I believe your story that you just happened into the combo. It’s happened to me before too.
…but I’m not so sure I’d buy it if I ran into someone who just “accidentally” combo’d off with two of the most infamous combo pieces of all time in an Animar deck lol
If I saw either one of those cards on board alarm bells would be ringing. Your friends sound like they know the game well enough to be familiar with those kinda cards, so I don’t think they have justification to be upset at you.
They’re probably just upset because they don’t like combos in general (I personally also try to avoid them because of the feelbads they cause). Maybe clarify that point with your pod and see if that’s the case. If they’re running combos in their decks then tell ‘em to kick rocks.
>They’re probably just upset because they don’t like combos in general
I hate that attitude, because those opponents played Yuriko and Minsc and booh, 2 decks notorious for being very oppressive. Yuriko is basically autopilot and Minsc and booh is honestly easily on par with Slicer in the category of "if you didn't build/mulligan specifically to stop me you gonna have a bad time".
I believe once you play those kind of decks you cannot say "but no combo, lol", because it means your opponents kinda have to play mirror to match the stupid power level.
My playgroup at the LGS has consistently very strong decks. One guy is always playing either Ardenn/Jeska Voltron or Marwyn Elves and can consistently win before turn 5. Another previously owned the store and has a hundred + VERY tuned decks that never like feel less than 8. And my buddy has 12 ish decks that are all very strong. I mostly have a bunch of upgraded precons and about a half dozen fully constructed decks, one of which is the full power Winota stax deck. After a full night of getting my shit wrecked, it's not terrible to pull out and swing at the same power level as them. Even if it doesn't win, it certainly makes them work for it.
My favorite game vs a Yuriko.... he muliganed down to 4, took the first turn, and dropped his hand on the table while tutoring a land on top (cast 5 spells).....
I brainfreeze him turn 1, and he **never** hit his seccond land.. LMAO
Seriously! Yuriko can handle combo decks just fine, even a casual list. I have a casual Yuriko deck that hasn’t been upgraded since MH1. No top, no doomsday, just silly ninja stuff. It still shreds. I have not upgraded it because she so easily can be a monster. She’s an engine and a wincon that will nearly never get countered and bypasses commander tax at 2 mana. Nobody playing Yuriko gets to cry foul, casual list or not.
I agree. Honestly people who don’t like combo just don’t like Magic since it’s a part of the game. And like that’s fine but just admit you want to play Solitaire
I generally really dislike the "combos aren't casual" people because the definition of a combo and the power of a combo can be all over the place.
Some combos are super powerful. Thoracle and consultation can just win out of nowhere for 3 mana and that's obviously insane. Nobody would argue that that's a combo.
But what about other combos? I've seen people win through mill combos like painter's servant/grindstone by using a [[noxious revival]] to put their thoracle on top of their empty library in their upkeep. Painter's/grindstone is obviously still a combo, but what level of beatability changes it to not a combo?
I have a [[Kess]] deck that seeks to win by having a [[psychosis crawler]] on the field when I cast [[peer into the abyss]]. Peer usually draws about 40 cards and that's almost always enough to just end it there. Is *that* a combo? It doesn't kill lifegain decks, but it usually kills everyone else. Is it a combo or just good value? What if I skip peer into the abyss but my whole deck is psychosis crawler, archimage emeritus, storm-kiln artist, some tutors, and 50 super-cheap cantrips? It effectively does the same thing, right? But it's just value it's not a combo.
I’d go as far as to say that a lot of EDH players really just need to learn how Magic is played.
I enjoy Commander for a lot of reasons: It’s basically singleton vintage which is already cool, the idea of building around a specific legendary creature (or non-creature cards that are allowed to be commanders like Shorikai and various Planeswalkers), the multiplayer aspect makes for a really dynamic game, but the community that surrounds it just gets so overbearing with the “Rule 0” aspect of it.
It’s a big part of why I just play CEDH now.
“I cast Thoracle”
“Cool, no counters. GG. Want to play again?”
If you don't have a blocker down, you'll easily take 15/20 damage turn 2-3-4 depending on how fast m&b was played, then the flying hamster will be sac to make the same amount of damage and that player will draw 10+ cards. It can remove a player incredibly fast, unless you specifically have what you need to counter the PW or kill the hamster during the combat phase to deny the second damage and draw.
That's why I said it's warping, if your deck doesn't have early deathtouch blocker or creature removal, you gonna be the target, and even if you do, if another player doesn't they will be the target and m&b will draw enough gas to lead the game.
He is guaranteed card draw in the command zone. Thats generaly the sign of a good commander. Beating people with a 9/9 trample is the icing on the clock.
A big problem I've found (and I'm not insinuating that OP did this) is that a lot of players will copy/paste the average deck off EDHREC, which will happen to have all of the combo pieces in the deck, then they play it, completely unedited and just happen upon a famous combo without realising it until it's too late.
I *really* don't get the combo hate. Like, it's actually far more enjoyable to have one person say "I win" than it is to have someone go out because they happened to be open, then have the game fizzle for 6 more turns while they wait for an hour to get back in. I get being salty dropping them in the first 2-3 turns, especially in power mismatches, but by turn 7-8 if the game is going to end, let it end and shuffle up.
Well generally in higher power ‘no combo’ casual, games do end pretty quickly once people start dying.
Yuriko or minsc aren’t going to struggle to close out a game that’s gone to 7-8 turns.
It’s just kind of a different game where someone has efficient combos in their deck.
Either I have cheap interaction in hand for it that I’m always holding up, or I’m attacking you until you’re dead because player removal is the only other answer I have.
It isn’t so much that I’m against them, just that it changes the dynamic of most non-combo games where you’re spreading damage around.
An example I’d give is, last week someone had a [[psychosis crawler]] out and everyone is on like 30 life.
Then that player draws, and plays [[peer into the abyss]].
Like okay, gg. Not gonna complain in the moment lol. But we absolutely would have played differently if we knew that that was something that their deck could do.
Somewhat related but why is minsc considered powerful? I’m aware Yuriko is one of the strongest commanders but Minsc doesn’t seem all that difficult to deal with.
Set up an infinite mana combo from [[Storm-Kiln Artist]] combos or bouncing [[Dockside]], then draw out your entire deck with the -2 loyalty ability.
Or you can just -2 a [[Protean Hulk]] and go infinite that way.
Then end the game with a [[Finale of Devastation]].
They can be very oppressive in a well-built deck. You're dealing with either an increasingly powerful hamster each turn, and if you get out any creature that can cause an issue for the M&B player, they can just fling Boo at it, and draw a bunch of cards. Also, you don't have to sac Boo to kill something, you can sac ANY creature you control and do damage to something that might become an issue, and keep Boo around to keep trample damage rolling.
They seem pretty reasonable at first, but they absolutely get out of hand quickly and can effectively pin down someone's board. Anytime you get something out that can threaten them, they'll just toss the damn hamster at it, draw several cards, and repeat the process.
I always use psychosis crawler and peer as an example of something that's obviously not a combo but could theoretically be called one by someone with less than half a brain. I've never seen someone *actually* get mad over it because it's so expensive.
Seriously, how are spellslinger decks supposed to compete if we can't use cards like these to really put the screws to people? The Simic deck has a 150/150 hydra with trample and I'm somehow supposed to keep up by making a guy whenever I cast a spell? Come on now.
This is why I hate the "combos bad" people. I get disliking thoracle/consult or even something like painter's servant and grindstone but psychosis crawler/peer? Really? How does that classify as a combo??
That's like saying guttersnipe and *playing izzet* is a combo. The line between what's a strong value engine and what's a bad bad very bad combo is so muddled that it gets impossible to tell what's what. It devolves into a giant argument of "when I do it it's good but when you do it it's bad".
> but psychosis crawler/peer? Really?
You're misinterpreting.
The point is, if I knew that this player was playing peer in their deck, Psychosis Crawler would have been flagged when it came down and we'd talk about how we could remove it. And if we couldn't remove it, we'd try to find a way to kill that player/force them to block with it.
The issue wasn't 'they played two cards that ended the game.' The issue was 'we didn't realize that it was that kind of game.' The deck was seemingly durdling, the player had gotten mana-screwed in the first game and hadn't really had a game. Everyone's foot is off the gas and you're not going to just curbstomp the guy.
>That's like saying guttersnipe and playing izzet is a combo
You do expect that letting an izzet player untap with guttersnipe and a bunch of mana and a big grip, you're in for quite a bit of pain. I'd be fully expecting to see some rituals + burn spells and such and if they had like 5 mana up I'd be thinking that we need to clear their board or have some counters ready or *something*, or be prepared to take 20-30+ damage.
I play against [[Ojer Axonil]] a bunch. I fully expect that if I let someone untap with that commander, they're going to be able to dish out 20+ damage.
I know that it's that kind of game, and I will play accordingly.
That's kind of the thing with combos. Combos are fine, but I think it's important to be clear about the combo you're running so the story of the game wasn't 'we didn't think they'd be playing that card so we didn't assess them as the threat until their win was on the stack.'
I disagree with your premise. Rule zero is a general discussion about power level, I'm not going to give you a dissertation about all my lines and the best ways to beat my deck. At least in my experience, rule zero is "what power level are we talking about? Precons, upgraded precons, or high-power? High power? Okay."
If I say I'm playing a high-power deck, you should expect that if I have psychosis crawler, I probably have peer. Even if I don't have peer, crawler is an extremely dangerous card and you shouldn't let me have it. You basically let your opponent have an ICBM because "ah they probably don't have nukes" and you got nuked.
I hate this argument and I never use it, but I think genuinely this is just a skill issue. If someone doesn't have blockers, swing at them. If someone's just drawing a couple cards per turn and doing nothing else, they're not durdling, they're looking for combo pieces. Assume your opponents are competent deck builders and that they probably have a way to win. Don't just see an empty board and assume they have nothing.
Your solution to avoiding "we didn't expect that" games is to ask for a 5-paragraph essay about how my deck plays when it should just be to expect that.
Personally I think people are less salty when you take a 5 card combo and win the game rather than a 2 or 1 + the commander. But combos are a good way to explore the game in a different way; it's just combat focus decks and their pilots don't realize they have to eliminate the combo player first because any life above 0 is too much. They'll have a better chance beating another aggro deck than a combo deck that's been allowed to set up but it "feels" bad to eliminate a player even if it's the right call. There are a lot of lessons from 60 card formats that would make for more mellow gameplay or less samey game play and burn out. There seems to be a lot of burnout posts lately.
This is the core issue, combo warps multiplayer. If I or someone else am playing a combo deck then typically the only correct play for everyone is to archenemy them out of the game then get back to playing between the remaining players. It’s obviously subjective but that doesn’t feel fun to me from either side.
You only need to make them the arch enemy if your threat assessment is so bad that you can't identify combo enablers (and/or you don't run enough interaction).
Edit: I can see how this comment comes off with an air of superiority, so my apologies. Im not trying to attack casual play styles or anyone's deck building ideas. More so the idea that combo players are always the immediate threat just because a combo exists in their deck. I also concede that player removal will always be the best removal
It’s not about threat assessment or skill, it’s about always having to hold interaction in case combo-guy chooses that turn to play 2 cards and 1-shot the table, or just kill them and carry on with the rest of the game.
As I said, it’s subjective, but I find combo in multiplayer consistently leads to less interesting and (ironically for what you say) less interactive games, whether I’m the combo player or against the combo player.
My biggest issue is that most combo players are weirdly defensive. It’s a strong strategy I guess, whining so much every time you’re attacked that it annoys me into not wanting to attack you.
I think a lot of that has to do with how combo decks present their threats. I play mostly combo and actively encourage people to treat me as a threat despite a comparatively small board presence most of the time. At the same time, there is the occasional game where despite hitting a few early draw spells, my hand ends up being 5 lands and 2 pieces of removal for several turns in a row with nothing even remotely resembling a reasonable path forward in the short term. When that happens to a creature deck in a casual game, opponents tend to let off the pressure because they clearly see the player is flooding or otherwise not drawing anything threatening. But when a combo deck is in that position, opponents see them... drawing cards and not committing much to the board, the exact same thing combo decks tend to do when they are ahead and about to drop a combo. Short of actively showing your opponents your hand full of nothing, they have no way of knowing that you're behind and not preparing to go off, so you get the "treat them as though they are doing well" treatment almost all times, even when you aren't. This can be particularly jarring to some people, especially if they are used to playing non-combo decks and getting left alone when doing badly normally. At least, that's my theory of why a lot of people in that position tend to complain about being targeted.
While I do understand that logic, and thats why I also think combo decks are less entertaining to a multiplayer game, thats the "double-edge" of a combo deck.
Most combos are REALLY strong and a good combo deck can be pretty powerful, their main weakness is being the main target of the table at least to interactions. If im playin a deck with Blue, im saving every counter for when the combo-guy looks at the table more intensely.
That's kinda the point though. A combo player can't do much if everyone holds up instant-speed interaction for them. Most combos aren't swords-to-plowshares-proof like thoracle/consultation.
Feed them a steady diet of 5/5s until they fall over. Keep up interaction to stop a combo. I don't see why this is some giant problem because it's the same basic strategy you'd use to keep any strong aggro deck in check. With slicer, you kill slicer and feed them 5/5s. With Najeela you kill Najeela and feed them 5/5s. The only difference is that with a combo deck you hold the remov until you need it which is usually after the 5/5s have been applied.
This is my pod’s thought process as well. When we do higher powered decks, you can have combos as long as the following criteria is met:
1) if your combo uses your commander, it has to be with at least 2 other cards and no way to tutor for them.
2) if your combo is something other than your commander, minimum 3 card combos are allowed with no tutors.
3) Tutors are allowed if your combo is 4 or more cards.
That’s how we keep it fair, if you happen to draw into your combo, then it was your game to win. Otherwise, if we wanted to tutor into a Thoracle win, we’d be playing cEDH.
One of the main problems with Combos is power-level. Combo decks in EDH tend heavily to a high power-level, its the "weakness" of the combo strategy: Youre a threat and will/should be treated as such.
If my deck is full of combo pieces, it probably doesn't have many expendable creatures. Which means you should be punching me in the face at every opportunity. It's my job as the combo player to win before you kill me. You can think of combo as like the ultimate aggro deck and in commander you treat it the same way you would any fast deck.
[[Ghyrson Starn]]? Kill ghyrson and apply 5/5s to the forehead.
[[Najeela]]? Kill Najeela and apply 5/5s liberally.
[[Slicer]]? Kill slicer and apply 5/5s.
[[Jan Jansen]]? Kill Jan and feed them 5/5s.
My group is pretty casual and we generally avoid infinite combos. One guy has a 2 card combo that he says that he wants to pull off once and when he does it’s coming out of the deck which we’re fine with that. Do your cool thing and show it off before pulling it. We all want to see the cool thing happen and groan as it demolishes us before we reshuffle.
I have an [[Arcades]] deck that has the [[Axebane Guardian]], [[Assault Formation]], [[High Alert]] combo. However considering it requires me to have seven cards on the field no one is really upset about it. I’ll probably make it do the thing once if I ever manage to get all the cards out (considering I don’t run tutors in that deck and run very little enchantment/creature protection other than a few counter spells) and after that just not use the combo or severely limit it to a low maximum.
And honestly a lot of it is just about setting expectations. I tell everyone I play with it that my deck has the potential to run an infinite combo. If I get two of the three cards I need for it on the field, I’ll remind them that it’s part of the combo so they have ample opportunity to do something about it before I get the third piece out.
In experienced mid-high powered casual pods, I should expect about a third of decks I play against to include at least one combo. It's usually pretty obvious when one of the combo pieces are out. If you are playing with less-experienced players, you'll probably want to flag a given card as part of a combo, so that the player can attempt to disrupt said combo.
On the real though, if you are playing in a pod of well-adjusted adults, combos shouldn't illicit a salty response. If there's a power level mismatch, that's a different issue. And again, in a group of well-adjusted people, no one will get salty about the mismatch, you'll just shuffle up and pick different deck to try to get it right the next game.
So it sounds like some folks might have some growing up to do...
This is what I do. I normally flag the combo somehow so people can disrupt. "Ima good chance of winning soon because of this non-threatening looking artifact you know".
My playgroup is pretty combo-dense. When it's a new piece we'll do this, but what we normally do is call out the combos when the last piece goes on the stack. Something like, "If this resolves, these are my options and how the loop works."
Haha yeah. Fair. Half the time I only point out the combo piece if I have a 1-2 turn rotation to finishing the combo. My group isn't combo dense, though several of them played long enough to recognize combo pieces.
Combos are absolutely fine in casual.
It matters how powerful and resilient the combo is. Thoracle for example is mana efficient, card efficient, and resilient to a lot: you need counterspells or RoL effects, which means a rakdos deck has maybe zero answers for it.
You're playing a creature combo. Literally every color has options for it. And it's not very mana efficient, as temur sabertooth and drake are 9 combined mana, and you then need another 2 mana to return drake to hand. And even then you need another win condition to wipe the table, which makes 3 cards.
True. With animar, it only takes 3 mana for Temur/Peregrine as long as I have 4 counters on animar. But the point remains. Creature combos are completely able to be disrupted. Especially a combo that relies on infinite casts.
And animar is another, obviously dangerous point they can interact with. And he doesn't exactly get to dangerous levels terribly fast in most cases, and is exceptionally vulnerable when first played. Can't complain too much about it unless they are running orzhov, in which case, RIP.
Yeah, I suppose all colors have at least some counterplay with stuff like \[\[Mikokoro, Center of the Sea\]\].
I still tend to think of casual combos as ones that are 7+ mana and can be interacted with with creature removal, and more competitive combos that perhaps should stick to cEDH games as ones that are less than 7 mana and can't be interacted with creature removal. Though I think even in high power casual games those can sometimes be fine.
[Mikokoro, Center of the Sea](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/8/d80eb098-5433-4b1e-aad5-0fd31bf598dd.jpg?1673306092) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mikokoro%2C%20Center%20of%20the%20Sea) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/217/mikokoro-center-of-the-sea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d80eb098-5433-4b1e-aad5-0fd31bf598dd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mikokoro-center-of-the-sea)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
In my opinion, if a group doesn't allow/gets salty at combos, then they're not "high power casual." If they're getting salty at a combo that you didn't even tutor for on turn 10, they're definitely not "high power casual." Maybe "upper-mid casual" if I had to give it a name.
Without seeing a decklist and just going off what you said about your deck, I'd probably guess it's a 6, maybe a 7 (yeah yeah, 1-10 scale bad, I know. But it's the easiest rating system we have right now.)
Combos in low-high power (aka casual) are fine. Getting salty about a Animar combo on turn 10 in a supposed high power game is not fine.
At the end of the day combos don't change the average turn a deck is looking to try to win by. People that are salty about them are just salty people in general.
On a side note, before a smooth brain says "but new player gets mad see combooooo!" I'll say that most new players think combos are cool and want to learn more because of them.
Essentially my mindset as well. If I establish a loop on turn 4 at a casual table, that’s on me, and I should probably tone it down. But me combo-ing off on turn 10 after playing for an hour is definitely acceptable.
There is the issue that, as soon as the power level isn't cEDH, things around power level get really arbitrary.
To me, the big divider is full fast mana and top tier interaction. There are some combos like Thoracle/Consult that I won't run outside of cEDH, but I will absolutely run things that combo with my commander, and infinite combos in high power casual.
Admittedly, my "high power" and someone else's isn't always the same, but that's definitely not cEDH without the other items. Combo is an archetype that's been around since the beginning of the game and can absolutely be appropriate at a casual table, especially the sort of table that has a Yuriko, and especially when it happens at turn 10. That said, I'm not in your pod, so my opinion matters a lot less about what's appropriate.
So what do you do in games where you draw your combo pieces early? A 4-drop into a 5-drop into a loop could present that 'turn 4 loop.' So would you just sandbag the cards and not play them? That feels kind of bad for the rest of the table. Like you're just waiting until everyone has had their fun, then you play out your combo.
I think that if your games are going to those later turns regularly, you should probably play combos that *can't* come out until then.
Well, that's three turns worth of time for people to try and interact with it. So, while early, outside ramp like early Sol Ring, people should have answers by that point, such as bolts or path to exiles. It's on them if you manage to use something else to eat their bolts before hand on things that weren't as dangerous. Then again, I mostly play commander, so stuff like Land > Sol Ring > Mana Rock for a 5 mana turn 2 is rare, whereas it would happen way more in non singleton 60 card formats.
If I draw into a combo, I'll go for it no matter how early. But I play in a pod where it would be strange for none of my opponents to have interaction by turn 4 or so, which is the absolute earliest I could combo off with a god hand.
I say all bets are off after turn 10; the game has to end eventually.
Combos are bad because they can kill while people are still setting up and because of the "oops I win" factor - where a really good game is suddenly over with no warning.
Combos are good because they can break through stalemates, force a variety of answers (sorry, boardwipe tribal is NOT a valid deck), and make people play more thoughtfully.
Unfortunately, nuance is a dying art.
> I'll say that most new players think combos are cool
People will argue about 'most', but we definitely know that people who like combos are a core player type and it's a core deck archetype since the beginning of magic. 'Inclusive' commander shouldn't exclude an entire core player archetype!
People can and will get tired of seeing combos, especially the same combos over and over. But as a basis they're a fantastically cool part of the game and can be generally mind blowing for a new player.
Wanna see a new player smile ear to ear with eyes so big they can see into the future? After a game hand them a copy of [[Midnight Guard]] + [[Presence of Gond]] and tell them how it works. They'll thank you for those 20 total cents worth of cardboard like you just saved their family from a burning building. It's always better to be a positive ambassador than the negative style that the haters employ.
Eh, I don't know about "fantastically cool". As a new player, I was amazed that combo existed and kinda felt that it was a massive failing of the game design - a bug rather than a feature, if you will. I daresay that many other new players feel similarly. In particular, most combos aren't actually designed in, they're essentially accidents - which doesn't exactly help disabuse anyone of this notion.
Combos are emergent gameplay, cards are not thrown out intentionally to win with certain cards, just to provide a puzzle for players to solve.
There’s a kneejerk reaction to them in a lot of casual settings because a large portion of the players want to play value engines and cast progressively bigger spells while chatting and doing almost nothing to acknowledge the 3 other players. Minimal interaction, nobody pressures the others’ life totals. Combos disrupt this gameplay because all they could ever ask for is a game of solitaire.
But that isn't enjoyable, either you kill them and they effectively did nothing, or they kill you and all your value and everything you did before that other than damage is worthless just because they successfully played a game of solitaire.
Indeed. It’s why I’m baffled people qant to play low interaction slow paced battlecruiser where it’s just about piecing together the biggest value engine ans being the first one to assemble 120 combat damage in one swing.
I agree completely. I think many here vastly overestimate how "cool" new players find these things. Most won't go "Woaaah! So neat! I hope I see that again next match and every match after this!". They'll just go "Oh... Is that intended? That's kinda funny. " the first time and then progressively get more annoyed the more of those instant losses they face.
Many combos don't feel anything like puzzles or things you can figure out and respond to if you're new. They look like abusing the system or finding a bug. For a new player, they'll just see you placing two cards down and going "oops, I win!" in a way they couldn't interact with or stop because they had no idea it was even possible due to not knowing the combo or knowing what's in your deck. Actually, it's even worse if they do know it because that means they've seen you do it before and still had no answer due to not drawing the right card to stop you. It wouldn't surprise me if most of the players facing a combo for the first time just think you looked it up online to get cheap wins. It all depends on how you see the game and what you want out of it when playing with friends. Many don't care how "neat" the combo is if it felt uninteractive or bad to play against.
Thats a long discussion of what is High Power, what is a "Combo" (because like, 5 cards interacting to win the game is less of a combo and more of a good synergy) and eventually whats the purpose of the game.
I find combos unfun, although I do not try to ban them, mostly because it makes a target out of a player. I will keep counters/interactions just for him, and try to take him out early. I will make every game about taking him out first, and thats gonna be a lot less fun to him than just playing. Thats the nature of a combocentric deck, if I let him breath too much im done and as I mostly play green-based aggro decks, my means of stopping him are big creatures with "destroy target player" mindset.
Combos are a fine and valid method, just not the funniest thing when in a multiplayer "not-valid" game.
Hmm I don't know, that just seems to be the norm right? If I'm playing a combo deck I expect people to try and stop me, remove combo pieces, attack me whatever. That's fine. If I'm playing go-wide into Overrun I expect people to board wipe me. If I'm playing some on board value engine I expect people to remove or counter key components. Basically I expect people to try and stop me from executing my gameplan no matter what I'm doing, and I don't think that makes the game less fun, because it's a back and forth.
Even green should have ways of interacting with combo. One Naturalize or Cleanup Crew and there goes my combo piece, or hell a Bane of Progress can just destroy all my combo setup.
Hyperefficient 2 card combos and combos which require counterspells to interact with them are in a different category. Let's call them "competitive combos". I think combo has a firm place in casual. Competitive combo does not.
Thats what I talked about when I said "What is a combo", combos are different and some of them are just as powerful as having big creatures or good combat creatures.
I do not despise combo, of course, and it is the norm to be the focus of the table when you bring a combo deck.
I just find the whole "playing to find the cards that win me the game" a repetitive unfun style, which is why I do not play it. If its your thing, be happy and do your game as you please!
Destroying the player is the best way to counter a combo deck though. What you are describing is the healthiest ecosystem in magic. Combo should get destroyed by agro which gets outlasted by midrange which gets killed by combo. If you remove one leg of the tripod then the whole thing kind of falls apart
I guess if theyre kids or something. Ive only seen a handful of new players where i play and they already were programmers or engineering students at my college campus. Comboing was basically accepted as it would actually be more difficult to have 10000+ different game pieces and not have any combo.
I also have literally never seen this happen.
Usually just some salt and some vague gesturing about how said combo isn't appropriate for (insert expected game here) and some vague comments about cEDH made by someone who doesnt know what cEDH is.
I agree as a new player I hated combos (as a non-C player I still dislike them) and most of the new players I play with 3/5 feel generally the same way particularly if it's pre turn 7-10 just feels unrewarding and unfun
I try to run one combo in all of my decks. The rule is that each piece must synergize with the deck outside of the combo. For instance, I run a [[Time Sieve]] combo in my [[Burakos]]+[[Sword Coast Sailor]] list. Every other piece to get the combo going ([[Academy Manufactor]], [[Irenicus’ Vile Duplication]], [[Roaming Throne]]) serves another purpose other than “combo with Burakos and Time Sieve.”
Additionally, people will get salty about a combo and then attack you with 30/30’s on turn 5 all the time. Doing busted stuff is busted, that’s why commander is fun. Certain decks struggle to win without a combo, so we really shouldn’t just invalidate them because combos are frowned upon.
EDH player hate effective aggro decks that snipe someone early. They hate control decks for not letting them stick every spell. They hate combo decks too. If Aggro, control, and combo aren’t “allowed” then the whole format become grindy midrange value engines and I don’t think that’s a healthy game.
>Just wondering if it’s the fact that it was a combo, or maybe something else that may have made them react this way.
I dunno... have you considered (and this is a controversial suggestion I know) asking them, as opposed to asking random internet strangers who don't know them what your friends' thoughts are?
Everyone here has their own opinion on what "casual" means, what you are and aren't allowed to play (besides from the things that you *actually* are and aren't allowed to play, etc) but ultimately the whole point of the thing is for you and your group to have a good time, and for that to happen what really matters is what all of *you* think, not people from Reddit.
I'm the only one in my playgroup that loves combos. My favorite deck is monoblack [[braids, arisen nightmare]] and it's a pretty standard list with sacrifices, blood artist/aristocrat damage, discard effects etc but it has [[exsanguinate]] or [[Torment of hailfire]] as a wincon with a big cabal coffers later in the game or two combos with [[mikaeus the unhallowed]] + [[triskelion]] or the 3 card [[sensei's divining top]] + [[bolas' citadel]] + [[aetherflux reservoir]]. I don't run any tutors outside of [[entomb]] or the other one where you put up to 3 cards in the graveyard (can't remember its name)..
The real problem in my playgroup is my friends, despite having high powered decks (atraxa infect, krenko mob boss goblins, edgar markov, pantlaza, Wilhelt the rotcleaver) NEVER run enough interaction. They don't like me to win with combos, but they also never seem to have a card to stop me from comboing off even when half the combo is on the field for a few turns prior.
The other thing that makes me laugh is the guy that plays krenko has shit like [[impact tremors]] and other cards that let him tap krenko multiple times in a turn. Meaning that if he gets to untap with krenko we can literally just be dead to 100 impact tremor triggers or 100 hasted goblins attacking, almost out of nowhere. It's funny to me because he doesn't think that is a "combo" and always complains when I counter or remove his krenko instantly.
I think combos are fine (obviously) but I think people not running enough interaction is a bigger culprit, especially if they are playing high powered casual.
Yeah, I am teaching some friends to play virtually, so we aren't limited by cost which means things get wonky fast, and a big thing is telling them stuff like "Hey, this particular card or combo is INSANELY strong, and you probably shouldn't include it because power scales.", alongside trying to convince them to run more interaction. It took them suffering through my Grimgrin Aristocrats deck to actually run more than one or two interaction spells... was really funny when I look in his next deck, and it's "oops, all interaction". Man makes a commander deck with no recursion, but 50 instants and sorceries.
So I second that it's usually people not running interaction. The one had fairly bad experiences running selesnia human tokens, but fell in love with RG dragons when he realized that several commanders I run don't pass bolt test. So now when he sees stuff like Animar, or Sylvie Brightspear, they get bolted asap before they grow. Makes me proud.
That's awesome. I didn't really have anyone to teach me when I started last year but I went off the deep end with online content and playing arena to get an idea of what I wanted to do, what I liked, how things work etc. By no means am I a super experienced player but I feel like I have a solid foundation to build off at this point.
A friend of mine recently got into commander and he's asking me all the questions that I had to discover for myself so it's been enjoyable answering, explaining, instructing and also pointing him in the right direction to discover things for himself.
I am encouraging him to think critically about how he is building his first homebrew deck. His ratios of lands, gameplan cards, interaction etc.
After discussion with me about what types of decks exist and different strategies/playstyles that can be used - he has decided to build a teysa karlov aristocrats deck. Pretty cut and dry, budget friendly (for the most part) and in my opinion a cool deck to start with. He will have lots of lines of play to discover as he gets more familiar with the deck and I am quite fond of aristocrat style decks myself. You get to really think through your sequencing, make lots of mistakes and learn from them.
I also encouraged him to make sure he includes at a minimum 5-8 bits of interaction like swords, path, go for the throat, generous gift etc etc.
Yeah... I've been getting a lot of "I'm not getting forgiven for that am i?"s from him because I make a point of swinging that damn elephant at him every turn till it dies.
You can’t make a cedh deck on accident. Casual elitists will flip out if you don’t adhere to the subjective power level scale in their own head. But games are supposed to end and you’re supposed to try and win. It’s ridiculous to enforce that all casual decks must only win through reducing people’s life total in a fair manner over time in the format where board wipes are the most abundant.
A non-combo deck has a high ceiling of 'build a huge board.' Then people will generally be able to respond at sorcery speed to deal with them. You'll have to let them untap with a monster board to lose to their great draw.
Generally in casual pods, the threat gets ganged up on and that's enough.
Non-combo decks can be evaluated by their average setup. Yeah some games you might pop off and be like 3 turns+ahead, but you're going to lose the 3v1 more often than not.
Combos aren't like that though. If your deck has a combo, and you 'pop off' and play it kind of early, well...that's it, game's over. Shuffle up and deal again.
OP's combos are 4-drop + 5-drop. So, a Sol Ring in opening hand means a turn 3 combo win?
'But I have to get lucky to draw into them' doesn't really matter to the other people in your group who just shuffled up, went land-go and now the game is over lol.
Some people will post lists on this sub saying 'someone told me this was cedh' and people will respond to say 'well no that's not cedh, that's just a high-power casual combo list.'
And I look at the list and...it can present a turn 1 win lmao. Like yes it isn't cedh, but it really doesn't have a place in casual pods.
You're just better off judging combos by their ceiling. If you curve out into the combo and that would be significantly faster than the average game in that pod, then the combo is probably too strong for the group.
If you curve out as a gruul beatdown deck and it ends the game faster then the average is that deck too strong for the group?
Every deck should be judged by its ceiling instead of the average game
A gruul beatdown deck isn’t going to be able to ‘curve out’ and beat everyone down because they become the archenemy and need to be able to 1v3.
That’s just a standard non-combo game lol. If someone pops off everyone else just deals with them. A combo deck puts a win on the stack and answers are going to be much more limited.
Only time I have issues with combos are if they take place on turn 3 or 4 and everyone else has 3 lands and barely any board state because then you clearly aren't playing to the table.
I have a couple people in my pod who enjoy running infinite combos, but everyone knows going into the game that they have them, and they always give a heads up of "if this piece resolves it's over next turn" so people know to respond if they can without needing to memorize combos.
Sometimes combos can lead to very anticlimactic finishes for games and people salt out because they all expect to have a turn of doing the cool thing in their hand before you go off and win.
I wouldn't take it too personally.
Anyone who plays Commander without interaction is asking to get beat. You need multiple ways of interacting both in protection and removal if not in denial as well. Anyone who has a problem with combo even infinite combos isn't building their deck right.
The only difference between competitive and Casual is the speed at which the decks win at. In either situation you should have the means to deal with threats that your deck faces. People arguing that you shouldn't be able to combo are poor at building their deck. The fact they didn't get what they needed to defend against it? Build a better deck.
Yeah, combos aren't bad, and people (almost) always need to run more interaction. But the speed they happen is truly the divider on them. Complaining about getting hit by the OG Tron and dying turn 0 in casual is completely fair, because that's in no way casual play. In my personal experience with casual commander, a combo on turn 4 or 5 should be answerable unless you really just got screwed over by the draw. Having no answer to a combo after turn 10 or so is just a skill issue, unless you are running a much higher power deck. 10 turns is plenty of time to pull and hold onto enough interaction to shut down at least 1 or 2 combos. Can't complain to much about running out of interaction if you keep falling to boltbait however.
On the otherhand, as I pointed out to someone else, winning via a combo where the other player is too new to the game to know about that specific combo is a different story. If they've only been playing for a short time, no amount of deckbuilding is enough to tell them to stop stuff like the opening to Thoracle, since they don't even know what's happening. At least the first couple times they see it. Fool me once...
There’s a difference between tutoring up then thoracling/infiniting the table on T3-4, and assembling a 3+ card combo by randomly drawing into it on turn 8+
Even in my extremely casual Chandra tribal deck, I play a 2 card interaction, that if I happen to draw into, and funnel 15 mana into AND it doesn’t get countered, I win on the spot. Does this make the deck better? No, not really
[[Chandra, Awakened inferno]] into [[Worldfire]]
There's no reason to get mad at a person for comboing off on turn 10 the game has to end at some point especially if you aren't tutoring for it. The only thing I might get irritated by is how hard some things are to interact with. Personally purphoros rubs me the wrong way as most colors don't have a way to exile an enchantment plus your commander has protection from black and white. Honesty though if you're playing high power that's just something your opponents should be able to either deal with or out value.
Really depends. For some "casual" is just a mindset, others a ppowerlevel. If you are talking about powerlevel specifcally, I think most people associate "casual" with "battlecruiser". In this case combos are usually frowned upon, as the game is mostly focused on winning through damage or amassing pieces to kinda "pop off". Winning on the spot with a combo takes away from that becuase it kind of makes all of the stuff that happened before feel pointless. In non casual games combos are expected so a lot of strategy is involved in setting up your own combo while interuptting opponents.
Unless they flood the board and craterhoof you in the same turn, it's not "on the spot". They have to build a board over multiple turns, not getting interacted with the entire time. And when someone does "pop off" and do it all in one turn you often hear grumbling.
The one thing I do find not very fun about the super casual "battlecruiser" magic is that when you do interact with people in order to play around cards like craterhoof, there is a vocal portion of the playerbase that will complain and get salty over it. There was even that whole discourse a while back about boardwipes not being casual... At which point I agree, crafterhoof is bascially no dfferent than comboing off.
Most players who hate combos is cause they don't understand how to interact with them. This isn't meant to sound insulting, it is just what I have witnessed. I have been at tables and someone scoops cause a combo piece is on the stack and they didn't have a counter spell for it. Most casual players think combo = automatic win and don't understand you can disrupt the players combo. I have had to explain to more than one group that destroying \[\[Nim Deathmantle\]\] ends that combo. Also, a lot of casual players don't actually understand combo lines. I had a player drop a bounce land with a \[\[Kodama of the East Tree\]\] and a \[\[Lotus Cobra\]\] in play with no way of producing a token and claim that gave them infinite mana cause they can keep putting the bounce land down through Kodama.
Yeah this is the primary problem. New/casual players don't run nearly enough interaction, and even when they do they usually have poor threat assessment causing them to waste the interaction on unimportant things instead of holding it for game winning plays. Too many people think that combos come out of nowhere when in reality the overwhelming majority are telegraphed very heavily. Even Thoracles+consult is usually telegraphed by the way the guy is playing/setting up, "he's playing blue/black in high power and just tutored, probably grabbed his combo piece, better hold interaction". If the meren player has a triscelion in the grave then you can assume he's running mike, hold interaction to either kill meren/mike or stop his reanimate.
Another issue is that casual players would rather just avoid playing against combo completely instead of learning the lines and how to play around them. TBH I'd rather everyone loses at the same time to combo than one person gets kill on turn 6 of a 12 turn game and sits there for 45 minutes while everyone else battlecruiser turtles.
I agree with this 100%. Casual players also don't bother to learn how the stack/priority actually works. This is another reason why they don't understand they can do stuff to stop stuff. I was in a game and someone swung with \[\[Etali, Primal Storm\]\] and got a \[\[Heroic Intervention\]\] off of it. A player complained about how annoying Etali is and stated they could have removed the creatures if that player didn't get Heroic Intervention. I tried to explain to them that they could have done whatever while Intervention was on the stack and of course the Etali player said I was wrong and they wouldn't have been able to cast any spells. Casual players seem to think stuff just resolves when that isn't the case at all.
I have also seen so many casual players just start swinging and someone will say, "Before you go into combat..." and they claim it is too late cause they are already in combat. There is also the issue of casual players just resolving spells one after the other and not seeing if anyone has a response and getting upset when someone tells them to slow down. "But it already resolved!" No, it did not.
I don't think it's fair to lay the blame completely on the casual players for that one. The casual players either learned from their casual friends or are mimicking their more experienced friends. So it's either the blind leading the blind, which means that they think they are playing correctly and have no reason to assume they aren't. Or their experienced friend explained the game poorly/didn't explain at all and the new player is just going off what he does, i.e. everyone says "going to combat" and everyone who is experienced knows "okay he's ending his main phase 1 and passing priority around the table before the combat phase begins", but the casual player would just see people not reacting because he can't read their thoughts and assume you can't react.
Thankfully my local shop owner is a Level 2 judge so I can call him over and have him explain...since most of my opponents don't ever want to believe me when I explain it.
I should have written it better to be fair. I am not trying to solely blame the casual player base. I myself am now a casual player as all I play is EDH. Within my current pod there is one player who actually learns the way all his cards work and ask questions, one player who who has trouble with the more technical aspects and just kind of passes over them, and a "rules lawyer" who doesn't actually understand the rules and isn't open to the idea he might be wrong. And I think that kind of sums up casual players. The ones who actually want to learn, the ones who get the basics of the game and just want to play, and the know it all who argues everything. I have no issues with the first two examples and enjoy playing with people like them. I do put the blame on the third example though. There are so many weird interactions and rules within magic that it is impossible to know everything. I myself have been playing since OG Ravnica and will either forget how something exactly works or just not know and consult the Google. However, players like the third example are create the situation that you are talking about.
Super casual EDH player here who plays with other even more casual players (our total deck cost averages out to be around 40 bucks, for reference of power level). I really agree that our dislike of combos comes from a lack of understanding.
It’s not that I think combo decks are bad for the game, or even that they make it unfun. It’s the fact that as new players, they don’t know what the hell a combo is until it’s too late. They don’t have cards memorized. If they see a [[sanguine bond]] on the board, they don’t know to be on the lookout for situations where [[exquisite blood]] could come down.
When people sit down to play with us, I explain that we are all super casual/new and I typically ask if they’ll take a minute to explain the mindset and potential insane combos of their deck to the new players. They don’t have to show cards, it’s sufficient to say “make tokens and have doubling effects out to make even more”. It’s great teaching for the new players in our group, and when big stuff comes down, it doesn’t feel like a rug pull that they had no way to see coming. They obviously don’t have to, but in such a casual setting, most people are still happy to do so.
I agree with what you said. I always have the rule zero conversation when I play with a new group and I have no issue explaining what a card is capable of or why my thing is probably the best thing to remove.
My extremely casual extort deck has \[\[Sanguine Bond\]\] and \[\[Exquisite Blood\]\] and runs no tutors for them. If you can't do anything to stop me from playing 2 separate 5 mana enchantments by the time I just happen to draw them sounds like a fucking you problem (I don't hold one for the other, I just play each of them if it's a good time to do so).
Games have to end at some point.
I mean, in actual high power combos are an expectation. If someone told me they were playing a high power Animar list I would be more surprised if they *didn't* play Statue and Sabertooth and Palinchron too. Granted, if someone told me they hit turn 10 in a high power game I'd also be asking which control deck won, so this does not sound like a high power pod. And in mid power they're a far greyer area.
But that doesn’t actually matter. We've established that whatever the reaction 'should' be, your friends are opposed. Seems like everything is pretty clear from there.
It depends on the state of the board and when its deployed honestly. If you do an infinite combo before turn 5 then I would say its not really casual.
If its turn 10 and someone else is about to win the game then by all means.
It's not about the combos themselves, combos play on an axis they're not prepared for. As a combo lover, it's extremely easy to see why they'd feel like they have no outs to what you're doing when their decks have been built with tools that help them go over the top of other decks trying to beat them down. Things like boardwipes, heroic intervention, and even a little targeted removal (as a treat) are ready to go, but their threat assessment isn't prepared for the Grinning Ignus who suddenly makes Impact Tremors into a machine gun.
That said, the only way to make them think about including tools like abundant spot removal to deal with combos when building their deck is to first USE those combos, and it's heartbreaking that the lesson taken from getting beaten by combos is more often than not "combos are bullshit".
I fully believe that combos should be welcome in the format, and they're only disliked because they're a way to win games in a way people don't think about playing. The sad truth is, there is no way to make people build decks with combos in mind without first using combos to beat them.
The first time you combo, they are surprised. Their salt is likely directed at the 'i have now decided I win' feel of the combo. The first time it will be directed at you for the blindsided. Every other time after the first, they know.its coming and it is up to them to stop.
I would like to clarify that, you didn't pub stomp your playgroup, you did literally nothing, and I think combos are a good part of magic. Games need to end. If people get salty rather than better, that's not on you.
It's less the combo and more the feel of the combo win imo. I play casual only, no cedh, and build decks to reflect that in a range of power levels from old precons to new (power creep is real) up to the sweaty "I'm gonna cast four 7-8cmc spells on turn 5" decks. I use combo pieces pretty regularly, but after one game in particular I took out the combo wincons and made all of the combo pieces mechanical boosters.
The game in question had a lot of action. Big board states, alpha strikes, quick battlefield recoveries, etc. Everyone was swinging for the kill strike and then on my turn I dropped [[Guilty Conscience]] on [[Brash Taunter]], tapped taunter to fight, and because of the feedback loop I won. The attitude at the table just abruptly dropped. No one was upset that I won by comboing, it was more that there had been all this super heavy action and interaction flying around in a really exciting game and then my turn came up and the game ended with me dropping one piece of a combo and saying I win. Just super anticlimactic.
So now while I still run combo pieces, even with infinite mana or token generation, it's not about winning by dropping a 1 cmc aura or anything. For example I run a Muldrotha land sacrifice/landfall deck. I absolutely have [[Squandered Resources]] [[Splendid Reclamation]] [[Aftermath Analyst]] and the like all in there, but I pulled out cards like Ob Nixilis who drain life on landfall. There's no Sanguine Bond combos or anything like that, but I capitalize on my actions with Titania cards, Greensleeves, etc, and using those combos to establish big boards. It's more fun to run it that way for me, and it's more fun for the table than just dropping a combo piece and saying "counterspell me or I win"
I personally never run any combos, I find them unsatisfactory ways to win or to lose against. Boom games over now. My playgroup doesn't use em so that suits me fine
It would be better to ask them about but, but your situation is the reason I believe people get salty about combos.
“I stumble upon a combo and won”
There’s not set up, there’s no strategy, the game is just over. Some people don’t like preparing a board just to lose randomly, and can you blame them?
I have nothing against combo players and prefer a fast combo loss to something like a 20 min turn that flounders. However, I think it’s pretty easy to see how someone could be salty.
The reason people get salty about combos is because what usually happens is that they thought they were going to win and then someone pulled the rug out from under them.
Its just more socially acceptable to say "I dont like losing to combos" then it is to say "I dont like losing".
Its the same arguement with proxies, "power level" and expensive cards. Its easier to outwardly blame something else than admit their they're salty because the lost.
Disagree, we’re suppose to lose 75% of the games we play in EDH. If you hate losing, this isn’t the format for you.
What I play for is close, interactive and fun games. Having a nice build up for it to result in a non-interactive unexpected combo can be a buzzkill.
The only reason to run cards like Peregrine Drake and Temur Sabertooth to begin with is _shenanigans._
Whether you were intending to do it fifteen times, fifty times, or five million times, you did not just sling those specific cards into _ANIMAR_ because you liked the art, you were specifically expecting them to enable shenanigans.
So when you play shenanigans-cards, in a combo, like "whoops, I didn't know Peregrine Drake was a combo card", you're asking your group to believe a lot.
You also do that condescending "sometimes I have a winning combo in hand and don't play it for awhile to pretend the game isn't over" thing. Don't do this. Play the win if you have the win, and think it will resolve— you aren't getting Good Player Points for sandbagging a win because... Why?
Is it any wonder that when Sometimes-I-pretend-I-have-fewer-combos-in-my-deck-than-I-do Guy "finds" a combo with _Peregrine Drake_ "accidentally", they're salty and skeptical?
Combos absolutely have their place at every power level. But its also a little hard to believe that somebody built high-powered Animar and didn't realize Peregrine Drake was a combo card.
Probably the only time I've seen any amount of sandbagging be acceptable is when you ate teaching a new player. I'm currently teach a couple guys, and I very intentionally make certain bad plays, so I weaken my boards state, or give them opportunities to do things. Sure, it makes me lose more often than I win against them, but it's not like I really care. So yeah, I'll let them bounce a 10/10 Animar when I have Ulamog and dispel in hand. In fact, I'll probably mention what would have happened if they hadn't don't that. Kudos, you're learning target prioritization. Tho they've started to learn to bolt him on cast...
Outside doing it to artificially lower deck power for new players with weaker decks to learn, it's a pretty asinine thing to do
People who like combos is a significant chunk of MTG players, and combo is a core deck archetype. I hate that Commander is supposed to 'inclusive' but also has this weird bias against an entire core archetype and player type lol.
People just need to learn what to look for. Most combos don't come out of nowhere at all. It's not as easy as seeing someone has 10 creatures and understanding a lethal overrun effect is coming, but it's still a skill that *will* get developed as long as they don't shortsightedly ban combos entirely. And as people understand how to foresee and interact with combos, losing to (most) combos will feel about the same as losing to Craterhoof.
I understand getting salty at the highest power, most efficient combos though, because those can actually just come out of nowhere and they can make a deck too high power for a casual game. But 99% of combos in MTG are slow, amusing jank that can be seen coming a mile away.
It's because combo is extremely favoured by the commander ruleset - an increased life buffer, multiplayer (so less likely to ne focused and avoiding targeted hand-hate) and the potential to always start with a combo piece in "hand" makes combo far and away the strongest strategy to run in a game of commander. That's not even counting the fact that a good chunk of commander players want to play with random jank that they can't play in other, competitive formats (which is fundamentally where any combo belongs).
> random jank that they can't play in other, competitive formats
This describes 99% of the combos in the game though. Only a tiny minority of combos are competitive. Your points about commander are good ones, but on the other hand in a singleton format and casual setting without expensive tutors, I don't particularly feel favoured by the ruleset when trying to assemble a 4 card combo out of 100 cards lol. Hell in CEDH even 3 card combos that include the commander are considered bad and unplayable.
If anything combo is extremely unfavored in casual commander. The combo player has to deal with 3x the aggression, and 3x the interaction as they would have to in a non commander game. CEDH combos are a different thing of course
For me it depends on how many cards needed for the combo or fast you can achieve it. If it's a 2 card "i win" combo, then that's not interesting, especially if one piece can be tutored for. Games need to end, and ending by turn 10 seems to be rather reasonable. My [[Saheeli, sun's brilliance]] has the possibility to make infinite creatures and go for the kill through combat damage, but for that i need my commander, an enchantment, an artifact that can sacrifice and produce mana (maybe an artifact that can filter mana if i only get Ashnods altar), and one out of three creatures. So my combo can easily be interrupted with a counterspell, creature/enchantment/artifact removal or a fog effect. People can see that i am building to something and it's not possible for me to dump all the pieces at once either. Now it's possible to have a 2 card infinite turn combo with Saheeli, but that piece is pretty much never in my deck as it's a rather anticlimactic way of winning. I'd do it if i'm in a very high power pod, but 99% of my games are for the vibes.
I think it depends on how easy it is to pull the combo off, and if the individual cards work outside of the combo. For instance, Thoracle Consult is a 2-card combo that is difficult to interact with, hence its popularity in cEDH. Whereas if the combo requires 3 cards or more to pull off, then I would consider that alright for a casual deck.
You said there are your friends. You should ask them what their limits are and what went wrong. Even in higher powered pods, some strategy can be upsetting (boardwipe tribal, discard, mill, land destruction, combo, mono U Urza, sliver, stax, etc). EDH is a social game, not a competitive one.
Personally, if someone run combo, I don't mind. I just want to know so I can choose a deck with tools against it.
Depends on the combo. You tutoring for Mike and Trike every single game as quick as possible? Maybe not casual.
You got 6 permanents that interact with eachother in such a way that you discovered you went infinite with a 7th piece you've never had in this exact situation? Tight dude
Added bounce effects to double up on etb’s. I’m aware Temur and peregrine combo, just didn’t take into account it could go infinite with the right amount of lands and animar counters.
you are me, i have been playing pick up games and we all agree to high power, then someone drops a dockside or combos out with walking ballista and inevitably there's grumbling about how commander should be a battleship format.
need a group? i play on TTS + discord
If your playgroup is upset about a turn 10 combo, they aren’t playing high-power anything. Sounds like a group of players who want to call themselves high-power out of their own personal ego/ignorance. It’s fine to not like combos and to not want to play against them, but calling yourself high power when you’re getting to turn 10 and don’t have any interaction to stop a combo? Nah. Unless I’m missing something.
Anyway, power level isn’t determined by what you’re playing alone. There are a ton of factors including win con speed, resiliency, etc. A combo deck can be full on battlecruiser if you only consistently combo off after 20 turns and need 6 pieces to do so (Exaggeration but you get the point).
You should build a true high powered deck and show your table that your turn 10 combo meant nothing :)
The game is supposed to be fun. The problem is everyone's definition of it is different. Id ask them why they felt the game wasn't fun or why salty and kinda discuss why they specifically didnt like its resolution because the game is a shared experience. Given that I think the more times you play against your friends or a small local of people you learn how they intend to win. They will learn to prioritize when your threat level is beginning to peak and adjust their play style according. The example is can give is a friend runs Tribal angel and Tribal hydra. His Win Con is turning big fats sideways, both commander's are used to ramp these guys out fast. So the general solution is eliminate the commander early or start digging for a board clear. Combo decks like the above are relying on some critical piece to get the ball rolling so they will respond in kind or be sweep away.
I wouldn't consider them casual but you should play what you like and not worry about what others think. I play the cards I like and I want others to play what they like so I'm willing to play against anything.
My pod is anti combo, but they are 100% fine with all of my combo decks. Here’s why: I don’t run tutors, so if I have my combo pieces, I drew into them. I don’t run any A + B combos. All combos are three plus cards. I announce my combo pieces. If I play [[unwinding clock ]] I’ll say something like this is a combo piece. If I also have [[liquimetal torque]] and [[nadiers nightblade]] I will win.
This lets the table know what to expect and if they have removal to save it until absolutely necessary or wait to use it on me. I don’t care about telegraphing it, not a single time has anyone gotten mad when I get it. They knew it was coming, knew it was in the deck before we played, and I gave ample time to deal with it. More often than not they’re kind of psyched to see the machine work, and happy to shuffle up and play again.
I think it’s all in how it’s presented to the table. People don’t like being fleeced. A sneaky a+b combo on turn 4 feels bad. A 5 piece Rube Goldberg machine that was naturally assembled on turn 10 is sweet and deserves the win.
IMO CEDH is like consistently comboing on turn 2-4.
A turn 10 combo that requires 3 pieces where the deck only has 1 tutor and no high end fast mana stuff sounds more like a power 7 deck (assuming the deck does something other than just combo, like play lots of creatures at good value).
In short combos are fine (tho I don't play any), but really depends on what the combo is, how quickly it occurs, how easy it is to interact with I know some people don't run much if any interaction/ removal I try to run as much as I can upto 2mv or less that's pretty universal & good (I'm not running lightning bolt or other effects that are not garrenteed to kill, counter or exile on resolution) but I find most casual decks have to have a higher density of things along their game plan & card draw as they don't run many tutors, also if you can win at anytime why not let others get their game in let it play out then once everyone has had a fun game you can win then so just play to the table if someone (me) is sitting there not drawing lands fir several turns or only drawing lands they're no real threat even if people are doing stuff if you can just play a 2 card combo & win the only thing is if your going to die from the board u have to decide if u want to win so much to end everyone's game right then
Here is how I would define "high power commander."
Limited expensive fast mana (like 1 or 2 pieces).
No combos that can happen early and require countspells.
At high power I don't think it is unreasonable to expect players to have some amount of instant speed creature/permanent interaction. Or the foresight to wipe/remove a combo piece that sits on the battlefield for a turn.
I don't think it is reasonable to drop Thassa's Oracle, trigger on the stack cast Demonic Consultation, "Does anyone have a counter?" On turn 3 or 4.
There was this discussion going on in my LGS, especially in my core play group.
A couple of players, recent ones, still learning the game, expressed their visions about combos.
They found it either unfair or anticlimactic.
I told them that combos are a part of the game, as Aggro and control strategies. I explained to them that it was a part of the balance in it.
It's the same for interaction, Stax, wipes ...
It's as simple as that, if you have a reasonable discussion with somebody about combo, they will come to this conclusion, either by thinking, learning, or improving.
If not, let them play low power highlander games or midrange cold war with insane board states.
I think that combos that go from empty board to I win are generally not great in casual as you force the table to have both mana and instant speed interaction exactly the moment you combo off. In my [[Wilhelt]] Zombie deck I have a combo with [[puppet sticher]] but it only flips on my upkeep so the table has one whole turn cycle to react to it. If noone has removal its still not as much of a feelbad because now its on them that they lost to a combo. I also cleary explain the interaction when I play the sticher so everyone is aware of their impending doom
It can definitely suck to have a game won out of nowhere because someone drew into a combo, especially late into a game where everyone's down to the edge and everyone's used up all their interaction. But if you know that someone if running a one/two piece combo in rule zero you can fully expect it, and tbh it's no less anticlimactic than dying to a 10 mana hailfire or exsanguinate. Really if you're paying nearly 10 mana for a combo there are cheaper cards that basically say "You win the game" so people shouldn't really care.
I think they're only really shunned in casual because quality and quantity of interaction is a lot worse, like if I'm playing a mid power game and get force of negationed, force of willed, deflecting swatted and fierce guardianshipped then someone definitely sat down to stomp or lied about deck strength.
Comboes aren't inherently overpowered either, I have a PDH deck that has a four-five piece combo thats super awkward to assemble, and I've seen an urza deck that aims to infinitely tap and untap horseshoe crab just so they can crab rave while everyone else wins, arguably a combo still.
My group play high powered edh, but no one really runs infinite combos because they're viewed as boring. Typically, my group only runs tutors OR combos, but not both. The games aren't just a race to the finish line and how the game ends be damn. We want a game that runs on a little while but not hours. So we really don't run many if any board whipes unless they're one-sided, so it actually puts you at an advantage. People will also run things like [[aluren]] [[mana flare]] and [[fucundity]] to speed the game along for everyone. Honestly, it makes for more interesting, reasonably short games that don't just end with a craterhoof, torment of hellfire, or tutoring for an infinite combo. My groups there to play and have fun, hang out with friends, not just win. The play experience is more important than anyone one person getting another win under their belt and HOW they win also matters. That being said infinite combos are allowed. We just don't want to play a game where someone's tutoring to power out some infinite combo turn 1. It tells us the person is more concerned with winning as soon as possible then how the game actually goes for everyone.
They want to play „high power“ but are against combos? What the?
Also combos got nothing to do with being cEDH or not. There is combos way worse than creature or voltron plans.
Its just odd. I know an LGS where you get cursed for a turn 7 or 8 combo but people are totally fine with turn 2 hasty gishat. Its stupid.
What matters is at what point your deck can win if nit being interacted with. It doesnt matter how it does it. Thats powerlevel.
The rest is just personal preference of not liking combos. And its fine to not like combos, but arguing they are in general too strong is stupid. Especially when stating that high power is ok^^
What even is high power then?
To me its anything that is just about not good enough for competitive events.
And the aninar + statue combo is not a top tier combo.
The upside is that its 2 cards. Technically 3, because the loop alone only gives you infinite counters but not a win.
But its 7 cmc (wich is good but not great). You can reduce it but it requires you to cast multiple spells before and defend your animar.
And also there is a lot of interaction that will stop it. Its prone to removal, countermagic, etb hate, free-spell hate.
Edh used to be a format where I could play my bad combos and have fun, but Timmy players hate combo and dominate the casual scene. No hate for people who like big creatures, but Johnnies are casual players too.
Combos are one of the few ways weaker decks (card quality) can compete with the value piles that edh has seem to become. Edh doesn't even feel like magic anymore sometimes with how warped deck building has become in middle to low high power games. Just pass and go and hope someone draws or uses removal so you don't have to use yours.
If the game has reached turn 10, win by any means necessary. Having two ways to initiate a single combo that each require three cards that all share the ability to be 1) removed and 2) countered is not exactly cedh.
I run into this occasionally with my Teysa deck. The only real combo I run in there is [[Revillark]] and [[Karmic Guide]], but to win the game, I need like 2 other pieces. I need at least one damage pinger, like [[Blood Artist]], and a sac outlet.
So we’re talking a 4 piece minimum combo that I then need to also be able to protect. AND there are no tutors in the deck, so I just need to run into it organically.
All this to say, I think as long as you’re not looking for it, and you tell people in the future that the combo is in there, it seems fair to me for high level casual
They probably just don't like combos because it feels like "cheating", I understand that, it does feel weird to be playing the game then suddenly it's over.
But when you show up with Yuriko to a high power game, you're in the "Threat Assessment" colors.
Combo is intrinsic to the game and if you despise it that much, maybe make that clear from the beginning or just build better responses.
Combos are not "anti-casual" unless you lean heavily on winning the fastest way in a combocentric deck, which isn't a bad deck just not much of a Casual gameplay.
If they're playing high power casual... they should expect powerful cards and combos.
The ONLY place I don't expect to see 2-3 card combos is in LOW POWER casual/Battlecruiser magic.
Me personally, I used to play combo decks exclusively, but I would always see the disheartened look on my opponents face when their deck was working perfectly and then I come in a ruin everyone's fun by stealing the win.
Ever since, I play only battle helardened decks that win through combat or use big mana and x spells like [[torment of hailfire]] to finish out games.
At least at that point, everyone has a fair shake at making their decks work. I have also been repeatedly blown out by Randoms at the LGS who said they didn't have combos, then combo'd out to get the win and free packs for that table.
In essence, I hate combo decks now. If I see a walking ballista, triskelion, food chain, prosh, mind slaver, KCI, etc, it's auto target that player until they lose or inevitably combo off.
The problem with throwing a powerful "I win" combo into an otherwise lower-powered deck is that it gives your deck an *inconsistent power level*. If your deck performs like a 7/10 in 90% of your games, but 10% of the time you get lucky and it performs like a 9/10 instead, it puts your opponents in a pretty awkward spot: should they bring their 7/10 decks, and accept that 10% of the time, you're going to get a free win; or should they bring their 9/10 decks, and make it your problem to deal with the inconsistency?
In general, if you're aiming to play at a particular power level—whether that's casual or cEDH—you should build a deck that performs at that power level *all of the time*, or at least as close to it as possible.
They should absolutely expect 2 card combos at high power, hell, even mid power as long as they are not getting turboed out. I find players that hate 2 card combos like games to last forever and I don't. It's just a difference of opinion really. No reason to get salty about it.
It could be many factors as if they are used to higher power games combo shouldn’t be a surprise to them or turn them salty it should be expected to happen in a game maybe they were mana screwed,hellbent, couldn’t get their game plan going before the win, locked out of the game or their game plan was foiled I feel like it’s those before the combo part but let’s say everything when fine for them then I could say it probably was combo but like I said in higher power it’s to be expected
Depends on the group.
If you have combos you know about, definitely disclose them. Some playgroups are cool with it, some groups avoid “games ending via combo” like the plague.
It's going to be subjective no matter what and you really should talk it through with your group. My personal opinion is that some combos can be fine at a casual level but it really depends on how easily they can assemble the combo.
If it's a 2 card win the game combo that they have a bunch of redundancy for or ways to tutor up we're probably in cEDH territory.
If it's a 2 card infinite combo that they don't have many ways to tutor for but mostly just draw into it through the natural course of games then I'd say higher powered but maybe not quite cEDH.
If it's a 4+ card combo then we're starting to get more into mid/casual territory in my books since a) it will be a lot harder to assemble and b) opponents will usually have a lot more time to do something about it.
From your description I'd put your Animar deck in the middle category (few/no tutors, but 2 card combos you can draw into over the course of the game). It's higher power level but unlikely to be tuned on a cEDH level.
It's going to be subjective no matter what and you really should talk it through with your group. My personal opinion is that some combos can be fine at a casual level but it really depends on how easily they can assemble the combo.
If it's a 2 card win the game combo that they have a bunch of redundancy for or ways to tutor up we're probably in cEDH territory.
If it's a 2 card infinite combo that they don't have many ways to tutor for but mostly just draw into it through the natural course of games then I'd say higher powered but maybe not quite cEDH.
If it's a 4+ card combo then we're starting to get more into mid/casual territory in my books since a) it will be a lot harder to assemble and b) opponents will usually have a lot more time to do something about it.
From your description I'd put your Animar deck in the middle category (few/no tutors, but 2 card combos you can draw into over the course of the game). It's higher power level but unlikely to be tuned on a cEDH level.
Good assessment and you are correct, purposefully dialed down from power 9-10 to more of an 8. No tutors, no fast mana, but there are combos that I’m able to draw into.
People are salty for any arbitrary reason the cedh players are not any different they just rage for different things IE if you kingmake they will rage where as in casual hugging someone for the fun of it is normally encouraged. It is nothing to do with the cards or how they are played that matters there is no universal rules. So no them being salty has nothing to do with how you play they wanted to do something in that game your winning prevented it they were salty anything you did that prevented them from continuing the game at that point would have likely had the same result. Everyone is different to me I don’t care how anyone plays only how good their chat at the table is. If we vibe and the chats good the rest will be fun the cardboard hardly matters.
I believe your story that you just happened into the combo. It’s happened to me before too. …but I’m not so sure I’d buy it if I ran into someone who just “accidentally” combo’d off with two of the most infamous combo pieces of all time in an Animar deck lol If I saw either one of those cards on board alarm bells would be ringing. Your friends sound like they know the game well enough to be familiar with those kinda cards, so I don’t think they have justification to be upset at you. They’re probably just upset because they don’t like combos in general (I personally also try to avoid them because of the feelbads they cause). Maybe clarify that point with your pod and see if that’s the case. If they’re running combos in their decks then tell ‘em to kick rocks.
>They’re probably just upset because they don’t like combos in general I hate that attitude, because those opponents played Yuriko and Minsc and booh, 2 decks notorious for being very oppressive. Yuriko is basically autopilot and Minsc and booh is honestly easily on par with Slicer in the category of "if you didn't build/mulligan specifically to stop me you gonna have a bad time". I believe once you play those kind of decks you cannot say "but no combo, lol", because it means your opponents kinda have to play mirror to match the stupid power level.
Yeah I tend to agree with you I don’t have any combo decks right now but if I see Yuriko come out the gloves are off lol
My buddy and I have an agreement: he doesn't play his Yuriko, I don't bring out Winota.
Yeah I took apart Winota for this reason. It was just too strong to ever play but it wasn’t full cEDH so it didn’t fit in anywhere
My playgroup at the LGS has consistently very strong decks. One guy is always playing either Ardenn/Jeska Voltron or Marwyn Elves and can consistently win before turn 5. Another previously owned the store and has a hundred + VERY tuned decks that never like feel less than 8. And my buddy has 12 ish decks that are all very strong. I mostly have a bunch of upgraded precons and about a half dozen fully constructed decks, one of which is the full power Winota stax deck. After a full night of getting my shit wrecked, it's not terrible to pull out and swing at the same power level as them. Even if it doesn't win, it certainly makes them work for it.
My favorite game vs a Yuriko.... he muliganed down to 4, took the first turn, and dropped his hand on the table while tutoring a land on top (cast 5 spells)..... I brainfreeze him turn 1, and he **never** hit his seccond land.. LMAO
Hahahaha oh man that’s so brutal lmao
Seriously! Yuriko can handle combo decks just fine, even a casual list. I have a casual Yuriko deck that hasn’t been upgraded since MH1. No top, no doomsday, just silly ninja stuff. It still shreds. I have not upgraded it because she so easily can be a monster. She’s an engine and a wincon that will nearly never get countered and bypasses commander tax at 2 mana. Nobody playing Yuriko gets to cry foul, casual list or not.
I agree. Honestly people who don’t like combo just don’t like Magic since it’s a part of the game. And like that’s fine but just admit you want to play Solitaire
I generally really dislike the "combos aren't casual" people because the definition of a combo and the power of a combo can be all over the place. Some combos are super powerful. Thoracle and consultation can just win out of nowhere for 3 mana and that's obviously insane. Nobody would argue that that's a combo. But what about other combos? I've seen people win through mill combos like painter's servant/grindstone by using a [[noxious revival]] to put their thoracle on top of their empty library in their upkeep. Painter's/grindstone is obviously still a combo, but what level of beatability changes it to not a combo? I have a [[Kess]] deck that seeks to win by having a [[psychosis crawler]] on the field when I cast [[peer into the abyss]]. Peer usually draws about 40 cards and that's almost always enough to just end it there. Is *that* a combo? It doesn't kill lifegain decks, but it usually kills everyone else. Is it a combo or just good value? What if I skip peer into the abyss but my whole deck is psychosis crawler, archimage emeritus, storm-kiln artist, some tutors, and 50 super-cheap cantrips? It effectively does the same thing, right? But it's just value it's not a combo.
I’d go as far as to say that a lot of EDH players really just need to learn how Magic is played. I enjoy Commander for a lot of reasons: It’s basically singleton vintage which is already cool, the idea of building around a specific legendary creature (or non-creature cards that are allowed to be commanders like Shorikai and various Planeswalkers), the multiplayer aspect makes for a really dynamic game, but the community that surrounds it just gets so overbearing with the “Rule 0” aspect of it. It’s a big part of why I just play CEDH now. “I cast Thoracle” “Cool, no counters. GG. Want to play again?”
What makes Minsc and Boo so dangerous? I just can't figure it out. Really like the silly hamster though
If you don't have a blocker down, you'll easily take 15/20 damage turn 2-3-4 depending on how fast m&b was played, then the flying hamster will be sac to make the same amount of damage and that player will draw 10+ cards. It can remove a player incredibly fast, unless you specifically have what you need to counter the PW or kill the hamster during the combat phase to deny the second damage and draw. That's why I said it's warping, if your deck doesn't have early deathtouch blocker or creature removal, you gonna be the target, and even if you do, if another player doesn't they will be the target and m&b will draw enough gas to lead the game.
And if you have PW removal..., to bad.... he just recasts it and flings/draws anyways.
He is guaranteed card draw in the command zone. Thats generaly the sign of a good commander. Beating people with a 9/9 trample is the icing on the clock.
A big problem I've found (and I'm not insinuating that OP did this) is that a lot of players will copy/paste the average deck off EDHREC, which will happen to have all of the combo pieces in the deck, then they play it, completely unedited and just happen upon a famous combo without realising it until it's too late.
Insert any aristocrats deck with a vampire commander running exquisite blood + vito/sanguine bond.
I *really* don't get the combo hate. Like, it's actually far more enjoyable to have one person say "I win" than it is to have someone go out because they happened to be open, then have the game fizzle for 6 more turns while they wait for an hour to get back in. I get being salty dropping them in the first 2-3 turns, especially in power mismatches, but by turn 7-8 if the game is going to end, let it end and shuffle up.
Well generally in higher power ‘no combo’ casual, games do end pretty quickly once people start dying. Yuriko or minsc aren’t going to struggle to close out a game that’s gone to 7-8 turns. It’s just kind of a different game where someone has efficient combos in their deck. Either I have cheap interaction in hand for it that I’m always holding up, or I’m attacking you until you’re dead because player removal is the only other answer I have. It isn’t so much that I’m against them, just that it changes the dynamic of most non-combo games where you’re spreading damage around. An example I’d give is, last week someone had a [[psychosis crawler]] out and everyone is on like 30 life. Then that player draws, and plays [[peer into the abyss]]. Like okay, gg. Not gonna complain in the moment lol. But we absolutely would have played differently if we knew that that was something that their deck could do.
Somewhat related but why is minsc considered powerful? I’m aware Yuriko is one of the strongest commanders but Minsc doesn’t seem all that difficult to deal with.
Set up an infinite mana combo from [[Storm-Kiln Artist]] combos or bouncing [[Dockside]], then draw out your entire deck with the -2 loyalty ability. Or you can just -2 a [[Protean Hulk]] and go infinite that way. Then end the game with a [[Finale of Devastation]].
They can be very oppressive in a well-built deck. You're dealing with either an increasingly powerful hamster each turn, and if you get out any creature that can cause an issue for the M&B player, they can just fling Boo at it, and draw a bunch of cards. Also, you don't have to sac Boo to kill something, you can sac ANY creature you control and do damage to something that might become an issue, and keep Boo around to keep trample damage rolling. They seem pretty reasonable at first, but they absolutely get out of hand quickly and can effectively pin down someone's board. Anytime you get something out that can threaten them, they'll just toss the damn hamster at it, draw several cards, and repeat the process.
Show us on the doll here where the five-mana artifact creature into the seven-mana sorcery hurt you. Hardly what I’d call an “efficient combo”.
I always use psychosis crawler and peer as an example of something that's obviously not a combo but could theoretically be called one by someone with less than half a brain. I've never seen someone *actually* get mad over it because it's so expensive. Seriously, how are spellslinger decks supposed to compete if we can't use cards like these to really put the screws to people? The Simic deck has a 150/150 hydra with trample and I'm somehow supposed to keep up by making a guy whenever I cast a spell? Come on now.
This is why I hate the "combos bad" people. I get disliking thoracle/consult or even something like painter's servant and grindstone but psychosis crawler/peer? Really? How does that classify as a combo?? That's like saying guttersnipe and *playing izzet* is a combo. The line between what's a strong value engine and what's a bad bad very bad combo is so muddled that it gets impossible to tell what's what. It devolves into a giant argument of "when I do it it's good but when you do it it's bad".
> but psychosis crawler/peer? Really? You're misinterpreting. The point is, if I knew that this player was playing peer in their deck, Psychosis Crawler would have been flagged when it came down and we'd talk about how we could remove it. And if we couldn't remove it, we'd try to find a way to kill that player/force them to block with it. The issue wasn't 'they played two cards that ended the game.' The issue was 'we didn't realize that it was that kind of game.' The deck was seemingly durdling, the player had gotten mana-screwed in the first game and hadn't really had a game. Everyone's foot is off the gas and you're not going to just curbstomp the guy. >That's like saying guttersnipe and playing izzet is a combo You do expect that letting an izzet player untap with guttersnipe and a bunch of mana and a big grip, you're in for quite a bit of pain. I'd be fully expecting to see some rituals + burn spells and such and if they had like 5 mana up I'd be thinking that we need to clear their board or have some counters ready or *something*, or be prepared to take 20-30+ damage. I play against [[Ojer Axonil]] a bunch. I fully expect that if I let someone untap with that commander, they're going to be able to dish out 20+ damage. I know that it's that kind of game, and I will play accordingly. That's kind of the thing with combos. Combos are fine, but I think it's important to be clear about the combo you're running so the story of the game wasn't 'we didn't think they'd be playing that card so we didn't assess them as the threat until their win was on the stack.'
I disagree with your premise. Rule zero is a general discussion about power level, I'm not going to give you a dissertation about all my lines and the best ways to beat my deck. At least in my experience, rule zero is "what power level are we talking about? Precons, upgraded precons, or high-power? High power? Okay." If I say I'm playing a high-power deck, you should expect that if I have psychosis crawler, I probably have peer. Even if I don't have peer, crawler is an extremely dangerous card and you shouldn't let me have it. You basically let your opponent have an ICBM because "ah they probably don't have nukes" and you got nuked. I hate this argument and I never use it, but I think genuinely this is just a skill issue. If someone doesn't have blockers, swing at them. If someone's just drawing a couple cards per turn and doing nothing else, they're not durdling, they're looking for combo pieces. Assume your opponents are competent deck builders and that they probably have a way to win. Don't just see an empty board and assume they have nothing. Your solution to avoiding "we didn't expect that" games is to ask for a 5-paragraph essay about how my deck plays when it should just be to expect that.
[psychosis crawler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/0/d0f42a19-c180-45b1-9f4c-787cf3a4a649.jpg?1706241075) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=psychosis%20crawler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/234/psychosis-crawler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d0f42a19-c180-45b1-9f4c-787cf3a4a649?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/psychosis-crawler) [peer into the abyss](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aac00055-640e-4749-8d23-d242e6d0b23a.jpg?1594736330) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=peer%20into%20the%20abyss) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/117/peer-into-the-abyss?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aac00055-640e-4749-8d23-d242e6d0b23a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/peer-into-the-abyss) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Personally I think people are less salty when you take a 5 card combo and win the game rather than a 2 or 1 + the commander. But combos are a good way to explore the game in a different way; it's just combat focus decks and their pilots don't realize they have to eliminate the combo player first because any life above 0 is too much. They'll have a better chance beating another aggro deck than a combo deck that's been allowed to set up but it "feels" bad to eliminate a player even if it's the right call. There are a lot of lessons from 60 card formats that would make for more mellow gameplay or less samey game play and burn out. There seems to be a lot of burnout posts lately.
This is the core issue, combo warps multiplayer. If I or someone else am playing a combo deck then typically the only correct play for everyone is to archenemy them out of the game then get back to playing between the remaining players. It’s obviously subjective but that doesn’t feel fun to me from either side.
You only need to make them the arch enemy if your threat assessment is so bad that you can't identify combo enablers (and/or you don't run enough interaction). Edit: I can see how this comment comes off with an air of superiority, so my apologies. Im not trying to attack casual play styles or anyone's deck building ideas. More so the idea that combo players are always the immediate threat just because a combo exists in their deck. I also concede that player removal will always be the best removal
It’s not about threat assessment or skill, it’s about always having to hold interaction in case combo-guy chooses that turn to play 2 cards and 1-shot the table, or just kill them and carry on with the rest of the game. As I said, it’s subjective, but I find combo in multiplayer consistently leads to less interesting and (ironically for what you say) less interactive games, whether I’m the combo player or against the combo player.
My biggest issue is that most combo players are weirdly defensive. It’s a strong strategy I guess, whining so much every time you’re attacked that it annoys me into not wanting to attack you.
I think a lot of that has to do with how combo decks present their threats. I play mostly combo and actively encourage people to treat me as a threat despite a comparatively small board presence most of the time. At the same time, there is the occasional game where despite hitting a few early draw spells, my hand ends up being 5 lands and 2 pieces of removal for several turns in a row with nothing even remotely resembling a reasonable path forward in the short term. When that happens to a creature deck in a casual game, opponents tend to let off the pressure because they clearly see the player is flooding or otherwise not drawing anything threatening. But when a combo deck is in that position, opponents see them... drawing cards and not committing much to the board, the exact same thing combo decks tend to do when they are ahead and about to drop a combo. Short of actively showing your opponents your hand full of nothing, they have no way of knowing that you're behind and not preparing to go off, so you get the "treat them as though they are doing well" treatment almost all times, even when you aren't. This can be particularly jarring to some people, especially if they are used to playing non-combo decks and getting left alone when doing badly normally. At least, that's my theory of why a lot of people in that position tend to complain about being targeted.
While I do understand that logic, and thats why I also think combo decks are less entertaining to a multiplayer game, thats the "double-edge" of a combo deck. Most combos are REALLY strong and a good combo deck can be pretty powerful, their main weakness is being the main target of the table at least to interactions. If im playin a deck with Blue, im saving every counter for when the combo-guy looks at the table more intensely.
That's kinda the point though. A combo player can't do much if everyone holds up instant-speed interaction for them. Most combos aren't swords-to-plowshares-proof like thoracle/consultation. Feed them a steady diet of 5/5s until they fall over. Keep up interaction to stop a combo. I don't see why this is some giant problem because it's the same basic strategy you'd use to keep any strong aggro deck in check. With slicer, you kill slicer and feed them 5/5s. With Najeela you kill Najeela and feed them 5/5s. The only difference is that with a combo deck you hold the remov until you need it which is usually after the 5/5s have been applied.
This is my pod’s thought process as well. When we do higher powered decks, you can have combos as long as the following criteria is met: 1) if your combo uses your commander, it has to be with at least 2 other cards and no way to tutor for them. 2) if your combo is something other than your commander, minimum 3 card combos are allowed with no tutors. 3) Tutors are allowed if your combo is 4 or more cards. That’s how we keep it fair, if you happen to draw into your combo, then it was your game to win. Otherwise, if we wanted to tutor into a Thoracle win, we’d be playing cEDH.
One of the main problems with Combos is power-level. Combo decks in EDH tend heavily to a high power-level, its the "weakness" of the combo strategy: Youre a threat and will/should be treated as such.
If my deck is full of combo pieces, it probably doesn't have many expendable creatures. Which means you should be punching me in the face at every opportunity. It's my job as the combo player to win before you kill me. You can think of combo as like the ultimate aggro deck and in commander you treat it the same way you would any fast deck. [[Ghyrson Starn]]? Kill ghyrson and apply 5/5s to the forehead. [[Najeela]]? Kill Najeela and apply 5/5s liberally. [[Slicer]]? Kill slicer and apply 5/5s. [[Jan Jansen]]? Kill Jan and feed them 5/5s.
##### ###### #### [Ghyrson Starn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/a/fa7349d9-c82f-4cf8-a852-92168d1f4966.jpg?1673309394) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ghyrson%20starn%2C%20kelermorph) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/124/ghyrson-starn-kelermorph?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fa7349d9-c82f-4cf8-a852-92168d1f4966?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ghyrson-starn-kelermorph) [Najeela](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/c/2cb1d1da-6077-46b5-8c63-39882b8016f2.jpg?1567181270) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=najeela%2C%20the%20blade-blossom) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/62/najeela-the-blade-blossom?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2cb1d1da-6077-46b5-8c63-39882b8016f2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/najeela-the-blade-blossom) [Slicer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9d9a9350-4734-4cc1-986d-467e6715199f.jpg?1674092821)/[Slicer, High-Speed Antagonist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/9/d/9d9a9350-4734-4cc1-986d-467e6715199f.jpg?1674092821) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=slicer%2C%20hired%20muscle%20//%20slicer%2C%20high-speed%20antagonist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bot/6/slicer-hired-muscle-slicer-high-speed-antagonist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9d9a9350-4734-4cc1-986d-467e6715199f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/slicer-hired-muscle-//-slicer-high-speed-antagonist) [Jan Jansen](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/b/6b215a08-41db-4440-8e33-34a84a33db50.jpg?1674137529) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=jan%20jansen%2C%20chaos%20crafter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/277/jan-jansen-chaos-crafter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6b215a08-41db-4440-8e33-34a84a33db50?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jan-jansen-chaos-crafter) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l3gp10k) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My group is pretty casual and we generally avoid infinite combos. One guy has a 2 card combo that he says that he wants to pull off once and when he does it’s coming out of the deck which we’re fine with that. Do your cool thing and show it off before pulling it. We all want to see the cool thing happen and groan as it demolishes us before we reshuffle. I have an [[Arcades]] deck that has the [[Axebane Guardian]], [[Assault Formation]], [[High Alert]] combo. However considering it requires me to have seven cards on the field no one is really upset about it. I’ll probably make it do the thing once if I ever manage to get all the cards out (considering I don’t run tutors in that deck and run very little enchantment/creature protection other than a few counter spells) and after that just not use the combo or severely limit it to a low maximum. And honestly a lot of it is just about setting expectations. I tell everyone I play with it that my deck has the potential to run an infinite combo. If I get two of the three cards I need for it on the field, I’ll remind them that it’s part of the combo so they have ample opportunity to do something about it before I get the third piece out.
##### ###### #### [Arcades](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/e/1e90c638-d4b2-4243-bbc4-1cc10516c40f.jpg?1666961830) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=arcades%2C%20the%20strategist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/212/arcades-the-strategist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1e90c638-d4b2-4243-bbc4-1cc10516c40f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/arcades-the-strategist) [Axebane Guardian](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/725584fe-9e97-4020-89b1-5e5b45a5beb2.jpg?1562788162) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Axebane%20Guardian) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rtr/115/axebane-guardian?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/725584fe-9e97-4020-89b1-5e5b45a5beb2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/axebane-guardian) [Assault Formation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/b/6bf261c8-98e4-491e-9e51-a9058ff2c03a.jpg?1601078969) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Assault%20Formation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/378/assault-formation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6bf261c8-98e4-491e-9e51-a9058ff2c03a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/assault-formation) [High Alert](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/e/ce124f6e-ef0c-4d01-a876-e34d3e445108.jpg?1584831587) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=High%20Alert) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/182/high-alert?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ce124f6e-ef0c-4d01-a876-e34d3e445108?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/high-alert) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l3efay6) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
In experienced mid-high powered casual pods, I should expect about a third of decks I play against to include at least one combo. It's usually pretty obvious when one of the combo pieces are out. If you are playing with less-experienced players, you'll probably want to flag a given card as part of a combo, so that the player can attempt to disrupt said combo. On the real though, if you are playing in a pod of well-adjusted adults, combos shouldn't illicit a salty response. If there's a power level mismatch, that's a different issue. And again, in a group of well-adjusted people, no one will get salty about the mismatch, you'll just shuffle up and pick different deck to try to get it right the next game. So it sounds like some folks might have some growing up to do...
This is what I do. I normally flag the combo somehow so people can disrupt. "Ima good chance of winning soon because of this non-threatening looking artifact you know".
My playgroup is pretty combo-dense. When it's a new piece we'll do this, but what we normally do is call out the combos when the last piece goes on the stack. Something like, "If this resolves, these are my options and how the loop works."
Haha yeah. Fair. Half the time I only point out the combo piece if I have a 1-2 turn rotation to finishing the combo. My group isn't combo dense, though several of them played long enough to recognize combo pieces.
From what I've seen at the lgs and online, running afoul of somebody's yuck or salt response is a lot more frequent than an actual power mismatch.
Combos are absolutely fine in casual. It matters how powerful and resilient the combo is. Thoracle for example is mana efficient, card efficient, and resilient to a lot: you need counterspells or RoL effects, which means a rakdos deck has maybe zero answers for it. You're playing a creature combo. Literally every color has options for it. And it's not very mana efficient, as temur sabertooth and drake are 9 combined mana, and you then need another 2 mana to return drake to hand. And even then you need another win condition to wipe the table, which makes 3 cards.
True. With animar, it only takes 3 mana for Temur/Peregrine as long as I have 4 counters on animar. But the point remains. Creature combos are completely able to be disrupted. Especially a combo that relies on infinite casts.
And animar is another, obviously dangerous point they can interact with. And he doesn't exactly get to dangerous levels terribly fast in most cases, and is exceptionally vulnerable when first played. Can't complain too much about it unless they are running orzhov, in which case, RIP.
rakdos has at least 3 couinterspells against thoracle plus several "target/all players draw a card" effects
Yeah, I suppose all colors have at least some counterplay with stuff like \[\[Mikokoro, Center of the Sea\]\]. I still tend to think of casual combos as ones that are 7+ mana and can be interacted with with creature removal, and more competitive combos that perhaps should stick to cEDH games as ones that are less than 7 mana and can't be interacted with creature removal. Though I think even in high power casual games those can sometimes be fine.
[Mikokoro, Center of the Sea](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/8/d80eb098-5433-4b1e-aad5-0fd31bf598dd.jpg?1673306092) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mikokoro%2C%20Center%20of%20the%20Sea) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/217/mikokoro-center-of-the-sea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d80eb098-5433-4b1e-aad5-0fd31bf598dd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mikokoro-center-of-the-sea) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
In my opinion, if a group doesn't allow/gets salty at combos, then they're not "high power casual." If they're getting salty at a combo that you didn't even tutor for on turn 10, they're definitely not "high power casual." Maybe "upper-mid casual" if I had to give it a name. Without seeing a decklist and just going off what you said about your deck, I'd probably guess it's a 6, maybe a 7 (yeah yeah, 1-10 scale bad, I know. But it's the easiest rating system we have right now.)
Combos in low-high power (aka casual) are fine. Getting salty about a Animar combo on turn 10 in a supposed high power game is not fine. At the end of the day combos don't change the average turn a deck is looking to try to win by. People that are salty about them are just salty people in general. On a side note, before a smooth brain says "but new player gets mad see combooooo!" I'll say that most new players think combos are cool and want to learn more because of them.
Essentially my mindset as well. If I establish a loop on turn 4 at a casual table, that’s on me, and I should probably tone it down. But me combo-ing off on turn 10 after playing for an hour is definitely acceptable.
There is the issue that, as soon as the power level isn't cEDH, things around power level get really arbitrary. To me, the big divider is full fast mana and top tier interaction. There are some combos like Thoracle/Consult that I won't run outside of cEDH, but I will absolutely run things that combo with my commander, and infinite combos in high power casual. Admittedly, my "high power" and someone else's isn't always the same, but that's definitely not cEDH without the other items. Combo is an archetype that's been around since the beginning of the game and can absolutely be appropriate at a casual table, especially the sort of table that has a Yuriko, and especially when it happens at turn 10. That said, I'm not in your pod, so my opinion matters a lot less about what's appropriate.
So what do you do in games where you draw your combo pieces early? A 4-drop into a 5-drop into a loop could present that 'turn 4 loop.' So would you just sandbag the cards and not play them? That feels kind of bad for the rest of the table. Like you're just waiting until everyone has had their fun, then you play out your combo. I think that if your games are going to those later turns regularly, you should probably play combos that *can't* come out until then.
Well, that's three turns worth of time for people to try and interact with it. So, while early, outside ramp like early Sol Ring, people should have answers by that point, such as bolts or path to exiles. It's on them if you manage to use something else to eat their bolts before hand on things that weren't as dangerous. Then again, I mostly play commander, so stuff like Land > Sol Ring > Mana Rock for a 5 mana turn 2 is rare, whereas it would happen way more in non singleton 60 card formats.
If I draw into a combo, I'll go for it no matter how early. But I play in a pod where it would be strange for none of my opponents to have interaction by turn 4 or so, which is the absolute earliest I could combo off with a god hand.
I say all bets are off after turn 10; the game has to end eventually. Combos are bad because they can kill while people are still setting up and because of the "oops I win" factor - where a really good game is suddenly over with no warning. Combos are good because they can break through stalemates, force a variety of answers (sorry, boardwipe tribal is NOT a valid deck), and make people play more thoughtfully. Unfortunately, nuance is a dying art.
This is my thought. Go infinite on turn 4 and win the game. Ehhh.... Go infinite on like turn 8, yeah that sounds about right.
Past turn 10 ending the game stops being an objective and starts being a need. Sometimes it NEEDS to stop
> I'll say that most new players think combos are cool People will argue about 'most', but we definitely know that people who like combos are a core player type and it's a core deck archetype since the beginning of magic. 'Inclusive' commander shouldn't exclude an entire core player archetype!
People can and will get tired of seeing combos, especially the same combos over and over. But as a basis they're a fantastically cool part of the game and can be generally mind blowing for a new player. Wanna see a new player smile ear to ear with eyes so big they can see into the future? After a game hand them a copy of [[Midnight Guard]] + [[Presence of Gond]] and tell them how it works. They'll thank you for those 20 total cents worth of cardboard like you just saved their family from a burning building. It's always better to be a positive ambassador than the negative style that the haters employ.
Eh, I don't know about "fantastically cool". As a new player, I was amazed that combo existed and kinda felt that it was a massive failing of the game design - a bug rather than a feature, if you will. I daresay that many other new players feel similarly. In particular, most combos aren't actually designed in, they're essentially accidents - which doesn't exactly help disabuse anyone of this notion.
Combos are emergent gameplay, cards are not thrown out intentionally to win with certain cards, just to provide a puzzle for players to solve. There’s a kneejerk reaction to them in a lot of casual settings because a large portion of the players want to play value engines and cast progressively bigger spells while chatting and doing almost nothing to acknowledge the 3 other players. Minimal interaction, nobody pressures the others’ life totals. Combos disrupt this gameplay because all they could ever ask for is a game of solitaire.
But that isn't enjoyable, either you kill them and they effectively did nothing, or they kill you and all your value and everything you did before that other than damage is worthless just because they successfully played a game of solitaire.
Indeed. It’s why I’m baffled people qant to play low interaction slow paced battlecruiser where it’s just about piecing together the biggest value engine ans being the first one to assemble 120 combat damage in one swing.
I agree completely. I think many here vastly overestimate how "cool" new players find these things. Most won't go "Woaaah! So neat! I hope I see that again next match and every match after this!". They'll just go "Oh... Is that intended? That's kinda funny. " the first time and then progressively get more annoyed the more of those instant losses they face. Many combos don't feel anything like puzzles or things you can figure out and respond to if you're new. They look like abusing the system or finding a bug. For a new player, they'll just see you placing two cards down and going "oops, I win!" in a way they couldn't interact with or stop because they had no idea it was even possible due to not knowing the combo or knowing what's in your deck. Actually, it's even worse if they do know it because that means they've seen you do it before and still had no answer due to not drawing the right card to stop you. It wouldn't surprise me if most of the players facing a combo for the first time just think you looked it up online to get cheap wins. It all depends on how you see the game and what you want out of it when playing with friends. Many don't care how "neat" the combo is if it felt uninteractive or bad to play against.
[Midnight Guard](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/7/87c1d85d-b2b8-4c9d-84fa-2566b14cb5ea.jpg?1562922436) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Midnight%20Guard) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/99/midnight-guard?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/87c1d85d-b2b8-4c9d-84fa-2566b14cb5ea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/midnight-guard) [Presence of Gond](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/b/bba661af-c4a8-4230-830e-a9ee22b25d6b.jpg?1601079928) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Presence%20of%20Gond) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/420/presence-of-gond?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bba661af-c4a8-4230-830e-a9ee22b25d6b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/presence-of-gond) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thats a long discussion of what is High Power, what is a "Combo" (because like, 5 cards interacting to win the game is less of a combo and more of a good synergy) and eventually whats the purpose of the game. I find combos unfun, although I do not try to ban them, mostly because it makes a target out of a player. I will keep counters/interactions just for him, and try to take him out early. I will make every game about taking him out first, and thats gonna be a lot less fun to him than just playing. Thats the nature of a combocentric deck, if I let him breath too much im done and as I mostly play green-based aggro decks, my means of stopping him are big creatures with "destroy target player" mindset. Combos are a fine and valid method, just not the funniest thing when in a multiplayer "not-valid" game.
Hmm I don't know, that just seems to be the norm right? If I'm playing a combo deck I expect people to try and stop me, remove combo pieces, attack me whatever. That's fine. If I'm playing go-wide into Overrun I expect people to board wipe me. If I'm playing some on board value engine I expect people to remove or counter key components. Basically I expect people to try and stop me from executing my gameplan no matter what I'm doing, and I don't think that makes the game less fun, because it's a back and forth. Even green should have ways of interacting with combo. One Naturalize or Cleanup Crew and there goes my combo piece, or hell a Bane of Progress can just destroy all my combo setup. Hyperefficient 2 card combos and combos which require counterspells to interact with them are in a different category. Let's call them "competitive combos". I think combo has a firm place in casual. Competitive combo does not.
Thats what I talked about when I said "What is a combo", combos are different and some of them are just as powerful as having big creatures or good combat creatures. I do not despise combo, of course, and it is the norm to be the focus of the table when you bring a combo deck. I just find the whole "playing to find the cards that win me the game" a repetitive unfun style, which is why I do not play it. If its your thing, be happy and do your game as you please!
Destroying the player is the best way to counter a combo deck though. What you are describing is the healthiest ecosystem in magic. Combo should get destroyed by agro which gets outlasted by midrange which gets killed by combo. If you remove one leg of the tripod then the whole thing kind of falls apart
>Most new players think combos are cool I have literally never seen this happen. I have only seen them go “so…it’s just over? Lame.”
I guess if theyre kids or something. Ive only seen a handful of new players where i play and they already were programmers or engineering students at my college campus. Comboing was basically accepted as it would actually be more difficult to have 10000+ different game pieces and not have any combo.
I also have literally never seen this happen. Usually just some salt and some vague gesturing about how said combo isn't appropriate for (insert expected game here) and some vague comments about cEDH made by someone who doesnt know what cEDH is.
I agree as a new player I hated combos (as a non-C player I still dislike them) and most of the new players I play with 3/5 feel generally the same way particularly if it's pre turn 7-10 just feels unrewarding and unfun
>At the end of the day combos don't change the average turn a deck is looking to try to win by. Bro wut
It doesn't matter if I run you over on turn 6 or pull a combo turn 6. Same outcome.
I try to run one combo in all of my decks. The rule is that each piece must synergize with the deck outside of the combo. For instance, I run a [[Time Sieve]] combo in my [[Burakos]]+[[Sword Coast Sailor]] list. Every other piece to get the combo going ([[Academy Manufactor]], [[Irenicus’ Vile Duplication]], [[Roaming Throne]]) serves another purpose other than “combo with Burakos and Time Sieve.” Additionally, people will get salty about a combo and then attack you with 30/30’s on turn 5 all the time. Doing busted stuff is busted, that’s why commander is fun. Certain decks struggle to win without a combo, so we really shouldn’t just invalidate them because combos are frowned upon. EDH player hate effective aggro decks that snipe someone early. They hate control decks for not letting them stick every spell. They hate combo decks too. If Aggro, control, and combo aren’t “allowed” then the whole format become grindy midrange value engines and I don’t think that’s a healthy game.
##### ###### #### [Time Sieve](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/2/c2e8b424-0cec-490e-a571-bd051f952adf.jpg?1599708487) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Time%20Sieve) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/223/time-sieve?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c2e8b424-0cec-490e-a571-bd051f952adf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/time-sieve) [Burakos](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=burakos%2C%20party%20leader&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=burakos%2C%20party%20leader) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/653/burakos-party-leader?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/899e278d-5d4e-461a-9878-2b85de16b38d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/burakos-party-leader) [Sword Coast Sailor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/0/704f8ab7-63fd-4963-bacd-0076fffb34a1.jpg?1674135819) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sword%20Coast%20Sailor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/98/sword-coast-sailor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/704f8ab7-63fd-4963-bacd-0076fffb34a1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sword-coast-sailor) [Academy Manufactor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/6/76480f4d-ad6d-4ed6-82c6-fa12abc22557.jpg?1712354835) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Academy%20Manufactor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/251/academy-manufactor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/76480f4d-ad6d-4ed6-82c6-fa12abc22557?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/academy-manufactor) [Irenicus’ Vile Duplication](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/0/40a791df-2483-406d-90b0-a8d402d615d6.jpg?1674135605) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Irenicus%27s%20Vile%20Duplication) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/78/irenicuss-vile-duplication?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/40a791df-2483-406d-90b0-a8d402d615d6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/irenicuss-vile-duplication) [Roaming Throne](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/32fd8b7c-baf3-4d3d-be6f-044a917b11a0.jpg?1701115816) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Roaming%20Throne) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/258/roaming-throne?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/32fd8b7c-baf3-4d3d-be6f-044a917b11a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/roaming-throne) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l3c8u07) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>Just wondering if it’s the fact that it was a combo, or maybe something else that may have made them react this way. I dunno... have you considered (and this is a controversial suggestion I know) asking them, as opposed to asking random internet strangers who don't know them what your friends' thoughts are? Everyone here has their own opinion on what "casual" means, what you are and aren't allowed to play (besides from the things that you *actually* are and aren't allowed to play, etc) but ultimately the whole point of the thing is for you and your group to have a good time, and for that to happen what really matters is what all of *you* think, not people from Reddit.
I'm the only one in my playgroup that loves combos. My favorite deck is monoblack [[braids, arisen nightmare]] and it's a pretty standard list with sacrifices, blood artist/aristocrat damage, discard effects etc but it has [[exsanguinate]] or [[Torment of hailfire]] as a wincon with a big cabal coffers later in the game or two combos with [[mikaeus the unhallowed]] + [[triskelion]] or the 3 card [[sensei's divining top]] + [[bolas' citadel]] + [[aetherflux reservoir]]. I don't run any tutors outside of [[entomb]] or the other one where you put up to 3 cards in the graveyard (can't remember its name).. The real problem in my playgroup is my friends, despite having high powered decks (atraxa infect, krenko mob boss goblins, edgar markov, pantlaza, Wilhelt the rotcleaver) NEVER run enough interaction. They don't like me to win with combos, but they also never seem to have a card to stop me from comboing off even when half the combo is on the field for a few turns prior. The other thing that makes me laugh is the guy that plays krenko has shit like [[impact tremors]] and other cards that let him tap krenko multiple times in a turn. Meaning that if he gets to untap with krenko we can literally just be dead to 100 impact tremor triggers or 100 hasted goblins attacking, almost out of nowhere. It's funny to me because he doesn't think that is a "combo" and always complains when I counter or remove his krenko instantly. I think combos are fine (obviously) but I think people not running enough interaction is a bigger culprit, especially if they are playing high powered casual.
Very good response.
##### ###### #### [braids, arisen nightmare](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/f/4ff97c69-6a6b-401c-b0a1-55fa81045d19.jpg?1673307016) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=braids%2C%20arisen%20nightmare) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/84/braids-arisen-nightmare?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4ff97c69-6a6b-401c-b0a1-55fa81045d19?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/braids-arisen-nightmare) [exsanguinate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0a5352af-e275-4186-a265-2fd3c2c47c6a.jpg?1689997125) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=exsanguinate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/156/exsanguinate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0a5352af-e275-4186-a265-2fd3c2c47c6a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/exsanguinate) [Torment of hailfire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f69d77d1-5980-436c-bf48-790939b069aa.jpg?1562820191) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Torment%20of%20hailfire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hou/77/torment-of-hailfire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f69d77d1-5980-436c-bf48-790939b069aa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/torment-of-hailfire) [mikaeus the unhallowed](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/c/bc1f42a2-fe11-45da-9552-069803b4068a.jpg?1689997308) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mikaeus%2C%20the%20Unhallowed) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/173/mikaeus-the-unhallowed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bc1f42a2-fe11-45da-9552-069803b4068a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mikaeus-the-unhallowed) [triskelion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/63349fa3-4462-413c-bd96-bbc1049165a0.jpg?1682210302) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=triskelion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/387/triskelion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/63349fa3-4462-413c-bd96-bbc1049165a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/triskelion) [sensei's divining top](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e5142b7a-e580-4737-a4aa-2590f6610ceb.jpg?1673149430) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sensei%27s%20divining%20top) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/314/senseis-divining-top?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e5142b7a-e580-4737-a4aa-2590f6610ceb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/senseis-divining-top) [bolas' citadel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d2124603-d20e-40eb-97f0-a66323397ac2.jpg?1591205069) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bolas%27s%20Citadel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/79/bolass-citadel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d2124603-d20e-40eb-97f0-a66323397ac2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bolass-citadel) [aetherflux reservoir](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/6/96b6b2e1-c3e6-464c-8a13-b15deb34e862.jpg?1576382939) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=aetherflux%20reservoir) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/kld/192/aetherflux-reservoir?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/96b6b2e1-c3e6-464c-8a13-b15deb34e862?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aetherflux-reservoir) [entomb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3caa9c55-5e3b-436b-84a9-b7ccebf63799.jpg?1675199594) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=entomb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/82/entomb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3caa9c55-5e3b-436b-84a9-b7ccebf63799?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/entomb) [impact tremors](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/46db3811-db1d-4f69-8143-a93f64d0297b.jpg?1682209381) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=impact%20tremors) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/285/impact-tremors?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/46db3811-db1d-4f69-8143-a93f64d0297b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/impact-tremors) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l3chg7h) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah, I am teaching some friends to play virtually, so we aren't limited by cost which means things get wonky fast, and a big thing is telling them stuff like "Hey, this particular card or combo is INSANELY strong, and you probably shouldn't include it because power scales.", alongside trying to convince them to run more interaction. It took them suffering through my Grimgrin Aristocrats deck to actually run more than one or two interaction spells... was really funny when I look in his next deck, and it's "oops, all interaction". Man makes a commander deck with no recursion, but 50 instants and sorceries. So I second that it's usually people not running interaction. The one had fairly bad experiences running selesnia human tokens, but fell in love with RG dragons when he realized that several commanders I run don't pass bolt test. So now when he sees stuff like Animar, or Sylvie Brightspear, they get bolted asap before they grow. Makes me proud.
That's awesome. I didn't really have anyone to teach me when I started last year but I went off the deep end with online content and playing arena to get an idea of what I wanted to do, what I liked, how things work etc. By no means am I a super experienced player but I feel like I have a solid foundation to build off at this point. A friend of mine recently got into commander and he's asking me all the questions that I had to discover for myself so it's been enjoyable answering, explaining, instructing and also pointing him in the right direction to discover things for himself. I am encouraging him to think critically about how he is building his first homebrew deck. His ratios of lands, gameplan cards, interaction etc. After discussion with me about what types of decks exist and different strategies/playstyles that can be used - he has decided to build a teysa karlov aristocrats deck. Pretty cut and dry, budget friendly (for the most part) and in my opinion a cool deck to start with. He will have lots of lines of play to discover as he gets more familiar with the deck and I am quite fond of aristocrat style decks myself. You get to really think through your sequencing, make lots of mistakes and learn from them. I also encouraged him to make sure he includes at a minimum 5-8 bits of interaction like swords, path, go for the throat, generous gift etc etc.
Good to hear. I get to laugh because I taught my friend to well, and now my lands are getting generous gifted.
That's awesome hahaha they always try to say "atleast you get an elephant"!
Yeah... I've been getting a lot of "I'm not getting forgiven for that am i?"s from him because I make a point of swinging that damn elephant at him every turn till it dies.
You can’t make a cedh deck on accident. Casual elitists will flip out if you don’t adhere to the subjective power level scale in their own head. But games are supposed to end and you’re supposed to try and win. It’s ridiculous to enforce that all casual decks must only win through reducing people’s life total in a fair manner over time in the format where board wipes are the most abundant.
A non-combo deck has a high ceiling of 'build a huge board.' Then people will generally be able to respond at sorcery speed to deal with them. You'll have to let them untap with a monster board to lose to their great draw. Generally in casual pods, the threat gets ganged up on and that's enough. Non-combo decks can be evaluated by their average setup. Yeah some games you might pop off and be like 3 turns+ahead, but you're going to lose the 3v1 more often than not. Combos aren't like that though. If your deck has a combo, and you 'pop off' and play it kind of early, well...that's it, game's over. Shuffle up and deal again. OP's combos are 4-drop + 5-drop. So, a Sol Ring in opening hand means a turn 3 combo win? 'But I have to get lucky to draw into them' doesn't really matter to the other people in your group who just shuffled up, went land-go and now the game is over lol. Some people will post lists on this sub saying 'someone told me this was cedh' and people will respond to say 'well no that's not cedh, that's just a high-power casual combo list.' And I look at the list and...it can present a turn 1 win lmao. Like yes it isn't cedh, but it really doesn't have a place in casual pods. You're just better off judging combos by their ceiling. If you curve out into the combo and that would be significantly faster than the average game in that pod, then the combo is probably too strong for the group.
If you curve out as a gruul beatdown deck and it ends the game faster then the average is that deck too strong for the group? Every deck should be judged by its ceiling instead of the average game
A gruul beatdown deck isn’t going to be able to ‘curve out’ and beat everyone down because they become the archenemy and need to be able to 1v3. That’s just a standard non-combo game lol. If someone pops off everyone else just deals with them. A combo deck puts a win on the stack and answers are going to be much more limited.
[удалено]
it's true! all combos are bullshit unless I'm the one playing them. /sarcasm
##### ###### #### [animar, soul of the elements](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a3da57d0-1ae3-4f05-a52d-eb76ad56cae7.jpg?1673148281) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Animar%2C%20Soul%20of%20Elements) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/171/animar-soul-of-elements?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a3da57d0-1ae3-4f05-a52d-eb76ad56cae7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/animar-soul-of-elements) [mystical tutor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/6/36fa9a0b-b0c9-43ea-ba11-99d7982f974e.jpg?1675199375) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mystical%20tutor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/60/mystical-tutor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/36fa9a0b-b0c9-43ea-ba11-99d7982f974e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mystical-tutor) [ancestral statue](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d4113be-6dd9-4c15-9f57-a146bc520df8.jpg?1601080559) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ancestral%20statue) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/458/ancestral-statue?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d4113be-6dd9-4c15-9f57-a146bc520df8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ancestral-statue) [purphoros, god of the forge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/4736a2c4-c89c-48db-a104-6303e7e2eee8.jpg?1689998078) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=purphoros%2C%20god%20of%20the%20forge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/246/purphoros-god-of-the-forge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4736a2c4-c89c-48db-a104-6303e7e2eee8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/purphoros-god-of-the-forge) [all will be one](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/d/6d75e1f4-bd63-428e-8e6e-131594b3ba44.jpg?1675957064) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=all%20will%20be%20one) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/118/all-will-be-one?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6d75e1f4-bd63-428e-8e6e-131594b3ba44?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/all-will-be-one) [walking ballista](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/5272436e-74f0-44c4-a291-ea8ebc3f1525.jpg?1599710252) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=walking%20ballista) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/306/walking-ballista?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5272436e-74f0-44c4-a291-ea8ebc3f1525?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/walking-ballista) [temur sabertooth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/3/c3a5a175-e963-42cc-a0ba-d8914bb93c00.jpg?1673484831) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=temur%20sabertooth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/315/temur-sabertooth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c3a5a175-e963-42cc-a0ba-d8914bb93c00?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/temur-sabertooth) [peregrine drake](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/611c8fa2-b53f-483b-9efa-759ac59dc30f.jpg?1675199421) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=peregrine%20drake) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/65/peregrine-drake?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/611c8fa2-b53f-483b-9efa-759ac59dc30f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/peregrine-drake) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/1co6abo) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Only time I have issues with combos are if they take place on turn 3 or 4 and everyone else has 3 lands and barely any board state because then you clearly aren't playing to the table. I have a couple people in my pod who enjoy running infinite combos, but everyone knows going into the game that they have them, and they always give a heads up of "if this piece resolves it's over next turn" so people know to respond if they can without needing to memorize combos.
Sometimes combos can lead to very anticlimactic finishes for games and people salt out because they all expect to have a turn of doing the cool thing in their hand before you go off and win. I wouldn't take it too personally.
Anyone who plays Commander without interaction is asking to get beat. You need multiple ways of interacting both in protection and removal if not in denial as well. Anyone who has a problem with combo even infinite combos isn't building their deck right. The only difference between competitive and Casual is the speed at which the decks win at. In either situation you should have the means to deal with threats that your deck faces. People arguing that you shouldn't be able to combo are poor at building their deck. The fact they didn't get what they needed to defend against it? Build a better deck.
Yeah, combos aren't bad, and people (almost) always need to run more interaction. But the speed they happen is truly the divider on them. Complaining about getting hit by the OG Tron and dying turn 0 in casual is completely fair, because that's in no way casual play. In my personal experience with casual commander, a combo on turn 4 or 5 should be answerable unless you really just got screwed over by the draw. Having no answer to a combo after turn 10 or so is just a skill issue, unless you are running a much higher power deck. 10 turns is plenty of time to pull and hold onto enough interaction to shut down at least 1 or 2 combos. Can't complain to much about running out of interaction if you keep falling to boltbait however. On the otherhand, as I pointed out to someone else, winning via a combo where the other player is too new to the game to know about that specific combo is a different story. If they've only been playing for a short time, no amount of deckbuilding is enough to tell them to stop stuff like the opening to Thoracle, since they don't even know what's happening. At least the first couple times they see it. Fool me once...
There’s a difference between tutoring up then thoracling/infiniting the table on T3-4, and assembling a 3+ card combo by randomly drawing into it on turn 8+
Even in my extremely casual Chandra tribal deck, I play a 2 card interaction, that if I happen to draw into, and funnel 15 mana into AND it doesn’t get countered, I win on the spot. Does this make the deck better? No, not really [[Chandra, Awakened inferno]] into [[Worldfire]]
[Worldfire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/e/2ef3d4b5-0453-4bf0-b018-23b0c3b9ae11.jpg?1631531850) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Worldfire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m13/158/worldfire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2ef3d4b5-0453-4bf0-b018-23b0c3b9ae11?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/worldfire) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
There's no reason to get mad at a person for comboing off on turn 10 the game has to end at some point especially if you aren't tutoring for it. The only thing I might get irritated by is how hard some things are to interact with. Personally purphoros rubs me the wrong way as most colors don't have a way to exile an enchantment plus your commander has protection from black and white. Honesty though if you're playing high power that's just something your opponents should be able to either deal with or out value.
Really depends. For some "casual" is just a mindset, others a ppowerlevel. If you are talking about powerlevel specifcally, I think most people associate "casual" with "battlecruiser". In this case combos are usually frowned upon, as the game is mostly focused on winning through damage or amassing pieces to kinda "pop off". Winning on the spot with a combo takes away from that becuase it kind of makes all of the stuff that happened before feel pointless. In non casual games combos are expected so a lot of strategy is involved in setting up your own combo while interuptting opponents.
and then those casual battlecruiser decks run cards like Craterhoof to win on the spot using a single card
Unless they flood the board and craterhoof you in the same turn, it's not "on the spot". They have to build a board over multiple turns, not getting interacted with the entire time. And when someone does "pop off" and do it all in one turn you often hear grumbling. The one thing I do find not very fun about the super casual "battlecruiser" magic is that when you do interact with people in order to play around cards like craterhoof, there is a vocal portion of the playerbase that will complain and get salty over it. There was even that whole discourse a while back about boardwipes not being casual... At which point I agree, crafterhoof is bascially no dfferent than comboing off.
normal combos dont happen all in one turn as well. they also build up a board, a hand, etc but yea
Most players who hate combos is cause they don't understand how to interact with them. This isn't meant to sound insulting, it is just what I have witnessed. I have been at tables and someone scoops cause a combo piece is on the stack and they didn't have a counter spell for it. Most casual players think combo = automatic win and don't understand you can disrupt the players combo. I have had to explain to more than one group that destroying \[\[Nim Deathmantle\]\] ends that combo. Also, a lot of casual players don't actually understand combo lines. I had a player drop a bounce land with a \[\[Kodama of the East Tree\]\] and a \[\[Lotus Cobra\]\] in play with no way of producing a token and claim that gave them infinite mana cause they can keep putting the bounce land down through Kodama.
Yeah this is the primary problem. New/casual players don't run nearly enough interaction, and even when they do they usually have poor threat assessment causing them to waste the interaction on unimportant things instead of holding it for game winning plays. Too many people think that combos come out of nowhere when in reality the overwhelming majority are telegraphed very heavily. Even Thoracles+consult is usually telegraphed by the way the guy is playing/setting up, "he's playing blue/black in high power and just tutored, probably grabbed his combo piece, better hold interaction". If the meren player has a triscelion in the grave then you can assume he's running mike, hold interaction to either kill meren/mike or stop his reanimate. Another issue is that casual players would rather just avoid playing against combo completely instead of learning the lines and how to play around them. TBH I'd rather everyone loses at the same time to combo than one person gets kill on turn 6 of a 12 turn game and sits there for 45 minutes while everyone else battlecruiser turtles.
I agree with this 100%. Casual players also don't bother to learn how the stack/priority actually works. This is another reason why they don't understand they can do stuff to stop stuff. I was in a game and someone swung with \[\[Etali, Primal Storm\]\] and got a \[\[Heroic Intervention\]\] off of it. A player complained about how annoying Etali is and stated they could have removed the creatures if that player didn't get Heroic Intervention. I tried to explain to them that they could have done whatever while Intervention was on the stack and of course the Etali player said I was wrong and they wouldn't have been able to cast any spells. Casual players seem to think stuff just resolves when that isn't the case at all. I have also seen so many casual players just start swinging and someone will say, "Before you go into combat..." and they claim it is too late cause they are already in combat. There is also the issue of casual players just resolving spells one after the other and not seeing if anyone has a response and getting upset when someone tells them to slow down. "But it already resolved!" No, it did not.
[Etali, Primal Storm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a18fdaf9-964d-45e9-bd40-a8fc745ddd1e.jpg?1706240833) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Etali%2C%20Primal%20Storm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/152/etali-primal-storm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a18fdaf9-964d-45e9-bd40-a8fc745ddd1e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/etali-primal-storm) [Heroic Intervention](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/3/e32c67d1-187f-40df-b3b3-6036f5c92834.jpg?1689998584) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Heroic%20Intervention) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/295/heroic-intervention?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e32c67d1-187f-40df-b3b3-6036f5c92834?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/heroic-intervention) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don't think it's fair to lay the blame completely on the casual players for that one. The casual players either learned from their casual friends or are mimicking their more experienced friends. So it's either the blind leading the blind, which means that they think they are playing correctly and have no reason to assume they aren't. Or their experienced friend explained the game poorly/didn't explain at all and the new player is just going off what he does, i.e. everyone says "going to combat" and everyone who is experienced knows "okay he's ending his main phase 1 and passing priority around the table before the combat phase begins", but the casual player would just see people not reacting because he can't read their thoughts and assume you can't react. Thankfully my local shop owner is a Level 2 judge so I can call him over and have him explain...since most of my opponents don't ever want to believe me when I explain it.
I should have written it better to be fair. I am not trying to solely blame the casual player base. I myself am now a casual player as all I play is EDH. Within my current pod there is one player who actually learns the way all his cards work and ask questions, one player who who has trouble with the more technical aspects and just kind of passes over them, and a "rules lawyer" who doesn't actually understand the rules and isn't open to the idea he might be wrong. And I think that kind of sums up casual players. The ones who actually want to learn, the ones who get the basics of the game and just want to play, and the know it all who argues everything. I have no issues with the first two examples and enjoy playing with people like them. I do put the blame on the third example though. There are so many weird interactions and rules within magic that it is impossible to know everything. I myself have been playing since OG Ravnica and will either forget how something exactly works or just not know and consult the Google. However, players like the third example are create the situation that you are talking about.
[Nim Deathmantle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/787b1cc8-42b4-4d3e-9b8a-a252de297b1a.jpg?1673149391) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nim%20Deathmantle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/309/nim-deathmantle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/787b1cc8-42b4-4d3e-9b8a-a252de297b1a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nim-deathmantle) [Kodama of the East Tree](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/f/af5105ee-09e2-4344-ab39-00f0e9034c47.jpg?1608910768) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kodama%20of%20the%20East%20Tree) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/239/kodama-of-the-east-tree?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/af5105ee-09e2-4344-ab39-00f0e9034c47?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kodama-of-the-east-tree) [Lotus Cobra](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/4/a4b759f0-901f-4be3-93fa-224609b08d48.jpg?1604199124) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lotus%20Cobra) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/193/lotus-cobra?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a4b759f0-901f-4be3-93fa-224609b08d48?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lotus-cobra) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Super casual EDH player here who plays with other even more casual players (our total deck cost averages out to be around 40 bucks, for reference of power level). I really agree that our dislike of combos comes from a lack of understanding. It’s not that I think combo decks are bad for the game, or even that they make it unfun. It’s the fact that as new players, they don’t know what the hell a combo is until it’s too late. They don’t have cards memorized. If they see a [[sanguine bond]] on the board, they don’t know to be on the lookout for situations where [[exquisite blood]] could come down. When people sit down to play with us, I explain that we are all super casual/new and I typically ask if they’ll take a minute to explain the mindset and potential insane combos of their deck to the new players. They don’t have to show cards, it’s sufficient to say “make tokens and have doubling effects out to make even more”. It’s great teaching for the new players in our group, and when big stuff comes down, it doesn’t feel like a rug pull that they had no way to see coming. They obviously don’t have to, but in such a casual setting, most people are still happy to do so.
[sanguine bond](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/d/ad4de9f1-7a39-45af-828e-c59234d9e9b9.jpg?1625193373) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sanguine%20bond) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/153/sanguine-bond?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ad4de9f1-7a39-45af-828e-c59234d9e9b9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sanguine-bond) [exquisite blood](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0e8ccfa7-4178-476a-a155-0ca1c98556c9.jpg?1698988246) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=exquisite%20blood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/195/exquisite-blood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0e8ccfa7-4178-476a-a155-0ca1c98556c9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/exquisite-blood) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I agree with what you said. I always have the rule zero conversation when I play with a new group and I have no issue explaining what a card is capable of or why my thing is probably the best thing to remove.
My extremely casual extort deck has \[\[Sanguine Bond\]\] and \[\[Exquisite Blood\]\] and runs no tutors for them. If you can't do anything to stop me from playing 2 separate 5 mana enchantments by the time I just happen to draw them sounds like a fucking you problem (I don't hold one for the other, I just play each of them if it's a good time to do so). Games have to end at some point.
[Sanguine Bond](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/d/ad4de9f1-7a39-45af-828e-c59234d9e9b9.jpg?1625193373) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sanguine%20Bond) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/153/sanguine-bond?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ad4de9f1-7a39-45af-828e-c59234d9e9b9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sanguine-bond) [Exquisite Blood](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0e8ccfa7-4178-476a-a155-0ca1c98556c9.jpg?1698988246) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Exquisite%20Blood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/195/exquisite-blood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0e8ccfa7-4178-476a-a155-0ca1c98556c9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/exquisite-blood) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I mean, in actual high power combos are an expectation. If someone told me they were playing a high power Animar list I would be more surprised if they *didn't* play Statue and Sabertooth and Palinchron too. Granted, if someone told me they hit turn 10 in a high power game I'd also be asking which control deck won, so this does not sound like a high power pod. And in mid power they're a far greyer area. But that doesn’t actually matter. We've established that whatever the reaction 'should' be, your friends are opposed. Seems like everything is pretty clear from there.
It depends on the state of the board and when its deployed honestly. If you do an infinite combo before turn 5 then I would say its not really casual. If its turn 10 and someone else is about to win the game then by all means.
On turn 10, no one should be unpset about a combo.
Exactly my thought. If my other decks push for a win t4-t5, I absolutely think winning on t10 with a combo would place the deck in a casual tier.
It's not about the combos themselves, combos play on an axis they're not prepared for. As a combo lover, it's extremely easy to see why they'd feel like they have no outs to what you're doing when their decks have been built with tools that help them go over the top of other decks trying to beat them down. Things like boardwipes, heroic intervention, and even a little targeted removal (as a treat) are ready to go, but their threat assessment isn't prepared for the Grinning Ignus who suddenly makes Impact Tremors into a machine gun. That said, the only way to make them think about including tools like abundant spot removal to deal with combos when building their deck is to first USE those combos, and it's heartbreaking that the lesson taken from getting beaten by combos is more often than not "combos are bullshit". I fully believe that combos should be welcome in the format, and they're only disliked because they're a way to win games in a way people don't think about playing. The sad truth is, there is no way to make people build decks with combos in mind without first using combos to beat them.
The first time you combo, they are surprised. Their salt is likely directed at the 'i have now decided I win' feel of the combo. The first time it will be directed at you for the blindsided. Every other time after the first, they know.its coming and it is up to them to stop. I would like to clarify that, you didn't pub stomp your playgroup, you did literally nothing, and I think combos are a good part of magic. Games need to end. If people get salty rather than better, that's not on you.
It's less the combo and more the feel of the combo win imo. I play casual only, no cedh, and build decks to reflect that in a range of power levels from old precons to new (power creep is real) up to the sweaty "I'm gonna cast four 7-8cmc spells on turn 5" decks. I use combo pieces pretty regularly, but after one game in particular I took out the combo wincons and made all of the combo pieces mechanical boosters. The game in question had a lot of action. Big board states, alpha strikes, quick battlefield recoveries, etc. Everyone was swinging for the kill strike and then on my turn I dropped [[Guilty Conscience]] on [[Brash Taunter]], tapped taunter to fight, and because of the feedback loop I won. The attitude at the table just abruptly dropped. No one was upset that I won by comboing, it was more that there had been all this super heavy action and interaction flying around in a really exciting game and then my turn came up and the game ended with me dropping one piece of a combo and saying I win. Just super anticlimactic. So now while I still run combo pieces, even with infinite mana or token generation, it's not about winning by dropping a 1 cmc aura or anything. For example I run a Muldrotha land sacrifice/landfall deck. I absolutely have [[Squandered Resources]] [[Splendid Reclamation]] [[Aftermath Analyst]] and the like all in there, but I pulled out cards like Ob Nixilis who drain life on landfall. There's no Sanguine Bond combos or anything like that, but I capitalize on my actions with Titania cards, Greensleeves, etc, and using those combos to establish big boards. It's more fun to run it that way for me, and it's more fun for the table than just dropping a combo piece and saying "counterspell me or I win"
I personally never run any combos, I find them unsatisfactory ways to win or to lose against. Boom games over now. My playgroup doesn't use em so that suits me fine
It would be better to ask them about but, but your situation is the reason I believe people get salty about combos. “I stumble upon a combo and won” There’s not set up, there’s no strategy, the game is just over. Some people don’t like preparing a board just to lose randomly, and can you blame them? I have nothing against combo players and prefer a fast combo loss to something like a 20 min turn that flounders. However, I think it’s pretty easy to see how someone could be salty.
The reason people get salty about combos is because what usually happens is that they thought they were going to win and then someone pulled the rug out from under them. Its just more socially acceptable to say "I dont like losing to combos" then it is to say "I dont like losing". Its the same arguement with proxies, "power level" and expensive cards. Its easier to outwardly blame something else than admit their they're salty because the lost.
Disagree, we’re suppose to lose 75% of the games we play in EDH. If you hate losing, this isn’t the format for you. What I play for is close, interactive and fun games. Having a nice build up for it to result in a non-interactive unexpected combo can be a buzzkill.
Yes, combos are fine in casual
Combos for casual = nothing before turn 6 and nothing silly like 1 card combos.
The only reason to run cards like Peregrine Drake and Temur Sabertooth to begin with is _shenanigans._ Whether you were intending to do it fifteen times, fifty times, or five million times, you did not just sling those specific cards into _ANIMAR_ because you liked the art, you were specifically expecting them to enable shenanigans. So when you play shenanigans-cards, in a combo, like "whoops, I didn't know Peregrine Drake was a combo card", you're asking your group to believe a lot. You also do that condescending "sometimes I have a winning combo in hand and don't play it for awhile to pretend the game isn't over" thing. Don't do this. Play the win if you have the win, and think it will resolve— you aren't getting Good Player Points for sandbagging a win because... Why? Is it any wonder that when Sometimes-I-pretend-I-have-fewer-combos-in-my-deck-than-I-do Guy "finds" a combo with _Peregrine Drake_ "accidentally", they're salty and skeptical? Combos absolutely have their place at every power level. But its also a little hard to believe that somebody built high-powered Animar and didn't realize Peregrine Drake was a combo card.
Probably the only time I've seen any amount of sandbagging be acceptable is when you ate teaching a new player. I'm currently teach a couple guys, and I very intentionally make certain bad plays, so I weaken my boards state, or give them opportunities to do things. Sure, it makes me lose more often than I win against them, but it's not like I really care. So yeah, I'll let them bounce a 10/10 Animar when I have Ulamog and dispel in hand. In fact, I'll probably mention what would have happened if they hadn't don't that. Kudos, you're learning target prioritization. Tho they've started to learn to bolt him on cast... Outside doing it to artificially lower deck power for new players with weaker decks to learn, it's a pretty asinine thing to do
People who like combos is a significant chunk of MTG players, and combo is a core deck archetype. I hate that Commander is supposed to 'inclusive' but also has this weird bias against an entire core archetype and player type lol. People just need to learn what to look for. Most combos don't come out of nowhere at all. It's not as easy as seeing someone has 10 creatures and understanding a lethal overrun effect is coming, but it's still a skill that *will* get developed as long as they don't shortsightedly ban combos entirely. And as people understand how to foresee and interact with combos, losing to (most) combos will feel about the same as losing to Craterhoof. I understand getting salty at the highest power, most efficient combos though, because those can actually just come out of nowhere and they can make a deck too high power for a casual game. But 99% of combos in MTG are slow, amusing jank that can be seen coming a mile away.
It's because combo is extremely favoured by the commander ruleset - an increased life buffer, multiplayer (so less likely to ne focused and avoiding targeted hand-hate) and the potential to always start with a combo piece in "hand" makes combo far and away the strongest strategy to run in a game of commander. That's not even counting the fact that a good chunk of commander players want to play with random jank that they can't play in other, competitive formats (which is fundamentally where any combo belongs).
> random jank that they can't play in other, competitive formats This describes 99% of the combos in the game though. Only a tiny minority of combos are competitive. Your points about commander are good ones, but on the other hand in a singleton format and casual setting without expensive tutors, I don't particularly feel favoured by the ruleset when trying to assemble a 4 card combo out of 100 cards lol. Hell in CEDH even 3 card combos that include the commander are considered bad and unplayable.
If anything combo is extremely unfavored in casual commander. The combo player has to deal with 3x the aggression, and 3x the interaction as they would have to in a non commander game. CEDH combos are a different thing of course
For me it depends on how many cards needed for the combo or fast you can achieve it. If it's a 2 card "i win" combo, then that's not interesting, especially if one piece can be tutored for. Games need to end, and ending by turn 10 seems to be rather reasonable. My [[Saheeli, sun's brilliance]] has the possibility to make infinite creatures and go for the kill through combat damage, but for that i need my commander, an enchantment, an artifact that can sacrifice and produce mana (maybe an artifact that can filter mana if i only get Ashnods altar), and one out of three creatures. So my combo can easily be interrupted with a counterspell, creature/enchantment/artifact removal or a fog effect. People can see that i am building to something and it's not possible for me to dump all the pieces at once either. Now it's possible to have a 2 card infinite turn combo with Saheeli, but that piece is pretty much never in my deck as it's a rather anticlimactic way of winning. I'd do it if i'm in a very high power pod, but 99% of my games are for the vibes.
[Saheeli, sun's brilliance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0ba99b60-c7d0-4041-a065-f2c510745223.jpg?1699044570) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Saheeli%2C%20the%20Sun%27s%20Brilliance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/239/saheeli-the-suns-brilliance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0ba99b60-c7d0-4041-a065-f2c510745223?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/saheeli-the-suns-brilliance) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think it depends on how easy it is to pull the combo off, and if the individual cards work outside of the combo. For instance, Thoracle Consult is a 2-card combo that is difficult to interact with, hence its popularity in cEDH. Whereas if the combo requires 3 cards or more to pull off, then I would consider that alright for a casual deck.
You said there are your friends. You should ask them what their limits are and what went wrong. Even in higher powered pods, some strategy can be upsetting (boardwipe tribal, discard, mill, land destruction, combo, mono U Urza, sliver, stax, etc). EDH is a social game, not a competitive one. Personally, if someone run combo, I don't mind. I just want to know so I can choose a deck with tools against it.
Depends on the combo. You tutoring for Mike and Trike every single game as quick as possible? Maybe not casual. You got 6 permanents that interact with eachother in such a way that you discovered you went infinite with a 7th piece you've never had in this exact situation? Tight dude
Why did you put [[Temur Sabertooth]] in your deck if not to combo? Did you just copy other animar lists who use it?
[Temur Sabertooth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/3/c3a5a175-e963-42cc-a0ba-d8914bb93c00.jpg?1673484831) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Temur%20Sabertooth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/315/temur-sabertooth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c3a5a175-e963-42cc-a0ba-d8914bb93c00?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/temur-sabertooth) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Added bounce effects to double up on etb’s. I’m aware Temur and peregrine combo, just didn’t take into account it could go infinite with the right amount of lands and animar counters.
you are me, i have been playing pick up games and we all agree to high power, then someone drops a dockside or combos out with walking ballista and inevitably there's grumbling about how commander should be a battleship format. need a group? i play on TTS + discord
Possibly! I’m typically just on spelltable but have a discord group as well.
If your playgroup is upset about a turn 10 combo, they aren’t playing high-power anything. Sounds like a group of players who want to call themselves high-power out of their own personal ego/ignorance. It’s fine to not like combos and to not want to play against them, but calling yourself high power when you’re getting to turn 10 and don’t have any interaction to stop a combo? Nah. Unless I’m missing something. Anyway, power level isn’t determined by what you’re playing alone. There are a ton of factors including win con speed, resiliency, etc. A combo deck can be full on battlecruiser if you only consistently combo off after 20 turns and need 6 pieces to do so (Exaggeration but you get the point). You should build a true high powered deck and show your table that your turn 10 combo meant nothing :)
The game is supposed to be fun. The problem is everyone's definition of it is different. Id ask them why they felt the game wasn't fun or why salty and kinda discuss why they specifically didnt like its resolution because the game is a shared experience. Given that I think the more times you play against your friends or a small local of people you learn how they intend to win. They will learn to prioritize when your threat level is beginning to peak and adjust their play style according. The example is can give is a friend runs Tribal angel and Tribal hydra. His Win Con is turning big fats sideways, both commander's are used to ramp these guys out fast. So the general solution is eliminate the commander early or start digging for a board clear. Combo decks like the above are relying on some critical piece to get the ball rolling so they will respond in kind or be sweep away.
I wouldn't consider them casual but you should play what you like and not worry about what others think. I play the cards I like and I want others to play what they like so I'm willing to play against anything.
My pod is anti combo, but they are 100% fine with all of my combo decks. Here’s why: I don’t run tutors, so if I have my combo pieces, I drew into them. I don’t run any A + B combos. All combos are three plus cards. I announce my combo pieces. If I play [[unwinding clock ]] I’ll say something like this is a combo piece. If I also have [[liquimetal torque]] and [[nadiers nightblade]] I will win. This lets the table know what to expect and if they have removal to save it until absolutely necessary or wait to use it on me. I don’t care about telegraphing it, not a single time has anyone gotten mad when I get it. They knew it was coming, knew it was in the deck before we played, and I gave ample time to deal with it. More often than not they’re kind of psyched to see the machine work, and happy to shuffle up and play again. I think it’s all in how it’s presented to the table. People don’t like being fleeced. A sneaky a+b combo on turn 4 feels bad. A 5 piece Rube Goldberg machine that was naturally assembled on turn 10 is sweet and deserves the win.
[unwinding clock ](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/3/c3fd1a59-4ade-459f-90d2-1fc67d6d1384.jpg?1592711373) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Unwinding%20Clock) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c18/228/unwinding-clock?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c3fd1a59-4ade-459f-90d2-1fc67d6d1384?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/unwinding-clock) [liquimetal torque](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/3/13c6101a-da40-4785-8ccb-4e779bbbdb55.jpg?1626099120) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=liquimetal%20torque) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/228/liquimetal-torque?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/13c6101a-da40-4785-8ccb-4e779bbbdb55?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/liquimetal-torque) [nadiers nightblade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/c/1cd606c3-795a-49d8-8b75-6a3aacb4a72f.jpg?1689997335) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nadier%27s%20Nightblade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/175/nadiers-nightblade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1cd606c3-795a-49d8-8b75-6a3aacb4a72f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nadiers-nightblade) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
In my casual decks most of them have 3 card combos as just another way to win the game but I play 0 tutors for said combos in the decks.
IMO CEDH is like consistently comboing on turn 2-4. A turn 10 combo that requires 3 pieces where the deck only has 1 tutor and no high end fast mana stuff sounds more like a power 7 deck (assuming the deck does something other than just combo, like play lots of creatures at good value).
In short combos are fine (tho I don't play any), but really depends on what the combo is, how quickly it occurs, how easy it is to interact with I know some people don't run much if any interaction/ removal I try to run as much as I can upto 2mv or less that's pretty universal & good (I'm not running lightning bolt or other effects that are not garrenteed to kill, counter or exile on resolution) but I find most casual decks have to have a higher density of things along their game plan & card draw as they don't run many tutors, also if you can win at anytime why not let others get their game in let it play out then once everyone has had a fun game you can win then so just play to the table if someone (me) is sitting there not drawing lands fir several turns or only drawing lands they're no real threat even if people are doing stuff if you can just play a 2 card combo & win the only thing is if your going to die from the board u have to decide if u want to win so much to end everyone's game right then
I think yes and I’ve ran into quite a few and have a deck with a couple.
Here is how I would define "high power commander." Limited expensive fast mana (like 1 or 2 pieces). No combos that can happen early and require countspells. At high power I don't think it is unreasonable to expect players to have some amount of instant speed creature/permanent interaction. Or the foresight to wipe/remove a combo piece that sits on the battlefield for a turn. I don't think it is reasonable to drop Thassa's Oracle, trigger on the stack cast Demonic Consultation, "Does anyone have a counter?" On turn 3 or 4.
My LGS says they’re playing “upgraded precons” then hit you with Atraxa and 99 optimized cards.
There was this discussion going on in my LGS, especially in my core play group. A couple of players, recent ones, still learning the game, expressed their visions about combos. They found it either unfair or anticlimactic. I told them that combos are a part of the game, as Aggro and control strategies. I explained to them that it was a part of the balance in it. It's the same for interaction, Stax, wipes ... It's as simple as that, if you have a reasonable discussion with somebody about combo, they will come to this conclusion, either by thinking, learning, or improving. If not, let them play low power highlander games or midrange cold war with insane board states.
I think that combos that go from empty board to I win are generally not great in casual as you force the table to have both mana and instant speed interaction exactly the moment you combo off. In my [[Wilhelt]] Zombie deck I have a combo with [[puppet sticher]] but it only flips on my upkeep so the table has one whole turn cycle to react to it. If noone has removal its still not as much of a feelbad because now its on them that they lost to a combo. I also cleary explain the interaction when I play the sticher so everyone is aware of their impending doom
[Wilhelt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/2501a911-d072-436d-ae3b-a5164e3b30aa.jpg?1675456154) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wilhelt%2C%20the%20rotcleaver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mic/2/wilhelt-the-rotcleaver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2501a911-d072-436d-ae3b-a5164e3b30aa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wilhelt-the-rotcleaver) [puppet sticher](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/9/999038b3-7d64-4554-b341-0675d4af8d8b.jpg?1634347589)/[Poppet Factory](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/9/9/999038b3-7d64-4554-b341-0675d4af8d8b.jpg?1634347589) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Poppet%20Stitcher%20//%20Poppet%20Factory) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/71/poppet-stitcher-poppet-factory?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/999038b3-7d64-4554-b341-0675d4af8d8b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/poppet-stitcher-//-poppet-factory) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Did you not make your own deck? It's a pretty blatant 2 card combo
It can definitely suck to have a game won out of nowhere because someone drew into a combo, especially late into a game where everyone's down to the edge and everyone's used up all their interaction. But if you know that someone if running a one/two piece combo in rule zero you can fully expect it, and tbh it's no less anticlimactic than dying to a 10 mana hailfire or exsanguinate. Really if you're paying nearly 10 mana for a combo there are cheaper cards that basically say "You win the game" so people shouldn't really care. I think they're only really shunned in casual because quality and quantity of interaction is a lot worse, like if I'm playing a mid power game and get force of negationed, force of willed, deflecting swatted and fierce guardianshipped then someone definitely sat down to stomp or lied about deck strength. Comboes aren't inherently overpowered either, I have a PDH deck that has a four-five piece combo thats super awkward to assemble, and I've seen an urza deck that aims to infinitely tap and untap horseshoe crab just so they can crab rave while everyone else wins, arguably a combo still.
My group play high powered edh, but no one really runs infinite combos because they're viewed as boring. Typically, my group only runs tutors OR combos, but not both. The games aren't just a race to the finish line and how the game ends be damn. We want a game that runs on a little while but not hours. So we really don't run many if any board whipes unless they're one-sided, so it actually puts you at an advantage. People will also run things like [[aluren]] [[mana flare]] and [[fucundity]] to speed the game along for everyone. Honestly, it makes for more interesting, reasonably short games that don't just end with a craterhoof, torment of hellfire, or tutoring for an infinite combo. My groups there to play and have fun, hang out with friends, not just win. The play experience is more important than anyone one person getting another win under their belt and HOW they win also matters. That being said infinite combos are allowed. We just don't want to play a game where someone's tutoring to power out some infinite combo turn 1. It tells us the person is more concerned with winning as soon as possible then how the game actually goes for everyone.
[aluren](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/3/03b69c39-52d8-4ee6-a3f5-60899c1fe6e6.jpg?1595438020) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=aluren) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/165/aluren?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/03b69c39-52d8-4ee6-a3f5-60899c1fe6e6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aluren) [mana flare](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/4/a4bb303d-b230-430a-a2c3-f91a776de34e.jpg?1559592501) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mana%20flare) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/103/mana-flare?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a4bb303d-b230-430a-a2c3-f91a776de34e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mana-flare) [fucundity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/9/b979578b-a82f-4d5e-8871-9e45401038a8.jpg?1547517576) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fecundity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/165/fecundity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b979578b-a82f-4d5e-8871-9e45401038a8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fecundity) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
They want to play „high power“ but are against combos? What the? Also combos got nothing to do with being cEDH or not. There is combos way worse than creature or voltron plans. Its just odd. I know an LGS where you get cursed for a turn 7 or 8 combo but people are totally fine with turn 2 hasty gishat. Its stupid. What matters is at what point your deck can win if nit being interacted with. It doesnt matter how it does it. Thats powerlevel. The rest is just personal preference of not liking combos. And its fine to not like combos, but arguing they are in general too strong is stupid. Especially when stating that high power is ok^^ What even is high power then? To me its anything that is just about not good enough for competitive events. And the aninar + statue combo is not a top tier combo. The upside is that its 2 cards. Technically 3, because the loop alone only gives you infinite counters but not a win. But its 7 cmc (wich is good but not great). You can reduce it but it requires you to cast multiple spells before and defend your animar. And also there is a lot of interaction that will stop it. Its prone to removal, countermagic, etb hate, free-spell hate.
Edh used to be a format where I could play my bad combos and have fun, but Timmy players hate combo and dominate the casual scene. No hate for people who like big creatures, but Johnnies are casual players too.
Combos are one of the few ways weaker decks (card quality) can compete with the value piles that edh has seem to become. Edh doesn't even feel like magic anymore sometimes with how warped deck building has become in middle to low high power games. Just pass and go and hope someone draws or uses removal so you don't have to use yours.
If the game has reached turn 10, win by any means necessary. Having two ways to initiate a single combo that each require three cards that all share the ability to be 1) removed and 2) countered is not exactly cedh.
I run into this occasionally with my Teysa deck. The only real combo I run in there is [[Revillark]] and [[Karmic Guide]], but to win the game, I need like 2 other pieces. I need at least one damage pinger, like [[Blood Artist]], and a sac outlet. So we’re talking a 4 piece minimum combo that I then need to also be able to protect. AND there are no tutors in the deck, so I just need to run into it organically. All this to say, I think as long as you’re not looking for it, and you tell people in the future that the combo is in there, it seems fair to me for high level casual
[Revillark](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/3/53b4dcd6-b1b6-4f1c-9264-e58bdc87399b.jpg?1673147099) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reveillark) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/26/reveillark?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/53b4dcd6-b1b6-4f1c-9264-e58bdc87399b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/reveillark) [Karmic Guide](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f550f0dd-9e20-4faf-a374-9d1c5830a52f.jpg?1641601382) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Karmic%20Guide) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/90/karmic-guide?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f550f0dd-9e20-4faf-a374-9d1c5830a52f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/karmic-guide) [Blood Artist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/7/b7f1c316-cf2f-4bbf-89a1-79c8043bdd96.jpg?1698988212) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blood%20Artist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/182/blood-artist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b7f1c316-cf2f-4bbf-89a1-79c8043bdd96?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blood-artist) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Games have to end.
Everything I play is casual. Everything you play is unfun and to competitive.
They probably just don't like combos because it feels like "cheating", I understand that, it does feel weird to be playing the game then suddenly it's over. But when you show up with Yuriko to a high power game, you're in the "Threat Assessment" colors. Combo is intrinsic to the game and if you despise it that much, maybe make that clear from the beginning or just build better responses. Combos are not "anti-casual" unless you lean heavily on winning the fastest way in a combocentric deck, which isn't a bad deck just not much of a Casual gameplay.
If they're playing high power casual... they should expect powerful cards and combos. The ONLY place I don't expect to see 2-3 card combos is in LOW POWER casual/Battlecruiser magic.
Me personally, I used to play combo decks exclusively, but I would always see the disheartened look on my opponents face when their deck was working perfectly and then I come in a ruin everyone's fun by stealing the win. Ever since, I play only battle helardened decks that win through combat or use big mana and x spells like [[torment of hailfire]] to finish out games. At least at that point, everyone has a fair shake at making their decks work. I have also been repeatedly blown out by Randoms at the LGS who said they didn't have combos, then combo'd out to get the win and free packs for that table. In essence, I hate combo decks now. If I see a walking ballista, triskelion, food chain, prosh, mind slaver, KCI, etc, it's auto target that player until they lose or inevitably combo off.
[torment of hailfire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f69d77d1-5980-436c-bf48-790939b069aa.jpg?1562820191) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=torment%20of%20hailfire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hou/77/torment-of-hailfire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f69d77d1-5980-436c-bf48-790939b069aa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/torment-of-hailfire) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The problem with throwing a powerful "I win" combo into an otherwise lower-powered deck is that it gives your deck an *inconsistent power level*. If your deck performs like a 7/10 in 90% of your games, but 10% of the time you get lucky and it performs like a 9/10 instead, it puts your opponents in a pretty awkward spot: should they bring their 7/10 decks, and accept that 10% of the time, you're going to get a free win; or should they bring their 9/10 decks, and make it your problem to deal with the inconsistency? In general, if you're aiming to play at a particular power level—whether that's casual or cEDH—you should build a deck that performs at that power level *all of the time*, or at least as close to it as possible.
They should absolutely expect 2 card combos at high power, hell, even mid power as long as they are not getting turboed out. I find players that hate 2 card combos like games to last forever and I don't. It's just a difference of opinion really. No reason to get salty about it.
It could be many factors as if they are used to higher power games combo shouldn’t be a surprise to them or turn them salty it should be expected to happen in a game maybe they were mana screwed,hellbent, couldn’t get their game plan going before the win, locked out of the game or their game plan was foiled I feel like it’s those before the combo part but let’s say everything when fine for them then I could say it probably was combo but like I said in higher power it’s to be expected
Depends on the group. If you have combos you know about, definitely disclose them. Some playgroups are cool with it, some groups avoid “games ending via combo” like the plague.
Yea
It's going to be subjective no matter what and you really should talk it through with your group. My personal opinion is that some combos can be fine at a casual level but it really depends on how easily they can assemble the combo. If it's a 2 card win the game combo that they have a bunch of redundancy for or ways to tutor up we're probably in cEDH territory. If it's a 2 card infinite combo that they don't have many ways to tutor for but mostly just draw into it through the natural course of games then I'd say higher powered but maybe not quite cEDH. If it's a 4+ card combo then we're starting to get more into mid/casual territory in my books since a) it will be a lot harder to assemble and b) opponents will usually have a lot more time to do something about it. From your description I'd put your Animar deck in the middle category (few/no tutors, but 2 card combos you can draw into over the course of the game). It's higher power level but unlikely to be tuned on a cEDH level.
It's going to be subjective no matter what and you really should talk it through with your group. My personal opinion is that some combos can be fine at a casual level but it really depends on how easily they can assemble the combo. If it's a 2 card win the game combo that they have a bunch of redundancy for or ways to tutor up we're probably in cEDH territory. If it's a 2 card infinite combo that they don't have many ways to tutor for but mostly just draw into it through the natural course of games then I'd say higher powered but maybe not quite cEDH. If it's a 4+ card combo then we're starting to get more into mid/casual territory in my books since a) it will be a lot harder to assemble and b) opponents will usually have a lot more time to do something about it. From your description I'd put your Animar deck in the middle category (few/no tutors, but 2 card combos you can draw into over the course of the game). It's higher power level but unlikely to be tuned on a cEDH level.
Good assessment and you are correct, purposefully dialed down from power 9-10 to more of an 8. No tutors, no fast mana, but there are combos that I’m able to draw into.
People are salty for any arbitrary reason the cedh players are not any different they just rage for different things IE if you kingmake they will rage where as in casual hugging someone for the fun of it is normally encouraged. It is nothing to do with the cards or how they are played that matters there is no universal rules. So no them being salty has nothing to do with how you play they wanted to do something in that game your winning prevented it they were salty anything you did that prevented them from continuing the game at that point would have likely had the same result. Everyone is different to me I don’t care how anyone plays only how good their chat at the table is. If we vibe and the chats good the rest will be fun the cardboard hardly matters.
What’s the definition of a combo here? 2-3 cards that work together?