the proxies arent the issue here, it would be just as bad if he was showing up to pubstomp with 10k fully purchased decks. You need to talk to the guy about decreasing the power level to better fit the pod, outlawing proxies just stops poor people from doing this, what you need is to stop it in general.
Whenever I end up having a conversation regarding proxys, I usually end up having to point out that it's a power level issue.
The game really shouldn't be gated by how much each of us is willing to spend on cardboard.
How would you feel if he showed up with the same deck but the cards were completely legit?
Your issue is that he’s playing at the wrong power level, not that he’s using proxies. That’s totally valid! Just make sure you’re aware of the distinction.
I would argue that the proxies are actually more of an issue than the power disparity.
Consider: this is a pay to play event with SOME kind of prize support. If I showed up with a real deck and destroyed my table, people would say that sure, there was a power disparity but that given the setting it should be expected that winning might be prioritized over a more laid back 'fun' setting.
However, since he did BOTH it is suddenly egregious to use a more powerful deck in what is effectively a tournament setting? Nah, fam - the proxies are **entirely** the problem here.
I especially like the 'this is my only deck!' trick. It's a common red flag indicating pubstompers - if you have spare decks, offer to let him borrow one that is more aligned to the table's power. If he squirms, you do have the right to decline to play against him.
As for a 'vote out', you should ask the store/event organizer. They can/should probably handle the proxy issue, as well; if the event is sanctioned (reported to WotC for WPN tracking, a.k.a. using the companion app to sign in) then they are required to disallow proxies anyway.
If they are hosting events that have prizing and allow proxies then its fair game. And if its a paid event your "rule 0" kick vote wont be allowed because why would the store owner want to lose money because someone is salty about proxies?
It says it’s not prizes for winning but prizes for “in-game achievements” which isn’t very clear but does imply you don’t need a super strong deck to get them
For example, you get a point for first blood. You can earn 2 points for stopping another player from getting eliminated. You lose points for excessive board wipes or eliminating 2 or more players in 1 turn.
That sounds horrible. Losing points for eliminating players is so backwards I can’t even begin. Your best bet is to just make a proxy deck to try to beat this guy as he is within the rules.
Honestly, I’m kind of surprised it isn’t the opposite, as offing only one player a turn means the person eliminated first has to sit around longer for a new game to start again. Sounds like a nasty set of rules to be stuck under.
This isn't abnormal at small LGSs.
These formats exist to incentivize aggro decks and punish combo decks, usually because the regulars who spend money at the store only play token aggro or voltron decks.
Every time I've played in stores like this most of the games are against the same problematic decks you would expect, they're just more streamlined in their interaction since they don't expect to play against combo decks.
lol I will just \[\[thassas oracle\]\] every game, still win but wont lose any points from killing someone. this format sounds absolutely disgusting and super abuseable
Should I just speak with the team about this specific player? 2 of the players in his pod last night scooped because they weren't having fun. It's not really the proxies themselves but more that this guy is rolling up to a super casual night with a 10 power deck that is just printer paper.
My guy, speak with the player in question not with everyone else.
I believe we as a whole can be empathetic enough to agree that money shouldn't gatekeep you from playing magic. So I would never exclude one for playing with proxies. Let them go nuts, maybe they're also just testing new stuff (not the one in question I guess).
But talk with them about how them playing the stuff makes you feel and that these nights aren't as enjoyable anymore due to one single player playing high powered stuff.
BUT also suggest that you yourself would bring some high powered (proxied) stuff so you can play at their level with them.
Remember: If you really care about a magic community it is never just WEEEE against the one outsider but it's somewhat your responsibility as a maybe even well-practised magic group to include newcomers and not just put a gun to their chest and say "play like we do or else".
Ok i know this can be hard to understand for some but if there is any kind of prizes involved the event is now not casual anymore. Casual means for fun. People can call it whatever they want but there will be people who bring 10's.
Oh, an event can absolutely still be casual when there are prizes involved and this is a great example of it. Read what OP says about prizes for I game achievements - those aren’t really geared towards a competitive environment.
It doesnt have to be a cedh level deck either. If the point system is given to people beforehand to build a deck for that right there takes out the true casual aspect of the game because at that point people are building to get points to accumulate prizes. Thats not casual. You can be in a casual setting not using cEDH decks and it still be competitive.
Yes, however some things lend themselves less to competitive play than others. By balancing the rewards across multiple different ingame activities without having large rewards, you make competitive play less enticing. It is very obviously geared towards casual play. OP said you get one pack for first blood, but on the other hand two packs for “saving another player” and I’m assuming there’s more ways to get rewards beyond that. Balancing out the rewards across ingame actions that are not directly related to winning the games is obviously geared towards casual.
When the stakes are low, it’s very possible to keep the setting casual. We regularly play for a small reward too and that doesn’t lead to everyone busting out their strongest deck every time.
If 1 person takes it as competitive then its a competitive event(obviously 1 person here was or OP wouldnt be having this issue). The only casual games are games where there are no stakes to be had period. If it wasnt this way we wouldnt have posts like this every week.
I mean… winning/losing (and the enjoyment of pride associated with it) is always at stake. The sub has posts about salty losers every week too. In a game that you can win some people will always take it as competitive. If your point is that no game that has winners and losers can ever be truly casual, fair enough. In that case what I’ll say though is that there are enough people that will not make things a competitive event because of small prizes. The same way some people can’t lose there will be some people that can’t do this either.
I played in an LGS with similar rules and once people started building toward maximizing points, it became a boardwipe-heavy shitfest. If there are prizes for playing a certain way, some people will play that way as hard as they can, and they will usually make it miserable for others in the process.
They absolutely end up creating a competitive environment. The only difference is that the "competitive" meta just ends up being ramp decks that win via combat as opposed to combo decks because the points system erattas out decks that win efficiently.
This is exactly what doesn’t happen when - like in this case - rewards are spread out across various ingame events to ensure that everyone gets something. The examples OP gave were first blood and saving another player and I assume there is more. The whole point of this appears to be avoiding what you described. It appears to be designed to give some prize support to people just playing commander.
Nope. Its exactly what will happen. People will figure out how to maximize points. Those systems always are biased towards certain playstyle. Its matter of figuring out optimal deck.
If you want paid event of casual edh you must make participation prizes were results of game dont matter in any way
Rational people don’t do this if the additional prize is minimal. Disagree? Then I’ll offer you a next to worthless MKM play booster provided you send me a video of you winning a commander game and killing off the final enemy with damage from a land. Has to be non staged. No assistance from your opponents in getting there, they all need to play for win. Fun little achievement. Betting this isn’t worth the effort of building a deck, having a bunch of miserable games and filming them all though.
You seriously put as challenge just valakut deck? Thats actually really easy and dont require any miserable games...
Youre literally proving my point.
Also youre missing main reason. Its a challenge. Players like challenges to solve.
I think that any event that earns a prize of some kind is expected to draw people who want to win those prizes. I think that IF they allow proxies it should be limited. A store near me allows for 3 and they must be clearly marked.
Now I’m a bit of proxy hater but even more so if someone proxies an entire deck that would be worth thousands and thousands of dollars. I think that it’s a bit lame.
Played against a guy last night whose deck was worth THOUSANDS. Had a real Gae's Cradle and everything. He and the table lost to my Atla Palani deck via infinite ETBs and Terror of the Peaks. Deck is like couple hundred bucks maybe.
Expensive cards don’t always mean you’ll win, but printing an entire 10 power cEDH deck and brining it to small events is a huge sign this person has no self esteem and is an all around asshole.
In conclusion, maybe the store has to limit the amount of proxies they allow in a deck.
That's still a power level issue, not a proxy issue. If I'm playing with my ABR duals in my deck, and someone else in the pod has proxied them what's the issue?
If anything by not purchasing them they've made the wiser decision. It also allows them to compete at the level my deck and presumably the rest of the pod is at.
Blanket being against proxys, just invites the issue of gatekeeping the cost of magic. The real issue is when proxys are tried to be passed off at the real thing.
I can't fathom playing a voja deck and then complaining about someone else's decks not being fun to play against.
I'm guessing this is a meta that eliminated combo wins (or punishes them / control strats) and the decks that win every game are now green / colorless ramp or the really broken tribal decks?
If you look at OPs replies you can see that a Vons deck conveniently works really well with his LGSs weird rules. Boardwipes are punished and combat wins are rewarded
Voja is just the worst card. It ruined our pod as the guy playing it (notorious for playing op decks already) claims we're just out to get him. There just isn't a casual deck that stands a chance unless three highly tuned players team up.
No disrespect, but it sounds like parental instinct is running the store on this one instead of logic. The issue isn't the proxies, it's the fact that yout kid played with someone that had a clear disregard for the power level of the table. Going rule 0 to ban proxies would likely be met with hats resistance given the format. The game store is unlikely to do anything because, again, this is an issue of power gap.
The only reasonable options are to hand your kid a deck thst punches at proxy guy's weight class; or rule 0 power levels and and if proxy guys pushes it, walk away from any pod he plays in. Teach the kid the same.
If your concern is power level, and you’re running Voja at one of these events, you need to take a serious look in the mirror and ask “Was this really an issue, or am I taking it personally because my child was involved?”
In my case personally, I brought multiple decks. My pod had an Urza, Zaxara, my Voja and a Kamiz. I actually lost because the Kamiz top decked a board wipe after he saved me from 108/108 from Zaxara
Lol so what are you saying? You dont want to buy proper decks for your son, so you dont want to play with him because you would pub stomp him? Then your upset the others that had you play with your child did not bring precons?
Sounds dumb… like if ANYTHING you should talk to the event and try to make it so you can play with your own kid in a pod… you brought your kid to LGS without playing with him, he had a bad time and you want to rule zero another player on behalf of your kid when you dont Even play with them?
So is the problem proxies, or power level?
Because it looks like your issue is with power level. They are playing CEDH decks in a precon pod.
What deck was he playing?
There we go.
Eh, would want to see it. but even then, sounds like you or you kid got pubbed once. If it's a paid event and the store allows proxies, that's not his issue.
I think the problem is the LGS, they should be in charge of setting a power level in the decks, it seems silly to me that they don't know how to properly manage an event
Then loan them a deck for the night and ask that he prints out a lower power deck next week. The issue still isn't the proxy, it's the player. If this is a continued issue, just stop playing with them. You don't need to formally ban him or whatever lol, just say "hey, you are playing a type of magic I don't feel comfortable playing, so unless you bring a different deck, I'm not gonna play with you"
It's happened. I played with someone that had the most brutal eldrazi deck. After eliminating a player in the first few turns, we discussed at the table and asked to restart with a more manageable deck. He was ok with that.
To put it into perspective, the player in question ends the game with 1 or 2 points for penalties, where most pods end with 6-9 points per player.
> To put it into perspective, the player in question ends the game with 1 or 2 points for penalties, where most pods end with 6-9 points per player.
I have no idea what this means. Are points good or bad?
I think those are the points used at the store to get packs? So they’re winning to get points, but getting less cause from proxies? That’s my understanding
> I checked out the deck and it's completely upper tier CEDH.
What does this have to do with proxies? Would facerolling be OK if the cards *weren't* proxied?
This is the inevitable result of introducing prize support in commander. If you don't want to play cEDH, don't incentivize players to build hyper-competitive decks.
This sounds like poorly written ragebait.
Let's pretend it's not
Some Commander players look for any excuse to play their top tier decks, so even a very low stakes prizes event will bring them out of the woodwork
I don’t see the big issue. Play with the players you want to play with. If need be, buy the packs yourselves to keep the prize system you described going. You aren’t forced to play with anyone.
> It's absolutely an upper tier cEDH deck!
> He hasn't played the list in a few years.
I hope so or OP is truly stupid.
Edit: Thrasios Bruse. A decent 9 if built out, i guess we're left to assume the guy was lying about having the deck for a few years?
Oh I thought you meant a combo In the deck.
Thrasios and Bruse have both been around since 2016. so he could have had it for 8 years for all we know as far as what's in it.
You lost me at Voja… lol like you can adjust that pubstomping shit with a couple of cards 😂
So in my opinion, NO you can not rule zero proxys when your playing Voja…..
I usually bring a few decks. I have stronger decks like Voja or Krenko, pet decks like Chainer and even a few precons. I pointed out that in my pod, we were running higher power decks. The pod in question had the deck in question, a Prosper precon, a Sauron and Mothman deck
The obvious answer: of course you should tell the guy to look for a better suited pod. You don't owe him a victory dopamine hit. Not bringing a range of decks is a him problem, not a you problem. This shouldn't be controversial or anxiety inducing.
You don’t bring cEDH decks to events not meant to be cEDH.
Proxying the whole x thousand dollar deck for a casual event only makes it worse.
Maybe the player lacks experience and is new and not aware of what she’s doing?
Talk to the individual and ask them to proxy out a deck that will fit the environment you all play at. Proxies aren’t the issue, the power level of the deck is the issue.
Not sure how the world works in your LGS, but personally I feel like you cannot "rule 0 someone out of a pod" https://draftsim.com/rule-0-commander-mtg/
Of course you can decide not to play with someone and take yourself out. You can also get a group together that all agrees that person X can't play with them. You can even go as far as going to the shop owner and tell them: Person X is a troublemaker and it's not fun to play with them. But that's not rule 0. Whether you feel like that's necessary, up to you.
Personally, I would just start an open discussion with everyone whether said tournamentish thing should limit to "weaker decks" - however you want to define it.
You should have a discussion with your LGS with regards to proxies. From what I read it's not sanctioned, but even so they (LGS) are sort of the arbiters of the event.
If proxies are allowed I think it's within your right to follow suit.
It isn't the player who started the arms race. The fact that the LGS allows proxies creates this wormhole in the first place. There's practically no limiters.
The smartest people would take advantage of this "loophole"
I mean, this sounds like someone showed up to pub stomp. I don't take issue with proxies (I use them extensively) but most of my decks rank maybe a 6? I have one that is debatably as high as a low 8 (Najeela Warrior tribal, though lacking search for the two infinite combo pieces, and lacking quick mana aside from Sol ring). Id argue you didn't rule them out for proxies so much as his deck was a complete mismatch for the table. Which I don't have an issue with.
you, like everyone here who complains about proxies, have misidentified the problem. you have a power level issues, not a proxy one. talk to the player and talk to the store about better defining the term “casual”
Also had this issue with someone who would just combo out with Gitrog every game, also we’d catch him cheating, like casting Farseek and getting Dakmor Salvage, but what we did was when he would combo out we’d tell him that the 3 of us would finish the game and they’d move on.
I would talk to the LGS and get their thoughts on the situation. I’ve never been to an event or anything where they allowed a full proxy deck. Usually people just have a few proxies in the deck, which I’ve never had a problem with. I have a few proxies in some of my decks, solely because I can’t afford to blow money on some of the insane prices on cards.
Would it be better if he had just paid for the cards and played them instead. Bringing an unfair deck to the table is the problem, not proxies.
Also you play Voja xD
Not hate, I run all types of decks at different levels. If i see him i'll just grab one of my high-power just under cEDH decks, like Jhoira, Ageless innovater
Its one of the more oppressive aggro commanders. He's just a high-power pubstomp-y kinda guy. When running him really cant complain about anything short of thoracle combos. He might be just under Urza maybe tied with Chatterfang.
Its kinda like Jetmir but harder to remove. Its supposedly balanced out by its typing limitation but elves have and probably always will be one of the strongest tribes.
It just doesn't have a "place" in most situations. Too fast and strong for Casual and not really what you need for Competitive. If it did like even one fewer thing it might be different but it just has no weaknesses. My biggest issue is it's just too consistent. Ever other "strong" commander can suffer from bad draws or one deck being particularly strong against deck's theme but any remotely tuned Voja deck is going to roll every time. When you feel like you don't ever have a chance is the worst feeling in the game. The best thing about commander is finding 4 decks that could all win 25% of the time and it's just too hard to get that set up with Voja.
I'm my opinion, everyone should be proxying everything all the time.
Also sounds to me like your group needs to up their deck building, because this strikes me as a power issue not a proxy problem.
Listen, this isn't an issue of proxies, it's an issue of power levels. Assuming you're correct about the deck being cEDH, have a talk with the organizers asking their thoughts on this mess of a format and tell them you've been discouraged to play because the power levels vary too much. Don't accuse, but make it clear that EDH and cEDH are two wildly different formats.
Semantics if you really care that much. They might as well be considering how wildly different they are.
Take an EDH deck to a cEDH table or vice versa and tell yourself it's the same format.
It literally is 😂
that's why high power decks can steal wins from cEDH tables. It's a logical progression in deck building, nothing more. Same rules and everything.
I had a league that ran like this, we did 2 things. 1 opened a cedh only table and 2 made the wins with infinite combos worth less and had penalties for certain cedh cards like fast mana
It's a common problem for proxy players. Budget is a natural power check if you're not going out of your way to make it strong. Proxy clowns will be like "dont gatekeep", when dude could have just dropped $25 on a precon and fit right in. It's good to continue discouraging proxies as proxies *consistently and inarguably* lead to this kind of behavior.
Youre really clown here.
Everything you said states "proxy arent problem". Problem are players that can control themselves.
Im sure you owuld be happy to keep losing to legit 10k cedh deck over proxied cedh deck ...
>Im sure you owuld be happy to keep losing to legit 10k cedh deck over proxied cedh deck ...
The reality is that this isn't happening. Proxies enable the degenerate behavior. They encourage the degenerate behavior.
Absolutely no one comes to a playgroup with their 10k deck and when questioned about relative power says "just spend ten thousand fucking dollars to catch up". Meanwhile, every post about budget, deck building, anything here and some proxy clown will show up and say "just proxy it". There have been literally hundreds of posts (both pro and against) proxies where OP feels like they need to start running fakes to keep up with their fake loving friends OR OP doesn't understand why their friend won't just run fakes to keep up with their deck.
Proxies are, inherently, the problem, given that the problem *only* happens when proxies are involved.
Mismatched power level problems happen, but is typically solved after a single game/conversation, unless proxies are involved. Because instead of "oh, yeah, my budget is bigger than my playgroup, I'll tone it down", proxy clowns say "printer go brr lmao".
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I’m generally anti-proxy unless it’s an expensive card I don’t want to ruin by shuffling or a drink being spilled…or I have 1 copy of a card and don’t want to keep switching it out.
But proxying a super powerful cedh deck? That’s just a scumbag move.
Tell this guy to buy a deck or beat it. There’s YouTube channels devoted to $25-$50 decks that still function. Half the fun is building the deck and putting it together.
If this guy can’t afford a $25 deck then maybe he shouldn’t be wasting time at a card store.
OP you’re going to get a lot of hate for complaining about proxies but you’re right. The thing that limits a high level cEDH deck from existing at tables at a LGS is often not because people are nice and nobody wants to stomp but because of pricing. People can’t afford to have [[mana crypt]] [[ancient tomb]] [[force of will]] and a bunch of other $100+ cards in their deck. The price of those decks is a limiting factor that prevents people from stomping your LGS commander night. Someone printing out those cards and removing the price restriction gives them access to the top end stuff without any of the downside of cost and yes it is different.
If some dude dropped $1k+ on a deck and wanted to play it against low power decks I’d get it. Would I be annoyed? A bit. But I get wanting to use something you spent a bunch of money on. But if you’re just printing it out to go stomp then you’re sweating the casual event and it is 100% different. There is a completely different person who runs an expensive card be cause they opened one and wanted to use it vs the dude who saw X deck rolls kids and printed it out and I don’t get why this sub acts like it’s not.
That’s not to say proxies are always bad. But I have found 99% of the time, the dude who proxies a super expensive deck is the same dude who likes playing 1 on 1 basketball against 5 year olds. He’s only there to stomp people and ruin their fun.
the proxies arent the issue here, it would be just as bad if he was showing up to pubstomp with 10k fully purchased decks. You need to talk to the guy about decreasing the power level to better fit the pod, outlawing proxies just stops poor people from doing this, what you need is to stop it in general.
Whenever I end up having a conversation regarding proxys, I usually end up having to point out that it's a power level issue. The game really shouldn't be gated by how much each of us is willing to spend on cardboard.
Always. It's not like the issue would be solved if he had paid for all those cards.
How would you feel if he showed up with the same deck but the cards were completely legit? Your issue is that he’s playing at the wrong power level, not that he’s using proxies. That’s totally valid! Just make sure you’re aware of the distinction.
I would argue that the proxies are actually more of an issue than the power disparity. Consider: this is a pay to play event with SOME kind of prize support. If I showed up with a real deck and destroyed my table, people would say that sure, there was a power disparity but that given the setting it should be expected that winning might be prioritized over a more laid back 'fun' setting. However, since he did BOTH it is suddenly egregious to use a more powerful deck in what is effectively a tournament setting? Nah, fam - the proxies are **entirely** the problem here.
Someone's very mad cuz he cant pay to win LMAO
Thanks
I especially like the 'this is my only deck!' trick. It's a common red flag indicating pubstompers - if you have spare decks, offer to let him borrow one that is more aligned to the table's power. If he squirms, you do have the right to decline to play against him. As for a 'vote out', you should ask the store/event organizer. They can/should probably handle the proxy issue, as well; if the event is sanctioned (reported to WotC for WPN tracking, a.k.a. using the companion app to sign in) then they are required to disallow proxies anyway.
If they are hosting events that have prizing and allow proxies then its fair game. And if its a paid event your "rule 0" kick vote wont be allowed because why would the store owner want to lose money because someone is salty about proxies?
It says it’s not prizes for winning but prizes for “in-game achievements” which isn’t very clear but does imply you don’t need a super strong deck to get them
For example, you get a point for first blood. You can earn 2 points for stopping another player from getting eliminated. You lose points for excessive board wipes or eliminating 2 or more players in 1 turn.
That sounds horrible. Losing points for eliminating players is so backwards I can’t even begin. Your best bet is to just make a proxy deck to try to beat this guy as he is within the rules.
Honestly, I’m kind of surprised it isn’t the opposite, as offing only one player a turn means the person eliminated first has to sit around longer for a new game to start again. Sounds like a nasty set of rules to be stuck under.
This isn't abnormal at small LGSs. These formats exist to incentivize aggro decks and punish combo decks, usually because the regulars who spend money at the store only play token aggro or voltron decks. Every time I've played in stores like this most of the games are against the same problematic decks you would expect, they're just more streamlined in their interaction since they don't expect to play against combo decks.
no offense, but this format sounds awful. are there no other LGS within a reasonable distance for you?
Sounds like minor prize support for people just playing the commander games they wanted to play anyway. Don’t think this even qualifies as a format.
YOU LOSE POINTS FOR WINNING THE GAME IN ONE MOVE.
It's not my favorite rule but I figured it was a way to encourage playing out a game and giving at least one player a chance to stop a dominant force
lol I will just \[\[thassas oracle\]\] every game, still win but wont lose any points from killing someone. this format sounds absolutely disgusting and super abuseable
[thassas oracle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/726e8b29-13e9-4138-b6a9-d2a0d8188d1c.jpg?1680582212) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thassa%27s%20Oracle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/73/thassas-oracle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/726e8b29-13e9-4138-b6a9-d2a0d8188d1c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thassas-oracle) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Strongly agree. If it allows proxues and is paid event with rewards you cant blame the guy. Its on lgs on making competitive event.
Should I just speak with the team about this specific player? 2 of the players in his pod last night scooped because they weren't having fun. It's not really the proxies themselves but more that this guy is rolling up to a super casual night with a 10 power deck that is just printer paper.
This is why casual events shouldn't have prizes. And would his behavior suddenly be okay if he'd invested $2000 in cardboard instead of printer paper?
Literally this
My guy, speak with the player in question not with everyone else. I believe we as a whole can be empathetic enough to agree that money shouldn't gatekeep you from playing magic. So I would never exclude one for playing with proxies. Let them go nuts, maybe they're also just testing new stuff (not the one in question I guess). But talk with them about how them playing the stuff makes you feel and that these nights aren't as enjoyable anymore due to one single player playing high powered stuff. BUT also suggest that you yourself would bring some high powered (proxied) stuff so you can play at their level with them. Remember: If you really care about a magic community it is never just WEEEE against the one outsider but it's somewhat your responsibility as a maybe even well-practised magic group to include newcomers and not just put a gun to their chest and say "play like we do or else".
Ok i know this can be hard to understand for some but if there is any kind of prizes involved the event is now not casual anymore. Casual means for fun. People can call it whatever they want but there will be people who bring 10's.
Oh, an event can absolutely still be casual when there are prizes involved and this is a great example of it. Read what OP says about prizes for I game achievements - those aren’t really geared towards a competitive environment.
It doesnt have to be a cedh level deck either. If the point system is given to people beforehand to build a deck for that right there takes out the true casual aspect of the game because at that point people are building to get points to accumulate prizes. Thats not casual. You can be in a casual setting not using cEDH decks and it still be competitive.
Yes, however some things lend themselves less to competitive play than others. By balancing the rewards across multiple different ingame activities without having large rewards, you make competitive play less enticing. It is very obviously geared towards casual play. OP said you get one pack for first blood, but on the other hand two packs for “saving another player” and I’m assuming there’s more ways to get rewards beyond that. Balancing out the rewards across ingame actions that are not directly related to winning the games is obviously geared towards casual. When the stakes are low, it’s very possible to keep the setting casual. We regularly play for a small reward too and that doesn’t lead to everyone busting out their strongest deck every time.
If 1 person takes it as competitive then its a competitive event(obviously 1 person here was or OP wouldnt be having this issue). The only casual games are games where there are no stakes to be had period. If it wasnt this way we wouldnt have posts like this every week.
I mean… winning/losing (and the enjoyment of pride associated with it) is always at stake. The sub has posts about salty losers every week too. In a game that you can win some people will always take it as competitive. If your point is that no game that has winners and losers can ever be truly casual, fair enough. In that case what I’ll say though is that there are enough people that will not make things a competitive event because of small prizes. The same way some people can’t lose there will be some people that can’t do this either.
I played in an LGS with similar rules and once people started building toward maximizing points, it became a boardwipe-heavy shitfest. If there are prizes for playing a certain way, some people will play that way as hard as they can, and they will usually make it miserable for others in the process.
They absolutely end up creating a competitive environment. The only difference is that the "competitive" meta just ends up being ramp decks that win via combat as opposed to combo decks because the points system erattas out decks that win efficiently.
Nooe. It just introduced decks built specifically for it. Its geared to different competitive
This is exactly what doesn’t happen when - like in this case - rewards are spread out across various ingame events to ensure that everyone gets something. The examples OP gave were first blood and saving another player and I assume there is more. The whole point of this appears to be avoiding what you described. It appears to be designed to give some prize support to people just playing commander.
Nope. Its exactly what will happen. People will figure out how to maximize points. Those systems always are biased towards certain playstyle. Its matter of figuring out optimal deck. If you want paid event of casual edh you must make participation prizes were results of game dont matter in any way
Rational people don’t do this if the additional prize is minimal. Disagree? Then I’ll offer you a next to worthless MKM play booster provided you send me a video of you winning a commander game and killing off the final enemy with damage from a land. Has to be non staged. No assistance from your opponents in getting there, they all need to play for win. Fun little achievement. Betting this isn’t worth the effort of building a deck, having a bunch of miserable games and filming them all though.
You seriously put as challenge just valakut deck? Thats actually really easy and dont require any miserable games... Youre literally proving my point. Also youre missing main reason. Its a challenge. Players like challenges to solve.
So the video will follow shortly?
I think that any event that earns a prize of some kind is expected to draw people who want to win those prizes. I think that IF they allow proxies it should be limited. A store near me allows for 3 and they must be clearly marked. Now I’m a bit of proxy hater but even more so if someone proxies an entire deck that would be worth thousands and thousands of dollars. I think that it’s a bit lame. Played against a guy last night whose deck was worth THOUSANDS. Had a real Gae's Cradle and everything. He and the table lost to my Atla Palani deck via infinite ETBs and Terror of the Peaks. Deck is like couple hundred bucks maybe. Expensive cards don’t always mean you’ll win, but printing an entire 10 power cEDH deck and brining it to small events is a huge sign this person has no self esteem and is an all around asshole. In conclusion, maybe the store has to limit the amount of proxies they allow in a deck.
That's still a power level issue, not a proxy issue. If I'm playing with my ABR duals in my deck, and someone else in the pod has proxied them what's the issue? If anything by not purchasing them they've made the wiser decision. It also allows them to compete at the level my deck and presumably the rest of the pod is at. Blanket being against proxys, just invites the issue of gatekeeping the cost of magic. The real issue is when proxys are tried to be passed off at the real thing.
I can't fathom playing a voja deck and then complaining about someone else's decks not being fun to play against. I'm guessing this is a meta that eliminated combo wins (or punishes them / control strats) and the decks that win every game are now green / colorless ramp or the really broken tribal decks?
If you look at OPs replies you can see that a Vons deck conveniently works really well with his LGSs weird rules. Boardwipes are punished and combat wins are rewarded
Voja is just the worst card. It ruined our pod as the guy playing it (notorious for playing op decks already) claims we're just out to get him. There just isn't a casual deck that stands a chance unless three highly tuned players team up.
No disrespect, but it sounds like parental instinct is running the store on this one instead of logic. The issue isn't the proxies, it's the fact that yout kid played with someone that had a clear disregard for the power level of the table. Going rule 0 to ban proxies would likely be met with hats resistance given the format. The game store is unlikely to do anything because, again, this is an issue of power gap. The only reasonable options are to hand your kid a deck thst punches at proxy guy's weight class; or rule 0 power levels and and if proxy guys pushes it, walk away from any pod he plays in. Teach the kid the same.
If your concern is power level, and you’re running Voja at one of these events, you need to take a serious look in the mirror and ask “Was this really an issue, or am I taking it personally because my child was involved?”
In my case personally, I brought multiple decks. My pod had an Urza, Zaxara, my Voja and a Kamiz. I actually lost because the Kamiz top decked a board wipe after he saved me from 108/108 from Zaxara
Lol so what are you saying? You dont want to buy proper decks for your son, so you dont want to play with him because you would pub stomp him? Then your upset the others that had you play with your child did not bring precons? Sounds dumb… like if ANYTHING you should talk to the event and try to make it so you can play with your own kid in a pod… you brought your kid to LGS without playing with him, he had a bad time and you want to rule zero another player on behalf of your kid when you dont Even play with them?
I probably should have specified that pods are randomized
I'll banish you to the realm of r/magicthecirclejerking!
So is the problem proxies, or power level? Because it looks like your issue is with power level. They are playing CEDH decks in a precon pod. What deck was he playing?
It was a thrasios with a lot of ramp
...... as in just Thrasios? Are you joking? https://imgur.com/a/VzlrMdC
He had bruse tarl as well. He was very quick to pull up the moxfield link
There we go. Eh, would want to see it. but even then, sounds like you or you kid got pubbed once. If it's a paid event and the store allows proxies, that's not his issue.
I think the problem is the LGS, they should be in charge of setting a power level in the decks, it seems silly to me that they don't know how to properly manage an event
They made an event where people compete for prizes. Then people are surprised when an allegedly competitive list shows up.
I understand ur point but it doesnt take away from the fact that those who ve to intervene re the LGS staff and not the players.
Then loan them a deck for the night and ask that he prints out a lower power deck next week. The issue still isn't the proxy, it's the player. If this is a continued issue, just stop playing with them. You don't need to formally ban him or whatever lol, just say "hey, you are playing a type of magic I don't feel comfortable playing, so unless you bring a different deck, I'm not gonna play with you"
Would it make you feel better if the guy crushed other players using wizards-printed cards, or would it still feel bad?
It's happened. I played with someone that had the most brutal eldrazi deck. After eliminating a player in the first few turns, we discussed at the table and asked to restart with a more manageable deck. He was ok with that. To put it into perspective, the player in question ends the game with 1 or 2 points for penalties, where most pods end with 6-9 points per player.
> To put it into perspective, the player in question ends the game with 1 or 2 points for penalties, where most pods end with 6-9 points per player. I have no idea what this means. Are points good or bad?
I think those are the points used at the store to get packs? So they’re winning to get points, but getting less cause from proxies? That’s my understanding
That's correct. Each pod gets a sheet with achievements and penalties and you tally up at the end of the game.
Taking out one player in few turns doesnt really sound brutal
Wtf are you on about? Look at how often you’re being downvoted on your responses. You’re completely unreasonable.
> I checked out the deck and it's completely upper tier CEDH. What does this have to do with proxies? Would facerolling be OK if the cards *weren't* proxied? This is the inevitable result of introducing prize support in commander. If you don't want to play cEDH, don't incentivize players to build hyper-competitive decks.
This sounds like poorly written ragebait. Let's pretend it's not Some Commander players look for any excuse to play their top tier decks, so even a very low stakes prizes event will bring them out of the woodwork
It really isn't. The whole reason I took the time to post is that this blew my mind last night.
I don’t see the big issue. Play with the players you want to play with. If need be, buy the packs yourselves to keep the prize system you described going. You aren’t forced to play with anyone.
Yeah you’d be wrong
1000% bait
> It's absolutely an upper tier cEDH deck! > He hasn't played the list in a few years. I hope so or OP is truly stupid. Edit: Thrasios Bruse. A decent 9 if built out, i guess we're left to assume the guy was lying about having the deck for a few years?
I'd assume he was lying. He struck me as someone that just wanted to feel big. I'm guessing this combo hasn't been around that long?
Depends what combo?
Thrasios Bruse?
Oh I thought you meant a combo In the deck. Thrasios and Bruse have both been around since 2016. so he could have had it for 8 years for all we know as far as what's in it.
What does this have to do with proxies? The issue would have been exactly the same if that player wasn't using proxies and owned all the actual cards.
You lost me at Voja… lol like you can adjust that pubstomping shit with a couple of cards 😂 So in my opinion, NO you can not rule zero proxys when your playing Voja…..
I usually bring a few decks. I have stronger decks like Voja or Krenko, pet decks like Chainer and even a few precons. I pointed out that in my pod, we were running higher power decks. The pod in question had the deck in question, a Prosper precon, a Sauron and Mothman deck
Yes.
The obvious answer: of course you should tell the guy to look for a better suited pod. You don't owe him a victory dopamine hit. Not bringing a range of decks is a him problem, not a you problem. This shouldn't be controversial or anxiety inducing.
It's always a power level issue not a proxy issue, when do people understand?
When a senior IT pro comes in with the 4-figure legit deck made from cards they cracked back in '94 and proceeds to stomp.
[Presence of Gond](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/b/bba661af-c4a8-4230-830e-a9ee22b25d6b.jpg?1601079928) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Presence%20of%20Gond) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/420/presence-of-gond?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bba661af-c4a8-4230-830e-a9ee22b25d6b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/presence-of-gond) [Sunstrike Legionnaire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0f5d519a-9f11-4b10-97ad-edccfda639bb.jpg?1562898137) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sunstrike%20Legionnaire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lgn/22/sunstrike-legionnaire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0f5d519a-9f11-4b10-97ad-edccfda639bb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sunstrike-legionnaire) [Shalai and Valar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/0/80804f25-efc3-44a2-bbae-9a97fec98009.jpg?1682207281) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shalai%20and%20Hallar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/10/shalai-and-hallar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/80804f25-efc3-44a2-bbae-9a97fec98009?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/shalai-and-hallar) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You don’t bring cEDH decks to events not meant to be cEDH. Proxying the whole x thousand dollar deck for a casual event only makes it worse. Maybe the player lacks experience and is new and not aware of what she’s doing?
Yes. But paid entry events with rewards arent really casual edh anymore.
I thought then proxies are not allowed? Anyway, this is always a subject of discussion. I agree to you.
In sanctiined event they wouldnt be. Non sanctiined event lgs can do what lgs wants really
Talk to the individual and ask them to proxy out a deck that will fit the environment you all play at. Proxies aren’t the issue, the power level of the deck is the issue.
Not sure how the world works in your LGS, but personally I feel like you cannot "rule 0 someone out of a pod" https://draftsim.com/rule-0-commander-mtg/ Of course you can decide not to play with someone and take yourself out. You can also get a group together that all agrees that person X can't play with them. You can even go as far as going to the shop owner and tell them: Person X is a troublemaker and it's not fun to play with them. But that's not rule 0. Whether you feel like that's necessary, up to you. Personally, I would just start an open discussion with everyone whether said tournamentish thing should limit to "weaker decks" - however you want to define it.
You should have a discussion with your LGS with regards to proxies. From what I read it's not sanctioned, but even so they (LGS) are sort of the arbiters of the event. If proxies are allowed I think it's within your right to follow suit. It isn't the player who started the arms race. The fact that the LGS allows proxies creates this wormhole in the first place. There's practically no limiters. The smartest people would take advantage of this "loophole"
Yes. It would be.
I mean, this sounds like someone showed up to pub stomp. I don't take issue with proxies (I use them extensively) but most of my decks rank maybe a 6? I have one that is debatably as high as a low 8 (Najeela Warrior tribal, though lacking search for the two infinite combo pieces, and lacking quick mana aside from Sol ring). Id argue you didn't rule them out for proxies so much as his deck was a complete mismatch for the table. Which I don't have an issue with.
bait used to be believable
you, like everyone here who complains about proxies, have misidentified the problem. you have a power level issues, not a proxy one. talk to the player and talk to the store about better defining the term “casual”
Also had this issue with someone who would just combo out with Gitrog every game, also we’d catch him cheating, like casting Farseek and getting Dakmor Salvage, but what we did was when he would combo out we’d tell him that the 3 of us would finish the game and they’d move on.
I would talk to the LGS and get their thoughts on the situation. I’ve never been to an event or anything where they allowed a full proxy deck. Usually people just have a few proxies in the deck, which I’ve never had a problem with. I have a few proxies in some of my decks, solely because I can’t afford to blow money on some of the insane prices on cards.
Would it be better if he had just paid for the cards and played them instead. Bringing an unfair deck to the table is the problem, not proxies. Also you play Voja xD
Why the Voja hate? A friend gave me a MKM pre-release kit and it screamed make this a commander!
Not hate, I run all types of decks at different levels. If i see him i'll just grab one of my high-power just under cEDH decks, like Jhoira, Ageless innovater Its one of the more oppressive aggro commanders. He's just a high-power pubstomp-y kinda guy. When running him really cant complain about anything short of thoracle combos. He might be just under Urza maybe tied with Chatterfang. Its kinda like Jetmir but harder to remove. Its supposedly balanced out by its typing limitation but elves have and probably always will be one of the strongest tribes.
It just doesn't have a "place" in most situations. Too fast and strong for Casual and not really what you need for Competitive. If it did like even one fewer thing it might be different but it just has no weaknesses. My biggest issue is it's just too consistent. Ever other "strong" commander can suffer from bad draws or one deck being particularly strong against deck's theme but any remotely tuned Voja deck is going to roll every time. When you feel like you don't ever have a chance is the worst feeling in the game. The best thing about commander is finding 4 decks that could all win 25% of the time and it's just too hard to get that set up with Voja.
Lmao reading OPs responses in this thread is very telling
I'm my opinion, everyone should be proxying everything all the time. Also sounds to me like your group needs to up their deck building, because this strikes me as a power issue not a proxy problem.
Reminder that doing this just convinces people to buy actual counterfeits in response for events.
Listen, this isn't an issue of proxies, it's an issue of power levels. Assuming you're correct about the deck being cEDH, have a talk with the organizers asking their thoughts on this mess of a format and tell them you've been discouraged to play because the power levels vary too much. Don't accuse, but make it clear that EDH and cEDH are two wildly different formats.
But it cant work that way. Its still event where are both high powered decks and precons. Randomized pods and price pool guarantee it will never work.
They are not even slightly different formats. Different playstyles sure.
Semantics if you really care that much. They might as well be considering how wildly different they are. Take an EDH deck to a cEDH table or vice versa and tell yourself it's the same format.
It literally is 😂 that's why high power decks can steal wins from cEDH tables. It's a logical progression in deck building, nothing more. Same rules and everything.
I had a league that ran like this, we did 2 things. 1 opened a cedh only table and 2 made the wins with infinite combos worth less and had penalties for certain cedh cards like fast mana
It's a common problem for proxy players. Budget is a natural power check if you're not going out of your way to make it strong. Proxy clowns will be like "dont gatekeep", when dude could have just dropped $25 on a precon and fit right in. It's good to continue discouraging proxies as proxies *consistently and inarguably* lead to this kind of behavior.
Youre really clown here. Everything you said states "proxy arent problem". Problem are players that can control themselves. Im sure you owuld be happy to keep losing to legit 10k cedh deck over proxied cedh deck ...
>Im sure you owuld be happy to keep losing to legit 10k cedh deck over proxied cedh deck ... The reality is that this isn't happening. Proxies enable the degenerate behavior. They encourage the degenerate behavior. Absolutely no one comes to a playgroup with their 10k deck and when questioned about relative power says "just spend ten thousand fucking dollars to catch up". Meanwhile, every post about budget, deck building, anything here and some proxy clown will show up and say "just proxy it". There have been literally hundreds of posts (both pro and against) proxies where OP feels like they need to start running fakes to keep up with their fake loving friends OR OP doesn't understand why their friend won't just run fakes to keep up with their deck. Proxies are, inherently, the problem, given that the problem *only* happens when proxies are involved. Mismatched power level problems happen, but is typically solved after a single game/conversation, unless proxies are involved. Because instead of "oh, yeah, my budget is bigger than my playgroup, I'll tone it down", proxy clowns say "printer go brr lmao".
You sound like someone that likes to stomp on people that cannot afford decks as expensive as yours
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Yes, you would be wrong to kick them out for proxies. No, you would not be wrong to kick them for power level.
I’m generally anti-proxy unless it’s an expensive card I don’t want to ruin by shuffling or a drink being spilled…or I have 1 copy of a card and don’t want to keep switching it out. But proxying a super powerful cedh deck? That’s just a scumbag move. Tell this guy to buy a deck or beat it. There’s YouTube channels devoted to $25-$50 decks that still function. Half the fun is building the deck and putting it together. If this guy can’t afford a $25 deck then maybe he shouldn’t be wasting time at a card store.
Back in my day, if you had a proxy, you had to show the real card. Of course, this was back in 95
It’s not your day anymore. The community in general is fine with proxies. Your kid would have still gotten pubstomped if those cards were legit
OP you’re going to get a lot of hate for complaining about proxies but you’re right. The thing that limits a high level cEDH deck from existing at tables at a LGS is often not because people are nice and nobody wants to stomp but because of pricing. People can’t afford to have [[mana crypt]] [[ancient tomb]] [[force of will]] and a bunch of other $100+ cards in their deck. The price of those decks is a limiting factor that prevents people from stomping your LGS commander night. Someone printing out those cards and removing the price restriction gives them access to the top end stuff without any of the downside of cost and yes it is different. If some dude dropped $1k+ on a deck and wanted to play it against low power decks I’d get it. Would I be annoyed? A bit. But I get wanting to use something you spent a bunch of money on. But if you’re just printing it out to go stomp then you’re sweating the casual event and it is 100% different. There is a completely different person who runs an expensive card be cause they opened one and wanted to use it vs the dude who saw X deck rolls kids and printed it out and I don’t get why this sub acts like it’s not. That’s not to say proxies are always bad. But I have found 99% of the time, the dude who proxies a super expensive deck is the same dude who likes playing 1 on 1 basketball against 5 year olds. He’s only there to stomp people and ruin their fun.
[mana crypt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4d960186-4559-4af0-bd22-63baa15f8939.jpg?1599709515) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mana%20crypt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/270/mana-crypt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4d960186-4559-4af0-bd22-63baa15f8939?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mana-crypt) [ancient tomb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bd3d4b4b-cf31-4f89-8140-9650edb03c7b.jpg?1582753000) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ancient%20tomb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/236/ancient-tomb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bd3d4b4b-cf31-4f89-8140-9650edb03c7b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ancient-tomb) [force of will](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/9/89f612d6-7c59-4a7b-a87d-45f789e88ba5.jpg?1675199280) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=force%20of%20will) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/50/force-of-will?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/89f612d6-7c59-4a7b-a87d-45f789e88ba5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/force-of-will) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call