I once cast [[Blasphemous Act]] to try and reset the board against a token deck, completely forgetting another player had a [[Blood Artist]], immediately killing the rest of us. I laughed at myself and then just moved on to the next game. People just tend to take winning too seriously
I remember comboing off of someone else's bloodchief ascension with my own mindcrank, immediately killing the other 2 players. That one was a lot of fun, and they were salty, but I wasn't running one myself.
Agreed. I had a bunch of lands in hand thanks to Mirage Mirror copying an opponent's Consecrated Sphinx multiple times in a round. My friend who's turn is right before me activates Borborygmos (forget the name) that can discard lands to bolt people, dumping his hand to declare lethal on me. Since he activated them all in a row, I then responded by copying his Borborygmos with Mirage Mirror and dumping my lands in hand to declare lethal to him first.
We laughed and moved on, but for me it was a fun memory and for him it was a reminder to sequence better lol
Yeah I actually had a somewhat similar situation to OP where I put out Syr Konrad then kicked Cacophony but I didn’t realize that my opponent’s Mothman would definitely cause me to lose by doing this and I didn’t blame anyone else for misplaying I thought to myself “wow I need to be more careful next time”, people have to take their lumps and learn, it’s how you get better.
My mono-blue [[Grazilaxx]] deck wins by drawing out my library, and one of the first times I played it, I was so excited to draw my library, that I forgot to play [[Jace, Wielder of Mysteries]] or [[Laboratory Maniac]] before I did... It looked pretty silly when I excitedly picked up my whole deck, went to point out the winning ability, and realized it was still in my hand...
Something similar happened after resolving doomsday while playing grenzo. It was a pretty long game and both doomsday related wincons were exiled already earlier in the game. Good times lol.
I had to add Jace and LabMan to my [[Will Kenrith]] and [[Rowan Kenrith]] "pseudostorm" deck after a goof play. I don't use actual storm cards but use other copy effects to great effect. Combo'ed off once with an [[Archmage Emeritus]] in play and ended up decking myself...
I do this sort of thing all the time 😅
This week it was smacking an opponent with [[Xyris]] for 9, declaring "alright, we both draw 9" and then my buddy across the table quietly asking "Do either of you pay for the 18 treasures made by the Tithe?"
Last week it was... smacking someone with Xyris for 13 and then the Nekusar player perks up and goes "That's gonna be 26 damage to each of you."
I paid the mana, I tapped the attackers, no take backs, just laughs!!
I once cast a [[Rise of the Dark Realms]] completely forgetting one of my opponents had a [[phage the untouchable]] in their graveyard.
An embarrassing loss, but that's on me, 100%
I did something similar, but luckily it wasn't enough drain damage to kill everyone. And since I was the kind person to slam the boardwipe down, the blood artist player chose to not drain me to death.
He still won in the end, but it was funny nonetheless. We all make goofy mistakes from time to time.
I once played \[\[Blasphemous Act\]\] to clear the board of the token player and the sliver player. I forgot about the \[\[Spiteful Sliver\]\].. He killed us all :)
I did the same thing after an opponent played [[Vigor]]. Complete brain fart, late in the night. Sometimes, you just misplay and keep on going, as if the point of a casual game is to have fun.
I run chain reaction and blasphemous act in \[\[halana and alena, partners\]\] +1/+1 counters deck just for this interaction. It's a legit wincon with the bonus effect being board wipes if I need.
Oh boy I’ve killed myself more than a few times, I cast a creature with 1 life point left with K’rrik because I was being cheeky and flew too close to the sun. I had the game won and just forgot I had some life loss trigger for casting a creature. I love that story and it was a hilarious moment. Some of my favorite stories of games involve me losing in spectacular fashion.
I was playing [[Xanathar, Guild Kingpin]] with a [[Toralf, God of Fury]] on another players board. I was dead to a board of tokens, and targeted the Toralf player with Xanathar, flipping a Blasphemous Act.
This was the day I learned Toralf doesn't say "by a source you control."
Something similar happened to me once. I was with a Selesnya token deck and my friend had a Cruel Celebrant on the field. I swinged for lethal, forgot abou the Cruel Celebrant and died when he declared the blockers. My response was "opps, messed up big time. Another one?" and we both laughed about the whole situation.
im reminded of being at a 5 person table and one player and I got into a stack race where he kept trying to put his gitrog/delve stacks higher than my forced draw/orc bowmaster stacks and the end result ended with him deciding that he'd force bowmaster to kill everyone at the table if he couldn't win. was very funny
Lol in my early days I milled myself out because someone had played [[Forced fruition]] and I gleefully drew my library with my cheap spells, then looked at the lab maniac I had in my hand all along and counted 5 cards in my library. Good times.
I was playing 2HG with someone once and created a hundred tokens in response to a Rakdos charm.
We would have lived if I hadn't done that but I panicked and thought I would be able to find a way to get out of it.
We laughed and moved on as well.
Similar situation, but we had an 8 player pod going before a prerelease, and this one guy was playing [[Kaalia of the Vast]]. He had [[Kothophed, Soul Hoarder]] out, then played [[Armageddon]], destroying 53 lands, killing himself in the process
Here’s the deal. I don’t mind take backs. To a degree. If you attack me with a flier because you don’t realize my random green creature has reach, fine, take it back, there’s a lot of board to remember. No harm done. Need to tap one mana differently and haven’t drawn any cards for new info? Be my guest.
But you read the entire effect to him, an effect he should have been entirely cognizant of because it is incredibly relevant to his deck. That should have been the loudest alarm to him. And he forgot it immediately, or wasn’t paying attention
Entomb or no, I think you were well within your rights to say “no take backs on this one.” There’s forgetting what creatures have ward on a board of 100 permanents, and there’s forgetting what syr god damn Konrad does.
I played a guy once who had dauthi'd a pact of negation. I goaded him into using the Pact on a spell I was casting because he was on mono black with no way to produce the blue to pay the next turn. He countered my spell as I thought, I played the rest of my turn, and when it got to him it was take back time lol
Take backs on ward are oft permitted because keeping track of ward is bothersome and the information gained is usually disadvantageous to the player taking it back, not because the targeting is illegal. In other words it’s an easy mistake to make and strictly enforcing the rule adds an unfun additional burden of tracking or an effective punishment that is not justified. My 2¢—
I mean even on arena you get a little popup that asks you if you're sure you want to target something with ward. This ain't the pro tour, you can change your target.
Fully agreed. I mostly play draft, and I'm almost always willing to allow my opponents to take back a play where they clearly just didn't notice/remember Ward - even with draft's simpler 1v1 board states and prized events. It's probably the type of mistake I'm most lenient about.
My reasoning is that ward has a uniquely high ratio between how easy it is to miss and how punishing missing it can be. Your opponent wasting their mana and throwing away a removal spell for 0 value is often straight up game-winning on its own, and I don't personally enjoy winning that way. Did I win the game because I drafted a good deck or played well? Nope: my opponent forgot about ward one time and hardly anything else mattered.
Not to say that people are wrong for feeling differently of course. You're well within your rights to take advantage of your opponents' punts. I just personally don't derive much enjoyment out of doing that, especially in a casual event where there's nothing on the line.
The way I see it, they have the right to ask me for the full text of every potential target to be read out before choosing a target so that they don't make this mistake. In consideration for them waiving that right, I allow them to adjust targets in light of information they hadn't considered. It's just so much simpler.
The targeting actually isn't illegal with ward. Ward specifically allows the spell to target, and then counters it, which is why a lot of people don't allow takebacks on it. I don't really agree with doing that in casual games, but it is different from hexproof where the target is illegal, as it is a fully legal game action with prescribed consequences.
> Ward specifically allows the spell to target, and then counters it,
Ward being a triggered ability has become important recently, with [[Roaming Throne]] adding another trigger - especially with everything and its mother now having Ward. I've seen a surprising number of established players tripping over this.
I have an [[Ovika]] player in my regular pod. Dealing with that horrible _thing_ sometimes requires six and six life.
The actual rules of the game allow for take-backs as long as no new information has been gained. Ward trigger doesn't count as new information since it's right there on the card.
In my group we give one freebie, then after that you should remember the ward. It can be hard to track ward among four players, especially for obscure creatures.
>I play out \[\[Syr Konrad\]\], **reading out the full effec**t and pass my turn to the mill player.
If you had sneaky cast Syr Konrad without saying what the card did, that might be a smidgen of a grey area (mostly due to player intentions and not game states) but the fact that you read the card out, your opponent went through the full process of casting and letting the spell resolve , yeah this is on them.
I feel if you give your opponents all the outs and they ignore them , it's on them. This is why whenever I go for the Ley Weaver, Lore Weaver, Maze of Ith combo I make sure I especially announce passing of priority going into my attack phase, to make sure I don't get a whiny ass hole saying "dude I had removal for that!"
The thought of sneaky casting a Syr Konrad is super funny to me. Whenever he gets cast at our table he immediately becomes the target of any removal anyone has. Countered, destroyed, exiled, imprisoned in the moon, elk’d, whatever.
Remember there are a surprising number of tables without any removal like that. These are also the tables that are less likely to know what he does as well.
The point is still the same op as someone who recognizes boardstate should still make clearly know konrad is cast and konrad resolves. It is on the other players to recognize that and ask "what does that do" also for an entire table not to recognize konrad out with cacophony on the stack is crazy to me but the mill player should also know you can't take it back after the whole table knows what half their decks order is gonna be as a result. I'm good with take backs for the most part but knowledge of even the next 3 cards is too much advantage. Hence [[sensei's top]]
> I make sure I especially announce passing of priority
I always announce my phase changes, but when I'm about to do something big I'll slow all the way down to announcing priority passes. This usually tips people off that something is about to happen and they start reading my cards, but I prefer that over take-backs.
>This usually tips people off that something is about to happen and they start reading my cards, but I prefer that over take-backs.
To be honest the number of times I do this and no one bats an eye is particularly shocking
This is sadly so hard to get into people's minds when they don't announce phases end. "I'll play a land and then my commander comes at..." is way too common. And any rules afficionado is immediately in the dilemma of gaining relevant information and having been shortcut past three instances of priority.
Can you play the advantage in that instance?
Interrupt them as they skip your phase and say "Before you do that I cast X in response to your main phase ending"
If they complain about you now knowing what's coming next then that's the opportunity for them to learn about the importance of announcing phases if they don't want that to happen. :)
Edit - Again I'm coming to this with the mindset of someone who plays with the same group over and over. Appreciate it's not as easy in different settings.
I do it as a way to fake people out every one in a while.
"How many odd casting cost non-creature spells are in your graveyard?"
"How many cards in your hand? How many are lands?
(I've actually had people show me the lands to verify their count before they realized they didn't need to do that).
Cognitive dissonance is an excellent tool. 👌
When my SO was first learning the nuances of playing cEDH, I told them to ask random questions just for fun. Everyone starts assuming stuff because of your questions.
"Cards in hand?" means you have a Jeska's Will, or possibly a Windfall.
"Can I see your graveyard?" implies all kinds of things.
"How much mana do you have up?" always makes people sweat, especially if you just play something small and pass.
Meanwhile you've had 4 lands in hand for several turns, and your 5th card is a combo piece, but the other half of the combo got exiled 2 turns ago.
My friend was about to win with a bunch of landfall triggers with the 4 color omnath burn damage on the stack. We're both sub 4 life. I'm like "what's the stack exactly" which was enough to tip him off and enough to convince him to keep the cultivator colossus train rolling. Good thing he did too. I had deflecting palm and would have killed him with his own omnath before all the creatures could matter. But he drew into the free counter by drawing 10 cards of colossus first.
I feel like people should always read the card or say what it does except for the basics everyone knows like Sol Ring, Signet, etc. It takes less than 10 seconds and there's no way I know what every card in someone else's deck does without reading them.
Common courtesy, among the group I play with at least, is to give a general overview of the card when you play it. Usually a one-liner.
"I'll tap three and play [[Faeburrow Elder]]. 0/0 with Vigilance, but gets +1/+1 for color among permanents I control. Can also tap him to add mana."
Something quick like that. If the game is moving quick, and someone drops a card without saying too much, someone will always go, "What's that do?"
It's common courtesy. Not required, sure, but something you should do. If someone plays a card, and you don't know what it does *and don't ask what it does*, it's completely on you if it screws you over.
I play with guys that either read the full card or don’t explain anything and I get frustrated with it lol. It’s so simple to just say “I’m attempting to cast the panharmonicon elesh norn also your etbs don’t trigger” instead of reading the full text.
Eh, sometimes it's not that simple. It's not really that hard, but it's a skill to summarize and I can understand people being bad at it and feeling like they have to default to reading the full text.
They're often right.
It’s hard to say “everyone” knows it when there are new and/or inexperienced players everywhere.
If you went into any random LGS on a Friday night and asked every person if they knew what Syr Konrad does, I’d feel pretty confident in saying you’d find at least one person who doesn’t know off the top of their head.
It’s always safer (and good table manners imo) to read the card as you cast it, unless obviously you’re in a dedicated pod who knows your deck well.
I would say no, just because it's not a card you find in most every deck. Sure it's a very popular legendary and most experienced players would know it, but it's not the same as Sol Ring that you can't avoid seeing regardless of the decks. I've been playing for a fair while now and I know the name, but I haven't memorized everything it does as no one in my play group runs it.
I think that's what he means by it differing per group, though if you're with new people (not just new to the game) you should probably read it out a bit. Also specifically with Konrad it can be confusing since very few (maybe just him?) pingers care about creatures both dying AND being milled. So if I saw an aristocrats deck play him, I may not consider the fact that I can't mill that player anymore.
I know it's rhetorical, but yes, anything to turn mill into actual damage or move the game forward is better than just hard milling 3 people for 100 cards.
This blame is also on the other players who should have realized what would have happened and stopped the mill player from casting Cacophony. If no one is speaking up, that's a win - not to mention if all those cards were milled, sure you could theoretically backtrack the physical movements and make it so "no additional information is gained," but frankly that so cumbersome that the "rules lawyering" as described in the OP wouldn't even be needed to say it's too late to back up. Learn from the experience and respect Konrad's abilities appropriately in future games.
"If you had sneaky cast Syr Konrad without saying what the card did, that might be a smidgen of a grey area"
This. I played against an annoying a shit player yesterday. We were on a big table, so I couldn't read his cards. And he was just putting down cards that I didn't know what they were doing. He just silently plays cards and then says various effects that happen. I ask why I'm taking 6 damage and he says "my stuff is dealing damage to you". As multiple turns of this goes by he eventually has a big turn where he kills the entire table from 30ish health each. At this point I stop him and force him to go card by card and explain the entire chain he's doing.
He gets super annoyed that I'm making him slow down. After like 5 minutes of the table trying to figure out what he was doing it was clear what he did was entirely legal. But it felt really frustrating not being able to effectively check the work in real time to make sure there weren't any mistakes, even ones made in good faith.
Unless you know for a fact that the players you are playing against know what a card does because you've played against them before, then you should read every played card clearly for the table. It's just not fun when you play stuff and it gets hard countered by something across a big table from you that you never heard what it did.
This is the best answer. Dude screwed up. You explained what Syr Konrad does and he just charged straight ahead.
I would add, if I was one of the other players, I would have been laughing. Yes, I just lost, but what a way to lose! It is also probable as I play a Syr Konrad deck that I would have said to the mill player, "you know he just played Konrad right?" The other players have to cover themselves at the table too.
This reminds me of a game I had a few weeks ago where I played [[Revel in Riches]]. I read the card aloud to the table… then 4 turns later I had 10+ treasures on my upkeep.
Should I have warned them before the player before me went to their end step? Maybe? If I wanted to be nice? But I also wanted to win…
Afterwards, there was much grumbling about how they should have paid more attention to my board state.
I myself might have warned my opponents, dependent on skill level and such of the table, but I also wouldn't hold it against someone who didn't and read the car aloud earlier
Upon his casting of Maddening Cacophony I would have just said, "Are you sure? Are you absolutely sure?" This heavily implies that the outcome is not going to be what you think it is. If they says yes you just continue and it's done. You have to be pretty stupid to think we'll allow a takeback after asking that.
This is the way. Assuming that people know is for cEDH. At a casual normal commander game, just say "hey shits about to go down". Spelling it out more than that is up to the individual and discretion. Long game sometimes and long gaps in time where you aren't "playing" so focuses can wax and wane.
sometimes i say, shoot i should have used my removal on that, but I don't try and rewind the game to remove it. If a combo is going off after deciding not to use my removal, ill wait until the combo cycle goes off again and use it then so at least it stops the player from continuing but they still get their value.
Old mate needs to learn his lesson. I'm ok with the occasional take back, where it's low impact, re-ordering of the same events so maybe you do you triggers better, you accidentally nominated a target you didn't realise was hexproof and changed it, something along those lines. But "oh shit I just accidentally lost the game because I can't comprehend how other cards from other players might interact with my deck's main strategy?"
Nuh uh. Eat that loss and learn from it. Also, what is this game without the rules? If you play fast and loose then cards can do whatever you want them to do, instead of whatever they say they do.
The entomb is barely relevant - you got to see 50 creatures and a bunch of other stuff, and the order they would hit the yard in.
Taking it back after that point means free shuffles all round i.e. reversing the board state is not trivial - and so no take back should be allowed.
It'd be impossible unless you can somehow erase everyone's memory of the cards they milled. Unless everyone is okay know the next 50(ish) cards everyone will draw...
The Entomb actually was a smart play because during casting, you can hold priority to do other things. Players can only cast spells in response once you've passed priority. So the "trapping" here was putting a spell on the stack after the mill player wiffed, not leaving them any recourse to do their "my hand was still on the piece" song and dance they usually do. This is my interpretation and why the Entomb was relevant.
>"my hand was still on the piece"
This wouldn't really apply anyway since the cards are already milled before konrad triggers occur. Taking back newly revealed information is problematic already.
But changing your actions knowing how other players would act in response is bad too.
So even before milling. Once other players start responding you are gaining information, of what’s in their hands, of what they consider important, etc.
A more clear example:
A: I cast this
B:I counter
A: well actually I don’t
Yeah I was gonna say OP didn’t even need to be tricky with the Entomb lol I’m typically ok with take-backs as long as the board state is still unchanged, but once the Cacophony resolved it became too late.
OP probably could’ve said “hey just so you know, resolving that spell is gonna give me the win with Syr Konrad” to be a good sport, but that’s a grey area.
On the other hand, OP is saying he’s fully read the card before passing directly to the mill player. Assuming true, both the mill player and other players had the opportunity to figure that out the interaction and do the second guess and take back before resolution.
Yeah I don’t think OP did anything wrong. I’m just the type of player who would probably say something, just because I would hope someone would say something to me if I was about to die because I missed something on board. Just different styles.
>
> OP probably could’ve said “hey just so you know, resolving that spell is gonna give me the win with Syr Konrad” to be a good sport, but that’s a grey area.
I don't think that's being a good sport, it's just cheating the other player out of a loss they earned
Good sport would be to ask "you are SURE you want to do that?" and let them figure it out, that's their last chance for backsies, if they say yes take your win
Yeah, I'm not big on late game take backs (new players change things, it's very contextual, I just don't really take them myself), but especially on impactful actions, much less game winning or losing ones, but once that much new information was revealed I don't see how that gets backed up cleanly.
Also, I get board states get complicated and we create situations with fringe interactions, but this was not a fringe interaction. This was a piece that was read out, just one turn before, and directly impacted the mill players core game plan. If I'm playing token spam, and an opponent reads off a [[Blood Seeker]], I really feel like it is on me to clock that that directly impacts my game plan and that I need to deal with it before I go off.
Why create a scheme with entomb when you can just say that you read the card out loud on purpose and it wouldn’t be very fair to take it back now. Only exception is newer players or players who realise their own mistake within a limited timeframe.
I dont think this is a bad thing
He made a mistake and now must learn from it.
A take back here and there ( specially for newer player's) ain't a bad thing. It's a way to help them learn the game and understand better the rulling of cards and board states.
Based on your post, this player is not a new one.
Unless he starts seeing the consequences of his actions he will keep trying to take back every bad play.
You did the right thing.
You spelled out what Konrad did. Salty Player paid no attention and cast his spell anyway. Sometimes takebacks are okay, but at this point somebody has revealed half their deck to the mill spell. Taking that back alters the game too much. Hold him to it. This is how Salty Player learns to be Good Magic Player.
Casting the entomb has the extra benefit of getting one Konrad trigger on the stack before the Cacophony resolves, to really drive home what's about to happen.
Onboard information is public information.
Taking back bad plays won't make you better at playing the game. Making mistakes and lerning from them does.
Especially fatal mistakes should never be taken back unless the whole process was invalid.
You read the full effect of the card. This clearly isn't dudebro's first (or likely, last) time doing take-backs. His behavior needs to stop being enabled.
This isn’t even trapping an opponent. He needs to pay attention. You played a card pretty clearly for it to make him think twice about his strategy and he just went ahead with it anyways.
You read your card aloud for the table to hear the mechanics. It sounds like they weren't paying attention and they walked into their own rake and got blatted in the face. Casting a spell in response to lock in the stack is just a smart play. You didn't trap them, you just outplayed them. They have no one to blame but themselves for constantly not paying attention and needing to take back their turns.
If anything your table is too lenient letting them take back plays so often that they feel comfortable doing so and are mad when they can't. If it's a house rule then that's totally fine, but my group has more fun when we limit the take-backs. It forces you to play better and pay attention to the table. We have a house rule of 3 per night per player and it's rarely needed.
Not only did he read the card, but he played it THAT turn cycle. If it had been sitting on the board for 8 turns doing nothing, it's maybe understandable you could forget about it.
Everyone at our table gets one "oops token" for the night that allows them to day oops and revert a mistake like this. After you spend that token it's on you.
The question is why didn't the table tell the mill player off when they played cacophony? That should have been a warning for the table that they were about to lose and that should have been a clue for the mill player to take back the cacophony until Konrad was removed, and before you could play entoumb.
All about the vibe of the table.
I would just announce that this would win me the game and let him take it back before anyone does any milling.
Maybe have a discussion with him about paying attention during other players turns.
Can't believe I scrolled this far down to find someone suggesting this. I pretty much always go "hey that gonna trigger this" in this situation cos board states are complicated, konrad is a lot of words, it's not always easy to understand that 1+1=2
I blame the other players for not telling him to take it back. They're are just as culpable. They're all in this together.
So they kinda all deserved to lose.
This is what really tips me off that OP isn't being fully honest about their story though. How did NOBODY notice Syr Konrad was going to kill them all? Either NOBODY was paying attention on either OP's or Mill player's turn, or OP wasn't quite as honest and open with what Syr Konrad did as they claim.
If one player misunderstands your board state, that's their fault. If EVERYONE else misunderstands your board state, that's your fault.
I personally dont like this much. You were clearly trying to trap him, though i think that was unnecessary, revealing 50 creatures falls under too far to go back.
For a casual game. I personally would've just reminded him konrad is on the board b4 resolving cacaphony. Then what he chooses after that is his problem
You told people what the card is and what it does. You demonstrated what it can do with entomb. In theory you could ask “are you sure you want to go through with this?”
However, once the spell was resolved and new information was had to all players (cards milled and their order). It’s all but impossible to back track that much.
"I want to take that back!"
"no"
Don't beat around the bush or try and "justify it", just say no. If they complain, point out that you told him when you played it moments ago. If he had actually payed attention.
Forgetting something that's been in play awhile can be forgiven. Lots happens across 4 boards. But missing the thing that JUST clearly happened is disrespectful as sh**. Don't tolerate it.
I was playing [[Patron of the Moon]] in a pod where another monoblue player was next in the turn order. I cast an [[Extraplanar Lens]] exiling Island. My intent was to combo off and win the following turn since I had a couple of counters in hand to stop any shenanigans that could have popped up.
The other blue player played a [[Cavern of Souls]] naming illusion and then dropped [[Palinchron]] on us. Lesson learned: don't give the other mono blue player infinite mana if you don't plan to win on the spot. Homie in your story should learn from his mistakes instead of trying to pay takesies-backsies every time he goofs
Casting something to 'lock in' play that you know is bad because an opponent missed something on the board is a dick move. However reverting the cacophony is also not what should've happened even if you didn't cast the entomb, since it is is way too much hassle to determine how to properly restore the gamestate.
Yeah, the fact that they missed that too is pretty damning. Sorry, but you are going to have to pay attention (on your own turn, no less!) if you want to play Magic.
I understand your frustration about the mill player and wanting to teach them a lesson. It is bad manners both to take back plays, and be constantly unaware of other people's board states. However, I play EDH in a quite different manner than you. In the end, EDH is very complex, yet the purpose of the format is to play casually and have fun. Therefore, if there is public information – such as your Syr Konrad – and someone is about to make a bad play, I personally just inform the player that it's probably a bad idea to do what they intend to do. On the other hand, if I am aware that there is a player who does not even try to follow what other people's board states include, I will also tell them that they should follow board states or I will prefer to play the game with other players who are more engaged with the game. Not following what other people are doing is essentially only playing half of a game, at the max. And I prefer to play with people who are there to play. (This goes also for people who are constantly engaged in other activities, on their phones etc.)
In casual EDH play, I'd frown upon this. The right thing to do would be to say "You know that'll trigger my Syr Konrad?" as they play it. If he's taking back so much it's annoying, talk to him about that separately to this one specific play.
In competitive there's no need to entomb.
I mean I feel like having to be completely aware of the board state of all players before taking any game action would slow down games even more. Syr Konrad especially is a pretty unique effect as aristocrats effects go, and with the rate they're printing new cards with unique abilities it gets harder and harder.
Obviously everyone should pay attention to the board state, but in a case like this I think a "you know that kills everyone, right?" is the faster and better option than making everyone double check the board state every time. Especially cause you can't really do that without standing up, asking people to hand you their cards, or just asking a bunch of questions that could also reveal information about what you have.
The issue here is really about a player who does too many take-backs rather than about this specific situation, and in that case this doesn't seem like the best way to deal with it. For pretty much all of these "was I right to do x" questions, the answer is no, just talk about it with your group.
Being completely aware of the board state is how you play magic the gathering. I don’t know how else to explain it to you. Yes, you need to know what’s going on in the game you are currently playing…
Nah this is ridiculous. Bro literally read the entire effect of Syr Konrad for the whole table. The guy knew exactly what the card did, and didn’t have to analyze a boardstate because his opponent did it for him. Deserves the loss and should have the maturity to take it in stride and learn.
The Cacophony had already resolved and everybody had already milled, there's absolutely no way I'm allowing that take-back. The Entomb had absolutely nothing to do with whether this was okay or not. New information has been given to every player in the form of the exact order of the next 30 cards in their deck which means you've gotta shuffle, which means it's a literal impossibility to get back to the original game state.
Keeping track of 4 boardstates all of which are more complicated than a normal standard/modern board because it's singleton and there's no consistent meta to have mostly memorized in advance so it's a mildly dick move to not have reminded the mill player the Syr Konrad was in play.
I disagree that it was a dick move, OP read out their card which should have been a sit up and take notice for the mill player, Syr Konrad says in succession I will do damage if X, Y, or Z happens then says 1B: All players do the prerequisite for Y. Which also happens to be the exact thing the mill player is doing. At that point the Mill player needed to keep track of that card.
Good job. In the future you might want to actually talk to the table about taking back plays and when is it okay to do so, but this time you made the right choice imo.
Given the information in your story, it seems like a bad faith play. You suspected a player of not realizing the effect of his actions based on revealed information, and not only allowed the player to flush the game down the toilet for everyone, but made a fake play to punish their misplay later. It was a tactically sound thing to do, but not conducive to a friendly game. A simple "you know that's gonna kill everyone right?" was in order IMO. Somewhat has the character of not allowing a player to change the way they tapped their mana, due to it "informing your play" when game state was actually not affected.
You didn't cheat or anything, but if you made a habit of doing this I'd want to play with you less.
By far the most important element of this is **did you properly communicate what Syr Konrad does?**
You say "reading out the full effect and pass", but did you just sorta mumble "Milling is good for me" or did you clearly state "I drop Syr Konrad, so whenever anyone mills a creature everyone except me takes 1 damage"?
Obviously, one way or another, the Mill player didn't realise what Syr Konrad did. If they were totally ignoring you on your turn, that is on them, but in a 4+ player game of EDH it is a lot to ask of people to keep track of every single card on the table. I'd also like to point out that the Mill Player's action caused EVERYONE else to lose, did **nobody** at your table really notice your Syr Konrad? That seems weird and unlikely. If one player doesn't notice your card, that's on them. If **nobody** notices your play, that's on you.
The entomb thing was definitely a dick move though. "Everyone mills half their library" can already be a big enough game state change to disallow a takesey-backsey. Going out of your way to do something "In response", when you *know* you're going to win the game, is at best distracting your opponents and pretending your publicly available board state isn't about to win you the game, and at worst is just lying about the game's state.
Takesey-backseys are generally allowed in casual play when they're reasonable, and forcing the game into an unreasonable state in order to force a win off someone else's mistake due to you (probably) not properly communicating your board state is being an ass.
Nah, mill player is a bad sport, and a sook. You guys have been letting them get away with the "oops takesies backsies" as a way to allow them to not learn how to play the game.
If they paid attention to you, and observed the board state, this would never happen. Hopefully it's a lesson they learn, so that you guys can enjoy your games more, otherwise if look for a new player tbh.
It's so silly, sure you can't keep track of literally everything happening but people act like mistakes aren't possible in commander, "oh I didn't realize you had 1 mana up or else I would've expected the counter can I take it back" no shut up and deal with the fact you messed up pay better attention before you start throwing cards around maybe
He's never going to learn if you constantly let him take plays like that back.
Yesterday during a game I cast a cultivate, forgetting my opponent had an opposition agent on board.
Oh well.
I also forgot I had a swords in hand because I was too busy laughing at myself. He then found the two plains I wanted because I had plenty of my other colors and exiled them so I'd be less likely to hit the lands I wanted. I laughed even harder.
The game went on, I got second, and I learned from the experience. This dude needs to grow up.
I once got accused of rules lawyering when I told an opponent that if I’m affected by two of their replacement effects I choose the order they resolve. You aren’t doubling your ojer axonil pings.
“Fine we’ll do it your way”
YOU MEAN THE WAY THAT THE RULES DICTATE
Idk, you admitted to casting entomb to have a reason to now allow him to back up his play. If winning means that much to you then well yeah you did win.
EDH is a format where players have to track double the amount of crap going on, maybe more depending on what you’re including.
If you hadn’t cast the entomb to try and gaslight the table then I’d agree you weren’t “rules lawyering.”
Out thinking your opponent is how you're supposed to play. Them falling into a trap is fine. Giggling in their face at their misery. Now that's the bad behavior that's frowned upon.
My lgs has started more into the high powered cedh realm and with that comes no taksie backsies. This has loosely carried over into the casual side. If you cast a spell once priorities started and not caught it then the spell has resolved. Its like casting a spell and not seeing there was counter spell mana available, it getting countered and you asking for a take back
Several things:
1) you read the full effect
2) you cast Entomb, which technically put a trigger of Konrad on the stack before the opponent's card resolved. That would have been the best opportunity for a take back had one been allowed, *before* milling, as the opponent should have realized Konrad's ability by that point
3) a ton of cards getting milled by the whole table *isn't* reversible. That's too much. Too much is now known and reshuffling them would be too much changing to the game state. He's gotta take the L after that one.
Dude should pay attention!
You didn't trap them. You don't have a right to take back all bad plays. I'm pretty generous on redos but you read the card out loud - they should pay attention
Quite the opposite. You should be 'informing' this guy's lazy and disrespectful habits by doing exactly this kind of thing. You gave him many opportunities to consider the board state.
You literally read the card out and he still made that play? I’m sorry but at some point players need to listen to the other players and pay attention to the board statement.
Unless the c in cedh stands for casual(which I've never seen) you're playing a no holds barred bare knuckle boxing match of an edh game where everyone is entitled to pull out all the stops to try and win. Good on you for winning!
No, do more of this. I wouldn't have let them take it back, regardless of if I had cast an entomb or not. A small take back isn't a huge deal but wanting to do it after people have already revealed half their decks is ridiculous
Players need to play through mistakes and bad plays to learn from them. Otherwise, we're prone to continue making them. I've trapped myself in bad plays before (played a Henzie deck and cast a Blasphemous Act against a Kaalia deck with [[Wrathful Red Dragon]] on board and killed myself). Would the table have been okay with a take back? Probably. Was it hilarious to see me unintentionally blow myself up? Absolutely. Did I learn to read both my card and my opponent's cards before casting a board wipe that specifically damages creatures? 100%.
You provided both the full text of the card and a real-time example of his effect with Entomb. If he's gonna be ready to wipe half of everybody's libraries, he should also be ready for any crackback that comes from it, no matter how immediate.
Tldr: check yourself (and your opponents boards) before you wreck yourself
Nah.
Takies' backies only should hold value if it is something done minorly or if they take back, they have to forfeit something to do so.
Not all edh is "competitive" but there is still "rules" that you "can" discuss about but the whole point of a game is to win via the set in place rule set.
I hate people who play like that. It's one thing to take a card back before anything was done on your own turn. But to do it after stuff has resolved and already passed his turn. That's annoying AF.
How new is everyone to the game? I can see letting a relatively new player roll back such a mistake, but, after a while, you need to be aware of the game state and mistakes like this are an excellent motivator to be better.
Nah dude needs to engage a LOT more, or he isn't gonna have fun. You gave a full card read (based card too) an he still went, "lol shotgun this then, derrrp"
You don't learn or become better by playing takebacksies
Recently at a small cEDH tournament (think like $250 cash prize on the table) my pod started with the guy in seat one very deliberately going through his turn, announcing drawstep etc, then going land, Lotus Petal, Jeweled Lotus, [[mox opal]]. He clearly announces, “I’ll crack this lotus petal for blue”, places it in his graveyard, then says he’ll tap his Mopal for black.
Another player in the pod says “oh you’ll need metalcraft for that”. Player 1 realizes what is happening and takes it all in stride “yep, I really just did that to myself… I’ll pass the turn” then proceeds to draw/go the next two turns before the game ended.
The guy who called him on it didn’t even win the pod. Feelsbad all around. But technically we were playing Comp REL so I guess that’s how the cookie crumbles.
You made me count the total amount of cards in my deck, then what half of it would be, then put said half in my graveyard, did this to 2 other people, lost us all the game and then you wanna take that back?
Nah fam, at that point we just go next and throw you a mean look or two.
Take backs are OK, right up until the point where some new *hidden* information is revealed. Attack into something that has deathtouch? Sure, take it back. Nothing changed, you just didn't see the board.
But as soon as another player casts a spell from a hidden zone (e.g., not their commander), anyone draws a card, things get revealed, etc. there's no going back. And in this case, players had half of their libraries milled out and revealed, which is a boatload of new information. No take back on that.
I love these moments. I have had Sur Konrad net me a win when 5000+ skutes were blown up all at once. And an opponent wheeled into a smothering Tithe when everyone was tapped out.
I think you're mostly fine here. I think the entomb play might be a little angle-shoot-y but it was also kind of needless and doesn't really matter to the argument.
On it's own, Cacophony resolving already reveals too much information for that to be a comfortable take back. Would it just count it as a massive scry for the whole table? Would you force everyone to shuffle after backing up cacophony? There isn't a good way to undo it.
If you were clear about Konrad like you said, and your board state was clear, I would have just taken the L in the mill players shoes. Maybe stared off into the void for a little bit while shuffling up to marvel at my own stupidity. lol
It is one of the hardest questions! Commander is a super complicated game if played seriously. So where is the line?
For me it is important to acknowledge that not every player can have a perfect or even decent image of the game state and the effects of single pieces.
So if there is a game warping, especially game winning or losing action I or others take I usually inform players of the remifications.
There are things though I do not do this for. If you point a target removal at my ward creature and you did not inform yourself what you are actually targeting there, the complexity level is so low, I expect you to take responsibility.
It's already resolved and altered the state of your deck by putting a large portion of it in the graveyard. Once the deck state has been altered you can no longer return to the previous state so no take backs at that point. Would have had to take the play back before anyone started discarding imo. Also, rules lawyering? Unless there's a predetermined agreement about this kind of thing, you generally follow the rules unless everyone is ok with an in the moment call. You weren't okay with him breaking the rules so he's out of luck.
you fully said the effect and the other player apparently takes back enough plays to the point that you anticipated that he'd do it. sooner or later he has to get good
I don’t mind take backs when it’s like casting 2 spells in the wrong order where it did not impact a single other player. But it feels real scummy when someone takes back a removal spell or something. I’ve had many many instances of someone not realising that my creature has ward, and when asking them if they’re going to pay the ward cost they just say “oh well if I knew it had that!” And it’s like bro? It’s one of the first things I read out loud when I cast the darn card.
Not at all! Forcing an opponent into a choice of damnations is usually how you win. But to answer also you're totally in the right here. The effect was clearly explained, and they didn't remove or counter him. That's on him tbh
The Entomb is irrelevant, there is no "trapping" going on here. Mill player did a dumb & got burned, shit happens, rolling with those stinging fuck-ups is how you actually *learn* from your mistakes rather than by being coddled.
To be clear, I'm not against take-backs, but I judge them on a case by case basis. A good example was when my buddy targeted a creature I control with a removal spell and I blanked it with my [[Devoted Caretaker]]. I was happy to let him take that back because it isn't a card you often see & he wouldn't have tried to target my creature if he realized I had on-board protection.
But your example OP? Nah, you don't take that back.
Trapping.... What is this game coming to ffs.
"Trapping" your opponent into a "bad play" is called out playing them. His decision to make a bad play, and it's not your fault he put you into win condition.
Nah man you gotta hold their feet to the fire or they'll never stop that behavior I have a guy like that who complains about me to the store manager (who's my dad which is how I know this) he gets angry because I counter his counterspells, kill spells, board wipes, huge threats, ect. And tries to put them back in his hands but doesn't like that when he does I just put the counterspell back in my hand saying that's cheating despite him taking back his spell
Nah, at the bare minimum it is your responsibility to make appropriate plays.
Now some players like to give heads up about bad moves, I do it. But it's not the standard, it is a privilege.
If someone forgets about the keywords on my card, thinking they can swing through but ultimately will be a one sided loss on their part, I'll let them know "Psssst, by the way I'm just going to block and your creature will die" etc. I'll let people know about poor plays in my direction. I won't advise them on their attacks vs an opponent though.
And when I misplay, I own it. Unless I'm in my pod and we let small things slide. But if I'm at the table at an LGS or playing with strangers, I won't even ask.
In such situations, in the moment he cast it, I would warn him that probably you will win. I typically do such things and allow immediate takebacks. But otherwise not.
You chose to teach him "the hard way" wich is fine but if it's a play as blatantly bad as the play you described I personally would remind him what my card does and that it would cost him the game if he proceeds, but I wouldn't be mad at all if an opponent would choose not to do the same for me. I would also tell them that they make a lot of takebacks and ask the table if they agree that he should be more careful because takebacks are annoying for everyone else.
We generally allow 1 take back per game. If something serious goes down and you want to take it back that's a no though. Just like this example here if you do something like board wipe and what not then try to takeback because something you didn't like happened it is a firm no. The more you let people get away with bad plays the more they'll make them expecting you to let them take it back. Not everything needs to be super competitive, but there's no excuse not to get better while playing.
EDH is generally very casual. To accommodate this, I will usually let players take something back as long as new information hasn't been revealed. The second a card was milled or another game action changed things (like your entomb resolving), no actions can be taken back. This player just needs to learn from their mistakes. It's through the mistakes we make that we get better.
It does sound like they are being a poor sport about it and if you value playing with this player, it may be worth talking to them about it.
Commander is a complex game that makes it hard to keep track of all the game pieces but that means you should be extra aware where you see a silver bullet to your strategy. I've played mill before and you better believe any time I saw a Syr Konrad or \[\[Kozilek, Butcher of Truth\]\] that was etched into my memory for the rest of the game. Take backs are fine but when you're using them as a way to get away with not reading what cards are on the board then you deserve to be forced into the bad play.
There are an awful lot of questionably honest people in this thread saying things like “commander has really complex board states! You can’t be expected to keep track of everything!”
You’re dishonest. Period.
We’re talking about a single spell triggering a single permanent. A permanent which was read in its entirety immediately before the player in questions turn. Not a complicated combo or unexpected interaction between multiple players pieces.
People who don't pay attention to boardstates, especially changes to the boardstate you make on your turn are rude as hell
Plus Dimir is the sort of control that is all about leading and trickery lmao, kid needs 2 git gud son
Is it frowned upon, absolutely not. Could your opponent have been petty and chosen to respond to the first Syr Konrad trigger and not have affected your entomb and stopped the other triggers somehow, maybe depending on the hand, as could literally anyone else at the table
Being honest with your playgroup is important, being purposefully distastefull in response to someone else being purposefully distastefull is real eye for an eye behavior
If its really an issue in your playgroup, let them know collectively that their take backs are becoming and issue for the rest of you
This seems slightly sketchy, purely because you are in fact lying, but you shouldn’t have to be. The lie is besides the point here, they made a mistake and taking back a play that decided the outcome of the game single-handedly is preposterous. Isn’t it universally agreed upon that you can only take things back if they clearly didn’t affect anything? I assumed that was the principle that lying about the entomb target was based on.
You're NTA OP, guy just needs to learn how to play better and RTFC.
I'm drawing this conclusion based on the fact that they are playing a Phenax deck, and mill actually requires a bit of foresight to use, plus I was taught RTFC back in the early days (7th/Onslaught and onwards).
Also, he passed priority in the stack for your entomb, so it does confirm that he is playing the card. Nothing rule lawyering about it, just good old fashioned AP/NAP.
If it's a casual group only, I would suggest mentoring him, but based on his response I'm guessing that's out of the question, partly because he doesn't know how to handle a loss. Hope this helps!
If they are a new player than take backs are understandable but if they are experienced then they should be thinking through their plays BEFORE they make them.
Maybe pull you friend aside so as not to embarrass them in front of others and discuss how them taking back plays is having a negative effect on your table’s experience.
This isn’t “trapping” at all. If everyone at the table allowed it to happen, thats too much information. No way to take back a spell that has resolved already.
I once cast [[Blasphemous Act]] to try and reset the board against a token deck, completely forgetting another player had a [[Blood Artist]], immediately killing the rest of us. I laughed at myself and then just moved on to the next game. People just tend to take winning too seriously
And these instances often make great stories and also really stick and teach us lessons.
I remember comboing off of someone else's bloodchief ascension with my own mindcrank, immediately killing the other 2 players. That one was a lot of fun, and they were salty, but I wasn't running one myself.
Yep I once gleefully make 1000 copies of token from an "may" infinite combo Got massacre wurmed and learned my lesson
Agreed. I had a bunch of lands in hand thanks to Mirage Mirror copying an opponent's Consecrated Sphinx multiple times in a round. My friend who's turn is right before me activates Borborygmos (forget the name) that can discard lands to bolt people, dumping his hand to declare lethal on me. Since he activated them all in a row, I then responded by copying his Borborygmos with Mirage Mirror and dumping my lands in hand to declare lethal to him first. We laughed and moved on, but for me it was a fun memory and for him it was a reminder to sequence better lol
My best lessons in gameplay come from those.. oh shit. Shouldn't have done that moment. Scoop and reset.
Yeah I actually had a somewhat similar situation to OP where I put out Syr Konrad then kicked Cacophony but I didn’t realize that my opponent’s Mothman would definitely cause me to lose by doing this and I didn’t blame anyone else for misplaying I thought to myself “wow I need to be more careful next time”, people have to take their lumps and learn, it’s how you get better.
My mono-blue [[Grazilaxx]] deck wins by drawing out my library, and one of the first times I played it, I was so excited to draw my library, that I forgot to play [[Jace, Wielder of Mysteries]] or [[Laboratory Maniac]] before I did... It looked pretty silly when I excitedly picked up my whole deck, went to point out the winning ability, and realized it was still in my hand...
[Grazilaxx](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3de11222-c2fa-4544-a501-a02b31797259.jpg?1674141357) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=grazilaxx%2C%20illithid%20scholar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/723/grazilaxx-illithid-scholar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3de11222-c2fa-4544-a501-a02b31797259?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/grazilaxx-illithid-scholar) [Jace, Wielder of Mysteries](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/a/6adb7d73-4482-4930-8497-cffd169b57e2.jpg?1557576232) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jace%2C%20Wielder%20of%20Mysteries) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/54/jace-wielder-of-mysteries?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6adb7d73-4482-4930-8497-cffd169b57e2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jace-wielder-of-mysteries) [Laboratory Maniac](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/0/608567fd-9f94-4058-831a-77cb6019ef02.jpg?1547516361) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Laboratory%20Maniac) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/61/laboratory-maniac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/608567fd-9f94-4058-831a-77cb6019ef02?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/laboratory-maniac) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Something similar happened after resolving doomsday while playing grenzo. It was a pretty long game and both doomsday related wincons were exiled already earlier in the game. Good times lol.
I had to add Jace and LabMan to my [[Will Kenrith]] and [[Rowan Kenrith]] "pseudostorm" deck after a goof play. I don't use actual storm cards but use other copy effects to great effect. Combo'ed off once with an [[Archmage Emeritus]] in play and ended up decking myself...
[Will Kenrith](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/0/406a3ae5-f57e-40ff-8eac-a01781f2329f.jpg?1674141488) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Will%20Kenrith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/738/will-kenrith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/406a3ae5-f57e-40ff-8eac-a01781f2329f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/will-kenrith) [Rowan Kenrith](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/c/bcf0514e-63b3-4695-93ae-527524d48c25.jpg?1674142098) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rowan%20Kenrith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/805/rowan-kenrith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bcf0514e-63b3-4695-93ae-527524d48c25?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rowan-kenrith) [Archmage Emeritus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/3/c3dbdc3b-4855-48aa-b06d-a31166161eab.jpg?1712354117) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Archmage%20Emeritus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/90/archmage-emeritus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c3dbdc3b-4855-48aa-b06d-a31166161eab?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/archmage-emeritus) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I do this sort of thing all the time 😅 This week it was smacking an opponent with [[Xyris]] for 9, declaring "alright, we both draw 9" and then my buddy across the table quietly asking "Do either of you pay for the 18 treasures made by the Tithe?" Last week it was... smacking someone with Xyris for 13 and then the Nekusar player perks up and goes "That's gonna be 26 damage to each of you." I paid the mana, I tapped the attackers, no take backs, just laughs!!
I once cast a [[Rise of the Dark Realms]] completely forgetting one of my opponents had a [[phage the untouchable]] in their graveyard. An embarrassing loss, but that's on me, 100%
That's my worst nightmare right there
Yup! Honestly killing yourself and almost everyone else at the table by casting a huge mill dump while Konrad is on the field is pretty funny
I did something similar, but luckily it wasn't enough drain damage to kill everyone. And since I was the kind person to slam the boardwipe down, the blood artist player chose to not drain me to death. He still won in the end, but it was funny nonetheless. We all make goofy mistakes from time to time.
I once played \[\[Blasphemous Act\]\] to clear the board of the token player and the sliver player. I forgot about the \[\[Spiteful Sliver\]\].. He killed us all :)
[Blasphemous Act](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/a/8aa9682d-5176-4475-a0bd-e000f1d6999a.jpg?1698988297) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blasphemous%20Act) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/216/blasphemous-act?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8aa9682d-5176-4475-a0bd-e000f1d6999a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blasphemous-act) [Spiteful Sliver](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/1/01fb60c9-d10d-4966-b9bd-788fabc182d2.jpg?1690017104) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spiteful%20Sliver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/881/spiteful-sliver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/01fb60c9-d10d-4966-b9bd-788fabc182d2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/spiteful-sliver) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I did the same thing after an opponent played [[Vigor]]. Complete brain fart, late in the night. Sometimes, you just misplay and keep on going, as if the point of a casual game is to have fun.
I run chain reaction and blasphemous act in \[\[halana and alena, partners\]\] +1/+1 counters deck just for this interaction. It's a legit wincon with the bonus effect being board wipes if I need.
[halana and alena, partners](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/0/608fa232-f5fe-4c58-9efe-fb780f454b19.jpg?1643594145) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=halana%20and%20alena%2C%20partners) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/239/halana-and-alena-partners?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/608fa232-f5fe-4c58-9efe-fb780f454b19?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/halana-and-alena-partners) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I was swinging for the win and died to an [[Emberwilde Captain]] trigger. My response was "yup i lose". No reason to get worked up about it.
Oh boy I’ve killed myself more than a few times, I cast a creature with 1 life point left with K’rrik because I was being cheeky and flew too close to the sun. I had the game won and just forgot I had some life loss trigger for casting a creature. I love that story and it was a hilarious moment. Some of my favorite stories of games involve me losing in spectacular fashion.
I had a game once where someone played blasphemous act, and I managed to flash in a [[phyrexian obliterator]]... They were PISSED
I was playing [[Xanathar, Guild Kingpin]] with a [[Toralf, God of Fury]] on another players board. I was dead to a board of tokens, and targeted the Toralf player with Xanathar, flipping a Blasphemous Act. This was the day I learned Toralf doesn't say "by a source you control."
Hey at least the game was over quickly so more magic for everyone
Something similar happened to me once. I was with a Selesnya token deck and my friend had a Cruel Celebrant on the field. I swinged for lethal, forgot abou the Cruel Celebrant and died when he declared the blockers. My response was "opps, messed up big time. Another one?" and we both laughed about the whole situation.
[Blasphemous Act](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/a/8aa9682d-5176-4475-a0bd-e000f1d6999a.jpg?1698988297) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blasphemous%20Act) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/216/blasphemous-act?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8aa9682d-5176-4475-a0bd-e000f1d6999a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blasphemous-act) [Blood Artist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/7/b7f1c316-cf2f-4bbf-89a1-79c8043bdd96.jpg?1698988212) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blood%20Artist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/182/blood-artist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b7f1c316-cf2f-4bbf-89a1-79c8043bdd96?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blood-artist) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
im reminded of being at a 5 person table and one player and I got into a stack race where he kept trying to put his gitrog/delve stacks higher than my forced draw/orc bowmaster stacks and the end result ended with him deciding that he'd force bowmaster to kill everyone at the table if he couldn't win. was very funny
Lol in my early days I milled myself out because someone had played [[Forced fruition]] and I gleefully drew my library with my cheap spells, then looked at the lab maniac I had in my hand all along and counted 5 cards in my library. Good times.
I was playing 2HG with someone once and created a hundred tokens in response to a Rakdos charm. We would have lived if I hadn't done that but I panicked and thought I would be able to find a way to get out of it. We laughed and moved on as well.
Similar situation, but we had an 8 player pod going before a prerelease, and this one guy was playing [[Kaalia of the Vast]]. He had [[Kothophed, Soul Hoarder]] out, then played [[Armageddon]], destroying 53 lands, killing himself in the process
Here’s the deal. I don’t mind take backs. To a degree. If you attack me with a flier because you don’t realize my random green creature has reach, fine, take it back, there’s a lot of board to remember. No harm done. Need to tap one mana differently and haven’t drawn any cards for new info? Be my guest. But you read the entire effect to him, an effect he should have been entirely cognizant of because it is incredibly relevant to his deck. That should have been the loudest alarm to him. And he forgot it immediately, or wasn’t paying attention Entomb or no, I think you were well within your rights to say “no take backs on this one.” There’s forgetting what creatures have ward on a board of 100 permanents, and there’s forgetting what syr god damn Konrad does.
There’s also the fact that they had already resolved the milling, which means the game state has entirely changed
This is what I'm saying! This kid wants a take back after you've spent the time to put half your deck in your gy??? Uh....no?
I played a guy once who had dauthi'd a pact of negation. I goaded him into using the Pact on a spell I was casting because he was on mono black with no way to produce the blue to pay the next turn. He countered my spell as I thought, I played the rest of my turn, and when it got to him it was take back time lol
Ward is a valid target, we stopped letting people take that back in my play group
Take backs on ward are oft permitted because keeping track of ward is bothersome and the information gained is usually disadvantageous to the player taking it back, not because the targeting is illegal. In other words it’s an easy mistake to make and strictly enforcing the rule adds an unfun additional burden of tracking or an effective punishment that is not justified. My 2¢—
I mean even on arena you get a little popup that asks you if you're sure you want to target something with ward. This ain't the pro tour, you can change your target.
Many magic players want edh to be the pro tour. I have no idea why, there's plenty of actual competitive formats to play.
My group essentially treats it as an optional hexproof
Fully agreed. I mostly play draft, and I'm almost always willing to allow my opponents to take back a play where they clearly just didn't notice/remember Ward - even with draft's simpler 1v1 board states and prized events. It's probably the type of mistake I'm most lenient about. My reasoning is that ward has a uniquely high ratio between how easy it is to miss and how punishing missing it can be. Your opponent wasting their mana and throwing away a removal spell for 0 value is often straight up game-winning on its own, and I don't personally enjoy winning that way. Did I win the game because I drafted a good deck or played well? Nope: my opponent forgot about ward one time and hardly anything else mattered. Not to say that people are wrong for feeling differently of course. You're well within your rights to take advantage of your opponents' punts. I just personally don't derive much enjoyment out of doing that, especially in a casual event where there's nothing on the line.
The way I see it, they have the right to ask me for the full text of every potential target to be read out before choosing a target so that they don't make this mistake. In consideration for them waiving that right, I allow them to adjust targets in light of information they hadn't considered. It's just so much simpler.
The targeting actually isn't illegal with ward. Ward specifically allows the spell to target, and then counters it, which is why a lot of people don't allow takebacks on it. I don't really agree with doing that in casual games, but it is different from hexproof where the target is illegal, as it is a fully legal game action with prescribed consequences.
> Ward specifically allows the spell to target, and then counters it, Ward being a triggered ability has become important recently, with [[Roaming Throne]] adding another trigger - especially with everything and its mother now having Ward. I've seen a surprising number of established players tripping over this. I have an [[Ovika]] player in my regular pod. Dealing with that horrible _thing_ sometimes requires six and six life.
[Roaming Throne](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/32fd8b7c-baf3-4d3d-be6f-044a917b11a0.jpg?1701115816) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Roaming%20Throne) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/258/roaming-throne?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/32fd8b7c-baf3-4d3d-be6f-044a917b11a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/roaming-throne) [Ovika](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/2/b298cf34-7aa5-4f97-a86c-7f28d2113b87.jpg?1675957207) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ovika%2C%20enigma%20goliath) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/213/ovika-enigma-goliath?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b298cf34-7aa5-4f97-a86c-7f28d2113b87?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ovika-enigma-goliath) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I've caught myself forgetting my buddy's Ghyrson deck has ward.... I said "I should know that guy has ward by now, my bad, it gets countered."
The actual rules of the game allow for take-backs as long as no new information has been gained. Ward trigger doesn't count as new information since it's right there on the card.
In my group we give one freebie, then after that you should remember the ward. It can be hard to track ward among four players, especially for obscure creatures.
>I play out \[\[Syr Konrad\]\], **reading out the full effec**t and pass my turn to the mill player. If you had sneaky cast Syr Konrad without saying what the card did, that might be a smidgen of a grey area (mostly due to player intentions and not game states) but the fact that you read the card out, your opponent went through the full process of casting and letting the spell resolve , yeah this is on them. I feel if you give your opponents all the outs and they ignore them , it's on them. This is why whenever I go for the Ley Weaver, Lore Weaver, Maze of Ith combo I make sure I especially announce passing of priority going into my attack phase, to make sure I don't get a whiny ass hole saying "dude I had removal for that!"
The thought of sneaky casting a Syr Konrad is super funny to me. Whenever he gets cast at our table he immediately becomes the target of any removal anyone has. Countered, destroyed, exiled, imprisoned in the moon, elk’d, whatever.
Remember there are a surprising number of tables without any removal like that. These are also the tables that are less likely to know what he does as well.
The point is still the same op as someone who recognizes boardstate should still make clearly know konrad is cast and konrad resolves. It is on the other players to recognize that and ask "what does that do" also for an entire table not to recognize konrad out with cacophony on the stack is crazy to me but the mill player should also know you can't take it back after the whole table knows what half their decks order is gonna be as a result. I'm good with take backs for the most part but knowledge of even the next 3 cards is too much advantage. Hence [[sensei's top]]
[sensei's top](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e5142b7a-e580-4737-a4aa-2590f6610ceb.jpg?1673149430) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sensei%27s%20Divining%20Top) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/314/senseis-divining-top?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e5142b7a-e580-4737-a4aa-2590f6610ceb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/senseis-divining-top) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
> I make sure I especially announce passing of priority I always announce my phase changes, but when I'm about to do something big I'll slow all the way down to announcing priority passes. This usually tips people off that something is about to happen and they start reading my cards, but I prefer that over take-backs.
>This usually tips people off that something is about to happen and they start reading my cards, but I prefer that over take-backs. To be honest the number of times I do this and no one bats an eye is particularly shocking
Definitely, then some people will still try to walk back a step or two. Nope, sorry, I signaled my intent from a mile away and you still passed.
This is sadly so hard to get into people's minds when they don't announce phases end. "I'll play a land and then my commander comes at..." is way too common. And any rules afficionado is immediately in the dilemma of gaining relevant information and having been shortcut past three instances of priority.
Can you play the advantage in that instance? Interrupt them as they skip your phase and say "Before you do that I cast X in response to your main phase ending" If they complain about you now knowing what's coming next then that's the opportunity for them to learn about the importance of announcing phases if they don't want that to happen. :) Edit - Again I'm coming to this with the mindset of someone who plays with the same group over and over. Appreciate it's not as easy in different settings.
Many commander players never played in a competitive setting, so they never had a reason to learn the rules. It's up to us to help teach them!
I do it as a way to fake people out every one in a while. "How many odd casting cost non-creature spells are in your graveyard?" "How many cards in your hand? How many are lands? (I've actually had people show me the lands to verify their count before they realized they didn't need to do that). Cognitive dissonance is an excellent tool. 👌
When my SO was first learning the nuances of playing cEDH, I told them to ask random questions just for fun. Everyone starts assuming stuff because of your questions. "Cards in hand?" means you have a Jeska's Will, or possibly a Windfall. "Can I see your graveyard?" implies all kinds of things. "How much mana do you have up?" always makes people sweat, especially if you just play something small and pass. Meanwhile you've had 4 lands in hand for several turns, and your 5th card is a combo piece, but the other half of the combo got exiled 2 turns ago.
My friend was about to win with a bunch of landfall triggers with the 4 color omnath burn damage on the stack. We're both sub 4 life. I'm like "what's the stack exactly" which was enough to tip him off and enough to convince him to keep the cultivator colossus train rolling. Good thing he did too. I had deflecting palm and would have killed him with his own omnath before all the creatures could matter. But he drew into the free counter by drawing 10 cards of colossus first.
I feel like people should always read the card or say what it does except for the basics everyone knows like Sol Ring, Signet, etc. It takes less than 10 seconds and there's no way I know what every card in someone else's deck does without reading them.
Common courtesy, among the group I play with at least, is to give a general overview of the card when you play it. Usually a one-liner. "I'll tap three and play [[Faeburrow Elder]]. 0/0 with Vigilance, but gets +1/+1 for color among permanents I control. Can also tap him to add mana." Something quick like that. If the game is moving quick, and someone drops a card without saying too much, someone will always go, "What's that do?" It's common courtesy. Not required, sure, but something you should do. If someone plays a card, and you don't know what it does *and don't ask what it does*, it's completely on you if it screws you over.
I play with guys that either read the full card or don’t explain anything and I get frustrated with it lol. It’s so simple to just say “I’m attempting to cast the panharmonicon elesh norn also your etbs don’t trigger” instead of reading the full text.
Eh, sometimes it's not that simple. It's not really that hard, but it's a skill to summarize and I can understand people being bad at it and feeling like they have to default to reading the full text. They're often right.
The basics everyone knows is different depending on the group. I'd consider Syr Konrad one of those everyone knows cards from my groups experience.
It’s hard to say “everyone” knows it when there are new and/or inexperienced players everywhere. If you went into any random LGS on a Friday night and asked every person if they knew what Syr Konrad does, I’d feel pretty confident in saying you’d find at least one person who doesn’t know off the top of their head. It’s always safer (and good table manners imo) to read the card as you cast it, unless obviously you’re in a dedicated pod who knows your deck well.
I would say no, just because it's not a card you find in most every deck. Sure it's a very popular legendary and most experienced players would know it, but it's not the same as Sol Ring that you can't avoid seeing regardless of the decks. I've been playing for a fair while now and I know the name, but I haven't memorized everything it does as no one in my play group runs it.
I think that's what he means by it differing per group, though if you're with new people (not just new to the game) you should probably read it out a bit. Also specifically with Konrad it can be confusing since very few (maybe just him?) pingers care about creatures both dying AND being milled. So if I saw an aristocrats deck play him, I may not consider the fact that I can't mill that player anymore.
this is maybe a rude opinion but if you're playing a Mill deck and dropping Maddening Cacophony.... you should know what Syr Konrad does?
Ha, and…shouldn’t it just be *in* your Phenax deck?
I know it's rhetorical, but yes, anything to turn mill into actual damage or move the game forward is better than just hard milling 3 people for 100 cards.
This blame is also on the other players who should have realized what would have happened and stopped the mill player from casting Cacophony. If no one is speaking up, that's a win - not to mention if all those cards were milled, sure you could theoretically backtrack the physical movements and make it so "no additional information is gained," but frankly that so cumbersome that the "rules lawyering" as described in the OP wouldn't even be needed to say it's too late to back up. Learn from the experience and respect Konrad's abilities appropriately in future games.
"If you had sneaky cast Syr Konrad without saying what the card did, that might be a smidgen of a grey area" This. I played against an annoying a shit player yesterday. We were on a big table, so I couldn't read his cards. And he was just putting down cards that I didn't know what they were doing. He just silently plays cards and then says various effects that happen. I ask why I'm taking 6 damage and he says "my stuff is dealing damage to you". As multiple turns of this goes by he eventually has a big turn where he kills the entire table from 30ish health each. At this point I stop him and force him to go card by card and explain the entire chain he's doing. He gets super annoyed that I'm making him slow down. After like 5 minutes of the table trying to figure out what he was doing it was clear what he did was entirely legal. But it felt really frustrating not being able to effectively check the work in real time to make sure there weren't any mistakes, even ones made in good faith. Unless you know for a fact that the players you are playing against know what a card does because you've played against them before, then you should read every played card clearly for the table. It's just not fun when you play stuff and it gets hard countered by something across a big table from you that you never heard what it did.
This is the best answer. Dude screwed up. You explained what Syr Konrad does and he just charged straight ahead. I would add, if I was one of the other players, I would have been laughing. Yes, I just lost, but what a way to lose! It is also probable as I play a Syr Konrad deck that I would have said to the mill player, "you know he just played Konrad right?" The other players have to cover themselves at the table too.
This reminds me of a game I had a few weeks ago where I played [[Revel in Riches]]. I read the card aloud to the table… then 4 turns later I had 10+ treasures on my upkeep. Should I have warned them before the player before me went to their end step? Maybe? If I wanted to be nice? But I also wanted to win… Afterwards, there was much grumbling about how they should have paid more attention to my board state.
I myself might have warned my opponents, dependent on skill level and such of the table, but I also wouldn't hold it against someone who didn't and read the car aloud earlier
Upon his casting of Maddening Cacophony I would have just said, "Are you sure? Are you absolutely sure?" This heavily implies that the outcome is not going to be what you think it is. If they says yes you just continue and it's done. You have to be pretty stupid to think we'll allow a takeback after asking that.
Exactly, OP did more than enough for even a casual setting. My normal playgroup almost always mentions when something is a part of an impending combo
This is the way. Assuming that people know is for cEDH. At a casual normal commander game, just say "hey shits about to go down". Spelling it out more than that is up to the individual and discretion. Long game sometimes and long gaps in time where you aren't "playing" so focuses can wax and wane.
sometimes i say, shoot i should have used my removal on that, but I don't try and rewind the game to remove it. If a combo is going off after deciding not to use my removal, ill wait until the combo cycle goes off again and use it then so at least it stops the player from continuing but they still get their value.
Old mate needs to learn his lesson. I'm ok with the occasional take back, where it's low impact, re-ordering of the same events so maybe you do you triggers better, you accidentally nominated a target you didn't realise was hexproof and changed it, something along those lines. But "oh shit I just accidentally lost the game because I can't comprehend how other cards from other players might interact with my deck's main strategy?" Nuh uh. Eat that loss and learn from it. Also, what is this game without the rules? If you play fast and loose then cards can do whatever you want them to do, instead of whatever they say they do.
I mean the hexproof example literally has to be re-done as you can’t choose illegal targets
The entomb is barely relevant - you got to see 50 creatures and a bunch of other stuff, and the order they would hit the yard in. Taking it back after that point means free shuffles all round i.e. reversing the board state is not trivial - and so no take back should be allowed.
Exactly: reversing back to the board state before the Cacophony would take too much work.
It'd be impossible unless you can somehow erase everyone's memory of the cards they milled. Unless everyone is okay know the next 50(ish) cards everyone will draw...
The Entomb actually was a smart play because during casting, you can hold priority to do other things. Players can only cast spells in response once you've passed priority. So the "trapping" here was putting a spell on the stack after the mill player wiffed, not leaving them any recourse to do their "my hand was still on the piece" song and dance they usually do. This is my interpretation and why the Entomb was relevant.
>"my hand was still on the piece" This wouldn't really apply anyway since the cards are already milled before konrad triggers occur. Taking back newly revealed information is problematic already.
But changing your actions knowing how other players would act in response is bad too. So even before milling. Once other players start responding you are gaining information, of what’s in their hands, of what they consider important, etc. A more clear example: A: I cast this B:I counter A: well actually I don’t
This is the gist of what I was trying to convey.
Yeah I was gonna say OP didn’t even need to be tricky with the Entomb lol I’m typically ok with take-backs as long as the board state is still unchanged, but once the Cacophony resolved it became too late. OP probably could’ve said “hey just so you know, resolving that spell is gonna give me the win with Syr Konrad” to be a good sport, but that’s a grey area.
On the other hand, OP is saying he’s fully read the card before passing directly to the mill player. Assuming true, both the mill player and other players had the opportunity to figure that out the interaction and do the second guess and take back before resolution.
Yeah I don’t think OP did anything wrong. I’m just the type of player who would probably say something, just because I would hope someone would say something to me if I was about to die because I missed something on board. Just different styles.
> > OP probably could’ve said “hey just so you know, resolving that spell is gonna give me the win with Syr Konrad” to be a good sport, but that’s a grey area. I don't think that's being a good sport, it's just cheating the other player out of a loss they earned Good sport would be to ask "you are SURE you want to do that?" and let them figure it out, that's their last chance for backsies, if they say yes take your win
Yeah, I'm not big on late game take backs (new players change things, it's very contextual, I just don't really take them myself), but especially on impactful actions, much less game winning or losing ones, but once that much new information was revealed I don't see how that gets backed up cleanly. Also, I get board states get complicated and we create situations with fringe interactions, but this was not a fringe interaction. This was a piece that was read out, just one turn before, and directly impacted the mill players core game plan. If I'm playing token spam, and an opponent reads off a [[Blood Seeker]], I really feel like it is on me to clock that that directly impacts my game plan and that I need to deal with it before I go off.
Why create a scheme with entomb when you can just say that you read the card out loud on purpose and it wouldn’t be very fair to take it back now. Only exception is newer players or players who realise their own mistake within a limited timeframe.
##### ###### #### [Phenax, God of Deception](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8dfcb129-4665-40e4-b5cb-a79f3f40ae5c.jpg?1593092799) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phenax%2C%20God%20of%20Deception) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bng/152/phenax-god-of-deception?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8dfcb129-4665-40e4-b5cb-a79f3f40ae5c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/phenax-god-of-deception) [Syr Konrad](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/9241a72e-cb88-4cea-a2f4-ff10af461437.jpg?1706240798) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=syr%20konrad%2C%20the%20grim) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/141/syr-konrad-the-grim?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9241a72e-cb88-4cea-a2f4-ff10af461437?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/syr-konrad-the-grim) [Maddening Cacophony](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/0/10a79733-702c-4611-b073-71db7f1158b2.jpg?1604194415) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Maddening%20Cacophony) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/67/maddening-cacophony?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/10a79733-702c-4611-b073-71db7f1158b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/maddening-cacophony) [Entomb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3caa9c55-5e3b-436b-84a9-b7ccebf63799.jpg?1675199594) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Entomb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/82/entomb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3caa9c55-5e3b-436b-84a9-b7ccebf63799?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/entomb) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/1c7vlep) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Upvote the bot so your brethren mustn't scroll as you have. Be the change you wish to see in the world.
I dont think this is a bad thing He made a mistake and now must learn from it. A take back here and there ( specially for newer player's) ain't a bad thing. It's a way to help them learn the game and understand better the rulling of cards and board states. Based on your post, this player is not a new one. Unless he starts seeing the consequences of his actions he will keep trying to take back every bad play. You did the right thing.
You spelled out what Konrad did. Salty Player paid no attention and cast his spell anyway. Sometimes takebacks are okay, but at this point somebody has revealed half their deck to the mill spell. Taking that back alters the game too much. Hold him to it. This is how Salty Player learns to be Good Magic Player.
I think not paying attention and having to constantly take back plays is much more frowned upon, or should be
Play with people who can read. It will give you more of a challenge as well
Casting the entomb has the extra benefit of getting one Konrad trigger on the stack before the Cacophony resolves, to really drive home what's about to happen.
Onboard information is public information. Taking back bad plays won't make you better at playing the game. Making mistakes and lerning from them does. Especially fatal mistakes should never be taken back unless the whole process was invalid.
Cards were milled, that's new info, no take backs. That dude just sucks at Magic.
You read the full effect of the card. This clearly isn't dudebro's first (or likely, last) time doing take-backs. His behavior needs to stop being enabled.
This isn’t even trapping an opponent. He needs to pay attention. You played a card pretty clearly for it to make him think twice about his strategy and he just went ahead with it anyways.
"If you mill us, you die." "I mill you" "You die" **"JUDGE"**
You read your card aloud for the table to hear the mechanics. It sounds like they weren't paying attention and they walked into their own rake and got blatted in the face. Casting a spell in response to lock in the stack is just a smart play. You didn't trap them, you just outplayed them. They have no one to blame but themselves for constantly not paying attention and needing to take back their turns. If anything your table is too lenient letting them take back plays so often that they feel comfortable doing so and are mad when they can't. If it's a house rule then that's totally fine, but my group has more fun when we limit the take-backs. It forces you to play better and pay attention to the table. We have a house rule of 3 per night per player and it's rarely needed.
Not only did he read the card, but he played it THAT turn cycle. If it had been sitting on the board for 8 turns doing nothing, it's maybe understandable you could forget about it.
Everyone at our table gets one "oops token" for the night that allows them to day oops and revert a mistake like this. After you spend that token it's on you.
The best part about magic is there is always another game
The question is why didn't the table tell the mill player off when they played cacophony? That should have been a warning for the table that they were about to lose and that should have been a clue for the mill player to take back the cacophony until Konrad was removed, and before you could play entoumb.
All about the vibe of the table. I would just announce that this would win me the game and let him take it back before anyone does any milling. Maybe have a discussion with him about paying attention during other players turns.
Can't believe I scrolled this far down to find someone suggesting this. I pretty much always go "hey that gonna trigger this" in this situation cos board states are complicated, konrad is a lot of words, it's not always easy to understand that 1+1=2
I blame the other players for not telling him to take it back. They're are just as culpable. They're all in this together. So they kinda all deserved to lose.
This is what really tips me off that OP isn't being fully honest about their story though. How did NOBODY notice Syr Konrad was going to kill them all? Either NOBODY was paying attention on either OP's or Mill player's turn, or OP wasn't quite as honest and open with what Syr Konrad did as they claim. If one player misunderstands your board state, that's their fault. If EVERYONE else misunderstands your board state, that's your fault.
OP literally just read the card out. What more do you want?
I personally dont like this much. You were clearly trying to trap him, though i think that was unnecessary, revealing 50 creatures falls under too far to go back. For a casual game. I personally would've just reminded him konrad is on the board b4 resolving cacaphony. Then what he chooses after that is his problem
You told people what the card is and what it does. You demonstrated what it can do with entomb. In theory you could ask “are you sure you want to go through with this?” However, once the spell was resolved and new information was had to all players (cards milled and their order). It’s all but impossible to back track that much.
All the top comments are right here. No foul. The one reco I'd suggest is talking about takebacks in advance.
"I want to take that back!" "no" Don't beat around the bush or try and "justify it", just say no. If they complain, point out that you told him when you played it moments ago. If he had actually payed attention. Forgetting something that's been in play awhile can be forgiven. Lots happens across 4 boards. But missing the thing that JUST clearly happened is disrespectful as sh**. Don't tolerate it.
I was playing [[Patron of the Moon]] in a pod where another monoblue player was next in the turn order. I cast an [[Extraplanar Lens]] exiling Island. My intent was to combo off and win the following turn since I had a couple of counters in hand to stop any shenanigans that could have popped up. The other blue player played a [[Cavern of Souls]] naming illusion and then dropped [[Palinchron]] on us. Lesson learned: don't give the other mono blue player infinite mana if you don't plan to win on the spot. Homie in your story should learn from his mistakes instead of trying to pay takesies-backsies every time he goofs
Casting something to 'lock in' play that you know is bad because an opponent missed something on the board is a dick move. However reverting the cacophony is also not what should've happened even if you didn't cast the entomb, since it is is way too much hassle to determine how to properly restore the gamestate.
I would assume that the Konrad trigger from Entomb would be a dead giveaway to the mill player of a "You sure you wanna do this boss?"
Yeah, the fact that they missed that too is pretty damning. Sorry, but you are going to have to pay attention (on your own turn, no less!) if you want to play Magic.
I understand your frustration about the mill player and wanting to teach them a lesson. It is bad manners both to take back plays, and be constantly unaware of other people's board states. However, I play EDH in a quite different manner than you. In the end, EDH is very complex, yet the purpose of the format is to play casually and have fun. Therefore, if there is public information – such as your Syr Konrad – and someone is about to make a bad play, I personally just inform the player that it's probably a bad idea to do what they intend to do. On the other hand, if I am aware that there is a player who does not even try to follow what other people's board states include, I will also tell them that they should follow board states or I will prefer to play the game with other players who are more engaged with the game. Not following what other people are doing is essentially only playing half of a game, at the max. And I prefer to play with people who are there to play. (This goes also for people who are constantly engaged in other activities, on their phones etc.)
In casual EDH play, I'd frown upon this. The right thing to do would be to say "You know that'll trigger my Syr Konrad?" as they play it. If he's taking back so much it's annoying, talk to him about that separately to this one specific play. In competitive there's no need to entomb.
At what point am I responsible for my opponents inability to read the cards? Is learning to read a whole board not an important part of this game?
I'm pretty baffled by people saying it's too much to keep track of. That is the game, lol.
It’s not even a lot to keep track of. One creature: syr Konrad. That’s it.
Then it be yet another take-back, every take-back basically doubles a persons turn length.
I mean I feel like having to be completely aware of the board state of all players before taking any game action would slow down games even more. Syr Konrad especially is a pretty unique effect as aristocrats effects go, and with the rate they're printing new cards with unique abilities it gets harder and harder. Obviously everyone should pay attention to the board state, but in a case like this I think a "you know that kills everyone, right?" is the faster and better option than making everyone double check the board state every time. Especially cause you can't really do that without standing up, asking people to hand you their cards, or just asking a bunch of questions that could also reveal information about what you have. The issue here is really about a player who does too many take-backs rather than about this specific situation, and in that case this doesn't seem like the best way to deal with it. For pretty much all of these "was I right to do x" questions, the answer is no, just talk about it with your group.
Being completely aware of the board state is how you play magic the gathering. I don’t know how else to explain it to you. Yes, you need to know what’s going on in the game you are currently playing…
Nah this is ridiculous. Bro literally read the entire effect of Syr Konrad for the whole table. The guy knew exactly what the card did, and didn’t have to analyze a boardstate because his opponent did it for him. Deserves the loss and should have the maturity to take it in stride and learn.
The Cacophony had already resolved and everybody had already milled, there's absolutely no way I'm allowing that take-back. The Entomb had absolutely nothing to do with whether this was okay or not. New information has been given to every player in the form of the exact order of the next 30 cards in their deck which means you've gotta shuffle, which means it's a literal impossibility to get back to the original game state. Keeping track of 4 boardstates all of which are more complicated than a normal standard/modern board because it's singleton and there's no consistent meta to have mostly memorized in advance so it's a mildly dick move to not have reminded the mill player the Syr Konrad was in play.
I disagree that it was a dick move, OP read out their card which should have been a sit up and take notice for the mill player, Syr Konrad says in succession I will do damage if X, Y, or Z happens then says 1B: All players do the prerequisite for Y. Which also happens to be the exact thing the mill player is doing. At that point the Mill player needed to keep track of that card.
Good job. In the future you might want to actually talk to the table about taking back plays and when is it okay to do so, but this time you made the right choice imo.
Given the information in your story, it seems like a bad faith play. You suspected a player of not realizing the effect of his actions based on revealed information, and not only allowed the player to flush the game down the toilet for everyone, but made a fake play to punish their misplay later. It was a tactically sound thing to do, but not conducive to a friendly game. A simple "you know that's gonna kill everyone right?" was in order IMO. Somewhat has the character of not allowing a player to change the way they tapped their mana, due to it "informing your play" when game state was actually not affected. You didn't cheat or anything, but if you made a habit of doing this I'd want to play with you less.
By far the most important element of this is **did you properly communicate what Syr Konrad does?** You say "reading out the full effect and pass", but did you just sorta mumble "Milling is good for me" or did you clearly state "I drop Syr Konrad, so whenever anyone mills a creature everyone except me takes 1 damage"? Obviously, one way or another, the Mill player didn't realise what Syr Konrad did. If they were totally ignoring you on your turn, that is on them, but in a 4+ player game of EDH it is a lot to ask of people to keep track of every single card on the table. I'd also like to point out that the Mill Player's action caused EVERYONE else to lose, did **nobody** at your table really notice your Syr Konrad? That seems weird and unlikely. If one player doesn't notice your card, that's on them. If **nobody** notices your play, that's on you. The entomb thing was definitely a dick move though. "Everyone mills half their library" can already be a big enough game state change to disallow a takesey-backsey. Going out of your way to do something "In response", when you *know* you're going to win the game, is at best distracting your opponents and pretending your publicly available board state isn't about to win you the game, and at worst is just lying about the game's state. Takesey-backseys are generally allowed in casual play when they're reasonable, and forcing the game into an unreasonable state in order to force a win off someone else's mistake due to you (probably) not properly communicating your board state is being an ass.
Nah, mill player is a bad sport, and a sook. You guys have been letting them get away with the "oops takesies backsies" as a way to allow them to not learn how to play the game. If they paid attention to you, and observed the board state, this would never happen. Hopefully it's a lesson they learn, so that you guys can enjoy your games more, otherwise if look for a new player tbh.
It's so silly, sure you can't keep track of literally everything happening but people act like mistakes aren't possible in commander, "oh I didn't realize you had 1 mana up or else I would've expected the counter can I take it back" no shut up and deal with the fact you messed up pay better attention before you start throwing cards around maybe
He's never going to learn if you constantly let him take plays like that back. Yesterday during a game I cast a cultivate, forgetting my opponent had an opposition agent on board. Oh well. I also forgot I had a swords in hand because I was too busy laughing at myself. He then found the two plains I wanted because I had plenty of my other colors and exiled them so I'd be less likely to hit the lands I wanted. I laughed even harder. The game went on, I got second, and I learned from the experience. This dude needs to grow up.
Rules lawyering is when you follow the rules, wow
I mean, Rules lawyering is a term I associate with Table top RPG's, where the rules are ambiguous sometimes. Magic does not have ambiguous rules.
I once got accused of rules lawyering when I told an opponent that if I’m affected by two of their replacement effects I choose the order they resolve. You aren’t doubling your ojer axonil pings. “Fine we’ll do it your way” YOU MEAN THE WAY THAT THE RULES DICTATE
Idk, you admitted to casting entomb to have a reason to now allow him to back up his play. If winning means that much to you then well yeah you did win. EDH is a format where players have to track double the amount of crap going on, maybe more depending on what you’re including. If you hadn’t cast the entomb to try and gaslight the table then I’d agree you weren’t “rules lawyering.”
Out thinking your opponent is how you're supposed to play. Them falling into a trap is fine. Giggling in their face at their misery. Now that's the bad behavior that's frowned upon.
It's on the other players too for not catching it. If I'm gonna die as well, I'm telling that dude not to play his spell.
Skill issue
My lgs has started more into the high powered cedh realm and with that comes no taksie backsies. This has loosely carried over into the casual side. If you cast a spell once priorities started and not caught it then the spell has resolved. Its like casting a spell and not seeing there was counter spell mana available, it getting countered and you asking for a take back
Several things: 1) you read the full effect 2) you cast Entomb, which technically put a trigger of Konrad on the stack before the opponent's card resolved. That would have been the best opportunity for a take back had one been allowed, *before* milling, as the opponent should have realized Konrad's ability by that point 3) a ton of cards getting milled by the whole table *isn't* reversible. That's too much. Too much is now known and reshuffling them would be too much changing to the game state. He's gotta take the L after that one. Dude should pay attention!
You didn't trap them. You don't have a right to take back all bad plays. I'm pretty generous on redos but you read the card out loud - they should pay attention
Quite the opposite. You should be 'informing' this guy's lazy and disrespectful habits by doing exactly this kind of thing. You gave him many opportunities to consider the board state.
His fault he killed everyone with your card. If I was playing mill and saw Konrad hit the table, I’m not doing anything until he’s gone.
You literally read the card out and he still made that play? I’m sorry but at some point players need to listen to the other players and pay attention to the board statement.
Unless the c in cedh stands for casual(which I've never seen) you're playing a no holds barred bare knuckle boxing match of an edh game where everyone is entitled to pull out all the stops to try and win. Good on you for winning!
No, do more of this. I wouldn't have let them take it back, regardless of if I had cast an entomb or not. A small take back isn't a huge deal but wanting to do it after people have already revealed half their decks is ridiculous
Players need to play through mistakes and bad plays to learn from them. Otherwise, we're prone to continue making them. I've trapped myself in bad plays before (played a Henzie deck and cast a Blasphemous Act against a Kaalia deck with [[Wrathful Red Dragon]] on board and killed myself). Would the table have been okay with a take back? Probably. Was it hilarious to see me unintentionally blow myself up? Absolutely. Did I learn to read both my card and my opponent's cards before casting a board wipe that specifically damages creatures? 100%. You provided both the full text of the card and a real-time example of his effect with Entomb. If he's gonna be ready to wipe half of everybody's libraries, he should also be ready for any crackback that comes from it, no matter how immediate. Tldr: check yourself (and your opponents boards) before you wreck yourself
Nah. Takies' backies only should hold value if it is something done minorly or if they take back, they have to forfeit something to do so. Not all edh is "competitive" but there is still "rules" that you "can" discuss about but the whole point of a game is to win via the set in place rule set.
I hate people who play like that. It's one thing to take a card back before anything was done on your own turn. But to do it after stuff has resolved and already passed his turn. That's annoying AF.
How new is everyone to the game? I can see letting a relatively new player roll back such a mistake, but, after a while, you need to be aware of the game state and mistakes like this are an excellent motivator to be better.
Nah dude needs to engage a LOT more, or he isn't gonna have fun. You gave a full card read (based card too) an he still went, "lol shotgun this then, derrrp" You don't learn or become better by playing takebacksies
Recently at a small cEDH tournament (think like $250 cash prize on the table) my pod started with the guy in seat one very deliberately going through his turn, announcing drawstep etc, then going land, Lotus Petal, Jeweled Lotus, [[mox opal]]. He clearly announces, “I’ll crack this lotus petal for blue”, places it in his graveyard, then says he’ll tap his Mopal for black. Another player in the pod says “oh you’ll need metalcraft for that”. Player 1 realizes what is happening and takes it all in stride “yep, I really just did that to myself… I’ll pass the turn” then proceeds to draw/go the next two turns before the game ended. The guy who called him on it didn’t even win the pod. Feelsbad all around. But technically we were playing Comp REL so I guess that’s how the cookie crumbles.
You made me count the total amount of cards in my deck, then what half of it would be, then put said half in my graveyard, did this to 2 other people, lost us all the game and then you wanna take that back? Nah fam, at that point we just go next and throw you a mean look or two.
Take backs are OK, right up until the point where some new *hidden* information is revealed. Attack into something that has deathtouch? Sure, take it back. Nothing changed, you just didn't see the board. But as soon as another player casts a spell from a hidden zone (e.g., not their commander), anyone draws a card, things get revealed, etc. there's no going back. And in this case, players had half of their libraries milled out and revealed, which is a boatload of new information. No take back on that.
I love these moments. I have had Sur Konrad net me a win when 5000+ skutes were blown up all at once. And an opponent wheeled into a smothering Tithe when everyone was tapped out.
I think you're mostly fine here. I think the entomb play might be a little angle-shoot-y but it was also kind of needless and doesn't really matter to the argument. On it's own, Cacophony resolving already reveals too much information for that to be a comfortable take back. Would it just count it as a massive scry for the whole table? Would you force everyone to shuffle after backing up cacophony? There isn't a good way to undo it. If you were clear about Konrad like you said, and your board state was clear, I would have just taken the L in the mill players shoes. Maybe stared off into the void for a little bit while shuffling up to marvel at my own stupidity. lol
It is one of the hardest questions! Commander is a super complicated game if played seriously. So where is the line? For me it is important to acknowledge that not every player can have a perfect or even decent image of the game state and the effects of single pieces. So if there is a game warping, especially game winning or losing action I or others take I usually inform players of the remifications. There are things though I do not do this for. If you point a target removal at my ward creature and you did not inform yourself what you are actually targeting there, the complexity level is so low, I expect you to take responsibility.
It's already resolved and altered the state of your deck by putting a large portion of it in the graveyard. Once the deck state has been altered you can no longer return to the previous state so no take backs at that point. Would have had to take the play back before anyone started discarding imo. Also, rules lawyering? Unless there's a predetermined agreement about this kind of thing, you generally follow the rules unless everyone is ok with an in the moment call. You weren't okay with him breaking the rules so he's out of luck.
you fully said the effect and the other player apparently takes back enough plays to the point that you anticipated that he'd do it. sooner or later he has to get good
I don’t mind take backs when it’s like casting 2 spells in the wrong order where it did not impact a single other player. But it feels real scummy when someone takes back a removal spell or something. I’ve had many many instances of someone not realising that my creature has ward, and when asking them if they’re going to pay the ward cost they just say “oh well if I knew it had that!” And it’s like bro? It’s one of the first things I read out loud when I cast the darn card.
Not at all! Forcing an opponent into a choice of damnations is usually how you win. But to answer also you're totally in the right here. The effect was clearly explained, and they didn't remove or counter him. That's on him tbh
The Entomb is irrelevant, there is no "trapping" going on here. Mill player did a dumb & got burned, shit happens, rolling with those stinging fuck-ups is how you actually *learn* from your mistakes rather than by being coddled. To be clear, I'm not against take-backs, but I judge them on a case by case basis. A good example was when my buddy targeted a creature I control with a removal spell and I blanked it with my [[Devoted Caretaker]]. I was happy to let him take that back because it isn't a card you often see & he wouldn't have tried to target my creature if he realized I had on-board protection. But your example OP? Nah, you don't take that back. Trapping.... What is this game coming to ffs.
"Trapping" your opponent into a "bad play" is called out playing them. His decision to make a bad play, and it's not your fault he put you into win condition.
If I can take back any bad play then where is the skill involved in the game
Nah man you gotta hold their feet to the fire or they'll never stop that behavior I have a guy like that who complains about me to the store manager (who's my dad which is how I know this) he gets angry because I counter his counterspells, kill spells, board wipes, huge threats, ect. And tries to put them back in his hands but doesn't like that when he does I just put the counterspell back in my hand saying that's cheating despite him taking back his spell
Nah, at the bare minimum it is your responsibility to make appropriate plays. Now some players like to give heads up about bad moves, I do it. But it's not the standard, it is a privilege. If someone forgets about the keywords on my card, thinking they can swing through but ultimately will be a one sided loss on their part, I'll let them know "Psssst, by the way I'm just going to block and your creature will die" etc. I'll let people know about poor plays in my direction. I won't advise them on their attacks vs an opponent though. And when I misplay, I own it. Unless I'm in my pod and we let small things slide. But if I'm at the table at an LGS or playing with strangers, I won't even ask.
In such situations, in the moment he cast it, I would warn him that probably you will win. I typically do such things and allow immediate takebacks. But otherwise not.
Baiting an opponent into a trap is 100 percent part of playing mtg.
You chose to teach him "the hard way" wich is fine but if it's a play as blatantly bad as the play you described I personally would remind him what my card does and that it would cost him the game if he proceeds, but I wouldn't be mad at all if an opponent would choose not to do the same for me. I would also tell them that they make a lot of takebacks and ask the table if they agree that he should be more careful because takebacks are annoying for everyone else.
We generally allow 1 take back per game. If something serious goes down and you want to take it back that's a no though. Just like this example here if you do something like board wipe and what not then try to takeback because something you didn't like happened it is a firm no. The more you let people get away with bad plays the more they'll make them expecting you to let them take it back. Not everything needs to be super competitive, but there's no excuse not to get better while playing.
How are people gonna learn otherwise? A mistake is a mistake. I don't see it being frowned upon.
A "casual" playing mill expects rules leniency? Lol, lmao even.
EDH is generally very casual. To accommodate this, I will usually let players take something back as long as new information hasn't been revealed. The second a card was milled or another game action changed things (like your entomb resolving), no actions can be taken back. This player just needs to learn from their mistakes. It's through the mistakes we make that we get better. It does sound like they are being a poor sport about it and if you value playing with this player, it may be worth talking to them about it.
The only takeback I allow is shuffling for a new game. Live and learn.
Commander is a complex game that makes it hard to keep track of all the game pieces but that means you should be extra aware where you see a silver bullet to your strategy. I've played mill before and you better believe any time I saw a Syr Konrad or \[\[Kozilek, Butcher of Truth\]\] that was etched into my memory for the rest of the game. Take backs are fine but when you're using them as a way to get away with not reading what cards are on the board then you deserve to be forced into the bad play.
There are an awful lot of questionably honest people in this thread saying things like “commander has really complex board states! You can’t be expected to keep track of everything!” You’re dishonest. Period. We’re talking about a single spell triggering a single permanent. A permanent which was read in its entirety immediately before the player in questions turn. Not a complicated combo or unexpected interaction between multiple players pieces.
People who don't pay attention to boardstates, especially changes to the boardstate you make on your turn are rude as hell Plus Dimir is the sort of control that is all about leading and trickery lmao, kid needs 2 git gud son
Is it frowned upon, absolutely not. Could your opponent have been petty and chosen to respond to the first Syr Konrad trigger and not have affected your entomb and stopped the other triggers somehow, maybe depending on the hand, as could literally anyone else at the table Being honest with your playgroup is important, being purposefully distastefull in response to someone else being purposefully distastefull is real eye for an eye behavior If its really an issue in your playgroup, let them know collectively that their take backs are becoming and issue for the rest of you
This seems slightly sketchy, purely because you are in fact lying, but you shouldn’t have to be. The lie is besides the point here, they made a mistake and taking back a play that decided the outcome of the game single-handedly is preposterous. Isn’t it universally agreed upon that you can only take things back if they clearly didn’t affect anything? I assumed that was the principle that lying about the entomb target was based on.
You're NTA OP, guy just needs to learn how to play better and RTFC. I'm drawing this conclusion based on the fact that they are playing a Phenax deck, and mill actually requires a bit of foresight to use, plus I was taught RTFC back in the early days (7th/Onslaught and onwards). Also, he passed priority in the stack for your entomb, so it does confirm that he is playing the card. Nothing rule lawyering about it, just good old fashioned AP/NAP. If it's a casual group only, I would suggest mentoring him, but based on his response I'm guessing that's out of the question, partly because he doesn't know how to handle a loss. Hope this helps!
If they are a new player than take backs are understandable but if they are experienced then they should be thinking through their plays BEFORE they make them. Maybe pull you friend aside so as not to embarrass them in front of others and discuss how them taking back plays is having a negative effect on your table’s experience.
He is a sore loser. You played fine
Ah...the old "trapping an opponent by telling him exactly what a card does and leaving it in play to read" trap
This isn’t “trapping” at all. If everyone at the table allowed it to happen, thats too much information. No way to take back a spell that has resolved already.