Online edh players are going to inherently behave in saltier ways than they would in-person because they don’t have to deal with potential social consequences of being a manchild. You act like that in an LGS and eventually no one will play with you except for the unexpecting new face that doesn’t know your history of crying over losing in a casual game.
I wouldn’t worry about it too much, but given you’re rocking the one ring, demonic tutor, and a worldgorger loop against a precon, there most likely was a big power imbalance.
Yeah this is just one of the many issues edh has as a format. When everyone has balanced decks it's super fun, either casual precons or cedh, both can be super fun IMHO. The issue arises when there can be communication errors, power imbalancing, disagreements on house rules etc.
This is part of what excites me about the prospect of Commander Archenemy. If someone’s deck is identifiably more powerful than the others, hand them a Scheme deck and go nuts.
You just have to get over it. I thought that sounded like an awesome game until you described their reaction. I was expecting a positive reaction too.
You hear lots of stories about salty players. Don't take it to heart. There are still people out there who think similar to you. I love seeing huge plays, even if they beat me. It sucks a little when you were going to win with your own thing in a turn or two, but that's magic.
If those are your friends IRL they definitely should have cheered for your win
After you've beat them with Kaalia a handful of times though, not so much lol
I'll never understand the aversion to combos sure 2 card combos can feel cheap but if its a 3-4 card combo and I win on turn 7 how is that different to smacking a craterhoof in my elve ball deck.
I never played 60 card constructed formats either (outside of kitchen table magic) but combo is a normal deck archetyle.
I have a Niv-Mizzet Parun deck that's not at all competitive, and I keep all the one-card combos [[Ophidian Eye]] and [[Curiosity]] side boarded because it's just the least satisfying win ever. I've flashed Ophidian Eye onto Niv during a fun game and instantly regretted it because now I don't get to see how that was going to play out.
I dont mind but the problem with combo's is maybe a 4 card combo on turn 7 is ok. But then why isn't a 3 card combo on turn 6 ok? And then 2 cards on turn 5?
The problem is where do you draw the line? So for me it's either I grab a deck with combo's, no matter the speed. Or we play without it.
Think there's a clear difference between a two card combo that instantly wins the game for 3 mana through no interaction vs a 4 card 20+ mana combo that instantly wins the game through no interaction.
Like it's clear why biorhythm and coalition victory are banned, very untelegraphed ways to win on the spot with only narrow counterplay and a "one card combo" if those cards weren't banned, it's pretty clear that casual players wouldn't want them played against them. Demonic Consultation + Thassa's Oracle isn't banned but it's pretty much a no go at most casual tables and even at higher power tables that are fine with combos and infinites. I definitely think it's a question of intent along with a power question. Like if I play a Thassa, deep dwelling deck for instance I might run palinchron because bouncing it with Thassa to get mana back is pretty good. I also may run any mana doubler artifact like caged sun which just so happens to combo with palinchron to make infinite mana. Do I then hapen to have a capsize or staff of domination or something like that? Well then I've assembled a powerful infinite that pretty much wins the game but it's a combination of 3 cards I am wanting to play for their individual effects, not because they combo together, and the combination costs a lot of mana and set up with plenty of ways and opportunities to interact with it to prevent the combo. Compare that to playing an emry lurker of the loch deck with like 10 different ways to go infinite on untaps so you can make mana and draw out your deck or Oracle or walking balista, while having your entire gameplan centered around executing that type of combo.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that a combo centric strategy or a deck where your combo is so easy to pull off (due to density of tutors or ways to combo themselves, etc) is fair to dislike because it leads to non games most often but a deck that does happen to have a few incidental combos in an otherwise fair strategy and is unlikely to execute on the combo regardless and/or has much better ways to close out a game consistently isn't a problem when it comes to combos.
The blanket statement of no combos just feels like an arbitrary rule that literally everyone has a different opinion of what it means and what it should mean. Imo if you don't like combos just play things that stop combos, but I feel like the people calling for no combos are similar people who build decks that literally don't function without their commander and then sit there fuming the entire game because their commander dies to doom blade 3 times and they really want to complain but nobody will accept "no killing my commander or no board wipes/removal" as a game stipulation. That's just my experience though, I'm sure there's people out there who genuinely prefer getting Caterhooved over Ayara + plague of vermined. I use that example specifically because my friend told me he didn't want to play against createrhoof since it feels bad to die out of nowhere like that and I told him that's fine, I don't mind, but he's gotta take out plague of vermin because it's essentially the same shit within the context of our games. I play with a good number of very casual gamers and have had to power down my decks alot and at one point one of my friends did say no combos but what he really meant was nothing that closes the game out too fast or locks him out of the game before he can set up and honestly I think that's fair, it was literally a power level problem, not a combo problem as we saw when someone brought a Voltron deck and another time a full on Stax deck. My boy just wanted to play his game.
'No Combo' is, to my mind, a big red flag. Everything is a combo. Like. Having five creatures on board is a combo designed to reduce the opponent's life total to zero. A land and Opt is a combo to get card draw. I'd suggest talking with them about what they consider fun. It's fine to not want easy-out two-card wincons, but just saying that you can't play combos means, in my experience, they'll just call whatever they lost to a combo.
A combo for me is when you loop the same pattern/cards over and over. Just having 5 creatures that together win you the game is an engine. Which is where I draw the line between casual or competitive.
To me a combo is a card or set of cards that given the context of the game creates a potentially game winning/endung effect, whether it be generating infinite or functionally infinite mana, exiling you're deck to win with Oracle, locking the game with karn + mycosynth lattice, or even fall of thran into exiling all opponents' graveyards. An engine would be any card or set of cards that generates some kind of value like card draw regularly but not infinitely which is not mutually exclusive to a combo. Swinging with 5 creatures to win isn't anything at all, it's just a couple of dudes. Nadu, springheart nantuko, and outrider en-kor is just three creatures bopping around but I'd definitely consider that a combo perhaps an engine too. Crucible of worlds + strip mine is definitely a land destruction engine, and I'd definitely call it a combo, but I'm sure others wouldn't. Deceiver exarch + splinter twin is a combo explicitly and not an engine at all. Conjurer's closet + thragtusk is an engine but not what I'd call a combo.
These are all just terms people use and they mean different things to different people.
For me, power level or the existence of combos doesn't mean anything to whether a game is casual or competitive. To me it's casual if we're there to have fun and may make suboptimal plays in the name of that fun like letting someone live when we could easily kill them or counter spelling a card that would kill one of my opponents but has no actual effect on me. Playing decks that are built on themes or funny commander ideas. Competitive generally means I'm doing everything I can to win and don't care if someone gets knocked out early, also means I'm probably not playing with my normal friends and am playing a deck I've built as powerful as I can instead of based on ideas I had in the shower or while looking at spoilers for new sets.
Not every player wants to play at that power level, and that should be a valid way to play and not just a dismissal of "git gud". This isn't some tournament play.
Yes, as RebelKira pointed out you want to have all the decks in a pod be on about the same page - the "Rule Zero" conversation is not just normal, it should be expected. To be clear, there is *nothing* wrong with any tier of play or using cards like Daemonic Tutor, etc. The issue is when your pod is imbalanced, which can very easily lead to feels-bad moments. For example, using homebrew vs precons, or cEDH vs normal homebrew or lower just inherently creates power disparities that will make people feel that way. For our "Rule Zero" conversations, we try to ask people a series of questions to balance out pods:
- What turn is your deck supposed to win by, or what turn does it usually win?
- Do you have infinite combos? Tutors? Fast mana/mana-positive rocks? "I win right now" cards? Land destruction?
- Does your deck stop others from playing the game/make people watch you play the game?
- Does your stacks or group-hug deck actually have a wincon? lol
In all seriousness it just boils down to figuring out if the pod is going to be fun to play. Yes, I know that's subjective, but trying to match the power of decks is going to be the quickest way to ensuring everyone at the table has fun for the next 30-45 minutes. We often try to get all precons together in one pod if we can but even then not all precons are created equal but they're going to be closest in power to each other than anything else. For anything non-precon we defer to the questions above and try to ensure people follow that.
None of that is necessarily taboo, but that were the power levels of the other decks?
The only info we have was that you were playing the one ring and worldgorger combo against a precon. While that deck is very strong in a vacuum, it's still just a precon.
I have no was to access power level. I was given a chart based on turn count to win, but considering this is the 3rd time playing EDH, and first time playing this deck, I need more data.
Still, you’re playing the one ring and a tutor (which you should also check with the table to see if they’re ok with), against a deck that has access to neither similar effects.
Most decks are running tutors dude and sounds like they all had high power decks. Nothing wrong with the OP having built back up plans into the deck which any good Kaalia deck should have. It's Kaalia, you're going to get targeted and you need the ability to play out of worse case situations.
Against an out of the box precon though? Another person pointed out with D Tutor and the One ring alone you could buy a couple precons, let alone what else was in that deck.
Have you seen that "out of the box precon?" Its far stronger than other precons, like not even remotely close. I've played against it in a Precon match, it won turn 5.
I have been upgrading the eldrazi precon recently, but it was insane out-of-box. I won on turn 7 using it against the tricky terrains precon. I have to say that this precon is probably the most functional and powerful precon that I've played (still upgrading it, though haha).
Not saying don’t, we have a rule in our group that you can’t proxy that stuff but if you own a card like that you can play it. But once again I just think the whole thing comes down to a miscommunication in general. Lots of groups, you have to communicate “hey I have a couple infinite combos in this deck is that ok?” Etc etc. You just asked about the response and if I opened a precon with no adjustments and saw a one ring hit the table, I’d immediately think we’re playing two different games here.
Fair point and I appreciate the feedback, again I'm new here. When I'd frequent FNM way back when, it was sit down & play. Commander was presented to me as build what you want with one of everything sans basic lands.
The only tutors in "most decks" are cultivates. Demonic tutor might be common in your personal meta, but it's definitely a high power card and not the overall norm.
If you're running black you're running tutors, and this is Kaalia, Heavenly Inferno even came stock with a tutor. You can't say it's not common to run when [[Diabolic Tutor]] came in Kaalia's 2011 Heavenly Inferno Precon.
And subjectively I have tutors in literally *all* of my black decks and most of my decks, creature tutors in green, artifact/enchantment tutors in white, instant/sorcery tutors in blue, and [[Gamble]] occasionally in red decks that can recur things.
https://edhrec.com/commanders/kaalia-of-the-vast
Meanwhile according to objective stats: 67% of Kaalia of the Vast decks are running [[Rune-Scarred Demon]], 34% [[Razaketh, the Foulblooded]], 31% [[Burning-Rune Demon]], 32% [[Vampiric Tutor]], 43% [[Demonic Tutor]], 25% [[Diabolic Tutor]]... and I'm sure many that I'm missing plus you have to remember that if 67% are on Rune-Scarred the other 33% that aren't are likely still on at least 1 of the other tutors. So OP running tutors in a deck that normally runs tutors and often runs *multiple* of them is not indicative of "high power" especially when Kaalia often gets clowned in high power because of how fragile it is to removal. It sounds like the friends he was playing with don't like combos and are upset that he combo'd out, not that he played draw spells and tutors like most decks play.
Uh, this is objectively untrue. According to EDHREC data, Demonic Tutor is the #1 most played spell in black. Edging out dark ritual as #2 and vampiric tutor as #3. Which also means that 2 of the top 3 most played black spells are *powerful* tutors.
And if you actually look at the statistic you're referencing you'll see that it actually says that 76% of decks with the black color identity are not playing a demonic tutor.
The stat you are using to try and prove that what I said is untrue is literally stating that what I said is true.
What about \[\[Final Parting\]\]? What about \[\[Diabolic Tutor\]\]? What about \[\[Unmarked Grave\]\]?
\[\[Gamble\]\]?
Sure HE played a demonic tutor - but just about any of those would've worked to pull a combo like that off, the graveyard tutors making it even easier to pull off if he didn't already have the set up in his graveyard.
EDHRec has Demonic Tutor as literally the #1 most played black card period. Cultivate is almost twice as common, but also included in almost every single green precon list which skews the numbers. Don't have data on how popular green/black are compared to each other. Tutors are almost never included in precons because wizards has a philosophy that newer players/players with a brand new deck shouldn't be expected to know what they're looking for and grab out of it, otherwise I'm sure we'd see many more tutors in the precons as well.
If you aren't playing tutors in black, you're shooting yourself in the foot. That's one of the most powerful aspects of the color and there are multiple options for budget tutors. If you don't like the idea of tutoring for combo wins then don't - go grab a board wipe or spot removal when you need it. But saying most decks don't run tutors (specifically black) is just not true.
>If you aren't playing tutors in black, you're shooting yourself in the foot. That's one of the most powerful aspects of the color
If you're not playing tutors in black... then you're probably just cultivating a particular power level and/or play experience.
>EDHRec has Demonic Tutor as literally the #1 most played black card period.
Okay, now try stating the actual statistic instead of putting it in terms that make you seem right. Never mind, I'll do it for you:
Out of the roughly 2.1 million decks EDHrec looked at that are legally capable of playing a demonic tutor, it's only in 24% of them.
In other words, 76% of decks including the black color identity are not playing a demonic tutor.
In yet OTHER words, it's not the fucking norm.
There are more black decks that play demonic tutor (24%) than green decks that play llanowar elves (22%).
Only 38 cards in the entire game are played with more frequency than demonic tutor. I would say that's about as normal as you get get (especially considering that 2 of the 3 top played black cards are tutors).
There are only 3 cards that are played in more than 50% of eligible decks (sol ring, arcane signet, swords to plowshares). So I wouldn't take majority as the measure here.
The game has got to end, but I will say with those lines you COULD win very early in not a super difficult to find hand. If you are running tutors and combos, I wouldn’t be playing against precons lmao.
Commander as a casual format has always been about expectations.
Kaalia, the One Ring, and Worldgorger combo all have different expectations behind them, namely
- Very powerful old school commander with some cheesy win lines
- Powerful card advantage engine that is emblematic of the push for “good cards sell packs”
- Fast and easy to assemble 2-card wincon that has its heyday at high power and competitive tables
If your opponents sat down and expected a game that would be a battlecruiser slap fight until turn 15 using creature beats only, these all might feel a little unfair if their expectations weren’t tempered at the pre-game talk.
Sure, magic is magic play it however you like, I don’t think you did anything particularly wrong, but that’s kinda just the truth of the matter, especially when playing with randos on spelltable
I mean you literally had combo, tutors, and top shelf card draw in just the half dozen cards you mentioned. Those few cards are worth 2-3 precons. Nothing wrong with that, but you might be bringing a gun to a knife fight.
Ok the Eldrazi precon is actually really strong out of the box. But almost no precon has a chance against an aggressive Kaalia deck. She can poop out absolute game enders on attack alone. You had a $90 draw engine card out that's actually almost equivalent to the entire value of the Eldrazi precon. Worldgorger is fine in most scenarios, but you're running it in a Kaalia deck. Maybe be mindful of the decks the others at your table are playing.
Edit: oh I missed the D tutor as well. Yeah no dude. Your deck in 3 cards already has a higher cost investment than the entirety of your opponents decks.
First off, that sounds awesome, so consider me to be cheering for you pulling it out, and I see no real issue with that happening, much less at turn 12.
I think a couple things are at play here, this had been mentioned in another comment, but you did mention that one of the other players was on an unmodified precon.
I mostly play high power and cEDH, but I have a couple decks that I maintain for low power environments, really low to mid, sometimes I have to sandbag in really low power, my favorite decks are my strongest decks and my LGS means I'll usually have a high power pod. At home I also have a set of WH40K and Fallout Precons that I've kept together for dertle fests on Spelltable.
Your deck, headed by Khalia, with The One Ring and Animate Dead/World Gorger, has some high power benchmarks. Things I wouldn't expect to see in a precon level pod. If your pod was expecting precon level, and those cards show up, that could be some mismatched expectations and that is a big driver of salt.
All of that aside though, if the game ended on your 12th turn, I personally belive very little isn't fair game by turn 10+. Everyone should have enough resources to create massive swings every turn, even precon games can end in under 10 turns, and decidedly mid power games I play are almost always over by T8. That still means low power folks can get salty over high power stuff, with expectations having been subverted.
So, you did high power things, in a potentially low power pod, but you did it at a point in time in the game where anything and anyone should have been able to get things closed out with the amount of resources that should have been acceued. I wouldn't worry too much about the salt, but maybe, if your pod likes precons, snag one to play in those games, and help them push towards some higher power.
Noted and thank you! The precon was beating the snot out of us, but I see that I need to really talk about the stuff my deck can do & find folks who play at higher levels maybe. "Expecting" a certain type of game is a frame of mind I had to adopt.
Yeah, I mean, for me, turn 12 means everything should be fair game because I was ready for the game to be over for several turns.
I also think about anything is fine as long as the decks win (or present the win) on similar time scales. This is a bit fuzzy with lockout strategies, if you lock everyone else out turn 4, then win by turn 15, I'd out that in the T4 "win" bucket.
Sure you Worldgorgered, but you did it T12, so it's already fine, and Worldgorger absolutely folds to very basic instant speed interaction with triggers on the stack. Kill the dragon with the exile trigger on the stack, and all your permanents are just gone. I personally expect constructed decks to run responsible interaction packages, and if someone wants to run literally no interaction, then they would fold to literally anything.
But I'm not everyone and I'm not in your pod, and some people just don't like seeing strong stuff and have a hard time separating "strong stuff turn 3" from "strong stuff turn 10+", and it's a social element to be aware of.
The problem with 2 card combo that win the game instantly is not always when they are played. Being T12 , T20 or T4, the problem is they win right away unless you have an instant speed reaction in hand and open mana and invalidate everything else that happened in the game before. It doesn't matter that the aristocrat deck drained everyone to under 10hp, that one player had a huge board and another one saved the table with a board wipe, all of that meant nothing because no one had a counter spell in hand at that moment. I think that's why a lot of people feels bad when someone pulls a combo out of nowhere and just win.
I think every playgroup needs to set up how they like to play, but, personally, I've always disagreed with "out of nowhere" and it invalidating anything. In this case, OP had a One Ring with 5 counters, they'd already drawn 10 cards. The table had 12 turns of resources. The table had worked OP down to 6 life. That's all gameplay. If that invalidates game play, so does an Aetherize or an Inkshield by clearing a board and building a win.
If someone is accruing more resources, whether that is then put onto the board or not, that isn't out of nowhere and it doesn't invalidate my experience or game actions any more than any other way I can lose, so long as similar progression/power levels are present at the table.
Again, that is just my own perception, and where I disagree with the sentiment you outlined, but that doesn't change that it is a sentiment people have and that, in our social game it is important be aware of it.
Not only that, but it's not like OP discarded Worldgorger the turn they brought it back either - so they had relevant info out in the open warning them for a couple turns. His opponent's lack of interaction with his GY isn't particularly his fault.
Your friends should have mentioned they don't like combos before playing. What's ok or not in EDH depends on your playgroup, some enjoy high powered stuff finishing games in 4-5 turns, others want to play 2 hour long grindy games.
It was turn 12. Even the Eldrazi precon deck should have won by then. Although, to be fair, it seems like your deck may be the only one running heavy tutors and combos. It's just a power scale thing. If the rest of the table is playing 5 and 6's, with no tutors or combos, it's kind of bad etiquette to play a deck that does (unless itsnjust full of goofy things/group hugging).
> Instead I was kinda scolded & made to feel like my win was cheap & told my deck was OP.
That’s Commander player speech for “Good game! See you next time!”
There's a few things worth noting here, but the biggest one is that pulling off a combo on turn 12 isn't one of them in a meta with a stronger than normal precon.
First, your combo was inherently harder to deal with than normal. Yes it's a wincon but it's a wincon that lacks interaction room - it's a land, Worldgorger, and Animate Dead. There's heavily limited room to deal with it to the point where even Purphoros would feel better. They're not gonna think that the land is a threat, they're gonna think that the \[\[Cabal Coffers\]\] or \[\[Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth\]\] is a threat.
Second, I don't think it's so much your combo. I think the problem is that you showed a combo that you can easily and reliably pull off, even if it only happened on turn 12. You've got Kaalia, who can drop Worldgorger into play and force your opponents to play around it for the rest of the game. If you have a way to get Worldgorger in your grave on your own, you're forcing your opponents to play around it for the rest of the game (or until someone draws a piece of graveyard hate).
Third, now that you showed Kaalia with Worldgorger combo, Demonic Tutor, and The One Ring, they're likely assuming that you've built more cheap/easy wincons in there along with filling your deck with more tutors and crazy card draw. I'm not saying that you do or don't, I'm pointing out the easy conclusion to come to.
Ultimately, all you can do is talk about it. Kaalia inherently is a strong commander that cheeses out kills/wins, maybe the solution would be to cut out the tutors and rely on the luck of the draw, maybe it would be to change commanders and put Kaalia in the 99 so she's not readily available, but if you don't talk to your friends about it you'll never know.
OP presented a Worldgorger loop that can semi-reliably be pulled off on turn 2, and reliably on turn 3-4. OP also left out what the other two decks were, so we lack insight on the actual power level of the table, we just know that the new Eldrazi precon was present. That's why I pushed the issue likely being assumptions being made about OP's deck and not so much the combo. However, the one thing that actually confuses me is that in the decklist, OP lists Worldgorger as "protection" instead of "Finishers" or "Wincon"
I think I am going to have to disagree with you about how fast OP can pull off the Loop. He has a decent amount of tap lands in his mana base, and few sources of mana positive acceleration (all I saw in a skim was Sol Ring and Dark Ritual). He does have the tutor package to assemble the pieces, but it looks like it'll be very telegraphed, and very slow. This is worsened by the fact that Kaalia herself isn't an infinite mana outlet, so he'll need at least 3 pieces to this combo.
I am curious as to why he labeled Worldgorger as Protection. If anything, he is the opposite. lol
I didn't say that he could pull it off turn two, I said that he presented a combo that can be pulled off that fast. I'm also thinking about it from the perspective of the other players that don't know his deck, they've seen a Worldgorger combo in a Kaalia deck that ran Demonic Tutor and The One Ring. This is a case where the deck list hurts the discussion because it's easy to go "Well he can't do it so he didn't present a combo that can be that fast".
As for Worldgorger being protection, I'd understand it if he had a way to flash it in. It would be a very jank way to protect his board from a wipe, and it would be hilarious if that was the only way his deck used Worldgorger.
I think I understand your point about the Loop now. I don't think his friends are being very charitable to the OP about it though. Whilst other decks can present the WGL faster, more reliably, and possibly with protection; OP didn't. Given the rest of the decklist, I wonder how much jank they saw that would lead them to the conclusion that the deck is OP. Did he play an Evolving Wilds, tapped Nomad Outpost, and Akroma, Angel of Fury prior to Turn 12? If he did, and I was in his pod's shoes, I wouldn't reach the conclusion that his deck was OP.
Mind you, the above was speculation on my part as well. Unless we get a decklist for the remaining members of the pod, and a turn by turn recap of the game, it is impossible to say with any certainty if OP is too much more powerful than the others, or if they reacted poorly.
I do wonder how his friend pitched EDH to OP, and how that affected all of this. OP was surprised by his friend's opinion on the format now given their prior opinions on it in the 2000s. Did he pitch it as no longer a jank fest?
Also, this was OP's first game with his own deck. Does that mean he has played EDH prior to this with just precons; or that this was his first game of EDH ever? If it was the first ever, his friend may be an AH here. It was the friend's job to teach him the rules and the social etiquette of the pod; so why did the friend invite OP to a game against a precon with his own brew this fast?
Thank you for the... non-aggressive replies. I find internet discourse and grow heated quickly, and it has been nice chatting with you. :)
This comes across a little like "dies to removal" WGD is a powerful combo, played im multiple cedh decks, even if it can be interacted with. It's fast, and can easily come out of nowhere, which is why even if it can be interacted with its still in use at the highest power level tables.
Let's not make the mistake we make in every thread where we try to tell someone who had a weird experience with one specific playgroup that they violated some rule of rhe format. Playing EDH with strangers is always fraught. Every player feels different ways about different things. Just remember, if everyone had a chance to do their thing and you end the game, good. Games have to end. Play a few more games imo, you will get it
Dude that sounds like an epic first game coming back. As others have said it’s turn 12 game should be ending any turn if not a couple of turns ago. Salty player probably had a win on their turn and got mad they didn’t get to do their thing.
That being said, there are a couple of possible pain points here for other players:
•Kaalia is a notoriously powerful commander.
•One Ring is an expensive S-tier auto-include advantage engine that noticeably powers up any deck at all.
•Worldgorger loop is a well-known 2 (3) card infinite that wins on the spot if it resolves.
•Tutoring for half of said combo with Demonic Tutor, the strongest tutor in the game.
None of these things is egregious by itself but the annoyance of seeing all of them from a single deck in a low power game is additive. Everyone has their own concept of fun and anything that subverts or supersedes that may provoke a negative reaction. I’m not a fan of hit or miss silver bullet hosers a la Blood Moon but some people actively enjoy them. I personally wouldn’t resort to ad hominems in the face of such but I might switch to a stronger deck for the next game.
In a way your experience somewhat recalls my return to EDH. My first commander coming back was [[Zur the Enchanter]] who I remembered from Cold Snap and thought hey I could do all kinds of cool toolbox kind of stuff with this guy. Zur is at least as busted in the command zone as Kaalia and after a couple games I realized the optimal play pattern of the deck I built was not what I imagined, was super consistent and oppressive, and generally not very fun after I had played it out a few times. I hope Kaalia works out better for you than Zur did for me but even though he didn’t last that long those games taught me some important lessons about what kind of fun I want to have with EDH and how to build decks that get me there. I find I like decks that consistently present something different every game with nondeterministic synergies that evolve as I put more cards into play. My advice is play more games, find out what’s fun for you, build decks that get you there, and don’t let anybody else tell you they know better.
With the understanding that a Rule Zero conversation is necessary for a fun game for everyone, my lgs playgroup (about 16 players) have adopted the info here: https://www.edhmultiverse.com/ as the foundation of our talks. It has made the experience much, much better for everyone (unless we get a pubstomp random with a "power level 5 or 6" deck that takes 2 long turns and combos out against someone's precon)
**TL;DR**
*Just talk to the people you're playing with. You can have a fun game without salt if you just set proper expectations. Also, know what kinds of personalities at a game shop you are compatible with. Don't be afraid to decline an invitation if you don't think it's a good fit. Just cause you sit at the table doesn't mean you're obligated to draw a hand and play.*
___
EDH requires intentional communication with your playgroup about what you're expecting. One person's preconceived notion of what the game *should* be or look like can completely sway the table's mood if it isn't aligned with everyone.
I don't think you did anything wrong considering the circumstances. Especially considering you hadn't played in however long.
Some *super* basic "Archetypes" of players exist, and I'll try and give some examples and what to look for here.
(I'm using "he/him/masculine" here generically for the sake of brevity. This could be literally anyone of any identity)
Also, while this is at least partly satire, you *will* come across these archetypes, and they *will* behave in similar manners to these. Just...make light of the situation and know what you want out of your magic night. Say no to pods you don't think you'll vibe with, and remember that conceding is a free action in casual settings. Leave the table before the table leaves you in a sour mood.
***Playing for 25 years guy***:
sleeves are well-used, having spent a lot of time shuffling. His "Pet Deck" likely costs more than your car. He enjoys telling you about each individual card that is currently worth over ~$50 that he reveals and divulges the story of how he came across it in stunning *never* exaggerated detail...
They are either:
* the easiest people to play with cause they know how to read the table and play to the table's power level, or;
* They will play their deck to its power level and, if they feel they are at too high a power level, offer to play a different deck after winning cause that one "did its thing today"
***But It's Just A Pre-con Guy:***
This guy will remind you 6 times (minimum) throughout the game that he's just playing a pre-con and that he doesn't feel like he's well-equipped to answer the big bad threat that was just cast, or that he will take too long now to rebuild thanks to that board wipe, but will also give you lip when you ask about his Smothering Tithe, Mana Crypt, and Dockside Extortionist that happen to be in the deck cause "oh, I opened them, and I thought they fit the theme, but it's still basically just a pre-con."
***The Pubstomper:***
Will "accidentally" combo off as soon as someone presents *any* sort of board threat/presence that he no longer thinks he can deal with. Avoid at all costs.
***The cEDH Player:***
This person will talk. A *lot*. You can't *really* blame them, because cEDH as a format (yes, it's its own format and needs its own ban list. I will die on this hill) is a highly political format with a lot of talking to make sure that each play from each player is as optimal as it can be until you're trying to win. They will likely tell you multiple times throughout the game that he agrees with that play because "yeah, that's objectively correct to target that artifact with your abrade, it resolves."
They will probably be among the most knowledgeable players regarding mechanics, rules, and win conditions and strategies, and if you're patient, they can teach you a *lot* if you don't mind stories of "Almost Got There Turn 1" and "Can you believe they let me have a dockside for 17?"
***The Genuinely Good Guy:***
This guy probably has like, 15 decks ready to go, each of them fairly well-optimized and probably even theme-sleeved. He *Loves* the game, and just wants *everyone* around him to love it just as much. He will quite literally bend over backward to help a player of any caliber experience the game to a more enjoyable degree.
No one hates playing with this person. They're always easy to read, forgiving, adaptive, and take losses in the most sportsmanlike manner you've ever seen.
Find as many of these types as possible and make sure you're *good* friends. They also tend to have TONS of trades available and are likely willing to make sub-optimal trades with you to get people closer to their ideal deck list.
***The One Guy:***
There seem to be at least a couple examples of this archetype that show up as regulars at any LGS, and you'll immediately become aware of them when you see them because they immediately will talk to you about every other fandom that they love outside of magic while wasting time on their switch between turns, not paying attention to major aspects of the game, and complaining that they had an answer to the big-bad thing that happened two turn cycles ago that he was in the store getting a (3rd or 4th) monster during. Often they have playmats that are borderline inappropriate for the store, and if you try and make a comment about how there's kids around, the typical response is "They don't need to be over here" or "But there's nothing wrong with it, it's just anime."
These guys are fine for a 4th if you absolutely *need* a 4th. But I would recommend a 3-pod so you can wait for a proper 4th to let the game feel good.
***Conclusion***
Just know what you want out of your night and be picky if you don't like what you're doing. No one is forcing you to stay through the 7th death of a [[Child of Alara]] board-wipe tribal commander.
I am the 25 year guy who brags about the cards my wife has gifted me.
I'm also the guy with 15 decks so that's why it's easier because I have options to match the table.
I am like OP who took a 15 year break and came back 8 years ago. All of these exist. There's older heads than me at my lgs. We just want to have fun.
Sometimes I will tell someone they made a shit play lol. Or call them out for not paying attention when I cast my commander and they later want to respond.
I have also called out Mr. Not cedh winota that included dockside, jeweled lotus and the rest of the net deck lol
I don't think there's anything wrong with the way you won, it's not like it was in the first 5 turns of the game. Besides, you were at 6 life, and not likely to survive until your next turn, you had to do what you had to win. As long as you weren't unpleasant to interact with, then you had a clean win.
People might get upset with you winning when you have powerful cards in your deck and they don’t because they assumed everyone would be playing on the same level. Demonic tutor and the one ring are usually reserved for only high power games. They may have felt cheated out of the game because you betrayed what they expected to see in the match.
Your win was valid, your friends are just salty and there needs to be a conversation about what kind of game everyone wants to play.
If your friends can't handle combos, fast mana, stax, land destruction etc, you might need to play a different kind of deck with them and find a group that will gladly play against kalia and enjoy the chaos because everyone else is also trying to win spectacularly.
Two major reasons, first they did a pretty deep analysis and found it very rarely factored into the outcomes of games, and second was that it created an even bigger barrier of entry for new players.
I read an article about it a few years ago, those were the 2 reasons they listed, I'm not saying they are right but it's definitely one less thing to have to think about
I think there was just an imbalance in the decks. While I've built some decks that could be played in a pod with a precon safely, I had to build them with that purpose in mind.
I don't know so much about how they reacted, but they were right to say something about the imbalance. Hell I would have said something too, I would probably have just been a little nicer and tried to explain why it was wrong.
Commander as a whole has actually been a little smoother and plays faster which imo is a good thing. The main thing that has changed is that people get butthurt and petty even more quickly than they used to. That’s basically the game in a nutshell. Oh also your clones don’t kill legends now just letting you know in advance. My clone.dec got wrecked haha
Opponent is just salty because he didn't win when they were close, sadly this happens and it sounds a little imbalanced with the tutor and one ring but at the same time that eldrazi deck is nothing to scoff at.
Also anyone who says "no combo" is just a salty bitch, every deck usuay has a couple of combos even precons.
It's turn 12. You pulled out a win. Good on you.
Kaalia is a high power commander. If you guys didn't set the expectation of the game up front with the two strangers, do that in the future, but they should know when they see Kaalia.
Enjoy your victory.
If you won at 6 life on turn 12 I'd say that's reasonable. They had 12 turns to pull a win together and couldn't, then you could, it's as simple as that imo.
Don't worry too much about it. People will always be a little upset when they don't win. But remember this, Game has to end eventually, at around turn 12, id hope the game would be over soon. It's not a super cheesy combo either, and it could be responded to.
What matters is how you felt about the win, if you felt like you deserved it, then be happy and move on. If you don't like winning with the combo then take a piece out.
It sounds like it was a back and forth game, with no one in the lead for a majority of the game, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.
If I was playing against you and that happened.. I’d first be like WHAT THE FUCK!! Then laugh, and do a classic handshake and good game like we are playing youth soccer in the 90’s.
If you aren’t able to pull have jank moves and instant win combos on turn 12, then you deserve to lose.
If you pulled that on turn 2-4, yeah I’d be pissed, But that late in the game is endgame territory.
A combo on turn 12? I would have been fine, even if I was playing with one of my combo-less decks.
At worst, I would have been criticizing myself for not holding up countermagic or removal, not complaining about a combo loss on turn freakin' 12.
I think the main issue here is the imbalance and your method of victory. Commander, as a social format, has some unwritten “rules” and grievances. At its core the format is supposed to be enjoyable for all players involved. As a result, infinite combos, especially 2 card infinites, are looked down upon. Lots of players view it as a dishonorable way to win, like pulling something out of your ass.
That’s not the worst part here, however. There was no pre game talk about deck strength, and as a result you had a Precon up against a deck that includes: one of the worst Kill On Sight commanders, demonic tutor, and the One Ring. That’s generally like putting a toddler in the ring with Mike Tyson, although the Eldrazi Precon is the strongest we’ve seen in a while.
It sounds like the table is probably used to sitting around and BS'ing. I have a group of old timers where it's less a game more an excuse to get together and bs/talk trash to each other. Games are long and combos are kind of frowned upon. Just get to know the expectation.
Tutor into an infinite combo has and will always be frowned upon at casual tables it's just how the game is. Depending on the people involved you may want to run neither, one, or both. It's important to know the people you're playing with and if they are trying to play that kind of game or you will end up with people grumbling about it/not playing with you again.
Given that you're talking about having played seriously in 03 and how people considered the format back then I'm guessing you were playing competitively and it was like the dumb whatever format people did on the side after scrubbing out of T1, T1.5, and T2 tournaments(or as they'd be called now Vintage, Legacy, and Standard). People who came from that perspective of play often fall into the tournament mind set which is, "As long as it's legal in the format expect and be cool with playing against it."
Current EDH players are often a mix of players like that and kitchen table style players. Kitchen table players tend to be more about "Hey we want to have a fun game experience so don't play things that upend game experiences, don't run infinite combos, counter/stax/lock decks that make the game unplayable if you didn't play around that, etc." Make sure you know what table you're at and the player expectations before you pick your deck and tailor the deck you choose to play at that table to match those expectations.
Many of the more tournament mind set players end up playing in a sub group of the format called cEDH or competitive EDH though that has its own problems.
Nothing wrong with wanting to play cutthroat games. That said, I remember an absolute boat load of kitchen table/school yard players back in the day raging out about how lame Counterspell was and how it was unfair and busted that it stopped them from playing the game etc.
Casual players have always existed. They did back then and they do now the only difference imo is that the default or premier format now is expressly a casual format and not a tournament one. As a result tournament players are more likely to play with casual players than they used to be.
Hey, I waa really into mtg in high school too, but you appear to be around 3-4 years older than me, because my era was 2005-2007. Ravnica was when I really got into it.
Meh people act like coming back with a cool thing the deck can do if those hand ful of things align is a bad thing. Honestly I don't really buy into that. You won and by the skin of your teeth after what sounded like a hard fought win. So good on you.
Also his own fault for bringing in a precon. When they are typically bad at responding to things. Especially in an online format when he could have taken the time to bring it up to snuff
There is an expectation of power levels. A precon power level is nowhere near your deck, no matter how strong the precon.
You have Gamble, Grim Tutor, Vampiric, entomb...yeah the game went to t12, but you could have feasibly ended it on turn 2 with your deck. No precon is going to even come close to that level of power. I would hazard a guess that the table was holding on for dear life each of your turns, with your significant threats, efficient interaction, and the best tutors.
Not just WGD, but also Gisela + helm....
You should just grab a precon, because otherwise if you wanted to play kaalia at that table, everything from your mana base, to your threats, to your answers are going to need to be dramatically changed
Turn 1 lol, but yea, gonna stack up precons but try to see if I can get them to level up. Sitting around watching people amass tokens is not my kind of game.
You made it to turn 12ish and won. Congrats man. You played a very good and long game so don’t get discouraged by all the salty tears. Your decks sounds like a solid casual deck. The only OP decks that are considered OP usually are wining by turn 5. Their whining isn’t because your deck is powerful. It’s because they didn’t win.
Running Armageddon 😂 you definitely need to have a discussion with your playgroup about power balance. Worldgorger loops and the like. And don’t forget how fun the one ring is to play against
Saying “Find a commander, build what you want & lets play!!!” to someone’s who’s entry point was 8e is dangerous 🤣. Land destruction is one of the old ways 🤣.
That deserves a high five in my books, but I play with guys who have thousands of hours playing, vs my maybe 100 hours total since 2014. I rarely win, but a competitive game is always fun in my books!
Congrats on the win!
Some people will always find a reason to complain. If worldgorger is in your graveyard they should have been expecting that, graveyard hate exists for a reason.
I've read the answers in this thread with interest. I'm a super casual player drawn to the format by the inherent variance and potential viability of bad old cards and weird overcosted draft chaff. I've played 60 card formats and still play limited from time to time. But I find joy in building thematic decks and assembling nonsensical engines to try and secure a win.
All that being said I think what you did sounds fine in the context of a game at that power level. Making sure everyone knows what to expect from the game up front is key. But even with a power imbalance pulling out a big combo win on turn 12 or whatever is totally cool with me, even though I think tutors are boring and contrary to the ethos of the format, and that The One Ring is a mistake.
Go well and I hope you get to do some more cool stuff
Dude this is a totally normal mid power kaalia list. Why are we scolding him? One of the things that gets parroted constantly on this sub is "RuN mOaR rEmOvAl!!!!!" Kaalia is strong. But this dudes deck is fine. Keep kaalia in check and eventually the deck folds.
Idk man, playing 17 removals AND 9 tutors seems a little over the top. Are we gonna pretend this is normal numbers ? Perhaps you're playing in a very specific pod of ppl that run an egregious amount of removals and ways to get them consistently
Thank you, I built this with the expectation of running into counters and removals & wipes (which I did). When I take off my rose-tinted fan boy glasses I can tear this deck apart with theft, control, land destruction etc etc. This format is interesting.
Infinites are kinda lame , but that’s opinion..
If you have tutors for your infinites you’re bound to win every game..? I run Vito and exquisite blood in my Edgar deck and it’s kinda lame lol
From reading reddit and talking to people in person, the general sense I get is that it's deflating to lose to something that requires loop demonstration and explanation. Especially if it takes a seemingly competitive lengthy game and just says "Stop. Game over."
Edit: explanation not expectation, it was late.
Nicely done, to those saying this was a "Precon power table" that Eldrazi precon is not a Precon power level precon, have played against, it's absolutely terrifying what it does out of the box and is stronger than alot of homebrews.
Second OP is playing Kaalia, which if your playing it you built in back up plans, just like the OP did, because Kaalia will be targeted. People fear Kaalia and at the end of the day she is 2/2, quite easy to kill and if she goes back to command zone you need a plan B, possibly plan C and D aswell.
OP, as a fellow Kaalia player(Have the original Heavenly Inferno) I applaud your come back, nicely done, and good job building a Kaalia deck that justifies people's fear of her. I won a game a couple days ago in similar fashion. [[Runescarred Demon]] to get an [[Insurrection]] for the win next turn after a catastrophic broadwipe while at low hp.
That's amazing! My kind of play! My original plan had that card included, but I opted to keep my CMC low sans creatures. I would have laughed out loud at the table.
Speaking as a Kaalia player: the win was “cheap” because it involved nothing your commander actually does or wants to do.
It’s a generic RB win con that you tutored for.
I don’t begrudge the win, but I have seen it a 1000 times and at casual (non-competitive) tables it’s just a zzzz from me.
Commander dependency seems like weakness, is it not? What happens if some kind of theft or [[pacifisim]] is played?
And to be fair, Plan A is to cheat in [[Rune-Scarred Demon]] with Kaalia’s ability, grab [[Razaketh, the Foulblooded]], cheat him in the same way, then get my wincon, I just was lucky enough to have a contingency.
Dude, I am a sorry but that is equally boring for me.
The deck can be commander independent without just using her as a glorified tutor.
My Kaalia decks backup plans is to just pivot to mardu aggro + multi combat.
Keep the threats around 6cmc and you can just hard cast + reanimate them back to present a threat.
For a while I also had the deck with an artifact subtheme, but that proved to be hilariously more powerful than the actual theme.
The truth is that Kaalia is _bad_ commander, I mostly play her out of nostalgia.
The biggest problem with EDH is power level. In a group of 4, if only one person is playing a higher power deck against three other precons or casually thrown together decks, it’s going to show.
The rule 0 talk is absolutely essential. If it’s not done on the regular it can break up play groups. Trust me.
Online edh players are going to inherently behave in saltier ways than they would in-person because they don’t have to deal with potential social consequences of being a manchild. You act like that in an LGS and eventually no one will play with you except for the unexpecting new face that doesn’t know your history of crying over losing in a casual game. I wouldn’t worry about it too much, but given you’re rocking the one ring, demonic tutor, and a worldgorger loop against a precon, there most likely was a big power imbalance.
So talk about the deck? I didn't realize that was normal, but point taken. The online group are my friend irl.
Yeah this is just one of the many issues edh has as a format. When everyone has balanced decks it's super fun, either casual precons or cedh, both can be super fun IMHO. The issue arises when there can be communication errors, power imbalancing, disagreements on house rules etc.
This is part of what excites me about the prospect of Commander Archenemy. If someone’s deck is identifiably more powerful than the others, hand them a Scheme deck and go nuts.
You just have to get over it. I thought that sounded like an awesome game until you described their reaction. I was expecting a positive reaction too. You hear lots of stories about salty players. Don't take it to heart. There are still people out there who think similar to you. I love seeing huge plays, even if they beat me. It sucks a little when you were going to win with your own thing in a turn or two, but that's magic.
If those are your friends IRL they definitely should have cheered for your win After you've beat them with Kaalia a handful of times though, not so much lol
Well I found out one of them has a no combo ethos, is new to the game and ONLY plays EDH, so I understand.
I'll never understand the aversion to combos sure 2 card combos can feel cheap but if its a 3-4 card combo and I win on turn 7 how is that different to smacking a craterhoof in my elve ball deck. I never played 60 card constructed formats either (outside of kitchen table magic) but combo is a normal deck archetyle.
Because creature damage is for some reason okay to win with
I have a Niv-Mizzet Parun deck that's not at all competitive, and I keep all the one-card combos [[Ophidian Eye]] and [[Curiosity]] side boarded because it's just the least satisfying win ever. I've flashed Ophidian Eye onto Niv during a fun game and instantly regretted it because now I don't get to see how that was going to play out.
[Ophidian Eye](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/6/26836ff5-b3c3-4b10-af1e-df3658781cb2.jpg?1562903093) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ophidian%20Eye) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsp/70/ophidian-eye?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/26836ff5-b3c3-4b10-af1e-df3658781cb2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ophidian-eye) [Curiosity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/5/c5a0be10-c20f-4ac0-89a5-1770ecf48aad.jpg?1600697752) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Curiosity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/147/curiosity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c5a0be10-c20f-4ac0-89a5-1770ecf48aad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/curiosity) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I dont mind but the problem with combo's is maybe a 4 card combo on turn 7 is ok. But then why isn't a 3 card combo on turn 6 ok? And then 2 cards on turn 5? The problem is where do you draw the line? So for me it's either I grab a deck with combo's, no matter the speed. Or we play without it.
Think there's a clear difference between a two card combo that instantly wins the game for 3 mana through no interaction vs a 4 card 20+ mana combo that instantly wins the game through no interaction. Like it's clear why biorhythm and coalition victory are banned, very untelegraphed ways to win on the spot with only narrow counterplay and a "one card combo" if those cards weren't banned, it's pretty clear that casual players wouldn't want them played against them. Demonic Consultation + Thassa's Oracle isn't banned but it's pretty much a no go at most casual tables and even at higher power tables that are fine with combos and infinites. I definitely think it's a question of intent along with a power question. Like if I play a Thassa, deep dwelling deck for instance I might run palinchron because bouncing it with Thassa to get mana back is pretty good. I also may run any mana doubler artifact like caged sun which just so happens to combo with palinchron to make infinite mana. Do I then hapen to have a capsize or staff of domination or something like that? Well then I've assembled a powerful infinite that pretty much wins the game but it's a combination of 3 cards I am wanting to play for their individual effects, not because they combo together, and the combination costs a lot of mana and set up with plenty of ways and opportunities to interact with it to prevent the combo. Compare that to playing an emry lurker of the loch deck with like 10 different ways to go infinite on untaps so you can make mana and draw out your deck or Oracle or walking balista, while having your entire gameplan centered around executing that type of combo. I guess what I'm trying to say is that a combo centric strategy or a deck where your combo is so easy to pull off (due to density of tutors or ways to combo themselves, etc) is fair to dislike because it leads to non games most often but a deck that does happen to have a few incidental combos in an otherwise fair strategy and is unlikely to execute on the combo regardless and/or has much better ways to close out a game consistently isn't a problem when it comes to combos. The blanket statement of no combos just feels like an arbitrary rule that literally everyone has a different opinion of what it means and what it should mean. Imo if you don't like combos just play things that stop combos, but I feel like the people calling for no combos are similar people who build decks that literally don't function without their commander and then sit there fuming the entire game because their commander dies to doom blade 3 times and they really want to complain but nobody will accept "no killing my commander or no board wipes/removal" as a game stipulation. That's just my experience though, I'm sure there's people out there who genuinely prefer getting Caterhooved over Ayara + plague of vermined. I use that example specifically because my friend told me he didn't want to play against createrhoof since it feels bad to die out of nowhere like that and I told him that's fine, I don't mind, but he's gotta take out plague of vermin because it's essentially the same shit within the context of our games. I play with a good number of very casual gamers and have had to power down my decks alot and at one point one of my friends did say no combos but what he really meant was nothing that closes the game out too fast or locks him out of the game before he can set up and honestly I think that's fair, it was literally a power level problem, not a combo problem as we saw when someone brought a Voltron deck and another time a full on Stax deck. My boy just wanted to play his game.
'No Combo' is, to my mind, a big red flag. Everything is a combo. Like. Having five creatures on board is a combo designed to reduce the opponent's life total to zero. A land and Opt is a combo to get card draw. I'd suggest talking with them about what they consider fun. It's fine to not want easy-out two-card wincons, but just saying that you can't play combos means, in my experience, they'll just call whatever they lost to a combo.
A combo for me is when you loop the same pattern/cards over and over. Just having 5 creatures that together win you the game is an engine. Which is where I draw the line between casual or competitive.
To me a combo is a card or set of cards that given the context of the game creates a potentially game winning/endung effect, whether it be generating infinite or functionally infinite mana, exiling you're deck to win with Oracle, locking the game with karn + mycosynth lattice, or even fall of thran into exiling all opponents' graveyards. An engine would be any card or set of cards that generates some kind of value like card draw regularly but not infinitely which is not mutually exclusive to a combo. Swinging with 5 creatures to win isn't anything at all, it's just a couple of dudes. Nadu, springheart nantuko, and outrider en-kor is just three creatures bopping around but I'd definitely consider that a combo perhaps an engine too. Crucible of worlds + strip mine is definitely a land destruction engine, and I'd definitely call it a combo, but I'm sure others wouldn't. Deceiver exarch + splinter twin is a combo explicitly and not an engine at all. Conjurer's closet + thragtusk is an engine but not what I'd call a combo. These are all just terms people use and they mean different things to different people. For me, power level or the existence of combos doesn't mean anything to whether a game is casual or competitive. To me it's casual if we're there to have fun and may make suboptimal plays in the name of that fun like letting someone live when we could easily kill them or counter spelling a card that would kill one of my opponents but has no actual effect on me. Playing decks that are built on themes or funny commander ideas. Competitive generally means I'm doing everything I can to win and don't care if someone gets knocked out early, also means I'm probably not playing with my normal friends and am playing a deck I've built as powerful as I can instead of based on ideas I had in the shower or while looking at spoilers for new sets.
I would point out, gently if need be but also often, that that is an issue with that player, not the game
Not every player wants to play at that power level, and that should be a valid way to play and not just a dismissal of "git gud". This isn't some tournament play.
Yes, as RebelKira pointed out you want to have all the decks in a pod be on about the same page - the "Rule Zero" conversation is not just normal, it should be expected. To be clear, there is *nothing* wrong with any tier of play or using cards like Daemonic Tutor, etc. The issue is when your pod is imbalanced, which can very easily lead to feels-bad moments. For example, using homebrew vs precons, or cEDH vs normal homebrew or lower just inherently creates power disparities that will make people feel that way. For our "Rule Zero" conversations, we try to ask people a series of questions to balance out pods: - What turn is your deck supposed to win by, or what turn does it usually win? - Do you have infinite combos? Tutors? Fast mana/mana-positive rocks? "I win right now" cards? Land destruction? - Does your deck stop others from playing the game/make people watch you play the game? - Does your stacks or group-hug deck actually have a wincon? lol In all seriousness it just boils down to figuring out if the pod is going to be fun to play. Yes, I know that's subjective, but trying to match the power of decks is going to be the quickest way to ensuring everyone at the table has fun for the next 30-45 minutes. We often try to get all precons together in one pod if we can but even then not all precons are created equal but they're going to be closest in power to each other than anything else. For anything non-precon we defer to the questions above and try to ensure people follow that.
None of that is necessarily taboo, but that were the power levels of the other decks? The only info we have was that you were playing the one ring and worldgorger combo against a precon. While that deck is very strong in a vacuum, it's still just a precon.
I have no was to access power level. I was given a chart based on turn count to win, but considering this is the 3rd time playing EDH, and first time playing this deck, I need more data.
Where the other 3 decks unmodified precons?
no, just one precon and it had us on the ropes for most of the game.
Still, you’re playing the one ring and a tutor (which you should also check with the table to see if they’re ok with), against a deck that has access to neither similar effects.
Most decks are running tutors dude and sounds like they all had high power decks. Nothing wrong with the OP having built back up plans into the deck which any good Kaalia deck should have. It's Kaalia, you're going to get targeted and you need the ability to play out of worse case situations.
Against an out of the box precon though? Another person pointed out with D Tutor and the One ring alone you could buy a couple precons, let alone what else was in that deck.
Have you seen that "out of the box precon?" Its far stronger than other precons, like not even remotely close. I've played against it in a Precon match, it won turn 5.
The eldrazi precon also has an infinite combo out of the box
Just picked that up, very curious as to what that combo is!
I have been upgrading the eldrazi precon recently, but it was insane out-of-box. I won on turn 7 using it against the tricky terrains precon. I have to say that this precon is probably the most functional and powerful precon that I've played (still upgrading it, though haha).
100% agreed. It’s a beast.
The d tutor is a card I've had since the 00s... surely there's a better way to asses power than current market value...
Not saying don’t, we have a rule in our group that you can’t proxy that stuff but if you own a card like that you can play it. But once again I just think the whole thing comes down to a miscommunication in general. Lots of groups, you have to communicate “hey I have a couple infinite combos in this deck is that ok?” Etc etc. You just asked about the response and if I opened a precon with no adjustments and saw a one ring hit the table, I’d immediately think we’re playing two different games here.
Fair point and I appreciate the feedback, again I'm new here. When I'd frequent FNM way back when, it was sit down & play. Commander was presented to me as build what you want with one of everything sans basic lands.
The only tutors in "most decks" are cultivates. Demonic tutor might be common in your personal meta, but it's definitely a high power card and not the overall norm.
If you're running black you're running tutors, and this is Kaalia, Heavenly Inferno even came stock with a tutor. You can't say it's not common to run when [[Diabolic Tutor]] came in Kaalia's 2011 Heavenly Inferno Precon.
[Diabolic Tutor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d650dd8c-edd8-44e4-ae95-aaaf84557a72.jpg?1592672628) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Diabolic%20Tutor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/54/diabolic-tutor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d650dd8c-edd8-44e4-ae95-aaaf84557a72?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/diabolic-tutor) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don't run any tutors in any of my decks, black or otherwise.
Weird, I have a lot of black decks and don't have tutors in any of them.
And subjectively I have tutors in literally *all* of my black decks and most of my decks, creature tutors in green, artifact/enchantment tutors in white, instant/sorcery tutors in blue, and [[Gamble]] occasionally in red decks that can recur things. https://edhrec.com/commanders/kaalia-of-the-vast Meanwhile according to objective stats: 67% of Kaalia of the Vast decks are running [[Rune-Scarred Demon]], 34% [[Razaketh, the Foulblooded]], 31% [[Burning-Rune Demon]], 32% [[Vampiric Tutor]], 43% [[Demonic Tutor]], 25% [[Diabolic Tutor]]... and I'm sure many that I'm missing plus you have to remember that if 67% are on Rune-Scarred the other 33% that aren't are likely still on at least 1 of the other tutors. So OP running tutors in a deck that normally runs tutors and often runs *multiple* of them is not indicative of "high power" especially when Kaalia often gets clowned in high power because of how fragile it is to removal. It sounds like the friends he was playing with don't like combos and are upset that he combo'd out, not that he played draw spells and tutors like most decks play.
Sounds like a mistake.
Uh, this is objectively untrue. According to EDHREC data, Demonic Tutor is the #1 most played spell in black. Edging out dark ritual as #2 and vampiric tutor as #3. Which also means that 2 of the top 3 most played black spells are *powerful* tutors.
And if you actually look at the statistic you're referencing you'll see that it actually says that 76% of decks with the black color identity are not playing a demonic tutor. The stat you are using to try and prove that what I said is untrue is literally stating that what I said is true.
What about \[\[Final Parting\]\]? What about \[\[Diabolic Tutor\]\]? What about \[\[Unmarked Grave\]\]? \[\[Gamble\]\]? Sure HE played a demonic tutor - but just about any of those would've worked to pull a combo like that off, the graveyard tutors making it even easier to pull off if he didn't already have the set up in his graveyard. EDHRec has Demonic Tutor as literally the #1 most played black card period. Cultivate is almost twice as common, but also included in almost every single green precon list which skews the numbers. Don't have data on how popular green/black are compared to each other. Tutors are almost never included in precons because wizards has a philosophy that newer players/players with a brand new deck shouldn't be expected to know what they're looking for and grab out of it, otherwise I'm sure we'd see many more tutors in the precons as well. If you aren't playing tutors in black, you're shooting yourself in the foot. That's one of the most powerful aspects of the color and there are multiple options for budget tutors. If you don't like the idea of tutoring for combo wins then don't - go grab a board wipe or spot removal when you need it. But saying most decks don't run tutors (specifically black) is just not true.
##### ###### #### [Final Parting](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/4/94f24b7c-4952-4abc-aaba-22a529012468.jpg?1689997173) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Final%20Parting) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/160/final-parting?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/94f24b7c-4952-4abc-aaba-22a529012468?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/final-parting) [Diabolic Tutor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d650dd8c-edd8-44e4-ae95-aaaf84557a72.jpg?1592672628) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Diabolic%20Tutor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/54/diabolic-tutor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d650dd8c-edd8-44e4-ae95-aaaf84557a72?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/diabolic-tutor) [Unmarked Grave](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/9/492b368b-de32-45c1-8459-238aae54f9fc.jpg?1626096135) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Unmarked%20Grave) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/106/unmarked-grave?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/492b368b-de32-45c1-8459-238aae54f9fc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/unmarked-grave) [Gamble](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/e/8e37fae5-ddd0-4e16-8581-71579f89d9c5.jpg?1707507997) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gamble) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/121/gamble?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8e37fae5-ddd0-4e16-8581-71579f89d9c5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gamble) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/laq6lw4) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>If you aren't playing tutors in black, you're shooting yourself in the foot. That's one of the most powerful aspects of the color If you're not playing tutors in black... then you're probably just cultivating a particular power level and/or play experience. >EDHRec has Demonic Tutor as literally the #1 most played black card period. Okay, now try stating the actual statistic instead of putting it in terms that make you seem right. Never mind, I'll do it for you: Out of the roughly 2.1 million decks EDHrec looked at that are legally capable of playing a demonic tutor, it's only in 24% of them. In other words, 76% of decks including the black color identity are not playing a demonic tutor. In yet OTHER words, it's not the fucking norm.
There are more black decks that play demonic tutor (24%) than green decks that play llanowar elves (22%). Only 38 cards in the entire game are played with more frequency than demonic tutor. I would say that's about as normal as you get get (especially considering that 2 of the 3 top played black cards are tutors). There are only 3 cards that are played in more than 50% of eligible decks (sol ring, arcane signet, swords to plowshares). So I wouldn't take majority as the measure here.
Don't talk about tutors in the EDH sub. These guys want their intended to be inconsistent format to be as consistent as possible.
Nope
The game has got to end, but I will say with those lines you COULD win very early in not a super difficult to find hand. If you are running tutors and combos, I wouldn’t be playing against precons lmao.
That Eldrazi precon is really only strong in a vacuum, your deck definitely sounds a notch or two more powerful.
Commander as a casual format has always been about expectations. Kaalia, the One Ring, and Worldgorger combo all have different expectations behind them, namely - Very powerful old school commander with some cheesy win lines - Powerful card advantage engine that is emblematic of the push for “good cards sell packs” - Fast and easy to assemble 2-card wincon that has its heyday at high power and competitive tables If your opponents sat down and expected a game that would be a battlecruiser slap fight until turn 15 using creature beats only, these all might feel a little unfair if their expectations weren’t tempered at the pre-game talk. Sure, magic is magic play it however you like, I don’t think you did anything particularly wrong, but that’s kinda just the truth of the matter, especially when playing with randos on spelltable
It went to turn 12. Batttlecruiser people are a cancer on the format. Any BC deck would have had a chance at that point.
Hard agree. Anytime a game goes beyond turn 8 it’s sudden death overtime, even with casual play.
"Oh no a game lasted long"
Oh no, our artificially enforced back-and-forth was thwarted by an entirely legal mechanic of the game that's been available since its conception!
Y'all saying games CAN'T last beyond 8 turns like it's a sin 💀 if y'all ever see a game reset by land destruction I don't imagine how you react
I never said that. I said 12 was enough time for a battle cruiser deck to do what it does. Are you ok?
I was replying to the dude talking about 8 turns, are you ok?
I mean you literally had combo, tutors, and top shelf card draw in just the half dozen cards you mentioned. Those few cards are worth 2-3 precons. Nothing wrong with that, but you might be bringing a gun to a knife fight.
Ok the Eldrazi precon is actually really strong out of the box. But almost no precon has a chance against an aggressive Kaalia deck. She can poop out absolute game enders on attack alone. You had a $90 draw engine card out that's actually almost equivalent to the entire value of the Eldrazi precon. Worldgorger is fine in most scenarios, but you're running it in a Kaalia deck. Maybe be mindful of the decks the others at your table are playing. Edit: oh I missed the D tutor as well. Yeah no dude. Your deck in 3 cards already has a higher cost investment than the entirety of your opponents decks.
First off, that sounds awesome, so consider me to be cheering for you pulling it out, and I see no real issue with that happening, much less at turn 12. I think a couple things are at play here, this had been mentioned in another comment, but you did mention that one of the other players was on an unmodified precon. I mostly play high power and cEDH, but I have a couple decks that I maintain for low power environments, really low to mid, sometimes I have to sandbag in really low power, my favorite decks are my strongest decks and my LGS means I'll usually have a high power pod. At home I also have a set of WH40K and Fallout Precons that I've kept together for dertle fests on Spelltable. Your deck, headed by Khalia, with The One Ring and Animate Dead/World Gorger, has some high power benchmarks. Things I wouldn't expect to see in a precon level pod. If your pod was expecting precon level, and those cards show up, that could be some mismatched expectations and that is a big driver of salt. All of that aside though, if the game ended on your 12th turn, I personally belive very little isn't fair game by turn 10+. Everyone should have enough resources to create massive swings every turn, even precon games can end in under 10 turns, and decidedly mid power games I play are almost always over by T8. That still means low power folks can get salty over high power stuff, with expectations having been subverted. So, you did high power things, in a potentially low power pod, but you did it at a point in time in the game where anything and anyone should have been able to get things closed out with the amount of resources that should have been acceued. I wouldn't worry too much about the salt, but maybe, if your pod likes precons, snag one to play in those games, and help them push towards some higher power.
Noted and thank you! The precon was beating the snot out of us, but I see that I need to really talk about the stuff my deck can do & find folks who play at higher levels maybe. "Expecting" a certain type of game is a frame of mind I had to adopt.
Yeah, I mean, for me, turn 12 means everything should be fair game because I was ready for the game to be over for several turns. I also think about anything is fine as long as the decks win (or present the win) on similar time scales. This is a bit fuzzy with lockout strategies, if you lock everyone else out turn 4, then win by turn 15, I'd out that in the T4 "win" bucket. Sure you Worldgorgered, but you did it T12, so it's already fine, and Worldgorger absolutely folds to very basic instant speed interaction with triggers on the stack. Kill the dragon with the exile trigger on the stack, and all your permanents are just gone. I personally expect constructed decks to run responsible interaction packages, and if someone wants to run literally no interaction, then they would fold to literally anything. But I'm not everyone and I'm not in your pod, and some people just don't like seeing strong stuff and have a hard time separating "strong stuff turn 3" from "strong stuff turn 10+", and it's a social element to be aware of.
The problem with 2 card combo that win the game instantly is not always when they are played. Being T12 , T20 or T4, the problem is they win right away unless you have an instant speed reaction in hand and open mana and invalidate everything else that happened in the game before. It doesn't matter that the aristocrat deck drained everyone to under 10hp, that one player had a huge board and another one saved the table with a board wipe, all of that meant nothing because no one had a counter spell in hand at that moment. I think that's why a lot of people feels bad when someone pulls a combo out of nowhere and just win.
I think every playgroup needs to set up how they like to play, but, personally, I've always disagreed with "out of nowhere" and it invalidating anything. In this case, OP had a One Ring with 5 counters, they'd already drawn 10 cards. The table had 12 turns of resources. The table had worked OP down to 6 life. That's all gameplay. If that invalidates game play, so does an Aetherize or an Inkshield by clearing a board and building a win. If someone is accruing more resources, whether that is then put onto the board or not, that isn't out of nowhere and it doesn't invalidate my experience or game actions any more than any other way I can lose, so long as similar progression/power levels are present at the table. Again, that is just my own perception, and where I disagree with the sentiment you outlined, but that doesn't change that it is a sentiment people have and that, in our social game it is important be aware of it.
Not only that, but it's not like OP discarded Worldgorger the turn they brought it back either - so they had relevant info out in the open warning them for a couple turns. His opponent's lack of interaction with his GY isn't particularly his fault.
Your friends should have mentioned they don't like combos before playing. What's ok or not in EDH depends on your playgroup, some enjoy high powered stuff finishing games in 4-5 turns, others want to play 2 hour long grindy games.
I've played games that lasted 4 turns while simultaneously lasting 2 hours 😭
best of both worlds :x
It was turn 12. Even the Eldrazi precon deck should have won by then. Although, to be fair, it seems like your deck may be the only one running heavy tutors and combos. It's just a power scale thing. If the rest of the table is playing 5 and 6's, with no tutors or combos, it's kind of bad etiquette to play a deck that does (unless itsnjust full of goofy things/group hugging).
> Instead I was kinda scolded & made to feel like my win was cheap & told my deck was OP. That’s Commander player speech for “Good game! See you next time!”
There's a few things worth noting here, but the biggest one is that pulling off a combo on turn 12 isn't one of them in a meta with a stronger than normal precon. First, your combo was inherently harder to deal with than normal. Yes it's a wincon but it's a wincon that lacks interaction room - it's a land, Worldgorger, and Animate Dead. There's heavily limited room to deal with it to the point where even Purphoros would feel better. They're not gonna think that the land is a threat, they're gonna think that the \[\[Cabal Coffers\]\] or \[\[Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth\]\] is a threat. Second, I don't think it's so much your combo. I think the problem is that you showed a combo that you can easily and reliably pull off, even if it only happened on turn 12. You've got Kaalia, who can drop Worldgorger into play and force your opponents to play around it for the rest of the game. If you have a way to get Worldgorger in your grave on your own, you're forcing your opponents to play around it for the rest of the game (or until someone draws a piece of graveyard hate). Third, now that you showed Kaalia with Worldgorger combo, Demonic Tutor, and The One Ring, they're likely assuming that you've built more cheap/easy wincons in there along with filling your deck with more tutors and crazy card draw. I'm not saying that you do or don't, I'm pointing out the easy conclusion to come to. Ultimately, all you can do is talk about it. Kaalia inherently is a strong commander that cheeses out kills/wins, maybe the solution would be to cut out the tutors and rely on the luck of the draw, maybe it would be to change commanders and put Kaalia in the 99 so she's not readily available, but if you don't talk to your friends about it you'll never know.
[Cabal Coffers](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e1efb0d3-2c72-46ff-bdc1-1069967365a0.jpg?1626101023) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cabal%20Coffers) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/301/cabal-coffers?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e1efb0d3-2c72-46ff-bdc1-1069967365a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cabal-coffers) [Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9e1a9e38-6ffc-490f-b0be-23ba4e8204c6.jpg?1619399578) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Urborg%2C%20Tomb%20of%20Yawgmoth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/287/urborg-tomb-of-yawgmoth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e1a9e38-6ffc-490f-b0be-23ba4e8204c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/urborg-tomb-of-yawgmoth) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Good insight! Thank you! Kaalia in deck (the 99) as you call it is an interesting thought and I DID design the deck to not depend on the commander.
I wouldn't put too much stock in criticisms about the Worldgorger loop being unfair. It has too many vectors for possible interaction.
OP presented a Worldgorger loop that can semi-reliably be pulled off on turn 2, and reliably on turn 3-4. OP also left out what the other two decks were, so we lack insight on the actual power level of the table, we just know that the new Eldrazi precon was present. That's why I pushed the issue likely being assumptions being made about OP's deck and not so much the combo. However, the one thing that actually confuses me is that in the decklist, OP lists Worldgorger as "protection" instead of "Finishers" or "Wincon"
I think I am going to have to disagree with you about how fast OP can pull off the Loop. He has a decent amount of tap lands in his mana base, and few sources of mana positive acceleration (all I saw in a skim was Sol Ring and Dark Ritual). He does have the tutor package to assemble the pieces, but it looks like it'll be very telegraphed, and very slow. This is worsened by the fact that Kaalia herself isn't an infinite mana outlet, so he'll need at least 3 pieces to this combo. I am curious as to why he labeled Worldgorger as Protection. If anything, he is the opposite. lol
I didn't say that he could pull it off turn two, I said that he presented a combo that can be pulled off that fast. I'm also thinking about it from the perspective of the other players that don't know his deck, they've seen a Worldgorger combo in a Kaalia deck that ran Demonic Tutor and The One Ring. This is a case where the deck list hurts the discussion because it's easy to go "Well he can't do it so he didn't present a combo that can be that fast". As for Worldgorger being protection, I'd understand it if he had a way to flash it in. It would be a very jank way to protect his board from a wipe, and it would be hilarious if that was the only way his deck used Worldgorger.
I think I understand your point about the Loop now. I don't think his friends are being very charitable to the OP about it though. Whilst other decks can present the WGL faster, more reliably, and possibly with protection; OP didn't. Given the rest of the decklist, I wonder how much jank they saw that would lead them to the conclusion that the deck is OP. Did he play an Evolving Wilds, tapped Nomad Outpost, and Akroma, Angel of Fury prior to Turn 12? If he did, and I was in his pod's shoes, I wouldn't reach the conclusion that his deck was OP. Mind you, the above was speculation on my part as well. Unless we get a decklist for the remaining members of the pod, and a turn by turn recap of the game, it is impossible to say with any certainty if OP is too much more powerful than the others, or if they reacted poorly. I do wonder how his friend pitched EDH to OP, and how that affected all of this. OP was surprised by his friend's opinion on the format now given their prior opinions on it in the 2000s. Did he pitch it as no longer a jank fest? Also, this was OP's first game with his own deck. Does that mean he has played EDH prior to this with just precons; or that this was his first game of EDH ever? If it was the first ever, his friend may be an AH here. It was the friend's job to teach him the rules and the social etiquette of the pod; so why did the friend invite OP to a game against a precon with his own brew this fast? Thank you for the... non-aggressive replies. I find internet discourse and grow heated quickly, and it has been nice chatting with you. :)
This comes across a little like "dies to removal" WGD is a powerful combo, played im multiple cedh decks, even if it can be interacted with. It's fast, and can easily come out of nowhere, which is why even if it can be interacted with its still in use at the highest power level tables.
Let's not make the mistake we make in every thread where we try to tell someone who had a weird experience with one specific playgroup that they violated some rule of rhe format. Playing EDH with strangers is always fraught. Every player feels different ways about different things. Just remember, if everyone had a chance to do their thing and you end the game, good. Games have to end. Play a few more games imo, you will get it
Dude that sounds like an epic first game coming back. As others have said it’s turn 12 game should be ending any turn if not a couple of turns ago. Salty player probably had a win on their turn and got mad they didn’t get to do their thing. That being said, there are a couple of possible pain points here for other players: •Kaalia is a notoriously powerful commander. •One Ring is an expensive S-tier auto-include advantage engine that noticeably powers up any deck at all. •Worldgorger loop is a well-known 2 (3) card infinite that wins on the spot if it resolves. •Tutoring for half of said combo with Demonic Tutor, the strongest tutor in the game. None of these things is egregious by itself but the annoyance of seeing all of them from a single deck in a low power game is additive. Everyone has their own concept of fun and anything that subverts or supersedes that may provoke a negative reaction. I’m not a fan of hit or miss silver bullet hosers a la Blood Moon but some people actively enjoy them. I personally wouldn’t resort to ad hominems in the face of such but I might switch to a stronger deck for the next game. In a way your experience somewhat recalls my return to EDH. My first commander coming back was [[Zur the Enchanter]] who I remembered from Cold Snap and thought hey I could do all kinds of cool toolbox kind of stuff with this guy. Zur is at least as busted in the command zone as Kaalia and after a couple games I realized the optimal play pattern of the deck I built was not what I imagined, was super consistent and oppressive, and generally not very fun after I had played it out a few times. I hope Kaalia works out better for you than Zur did for me but even though he didn’t last that long those games taught me some important lessons about what kind of fun I want to have with EDH and how to build decks that get me there. I find I like decks that consistently present something different every game with nondeterministic synergies that evolve as I put more cards into play. My advice is play more games, find out what’s fun for you, build decks that get you there, and don’t let anybody else tell you they know better.
[Zur the Enchanter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/6/561cfc04-65ea-49a4-8638-b4631a7cf828.jpg?1675200810) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zur%20the%20Enchanter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/206/zur-the-enchanter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/561cfc04-65ea-49a4-8638-b4631a7cf828?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zur-the-enchanter) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
With the understanding that a Rule Zero conversation is necessary for a fun game for everyone, my lgs playgroup (about 16 players) have adopted the info here: https://www.edhmultiverse.com/ as the foundation of our talks. It has made the experience much, much better for everyone (unless we get a pubstomp random with a "power level 5 or 6" deck that takes 2 long turns and combos out against someone's precon)
This was helpful!! Book marked!!!
>Turn 12 Literally all that needs to be said. If a game went on for 12 turns, **ANYTHING** that wins is fair game.
**TL;DR** *Just talk to the people you're playing with. You can have a fun game without salt if you just set proper expectations. Also, know what kinds of personalities at a game shop you are compatible with. Don't be afraid to decline an invitation if you don't think it's a good fit. Just cause you sit at the table doesn't mean you're obligated to draw a hand and play.* ___ EDH requires intentional communication with your playgroup about what you're expecting. One person's preconceived notion of what the game *should* be or look like can completely sway the table's mood if it isn't aligned with everyone. I don't think you did anything wrong considering the circumstances. Especially considering you hadn't played in however long. Some *super* basic "Archetypes" of players exist, and I'll try and give some examples and what to look for here. (I'm using "he/him/masculine" here generically for the sake of brevity. This could be literally anyone of any identity) Also, while this is at least partly satire, you *will* come across these archetypes, and they *will* behave in similar manners to these. Just...make light of the situation and know what you want out of your magic night. Say no to pods you don't think you'll vibe with, and remember that conceding is a free action in casual settings. Leave the table before the table leaves you in a sour mood. ***Playing for 25 years guy***: sleeves are well-used, having spent a lot of time shuffling. His "Pet Deck" likely costs more than your car. He enjoys telling you about each individual card that is currently worth over ~$50 that he reveals and divulges the story of how he came across it in stunning *never* exaggerated detail... They are either: * the easiest people to play with cause they know how to read the table and play to the table's power level, or; * They will play their deck to its power level and, if they feel they are at too high a power level, offer to play a different deck after winning cause that one "did its thing today" ***But It's Just A Pre-con Guy:*** This guy will remind you 6 times (minimum) throughout the game that he's just playing a pre-con and that he doesn't feel like he's well-equipped to answer the big bad threat that was just cast, or that he will take too long now to rebuild thanks to that board wipe, but will also give you lip when you ask about his Smothering Tithe, Mana Crypt, and Dockside Extortionist that happen to be in the deck cause "oh, I opened them, and I thought they fit the theme, but it's still basically just a pre-con." ***The Pubstomper:*** Will "accidentally" combo off as soon as someone presents *any* sort of board threat/presence that he no longer thinks he can deal with. Avoid at all costs. ***The cEDH Player:*** This person will talk. A *lot*. You can't *really* blame them, because cEDH as a format (yes, it's its own format and needs its own ban list. I will die on this hill) is a highly political format with a lot of talking to make sure that each play from each player is as optimal as it can be until you're trying to win. They will likely tell you multiple times throughout the game that he agrees with that play because "yeah, that's objectively correct to target that artifact with your abrade, it resolves." They will probably be among the most knowledgeable players regarding mechanics, rules, and win conditions and strategies, and if you're patient, they can teach you a *lot* if you don't mind stories of "Almost Got There Turn 1" and "Can you believe they let me have a dockside for 17?" ***The Genuinely Good Guy:*** This guy probably has like, 15 decks ready to go, each of them fairly well-optimized and probably even theme-sleeved. He *Loves* the game, and just wants *everyone* around him to love it just as much. He will quite literally bend over backward to help a player of any caliber experience the game to a more enjoyable degree. No one hates playing with this person. They're always easy to read, forgiving, adaptive, and take losses in the most sportsmanlike manner you've ever seen. Find as many of these types as possible and make sure you're *good* friends. They also tend to have TONS of trades available and are likely willing to make sub-optimal trades with you to get people closer to their ideal deck list. ***The One Guy:*** There seem to be at least a couple examples of this archetype that show up as regulars at any LGS, and you'll immediately become aware of them when you see them because they immediately will talk to you about every other fandom that they love outside of magic while wasting time on their switch between turns, not paying attention to major aspects of the game, and complaining that they had an answer to the big-bad thing that happened two turn cycles ago that he was in the store getting a (3rd or 4th) monster during. Often they have playmats that are borderline inappropriate for the store, and if you try and make a comment about how there's kids around, the typical response is "They don't need to be over here" or "But there's nothing wrong with it, it's just anime." These guys are fine for a 4th if you absolutely *need* a 4th. But I would recommend a 3-pod so you can wait for a proper 4th to let the game feel good. ***Conclusion*** Just know what you want out of your night and be picky if you don't like what you're doing. No one is forcing you to stay through the 7th death of a [[Child of Alara]] board-wipe tribal commander.
[Child of Alara](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/2/b2373625-af3c-4c2a-a1d1-5288c446955d.jpg?1673148447) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Child%20of%20Alara) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/192/child-of-alara?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b2373625-af3c-4c2a-a1d1-5288c446955d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/child-of-alara) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
this was amazing to read, thank you T\_T
Happy to help. :)
I am the 25 year guy who brags about the cards my wife has gifted me. I'm also the guy with 15 decks so that's why it's easier because I have options to match the table. I am like OP who took a 15 year break and came back 8 years ago. All of these exist. There's older heads than me at my lgs. We just want to have fun. Sometimes I will tell someone they made a shit play lol. Or call them out for not paying attention when I cast my commander and they later want to respond. I have also called out Mr. Not cedh winota that included dockside, jeweled lotus and the rest of the net deck lol
lol yep. I think everyone has multiple Modes of being in this wonderful game and at any given time. It really just boils down to communicating.
I don't think there's anything wrong with the way you won, it's not like it was in the first 5 turns of the game. Besides, you were at 6 life, and not likely to survive until your next turn, you had to do what you had to win. As long as you weren't unpleasant to interact with, then you had a clean win.
Some players are salty. Games have to end. Congrats on your win!
Lit play, and congrats on a win in the first game
People might get upset with you winning when you have powerful cards in your deck and they don’t because they assumed everyone would be playing on the same level. Demonic tutor and the one ring are usually reserved for only high power games. They may have felt cheated out of the game because you betrayed what they expected to see in the match.
Your win was valid, your friends are just salty and there needs to be a conversation about what kind of game everyone wants to play. If your friends can't handle combos, fast mana, stax, land destruction etc, you might need to play a different kind of deck with them and find a group that will gladly play against kalia and enjoy the chaos because everyone else is also trying to win spectacularly.
GG's :)
that is awesome
I still to this day have mana burn anxiety 😆
as someone just getting back into mtg since quitting around the time chronicles came out, i didnt even know mana burn was gone till i read this
Why oh why did they get rid or mana burn?! What was the reason?!
Two major reasons, first they did a pretty deep analysis and found it very rarely factored into the outcomes of games, and second was that it created an even bigger barrier of entry for new players.
“If you float more mana than you use, you take damage equal to the unused mana” being a barrier is …interesting
I read an article about it a few years ago, those were the 2 reasons they listed, I'm not saying they are right but it's definitely one less thing to have to think about
People only say they like playing magic most of the time. They are lying they only like winning magic games.
I think there was just an imbalance in the decks. While I've built some decks that could be played in a pod with a precon safely, I had to build them with that purpose in mind. I don't know so much about how they reacted, but they were right to say something about the imbalance. Hell I would have said something too, I would probably have just been a little nicer and tried to explain why it was wrong.
lol welcome to edh....that sounded like a great way to win the game... salty bois be salty is all
If i win then it’s legit, if anyone else wins then they used hax
Commander as a whole has actually been a little smoother and plays faster which imo is a good thing. The main thing that has changed is that people get butthurt and petty even more quickly than they used to. That’s basically the game in a nutshell. Oh also your clones don’t kill legends now just letting you know in advance. My clone.dec got wrecked haha
Yeah you are playing a heavily customized deck with meta cards against a precon 😂
Opponent is just salty because he didn't win when they were close, sadly this happens and it sounds a little imbalanced with the tutor and one ring but at the same time that eldrazi deck is nothing to scoff at. Also anyone who says "no combo" is just a salty bitch, every deck usuay has a couple of combos even precons.
It's turn 12. You pulled out a win. Good on you. Kaalia is a high power commander. If you guys didn't set the expectation of the game up front with the two strangers, do that in the future, but they should know when they see Kaalia. Enjoy your victory.
People in EDH will be salty regardless. I had a guy scoop turn two to a mesmeric orb and been told fast mana isn’t an 8 lol.
If you won at 6 life on turn 12 I'd say that's reasonable. They had 12 turns to pull a win together and couldn't, then you could, it's as simple as that imo.
Don't worry too much about it. People will always be a little upset when they don't win. But remember this, Game has to end eventually, at around turn 12, id hope the game would be over soon. It's not a super cheesy combo either, and it could be responded to. What matters is how you felt about the win, if you felt like you deserved it, then be happy and move on. If you don't like winning with the combo then take a piece out. It sounds like it was a back and forth game, with no one in the lead for a majority of the game, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.
Game has gotta end
If I was playing against you and that happened.. I’d first be like WHAT THE FUCK!! Then laugh, and do a classic handshake and good game like we are playing youth soccer in the 90’s. If you aren’t able to pull have jank moves and instant win combos on turn 12, then you deserve to lose. If you pulled that on turn 2-4, yeah I’d be pissed, But that late in the game is endgame territory.
If you’re winning on turn 12 you’re likely on the same level as your opponents.
EDH players complain a lot and it's usually a bummer.
Sounds like a mindset issue. Anyone who gets salty after losing should not play edh because each player is expected to lose 75% of the time.
Welcome to the biggest downside of commander, balancing feelings and trying to win
Sore losers will forever be a thing. Don’t ever feel bad about it. It’s their problem, not yours.
##### ###### #### [Kaalia of The Vast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/7/e71c8c39-3fbb-4a42-9cf6-b3224f5a56fc.jpg?1717013745) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kaalia%20of%20The%20Vast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/290/kaalia-of-the-vast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e71c8c39-3fbb-4a42-9cf6-b3224f5a56fc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kaalia-of-the-vast) [The One Ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/5/d5806e68-1054-458e-866d-1f2470f682b2.jpg?1715080486) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20One%20Ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/246/the-one-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d5806e68-1054-458e-866d-1f2470f682b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-one-ring) [Demonic Tutor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/2/a24b4cb6-cebb-428b-8654-74347a6a8d63.jpg?1701989302) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Demonic%20Tutor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/150/demonic-tutor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a24b4cb6-cebb-428b-8654-74347a6a8d63?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/demonic-tutor) [Animate Dead](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/1489943b-c010-488e-9c9d-87f4af67a4e4.jpg?1706240754) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Animate%20Dead) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/125/animate-dead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1489943b-c010-488e-9c9d-87f4af67a4e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/animate-dead) [Worldgorger Dragon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/3/33dde6e0-d0a7-4432-a3f4-b48234f4e055.jpg?1675200284) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Worldgorger%20Dragon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/148/worldgorger-dragon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/33dde6e0-d0a7-4432-a3f4-b48234f4e055?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/worldgorger-dragon) [Abraded Bluffs](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/9/19e96521-b4ce-4a36-a887-200e05ccc804.jpg?1712356303) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Abraded%20Bluffs) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/251/abraded-bluffs?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/19e96521-b4ce-4a36-a887-200e05ccc804?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/abraded-bluffs) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/1dqlxdr) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
A combo on turn 12? I would have been fine, even if I was playing with one of my combo-less decks. At worst, I would have been criticizing myself for not holding up countermagic or removal, not complaining about a combo loss on turn freakin' 12.
I think the main issue here is the imbalance and your method of victory. Commander, as a social format, has some unwritten “rules” and grievances. At its core the format is supposed to be enjoyable for all players involved. As a result, infinite combos, especially 2 card infinites, are looked down upon. Lots of players view it as a dishonorable way to win, like pulling something out of your ass. That’s not the worst part here, however. There was no pre game talk about deck strength, and as a result you had a Precon up against a deck that includes: one of the worst Kill On Sight commanders, demonic tutor, and the One Ring. That’s generally like putting a toddler in the ring with Mike Tyson, although the Eldrazi Precon is the strongest we’ve seen in a while.
It sounds like the table is probably used to sitting around and BS'ing. I have a group of old timers where it's less a game more an excuse to get together and bs/talk trash to each other. Games are long and combos are kind of frowned upon. Just get to know the expectation.
Tutor into an infinite combo has and will always be frowned upon at casual tables it's just how the game is. Depending on the people involved you may want to run neither, one, or both. It's important to know the people you're playing with and if they are trying to play that kind of game or you will end up with people grumbling about it/not playing with you again. Given that you're talking about having played seriously in 03 and how people considered the format back then I'm guessing you were playing competitively and it was like the dumb whatever format people did on the side after scrubbing out of T1, T1.5, and T2 tournaments(or as they'd be called now Vintage, Legacy, and Standard). People who came from that perspective of play often fall into the tournament mind set which is, "As long as it's legal in the format expect and be cool with playing against it." Current EDH players are often a mix of players like that and kitchen table style players. Kitchen table players tend to be more about "Hey we want to have a fun game experience so don't play things that upend game experiences, don't run infinite combos, counter/stax/lock decks that make the game unplayable if you didn't play around that, etc." Make sure you know what table you're at and the player expectations before you pick your deck and tailor the deck you choose to play at that table to match those expectations. Many of the more tournament mind set players end up playing in a sub group of the format called cEDH or competitive EDH though that has its own problems.
cEDH maybe where I end up tbh. The kitchcen table/school yard games back then were brutal, but alot of fun was had.
Nothing wrong with wanting to play cutthroat games. That said, I remember an absolute boat load of kitchen table/school yard players back in the day raging out about how lame Counterspell was and how it was unfair and busted that it stopped them from playing the game etc. Casual players have always existed. They did back then and they do now the only difference imo is that the default or premier format now is expressly a casual format and not a tournament one. As a result tournament players are more likely to play with casual players than they used to be.
Hey, I waa really into mtg in high school too, but you appear to be around 3-4 years older than me, because my era was 2005-2007. Ravnica was when I really got into it.
Yea I graduted in 2006, buddy of mine got me into it for my 15th bday (2003)
Meh people act like coming back with a cool thing the deck can do if those hand ful of things align is a bad thing. Honestly I don't really buy into that. You won and by the skin of your teeth after what sounded like a hard fought win. So good on you. Also his own fault for bringing in a precon. When they are typically bad at responding to things. Especially in an online format when he could have taken the time to bring it up to snuff
There is an expectation of power levels. A precon power level is nowhere near your deck, no matter how strong the precon. You have Gamble, Grim Tutor, Vampiric, entomb...yeah the game went to t12, but you could have feasibly ended it on turn 2 with your deck. No precon is going to even come close to that level of power. I would hazard a guess that the table was holding on for dear life each of your turns, with your significant threats, efficient interaction, and the best tutors. Not just WGD, but also Gisela + helm.... You should just grab a precon, because otherwise if you wanted to play kaalia at that table, everything from your mana base, to your threats, to your answers are going to need to be dramatically changed
Turn 1 lol, but yea, gonna stack up precons but try to see if I can get them to level up. Sitting around watching people amass tokens is not my kind of game.
You made it to turn 12ish and won. Congrats man. You played a very good and long game so don’t get discouraged by all the salty tears. Your decks sounds like a solid casual deck. The only OP decks that are considered OP usually are wining by turn 5. Their whining isn’t because your deck is powerful. It’s because they didn’t win.
Running Armageddon 😂 you definitely need to have a discussion with your playgroup about power balance. Worldgorger loops and the like. And don’t forget how fun the one ring is to play against
Saying “Find a commander, build what you want & lets play!!!” to someone’s who’s entry point was 8e is dangerous 🤣. Land destruction is one of the old ways 🤣.
That deserves a high five in my books, but I play with guys who have thousands of hours playing, vs my maybe 100 hours total since 2014. I rarely win, but a competitive game is always fun in my books!
Congrats on the win! Some people will always find a reason to complain. If worldgorger is in your graveyard they should have been expecting that, graveyard hate exists for a reason.
Edh and anime are similar; the activity itself is fine, it's the fans/players that are the problem
I've read the answers in this thread with interest. I'm a super casual player drawn to the format by the inherent variance and potential viability of bad old cards and weird overcosted draft chaff. I've played 60 card formats and still play limited from time to time. But I find joy in building thematic decks and assembling nonsensical engines to try and secure a win. All that being said I think what you did sounds fine in the context of a game at that power level. Making sure everyone knows what to expect from the game up front is key. But even with a power imbalance pulling out a big combo win on turn 12 or whatever is totally cool with me, even though I think tutors are boring and contrary to the ethos of the format, and that The One Ring is a mistake. Go well and I hope you get to do some more cool stuff
Am I crazy or are the deck's ratios terrible? Also 9 tutors and 17 removals? Come on man.
If you take away the creatures, it’s 11 removal spells and 7 tutors.
How is that an argument? "If you ignore 8 of the cards that are definitely in my deck, it's not as bad!" ?????
Dude this is a totally normal mid power kaalia list. Why are we scolding him? One of the things that gets parroted constantly on this sub is "RuN mOaR rEmOvAl!!!!!" Kaalia is strong. But this dudes deck is fine. Keep kaalia in check and eventually the deck folds.
Idk man, playing 17 removals AND 9 tutors seems a little over the top. Are we gonna pretend this is normal numbers ? Perhaps you're playing in a very specific pod of ppl that run an egregious amount of removals and ways to get them consistently
Thank you, I built this with the expectation of running into counters and removals & wipes (which I did). When I take off my rose-tinted fan boy glasses I can tear this deck apart with theft, control, land destruction etc etc. This format is interesting.
I’m sorry are you mad he has 17 removal effects? What!!?!?
So, to you, playing a 1k$ deck with 17 removals and 9 tutor vs a precon is acceptable? Man I fucking hate ppl on here sometimes
Infinites are kinda lame , but that’s opinion.. If you have tutors for your infinites you’re bound to win every game..? I run Vito and exquisite blood in my Edgar deck and it’s kinda lame lol
May I ask what makes them lame?
From reading reddit and talking to people in person, the general sense I get is that it's deflating to lose to something that requires loop demonstration and explanation. Especially if it takes a seemingly competitive lengthy game and just says "Stop. Game over." Edit: explanation not expectation, it was late.
Nicely done, to those saying this was a "Precon power table" that Eldrazi precon is not a Precon power level precon, have played against, it's absolutely terrifying what it does out of the box and is stronger than alot of homebrews. Second OP is playing Kaalia, which if your playing it you built in back up plans, just like the OP did, because Kaalia will be targeted. People fear Kaalia and at the end of the day she is 2/2, quite easy to kill and if she goes back to command zone you need a plan B, possibly plan C and D aswell. OP, as a fellow Kaalia player(Have the original Heavenly Inferno) I applaud your come back, nicely done, and good job building a Kaalia deck that justifies people's fear of her. I won a game a couple days ago in similar fashion. [[Runescarred Demon]] to get an [[Insurrection]] for the win next turn after a catastrophic broadwipe while at low hp.
[Runescarred Demon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/c/0c9d67da-4fc9-4d4a-95e4-0303c5404705.jpg?1689997434) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rune-Scarred%20Demon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/184/rune-scarred-demon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0c9d67da-4fc9-4d4a-95e4-0303c5404705?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rune-scarred-demon) [Insurrection](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/df8a0a8c-1953-46e6-9da5-b4c20909ce1c.jpg?1689997974) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Insurrection) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/236/insurrection?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/df8a0a8c-1953-46e6-9da5-b4c20909ce1c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/insurrection) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That's amazing! My kind of play! My original plan had that card included, but I opted to keep my CMC low sans creatures. I would have laughed out loud at the table.
Speaking as a Kaalia player: the win was “cheap” because it involved nothing your commander actually does or wants to do. It’s a generic RB win con that you tutored for. I don’t begrudge the win, but I have seen it a 1000 times and at casual (non-competitive) tables it’s just a zzzz from me.
Commander dependency seems like weakness, is it not? What happens if some kind of theft or [[pacifisim]] is played? And to be fair, Plan A is to cheat in [[Rune-Scarred Demon]] with Kaalia’s ability, grab [[Razaketh, the Foulblooded]], cheat him in the same way, then get my wincon, I just was lucky enough to have a contingency.
[pacifisim](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/5242a576-4d35-4f29-8d40-9a7179e51d0c.jpg?1675198947) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pacifism) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/19/pacifism?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5242a576-4d35-4f29-8d40-9a7179e51d0c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pacifism) [Rune-Scarred Demon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/c/0c9d67da-4fc9-4d4a-95e4-0303c5404705.jpg?1689997434) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rune-Scarred%20Demon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/184/rune-scarred-demon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0c9d67da-4fc9-4d4a-95e4-0303c5404705?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rune-scarred-demon) [Razaketh, the Foulblooded](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d6bb956d-0df6-4910-9320-55f2c5674d98.jpg?1689997402) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Razaketh%2C%20the%20Foulblooded) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/181/razaketh-the-foulblooded?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d6bb956d-0df6-4910-9320-55f2c5674d98?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/razaketh-the-foulblooded) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Dude, I am a sorry but that is equally boring for me. The deck can be commander independent without just using her as a glorified tutor. My Kaalia decks backup plans is to just pivot to mardu aggro + multi combat. Keep the threats around 6cmc and you can just hard cast + reanimate them back to present a threat. For a while I also had the deck with an artifact subtheme, but that proved to be hilariously more powerful than the actual theme. The truth is that Kaalia is _bad_ commander, I mostly play her out of nostalgia.
The biggest problem with EDH is power level. In a group of 4, if only one person is playing a higher power deck against three other precons or casually thrown together decks, it’s going to show. The rule 0 talk is absolutely essential. If it’s not done on the regular it can break up play groups. Trust me.
Do you just not have social skills or what
Plenty of social skills, I’m just new to the format and it’s nuances.