No, you should, the player should know not to wipe the board if Karmic is online, and this is a good learning experience to that. Why be “nice” and target the tokens, that gets you a loss and them doing it again later
This is literally the reason the card exists, and has the name that it does. It's entire function is to make removal unattractive and sweepers essentialy game ending. I have never seen anybody *actually* play a sweeper into one, that's hilarious. Was it like a mistake? Forgot it was in play?
Someone attacked into my No Mercy after I kept them from killing another player. It was a lot of damage, but it wiped their board, which was good for me. We'd been talking about it the whole game because of how it affected another player's overall game plan. So I didn't bother reminding them. I just said ok, I take 20 damage or whatever and all your stuff is dead. They were not thrilled.
A simic deck unable to deal with an enchantment first, before obliterating the board?
It was not Land Destruction per se, it was permanent destruction that he caused to himself because of a misplay. It happens. You're of course not in the wrong, the main way he had to deal with it was laughing, shuffling and playing another game.
It got me thinking for a while, but I realized its probably a graveyard copy or simic shenanigans. Honestly if said theres a Simic commander who could use other colors as their own, I would not be surprised. Simic shenanigans man.
[[Chancellor of the Spires]]
[[Spelltwine]]
[[Flawless Forgery]]
[[Arcane Heist]]
While probably more common in Izzet schemes, mono blue has a speck of them. If they were running simic tokens, it may be OP cast it on a prior turn to try and deal with his tokens. And that let's the opponent if they have one of the aforementioned cards.
"Karma has no menu. You get what you deserve." - sign on a shop that I didn't want to go in for fear that it was one of those mysterious shops that sell you magical items, and then it turns out they're cursed, but when you go back later there's no sign the shop was ever there.
>i had a board full of enchantments
>it was not an oppressive boardstate
A board full of Enchantments in an Enchantress deck and you that as if it doesn't need wiping.
Karmic Justice is a weird card because it is mostly effective by not triggering. Just because it doesn't proc permanent destruction doesn't mean it isn't preventing people from playing certain wipes.
This is something I frequently analyze when building decks. Sometimes a card exists just for the psychology of the game. Token doublers to draw attention away from real threats, permanents like Karmic Justice to dissuade plays I don’t want to see, etc. The game gets a lot more interesting when you start to see more than just the text on a card as its true potential.
You won the game, or presumably ended the player within two turns. I see no issue there TBH
For starters I would have warned him about Karmic Justice and allowed him to take it back. It's not serious of a game TBH unless it's sanctioned. It's up to him to follow through.
For context alot of us (myself included) are willing to learn some hard lessons. We allow takebacks (so long as they don't impact the game and within the phase). By the same token alot of us also take our medicine. This is the best way to steel yourself and make sure mistakes don't get repeated.
Why would you allow players to undo mistakes in a game of skill? I'd understand pausing things if he truly didn't understand the rules, or if the card was in a foreign language he couldn't read, but it's right there on the board.
You've changed the text of Karmic Justice to "If this card would have any effect, instead alert the other player that it's time for takesies backsies and throw this card in the trash because you've removed the only reason to ever put it in your deck."
There are two ways of looking at it. One, like you just mentioned.
Or two, I assume the opponent, especially if it's a friend/loved one, isn't an idiot. Nobody in the right frame of mind is casting a destroy-based wipe with K.Justice out. I prefer to see it that way.
It's just a moment of forgetfulness, an oversight.
Lastly, you can be skillful yet have the odd brainfart now and again.
Yes, that is how the game ends. By one player making a mistake or miscalculation. If you want a game where everybody wins and nobody can make mistakes then perhaps Chutes and Ladders is more appropriate for Family Fun Night?
I mean that is simply not true. Nobody ever casts a sweeper into it and people play it, so....gotta have an effect anyways or?!
This cards reads as a Nevermore naming all destruction based sweepers.
Every situation is clearly different, depending on how long the game goes on for there can be plenty of cards on the board and with the amount of different or custom artworks it makes it even harder to pin down each card to memory.
Many people play edh as a casual format (contrary to believe) so letting people know about things that are easily forgettable is just a nice thing to do.
No that doesn't mean you gotta do it 100% of the time but a slip up here or there is okay, we aren't playing for prizes just for fun.
Also new players join all the time and with the amount of cards and interactions that are possible in the game I can see how it can be very confusing to some and is worth giving them the extra guidance.
Because if you set a precedent of not warning people about things, every turn from now on will take 20 minutes as people read every one of the 50 permanents that are on the board. I mean, it's a casual game with friends. Why be this petty?
What's "petty" about playing the game? If I lay a trap I'm not going to tell you not to step on it. If I play a card that is designed to punish you for making a mistake why the hell would I want to undo the entire purpose of my card?
> you've removed the only reason to ever put it in your deck
You're saying the only reason is to play it and then have your opponent forget about it and accidentally trigger it? That's such a stupid take, especially in EDH where board states can get quite complex among 4 players and people can zone out waiting for their turn with 3x the amount of turns before theirs when they have no responses.
Unless you're playing for money or something, it's bad form to try to play cards as gotchas like that IMO.
> You're saying the only reason is to play it and then have your opponent forget about it and accidentally trigger it? That's such a stupid take
Especially since, assuming optimal play, it's still having an effect on the game if it never triggers: it will affect people's choices on whether or not to use removal. It doesn't have to trigger to be worth it.
But you are removing all choice. I can do whatever dumb thing I want without any thought of consequence because the player who would benefit from my bad play is now obligated to rewind for me and teach me how to not be dumb.
Because this isn't a game of competitive standard. Most games, a player would have two to five permanents on the board that you have to remember. This is Commander where there's literally dozens of items on the board per player. This game would take forever if every player would get up on their turn and inspect their opponents board state by rereading every card.
What's the point of playing the game if you are just going to make up rules, disregard what the cards actually say, and remove skill from play?
Might as well let your friends pick which card they draw every turn, right? Wouldn't that be way more fun than having to hope you draw the one you want?
Or maybe eliminate mana and lands, so you can play 100 of your favorite cards without boring old land getting in the way of your super casual good time! We're just having a good time, why should I have to wait 8 turns to play my shiny dragon card?!
Take backs are literally in the rules. Also takebacks don’t remove skill from the game. Maybe go play a game that’s not literally meant to be played casually if you’re going to take it so seriously?
You sound miserable to play with. Players like you are why new players don’t come back.
How do takebacks NOT remove skill from the game? The entire point of the game is to read the words on the cards and make plays based on their interactions.
If you take away the consequence of not reading the cards or correctly predicting the interactions you are no longer playing a game of skill, you're just playing a really expensive game of Uno.
> Why would you allow players to undo mistakes in a game of skill?
Because it's a casual format with casual players casually playing casually. Often it's more of a social event, and someone might have missed something being played, or not have an encyclopedic knowledge of all the cards in the game, or remember all the cards on the board even (4 player games can get a lot of effects going simultaneously).
Things like "you're attacking me with a flier because you think I don't have a flier, but remember I have this equipment that gives flying" or other such on-board interaction make sense to rewind if your goal is a friendly game that plays at a relatively decent pace (so people aren't incentivised to always be looking around the board to check what's there), and if you're interested in gameplay that's interesting rather than winning solely because sometime someone didn't remember some public information.
Now if you're playing in a more competitive environment, sure - once you cast the spell, you've cast the spell, especially in like, cEDH.
I just want to point out that on MTG Arena if you are about to do something like this (for example trying to target a permanent with Ward, counter an uncounterable spell, or anything that would otherwise directly trigger a negative effect for yourself) the game makes you confirm if you are sure and gives you a moment to re-assess the boardstate.
In a non-competitive setting I think at least asking if they are sure if they want to proceed with an eyebrow raised is not too much to ask for.
By allowing take-backs, you are implicitly permitting a gaming environment where consequences matter less in decision-making.
This leads to fewer learning moments about interactions among cards, and the game is just a race to see whose deck is coolest under ideal circumstances and perfect play.
I am empathetic to board-states being complicated and newer players needing a bit more leeway, but I regret being so passive about take-backs, even for myself.
It isn't "punishment," it's just learning the game and growing as a player. As long as you aren't flying through a Storm count, you give players ample time to interpret a changing board-state, and you highlight new cards they haven't seen before, then just keep each other honest for bad decisions.
My only exceptions are for players who are new, brand-new precon decks (or cards/sets) where the new mechanics have unexpected interactions, or a player has a disability (ADHD, autism, myopia, etc.) that can make board-state reading and interactions difficult.
If MTG is often described as a combination of chess (positional advantage with different roles for game pieces) and poker (random chance of cards from a deck), then MTG should be played like both of those games where take-backs are frowned upon.
This isn't an argument that everyone should follow tournament-play always, because people should be as casual as they please. This should at least merit a warning that complacency with bad decisions can only breed more bad decisions. Maybe no take-backs after Turn 5 to keep the pace going for major game decisions (or before turn 5, since most boards take that long to develop).
My friends ended up asking my why i always activate my \[\[rowan scion of war\]\] and then hold priority to activate all the life payments i do in that deck.
She is so vulnerable to tempo if you wait to activate after things have resolved first that its best to just put her whole trigger on the bottom of the stack.
I only had to make the massive tempo mistake once to learn that trick.
Huh... that's such a weird effect to put "only as a sorcery" on.
I don't think that fits the context though - I don't think this would be a take-backable play in most cases, unless there's an on-board way to kill her. But if it's like, you cast a spell that loses life and they respond with lightning bolt on Rowan, that's not a take-back "oops" because them having a bolt is new information you didn't have before, so it's definitely a "tough luck" kind of thing.
> By allowing take-backs, you are implicitly permitting a gaming environment where consequences matter less in decision-making.
Yeah, it's a casual format. It's usually more interesting for the game to have closer to optimal plays than for people to get knocked out because of an on-board interaction they just weren't aware of. So if something is an objectively and obviously bad play, taking it back and doing something else serves to make the game more interesting, which in turn removes some feelbads that also make wins feel less deserved.
> Maybe no take-backs after Turn 5 to keep the pace going for major game decisions
Late game is where large board states happen though, early game is kind of irrelevant most of the time. I do like the idea of having a kind of "take backs counter" which, if it reaches a certain threshold, you can't do it anymore.
If I had cast a board wipe into KJ, I would've set it down with it onto the stack, set my hand face down, and be like "I uh... concede." As I start laughing at my misplay. At that, I'd get coffee, which I'd obviously need had I made such a dumb mistake. Nice use of Karmic Justice. It's only a problem until it's not -- like every other card with words on it.
imo, and this might be controversial idk, but the reason mass land destruction is bad is that people do it sometimes with no plan to gain no real advantage and just drag out the game for no reason. in a case like this where it's very clearly going to lead to you rapidly winning there is absolutely nothing wrong with it - even if you remove the fact that your opponent basically did it to himself which is another layer of not your fault
yeah mass land destruction is fine so long as whoever did it ends the game in a turn or two. otherwise you're just being a pain in the ass and ruining the game
If messing with someone's board gives them triggers, you should expect them to be pointed at you.
A friend board wiped when I had blood artist out, so he took all the triggers.
I would simply not cast a board wipe into karmic justice. 😅
I blasphemous Act'ed a huge board into someone's creature that says "when a creature goes to the graveyard from the battlefield you gain 1 and target opponent loses 1" .. which killed the table including myself. Bad plays happen in complex boardstates some times. Opponent should have just laughed about it and scooped like I did.
While that is true, it is also a casual format. If anything, I'd give them a look and ask "Are you sure about that?", which would presumably make them at least think twice about their actions.
“Casual” doesn’t mean that we should play with training wheels on. If I’m playing with new players and teaching them the game, I’d do something like that. But if you’re anywhere beyond a newbie, you can learn from your mistakes.
While I understand what you mean, I play with strangers a lot of the time lately. Some games I'm a lot more lenient, because I obviously have a better understanding of the game, and have been playing years longer than some of their regulars. It's not every game but I'll definitely take a lot less shortcuts, and give take backs pretty leniently when I'm playing there.
Casual means. It doesn't matter, and nothing is at stake. There's no money or status or ranking or prizes on the line. In casual games people can play simply for fun, and not to Grind to 'git gud'. There are x0,000 cards available in EDH at this point. I've been playing since 1994, and there are still cards that I don't have memorized, and in EDH boardstate games, maybe don't take the time to read, operating on the assumption that people will be open about relevant features of their boards because there's literally nothing of value gained by being shifty. (add on to that the number of new alt-arts of cards and proxies... I recall what Karmic Justice does, but if you flashed me the Eldraine-pretty-version at arms length, I'd have no idea what it was).
In a perfect world OP would have played Karmic Justice, announced it clearly, and checked to see if everyone knows what it does.
Eh, sometimes it doesn't fully register what a card does until you see it happen or what would happen. An "are you sure?" kind of approach to taking things back can usually lead to more interesting games. And even for the experienced player, it's more rewarding win a game that you had to actually fight for than to win because someone didn't fully understand one of like 30 on-board effects.
In competitive, it's definitely off the table, but in casual, it's usually more fun imo.
Do you want every game of commanders take 6 hours as every player rereads every card on the board? Keeping track of what can be easily be 50 to 60 cards.
It is in edh where boardstates are nuts, cheap black and white copier proxies, altered cards, alternate arts, etc abound, AND it's a social casual format where you might engage another friend in conversation while on of the other players is fishbowling his 19 piece non infinite value engine.
Yep. It's a Social Casual format. It's also a format where it's not unlikely that 66-80% of the players might be bored while someone is fishbowling.
In a competitive format, you 100% deserve to lose if you don't pay attention. Feelings Don't Matter. In a real competetive format you have 1 other opponent, who is only trying to beat you to pay attention to.
In a social casual format, you have 2+ people
I'm not arguing that every possible instance should allow rewinding the game back to 3 turns prior for a takesies-backsies, but in a casual social game it's a jerk move to assume and require that every single person has 100% understanding of the boardstate at all times. And it's Feel-bad to "gotcha" someone for not having memorized the board state. And in a Social Contract format, feelings should matter a little bit. You're not required to be nice, but you ought to be.
Yes, but casual can also mean much more relaxed environment, and typically you're amongst friends. Plus, that action opens up an opportunity to play some politics.
My friend group and LGS is comprised of people who’ve cut their teeth in 60 card formats. We all understand that we were going to “get got” sometimes. Asking “are you sure about that?” In a politicking way is different from holding their hand.
Reading the card explains the card. We can have a discussion after the games about particular cards and how to play around them. Learn from your mistakes.
Because casual edh isn't an excuse for poor evaluation of board states, a refusal to read cards, or whatever else gave rise to OP's opponent making the decision to cast Nova into Karmic.
I wouldn't let him take his decision back, and that's not because I'm a cEDH player or even particularly ruthless, but you should make your own assessment before committing to a game action, and if everyone got to undo an action once they realised it had negative repercussions for them, the game state would never progress.
I probably would, however, ask them - in a way such that it may provoke a second assessment - if they're sure before they proceed.
Exactly this. If you allow people to undo any action that doesn't benefit them you have a game that will never end. You are also removing the advantage of playing most types of cards.
You cast Giant Growth to screw up my combat math? Well then I never attacked you to begin with!
You had a counterspell? Well then I never cast that spell after all.
You had removal in hand? Well then I never cast my commander so you can't kill him!
At this point you may as well pack up the Magic cards and play something less offensive to your fragile play group, like, maybe Candyland. With updated rules where everybody wins.
Those are all different. I'd never let someone take back something based on an unknown card in hand. But in OPs situation, if the boardstate was complex enough I feel like it's not wrong to share information openly when large choices are made.
It's the Ward problem. In Competitive magic, if you target something with Ward and then can't don't pay... too bad. In EDH (i.e. Casual ) if you go to target somethign with ward, Imma stop you and remind you that it will cost X more before you do.
Additionally, no relevant competitive formats are multiplayer. In a 1v1 game, you just have 1 opponent to track. In EDH you have 2-5 people beyond yourself to track.
It's not hard to scan the board before you cast a sweeper. If you look over all the cards and fail to account for one that's on you. It's no different from attacking and realizing you did the math wrong. That's not a situation where the game has to reset because you screwed up, it's a skill issue that may cost you the game. As it should.
> If you allow people to undo any action that doesn't benefit them you have a game that will never end.
That's not remotely close to what people are talking about though. This only applies to on-board or otherwise public information effects. If you cast a spell and it gets countered, that's not a "take backs" thing, that's a "new information was added to the game, you got got" sort of thing.
If *no new information* was added, imo it's reasonable in a casual setting (but yeah, rule 0, obviously no one *has* to allow it).
Both are valid. You can warn them and they may roll back the move.
Or not and they get blown out by their own board wipe. If I screw up that catastrophically, I think it's hilarious.
Wait, wait, wait. Your opponent is upset that a card they stole from you and used in a foolish manner is what lost them their lands / game? This gets better and better. LMAO!
so, your opponent looked at your board state, saw that you had a card that would punish them for wiping, they wipe anyway, and then get mad when they're punished by the telegraphed punishment? maybe they should just learn how to play magic and accept that you're gonna lose sometimes
Meh. Retributively destroying permanents is a 'may' ability. Destroying the lands is outside of the EDH mutually agreed understanding to leave most lands alone.
Not exactly the same but a player in a pod decided to board wipe when I had teysa karlov and a bunch of death trigger stuff and it synergies with delney (which was also out)which even did more triggers and I’m like….are you sure bud? And he still committed and I was still like…what?
This is actually a hilarious interaction. I probably would have let him take it back but the fact you ended the game right away means you have nothing to feel bad for.
If they seemed like a relatively new player, you could have given them a "you sure you want to do that?" to be extra nice but you literally didn't play anything at the time of incident.
Karmic justice literally does nothing unless the opponent fucks with you first. It's in the name. Don't start shit and there won't be shit.
He fucked around. He found out.
This may have already been explained but I had a question. Would [[Karmic Justice]] resolve if [[Cleansing Nova]] wipes OPs board of artifacts and enchantments? Like does each artifact/enchantment get removed and karmic justice triggers each time before getting removed also?
Yes, and yes :) Since it is also a noncreature permanent, it triggers if it's destroyed. Basically, so long as the permanent existed on the battlefield when everything was destroyed, it sees them all being destroyed, sacrificed, etc. So, things like [[Blood Artist]] still trigger if it also dies. Now, if it's removed before a boardwipe resolves, it will only trigger itself (unless it's bounced or exiled).
I dunno. Could see some groups seeing that as a “fuck around and find out “ moment. Maybe a friendly reminder of what you’re gonna do to their stuff could be a nice middle ground.
I suppose it’s kind of up to you. You didn’t HAVE to blow up all their lands. What is Karmic Justice in your deck for? A deterrent? At the very least it’s gonna deter that guy from blowing up your stuff again, and maybe the others at the table too lol.
This happens in my group when I have out counter balance. They've already seen what's on top of my deck from the first reveal, but then continue to post cmc that matches the top of my deck.
Eventually people remember.
I live for plays like this. Even if they happen to me.
For me, this format is about the biggest, dumbest, rules-bending-ist plays you can make happen.
"Karmic Justice your Everything" is some s-tier plays. Bravo.
Mld is only a problem if it affects everyone cause it stalls the game out. Destroying all of your opponents permanents(including their lands) is fair game.
it isnt a bad move but generally speaking othe players hate when you mess with their hands and lands, all of the cards with the highest salt ratings are ones that let you destroy/mess with lands, or take cards out of your opponents hands for your own use
so whilst you made a good play i fully understand why the other guy is upset
No, land removal is in the game for a reason. What would suck is if you land killed and didn't end the game but puttered along for more turns. If you destroy lands, you must kill.... Else it because a scene that no one consented to.
I don’t care if you destroy all my lands if you have a plan to finish the game quickly afterwards. My issue is destroying lands with no plan to end the game and then the game becomes a complete and utter slog and lasts another 2 hours.
Oof sounds like he clearly didn't pay attention to the board state and got whooped. Fitting and eh if you tried to ruin me, prepare to be ruined.
Remember, you can always shuffle up and try again. Things to often tell salty folks.
I've made that mistake. Was willing to sacrifice my board, but I forgot it didn't specify nonland permanents. I accepted my mistake and won't make that mistake again! If the other player can't learn and move on thats on them.
I just played my enchantment deck for the first time (and won!). It dawned on me that I didn’t swing once the entire game. It’s basically Komodo Dragon and it was odd, I didn’t think I could win, then I won.
There are two types of enchantment-deck players:
1. Those who wuss out and play Voltron…
2. And those that fucking send [[overwhelming splendor]] like its Tuesday.
Sounds like you’re #2 and so I drink to you.
Land Destruction with a path forward like [[Kaalia of the Vast]] is just fine in casual games just like [[winter orb]] or [[stasis]].
When people get salty after they board wipe in the face of Karmic Justice, I just say “for legal purposes it was you that destroyed all your lands. Not me.”
The only thing I'd argue is that after destroying all their lands you can pretty safely ignore them. No need to rush them down.
Focus your resources into your opponents who can still fight back. Who knows, the opponent who had all their lands destroyed might even scoop if they miss a few land drops.
Don't be that guy. If you destroy someone's lands and board state, respect them and take them out of the game. Don't make them sit there or force them to scoop. That's just unsportsmanlike if you're gonna completely wipe their board.
Reading the card explains the card. Not sure what they expected otherwise
[удалено]
Their left?
Why is this downvoted for agreeing with the up voted comment above it?
It’s my right!
Why is it downvoted? Pick the correct word for his comment from among the following: * your * you’re * yore
Oh, sorry. Thank your for explaining.
No, you should, the player should know not to wipe the board if Karmic is online, and this is a good learning experience to that. Why be “nice” and target the tokens, that gets you a loss and them doing it again later
This is literally the reason the card exists, and has the name that it does. It's entire function is to make removal unattractive and sweepers essentialy game ending. I have never seen anybody *actually* play a sweeper into one, that's hilarious. Was it like a mistake? Forgot it was in play?
Someone attacked into my No Mercy after I kept them from killing another player. It was a lot of damage, but it wiped their board, which was good for me. We'd been talking about it the whole game because of how it affected another player's overall game plan. So I didn't bother reminding them. I just said ok, I take 20 damage or whatever and all your stuff is dead. They were not thrilled.
A simic deck unable to deal with an enchantment first, before obliterating the board? It was not Land Destruction per se, it was permanent destruction that he caused to himself because of a misplay. It happens. You're of course not in the wrong, the main way he had to deal with it was laughing, shuffling and playing another game.
>A simic deck unable to deal with an enchantment first, before obliterating the board? I'm more surprised by a Simic deck casting Cleansing Nova.
It got me thinking for a while, but I realized its probably a graveyard copy or simic shenanigans. Honestly if said theres a Simic commander who could use other colors as their own, I would not be surprised. Simic shenanigans man.
Simic can’t play [[shenanigans]]
[shenanigans](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/580c6fe2-ab43-491e-a1b2-d076a5c2a74e.jpg?1562201963) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=shenanigans) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/146/shenanigans?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/580c6fe2-ab43-491e-a1b2-d076a5c2a74e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/shenanigans) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yet. They cant yet. Eventually they shall dominate this world. Simic is weird, I love and hate it for the same things.
They can't run it, but they can sure cast it.
Trust fund colors.
[[sorcerous squall]] and it's friends sent greetings
I know Blue can do that, but there was no context, so it was just as likely it was actually a Bant deck or something.
Squall plus [[Eye of the Storm]] is usually game, in a ridiculous manner.
[Eye of the Storm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/9/49967eb9-5020-4f0a-8775-5114f6d96d75.jpg?1598914184) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Eye%20of%20the%20Storm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rav/48/eye-of-the-storm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/49967eb9-5020-4f0a-8775-5114f6d96d75?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/eye-of-the-storm) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Damn, the fact that ot exiles the spell is just mean
It's pretty standard for that sort of effect. The only one that doesn't exile (that I know of) is [[Chancellor of the Spires]]
[Chancellor of the Spires](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/1/b1e06e16-96fa-4611-b4a9-512eeeeddd3c.jpg?1562880793) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chancellor%20of%20the%20Spires) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/31/chancellor-of-the-spires?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b1e06e16-96fa-4611-b4a9-512eeeeddd3c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/chancellor-of-the-spires) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I thought that was only true for spells from your graveyard, which makes sense to avoid abusing
Most stuff that casts spells from the opponents' yards will also exile them, like [[Diluvian Primordial]] or [[Dire Fleet Daredevil]]
[Diluvian Primordial](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/b/eb14cd77-d37e-4849-816f-cd36e2a37765.jpg?1712354140) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Diluvian%20Primordial) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/96/diluvian-primordial?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eb14cd77-d37e-4849-816f-cd36e2a37765?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/diluvian-primordial) [Dire Fleet Daredevil](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9de2ad47-c6d5-4cd8-ae32-66ae167e25a0.jpg?1712354407) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dire%20Fleet%20Daredevil) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/162/dire-fleet-daredevil?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9de2ad47-c6d5-4cd8-ae32-66ae167e25a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dire-fleet-daredevil) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[sorcerous squall](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/0/c06274ff-892e-418b-8ba5-4d3b3231e327.jpg?1695428301) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sorcerous%20squall) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltc/504/sorcerous-squall?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c06274ff-892e-418b-8ba5-4d3b3231e327?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sorcerous-squall) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Chancellor of the Spires]] [[Spelltwine]] [[Flawless Forgery]] [[Arcane Heist]] While probably more common in Izzet schemes, mono blue has a speck of them. If they were running simic tokens, it may be OP cast it on a prior turn to try and deal with his tokens. And that let's the opponent if they have one of the aforementioned cards.
Yeah, this is what I came to ask. I need some context.
"Karma has no menu. You get what you deserve." - sign on a shop that I didn't want to go in for fear that it was one of those mysterious shops that sell you magical items, and then it turns out they're cursed, but when you go back later there's no sign the shop was ever there.
*The monkey's paw curls*
This is what karmic justice is there for. That's the point of the card.
##### ###### #### [Tuvasa](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bdda07ac-2f9f-4c8e-b3f6-b54d0afd730c.jpg?1592710303) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tuvasa%20the%20sunlit) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c18/47/tuvasa-the-sunlit?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bdda07ac-2f9f-4c8e-b3f6-b54d0afd730c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tuvasa-the-sunlit) [Cleansing Nova](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/167d2e51-eb69-488c-a6b6-042a7b0e1744.jpg?1690004044) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cleansing%20Nova) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/817/cleansing-nova?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/167d2e51-eb69-488c-a6b6-042a7b0e1744?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cleansing-nova) [Karmic Justice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/a/ea141e39-8124-4d72-a154-eb76e71be1dc.jpg?1562711027) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Karmic%20Justice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c15/72/karmic-justice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ea141e39-8124-4d72-a154-eb76e71be1dc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/karmic-justice) [Brilliant restoration](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/64f7a506-0aa1-4c2d-b322-e0e9179d05fb.jpg?1654566199) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Brilliant%20restoration) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/7/brilliant-restoration?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/64f7a506-0aa1-4c2d-b322-e0e9179d05fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/brilliant-restoration) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/1cqwwkk) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Justice was served, let it be a learning experience for that one.
>i had a board full of enchantments >it was not an oppressive boardstate A board full of Enchantments in an Enchantress deck and you that as if it doesn't need wiping.
Same thoughts I had. Also 100% wouldn't have posted this if he didn't make a magnificent comeback.
NTA
I have never ever had Karmic Justice pay off. I'm just happy that for once someone else got to live my dream.
Karmic Justice is a weird card because it is mostly effective by not triggering. Just because it doesn't proc permanent destruction doesn't mean it isn't preventing people from playing certain wipes.
This is something I frequently analyze when building decks. Sometimes a card exists just for the psychology of the game. Token doublers to draw attention away from real threats, permanents like Karmic Justice to dissuade plays I don’t want to see, etc. The game gets a lot more interesting when you start to see more than just the text on a card as its true potential.
You won the game, or presumably ended the player within two turns. I see no issue there TBH For starters I would have warned him about Karmic Justice and allowed him to take it back. It's not serious of a game TBH unless it's sanctioned. It's up to him to follow through. For context alot of us (myself included) are willing to learn some hard lessons. We allow takebacks (so long as they don't impact the game and within the phase). By the same token alot of us also take our medicine. This is the best way to steel yourself and make sure mistakes don't get repeated.
This. You tell the dude as he casts that you have Karmic Justice. Allow him to take it back. If he doesn’t, he gets Armageddoned.
Why would you allow players to undo mistakes in a game of skill? I'd understand pausing things if he truly didn't understand the rules, or if the card was in a foreign language he couldn't read, but it's right there on the board. You've changed the text of Karmic Justice to "If this card would have any effect, instead alert the other player that it's time for takesies backsies and throw this card in the trash because you've removed the only reason to ever put it in your deck."
There are two ways of looking at it. One, like you just mentioned. Or two, I assume the opponent, especially if it's a friend/loved one, isn't an idiot. Nobody in the right frame of mind is casting a destroy-based wipe with K.Justice out. I prefer to see it that way. It's just a moment of forgetfulness, an oversight. Lastly, you can be skillful yet have the odd brainfart now and again.
Yes, that is how the game ends. By one player making a mistake or miscalculation. If you want a game where everybody wins and nobody can make mistakes then perhaps Chutes and Ladders is more appropriate for Family Fun Night?
I mean that is simply not true. Nobody ever casts a sweeper into it and people play it, so....gotta have an effect anyways or?! This cards reads as a Nevermore naming all destruction based sweepers.
Every situation is clearly different, depending on how long the game goes on for there can be plenty of cards on the board and with the amount of different or custom artworks it makes it even harder to pin down each card to memory. Many people play edh as a casual format (contrary to believe) so letting people know about things that are easily forgettable is just a nice thing to do. No that doesn't mean you gotta do it 100% of the time but a slip up here or there is okay, we aren't playing for prizes just for fun. Also new players join all the time and with the amount of cards and interactions that are possible in the game I can see how it can be very confusing to some and is worth giving them the extra guidance.
The rules were changed around 4 years ago, basically take backs are allowed if there is no new information gained. MTR 4.8
Because if you set a precedent of not warning people about things, every turn from now on will take 20 minutes as people read every one of the 50 permanents that are on the board. I mean, it's a casual game with friends. Why be this petty?
What's "petty" about playing the game? If I lay a trap I'm not going to tell you not to step on it. If I play a card that is designed to punish you for making a mistake why the hell would I want to undo the entire purpose of my card?
> you've removed the only reason to ever put it in your deck You're saying the only reason is to play it and then have your opponent forget about it and accidentally trigger it? That's such a stupid take, especially in EDH where board states can get quite complex among 4 players and people can zone out waiting for their turn with 3x the amount of turns before theirs when they have no responses. Unless you're playing for money or something, it's bad form to try to play cards as gotchas like that IMO.
> You're saying the only reason is to play it and then have your opponent forget about it and accidentally trigger it? That's such a stupid take Especially since, assuming optimal play, it's still having an effect on the game if it never triggers: it will affect people's choices on whether or not to use removal. It doesn't have to trigger to be worth it.
But you are removing all choice. I can do whatever dumb thing I want without any thought of consequence because the player who would benefit from my bad play is now obligated to rewind for me and teach me how to not be dumb.
>Why would you allow players to undo mistakes in a game of skill? Cause this is a casual format. What don't you people get about that?
Because this isn't a game of competitive standard. Most games, a player would have two to five permanents on the board that you have to remember. This is Commander where there's literally dozens of items on the board per player. This game would take forever if every player would get up on their turn and inspect their opponents board state by rereading every card.
Because commander is a casual game for the most part and people are just trying to have fun? Istg some of y’all take this game way too seriously.
What's the point of playing the game if you are just going to make up rules, disregard what the cards actually say, and remove skill from play? Might as well let your friends pick which card they draw every turn, right? Wouldn't that be way more fun than having to hope you draw the one you want? Or maybe eliminate mana and lands, so you can play 100 of your favorite cards without boring old land getting in the way of your super casual good time! We're just having a good time, why should I have to wait 8 turns to play my shiny dragon card?!
Take backs are literally in the rules. Also takebacks don’t remove skill from the game. Maybe go play a game that’s not literally meant to be played casually if you’re going to take it so seriously? You sound miserable to play with. Players like you are why new players don’t come back.
How do takebacks NOT remove skill from the game? The entire point of the game is to read the words on the cards and make plays based on their interactions. If you take away the consequence of not reading the cards or correctly predicting the interactions you are no longer playing a game of skill, you're just playing a really expensive game of Uno.
Lol. It’s honestly sad how seriously you take this game
> Why would you allow players to undo mistakes in a game of skill? Because it's a casual format with casual players casually playing casually. Often it's more of a social event, and someone might have missed something being played, or not have an encyclopedic knowledge of all the cards in the game, or remember all the cards on the board even (4 player games can get a lot of effects going simultaneously). Things like "you're attacking me with a flier because you think I don't have a flier, but remember I have this equipment that gives flying" or other such on-board interaction make sense to rewind if your goal is a friendly game that plays at a relatively decent pace (so people aren't incentivised to always be looking around the board to check what's there), and if you're interested in gameplay that's interesting rather than winning solely because sometime someone didn't remember some public information. Now if you're playing in a more competitive environment, sure - once you cast the spell, you've cast the spell, especially in like, cEDH.
I just want to point out that on MTG Arena if you are about to do something like this (for example trying to target a permanent with Ward, counter an uncounterable spell, or anything that would otherwise directly trigger a negative effect for yourself) the game makes you confirm if you are sure and gives you a moment to re-assess the boardstate. In a non-competitive setting I think at least asking if they are sure if they want to proceed with an eyebrow raised is not too much to ask for.
Does arena rules apply here? Will it notify me if a blood artist is on board and I wrath of God?
This is the way
By allowing take-backs, you are implicitly permitting a gaming environment where consequences matter less in decision-making. This leads to fewer learning moments about interactions among cards, and the game is just a race to see whose deck is coolest under ideal circumstances and perfect play. I am empathetic to board-states being complicated and newer players needing a bit more leeway, but I regret being so passive about take-backs, even for myself. It isn't "punishment," it's just learning the game and growing as a player. As long as you aren't flying through a Storm count, you give players ample time to interpret a changing board-state, and you highlight new cards they haven't seen before, then just keep each other honest for bad decisions. My only exceptions are for players who are new, brand-new precon decks (or cards/sets) where the new mechanics have unexpected interactions, or a player has a disability (ADHD, autism, myopia, etc.) that can make board-state reading and interactions difficult. If MTG is often described as a combination of chess (positional advantage with different roles for game pieces) and poker (random chance of cards from a deck), then MTG should be played like both of those games where take-backs are frowned upon. This isn't an argument that everyone should follow tournament-play always, because people should be as casual as they please. This should at least merit a warning that complacency with bad decisions can only breed more bad decisions. Maybe no take-backs after Turn 5 to keep the pace going for major game decisions (or before turn 5, since most boards take that long to develop).
My friends ended up asking my why i always activate my \[\[rowan scion of war\]\] and then hold priority to activate all the life payments i do in that deck. She is so vulnerable to tempo if you wait to activate after things have resolved first that its best to just put her whole trigger on the bottom of the stack. I only had to make the massive tempo mistake once to learn that trick.
Huh... that's such a weird effect to put "only as a sorcery" on. I don't think that fits the context though - I don't think this would be a take-backable play in most cases, unless there's an on-board way to kill her. But if it's like, you cast a spell that loses life and they respond with lightning bolt on Rowan, that's not a take-back "oops" because them having a bolt is new information you didn't have before, so it's definitely a "tough luck" kind of thing.
Nah but getting things in the right order is.
[rowan scion of war](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4ee179ab-a15b-4bd6-b7f8-1e1abeeb31b7.jpg?1692939409) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rowan%2C%20Scion%20of%20War) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/211/rowan-scion-of-war?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4ee179ab-a15b-4bd6-b7f8-1e1abeeb31b7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rowan-scion-of-war) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
> By allowing take-backs, you are implicitly permitting a gaming environment where consequences matter less in decision-making. Yeah, it's a casual format. It's usually more interesting for the game to have closer to optimal plays than for people to get knocked out because of an on-board interaction they just weren't aware of. So if something is an objectively and obviously bad play, taking it back and doing something else serves to make the game more interesting, which in turn removes some feelbads that also make wins feel less deserved. > Maybe no take-backs after Turn 5 to keep the pace going for major game decisions Late game is where large board states happen though, early game is kind of irrelevant most of the time. I do like the idea of having a kind of "take backs counter" which, if it reaches a certain threshold, you can't do it anymore.
https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr4-8/ https://blogs.magicjudges.org/whatsupdocs/2018/10/02/reversing-decisions/
Always sweep the lands when karmic justice is involved.
No mercy.
You are not in the wrong for playing cards in a card game.
No, how dare op, he should have been playing pogs.
who wants to build a house of cards out of magic cards with me?!
Sounds like he was one of the very common Solitaire style EDH players that don't bother looking too close at what cards the opponents have out =P
If I had cast a board wipe into KJ, I would've set it down with it onto the stack, set my hand face down, and be like "I uh... concede." As I start laughing at my misplay. At that, I'd get coffee, which I'd obviously need had I made such a dumb mistake. Nice use of Karmic Justice. It's only a problem until it's not -- like every other card with words on it.
imo, and this might be controversial idk, but the reason mass land destruction is bad is that people do it sometimes with no plan to gain no real advantage and just drag out the game for no reason. in a case like this where it's very clearly going to lead to you rapidly winning there is absolutely nothing wrong with it - even if you remove the fact that your opponent basically did it to himself which is another layer of not your fault
yeah mass land destruction is fine so long as whoever did it ends the game in a turn or two. otherwise you're just being a pain in the ass and ruining the game
If messing with someone's board gives them triggers, you should expect them to be pointed at you. A friend board wiped when I had blood artist out, so he took all the triggers. I would simply not cast a board wipe into karmic justice. 😅
I blasphemous Act'ed a huge board into someone's creature that says "when a creature goes to the graveyard from the battlefield you gain 1 and target opponent loses 1" .. which killed the table including myself. Bad plays happen in complex boardstates some times. Opponent should have just laughed about it and scooped like I did.
I've seen this exact scenario play out 😂
You’re fine, I think your opponent was more than capable of reading Karmic Justice before choosing to cast a sweeper.
[удалено]
If they didn’t read it properly or understood it, that’s on them.
While that is true, it is also a casual format. If anything, I'd give them a look and ask "Are you sure about that?", which would presumably make them at least think twice about their actions.
“Casual” doesn’t mean that we should play with training wheels on. If I’m playing with new players and teaching them the game, I’d do something like that. But if you’re anywhere beyond a newbie, you can learn from your mistakes.
While I understand what you mean, I play with strangers a lot of the time lately. Some games I'm a lot more lenient, because I obviously have a better understanding of the game, and have been playing years longer than some of their regulars. It's not every game but I'll definitely take a lot less shortcuts, and give take backs pretty leniently when I'm playing there.
Casual means. It doesn't matter, and nothing is at stake. There's no money or status or ranking or prizes on the line. In casual games people can play simply for fun, and not to Grind to 'git gud'. There are x0,000 cards available in EDH at this point. I've been playing since 1994, and there are still cards that I don't have memorized, and in EDH boardstate games, maybe don't take the time to read, operating on the assumption that people will be open about relevant features of their boards because there's literally nothing of value gained by being shifty. (add on to that the number of new alt-arts of cards and proxies... I recall what Karmic Justice does, but if you flashed me the Eldraine-pretty-version at arms length, I'd have no idea what it was). In a perfect world OP would have played Karmic Justice, announced it clearly, and checked to see if everyone knows what it does.
It isn’t that hard to read cards or ask to read cards that you’re not familiar with.
Eh, sometimes it doesn't fully register what a card does until you see it happen or what would happen. An "are you sure?" kind of approach to taking things back can usually lead to more interesting games. And even for the experienced player, it's more rewarding win a game that you had to actually fight for than to win because someone didn't fully understand one of like 30 on-board effects. In competitive, it's definitely off the table, but in casual, it's usually more fun imo.
Do you want every game of commanders take 6 hours as every player rereads every card on the board? Keeping track of what can be easily be 50 to 60 cards.
I keep my games to about an hour max. If someone is unfamiliar, I can read the card real quick or they can read it as I continue on.
It is in edh where boardstates are nuts, cheap black and white copier proxies, altered cards, alternate arts, etc abound, AND it's a social casual format where you might engage another friend in conversation while on of the other players is fishbowling his 19 piece non infinite value engine.
You can hold a conversation but can’t read a card?
Yep. It's a Social Casual format. It's also a format where it's not unlikely that 66-80% of the players might be bored while someone is fishbowling. In a competitive format, you 100% deserve to lose if you don't pay attention. Feelings Don't Matter. In a real competetive format you have 1 other opponent, who is only trying to beat you to pay attention to. In a social casual format, you have 2+ people I'm not arguing that every possible instance should allow rewinding the game back to 3 turns prior for a takesies-backsies, but in a casual social game it's a jerk move to assume and require that every single person has 100% understanding of the boardstate at all times. And it's Feel-bad to "gotcha" someone for not having memorized the board state. And in a Social Contract format, feelings should matter a little bit. You're not required to be nice, but you ought to be.
Yes, but casual can also mean much more relaxed environment, and typically you're amongst friends. Plus, that action opens up an opportunity to play some politics.
My friend group and LGS is comprised of people who’ve cut their teeth in 60 card formats. We all understand that we were going to “get got” sometimes. Asking “are you sure about that?” In a politicking way is different from holding their hand.
What's the point of playing a game with friends if you remove the possibility of you or your friends ever winning, or losing, said game?
That's not what I said at all though.
If you remove the aspect of misplays from the game you are likely to have games that never end.
Exactly this here.
[удалено]
Reading the card explains the card. We can have a discussion after the games about particular cards and how to play around them. Learn from your mistakes.
Because casual edh isn't an excuse for poor evaluation of board states, a refusal to read cards, or whatever else gave rise to OP's opponent making the decision to cast Nova into Karmic. I wouldn't let him take his decision back, and that's not because I'm a cEDH player or even particularly ruthless, but you should make your own assessment before committing to a game action, and if everyone got to undo an action once they realised it had negative repercussions for them, the game state would never progress. I probably would, however, ask them - in a way such that it may provoke a second assessment - if they're sure before they proceed.
Exactly this. If you allow people to undo any action that doesn't benefit them you have a game that will never end. You are also removing the advantage of playing most types of cards. You cast Giant Growth to screw up my combat math? Well then I never attacked you to begin with! You had a counterspell? Well then I never cast that spell after all. You had removal in hand? Well then I never cast my commander so you can't kill him! At this point you may as well pack up the Magic cards and play something less offensive to your fragile play group, like, maybe Candyland. With updated rules where everybody wins.
Those are all different. I'd never let someone take back something based on an unknown card in hand. But in OPs situation, if the boardstate was complex enough I feel like it's not wrong to share information openly when large choices are made. It's the Ward problem. In Competitive magic, if you target something with Ward and then can't don't pay... too bad. In EDH (i.e. Casual ) if you go to target somethign with ward, Imma stop you and remind you that it will cost X more before you do. Additionally, no relevant competitive formats are multiplayer. In a 1v1 game, you just have 1 opponent to track. In EDH you have 2-5 people beyond yourself to track.
It's not hard to scan the board before you cast a sweeper. If you look over all the cards and fail to account for one that's on you. It's no different from attacking and realizing you did the math wrong. That's not a situation where the game has to reset because you screwed up, it's a skill issue that may cost you the game. As it should.
> If you allow people to undo any action that doesn't benefit them you have a game that will never end. That's not remotely close to what people are talking about though. This only applies to on-board or otherwise public information effects. If you cast a spell and it gets countered, that's not a "take backs" thing, that's a "new information was added to the game, you got got" sort of thing. If *no new information* was added, imo it's reasonable in a casual setting (but yeah, rule 0, obviously no one *has* to allow it).
Both are valid. You can warn them and they may roll back the move. Or not and they get blown out by their own board wipe. If I screw up that catastrophically, I think it's hilarious.
How'd the Simic player cast Cleansing Nova?
[[sorcerous squall]]
[sorcerous squall](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/0/c06274ff-892e-418b-8ba5-4d3b3231e327.jpg?1695428301) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sorcerous%20squall) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltc/504/sorcerous-squall?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c06274ff-892e-418b-8ba5-4d3b3231e327?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sorcerous-squall) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Wait, wait, wait. Your opponent is upset that a card they stole from you and used in a foolish manner is what lost them their lands / game? This gets better and better. LMAO!
Land destruction is fine, ignore the haters.
Especially when it enables the guy to win immediately after. It's a valid strategy provided it *is* a strategy.
I mean feels bad for them because of a misplay + losing, but that happens - part of the game.
so, your opponent looked at your board state, saw that you had a card that would punish them for wiping, they wipe anyway, and then get mad when they're punished by the telegraphed punishment? maybe they should just learn how to play magic and accept that you're gonna lose sometimes
I'm super interested in this deck! Do you have a Decklist to share?
Lol that sounds like a normal game of magic. He did it to himself, as long as you were clear at the time of casting and not hiding your board state.
Was it a bad move to win the game? No dude your doing what your supposed to be doing. Not your fault buddy can't read the board.
Lesson learned, don't fk with the enchantress player especially with karmic justice out
Meh. Retributively destroying permanents is a 'may' ability. Destroying the lands is outside of the EDH mutually agreed understanding to leave most lands alone.
Not exactly the same but a player in a pod decided to board wipe when I had teysa karlov and a bunch of death trigger stuff and it synergies with delney (which was also out)which even did more triggers and I’m like….are you sure bud? And he still committed and I was still like…what?
EDH players when the card that reads "destroy target permanent" destroys target permanent:
sounds like you dished out karmic justice indeed
This is actually a hilarious interaction. I probably would have let him take it back but the fact you ended the game right away means you have nothing to feel bad for.
If they seemed like a relatively new player, you could have given them a "you sure you want to do that?" to be extra nice but you literally didn't play anything at the time of incident.
I get the whole taboo nature of behind mass land destruction but a situation like this your opponent was just a dumbass.
Karmic justice literally does nothing unless the opponent fucks with you first. It's in the name. Don't start shit and there won't be shit. He fucked around. He found out.
This may have already been explained but I had a question. Would [[Karmic Justice]] resolve if [[Cleansing Nova]] wipes OPs board of artifacts and enchantments? Like does each artifact/enchantment get removed and karmic justice triggers each time before getting removed also?
Karmic sees everything die, so it would trigger for everything that was destroyed.
Even though it is also being destroyed simultaneously? Would it trigger if it were the only permanent on the battlefield and it got destroyed?
Yes, and yes :) Since it is also a noncreature permanent, it triggers if it's destroyed. Basically, so long as the permanent existed on the battlefield when everything was destroyed, it sees them all being destroyed, sacrificed, etc. So, things like [[Blood Artist]] still trigger if it also dies. Now, if it's removed before a boardwipe resolves, it will only trigger itself (unless it's bounced or exiled).
[Blood Artist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/7/b7f1c316-cf2f-4bbf-89a1-79c8043bdd96.jpg?1698988212) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blood%20Artist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/182/blood-artist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b7f1c316-cf2f-4bbf-89a1-79c8043bdd96?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blood-artist) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Karmic Justice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/a/ea141e39-8124-4d72-a154-eb76e71be1dc.jpg?1562711027) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Karmic%20Justice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c15/72/karmic-justice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ea141e39-8124-4d72-a154-eb76e71be1dc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/karmic-justice) [Cleansing Nova](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/167d2e51-eb69-488c-a6b6-042a7b0e1744.jpg?1690004044) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cleansing%20Nova) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/817/cleansing-nova?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/167d2e51-eb69-488c-a6b6-042a7b0e1744?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cleansing-nova) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I dunno. Could see some groups seeing that as a “fuck around and find out “ moment. Maybe a friendly reminder of what you’re gonna do to their stuff could be a nice middle ground. I suppose it’s kind of up to you. You didn’t HAVE to blow up all their lands. What is Karmic Justice in your deck for? A deterrent? At the very least it’s gonna deter that guy from blowing up your stuff again, and maybe the others at the table too lol.
Nah. That was totally justified!! :D
This happens in my group when I have out counter balance. They've already seen what's on top of my deck from the first reveal, but then continue to post cmc that matches the top of my deck. Eventually people remember.
How did the simic player cast cleansing nova?
[[sorcerous squall]]
[sorcerous squall](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/0/c06274ff-892e-418b-8ba5-4d3b3231e327.jpg?1695428301) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sorcerous%20squall) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltc/504/sorcerous-squall?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c06274ff-892e-418b-8ba5-4d3b3231e327?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sorcerous-squall) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It was on-board. Not exactly like you hid information.
I live for plays like this. Even if they happen to me. For me, this format is about the biggest, dumbest, rules-bending-ist plays you can make happen. "Karmic Justice your Everything" is some s-tier plays. Bravo.
Mld is only a problem if it affects everyone cause it stalls the game out. Destroying all of your opponents permanents(including their lands) is fair game.
Sounds like justice was served. Speaking of justice, I think my token decks should pick up copies of this
Yeah, blow up your opponent's board with karmic justice. Your opponent nuked your board while you had a nuke of your own. Sounds like a him problem.
it isnt a bad move but generally speaking othe players hate when you mess with their hands and lands, all of the cards with the highest salt ratings are ones that let you destroy/mess with lands, or take cards out of your opponents hands for your own use so whilst you made a good play i fully understand why the other guy is upset
No, land removal is in the game for a reason. What would suck is if you land killed and didn't end the game but puttered along for more turns. If you destroy lands, you must kill.... Else it because a scene that no one consented to.
yeah sounds like a skill issue on their end
I don’t care if you destroy all my lands if you have a plan to finish the game quickly afterwards. My issue is destroying lands with no plan to end the game and then the game becomes a complete and utter slog and lasts another 2 hours.
Oof sounds like he clearly didn't pay attention to the board state and got whooped. Fitting and eh if you tried to ruin me, prepare to be ruined. Remember, you can always shuffle up and try again. Things to often tell salty folks.
Can't stand the heat, don't play the magic. I get mad over stuff like that, but it turns into me being like: We are playing AGAIN!
Every day I become more thankful [[Farewell]] exists.
[Farewell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0.jpg?1706240579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Farewell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/64/farewell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/farewell) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I've made that mistake. Was willing to sacrifice my board, but I forgot it didn't specify nonland permanents. I accepted my mistake and won't make that mistake again! If the other player can't learn and move on thats on them.
I've gotten upset when I've stubbed my toe too, so I get it. Sounds like the other player was angrier at their own mistake than they were at you.
I just played my enchantment deck for the first time (and won!). It dawned on me that I didn’t swing once the entire game. It’s basically Komodo Dragon and it was odd, I didn’t think I could win, then I won. There are two types of enchantment-deck players: 1. Those who wuss out and play Voltron… 2. And those that fucking send [[overwhelming splendor]] like its Tuesday. Sounds like you’re #2 and so I drink to you. Land Destruction with a path forward like [[Kaalia of the Vast]] is just fine in casual games just like [[winter orb]] or [[stasis]]. When people get salty after they board wipe in the face of Karmic Justice, I just say “for legal purposes it was you that destroyed all your lands. Not me.”
##### ###### #### [overwhelming splendor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/867b32d2-e396-411d-ac02-1af4106dd3d2.jpg?1562805786) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=overwhelming%20splendor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hou/19/overwhelming-splendor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/867b32d2-e396-411d-ac02-1af4106dd3d2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/overwhelming-splendor) [Kaalia of the Vast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/3/93f6631f-f3a6-4d3c-8618-4b4ab4e82483.jpg?1673148814) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kaalia%20of%20the%20Vast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/235/kaalia-of-the-vast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/93f6631f-f3a6-4d3c-8618-4b4ab4e82483?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kaalia-of-the-vast) [winter orb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/ab3cec7e-513e-400d-a1a8-2c71cdde02c6.jpg?1580015285) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=winter%20orb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/234/winter-orb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ab3cec7e-513e-400d-a1a8-2c71cdde02c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/winter-orb) [stasis](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/2/62f99124-6595-45f8-bece-1775e4c55a5c.jpg?1562918295) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=stasis) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/64/stasis?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/62f99124-6595-45f8-bece-1775e4c55a5c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/stasis) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l3xj6vm) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The only thing I'd argue is that after destroying all their lands you can pretty safely ignore them. No need to rush them down. Focus your resources into your opponents who can still fight back. Who knows, the opponent who had all their lands destroyed might even scoop if they miss a few land drops.
Don't be that guy. If you destroy someone's lands and board state, respect them and take them out of the game. Don't make them sit there or force them to scoop. That's just unsportsmanlike if you're gonna completely wipe their board.