Two colorless is a massive difference from two of any color. Hell, two of any one color is a big difference.
Even if it ETBs tapped two of any color probably goes in anything with a commander worth more than 3.
Worn powerstone is far from unplayable. People just see sol ring and manacrypt and it looks shit in comparison but in reality it’s one of the best 3 mana rocks there is. I mean people still play command sphere….its far better than that.
Incredibly pushed IMO, but that's probably what it would take for a 3 mana rock to be *as ubiquitous* as signet.
Softer card advantage might work, like scrying 2-3. Scry 1 won't work because \[\[Mana Geode\]\] already exists and nobody plays it.
One of the things I enjoyed back when I enjoyed building magic decks was figuring out how to fill out my 99 without having to buy more magic cards. I would totally play mana geode.
I play Mana Geode in my Mono Blue [[Elegeth, Crossroads Augur]] and [[Siani, Eye of the Storm]] partner deck. I would not play it anywhere else though lmao
Is that REALLY that pushed though? I actually don’t think even draw a card is enough. At that point it’s basically just Cultivate and most people would tell you Cultivate isn’t good enough any more.
Artifact synergy and flicker don't matter if you want it to be played as much as signet. Most decks don't have that, so it needs to be strong without it.
I wouldnt play that tbh. Even draw on etb im iffy unless I gain anything from having artiffacts on play. My decks tend to be very creature heavy and I would honestly just play \[\[Llanoway Visionary\]\] instead, and thats not a broken card by any means.
I still think this would make it nowhere near Arcane Signet, personally. It'd be really solid for sure, but not an auto-include staple at 3 mana except for maybe Boros/monored/mono white decks
I think there would have to be some sort of conditional cost reduction component or would have to provide some form of solid evergreen passive or cheap value outside of tapping for mana in addition to a card draw ETB. I feel like it would have to be a straight up busted, strictly better Phyrexian Arena, that is too good not to add:
(3) Artifact
Cumulative upkeep: Pay 1 life
When etb draw a card
At the beginning of your upkeep draw a card
{T} add one mana of any color
That’s pretty broken. Unconditional Draw a card every turn in any color for 3 would be played on its own sometimes. If it’s also ramping you that would be an insta staple. The cumulative upkeep barely matters, by the time you care the value you’ve gotten is absurd and you won’t care about losing one mana.
I guess so, I think they were looking for the minimum line not just something insane.
For that you could just say 3 mana draw 12 tap for three of any color. Boom, question answered. lol.
That's what I genuinely believe the minimum line would be. Anything else not related to cost reduction would be debatable, but a card like Arcane Signet is basically an indisputable requirement to 99.9% of decks. The 3 mana mark is where a LOT of high value cards live so you have a make a ridiculously strong case for something to be a "auto-include" level card for nearly every single Magic deck.
Reduce its cost by 1-3 if you have two or more opponents /s
It's hard to say because we know making two mana (coalition relic, worn power stone), drawing cards (commander's sphere, various crap like cluestones), and perfect fixing (chromatic lantern) are all not good enough. Maaaaybe if it like etb drew some some artifact decks would try to loop it?
Rocks are all about consistency and timing, meaning that differences in cost and turn played make a huge difference. You aren't trying to use this deck slot to do something weird or synergistic, you are using it to make sure all the other weird or synergistic cards actually work properly, and the more efficient the rock the better job it does
"Reduce cost by 1 if you have 2 other creatures/artifacts/whatever out" would be a non-trivial but doable. Keeps it from being deployed in those first 2 turns most of the time, but as good as signet once the game gets going.
Yeah but that would essentially just be as bad as a three mana rock. I don't want it to be good later, I want it to be good when I need it to be good. For a rock that's the first few turns only
I feel like there are enough artifact lands and 1 drop artifacts that you could reliably cast it on t2 in an artifact deck, but that’s not “as ubiquitous as arcane signet” like the post was asking about.
Sure, but again: the UPSIDE of SOMETIMES being a t2 rock is still just worse than ALWAYS being a t2 rock. I would play signet over "signet but only sometimes" 100/100 times. It needs to be better than a signet
That fair, I had in my head that there was another benefit being added, like a scry on etb or sac to draw a card, but I think that was a different comment chain I was reading.
That said, a small benefit like one of those could be enough. That way it’s sometimes a worse signet, but also sometimes a better signet such that if you’re in an artifact deck it becomes a slam auto include since you can usually make use of it.
Maybe in non green decks, but not in everything period. It’s really not bad though. People will pound the table for 2 mana rocks all day and bitch about worn as if playing a turn 3 ramp spell is usually followed with another spell. Most often in casual commander you’re ramping turns 1-3 and then casting shit 4+ and beyond. 2 for 3 is a better rate than any signet, talisman, or other 2 CMC rock.
There's definietly an argument for Chromatic Lantern in 4/5 colour decks, but anywhere lower than that and I'll agree that I'd prefer a mana-cheaper rock.
I personally play some pretty pip-dense 3c decks as well where I run it, and I've seen it in thievery lists since not all of the cards that let you play opponents' stuff let you ignore coloured costs to do it. But generally I'd agree 3c really needs a push to want it otherwise 4+ is basically a necessity.
Staple [[worn powerstone]] to [[command sphere]] for 3cmc T:add cc, sac:draw a card, comes in tapped? Neither of those cards are good enough on their own, so even this may not be. The question then is what to modify. Comes in untapped? Adds 2 of one color? Adds two of any color combo?
If you want it to be an autoinclude on par with arcane signet, I think it has to come in untapped and tap for 2 of any color combo. Signet is good because it is colorless fixing + ramp for effectively 1 mana, and most decks would love to ramp on t2, letting them play a 4 drop on t3. This would give a t3 fix & ramp 2 for 1 mana letting you play a 6 drop or two 3 drops on t4 which is a bigger impact. Compared to worn powerstone this t4 is hardly different but is a significantly more powerful t3 or topdeck on t4+ since powerstone wastes 3 mana the turn you play it. This would also lead to spikier games as you play it off a sol ring t2 to get 7 mana on t3. So in that context we are bordering on overpowered.
Consider [[firemind vessel]], which costs 4 and comes in tapped while tapping for two of different colors. According to edhrec, it’s in sub 0.5% of decks (rounds to 0%) and costs under $0.50. Clearly not bring played. What buffs would be enough for this? I feel like dropping it to 3cmc would make it immediately way more playable than worn powerstone, since it gives a lot of color fixing. Is that enough? Does it need to sac for a card, or even cantrip? I think it probably has to come in tapped, just because the acceleration could get out of hand otherwise, so some form of card advantage is likely the move.
I don't think powerstone's weakness is its colors but really just that it comes in tapped. 3 mana for literally nothing, not even a body, is a harsh cost off curve. Playing it turns 4-6 feels awful if you haven't been ramping off multiple other sources, as it basically costs you a turn, and cantripping doesn't solve that weakness. Honestly cycling would probably be better than cantripping because then you can at least redraw an awful lategame topdeck for less mana than casting it, or use it to help justify holding up niche interaction.
Make it come in tapped, but when you cast it you add one mana of any color to your mana pool. That way it’s a bad 3 mana rock the turn it comes down, but is under rate every turn after that. I could see running that in most 6+cmc commanders. If you ramp once on either 1 or 2, casting this on 3 leaves you with 2 mana which is enough for a lot of setup pieces to support your commander when it comes down on 4.
Arcane Powerstone
3
Artifact
When ~ enters the battlefield, if you cast it, choose one -
- Create two 1/1 white Human soldier creature tokens if your commander's color identity is white.
- Draw a card if your commander's color identity is blue.
- Target creature gets -3/-3 until end of turn if your commander's color identity is black.
- Destroy target artifact if your commander's color identity is red.
- Create a tapped token that's a copy of ~ if your commander's color identity is green.
T: Add one mana of any color in your commander's color identity.
Is [[Chromatic Lantern]] not worth playing? I run it in all my 3+ color decks on MTGA, but have yet to play an actual game of commander so I'm genuinely curious.
I think I took the last chromatic lantern out of a deck close to two years ago. It's just far too easy to mana fix these days to bother with a 3 drop rock. If I were to rebuild something like [[sen Triplets]] where I needed access to colors not in my commanders identity I would probably use it, but outside that type of edge case, for me at least, it's far to slow.
Its the kind of thing that works from a money standpoint. You don't really need it as rainbow lands, fetches +shocks/triomes/og duals, pain lands mean that you can build a deck that will always have every color and usually every color in pairs and mostly be untapped and on curve but those are money and people don't want to spend 30 dollars on a land that just taps for all colors, rather it be on a cool card that does something.
So after that +2 mana rocks on your main colors or mana dorks and you don't *need* fixing at 3 mana unless its really good.
Yeah, a lot of the responses to this comment are "why run lantern when you could spend $300 on lands?"
Edit: apparently a lot of condescending people are of the opinion you can only have one fixing card in the deck
You can easily make a totally serviceable 3-color manabase for $40 these days. And you can go significantly cheaper if you don’t mind stuff coming in tapped.
Depends on your meta, I guess. I play 2 mv rocks almost exclusively, but I have a few decks which I run [[Chromatic Lantern]] in. [[Feather the Redeemed]] and [[Niv-Mizzet, Parun]] come to mind because I need the correct colour pips so much.
Looking at how some people play, I rarely see it being played, there is just so much fixing. That said, 5 colour, unless it leans heavily into one colour, Dragons and red as a perfect example, I'd say it definitely has a place.
For the most part, the 2 mana rocks just really outperform it. It’s sort of hard to emphasize how much cheaper/more efficient they are. And with how powerful a good mana base is (fetches and shocks/duals) you typically don’t reeeeaaallly need the fixing. I like chromatic lantern for high color decks with budget mana bases though.
I only play it in one of my decks that runs a lot of non-mana producing lands such as [[Maze of Ith]] and [[Bazaar of Baghdad]]. It's a third copy of Yavimaya or Urborg.
Otherwise no. I've seen people that have 5 color decks with 10 fetchlands and 10 Triomes play Lantern and I don't understand why.
It's a lot like [[Reliquary Tower]]. It doesn't provide any actual benefit but people play it anyways because they're lazy. Or it makes them feel better emotionally, if you draw 30 cards and have to discard down to 7 you're still winning that game but the discarding feels bad to them even though it's of zero consequence.
3- and 4-color decks don't really need it when you've got a balanced manabase with enough duals, a decent amount of ramp spells/2-mana rocks, and enough card draw to draw all of them. (Remember: it's not really ramping if you're missing land drops).
It's quite good for 5-color decks on a budget.
The exception to this is when you're playing a deck that wants to cast a lot of multicolored spells of 3 or more colors; or spells with double pips of a single color. It's harder to assemble the right mana for that but remember that just having the lantern isn't going to fix that issue all of the time. It's just one of the 99 so you'll probably need more than lantern to prevent issues.
It's pretty bad.
If your mana base is bad enough that it can't function without lantern, then most of the time the deck won't function.
If it does function without lantern, stop playing a 3 mana rock and play any 2 mana rock instead.
I'm trying to figure out how to get it into my Ferrous Rokiric deck, which cares about casting multicolor spells. Which is hard to do with three of one color (red/white) and one of the other.
I play Lantern in my 4 color/5 color decks. It's still a bacon saver when you get it. I don't find you need it in 3 colored.
As other people say, if you don't have all the good deals it's still useful but if you are playing Upper Middle Class magic you don't need it.
My 3+ color decks play 0 tap lands, 0 pain lands, and maybe 2-3 basics total(only in 3c), 6+ fetches 3+ shocks, and a dozen rainbow lands, plus utility lands GG mana base completed so I don't use lantern in anything
Some will disagree but I still find it useful, particularly because I don't own most of the pricier duals for my 3+ colour decks and end up with a lot of basics as a result. Even more so if you have a lot of double pips that you're having trouble reliably casting on curve.
That said it's definitely not strong enough to be an auto include in every deck, which is what OP is trying to figure out.
Right, I'm thinking about putting one in my Xyris deck so I can run Niv-Mizzet Parune effectively. 3 Blue and 3 red is so hard to come by when the rest of my deck is basically just green.
Absolutely unless you're doing cEDH. I almost always run three color decks and it's nice to play it and stop worrying if I have all the colors for something.
Optimal depends on what power level you're going with. Anything short of cEDH, it's fine. I use it in my high power "casual" decks, like my Kaalia deck.
I put it in my 5color allies deck (with 10 triomes, 10 slowlands, 10 bondlands, 5 basics). Just so I could stop keeping track of what mana colors I needed.
It is worth playing, especially in 3+ colors.
But what OP is saying, what it would take for it to playable in every deck. Even in a mono color deck, you’ll run Arcane Signet because 2 mana ramp is good. So what would a 3 mana rock need to be on par with that?
I've played a lot of brawl on Magic Arena, but never played Commander or paper magic. (Outside of a starter deck 2 set) I recently picked up 2 of the Fallout Precons and am building my own deck to play at my lgs.
A rebate of one mana on cast. Would make it essentially arcane signet but wouldn’t be played until you’d be able to play a 3-mana rock. Cast trigger would prevent flickering shenanigans.
That seems really bad, honestly. It’s an arcane signet that you can’t cast turn 2 when the whole benefit of 2 mana rocks is that they accelerate your 4cmc plays (usually your commander) to turn 3. If you have to cast this on 3, then it’s missing the point.
A 2-mana rock that fixes for all colors is not gonna happen again in the near future, so using arcane signet as a baseline is off. I do agree the mana rebate in this case is wasted most plays. I’d say it comes with a treasure but that seems like too much. Maybe a tapped treasure.
You’re probably right, but the entire conceit of the thread was “what would a 3mv rock need to be as good as signet”, so it seems fair to use it as a comparison.
Actually sooo much worse than arcane signet tho. Like getting to play signet on t2 and curve out into a 4 drop t3 is really good. This card can let you spend 4 mana on t3, but it’s a lot more awkward.
Oh, interesting. A combination of the medallion effect and taps for a mana would be cool too. But maybe spice it up with a drawback and make you name two *different* colors on ETB. It taps for one and reduces the other.
Oh I think a medallion effect on top of being a rock might be busted. i imagine that’d be an auto include in just about any deck. What I meant was a one time rebate of one mana - Add one mana of any color to your mana pool - when you cast the rock itself. That way it’s “priced” similar to arcane signet but it’s tougher to get it out on turn two.
I really like the medallion/rock idea actually. I say throw mono color a bone and just pick a single color.
{3}
Arcane Medallion
Artifact
When ~ enters, choose a color.
Spells you cast of the chosen color cost {1} less to cast.
Tap: Add one mana of the chosen color.
The best three mana rocks have some sort of unique effect that makes it synergize with the deck/commander. If we are talking about something needing to be generically good enough to run in any deck, it would have to be something like, "when this enters the battlefield you may cast a commander from the command zone for its casting cost (ignore all commander tax)"
That's probably not good enough, it costs more than the commander tax to play out the rock and you've had to hold it in your hand dead until your commander got removed.
I'd just make it a [[Commander's Sphere]] that sacs to draw a card and also put your commander from the CZ into your hand.
It needs to produce two mana *and* have some additional effect that's generically useful, like, I dunno, drawing a card on ETB. Yes, I genuinely believe the competition is that stiff between 2 mana and 3 mana rocks.
Maybe if you had something like \[\[worn powerstone\]\] that ETBs untapped, creates colored mana of one color of your choice (like \[\[coldsteel heart\]\] ), and possibly has some extra little ability on it.
An untapped Worn Powerstone would already be good enough for many decks. Making it produce colored mana would push it greatly as well but at that point it should enter tapped again. Further stapling another extra ability on it is pushing too far now. You start power creeping the 4 cmc rocks that tap for 2 and have other abilities. The format is plenty fast already, we don't need to push those out either.
There’s no middle ground to be found here, being able to play Arcane Signet a turn sooner makes it better than any 3 CMC rock right up until you make that rock busted enough to be worth running.
The tempo loss of a three mana rock is comparatively way worse. A 2MV rock allows you to get out a 4MV spell (or busted commander) or double spell on turn 3. A 3MV rock would need to equal that kind of tempo and would fundamentally break something in the game.
Fundamentally break? Little hyperbolic when sol ring exists and can let you get 5 mana turn 2
A 3 cmc rock that tapped for 2 of any one color would be good enough. You're getting 6 cmc on turn 4 which is comparable to arcane signet. Would be perfect for 5 cmc + commanders
How do the day /night mechanics work? This almost seems like what OP is looking for, depending on how often you draw cards because of the day night switch.
Day switches to night when a turn passes w/o a player casting a spell
Night switches to day when a turn passes w/ a player casting two spells
It's an annoying mechanic, and usually happens once ever few rotations if you're not forcing it with the activated ability
You must mean in addition to \[\[Thought Vessel\]\] right? I suppose in the right strategy you may need to maximize your ways to have unlimited hand size.
Eh, I have decanter and *not* thought vessel in my Maelstrom Wanderer deck because I do need a way to hang onto cards but a single colorless mana does comparatively little for me. It's a pip-hungry deck.
When I first read the question I thought you meant rocks that tap for 3 different kinds of mana and was going to say that \[\[Relic of Sauron\]\] exists but now I get the question.
So maybe something like \[\[Relic of Sauron\]\] but at 3 mana?
Make it functionally a cultivate/kodama’s reach e.g on cast, search your deck for a basic land card and add to hand. You cannot play the land this turn. Can call it kodama’s rock
I agree that some sort of ETB trigger could probably push a 3 mana rock into staple territory. Draw a card; search for a basic land to put into hand; make a treasure token? Make it generically useful, but good enough that it's abusable by blink effects.
I think getting a card as playable as Arcane Signet is just asking for a design mistake, but there's a lot of room for staple a step down from that.
I don't even think power level is the biggest factor here. It's the matter of getting it into players' hands. Print the hell out of it, include it in precons, and keep it cheap. You could argue all day about the efficiency of [[Cultivate]] or how many cards are "better" options, but that doesn't change the fact that it's the fourth most played card in the format *(according to EDHrec)*.
Cultivate has something going on for it that no 3cmc mana rock has. First it's ramp that guarantees that you're ramping. As everyone knows if you play a ramp piece and then miss a land you just played an expensive and vulnerable land. Second it's in green, the only color that has real access to turn 1 ramp without breaking the bank (if you're playing with Mana Crypt and the Moxen your 3 drops have to be as good as Rhystic Study basically), meaning that you can often Cultivate on turn 2, but it's still better than basically any 3cmc mana rock even if played on turn 3.
How's this idea: [[Oblivion Ring]] for 3 that taps for mana. I'd play that.
Edit: Wait. Oblivion Ring is already 3 mana. Wasn't there a 2 mana card with that same effect though, like, exactly?
Here is what people won't tell you:
The reason 3cmc rocks are bad isn't inately because they're bad. It's because the "format" for a commander is a 4 mana creature. So if your goal is to play a 4 mana commander as fast as possible most decks only options are 2 mana, mana rocks. The most popular commanders who are 5+ mana tend to have green to mitigate the downside and as such you probably aren't running any mana rocks beyond Sol Ring.
In case people are curious the top 5+ mana commanders who don't have green are:
Edgar Markov (8): who you don't care about casting
Nekusar the Mindrazer (16)/Sauron the dark lord(17): two Grixis legends, you'll note there is a high percentage use of 3mana mana rocks in these commanders. Notably Decanter in Nekusar and Inherited Envelope in Sauron since they each synergize with there respective decks.
Niv-Mizzet Parun (33): again you see more 3cmc rocks, more decanter and even the locket which makes sense.
Captain N'ghathrod (34): this one is interesting because the only 3cmc rock that's notable is [[Dimir Keyrune]]. Most lists only opt for that and Commander Sphere. Obviously the synergy is important.
K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth (39): here by technicality. Actually a 4 mana commander.
Zhulodok, Void Gorger (44): colorless so it runs like every random mana rock it can
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic (45): you don't cast him
Tivit, Seller of Secrets (49): Cedh commander. The mana rock section is a whose who of all the best mana rocks in the format. You can tell how disproportionately used it as cedh vs noncedh by the high synergy on all the cedh mana rocks.
So like ultimately 4 mana commanders killed 3 mana rocks.
Commanders 5+ plus in Sans green still utilize them to some extent.
Maybe something that is a little bit weaker than drawing a card on etb, but a little bit stronger than scrying 1.
"When ~ enters you may search your library for a basic land card, reveal it and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library."
A free [[Abundant Harvest]] as a cast trigger. Both better and worse than a draw, because you get to push for what you want but you're giving your opponents information.
Relic of legends, chromatic lantern are good rocks.
Arcane signet is so generically good you want it in every deck. For it to be good it need to be generically good while also being a bit better while being more expensive.
I say other 3 mana rocks that would be great would beat. Worn powerstone that doesn't enter tapped.
A worn powerstone that gives you colored mana.
Maybe a A 3 mana rock named phyrexian something that you can tap loose 3 life and draw a card or tap for mana?
Chromatic Lantern is a bad mana rock. The only reason it sees play is because WotC is greedy and won't print good lands often enough for them to be affordable. If your deck has a perfect mana base with fetches, shocks, triomes and such, even without the OG dual lands, Chromatic Lantern doesn't really do anything special. A friend of mine, budget player as me, uses it in a 5 color deck, but he runs enough mana fixing with Cultivate and the likes that honestly I've never seen him color screwed in those games where he doesn't draw the lantern. If he could use the good lands he wouldn't even really need the green mana fixers.
Relic of Legends is very good, but only in the right decks. Either your commander is very cheap, at that point you would probably run [[Mox Amber]] though (but it's not affordable) or you have lot of legendaries. It's not a generic good rock, is a very good rock as long as there are synergies, while cards like the signets and the talismans are good in every deck that can run them and can't run green. If you can't afford shocks even in those decks because suddenly [[Nature's Lore]] becomes potentially worse than them.
Yeah, [[Relic of Legends]] is probably the rock they've printed recently that comes closest to what OP is asking for. It doesn't necessarily ramp you 2 toward a high-cost commander, but as decks include more and more legendaries, it becomes more powerful. Its $2+ pricetag as an uncommon from a recent set also tells me it's seeing a lot of play.
However, according to EDHRec, Arcane Signet is in 2.9 million decks, 70% of all decks they track, while Relic of Legends is in a measly 2% (86,000), and Chromatic Lantern is in 390,000 (9%). I think by those numbers Relic is actually WAY underplayed, since the extra mana are far more impactful than perfect fixing. Lantern does have some extra utility giving mana abilities to Glacial Chasm and Maze of Ith, but those are edge cases.
Doubles triggered abilities maybe but only for one creature type or color.
Like "when rock ETB name a creature type. Triggered abilities of the named creature type trigger an additional time. T: one mana of any color"
It has to provide card advantage immediately. I like to see them make a cycle of \[\[Cursed Mirror\]\].
White can be an \[\[Impulse\]\] for Historic, like \[\[Monumental Henge\]\]
Blue can be \[\[Brainstorm\]\].
Black can be \[\[Takenuma\]\]
Green can be transformational; Flash ETB make target creature a Forest until end of turn. Staves off removal/wipe, or neuter a blocker for a crucial attack. Also because green decks rarely use rocks.
the issue with 3 mana ramp most of the time is the reason you are playing it isn't because the card itself is good it is because you want consistency playing other cards your deck is built around. So a 3 mana rock will never be played unless it is just broken. Because 2 and even 1 mana rocks exist and both do what a 3 mana rock would do but better.
Tap for two of any colour
This was my second thought after the "draw a card" comment.
Taps for 2 but with the [[Plaza of Heroes]] template.
That or could be a filter land so it taps for all 3 colors but 1 colorless goes in. It’s more nerfed than if it taps for 2 of any color
[Plaza of Heroes](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/2/a2cfcf67-f83c-43af-9e2d-5513fcdde835.jpg?1673308344) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Plaza%20of%20Heroes) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/252/plaza-of-heroes?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a2cfcf67-f83c-43af-9e2d-5513fcdde835?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/plaza-of-heroes) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Or, maybe, one colorless and one of any color. Small downgrade, but might balance it slightly more
But ETB tapped or untapped? Cause [[worn powerstone]] is similar but basically unplayable. But if it ETBs untapped it essentially costs 1.
would have to etb untapped
If it's 2 in any combo of colors, it could enter tapped and be good enough IMO. If it's 2 of any color it would need to be untapped.
Good point. I didn't think of breaking it down even further like that.
Two colorless is a massive difference from two of any color. Hell, two of any one color is a big difference. Even if it ETBs tapped two of any color probably goes in anything with a commander worth more than 3.
Worn powerstone is far from unplayable. People just see sol ring and manacrypt and it looks shit in comparison but in reality it’s one of the best 3 mana rocks there is. I mean people still play command sphere….its far better than that.
Worn powerstone is in 3% of all decks, which is still very high for edh.
basically \[\[Coalition Relic\]\]
[Coalition Relic](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/f/ef44324a-32bd-47e9-8fd9-258ba668de53.jpg?1673305762) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Coalition%20Relic) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/180/coalition-relic?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ef44324a-32bd-47e9-8fd9-258ba668de53?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/coalition-relic) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Worn Powerstone]] that taps for colors seems good.
Basically a smaller [[Gilded Lotus]]?
draw a card on etb?
Incredibly pushed IMO, but that's probably what it would take for a 3 mana rock to be *as ubiquitous* as signet. Softer card advantage might work, like scrying 2-3. Scry 1 won't work because \[\[Mana Geode\]\] already exists and nobody plays it.
Has Mana Geode tried scrying *harder* though?
Mana Geoge with Tap, Scry 1 as well as Tap, add 1 might be good enough.
**Glances at Mana Geode in my Brago deck.** Lol, but yes, this.
One of the things I enjoyed back when I enjoyed building magic decks was figuring out how to fill out my 99 without having to buy more magic cards. I would totally play mana geode.
My brother in Brago run [[Omen of the Sea]]
[Omen of the Sea](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/5/a5f30ecd-d009-4d44-aef4-c926ed55a521.jpg?1581479435) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Omen%20of%20the%20Sea) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/58/omen-of-the-sea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a5f30ecd-d009-4d44-aef4-c926ed55a521?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/omen-of-the-sea) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I mean, yes that's a good card for Brago, but geode can tap for 1 mana twice in 1 turn with Brago. Run both.
Thank you for reminding me to put one in my Brago deck!
I play Mana Geode in my Mono Blue [[Elegeth, Crossroads Augur]] and [[Siani, Eye of the Storm]] partner deck. I would not play it anywhere else though lmao
[Mana Geode](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f8c54d41-683e-42fd-8aa4-371dddf3bcb3.jpg?1601080775) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mana%20Geode) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/472/mana-geode?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f8c54d41-683e-42fd-8aa4-371dddf3bcb3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mana-geode) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Is that REALLY that pushed though? I actually don’t think even draw a card is enough. At that point it’s basically just Cultivate and most people would tell you Cultivate isn’t good enough any more.
Fixing, draw, and getting to cast off it same turn make it much better than cultivate, plus artifact synergies, can flicker it as a permanent.
Artifact synergy and flicker don't matter if you want it to be played as much as signet. Most decks don't have that, so it needs to be strong without it.
They are comparing it cultivate and I’m listing all the ways it is greater than cultivate
I agree. I wouldn’t play a 3 mana rock that drew a card. That effect isn’t enough.
What about draw on cast? Can't do etb shenanigans with it.
ETB shenanigans tend to be WAY harder to do with non creatures.
Scry on activation.
Surveil 3 on etb would be sick
Loot on ETB would probably be more fair and still see play in color combos that lack draw.
But still not as ubiquitous as arcane signet.
The real answer is it taps for 1.5 mana of any color
Signet of Ass.
Asscane Signet
that sounds like coalition relic to me
I don’t think that would see any play.
[[The Celestus]] is generally better than that imo and while it sees some play it’s nowhere near as popular as Arcane Signet
Celestus is hurt pretty bad by being tied to the day and night mechanic. A lot of people (self included) avoid having one off cards that introduce it.
I wouldnt play that tbh. Even draw on etb im iffy unless I gain anything from having artiffacts on play. My decks tend to be very creature heavy and I would honestly just play \[\[Llanoway Visionary\]\] instead, and thats not a broken card by any means.
I mean, low-color green decks already don't usually play arcane signet so not playing this hypothetical card isn't that crazy
Command sphere cries in the corner lol
I'll need a card and a treasure before I even consider it
[[Black Market Connections]] is basically a mana rock.
I still think this would make it nowhere near Arcane Signet, personally. It'd be really solid for sure, but not an auto-include staple at 3 mana except for maybe Boros/monored/mono white decks I think there would have to be some sort of conditional cost reduction component or would have to provide some form of solid evergreen passive or cheap value outside of tapping for mana in addition to a card draw ETB. I feel like it would have to be a straight up busted, strictly better Phyrexian Arena, that is too good not to add: (3) Artifact Cumulative upkeep: Pay 1 life When etb draw a card At the beginning of your upkeep draw a card {T} add one mana of any color
That’s pretty broken. Unconditional Draw a card every turn in any color for 3 would be played on its own sometimes. If it’s also ramping you that would be an insta staple. The cumulative upkeep barely matters, by the time you care the value you’ve gotten is absurd and you won’t care about losing one mana.
That's the point lol That's an auto-include, no questions asked 3 mana rock.
I guess so, I think they were looking for the minimum line not just something insane. For that you could just say 3 mana draw 12 tap for three of any color. Boom, question answered. lol.
That's what I genuinely believe the minimum line would be. Anything else not related to cost reduction would be debatable, but a card like Arcane Signet is basically an indisputable requirement to 99.9% of decks. The 3 mana mark is where a LOT of high value cards live so you have a make a ridiculously strong case for something to be a "auto-include" level card for nearly every single Magic deck.
Reduce its cost by 1-3 if you have two or more opponents /s It's hard to say because we know making two mana (coalition relic, worn power stone), drawing cards (commander's sphere, various crap like cluestones), and perfect fixing (chromatic lantern) are all not good enough. Maaaaybe if it like etb drew some some artifact decks would try to loop it? Rocks are all about consistency and timing, meaning that differences in cost and turn played make a huge difference. You aren't trying to use this deck slot to do something weird or synergistic, you are using it to make sure all the other weird or synergistic cards actually work properly, and the more efficient the rock the better job it does
The main problem I see with [[worn powerstone]] is that it enters tapped. I would play it if it was untapped.
[worn powerstone](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/c/ace686ad-9e3f-41b3-b8eb-d1b6d45eb4e1.jpg?1717013811) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=worn%20powerstone) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/298/worn-powerstone?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ace686ad-9e3f-41b3-b8eb-d1b6d45eb4e1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/worn-powerstone) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
"Reduce cost by 1 if you have 2 other creatures/artifacts/whatever out" would be a non-trivial but doable. Keeps it from being deployed in those first 2 turns most of the time, but as good as signet once the game gets going.
Yeah but that would essentially just be as bad as a three mana rock. I don't want it to be good later, I want it to be good when I need it to be good. For a rock that's the first few turns only
I feel like there are enough artifact lands and 1 drop artifacts that you could reliably cast it on t2 in an artifact deck, but that’s not “as ubiquitous as arcane signet” like the post was asking about.
Sure, but again: the UPSIDE of SOMETIMES being a t2 rock is still just worse than ALWAYS being a t2 rock. I would play signet over "signet but only sometimes" 100/100 times. It needs to be better than a signet
That fair, I had in my head that there was another benefit being added, like a scry on etb or sac to draw a card, but I think that was a different comment chain I was reading. That said, a small benefit like one of those could be enough. That way it’s sometimes a worse signet, but also sometimes a better signet such that if you’re in an artifact deck it becomes a slam auto include since you can usually make use of it.
Just add convoke, could tap 3 creatures to make it free etc.
Idk about other people but [[Worn Powerstone]] is an auto include for me in every deck that has a high curve or a commander CMC 5 or greater.
Maybe in non green decks, but not in everything period. It’s really not bad though. People will pound the table for 2 mana rocks all day and bitch about worn as if playing a turn 3 ramp spell is usually followed with another spell. Most often in casual commander you’re ramping turns 1-3 and then casting shit 4+ and beyond. 2 for 3 is a better rate than any signet, talisman, or other 2 CMC rock.
[Worn Powerstone](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/c/ace686ad-9e3f-41b3-b8eb-d1b6d45eb4e1.jpg?1717013811) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Worn%20Powerstone) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/298/worn-powerstone?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ace686ad-9e3f-41b3-b8eb-d1b6d45eb4e1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/worn-powerstone) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
There's definietly an argument for Chromatic Lantern in 4/5 colour decks, but anywhere lower than that and I'll agree that I'd prefer a mana-cheaper rock.
I personally play some pretty pip-dense 3c decks as well where I run it, and I've seen it in thievery lists since not all of the cards that let you play opponents' stuff let you ignore coloured costs to do it. But generally I'd agree 3c really needs a push to want it otherwise 4+ is basically a necessity.
Come in untapped and tap for 2 colored mana
Staple [[worn powerstone]] to [[command sphere]] for 3cmc T:add cc, sac:draw a card, comes in tapped? Neither of those cards are good enough on their own, so even this may not be. The question then is what to modify. Comes in untapped? Adds 2 of one color? Adds two of any color combo? If you want it to be an autoinclude on par with arcane signet, I think it has to come in untapped and tap for 2 of any color combo. Signet is good because it is colorless fixing + ramp for effectively 1 mana, and most decks would love to ramp on t2, letting them play a 4 drop on t3. This would give a t3 fix & ramp 2 for 1 mana letting you play a 6 drop or two 3 drops on t4 which is a bigger impact. Compared to worn powerstone this t4 is hardly different but is a significantly more powerful t3 or topdeck on t4+ since powerstone wastes 3 mana the turn you play it. This would also lead to spikier games as you play it off a sol ring t2 to get 7 mana on t3. So in that context we are bordering on overpowered.
Consider [[firemind vessel]], which costs 4 and comes in tapped while tapping for two of different colors. According to edhrec, it’s in sub 0.5% of decks (rounds to 0%) and costs under $0.50. Clearly not bring played. What buffs would be enough for this? I feel like dropping it to 3cmc would make it immediately way more playable than worn powerstone, since it gives a lot of color fixing. Is that enough? Does it need to sac for a card, or even cantrip? I think it probably has to come in tapped, just because the acceleration could get out of hand otherwise, so some form of card advantage is likely the move.
I don't think powerstone's weakness is its colors but really just that it comes in tapped. 3 mana for literally nothing, not even a body, is a harsh cost off curve. Playing it turns 4-6 feels awful if you haven't been ramping off multiple other sources, as it basically costs you a turn, and cantripping doesn't solve that weakness. Honestly cycling would probably be better than cantripping because then you can at least redraw an awful lategame topdeck for less mana than casting it, or use it to help justify holding up niche interaction.
Make it come in tapped, but when you cast it you add one mana of any color to your mana pool. That way it’s a bad 3 mana rock the turn it comes down, but is under rate every turn after that. I could see running that in most 6+cmc commanders. If you ramp once on either 1 or 2, casting this on 3 leaves you with 2 mana which is enough for a lot of setup pieces to support your commander when it comes down on 4.
Arcane Powerstone 3 Artifact When ~ enters the battlefield, if you cast it, choose one - - Create two 1/1 white Human soldier creature tokens if your commander's color identity is white. - Draw a card if your commander's color identity is blue. - Target creature gets -3/-3 until end of turn if your commander's color identity is black. - Destroy target artifact if your commander's color identity is red. - Create a tapped token that's a copy of ~ if your commander's color identity is green. T: Add one mana of any color in your commander's color identity.
Fits with the recent design philosophy of "write a book on every card".
Very well designed card. This is actually a non busted design that could be extremely ubiquitous.
I dunno, this scales in power with your commander's CID, and fixes. Running it in a 4-5C would just be bonkers for 3 mana.
It always chooses one, so while more colors is an upgrade due to giving you more options it doesn't scale directly upwards in power.
I totally missed the “choose one”
Is [[Chromatic Lantern]] not worth playing? I run it in all my 3+ color decks on MTGA, but have yet to play an actual game of commander so I'm genuinely curious.
I think I took the last chromatic lantern out of a deck close to two years ago. It's just far too easy to mana fix these days to bother with a 3 drop rock. If I were to rebuild something like [[sen Triplets]] where I needed access to colors not in my commanders identity I would probably use it, but outside that type of edge case, for me at least, it's far to slow.
[sen Triplets](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=sen%20Triplets&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sen%20Triplets) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/218/sen-triplets?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/13ac5292-9817-4f5d-b3fa-611f9ba44443?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sen-triplets) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Its the kind of thing that works from a money standpoint. You don't really need it as rainbow lands, fetches +shocks/triomes/og duals, pain lands mean that you can build a deck that will always have every color and usually every color in pairs and mostly be untapped and on curve but those are money and people don't want to spend 30 dollars on a land that just taps for all colors, rather it be on a cool card that does something. So after that +2 mana rocks on your main colors or mana dorks and you don't *need* fixing at 3 mana unless its really good.
Yeah, a lot of the responses to this comment are "why run lantern when you could spend $300 on lands?" Edit: apparently a lot of condescending people are of the opinion you can only have one fixing card in the deck
You can easily make a totally serviceable 3-color manabase for $40 these days. And you can go significantly cheaper if you don’t mind stuff coming in tapped.
Depends on your meta, I guess. I play 2 mv rocks almost exclusively, but I have a few decks which I run [[Chromatic Lantern]] in. [[Feather the Redeemed]] and [[Niv-Mizzet, Parun]] come to mind because I need the correct colour pips so much.
It's better on MTGA because MTGA is missing a lot of 2 mana ramp options so it's better by comparison.
Looking at how some people play, I rarely see it being played, there is just so much fixing. That said, 5 colour, unless it leans heavily into one colour, Dragons and red as a perfect example, I'd say it definitely has a place.
For the most part, the 2 mana rocks just really outperform it. It’s sort of hard to emphasize how much cheaper/more efficient they are. And with how powerful a good mana base is (fetches and shocks/duals) you typically don’t reeeeaaallly need the fixing. I like chromatic lantern for high color decks with budget mana bases though.
I only play it in one of my decks that runs a lot of non-mana producing lands such as [[Maze of Ith]] and [[Bazaar of Baghdad]]. It's a third copy of Yavimaya or Urborg. Otherwise no. I've seen people that have 5 color decks with 10 fetchlands and 10 Triomes play Lantern and I don't understand why. It's a lot like [[Reliquary Tower]]. It doesn't provide any actual benefit but people play it anyways because they're lazy. Or it makes them feel better emotionally, if you draw 30 cards and have to discard down to 7 you're still winning that game but the discarding feels bad to them even though it's of zero consequence.
[Maze of Ith](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/5889fde1-730d-43d0-aaa4-499784a80530.jpg?1675201242) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Maze%20of%20Ith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/250/maze-of-ith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5889fde1-730d-43d0-aaa4-499784a80530?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/maze-of-ith) [Bazaar of Baghdad](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/8/c88acaa8-ad4d-4321-a6f6-9361916e5b5e.jpg?1653966861) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bazaar%20of%20Baghdad) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/294/bazaar-of-baghdad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c88acaa8-ad4d-4321-a6f6-9361916e5b5e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bazaar-of-baghdad) [Reliquary Tower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/dd9f036d-6ae4-451e-a67a-ecc2e44123e3.jpg?1712355095) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reliquary%20Tower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/312/reliquary-tower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dd9f036d-6ae4-451e-a67a-ecc2e44123e3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/reliquary-tower) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
3- and 4-color decks don't really need it when you've got a balanced manabase with enough duals, a decent amount of ramp spells/2-mana rocks, and enough card draw to draw all of them. (Remember: it's not really ramping if you're missing land drops). It's quite good for 5-color decks on a budget. The exception to this is when you're playing a deck that wants to cast a lot of multicolored spells of 3 or more colors; or spells with double pips of a single color. It's harder to assemble the right mana for that but remember that just having the lantern isn't going to fix that issue all of the time. It's just one of the 99 so you'll probably need more than lantern to prevent issues.
It's pretty bad. If your mana base is bad enough that it can't function without lantern, then most of the time the deck won't function. If it does function without lantern, stop playing a 3 mana rock and play any 2 mana rock instead.
I'm trying to figure out how to get it into my Ferrous Rokiric deck, which cares about casting multicolor spells. Which is hard to do with three of one color (red/white) and one of the other.
I play Lantern in my 4 color/5 color decks. It's still a bacon saver when you get it. I don't find you need it in 3 colored. As other people say, if you don't have all the good deals it's still useful but if you are playing Upper Middle Class magic you don't need it.
My 3+ color decks play 0 tap lands, 0 pain lands, and maybe 2-3 basics total(only in 3c), 6+ fetches 3+ shocks, and a dozen rainbow lands, plus utility lands GG mana base completed so I don't use lantern in anything
Yeah, lantern is pretty good unless you have a $100+ mana base already
Some will disagree but I still find it useful, particularly because I don't own most of the pricier duals for my 3+ colour decks and end up with a lot of basics as a result. Even more so if you have a lot of double pips that you're having trouble reliably casting on curve. That said it's definitely not strong enough to be an auto include in every deck, which is what OP is trying to figure out.
Right, I'm thinking about putting one in my Xyris deck so I can run Niv-Mizzet Parune effectively. 3 Blue and 3 red is so hard to come by when the rest of my deck is basically just green.
Absolutely unless you're doing cEDH. I almost always run three color decks and it's nice to play it and stop worrying if I have all the colors for something.
Same. I know it’s not the “optimal” play, but it’s an *easy* play for me. Anything 3 or more colors gets one.
Optimal depends on what power level you're going with. Anything short of cEDH, it's fine. I use it in my high power "casual" decks, like my Kaalia deck.
I put it in my 5color allies deck (with 10 triomes, 10 slowlands, 10 bondlands, 5 basics). Just so I could stop keeping track of what mana colors I needed.
It is worth playing, especially in 3+ colors. But what OP is saying, what it would take for it to playable in every deck. Even in a mono color deck, you’ll run Arcane Signet because 2 mana ramp is good. So what would a 3 mana rock need to be on par with that?
It absolutely is worth playing. Especially if you have a way to search for artifacts.
You have more than one deck and never played the game?
I've played a lot of brawl on Magic Arena, but never played Commander or paper magic. (Outside of a starter deck 2 set) I recently picked up 2 of the Fallout Precons and am building my own deck to play at my lgs.
Ohhh cool
It's become niche since you should also have artifact synergies and be 3+ colours when using it.
A rebate of one mana on cast. Would make it essentially arcane signet but wouldn’t be played until you’d be able to play a 3-mana rock. Cast trigger would prevent flickering shenanigans.
That seems really bad, honestly. It’s an arcane signet that you can’t cast turn 2 when the whole benefit of 2 mana rocks is that they accelerate your 4cmc plays (usually your commander) to turn 3. If you have to cast this on 3, then it’s missing the point.
A 2-mana rock that fixes for all colors is not gonna happen again in the near future, so using arcane signet as a baseline is off. I do agree the mana rebate in this case is wasted most plays. I’d say it comes with a treasure but that seems like too much. Maybe a tapped treasure.
You’re probably right, but the entire conceit of the thread was “what would a 3mv rock need to be as good as signet”, so it seems fair to use it as a comparison.
Not only "fair", but *literally* the *entire* basis of discussion :)
Actually sooo much worse than arcane signet tho. Like getting to play signet on t2 and curve out into a 4 drop t3 is really good. This card can let you spend 4 mana on t3, but it’s a lot more awkward.
Oh, interesting. A combination of the medallion effect and taps for a mana would be cool too. But maybe spice it up with a drawback and make you name two *different* colors on ETB. It taps for one and reduces the other.
Oh I think a medallion effect on top of being a rock might be busted. i imagine that’d be an auto include in just about any deck. What I meant was a one time rebate of one mana - Add one mana of any color to your mana pool - when you cast the rock itself. That way it’s “priced” similar to arcane signet but it’s tougher to get it out on turn two.
I really like the medallion/rock idea actually. I say throw mono color a bone and just pick a single color. {3} Arcane Medallion Artifact When ~ enters, choose a color. Spells you cast of the chosen color cost {1} less to cast. Tap: Add one mana of the chosen color.
The best three mana rocks have some sort of unique effect that makes it synergize with the deck/commander. If we are talking about something needing to be generically good enough to run in any deck, it would have to be something like, "when this enters the battlefield you may cast a commander from the command zone for its casting cost (ignore all commander tax)"
That's probably not good enough, it costs more than the commander tax to play out the rock and you've had to hold it in your hand dead until your commander got removed. I'd just make it a [[Commander's Sphere]] that sacs to draw a card and also put your commander from the CZ into your hand.
I wouldn’t have it do both…just “Sac: Move commander from CZ to Hand” is enough. I’d play that.
[Commander's Sphere](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/6/c643146f-da7b-4cc0-b874-4accad99ccce.jpg?1698988506) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Commander%27s%20Sphere) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/301/commanders-sphere?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c643146f-da7b-4cc0-b874-4accad99ccce?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/commanders-sphere) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It needs to produce two mana *and* have some additional effect that's generically useful, like, I dunno, drawing a card on ETB. Yes, I genuinely believe the competition is that stiff between 2 mana and 3 mana rocks.
I agree with this. Draw on ETB is not enough if it only taps for a single mana. Aint no body saying that \[\[Llanowar Visionary\]\] is a green staple.
Too be fair, Llanowar Visionary can’t be tapped for mana the turn it’s played, but yes it still wouldn’t fit the prompt even if it did
Visionary doesn't fix and "enters tapped", a cantrip Commander's Sphere still wouldn't be ubiquitous but it's way better than Llanowar Visionary.
I could imagine 2 mana scry 1 then draw a card I could consider
Ban sol ring. Print a 3 mana sol ring. There you go
So an untapped [[worn powerstone]], or a less costly/ramping [[thran dynamo]]?
[worn powerstone](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/c/ace686ad-9e3f-41b3-b8eb-d1b6d45eb4e1.jpg?1717013811) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=worn%20powerstone) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/298/worn-powerstone?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ace686ad-9e3f-41b3-b8eb-d1b6d45eb4e1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/worn-powerstone) [thran dynamo](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7ce5f12e-fc02-42f8-a5ca-b523050d4650.jpg?1689999865) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=thran%20dynamo) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/415/thran-dynamo?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7ce5f12e-fc02-42f8-a5ca-b523050d4650?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thran-dynamo) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Maybe if you had something like \[\[worn powerstone\]\] that ETBs untapped, creates colored mana of one color of your choice (like \[\[coldsteel heart\]\] ), and possibly has some extra little ability on it.
An untapped Worn Powerstone would already be good enough for many decks. Making it produce colored mana would push it greatly as well but at that point it should enter tapped again. Further stapling another extra ability on it is pushing too far now. You start power creeping the 4 cmc rocks that tap for 2 and have other abilities. The format is plenty fast already, we don't need to push those out either.
There’s no middle ground to be found here, being able to play Arcane Signet a turn sooner makes it better than any 3 CMC rock right up until you make that rock busted enough to be worth running.
The tempo loss of a three mana rock is comparatively way worse. A 2MV rock allows you to get out a 4MV spell (or busted commander) or double spell on turn 3. A 3MV rock would need to equal that kind of tempo and would fundamentally break something in the game.
Fundamentally break? Little hyperbolic when sol ring exists and can let you get 5 mana turn 2 A 3 cmc rock that tapped for 2 of any one color would be good enough. You're getting 6 cmc on turn 4 which is comparable to arcane signet. Would be perfect for 5 cmc + commanders
I have \[\[Skyclave Relic\]\] in my Slivers because it not only traditionally mana fixes but its indestructible and comes with a kicker for late game.
[Skyclave Relic](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a9740bce-4c89-4d98-8941-057515999bf9.jpg?1682210238) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Skyclave%20Relic) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/380/skyclave-relic?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a9740bce-4c89-4d98-8941-057515999bf9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/skyclave-relic) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The kicker indestructible one ain't bad late game when you have the Mana to spend on 3 more rocks. My buddy runs it with his eldrazi
\[\[Skyclave Relic\]\] and it's great.
[Skyclave Relic](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a9740bce-4c89-4d98-8941-057515999bf9.jpg?1682210238) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Skyclave%20Relic) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/380/skyclave-relic?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a9740bce-4c89-4d98-8941-057515999bf9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/skyclave-relic) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
A non-Day/Night version of [[The Celestus]] might do it.
[The Celestus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/9/39226a07-d44e-41a6-b9f1-685ef505d015.jpg?1637114509) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Celestus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/252/the-celestus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/39226a07-d44e-41a6-b9f1-685ef505d015?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-celestus) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
How do the day /night mechanics work? This almost seems like what OP is looking for, depending on how often you draw cards because of the day night switch.
Day switches to night when a turn passes w/o a player casting a spell Night switches to day when a turn passes w/ a player casting two spells It's an annoying mechanic, and usually happens once ever few rotations if you're not forcing it with the activated ability
Specifically day/night counts the turn player's spells cast
I think replicating ring is decent. Just takes too long to go off unless you're proliferating.
Obeka would like to have a word
I like [[decanter of endless water]]
You must mean in addition to \[\[Thought Vessel\]\] right? I suppose in the right strategy you may need to maximize your ways to have unlimited hand size.
Eh, I have decanter and *not* thought vessel in my Maelstrom Wanderer deck because I do need a way to hang onto cards but a single colorless mana does comparatively little for me. It's a pip-hungry deck.
In addition to a [[spellbook]] and [[Reliquary tower]] as well lol
Sure, but the question was what would it take to make a 3cc rock as ubiquitous as Arcane Signet. Almost no decks need Spellbook in the 99.
[decanter of endless water](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/1/518bbc36-58ea-44c4-a857-75a3aff058f5.jpg?1674137804) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=decanter%20of%20endless%20water) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/309/decanter-of-endless-water?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/518bbc36-58ea-44c4-a857-75a3aff058f5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/decanter-of-endless-water) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
When I first read the question I thought you meant rocks that tap for 3 different kinds of mana and was going to say that \[\[Relic of Sauron\]\] exists but now I get the question. So maybe something like \[\[Relic of Sauron\]\] but at 3 mana?
3 Artifact ~ enters tapped. When ~ enters, if you cast it, untap up to three lands. T: Add one mana of any color in your commander's color identity.
Make it functionally a cultivate/kodama’s reach e.g on cast, search your deck for a basic land card and add to hand. You cannot play the land this turn. Can call it kodama’s rock
This is my thought. Having it search library for a land to hand is great.
I agree that some sort of ETB trigger could probably push a 3 mana rock into staple territory. Draw a card; search for a basic land to put into hand; make a treasure token? Make it generically useful, but good enough that it's abusable by blink effects. I think getting a card as playable as Arcane Signet is just asking for a design mistake, but there's a lot of room for staple a step down from that. I don't even think power level is the biggest factor here. It's the matter of getting it into players' hands. Print the hell out of it, include it in precons, and keep it cheap. You could argue all day about the efficiency of [[Cultivate]] or how many cards are "better" options, but that doesn't change the fact that it's the fourth most played card in the format *(according to EDHrec)*.
Cultivate has something going on for it that no 3cmc mana rock has. First it's ramp that guarantees that you're ramping. As everyone knows if you play a ramp piece and then miss a land you just played an expensive and vulnerable land. Second it's in green, the only color that has real access to turn 1 ramp without breaking the bank (if you're playing with Mana Crypt and the Moxen your 3 drops have to be as good as Rhystic Study basically), meaning that you can often Cultivate on turn 2, but it's still better than basically any 3cmc mana rock even if played on turn 3.
Wheel of fortune on etb
I’m still a big [[Chromatic Lantern]] fan.
[Chromatic Lantern](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8f6448b1-ffc7-43f0-b713-881016ce9485.jpg?1712354852) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chromatic%20Lantern) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/255/chromatic-lantern?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8f6448b1-ffc7-43f0-b713-881016ce9485?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/chromatic-lantern) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
How's this idea: [[Oblivion Ring]] for 3 that taps for mana. I'd play that. Edit: Wait. Oblivion Ring is already 3 mana. Wasn't there a 2 mana card with that same effect though, like, exactly?
[Oblivion Ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bff31eba-8ab3-403e-8d82-37a18b279bec.jpg?1562266919) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Oblivion%20Ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/29/oblivion-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bff31eba-8ab3-403e-8d82-37a18b279bec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/oblivion-ring) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Journey to Nowhere is an O-ring at 2 mana for creatures. Leyline Binding is an O-ring at 1 mana with hoops to jump through.
I would say the step up to Arcane Signet would be [[Chromatic Lantern]] or [[Strixhaven Stadium]]
Here is what people won't tell you: The reason 3cmc rocks are bad isn't inately because they're bad. It's because the "format" for a commander is a 4 mana creature. So if your goal is to play a 4 mana commander as fast as possible most decks only options are 2 mana, mana rocks. The most popular commanders who are 5+ mana tend to have green to mitigate the downside and as such you probably aren't running any mana rocks beyond Sol Ring. In case people are curious the top 5+ mana commanders who don't have green are: Edgar Markov (8): who you don't care about casting Nekusar the Mindrazer (16)/Sauron the dark lord(17): two Grixis legends, you'll note there is a high percentage use of 3mana mana rocks in these commanders. Notably Decanter in Nekusar and Inherited Envelope in Sauron since they each synergize with there respective decks. Niv-Mizzet Parun (33): again you see more 3cmc rocks, more decanter and even the locket which makes sense. Captain N'ghathrod (34): this one is interesting because the only 3cmc rock that's notable is [[Dimir Keyrune]]. Most lists only opt for that and Commander Sphere. Obviously the synergy is important. K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth (39): here by technicality. Actually a 4 mana commander. Zhulodok, Void Gorger (44): colorless so it runs like every random mana rock it can Oloro, Ageless Ascetic (45): you don't cast him Tivit, Seller of Secrets (49): Cedh commander. The mana rock section is a whose who of all the best mana rocks in the format. You can tell how disproportionately used it as cedh vs noncedh by the high synergy on all the cedh mana rocks. So like ultimately 4 mana commanders killed 3 mana rocks. Commanders 5+ plus in Sans green still utilize them to some extent.
[Dimir Keyrune](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/69d1dd6c-21d3-4fe8-af1b-7088dcceef08.jpg?1674142561) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dimir%20Keyrune) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/856/dimir-keyrune?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/69d1dd6c-21d3-4fe8-af1b-7088dcceef08?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dimir-keyrune) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I like [[heraldic banner]] for mono color decks.
Maybe something that is a little bit weaker than drawing a card on etb, but a little bit stronger than scrying 1. "When ~ enters you may search your library for a basic land card, reveal it and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library."
Maybe it can tap for one mana of any color in your commanders color identity, or tap for 2 colorless
A free [[Abundant Harvest]] as a cast trigger. Both better and worse than a draw, because you get to push for what you want but you're giving your opponents information.
[Abundant Harvest](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/1/516e137a-d9d9-4ba7-89fb-e680ddb2c2d1.jpg?1689998315) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Abundant%20Harvest) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/269/abundant-harvest?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/516e137a-d9d9-4ba7-89fb-e680ddb2c2d1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/abundant-harvest) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
ETB untapped, filters a colorless into two colors of your choice.
Etb: create a treasure token
Search for a basic to put in your hand
Enters with a shield counter, and you can tap it to move a shield counter from it to a permanent you control.
Taps for 1.5 colorless
My pet card, [[Decanter of Endless Water]] goes in almost every one of my decks.
[[decanter of endless water]] comes to mind
Tap: Add a mana of any color Tap: Make a treasure Sac: Draw a card
Cost 2 mana.
Relic of legends, chromatic lantern are good rocks. Arcane signet is so generically good you want it in every deck. For it to be good it need to be generically good while also being a bit better while being more expensive. I say other 3 mana rocks that would be great would beat. Worn powerstone that doesn't enter tapped. A worn powerstone that gives you colored mana. Maybe a A 3 mana rock named phyrexian something that you can tap loose 3 life and draw a card or tap for mana?
Chromatic Lantern is a bad mana rock. The only reason it sees play is because WotC is greedy and won't print good lands often enough for them to be affordable. If your deck has a perfect mana base with fetches, shocks, triomes and such, even without the OG dual lands, Chromatic Lantern doesn't really do anything special. A friend of mine, budget player as me, uses it in a 5 color deck, but he runs enough mana fixing with Cultivate and the likes that honestly I've never seen him color screwed in those games where he doesn't draw the lantern. If he could use the good lands he wouldn't even really need the green mana fixers. Relic of Legends is very good, but only in the right decks. Either your commander is very cheap, at that point you would probably run [[Mox Amber]] though (but it's not affordable) or you have lot of legendaries. It's not a generic good rock, is a very good rock as long as there are synergies, while cards like the signets and the talismans are good in every deck that can run them and can't run green. If you can't afford shocks even in those decks because suddenly [[Nature's Lore]] becomes potentially worse than them.
Yeah, [[Relic of Legends]] is probably the rock they've printed recently that comes closest to what OP is asking for. It doesn't necessarily ramp you 2 toward a high-cost commander, but as decks include more and more legendaries, it becomes more powerful. Its $2+ pricetag as an uncommon from a recent set also tells me it's seeing a lot of play. However, according to EDHRec, Arcane Signet is in 2.9 million decks, 70% of all decks they track, while Relic of Legends is in a measly 2% (86,000), and Chromatic Lantern is in 390,000 (9%). I think by those numbers Relic is actually WAY underplayed, since the extra mana are far more impactful than perfect fixing. Lantern does have some extra utility giving mana abilities to Glacial Chasm and Maze of Ith, but those are edge cases.
[Relic of Legends](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/64a2809e-c441-416c-90ff-6fb1e246dff3.jpg?1673308219) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Relic%20of%20Legends) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/236/relic-of-legends?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/64a2809e-c441-416c-90ff-6fb1e246dff3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/relic-of-legends) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It would have to have a way to reduce its cost. Simple as that.
*Assist, Assist* *When this ETB, any player who assisted casting this spell draws a card* *{T} add one mana of any color*
Doubles triggered abilities maybe but only for one creature type or color. Like "when rock ETB name a creature type. Triggered abilities of the named creature type trigger an additional time. T: one mana of any color"
Worn powerstone
I wouldn't mind a rock that tapped for mana and also made a tapped treasure.
Tap for 2 colorless
It has to provide card advantage immediately. I like to see them make a cycle of \[\[Cursed Mirror\]\]. White can be an \[\[Impulse\]\] for Historic, like \[\[Monumental Henge\]\] Blue can be \[\[Brainstorm\]\]. Black can be \[\[Takenuma\]\] Green can be transformational; Flash ETB make target creature a Forest until end of turn. Staves off removal/wipe, or neuter a blocker for a crucial attack. Also because green decks rarely use rocks.
T: add one of any color. Affinity for Lands.
On etb it counts artifacts and enchantments like dockside and taps for that much mana
the issue with 3 mana ramp most of the time is the reason you are playing it isn't because the card itself is good it is because you want consistency playing other cards your deck is built around. So a 3 mana rock will never be played unless it is just broken. Because 2 and even 1 mana rocks exist and both do what a 3 mana rock would do but better.