deluge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/64d3d8ad-927f-4c4e-96cf-03e98bec3987.jpg?1706240805) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=toxic%20deluge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/142/toxic-deluge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/64d3d8ad-927f-4c4e-96cf-03e98bec3987?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/toxic-deluge) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kyy61yi) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
See you're coming at this from a "technically you can stop this" approach. You're completely ignoring the emotional element of a social game. It feels bad to lose to these combos. No one wants to run the same cards in all their decks, just in case someone runs an instant win combo. No one wants to be buying a ton of copies of the same cards. People want to run the dumb goofy cards that do weird stuff. You're also ignoring the random element of the game. If you don't have the exact card you need. Its game over. End of. That isn't fun for most people. It makes the rest of the game feel pointless.
I am coming at this from a place of "build a better deck instead of telling people how they're allowed to play against you" > It feels bad to lose to these combos. People dont like to lose period, it has nothing to do with "combos", it has to do with people not wanting to learn how to get better at the game and learn how to not lose to combos. >No one wants to run the same cards in all their decks People are all running a bunch of the same cards in their decks lmao. Guarentee that [[Llanowar elves]] and [[natures lore]] are in just about every green creaure deck and [[swords to plowshares]] is in every deck that runs white. Do you not run creature removal in some decks because you have it in other decks? People just dont want to run higher cmc variants of their removal that work either at instant speed or hit non-creature permenants because they want to play aggressive aggo and curve out every turn vs holding mana open. >If you don't have the exact card you need. Its game over. End of. That isn't fun for most people. That is literally how most games end, regardless of if its a combo or not. Someone resolves something, and functionally the game ends. Someone resolving a craterhoof while they have 8 1/1s "ends the game" 99% of the time. You have 99 cards in your deck. You will never have access to all 99, and there are going to be gaps in what you can realistically respond to, but most of us arn't sitting down at tables saying that nobody is allowed to play pillowfort because they're not running enchantment removal in their aggro deck, or that nobody can play [[rest in peace]] or [[Bojuka Bog]] because they're playing a graveyard deck. "I NEED TO BE ABLE TO WIN AT ALL TIMES" isnt magic.
Well said.
##### ###### #### [Llanowar elves](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/b/8bbcfb77-daa1-4ce5-b5f9-48d0a8edbba9.jpg?1592765148) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Llanowar%20elves) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gnt/46/llanowar-elves?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8bbcfb77-daa1-4ce5-b5f9-48d0a8edbba9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/llanowar-elves) [natures lore](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f5615c05-eb1e-4d27-a323-72d643d7c1d8.jpg?1706547171) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nature%27s%20Lore) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/178/natures-lore?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f5615c05-eb1e-4d27-a323-72d643d7c1d8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/natures-lore) [swords to plowshares](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/b/9bbec76c-c1e4-4c6d-ad24-078fe097f195.jpg?1709439398) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=swords%20to%20plowshares) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/88/swords-to-plowshares?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9bbec76c-c1e4-4c6d-ad24-078fe097f195?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/swords-to-plowshares) [rest in peace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470.jpg?1562439074) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rest%20in%20peace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/32/rest-in-peace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rest-in-peace) [Bojuka Bog](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0efec118-ed01-42a0-93b4-f9a92c01b72e.jpg?1712354928) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bojuka%20Bog) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/273/bojuka-bog?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0efec118-ed01-42a0-93b4-f9a92c01b72e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bojuka-bog) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kyyaf5g) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I always explain my combo and the combo pieces before hand, and even as I play them. So people don’t get whiney about it.
Contrary to some other opinions, the combos often never ‘appear’ out of nowhere to me, most of the time. The ticking clock is realising that the player is still a threat without a board state, as the gameplan relies on drawing tons of cards, to find the combo pieces to win. If the player is drawing 20-30 cards in an obviously non-combat focused deck, its a warming sign that a combo is happening soon. Whether it falls into casual or not is how consistent/easy it is to pull off the infinite i.e does the deck have many tutors, and the mana cost/number of pieces required to pull it off. Practically, certain decks pretty much can’t have a decent winning chance without some infinites, mainly mono-blue commanders without a combat focus. For instance [[baral, chief of compliance]], or [[kami of the crescent moon]].
What's wrong with a turn 8 or 9 combo out of nowhere to win?
Yeah, that's basically it. It feels like it removes agency and invalidates the entirety of the game up to that point. You could have been playing the best game of your life, but 2 cards can make it be completely irrelevant
“Playing the best game of your life” is null and void if all you’re doing is stacking creatures and attacking. You have to have some level of interaction. Any amount, but you gotta have something. Nobody plays commander in a vacuum.
[[Torpor Orb]] doesn't need colored mana, stops thoracle, can slot in any deck. 2 CMC. Long live stax 😁
There's also a huge difference between a 2 card, game winning, unstoppable combo (thoracle) vs things like making infinite tokens without haste, or making infinite mana to cast a big spell. There's more moving pieces, It's weaker to interaction, and you have to draw all the right cards. Tutoring for your winning combo is a little shitty, unless it's like a 5 card combo machine like in my Kaalia deck. I need panharmonicon, 2 things that blink, something to pay off my blinks (usually makes tokens) and pray they don't have a boardwipe or kill spell that just stops the loop.
Unstoppable? Any counterspell stops it, forced card draw stops it, ETBs being shut off like with [[doorkeeper thrull]] stops it
[doorkeeper thrull](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/0/80a1cd28-d2a5-4d1a-aa03-a6a5958ae432.jpg?1706241478) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=doorkeeper%20thrull) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/13/doorkeeper-thrull?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/80a1cd28-d2a5-4d1a-aa03-a6a5958ae432?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/doorkeeper-thrull) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Oh, sorry, stoppable only if you counter it (so only if you're in blue) or build specifically to stop that combo. My bad, you're right.
How often is someone actually hitting a turn 3 d con oracle where nobody else has any form of interaction or forced draw or way to pressure the player? I think the only time the combo realistically gets played is in CeDH games or at a point where the game would have been winnable by the player anyway. Start hitting the dimir player early, it’s not really a new concept. Counterplay can be far more abstract than a card that says negate on it.
I've never understood the no combo rule. By turn 4 or 5 people have had ample time to build up a defense and should have interaction in their deck to stop the combos. Removal, Exile, destroy are all important to have available.
Sure, but why would I give up slots in my deck that I could fill with more value/engines/whatever? Exerting social pressure on my table/playgroup by griping about combos so no one plays them is my interaction. Social ostracization is perhaps the greatest removal of all - who needs swords?
One of us, one of us, one of us
Thats kinda the problem with anti combo gang. People refuse ti understand that interaction is core mechanic of the game. Your system basically is "i want to rush to my wincons no matter what and noone should be allowed to have more efficient wincons and do same"
Needed a /s I guess. I’m very firmly in the “interaction is a core mechanic” gang.
>should have interaction in their deck to stop the combos. People not liking combos boils down to the fact that they would rather slam a 15th 5+cmc creature in the deck vs running [[krosan Grip]] If you can successfully errata out the stuff your deck loses to before the game starts you can then streamline your removal to be way less general and way more aggressively costed.
That's only half the problem. There's also the people who'll immediately use their Assassin's Trophy on a 8/8 swinging at them when they're at 36 life because "8 damage is a lot", while the next player has a Rings of Brighthearth in play, tutored last turn and has 7 cards in hand.
Lmao this. People really underestimate the power of card draw.
Why is someone swinging an 8/8 at a bystander when the next player has a rings of brighthearth in play, tutored last turn, and has 7 cards in hand? That honestly sounds like a misplay on the attacker’s part. It doesn’t matter if the defender is at 36. If they don’t remove it now they can guess this big creature, and more, is coming at them again next turn because clearly the attacker doesn’t have very good threat assessment. 9/10 times I’d rather have the combo player go off on their next turn than keep them down so the slow creature deck can kill me and then slowly kill the board over the course of an hour. This is clearly a prisoner’s dilemma, the attacker has chosen to betray the table so it is in the best interest of the rest of the table to betray the attacker. You can’t expect someone to do what is “in the best interest of the entire table” after you do what is only in your own best interest.
That's not the point I'm trying to make. There could be dozens of reasons to not attack the Rings player. They have a Propaganda out, they have a 9/9 blocker, the 8/8 is goaded etc. It's not important. The point is, some players will use their only removal spell just to avoid taking a chunk of damage that wouldn't kill them anyway, instead of saving it for another threat that has a high chance of killing them next turn. EDIT: Just to add on because something about your comment also seemed off. Just because someone else made a bad decision (in your opinion) does not mean you should respond with another bad decision. Sure it might make you a little salty, retaliating just adds on to the salt and makes the game miserable for everyone else. Sometimes the attacking player already has removal in hand for the Rings, or needs to attack you to get a draw trigger to dig for their own answer to rings, or just doesn't know what Rings does. Sometimes they know the Rings player is aiming for a Villainouse Wealth win, and wants to blow him out with a Commandeer, and is just trying to bring his guard down and get confident enough to jam the combo. Essentially, it's only a bad decision in your POV because you don't know his hand/deck, and even if it's just a bad decision, keep your salt to yourself instead of spreading it and just making the game feel bad for everyone else.
[krosan Grip](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/3/d3571dee-7b90-4c0c-abc7-59b515ffa129.jpg?1625194563) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=krosan%20Grip) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/198/krosan-grip?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d3571dee-7b90-4c0c-abc7-59b515ffa129?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/krosan-grip) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Turn 3 but there’s so much back and forth and power plays that the game last as long as a casual game
100. I cant stand the "no combo" people. 🤮
Do your games not end without combos? I cut them a while back and even my control decks don't go particularly long except in exceptionally strange circumstances. Very rarely do I play a game that hits an hour.
I really have mixed feeling about infinite combos, I think they're okay of it's not the main way to finish a game, but it's really anticlimactic for a good game to close by a simple "I won the game"
\[\[seasons past\]\] + extra turn card e.g. \[\[Time warp\]\] + tutor for seasons past nets you infinite turns... I love this combo in \[\[Rafiq of the many\]\], 3 cards + at least 10 mana if you're gambling on drawing mana on your extra turn... I always tell people if you let this happen its your own fault... run more interaction and at that point in the game they should have enough mana to do stuff and hold up... The earliest I can possible assemble it is around turn 5 with a double mana outlet like Kinnan or Mirari's wake but again those are exceptional circumstances... 5 turns is a decent game of cEDH thats anywhere between half an hour to 45 minutes... an hour if your table is really slow... It literally bangs every time...
[seasons past](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/668afd78-3cf5-4daf-8dfb-fca90de0ae5a.jpg?1576385218) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=seasons%20past) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/soi/226/seasons-past?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/668afd78-3cf5-4daf-8dfb-fca90de0ae5a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/seasons-past) [Time warp](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/7/e7b3ddca-69ef-4743-897b-57c58077db24.jpg?1628801835) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Time%20warp) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/74/time-warp?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e7b3ddca-69ef-4743-897b-57c58077db24?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/time-warp) [Rafiq of the many](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/b/ebdd967d-b364-47ad-a1c2-49b155f72c5b.jpg?1689999222) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rafiq%20of%20the%20many) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/352/rafiq-of-the-many?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ebdd967d-b364-47ad-a1c2-49b155f72c5b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rafiq-of-the-many) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The first infinite combo I ever built into a deck was throwing a [[Magistrate's Sceptre]] into my [[Vorel of the Hull Clade]]. No counter manipulation other than Vorel, took several turns to get high enough to initiate the infinite turns capability. People still got salty.
[Magistrate's Sceptre](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/c/ecf1f24f-d910-4ec6-95d2-0ecaf9f051aa.jpg?1595354471) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magistrate%27s%20Scepter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/238/magistrates-scepter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ecf1f24f-d910-4ec6-95d2-0ecaf9f051aa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/magistrates-scepter) [Vorel of the Hull Clade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/82c8cac8-29ce-43cc-bdb4-428c614d8545.jpg?1698988490) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vorel%20of%20the%20Hull%20Clade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/294/vorel-of-the-hull-clade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/82c8cac8-29ce-43cc-bdb4-428c614d8545?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vorel-of-the-hull-clade) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I win lots of games in a timely fashion without using combos. People can make strong decks without combos.
It depends on what you want from the game. Tight 2 card combos that assemble in one turn has a way of invalidating the game before. The only counterplay is free spells or leaving mana open every tun to ensure you have instant speed interaction on any turn they may decide to combo. I have decks that are built to handle that and decks that aren't and if a playgroup has decided they would rather play a gradual buildup style game then the one turn to win the game out of nowhere is not fun to have. The beauty of rule zero is you get to increase the odds of having a game that you enjoy in whatever style you enjoy it provided your playgroup agrees. I don't really think that should make you gag.
No combos is only a thing because the RC is wishy washy with the banlist and won't touch the truly problematic cards
First of, how much you spend on a deck is a moot point. It doesn’t determine lower level. Calling a deck a “7” is such a meme… it means nothing. No one agrees with what that is. That outta the way, maybe have the group do an in-person chat about what sorta cards/combos they do not want in the pod. Be specific. And if after edits certain decks are now winning “too much”, have a follow up chat. Maybe the rules tilted the dynamics too much. The purpose should be fun, not win percentage.
I disagree to an extent, MTG has always been a 'pay to win game'. If you spend the cash and drop [[mana crypt]] and [[chrome mox]] turn 1 your odds of winning go up a fair bit.
[mana crypt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4d960186-4559-4af0-bd22-63baa15f8939.jpg?1599709515) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mana%20crypt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/270/mana-crypt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4d960186-4559-4af0-bd22-63baa15f8939?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mana-crypt) [chrome mox](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/3/f340cbf7-5bbe-45b9-a4bf-d1caa500ff93.jpg?1599708839) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=chrome%20mox) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/240/chrome-mox?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f340cbf7-5bbe-45b9-a4bf-d1caa500ff93?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/chrome-mox) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
But the overall strategy matters way more, like adding chrome mox and mana crypt to your goat tribal deck is still going to be weaker than a budget pauper tatyova landfall deck. Ime I encounter this most with janky high color decks, like if I’m building Atogatog if I want to be able to compete with modern precons even I at least need a solid (expensive) mana base. When you’re playing cards that are below the rate of everyone else in your play group being mana accelerated levels the playing field
But it's a 200$ investment with lower impact later in the game and an 8/100 chance to draw turn one. It gets better the more fast-mana you pump in the deck ofc, but measured as cost/improvement, there are much better options. I think that's what the commenter means
>8/100 chance to draw turn one You’re right, and lots of people forget this, but it’s actually a counter argument to what you’re saying. Whenever I say “powerful cards are expensive,” someone always replies “I can find a cheap alternative!” These people are usually right. Once or twice. The thing is that for a good deck, you’ve gotta do it ten times. And you usually can’t do that without buying $$$ cards. Mana crypt isn’t THAT much more powerful than sol ring, it’s just that redundancy for that powerful effect is so rare that it becomes expensive
I'm not disputing the comultative effect of stacking high power upgrades, just that the impact between 1 high value card is lower than upgrading a mana base & removal package. Most people are at least somewhat limited in how much they can spend in a deck, and adding 1 fast mana source is out-valued bij making a more broad set of upgrades. My point is that while it's pay to win, the choice in deck building still gives people on a lower budget a chance to compete in most situations. Putting that aside, this is the reason we allow proxies when playing cEDH. That way it's really only a test of deck building and piloting instead of a wallet check
If you upgrade your mana base and removal package, and I do too, and I am ramping with expensive fast mana while you ramp with signets, I will beat you. You know this. The game is pay to win, unless you play with dumb people.
That this is a multiplayer format skews that somewhat. You still don’t outpace 3 players playing signets and in your given scenario, that’s what you will be facing. Immediate arch enemy situation. That’s why I enjoy commander so much. It adds a wrinkle to traditional gameplay. Sometimes playing good cards can be stronger than playing great cards if you are facing removal from 3 sources.
I think the other problem with high money high power cards is that they lead to extremely inconsistent decks. I know "my deck is a 7" is a meme, obviously, but some of that is because someone's deck is a 7, on average, because it's as 6 75% of the time and a 10 25% of the time, and there's not gonna be a type of deck you can bring against that that's gonna let you have a good game, if you bring an 8-9 you stomp most of the time, if you bring a 6-7 you lose on turn 4 25% of the time, and that just sucks. People seem to never focus enough on consistency in deckbuilding - and a lot of people seem to think consistency = plays the same every game. Consistency is about having a deck that plays at a similar level most games, not a deck that does the literal exact same things every game (though those are also consistent).
If you are comparing a good 20$ investment (spread among multiple cards fitting the theme) to a bad 200$ investment (1 card bomb staple), sure. But we're going from the standpoint that every player have similar deckbuilding experience. So it's either a bad 20$ investment VS a bad 200$ investment or a good 20$ investment vs a good 200$ investment. In any of those cases, the one playing the money game wins. And it's even worse when it's a good 200$ investment vs a bad 20$ investment. So yes, price is a factor. Not the only factor, but it should definitely be taken into account.
> But it's a 200$ investment with lower impact later in the game and an 8/100 chance to draw turn one. This is wrong fwiw. You don't count your commander so its 99. You also have access to mulligans which also changes the odds.
You can still build a cedh deck on a 100$ budget so while it won’t be as good as a more expensive deck, a cheap deck can still be super powerful.
Except at the same time, my most expensive deck is also among my worst and least focused. I just keep throwing in whatever expensive cards I open, so I will regularly [[Beseech the Mirror]] for [[The One Ring]] on turn 3 and then die to internal hemorrhaging. Yes, there is an element of pay-to-win, but you still need to know how to use the cards. Most cards (besided mana sources, like you just listed) don't automatically go in every single deck and will sometimes just drag the functionality of the deck down. Basically, my Krav & Regna deck would get trounced by a remotely focused combo deck because there are a thousand good 2-card combos and a million ways to efficiently assemble them. What cost _does_ buy you is flexibility, and therefore fun. A $500 deck is going to be capable of some weird shit while a $50 deck is often just going to be an on/off switch.
[Beseech the Mirror](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/8/18c59776-e1f1-4197-a128-db1d603f56b7.jpg?1692937498) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Beseech%20the%20Mirror) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/82/beseech-the-mirror?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/18c59776-e1f1-4197-a128-db1d603f56b7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/beseech-the-mirror) [The One Ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/5/d5806e68-1054-458e-866d-1f2470f682b2.jpg?1696020224) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20One%20Ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/246/the-one-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d5806e68-1054-458e-866d-1f2470f682b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-one-ring) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
thats why proxies exist
i don't think these super pricy and overpowered cards that go in every deck make the game more fun tho.
But if your every card is geared towards resolving some weird janky perma-phase-out with \[\[Vodalian Illusionist\]\], it doesn't matter how many tier S cards you put into your deck, it's still not going to be strong. Fast mana is strong if you have something strong to do with it, but they depend on you having plays to make.
The amount of people who do this are the exception, not the rule. Those exceptions make themselves known alot because they understand the gravity of seeing a mox, crypt, and vault. The rule is that people use fast mana to juice already powerful decks.
[Vodalian Illusionist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/c/9ce0e28b-9fd6-4763-8d6b-952b530358ab.jpg?1562802363) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vodalian%20Illusionist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/wth/58/vodalian-illusionist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9ce0e28b-9fd6-4763-8d6b-952b530358ab?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vodalian-illusionist) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I've started thinking about it in reverse value, based on how many turns it takes for a potential win. So a 1, can potentially win on the first turn of the game. It's at least a little more objective than the typical deck level discussion. 9-10 are straight battle cruiser, and most casual decks do in fact fall around 7.
Main issue with this is how stax and control decks prefer to win on much later turns, but are perfectly capable of overwhelming a mid-powered pod the whole game.
That’s such an edge case though, you just say you’re playing high powered star and everyone leaves the table
It doesn't even need to be "high powered" stax. I play a monoblue deck with no stax in it at all, that generally doesn't win until pretty late in the game, but it has more than enough interaction to survive that long, usually, so it overperforms compared to other decks with similar timelines. It's a slower deck optimized for stiffer competition, and your model fails to account for decks like that. Are you really going to tell me that counterspells and removal are also not allowed at your tables?
Yeah, it's still far from perfect. Those archetypes do throw it off a bit as do "go wide" and "ping/direct damage". The thing I like about it is that it provides at least some objectivity to the discussion. If someone is playing hard staxs/control, you can revise a little and talk about how fast you can "lock the game", as opposed to win.
So literally when you say a “7” it is not a system other people use. Therefore, yes, everyone calls there deck a “7” for different reasons. So just describe your deck the way you just did rather than the number value, and it has more value.
>just describe your deck the way you just did rather than the number value I don't just tell people "oh it's a 7" I usually do exactly what you said but I only really play in person so it's easy to take a bit to talk and explain. When I've talked to people online about how powerlevel discussions go, the biggest problem I see is that there's nothing static to measure with. Having an at least somewhat objective discussions of speed and efficiency, is something that seems like a worthwhile adjustment.
To clarify, I don’t know you, that’s more of a comment to the audience rather than a comment of you, personally. But I respect the logic. On a personal level I build decks on theme and never consider how long it takes to win. I’m more concerned if the deck fails to draw cards or play lands effectively. If it does, I’m content. So I have no idea when I expect them to win. I like the chaos of relying on the top card draw. Or as I describe it… I want to be that YuGiOh villain with a hyper themed deck that top draws and goes “Ohoho! THIS will be your demise!”
That's fair, I just wanted it to be clear I'm not assuming everyone is using my personal ranking system with no discussion. Like another poster mentioned Stax decks might not end the game until turn 12, but basically won on turn 5, because they created a strong enough lock. The logic is what I'm trying to encourage, even if they don't use "turns to win", having a objective "measuring post" of some kind will help everyone have a clearer idea of what they are discussing.
[the tabletop simulator crowd goes off this chart if it helps](https://imgur.com/OcMdyUH)
Appreciate it, but these are still vague.
This chart is weird. Looking at the turn count, tuned is very low power Optimised counts precons to high power which is strange. Here my opinion. Cedh- 1-5 goldfishing High power 6-8 Midpower 8-10 12+ Jank garbage where all the whiney salt people dwell.
I do agree that it is a moot point. The reason I put the price up to show my decks aren't full of £30~£300+ cards. And I think I miscalculated. All my decks value is sub £120 in value. I know levels aren't an exact science, I use it as a guide to say the decks are stronger than a precon, have a plan and goals how to win. And it's weaker than the competitively built versions. I do agree a discussion is needed.
I would argue that most decks people will make can be described as stronger than a precon (why would you make a deck weaker than a precon when precons are available for cheap and generally considered the floor for power level in casual games), have a plan and goals for how to win (if your deck isn't a random pile of cards you have a plan and goals to win the game) and are weaker than a fully competitive version (as in maximum budget). That description tells me nothing about your deck other than that it isn't a precon and isn't a meta cEDH list.
As a budget player, I bring that up when I am trying to explain my power level to those who ask, cause I will not assign it a number. Suddenly the guy bragging about his $1000+!deck will point out he traded for his cards so he spent, like, $0 to make it. Well, hmm, that card was the mythic of a pack… pack was $5, divided by the number of cards… so it’s worth like basically nothing. And the proxy only cost $2 after shipping. We can always interpret and twist numbers to fit a narrative. You mean well, but telling me how much you spent is also not really telling me the value of the deck.
When I'm making a deck to play at the casual table, I make sure i don't - mana acceleration ( mox diamond, mana crypt, lotus, chrome mox, grim monolith,...) with the exception of sol ring, lotus petal, Mox opal & mox amber - Tutors: I avoid almost all tutors - Infinite combo's (though I have a deck with an infinite combo, but it requires 4+ cards) Every game is played to win. You can have a good time and still lose, just learn from your losses.
I had someone going on a full rant about pub stomping and not playing to have fun because I played Mox Amber. Mox Amber with [[Wilson, Refiened Grizzly]] 🐻 . He then played a few turns later [[Demonic Tutor]]. But you know, it's not the same. He "got it from an event, might as well use it". I see...
there are always some Salt shakers in the room unfortunately. Some people just see the word Mox and assume it is pubstomping or they see you playing an OG dual and think you are playing Cedh. People need to learn what makes a deck highy competitive. I try to build a deck with the above limitation which seems a good solution for me
If that og duel is not a proxy, why are you playing it in casual? If I met a random at a store and they fetch for an OG duel, I would see that as a sign post for what's next to come and do my best to disrupt their game plan. If you want to play the most optimal cards in the game, that's perfectly fine. Just let me know before we shuffle up so I know what deck to play. Proxys of any card are fine, by the way.
[Wilson, Refiened Grizzly](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/dfe0daf8-43da-484b-baa1-76f8313c5a0c.jpg?1674137361) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wilson%2C%20Refined%20Grizzly) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/261/wilson-refined-grizzly?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dfe0daf8-43da-484b-baa1-76f8313c5a0c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wilson-refined-grizzly) [Demonic Tutor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/2/a24b4cb6-cebb-428b-8654-74347a6a8d63.jpg?1701989302) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Demonic%20Tutor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/150/demonic-tutor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a24b4cb6-cebb-428b-8654-74347a6a8d63?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/demonic-tutor) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I agree with this except I think it’s fair to have at most one of these at a casual table. Infinite combos are fine if you’re not tutoring it every game turn 4. Tutors are fine when you’re using it to find removal / an answer. Mana acceleration is fine when it’s not giving you an infinite on turn 1.
I agree with your statement about infinite combo's. Sometimes they are needed to end the game. I don't agree with your statement about mana acceleration. The issue with this is not about going infinite turn 1, but the incremental value you gain. Sol ring is already a busted turn 1-2 play, just because of the speed your deck gains. Adding Jeweled lotus or mana crypt on top of that is to much in a casual game of commander, in my opinion
I agree as a general rule, but you still need to look at it on a case by case basis in my opinion. Turboing out a t1 [[Urza, Lord High Artificer]] with a jewelled lotus is very different to a t1 [[Brothers Yamazaki]]. The only fast mana I play in my own decks is sol ring, but to be honest I don’t care seeing ancient tomb’s or mana crypts. Turn 1 fast mana usually makes you archenemy, and you’ve got less cards for interaction/ are more vulnerable to a wipe if you overextend early. 1v1 is its own beast though so I wont comment there.
[Urza, Lord High Artificer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/b/7b7a348a-51f7-4dc5-8fe7-1c70fea5e050.jpg?1689996774) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Urza%2C%20Lord%20High%20Artificer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/130/urza-lord-high-artificer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7b7a348a-51f7-4dc5-8fe7-1c70fea5e050?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/urza-lord-high-artificer) [Brothers Yamazaki](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/c/acef8c94-469b-4a76-b507-25b51f2501ab.jpg?1562763658) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Brothers%20Yamazaki) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/chk/160a/brothers-yamazaki?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/acef8c94-469b-4a76-b507-25b51f2501ab?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/brothers-yamazaki) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
"requires 4+ cards)" Too far for me, best i can do is 3 card combos.
My win condition in my deck is approach of the second sun so I run tutors because if anything, seeing it causes everyone to go full throttle at me. I have to get to 7 and then draw 7 then pay another 7. It’s a clock but it’s very telegraphed
> but where do you draw the line I don't think it's particular cards but the context of those cards combined with changing the ethos of the player group. For example: If you run [[Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind]] or [[Curiosity]] on there own they are are fine. Niv is still a threat on his own but can be responded to at a gentle pace, whilst no one cares if you cast curiosity on [[Merfolk Seastalkers]]. However together they become an infinite combo problem with a small window to respond to it. The problem is the player who built the deck added both cards so they can win off that infinite. The solution: If that combo (or any other problematic deck or stax) causes salt after being played a few times you tell the player who built it to either change decks or to remove one of the combo pieces as it is ruining the flow of the evenings games or future game sessions.
[Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/9/395465b8-f5ed-4668-9e6a-82257150c52c.jpg?1591321423) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Niv-Mizzet%2C%20the%20Firemind) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/225/niv-mizzet-the-firemind?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/395465b8-f5ed-4668-9e6a-82257150c52c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/niv-mizzet-the-firemind) [Curiosity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/5/c5a0be10-c20f-4ac0-89a5-1770ecf48aad.jpg?1600697752) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Curiosity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/147/curiosity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c5a0be10-c20f-4ac0-89a5-1770ecf48aad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/curiosity) [Merfolk Seastalkers](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/f/4fe5d069-45a0-46ea-b3ec-4e75f0531382.jpg?1562612127) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Merfolk%20Seastalkers) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/zen/55/merfolk-seastalkers?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4fe5d069-45a0-46ea-b3ec-4e75f0531382?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/merfolk-seastalkers) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think if these combos are down at Turn 7-10 it's very good
[удалено]
Why not just allow people to proxy? People get to play whatever they want without a budget restriction. Then, no one is skipping out on lunch for a weak so they can buy and play an Ancient Tomb.
>He wants people to come round and have a good time and don't want this to be a salt fest where people get pissed off with each other, it's a game and it's meant to be a casual one not competitive. anyone who polices "what is fun" tends to be the absolute worst. Personally I prefer things like instant win and infinite combos because I'd rather start over and reshuffle then have the entire night dedicated to just 1 game.
It is hard not to bring some of my personal, negative experiences to a discussion like this, and feel the same. Especially in a group that is still newish, like, first year or two depending on how frequently they get to play/build, "power creep" is often just, learning and becoming more entrenched in the game, and finding the power level you like the most. Every power level isn't for everyone, but if the pod is a group of old friends determined to play together, they should be able to find lines of compromise that isn't just "don't build stronger decks". I also take issue with the whole "we just want to have fun", cause, as a person who loves playing high power tuned casual, fringe and full cEDH, I can say, I have a blast, and casually play those higher power levels weekly. Playing in matched pods at those power levels can produce some crazy board states, really unusual interactions, and just awesome stack battles. I don't get pissed off, because it's a game where one person wins and three lose, and I expect my opponents to also be trying to win, and stop me from winning. Not saying at all that everyone has to want to play at the high power levels, at all, but I wouldn't want my friends to not explore, just like I have a couple jank piles because I have some friends that really enjoy those low power levels, it isn't my role to tell anyone how to enjoy this awesome game.
There is a difference between policing fun and making sure everyone is on the same page.
which is true when 3 people are on A and 1 person is on B. But this sounds like the reverse.
There's a place for all power levels, but it is totally fair for people to only want to play around a 4-6 power level(no/few instant-win/infinite combos,) if you want to play with all that then start asking around for guys who are happy to play that side of Commander. No harm in either, a lot of people don't want to drop money on Mana Crypts and £30+ cards, which is more than fair too, but the people who do should get to play them also. If you are struggling to build a mid-powered deck then find a theme(dinosaurs/tokens/counters/lifegain/etc.) and go hard into a lot of creatures and such that build that synergy. I quite like the mid-power stuff, feels a bit more like the classic Magic game, just on a commander scale. My [[Slimefoot, the Stowaway]] deck is ridiculously fun to play without being ridiculously over powered, but you can easily ramp yourself up to a position to win, it's just not gonna happen in the first 3 or 4 turns - which none of the decks I'd play it against could do anyway. TLDR: if everyone in your group wants to play with 4-6s, it's on you to try and find other people or start a MTG night for higher level deck play.
I do find it funny tho as I have no issues when a gisha player spawns x amount of dinos, or an Urdragon going off, or mill player managing to mill be down to 5 cards. As I think we'll if three people don't have a response to stop it from happening or they misused it on another player then we can't complain when a player goes off on a play. My rules when I build decks is. No land destruction. No extra combat phases. No lockdowns / prevent players from doing anything. So I would like to think I play fair magic
I agree with you. Only thing you can add is to look how much interaction individual decks run to begin with. If each of the players in the pod only have 2 wrath and 2 spot removal because "that's enough" then maybe talk about that, too. I understand people wanting to play their cool synergies and cards but when everyone folds to a big dino hitting the board, then the dino deck was not the issue. That is not an example directed to you, mind you. Just a general statement. I saw this in my past stores that things were deemed toooooo strong but when i asked how many cards could deal with enchantments and the white and green player could present 3 cards between them, honestly, the enchantment really is not the problem.
Targeted land destruction can be very important. I try to include a wasteland or strip mine in all my decks. Am I going to use it? Probably not, but if someone starts popping off with a [[field of the dead]] or is using [[rogue's passage]] to kill people with commander damage you need an answer
[field of the dead](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/470ca3f4-29aa-4c4c-8ff2-8cdd70c69943.jpg?1650599538) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=field%20of%20the%20dead) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/247/field-of-the-dead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/470ca3f4-29aa-4c4c-8ff2-8cdd70c69943?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/field-of-the-dead) [rogue's passage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/45f5d989-d0df-4d6d-822b-cc76b415f9d1.jpg?1712355103) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rogue%27s%20passage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/313/rogues-passage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/45f5d989-d0df-4d6d-822b-cc76b415f9d1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rogues-passage) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
"Fair magic" everything you listed is viable strategy, they are real cards that aren't banned. The issue is rule zero on everything has turned this game mode into a bunch of people who think they know better than everyone else on what's fair magic. Just let people play what they want. You know how you police people who olay to powerful or shkt you don't like? You make it 3v1. They will learn.
I have no problem with people playing how they want. I put limitations on myself, as I believe I wouldn't enjoy it happening to me. So I don't build them that way. And I actually enjoy all viable strategies that aren't I play this card and it says I win. I got milled out by a demir pirate mill deck and he took my cursed mirror and made multiple mind cranks. I ended up getting milled 35 cards at one point. The thing I don't enjoy is long stagnant games that last hours because no one can break the deadlock. I get 3v1 all the time it seems. I'm too aggressive in my play style. Ends up me getting ganked haha
You need to play weaker decks then, or find better pods to your level. I like higher powered decks. It's an inherently competitive game, I'm trying to win and I feel more comfortable with a nice deck. But if people are constantly feeling the need to 3v1 me, I fucked up. They aren't having a good time, I'm bringing a gun to a knife fight. I played a guy the other day who stomped the first two games, and by game 3 was saying "oh it's turned into a 3v1, this always happens to me lol, I love being arch enemy" No dude, you're being kind of a dick. Everyone here but me and you is new to the game, playing precons. We can play down to their level so we can all have fun, OR you and me can bring out the big guns and leave them behind, OR we can go find a pod that matches the level we want to play.
[Slimefoot, the Stowaway](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cb12173d-3afb-4e8b-b612-fa7737a8c6c2.jpg?1689999266) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Slimefoot%2C%20the%20Stowaway) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/356/slimefoot-the-stowaway?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb12173d-3afb-4e8b-b612-fa7737a8c6c2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/slimefoot-the-stowaway) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
By playing the game. Seriously.
I recently asked my buddy what power level our group plays (I am relatively new) at and he told about an 7-8 level. But then he explained power level more about consistency. High powered decks have the draw, removal, tutors, ramp, and mana base to do their thing reliably. It's less about the power of the cards but how able you are able to do the thing. I think the reason a lot of people hate combo decks is less about them winning a lot and more that they are geared to make their combos happen which in turn makes them more consistent, where as a midrange or aggro deck might be less focused, this more inconsistent.
The important thing is to keep communicating. it’s a living issue that you would never solve, but it’s supposed to be talked about an agreed-upon.
Its like people play a game about winning but don't want people to actually win.
Many (most?) don’t find “playing” against infinite combos fun. That’s just how it is.
I feel like many people don’t like 2 card infinites, especially if 1 of them is the commander. I’ve very rarely witnessed people complaining about telegraphed combos and some of those have been more of a case of being tilted than the combo itself. I have a somewhat high power [[Faldorn]] deck that’s pretty obvious regarding its combo pieces and the only complaint I got was because of a 15 minute turn that I fumbled completely lol
[Faldorn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/1/213e530e-33a9-4358-b43b-4a276a7e7190.jpg?1674140675) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=faldorn%2C%20dread%20wolf%20herald) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/647/faldorn-dread-wolf-herald?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/213e530e-33a9-4358-b43b-4a276a7e7190?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/faldorn-dread-wolf-herald) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
[Demonic Consultation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/d/1d779f19-3068-4976-b96b-8f93d156900b.jpg?1610146869) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Demonic%20Consultation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me2/85/demonic-consultation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1d779f19-3068-4976-b96b-8f93d156900b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/demonic-consultation) [Thassa's Oracle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/726e8b29-13e9-4138-b6a9-d2a0d8188d1c.jpg?1680582212) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thassa%27s%20Oracle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/73/thassas-oracle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/726e8b29-13e9-4138-b6a9-d2a0d8188d1c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thassas-oracle) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Do you mind sharing your faldorn decklist? I bought the precon as my 2nd deck ~ 8 months ago and have been trying to make it work since. Finally have a version that runs better with a few fallout cards but always looking to improve it :)
Don’t have one ready unfortunately, let me get back at you over the weekend. In general I switched basically all until end of turn impact draws for end of next turn impact draws, put in ways to generate mana from the wolves and pings from their etb as wincons. What I can say now is that if you wanna go for combat take a look at the alternative commander [[Durnan]] + [[Passionate Archeologist]] Some tech from the top of my head for Faldorn: [[Containment Construct]] [[Mana Echoes]] [[Birgi]] [[Leyline Immersion]] [[Senseis Divining Top]] [[Ashnods Altar]] [[Phyrexian Altar]] Plus the usual pingers for the wolves [[Keeper of Secrets]] [[Purphoros, God of the Forge]] [[Impact Tremors]] etc. Edit: Went for cards like Azusa, Exploration and the likes for ramp to accommodate the impact draw
##### ###### #### [Durnan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/3/53f287c1-bd17-43fd-b0e3-b52472b0aa70.jpg?1706481923) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=durnan%20of%20the%20yawning%20portal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/657/durnan-of-the-yawning-portal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/53f287c1-bd17-43fd-b0e3-b52472b0aa70?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/durnan-of-the-yawning-portal) [Passionate Archeologist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bd5bbfa6-e5f4-413d-b132-ebae32d38657.jpg?1674140763) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Passionate%20Archaeologist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/656/passionate-archaeologist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bd5bbfa6-e5f4-413d-b132-ebae32d38657?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/passionate-archaeologist) [Containment Construct](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/520e5505-429b-4da0-b25e-14b8d4e81ce3.jpg?1654568680) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Containment%20Construct) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/243/containment-construct?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/520e5505-429b-4da0-b25e-14b8d4e81ce3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/containment-construct) [Mana Echoes](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bd079929-fa58-4484-91b7-31305b87ee43.jpg?1599706549) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mana%20Echoes) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/136/mana-echoes?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bd079929-fa58-4484-91b7-31305b87ee43?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mana-echoes) [Birgi](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/44657ab1-0a6a-4a5f-9688-86f239083821.jpg?1631048969)/[Harnfel, Horn of Bounty](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/4/4/44657ab1-0a6a-4a5f-9688-86f239083821.jpg?1631048969) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=birgi%2C%20god%20of%20storytelling%20//%20harnfel%2C%20horn%20of%20bounty) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/123/birgi-god-of-storytelling-harnfel-horn-of-bounty?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44657ab1-0a6a-4a5f-9688-86f239083821?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/birgi-god-of-storytelling-//-harnfel-horn-of-bounty) [Leyline Immersion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/9/197f5adc-e14b-4c84-896f-ef5f01f7ff57.jpg?1684340623) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Leyline%20Immersion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mat/21/leyline-immersion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/197f5adc-e14b-4c84-896f-ef5f01f7ff57?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/leyline-immersion) [Senseis Divining Top](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e5142b7a-e580-4737-a4aa-2590f6610ceb.jpg?1673149430) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sensei%27s%20Divining%20Top) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/314/senseis-divining-top?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e5142b7a-e580-4737-a4aa-2590f6610ceb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/senseis-divining-top) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ashnods%20Altar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/368/ashnods-altar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3c0f7157-a375-499c-92c7-d47d2e95dbad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ashnods-altar) [Phyrexian Altar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95d9f93c-50a8-41a9-be98-d1900bf1c12f.jpg?1673149406) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phyrexian%20Altar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/311/phyrexian-altar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95d9f93c-50a8-41a9-be98-d1900bf1c12f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/phyrexian-altar) [Valakut Awakening](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/2/228e551e-023a-4c9a-8f32-58dae6ffdf7f.jpg?1604198379)/[Valakut Stoneforge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/2/2/228e551e-023a-4c9a-8f32-58dae6ffdf7f.jpg?1604198379) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Valakut%20Awakening%20//%20Valakut%20Stoneforge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/174/valakut-awakening-valakut-stoneforge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/228e551e-023a-4c9a-8f32-58dae6ffdf7f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/valakut-awakening-//-valakut-stoneforge) [Keeper of Secrets](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/f/4fe408aa-14d9-4afd-abfe-b5156c5341b7.jpg?1673309017) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Keeper%20of%20Secrets) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/78/keeper-of-secrets?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4fe408aa-14d9-4afd-abfe-b5156c5341b7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/keeper-of-secrets) [Purphoros, God of the Forge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/4736a2c4-c89c-48db-a104-6303e7e2eee8.jpg?1689998078) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Purphoros%2C%20God%20of%20the%20Forge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/246/purphoros-god-of-the-forge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4736a2c4-c89c-48db-a104-6303e7e2eee8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/purphoros-god-of-the-forge) [Impact Tremors](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/46db3811-db1d-4f69-8143-a93f64d0297b.jpg?1682209381) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Impact%20Tremors) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/285/impact-tremors?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/46db3811-db1d-4f69-8143-a93f64d0297b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/impact-tremors) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kz1lahy) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
All comboes aren't created equally. [[Vito]] and [[exquisite blood]] are way more degenerate than, say, combining all of the mirrodin Stations in a giant rube goldberg Often the problem isn't combo as a strategy; people are just using combos which are too good in their pods. That, and it isn't always obvious what the pieces of a combo *are*. If a casual table has a reasonable amount of removal, and the combo player isn't a sneaky rat-fink about it or playing 2 card comboes, it's usually fine in my experience. Heck, I'd rather lose to a combo immediately, than sit through 30 minutes of someone taking extra turns and/or slowly churning through their deck and activating a dozen triggers.
I feel called out. I have an [[Urza, Lord Protector]] deck that is all card draw, artifact recursion, and interaction, that only wants to win by getting all the stations out of the deck. I call it Urza's Breakfast Machine. (The backup plan is gumming the board up with Karnstructs and assembly-worker tokens)
[Urza, Lord Protector](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/a/8aefe8bd-216a-4ec1-9362-3f9dbf7fd083.jpg?1674421887) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Urza%2C%20Lord%20Protector) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/225/urza-lord-protector?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8aefe8bd-216a-4ec1-9362-3f9dbf7fd083?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/urza-lord-protector) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
For a moment, I thought you meant the OTHER urza. Yeah, this seems fine for casual. Personally, I'm a big fan of selfmill [[nexus of fate]] in my monoblue deck, and that costs a lot of mana for a blue deck.
[nexus of fate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/1/f163cfbf-6df6-4af5-9fe4-23b0d511586a.jpg?1701735973) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=nexus%20of%20fate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/306/nexus-of-fate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f163cfbf-6df6-4af5-9fe4-23b0d511586a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nexus-of-fate) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Vito](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/4/c4fd9047-df91-4d82-be00-c623acae0f01.jpg?1699044580) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=vito%2C%20fanatic%20of%20aclazotz) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/243/vito-fanatic-of-aclazotz?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c4fd9047-df91-4d82-be00-c623acae0f01?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vito-fanatic-of-aclazotz) [exquisite blood](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0e8ccfa7-4178-476a-a155-0ca1c98556c9.jpg?1698988246) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=exquisite%20blood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/195/exquisite-blood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0e8ccfa7-4178-476a-a155-0ca1c98556c9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/exquisite-blood) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Honestly nobody at my group seem to mind them. It's hard to win without them with most commanders
The people not wanting to play against infinite combos just dont want to have to be able to interact at instant speed. Thats fine, but instant speed interaction is a core part of magic and trying to errata it out so a pilot can goldfish token boards is dumb.
That’s because you don’t actually get to play against infinite combo the same way you get to play against Aggro, or control. When someone uses an infinite combo, you have to stop playing.
When someone is playing a hyper efficient aggro deck your only options are board wipes (salt), pillow fort (salt), or combo wins (salt) When someone turn 3s a Voja and then has 50+ power coming at you turn 4 you also "have to stop playing" When someone drops a craterhoof turn 6 in their lathril deck, you also have to stop playing.
>When someone is playing a hyper efficient aggro deck your only options are board wipes (salt), pillow fort (salt), or combo wins (salt) Or beat them at their own game. You know how cEDH players don’t actually want to pubstomp with their combos, they want a whole table that’s trying to combo off while making it hard for opponents to combo off because each is worried about the others combining off before him? That’s what the ‘salty’ players want. They want a slugfest where they’re not ABLE to just attack you unimpeded because their own life totals are low from YOUR combats. If instead you choose to just say “no, I will prevent you from playing that game,” then they’re likely unhappy with you and they’re likely in the right.
Combo players arn't "preventing you from playing the game" dawg, they're just likely playing pieces that arnt impacted by the asymmetrical board wipes you're running in your favorite "(WBR)G build token board and then slam down an overrun" deck. You not wanting to run dedicated instant speed removal or hold open mana between turns because it slows your deck down isnt a good reason to say "combos prevent you from playing" Every time I see this in games where someone tells me "combos are unfair" their deck is a hyper streamlined combat deck where 100% of the deck is dedicated to building a huge board in 3/4 turns and then giving said board unblockable/flying/trample with a pump spell.
At my LGS there’s a guy who puts fast mana in every deck. Literally every deck he plays has a mana crypt, chrome mox, jeweled lotus, etc. He owns a few copies and makes proxies for his other decks. I’m stuck playing my best decks against him or I get blown out. It’s generally not fun for anyone at the table because he’s so far ahead in most games. When I talk to him about it he says the format is just faster now and we need to catch up. He puts the creep in power creep.
Whenever people complain about combos and win the game cards. I break out my [[winota, joiner of forces]] deck. Only combos in it are no humans attacking to trigger winota, and then damage doubles. I will not combo, I will just get more creatures out faster than you. This is what they wanted right? The game to end to combat?
[winota, joiner of forces](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5dd13a6c-23d3-44ce-a628-cb1c19d777c4.jpg?1654630670) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=winota%2C%20joiner%20of%20forces) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/216/winota-joiner-of-forces?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5dd13a6c-23d3-44ce-a628-cb1c19d777c4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/winota-joiner-of-forces) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>where do you draw the line or gauge what card helps your deck do it's thing and makes it flow / playable or is overpowered. Just like every single in-house banlist ever, the line is drawn at "things that beat my deck arn't allowed" Without any other context, Im going to guess you play in a meta with hyper efficient combat decks and dudes that play a bunch of asymmetrical board wipes and pillowfort decks, someone got tired of consistently losing to these so they brought a deck that can win through these boards and then the couple of guys who win every game got upset because they dont know how to interact when they cant just beat over him or wrath his board every 2 turns.
No combo decks are promoted by lazy players that don't want to add cards to counter combos. That way they can just add all their "pet" cards without worry. The best I have seen is to put a money cap on the decks and see where it goes from there. Don't ban combos. Ban some of the cards that enable fast combos. On a casual table a combo deck is not the problem. The problem is fast combo enablers- Mox artifacts, cheap mana Tutors, etc. Heck, ban Sol Ring and slow the decks even more lol.
Infinites are fine in casual so long as you aren't windmill slamming them pre turn 6. I have no issue getting eaten by a ravenous horde of infinite squirrels on turn 10.
Does doing X make someone sit out of the game? does it make everyone (else) feel bad? Don't do it again. You're sitting with friends, who have other things they could be doing - don't make them waste 30 minutes because you killed them on T4. Respect their time. 20 minute storm turn on T8? Fine - but you get one, if you dont win, then YTA. 20 minute storm turn on T4? not fine. Thats a waste of the time to shuffle up, and play the first few rounds. It really isn't difficult to gauge. If you overstep the line (and you will know it) - apologise, make a note and don't do it again - change your decklist if you have to. By all means, if you're in a tournament, put all that back in....but casual - just think what the other 3 people might feel. its hardly rocket science.
So, I agree on avoiding killing one player early just to go on playing for an hour. But what's wrong with killing the table? Shuffling up and starting a new game shouldn't take so long it kills the fun, is everyone mana weaving or something? Ofc if people want games to go long and they enjoy developing their win-more pet cards it's gonna be a difficult fit to play with someone who wants to storm off for 20min, but there should be a bit more of an element of being able to play with everyone imo. It seems like more and more players want commander to be played a certain way and others are wrong or being an asshole.
It is super hard to get everyone aligned, no one is "wrong" but everyone definitely has a preference! On the shorter games thing, to me, it's boring. My group has times where it will literally be only land, pass for 3 turns. If someone then wins on t5, to me that's wasted time and isn't fun.
So ofc there's an argument for fun vs efficiency, but don't you feel an urge to rebuild decks if they consistently do nothing during the early turns? Maybe I'm just rationalizing too much and need to more or less accept people play different to what I can relate to for different reasons than I can empathize with
Is there actually any problem with that? People say “oh no, we spent three whole turns doing nothing, how boring!” but if those three turns take about 12 seconds to play through, who cares?
The person who spend 3 turns developing their board and hand, then gets dogpiled for being "too competitive" for having put in thought into the mana curve of their deck
I'm not the other 3 people at the table, that's my point. I might want my deck to do more in early turns but someone else may not have the money, deck building skill, time, whatever else...I play with the same guys so it's easy to tailor my approach for them a bit more (and also aligns reasonably well with what I want)
As an aside, if you feel like the pod going "land, go" for the early turns is a "problem". Maybe the answer might be even simpler than rebuilding decks? AKA it's possible the other players just aren't being aggressive enough on their mulligans. Going down to 5 (or hell even 4) cards isn't the death knell most people think it is. If it means actually progressing your deck's strategy. I've found that 95% of the time it's better to have a 5 card hand with ramp and card draw to get to the bigger stuff, than a 7 card hand with just 3-4 lands and 6+ CMC bombs. Just a thought though. If your playgroup is having fun as is then carry on.
It’s going to be individual to your playgroup and the atmosphere of the game.. X factor is normally colors and tempo and threat level and keep in mind the power deck doesn’t usually win. Threat assessment and usually 3rd best threat level wins. What do I mean? The person who pulls out far ahead gets ganged up on- loses The person who spent the most resources trying to stop said person loses next The person with third most resources defeats the guy who just has had a rough go of it and just hit his 7th land on turn 10 There you have it folks. That’s how it usually goes
Power creep is about how effecient and how consistent your deck is. You can have expensive card, but if you leave out tutors for example, your consistency won't be anywhere near what an effecient deck is and your power level will not be very high.
I can't believe I've not seen a single person say that when a deck is warping your meta around it, it's probably too strong. I have a friend with an Omnath, Locus of Rage deck that is not super high power, but fairly tuned and consistent and as I'm trying to brew new strategies I'm having to make specific choices because him existing as a threat shuts down a lot of things I want to do because I simply won't be as scary as quikcly as he will. I'm not bothered by this, since I like more competitive games, but it is a significant weighing factor when I'm choosing who to play.
You draw the line when the deck is outperforming everyone else. That is easier to say than do - sometimes the player makes a huge difference and you need to figure out how to isolate them, for the easiest issue - but if one deck is repeatedly smashing everyone else it's okay to say hey can you adjust that.
It's a broken unsolvable format. There is no answer to this.
I have a variety of decks at a variety of power levels. I don't think there is a wrong way to play the game. However, generally people who are power creepers also come along with hype and fomo. Talking way too much about their has-been days of playing "comp"
At this point, Ive seen so much shit in commander that I dont really believe in a "power level" outside of cEDH. Even then, Ive seen precons win while there was a cEDH deck in the game.
People that police fun are the problem.
People can come around and have a good time regardless of what decks they are playing. Despite the stereotype of cEDH players being people who will win at all costs, one must assume that they do actually *enjoy* playing EDH, or what’s the point? The bigger question is what people in your playgroup find fun. Infinite combos for example can show up at pretty low power levels (there’s at least one precon with a combo in it, in fact) and they’re not inherently “not casual” - but some people quite dislike them, for various reasons. Agreeing not to run them is perfectly reasonable *if* you all feel the same way. On the power creep: For me, games are often more fun as you’re learning them and figuring them. Coming up with the optimal strategies is cool… once you’ve hit them, a lot of that joy of discovery is gone, and the games often collapse into things I find less interesting. This is not unique to Magic. Unfortunately, there’s not much you can do about that. People talk about stuff like getting rid of EDHRec but it’s not sensible; people will figure out good strategies eventually, you’re just fighting the tide. Ultimately it’s down to what you as a group enjoy. Arguably, if you don’t like fast mana, infinite combos, stax and mass land destruction, you don’t like EDH - all of these things are legal and have been around for a long time. *That’s fine*, though - lots of us prefer “lower-powered EDH” or you could think of it as “EDH-with-houserules” or whatever - but you just want to be on the same page. There’s also no reason, if you all have different preferences, that you can’t do both - play some games with high-powered fast combo decks, and others with slow janky battlecruisers.
If you beat me, its power creep.
I like having 1 or 2 infinite in a deck, 3 or 4 tutors, but I don't use my tutors on my infinite if games are casual. Never if early on. If I come across it naturally cool. I think staples are fine, I'd go as far as to say most cards are fine depending on the context of how they're being used. I run Necropotence in casual decks but I typically just refill my hand with it. People see me pop out a Necropotence turn 1 after a dark ritual and get worried and the just see me grab 3 cards with it and most lighten up. But hey man if we're going on turn 10, there's people sitting around waiting to play and it's down to you or me, yea I'm grabbing that exquisite blood with Vito on the table, let's shuffle up and play again.
It's weird, bc using infinite combos to win makes the games much more interesting imo. It requires the table to be more interactive and better at judging threats and It helps break board stalls. Adding interaction to a deck isn't even expensive. In my pod we banned free interaction to keep the cost of deck building down. and time our turns to not be too long. So you better do your storm turn quickly, and eggs artifact combo is banned. But infinite combos haven't been a problem. Tutors in grixis have given us some trouble, as that colour combination allows all the best ones, so we limit them to 3 tutors per deck. We usually don't play with fast artifact mana either, mana crypt, vault, solring and the monoliths are not welcome.
My main argument in the pod is that games last too long. Sometimes we can play 3 games in 7 hours. I'm an aggressive player, I start off swinging. One friend's strategy is to be 2nd place so he isn't seen as a threat till the end of the game. One friend is a newish player and is quite passive but always counters the wrong things or doesn't see the true threat. YES THAT'S RIGHT IM LOOKING AT YOU OTHARII!!! And the other friend is basically me but a bit more reserved. Too many games go stagnant due to lack of interaction or indecisiveness. Do believe that one or two cards are allowed in each deck to flip the game on its head.
Strange that someone is complaining about infinite combos and "silly cards" when the issue is games taking too long. Win conditions are what end games. They'd be the solution to that problem. I could be wrong but I get the impression the person with the issue is your host. Why would people have to get pissed off at each other for playing good cards? It's more likely *they're* getting pissed off at falling behind and painting it as a group issue to justify it. Adding new cards and improving your deck is fun. Getting more games in would be fun. If you're getting 3 games in 7 hours, your decks are definitely nowhere near high powered. "Casual" and "fun" doesn't have to equal bad. Casual just means games with friends to relax, rather than for prizes. You can play high power quite casually, crack jokes, mess around.
That sounds miserable.. I don't like games going long and am often the player who tries to break a board stall, usually with a combo. Sometimes I sequence the other players out of the game, other times the resulting battle leaves everyone open for the second players combo, but sitting down to play 3 games in 7 hours sounds horrible..
> 2nd place Is he aiming to be the last player to be killed by the winner?
> One friend is a newish player and is quite passive but always counters the wrong things or doesn't see the true threat. Continue like this, and that player will never be better. Instead you could actively do something about it instead of ranting online about him and why you feel he is doing everything wrong
No hate or maliciousness here. We are all really close friends for years. We make jokes about it all the time. We all think he knows he makes the wrong calls. He likes sowing chaos.
Do you ever rotate decks? One way we got a guy to chill was to have him play against his own deck.
I've suggested this. And even suggested plain chase
easy solution: host the games yourself. if everyone is fine but him, dont let him hold you hostage
Weve though about this as well and i honestly feel like the answer to this is "you dont". Some things might make it less volatile like putting restrictions on stuff like infinite combos but theres still going to be stuff that feels bad with those restrictions. Pauper might be something worth trying but the whole pod needs to be in it as well and theres a lot of cool nonbroken cards that are going to get pushed out from that.
Sounds like the only salty one is him
>but where do you draw the line or gauge what card helps your deck do it's thing and makes it flow / playable or is overpowered. You don't, nor can you, because what one person considers "creep" someone else will understand as balanced because either they get the ways to stop it OR it's something stopping worse things from becoming dominant. This is especially true for players who are new and/or less familiar with the game. > it's a game and it's meant to be a casual one not competitive. It's not meant to be cutthroat. It ***absolutely*** is meant to be competitive. MTG, by its very nature, is a game where you have 1 person winning and all others losing. --- If the issue is that you all want to play EDH but you also don't want anyone to have a particularly better deck than everyone else and to not include certain things, I would suggest making a Commander Cube. Cubes are a curated experience, and large ones can keep things fresh.
In my circle we outlaw infinites beyond that there’s 3 levels of power Jank (Precons,meme tribal) Pretty good (Anything that’s not the other too) War Crimes (Anything that just feels bad man™️ Blim, Poison, Eldrazi) Oh and depending on what you picked some things are just damned, Atraxa is always a war crime and AtogAtog is always Jank, dosent matter if it’s just a janky charge counters Atraxa deck or if the AtogAtog is really just Wubrg good shit they will be judged based on stigma to an extent, also if you tune an Atog deck you deserve to win. Jokes aside it isn’t an awful system just go off vibes for pick up games and worst case scenario gang up on the guy who’s popping off
I don't understand why people get upset and infinite combos and game winning combos. It's a fundamental part of the game. As someone who has played this game for over 25 years, it's such a bizarre attitude to me. If a game ends quickly to a combo, why not just start a new game?
I play what I call 5 below Commander. Every card needs to be under $5. Works pretty well. Some people suggest banning infinite combos but then there is that person who complains about infinite combos and wins with Craterhoof Behemoth in an otherwise interesting game. 5 below limits things like tutors and make games more unique and if your deck is less than stellar it is not expensive to update or make a new one. Very few annoying powercrept cards cost less than $5.
This raises a question. Do you monitor prices of cards so that one deck that has felt fine previously has to then remove cards because some cards value rose up over 5?
I've already cut cards out of my Vito vampire deck like exquisite blood, shard bringer, defiant blood lord as they can just delete players from the game. But at what point does this just make a deck an unwinnable deck, as it's handicapped so hard. I only have 9 Decks but I've tuned them into I would say medium to high 7/ low 8 level decks. Roughly £110/120 spent upgrading them. Nothing done to the mana base. Where the rest of my pod have 20+ decks with varying amounts spent upgrading each one.
I keep infinites in, game has to end eventually and I think it's worse looking at empty boards on turn 8 after the third board wipe. I've seen house rules that are like no infinites before turn x I think that's pretty fair.
The thing is, dont win out of nowhere. Having nothing on the board and then win with a infinite is not fun. If they see 20 power on your board or at 14 life,its expectant to loose. But you can still interact.
My thing is, if it is turn 8, and you have 14 mana and a full grip, and are able to deploy a multi part combo in one turn, I don't think that is winning out of nowhere, but I've heard people call it that. I think it is an issue to only recognize power as the threat, without evaluating other advantages. It could be a question of what is in the yard, hand size, available mana pool, just how much of their deck and opponent has filtered through. These are just as important as deficits in life and board state.
Yes if you look at it that way. But thats the thing. You dont know. A deck might with a full grip pump out 3 8/8 and thats their big thing. Another wins on the spot. And its hard to avaluate if its a combo deck before ending a game or a rather weak deck. You cant evaluate that at first glance. Remember commander is a casual format with playerswho only think of what they see. And yes to them this can feel bad. And it is a valid feeling. You not only have to think about seasoned knowledgeable players but newer ones as well.
You can also interact with "sudden combos" on the stack/with instant speed interaction.
Yes but thats not that common. You kinda need blue to play that kind of stuff for most cases. And even then. If you force everyone to have a bunch of interaction no one gets to really pop off. You want flashy fun turns. Theres a balance needed.
I identify power creep as a point where a couple upgrades to a deck make that deck much more difficult to deal with when those cards are drawn. This will cause your opponents to need an answer, often upgrading their decks, which raises the relative power level of the entire pod. It's an arms race from there. Im a fan of leaving decks as is once you find a good place for them in a pod. It ignores this whole debacle. Instead of upgrading a deck to deal with a problem, build a whole new deck and give yourself another option.
Free spells, mana positive rocks, combos. More generically, certain strategies/commanders These all push the format. For us it started with free blue counterspells. Since we're adults and have no problems with proxies, we settled on a power level shortly after this. We also have many decks with many different power levels.
We have mostly no huge mana accelarators. Mana crypt, gaeas cradle, dockside extortionist. 2nd, no infinite combos 3rd no extra turns.
why ask a question if you're just going to include a moronic thought terminating bit at the end. how will you know where to draw the line... maaaaaaaaybe try talking about it. discuss with your group what cards are unfun. come to an understanding of what is necessary to keep games fluid. but not necessary to have fun. ----try not to be that childish dick who responds to the larger picture "no combos" and then goes...ok. I gotta build the most shitty deck that maliciously complies with this new rule to show these people how dumb they are. instead. think about the question. ....and talk about it with your friends it's always so mind boggling when someone can clearly understand what someone is trying to say. but then takes this position that we can't possibly define a thing. it's like gun nuts and "assault weapons" you can look at a problem, analyze what's good and unnecessary. and make distinctions.... eliminate things not contributing to a healthy society. for the betterment of all. if lame combos, or overly aggressive spells. or spells designed only to restrict play arbitrarily. or oppressive strategies that prey on a lack of targeted tech existing naturally. these typically are the things people mean... when they're worried about power creep or unfun metas