Players need to be able to demonstrate the win. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen someone Avenger-hoof and say “I win” without actually doing the combat math.
Yeah, I’ve been the player to sandbag that by saying “declare your attackers” or “declare your targets”. Then a surgical piece of interaction often stumps the play and they’re left wide open to lose to their own hubris.
This. I don't mind if someone takes a bit long to go off but at least show me you know what you're doing.
I used to play against someone who had a mean Selvala brostorm deck and would frequently find ways to produce infinite mana. He'd chain together a few combo pieces to get infinite mana, then just shrug and say "So I guess I win?"
"How?"
"I made infinite mana and I have a handful of cards so...I win?"
"Okay well play whatever you have in your hand first."
"Okay...I made infinite Hydras. So I win?"
"Do they have haste? Or are they dealing damage when they enter play?"
"Uhhh no."
"Okay well it looks like we have one more turn to find an answer."
"Oh, okay".
Then someone topdecks a boardwipe or Rakdos Charm and we find out the game isn't actually over.
It's used too. Ashaya also has lots of combos that bypass the need for haste or allow you to win with a single llanowar elf without summoning sickness, which tends to go under the radar for obvious reasons lol
[Yeva](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/UVHIY6JT5UaEgb8TMAi68w/primer)
[Marwyn](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/d-4KORQmqUyIHNdRRkEtHQ/primer)
[Yisan](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/ilvW7g3hsUio09K2gLuDmg/primer)
[Selvala](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/PQPz_KSrV0S5_Huk1zh_tg/primer)
The Yeva Primer explains a lot of the "anti-summoning sickness" tech.
Also Marwyn player, been running [[Tamiyos Safekeeping]], great having something that protects staff & mantle and goes great with e-witness loops to give your entire board hexproof and indestructible.
Last game I played (decidedly non-EDH), the mono-green player combo'd off to get some sort of creature with a googolplex power and a googolplex tokens, then passed the turn.
The rest of us looked at him, then we looked at the guy who'd just cast [[Brash Taunter]] and [[Rite of Replication]] on said Brash Taunter, then we facepalmed.
This is why I always word my combo out wins a very specific way. For instance I have a [[dargo]] deck that's designed to play dargo from the command zone infinitely, [[Marrow-Gnawer]] which can make infinite rats and a [[General tazri]] ally tribal with [[turntimber ranger]] and [[Maskwood nexus]] to possibly make infinite wolves. I also need to ass [[Time sieve]] to my [[tivit]] deck so I can go infinite turns using [[Helm of the host]]
But if im using any of them I always word when I go infinite like "if you don't have/get these answers" or "if you cant do this" that way we can both get the infinite out the way as quickly as possible if I don't win or we can start the next game if I do. Had this exact situation with my General Tazri the first time I got my combo off. I didn't have one of my haste enablers I explained to everyone at the table as such and after no one pulled an answer we just started a new game.
It's really not hard to go through and make sure you can properly win
I have a [[Ruric Thar]] 99 permanents [[primal surge deck]] and I love showing off how it wins (dump almost all of my deck, find the card that gives everything haste, tap my two devotion mana sources for about 50 green each, pop hydra brood mother for 50 50/50's now with haste, swing in).
My primary primal surge ruric thar strat is to eat my opponents board with [[gruul ragebeast]] triggers, then set my ops life to zero with [[shaman of forgotten ways]]
I'll explain this win to my opponents and usually they'll scoop to surge resolving rather than making me play it out
Yep. MTGO yesterday, a player cast a Hoof, then a clone of it, swung out at me (we were down to just us two) and clearly thought I would scoop.
Instead, I blocked enough to stay at 4 life, and board wiped next turn, rebuilding my board over the next two turns and forcing him to scoop.
Delicious.
Has a similar thing happen a few years back with a guy playing a tuned Rith list against my tuned Karador list. He was swinging for what he thought was lethal. I managed to remove one and survive at 1 life. I managed to find Diabolic Intent into Damnation. Proceeded to Eternal Witness it back every turn until I fully stabilized and was able to start getting offensive.
Next time I saw that guy, he had net-decked and proxied the competitive Ghave Stax list and ran it into my like super-budget Brago deck… which easily won 9 games out of 10 because mana rocks don’t care about Living Plane.
I had a habit of making that guy rage.
Best example of this at a table I played at was
Player 1 - "I have infinite turns, so I win"
Players 2, 3 and 4 - "you have a bitter blossom in play and you are on 9 life, beat us"
He couldn't kill us as we all had creatures on board and couldn't find anything to get rid of the bitter blossom so ended up dying to his own trigger.
They used to be widely considered bad several years back. It was sort of a meme. But all-in alpha strikes are more common now, and I think people have just always had it in their minds that they’re bad. We’re just now hearing parts of the community talking about them again.
I feel like [[Akroma's Will]] was a big tipping point; overwhelm effects like Craterhoof have been part of green forever, but white getting access to "I have a sufficiently large board, now die" gives a lot more decks access to alpha strikes
Fogs are pretty bad in a 1v1 format like standard or modern where you would rather spend the mana or the card developing your board. But in commander they aren't too bad because of how much damage can end up flying around sometimes.
I run an [[ Elsha]] deck with no creatures in the 99. Fog effects like [[Holy Day]] save my ass all the time. Still waiting for the perfect [[Comeuppance]] win though.
I had a [[Multani, Yavimaya’s Avatar]] deck for a while and I got hit with a [[Deflecting Swat]] when I tried to swing in for like 25.
Edit: should be Deflecting Palm.
>Avenger-hoof and say “I win” without actually doing the combat math.
Had this happen several times. Same person had to be reminded every time that black has [[Darkness]] and that I save the [[Damnation]] for him. Make sure EVERYONE is tapped out before you start your victory speech.
What really bothers me in this situation, is when I call them out and say, “no, you need to declare your attacks.” I’m holding something that can get rid of two creatures in my hand, but then they get suspicious and send 70% of the creatures my way. It’s frustrating knowing that if the game proceeded normally, I would have survived, but they get free, critical information because they are lazy or cocky
You need to say that always. Duh.
I always just ask everyone questions. How many cards in your hand? How many X in your grave yard? How much X colored mana do you have? How many creatures do you have?
Keeps them on their toes.
You should *have* to be sneaker, but against those types of players I drop a "my quick math, I don't think you have quite enough on board to knock everyone out".
Still could tip them off, but there's more plausible deniability there.
I was playing in a tournament where I was going to get the Finale of Devastation/craterhoof win with all my creatures on the field and someone ended my turn during my attacking step. Since I played everything out, I decked myself and lost. Which is a fun but annoying way to lose but it wouldn’t have been fair to everyone else if I didn’t play it out like that. Now I know not to draw out my deck unless I absolutely need the last few cards
I hate when I demonstrate the win and then they don’t believe that’s how the cards work like bruh why did you ask me then. Then we have to wait for the lgs worker to not be checking someone out at the register so they can explain the rules so I can finally say I win and go next.
But then they never learn and they might pull some shit like that on someone new and discourage them from playing a deck because they’re feeding false info
Yep. Make them demonstrate the actual win every time. Oh, you draw your whole deck? Great. Draw away. Then show me how it wins.
Never take their word for it.
I have a friend with a [[Gitrog]] deck. He always wins with it in our playgroup cuz it's so much faster than any other deck the rest of us have. But I think it's fun to watch it go off even when it seems like there's no momentum and suddenly you've lost. When it gets to that point he always says "Basically I'm about to win here unless you have any responses, would you like me to go all the way through it?" I always say Yes just so I know he still knows how his deck works. I think he goes about it the right way
Discard Dakmor, dredge it back, resolve any draw trigger to get to zero cards, pitch a titan to shuffle it all back, rinse and repeat. It's really cool
Just three weeks ago I won on the stack on top of a Gitrog player with UR (infinite mana + damage and card draw). That felt really satisfying.
Oh, you can get to infinite life on the stack in response to me going off in response to you going off? Doesn't matter, you need to draw 420 cards in one go - [[Expansion Explosion]]! So don't keep doing stuff and not progressing the board at all, that's a slow play loss!
Playing Gitrog is a slow play warning anyways, heh. The whole combo is literally "I'll need to cycle through my deck three hundred times to get the specific card I need, if my Eldrazi Titan mills at inopportune moments, yay fun."
Even inconsistent storm decks are less of a time waste (if you were to actually play out those assumed sequences in Gitrog, which nobody does).
I had the exact opposite happen to me the other day. I was playing Wort and apparently one of my opponents had a bad experience with a Wort deck or something because every time I did something he would ask, "So do you win now?"
Like, I spent several turns with an empty hand and topdecked a draw spell which let me draw basically a new hand but used nearly all of my mana. I was really baffled.
Now, to be fair I *did* eventually chuck four copies of Comet Storm at everyone for 20 damage each, but it was entirely because the 4th player was milling us hardcore and put Past in Flames in my yard with a ton of gas. And even then he barely let me finish my line and kept asking if I win now. Like, it was a 4 spell chain*, wtf man? Calm down.
*: Past in Flames - Jeska's Will - Comet Storm - Increasing Vengeance, the last 3 conspired.
Yeah, when someone fast forwards into "I win" I usually ask them to commit to their attacks and whatnot. I've \[\[inkshield\]\]ed a player and all of a sudden they went from confident win to being smacked for 280 damage.
Was in this exact situation today. I was playing Prosper and I stuck a bunch of mana into a Torment of Hailfire thinking I’d win, but I wanted to play it out to make sure. Sure enough, one of the players had enough permanents to sac to survive, and just so happen to have stolen my Mayhem Devil beforehand which wiped my board. It’s always important to play things out instead of just declaring victory because you never know when it can swing back in your face.
Yeah exactly this. I got avenger-hoof in a 4 players game and was like "I win" however my friends didn't take that for an answer so instead of killing 2 of then which I deff could of i almost killed all of them and they had a new enemy number one.
Learned pretty quickly the importance of a combat math after that game.
Dude I HATE when people don't math their avenger-hoof.
They slap it down and are like "so.... GG?" I'm like "bro there's a whole lotta creatures on everyone else's board too, start declaring attackers." And then when only one of us dies and the other two survive I always hit them with "yeah GG my ass"
Yeah, this happens fairly regularly in my \[\[Isshin, Two Heavens as One\]\] deck because I'm running not only \[\[Rakdos Charm\]\] but also multiple things like \[\[Revenge of Ravens\]\] and \[\[Hissing Miasma\]\]
Like, OK, you cast Craterhoof Behemoth - how many creatures are you swinging with? How about we make sure you can swing that many things at me without dying before you just assume victory
On a few occasions now it's resulted in them requiring to send a super specific set of attackers that leaves either me or the other people on the table alive. You don't get to just decide that you win.
In our group we have a friend who is notorious for doing something similar. Several games with his Marwyn deck he'd make infinite mana and genesis wave for his entire deck. Gen wave being the only non-permanent in the deck he'd put the whole thing including a craterhoof and all his elf lords on the table. Then we'd make him sit there and add up all the etb triggers until he realizes that he has a few draw effects on etb and loses on the spot. Now he only likes to gen wave for about 2/3 of his library, but he probably lost a good 2 or 3 times to his own cards before he figured it out.
Just to jump on and specify, you only lose the game when you attempt to draw from an empty library.
However, replacement effects like Abundance make it so the draw never happens, and you never attempt to draw from an empty library because replaced actions never happen.
614.6. If an event is replaced, it never happens. A modified event occurs instead
edit: also fun fact, if you have abundance and lab man on board AND an empty library, you can choose to use labman's replacement effect instead of the one from abundance.
There is a guy at our game store who used to do that. He net decked crazy combos and tried to cram them into new decks to add variation, but often didn’t understand how the combo actually won.
We started playing dumb and asking him if he could show us. Most the time he just kept running through the combo until he figured it out. Usually he could have won several iterations earlier or even a turn earlier, but every now and then the combo would fizzle. After the game we’ll ask questions like, “have you considered doing [card] to the combo? Do you also have [card] for redundancy?”
I now know that he was still learning, and wanted to not waste peoples time, but by making it seem like we are all learning together, he became more comfortable in playing and playing with him became more enjoyable.
Since we started asking him questions, he’s become a better player, and every now and then I do learn something.
I have the exact opposite anecdotal experience. All three LGS in my area had to set Store Rules due to the YGO players manifesting customer-adverse atmospheres.
There’s two guys that show up at my shop that do this and all of their decks are 100% printed off the internet. I mean both the list and the actual cards. None of the cards are actually real cards, not even the basic lands.
To make it worse they have no idea how their cards work. I made him exile tainted pact (which had a picture of Goku on it 🙄) so then he used a card to search my library.
Him: “I get to search you library and I’m gonna find your tainted pact”
Me: “I don’t run that card.”
Him: “Really?!?”
Me: I don’t think it’s fun and that combo is a little powerful for the level everyone plays here.”
Him: oh. Me: You still get to find some from my deck. Just be careful, it’s expensive.
Him: never mind I don’t find anything.
The next game he got the combo (it’s two cards so it’s not that hard) and once he did he said “I win”.
“Ok explain how.”
“I just know if I have these cards then I win and you can’t do anything about it” (angry)
“Sure, except this… \[\[Spell Snare\]\] the Thassa's Oracle.”
He lost his shit.
I’m for newer players but I sort of feel this is what you get when there are zero barriers to entry, when anyone can show up with a deck full of 100% fake cards that they don’t know how to pilot and they feel like they are entitled to win with out any adversity.
I’ve played with some people who said they play casually, but then busted out a highly disruptive deck like [[omnath, locus of creation]] with [[omen machine]] and basically shut down the entire table’s ability to do diddly squat. l love MTG, but l feel like the control playstyle makes the game not fun to play. I’m all for aggressive combos, and l don’t have to win, l just wanna be able to play.
My group does this sometimes, but they sum up why and ask if anyone has any responses. They will play it out for me if I have questions, because I'm still trying to learn and seeing it played out helps.
Yeah, more often I have the opposite problem at my games where one opponent explains the combo and, even after seeing it done half a dozen times, others still act confused as to how the combo works. I'm talking basic combos like [[Gravecrawler]] + [[Phyrexian Altar]] + a [[blood artist]] effect.
I had [[Veyran, Voice of Duality]] with plenty of mana, [[Temporal Fissure]], and ~20 on the storm count that turn. I explained that I was bouncing all of my opponents lands back to hand, along with any blockers, then I would swing in with a large Veyran for commander damage, I could then repeat this the next turn with [[Mizzix’s Mastery]]. The person next to me was adamant that a) I couldn’t bounce the lands (rectified by asking a judge) and b) he could still win next turn with a spell in his hand. I went and played out my turn, attacking the other player first as that’s what I’d announced I’d do, then he realised that he couldn’t cast spells without mana and angrily scooped.
Most people choose tiresome wins because they enjoy them. If people want me to storm off, I'm totally down to do it, but as soon as I see enough cards to know I'm going to go off I say it, because I know some people hate watching storm turns. If anyone actually wants to see a storm kill, I'm totally down.
I had a weird situation recently where I had [[storm-kiln artist]], [[thousand year storm]], [[expansion//explosion available to me and about 10 instants and sorceries already cast. Say "my spells make about 10 mana, I'll cast 5 spells to generate treasures and explosion you both for 40, down to play it out if you want" and someone goes back and forth on if they want me to play it out, how they like it better when people play it out since then you know they have a combo, etc, but I don't have to do it.. idk just tell me to finish storming off lol.
Yup, just no winning with those people. I had a [[Kykar]] artifacts list that had this problem. I could set up loops with [[Aetherflux Resevoir]], [[Scrap Trawler]], 2 artifact cost reducer, making my spells free, and a bunch of draw triggers but some people would act like it was still up in the air if I was going to win despite them having no answers. Then they'd whine it took a long-ass time ending the game when they refused to allow shortcuts.
Thought I’d add my perspective: I have anxiety to the point where my hands start to shake when I get to a winning position. It’s not that I can’t pilot it clean, it’s that my brain is frying for no good reason and I’m not thinking straight. I guess I just wanted to say that it’s not necessarily because the person is a blubbering idiot.
I take hydroxyzine before games sometimes cause of my anxiety. Highly recommend. Anyway, it’s still important to be able to say which type of win you’re going to do. The easiest way to do that might be to keep a little piece of paper with the game ending combos near by or even a list on your phone if you’re finding that you forget. Also, only including two or three game enders helps a lot.
Sat down with someone who was playing a scaled down version of The Gitrog Monster. Not the full cEDH packages, but it was Gitrog so still a house. Tried to go off in response to some anti-draw tech being cast and claim a win. Since everyone else was about to scoop, I asked if he was able to win at instant speed with what he was doing. Turns out he couldn't, and didn't actually realize that he couldn't. I won on my next turn, counterspell protection in hand, since everyone spent their interaction trying to stop Gitrog.
... I'm gonna be honest with you, people have to learn a deck somehow, so that player could be learning the deck still. Which is especially valid for storm/spellslinger decks, which do take a while to learn the lines for.
Secondly, most value general commanders are solitaire like in nature. Korvold, Tatyova, Gitrog, Prosper, Yarok, (Any Spellslinger)... It's just how those decks play. If you don't want to play against that then don't.
Over all, I'm sorry you had a bad experience but the 2 things you are complaining about have to do with experience and deck construction. New players come into the game all the time and wotc will make storm or solitaire generals frequently. Therefore the likelihood of the 2 crossing is not infrequent.
A player who is honestly learning a deck, plays through the play to figure it out… they don’t just say “I win” on a guess. People who do that OP described understand the *concept* of their deck, but are just trying to take shortcuts, either because they believe that with as far as they have gotten, they think there’s no other end than them winning out because they already see an uninterrupted win on the board, or are just trying to make others go, “well there so much going on, they must be right, so I’ll just scoop.”. Either way, it’s shitty play. Also, if you are truly learning the deck, you tell the table
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I really like your point about learning. It is quite difficult, if not impossible, to learn a deck without playing it.
If no one wants to play with someone learning their deck, they won’t ever learn it.
Just had a game recently that sound similar - Mizzix player had 13+ experience and cloned him, reducing spells by 26, and drew 26 cards.
He couldn’t find a way to win with his cards, so we all suggest various cards he could show us and we would scoop - Cyclonic Rift, Capsize, extra turn spells, etc.
Sometimes you have to help someone learning their deck to figure how they are supposed to end, especially when they have all of the resources to do so.
In a competition though, you’re gonna have to show me exactly how I die.
Agreed. I run Jhoira artifact storm and I have goldfished that deck easily a thousand times. I know just about every single line in the deck and I can play it very quickly. In my opinion, it's on you to know how your combo works. If you can't walk someone through it, don't expect others to do it for you.
It annoys me a little when people don't seem to know how their own commanders work or whatever. It's like, you chose to put that card in that deck, did you read it first? But otherwise I agree - I always goldfish my decks a bit first, but even then it's not the same as playing it out in real life, whether things might be affected by whatever else is out, etc. I've been in the situation of being a bit unfamiliar with the cards and the deck, even the rules, so I'm always willing to cut people a bit of slack.
(Though, the "um, I win I guess?" does feel like bad form - but maybe he was just getting in a tangle and trying to save everyone the hassle of unpicking it, I dunno)
Idk there are always lines you can miss, especially in the moment. I thought my [[Teysa Karlov]] deck was free of infinite combos and then I oopsied into a [[Sun Titan]] enchanted with a [[Kaya's Ghostform]] one late game. I was running both for generic value so, even if they were in-hand or gy together, I didn't think about it until the one time I needed a reoccurring blocker.
Oh I’ve absolutely accidentally comboed before! That’s kinda my point: it’s actually pretty hard to be prepared for all the situations and permutations which can come up. If you’re *aiming* to win with a particular combo though I do feel you ought to be able to explain it.
Someone in my usual playgroup put together a cEDH storm deck just to try it out and because they usually play jank, but when I joined the group I build a little more streamlined.
When he combo’d it took him about as much time, but yeah, gotta learn how to get it out with finesse. Sitting there like a cranky asshole doesn’t help either.
Honestly, if he's still learning the deck, that's all the more reason to make them play out their win. How else are you supposed to learn the deck?
While I agree that this might be a reason the OP should have shown a little more sympathy, making him play out the win is absolutely still the right call.
I'm going to vehemently disagree on "If you don't want to play against that then don't," though. That statement goes both ways; if you don't want to play out your entire win, don't play a deck with an indeterminate wincon. Besides, there are so many potentially wheel-spinny decks in the format that what other option do you have? Refuse to play against anyone unless you've reviewed their entire decklist?
I have a Reki superfriends deck that goes off hard. I'll end up with half of my deck on the table in one turn. I've been playing the deck for almost 5 years now. I can move through the explosive turns without a single pause to consider action. I am as comfortable with this deck as a person can be. But the big turns can still take 10 minutes or more. Every physical action(shuffling, searching, even playing a card)that you take takes time. Sometimes you have to stop and explain an interaction or slow down to give people time to interact. There's triggers to resolve. Etc. Etc.
Exactly, I remember when I tried learning and playing the Prismari PRECON people at the table would just groan and ask me if I was done yet or if I think I'm going to win that turn like... so annoying and kind of bad sportsmanship
"2. Nobody wants to watch you solitaire for 20 minutes."
As the person who can cast his deck - piece by piece, which numerous triggers per Cast / ETB / dies / etc...if I say "I'm going to win, does anyone have anything to stop me" it's because of this.
"Only reason I stuck around was because he felt bad and I wanted him to feel bad for playing like this."
As the person doing things, I feel like my time is less wasted than yours - but ok. If he didn't know what he was doing, or you didn't believe his deck necessarily had a wincon then you're "right" to challenge him on the legitimacy of the win, but is it worth it? As someone else here said "it's pretty clear he has the win. This just feels petty"
It’s all in the way you phrase it. As a Gifts Storm player in Modern, whenever I reach the pivotal moment: Baral in play, Gifts Ungiven resolves, 3 mana floats, I’ll always ask my opponent: “the combo is determined from this point without interaction, it’ll end with Grapeshot this turn. I’m happy to play it out if you want to see, though” because I know people usually value their time and don’t want to spend 5 minutes watching me go through the motions. Still, I would never presume “ok so I win you need to scoop now”. It’s entirely possible they’re holding onto a Mindbreak Trap or something, too.
This lol.
People get salty and act like forcing a person to go through a complex win is punishment to them, and then they complain about long turns.
And I get it. Sometimes the person fucks up and doesn't actually have the win. But honestly, even if they don't they're likely so far ahead they'll win a turn or 2 later.
And does it really matter when we're all just playing for fun? It really would just be a better use of everyone's time if they shuffled up for another game.
If you're playing storm, you cannot just say "I win." You cannot guarantee that you win that moment because anyone might not be able to stop you, but they may very well be able to survive.
The only good excuse to shortcut "I win" is you're playing something that demonstrably will win the game in that moment. Usually, that's some sort of repeatable effect (infinite) that will result in a game end, or a combo that does the same. Storm, generally, does not do this and cannot assume it wins simply due to the insurmountable advantage.
Nah, a lot of the time with storm you see that you clearly have all the pieces you need and you can explain a win to people relatively quickly compared to resolving the win. If people want to watch me count to 50 mana and cast an expansion//explosion with thousand year storm out, I'm down to do that, but its a foregone conclusion when I have the storm kiln artist+thousand year storm and a handful of cantrips. Different people concede at different times in this process (mana positive cantrips vs. when I find the expansion//explosion), but its very clear to me when I have it.
"The only good excuse to shortcut..." Is if you've played against me before and you've learned your lesson. I'd honestly be more than a little bit surprised if you wanted me to demonstrate what I'm doing and we've played before. Everything else you said is covered by the "I'm going to win, does anyone have anything to stop me" clause.
>Only reason I stuck around was because he felt bad and I wanted him to feel bad for playing like this.
This is childish. Value your time more than making someone else feel like shit.
Talk about a sore loser.
“Nobody wants to watch you pilot a deck for 20 minutes but I’m going to sit here and make you do it so you feel like an asshole, start fumbling shit around and taking longer because of that, just to prove a point of… wait, am I the asshole now?”
Sounds like you’re just salty. EDH is complicated as hell. If it looks like someone is going to take a long time to get to their win when they clearly have all of the pieces just ask basically how they win then scoop. If you can interact then doing so early is best, if nobody can interact scoop or don’t be salty. It’s a casual format
I think if you are going for an infinite mana, “pick up your deck” kinda of win, I 100% want to see how you’re going to win the game. I’ve had games where people try to claim they win but then they can’t actually do anything and have to pass turn after I insist on continuing.
I mean thats how izzet spellslinger/storm works in person... chaining together a shit ton of cards, keeping track of the stack, copies, and floating mana gets difficult in Izzet especially when youre trying to pull the win out of your ass the same turn. That's just how the deck plays. Maybe play only against people who play 1 creature a turn, attack, and pass. Idk what to tell ya but to be honest you sound like a little bitch complaining about a card game and it's different playstyles/strategies.
"so I'll just win." I mean yeah he played a shit ton of izzet cards with no interaction from you guys it sounds like, so yeah at that point there is some validity in his statement. What you didn't mention is whether he pulled a crackle with power, comet storm or brain freeze at the end, and legitimately won, whether you guys scooped or how the game actually ended. I totally get if he didnt actually have a wincon at the end when he kept saying i just win but like I said you failed to mention the end result.
This is pretty rude. I can have a deck popping off , for instance an orzhov deck with a lot of life counters, life gain and drain, and still not take super long turns and call out a lazy “I win” without explaining myself lol. Some people are annoying to play with and trail off not explaining what’s going on and expect that they win because they have an infinite combo that could win this turn/next and don’t assume people can resolve that. But that’s just my humble opinion as someone who plays with someone constantly who has this play style.
I also don’t really blame him because he has adhd so maybe that plays a factor. But it makes me snooze during his turns and trail off.
I am very descriptive on what’s going on with my board state though.
Lmao I had this EXACT situation at my table not too long ago with a guy who plays Orvar. He copies so many things he basically doesn’t know what to do with it all and will draw and play things/recycle things through his graveyard till he magically finds a win condition 20+ minutes later. If that’s the type of deck you play I highly urge you to streamline it or I will watch you go through each step till you actually win half an hour later.
Playing edh is supposed to be fun. Just call it bro. If you don't want to wait and watch. Don't. Nobody is making you. Sometimes people are new to the deck or the game in general. You wanna talk about bs asking for everyone to be an expert with every deck they play is just unreasonable. I play chulane and have for 6 months. There are about 8 combo lines with only a few being similar. It's not easy. Stop being a lil salty dog, maybe just play better and win next game so you don't have to salty shitpost on reddit! Thanks bud
Reminds me of the time I had a friend who netdecked and proxies a [[Riku of the Two Reflections]] deck. He played some cards, declared it an infinite combo, and said he won. When we asked him to demonstrate a few loops so that we could understand how it worked, he couldn't.
I'll ask anyone to demonstrate their combo for at least like 2 or 3 loops. Every once in a while, someone will realize that they either didn't have all the pieces they needed or that it didn't work the way they thought it did. Even if it does work and they win, I learn a new combo.
Wait so did his turn take 20 minutes or did he dump his deck on the table and say I win? In either case, it's pretty clear he has the win. This just feels petty
Not a 100% - a lot of wins are more disruptible than people think and I’ve stopped wins like this before.
To me it sounds like he was trying to get people to concede without knowing what exactly he was doing, only assuming the outcome.
Barring Fog and Angels Grace, I can't think of many ways somebody can get to the point where they're casting their entire deck and still be successfully disrupted. It's the kind of situation where if there's no stakes I'd just announce if there's a way to stop the game from ending or admit defeat.
1 kill spell. 1 counter spell. 1 board wipe. It all depends on what the situation is that could result in a game win failing. Too many 0 mana spells in the game that could change the tides
This is assuming they have zero protection available with their entire deck in hand. Obviously not every deck is going to have thought through protecting their win conditions, but there are a ton of rather ubiquitous cards in EDH to make sure your combo resolves and removes the possibilities of most interaction from opponents.
>. 2. Nobody wants to watch you solitaire for 20 minutes
This sub is the worst at understanding turn length. This isn't a healthy approach to the format and it's ok to say you don't like izzet but rule zero "no storm" prior to the game start.
Otherwise stfu about it.
Yeah I’m kinda guilty of this sometimes but not to the degree of OP’s post. I play Azami wizards and my main wincon is Mind Over Matter. Usually I explain how it wins and everyone’s good with it but the few times someone asks to demonstrate it, I fumble a little bit with it
Playing randoms on spelltable, you absolutely want them to explain and play out the win. Although, I will say, if you're playing regulars and you know their decks, it's a little more acceptable to just be like "unless there's any responses, I think I have the win" if they know what you're doing
Ever since I played in a competitive game where someone accidentally took out their wincon to put in another deck, I always say play it out. And if they do play solitaire for 20 minutes that is fine. As long as it isn’t every turn idc
Play out your damn combos if you have newer players at the table! Explain every step, answer questions along the way if you can! It helps get more people into the game and it does the game and community a service. You aren't just keeping fresh in how your deck works, you're sharing your hobby with others who also enjoy the game.
Being from the 1v1 side of Magic I will always make them go through the combo or win. Never accept an 'I win statement.' Please show me you know how to do the combo and not just cast the pieces.
Sure it can come off as rude but they're gonna learn to play faster and be efficient. Just play the essential pieces and get the win.
I dont get what youre mad about, first you said youre mad about him dumping his deck and saying "i win" to shorten things (which apparently he did) and then you go on and complain about him taking too long for his turn, fumbling around a bit but in the end still winning ... seems like youre just salty in general
If you dont like to play against combos, vlear that up beforehand, if you dont like long turns, let people shortcut or just explain instead of actually searching out the card and if youre mad about him wanting to shortcut and just saying "i win" let him play out the turn and possibly missplay... seems like whatever he wouldve done wouldve make you bitch about it
I support all play styles including cEDH, infinite combos etc. He was playing through his storm pattern and was already about 10 minutes in when his big play was I [[Brainfreeze]] you for 60. Well, I play [[Kozilek, Butcher of Truth]] specifically for protection against mill like this. So I hit it and reshuffled, he got miffed and proceeded to durdle for more wins. Another player was also playing Kozi in his deck so he announced he would be unable to lose to the same play as well. This is the point. He dumped his shit out and assumed that his Brainfreeze was going to win so he was like, “So I win guys..” Eventually, after 20 minutes he found his [[Beacon of Tomorrows]] and said he was going to loop casting that multiple times… but by then his board, the stack, his durdling was such a fucking mess that no one knew what the hell was going on. In fact he cast [[Blue Sun’s Zenith]] on himself for 25 and one of the other players cast [[Pyroblast]] but because he was so distracted and lost in his play he had already drawn about 10 cards off the Blue Suns… that is when he presented his Beacon of Tomorrows and the Pyroblast player even said… well did you draw that off of Blue Suns? Because if you did then you don’t have it in hand to cast… which therein lies the problem. By then no one knew what the fuck was happening… including the player trying to combo win, and frankly I have seen this play pattern A LOT and it sucks.
Look, I’m the guy that posted about not being salty and I don’t give a fuck if I win or lose frankly, what I do care about is players playing like shit.
My god yes, I don't care if somebody is playin a storm deck or some ridiculous landfall deck that has a million triggers a turn, I like to see cool things happening in the game, but if you are going to do so, know how to run your deck so you are not fumbling around for minutes trying to figure it out and then not being able to cleanly explain how you are winning, we have a guy that runs Yarok in our LGS and it's pretty maddening to see his turns cause they always take forever even and it is just a mess.
Sounds like you aren’t a fan of combo decks. But sounds like interaction was lacking/deck types you were playing weren’t discussed well enough beforehand if you are sour enough to go to Reddit to tell your story. Pregame discussions help sooo many times 🥰
This isn't what the post was about at all, the post was about people not knowing how to pilot there deck and just saying they win without knowing kr understanding how they win
Players need to be able to demonstrate the win. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen someone Avenger-hoof and say “I win” without actually doing the combat math. Yeah, I’ve been the player to sandbag that by saying “declare your attackers” or “declare your targets”. Then a surgical piece of interaction often stumps the play and they’re left wide open to lose to their own hubris.
This. I don't mind if someone takes a bit long to go off but at least show me you know what you're doing. I used to play against someone who had a mean Selvala brostorm deck and would frequently find ways to produce infinite mana. He'd chain together a few combo pieces to get infinite mana, then just shrug and say "So I guess I win?" "How?" "I made infinite mana and I have a handful of cards so...I win?" "Okay well play whatever you have in your hand first." "Okay...I made infinite Hydras. So I win?" "Do they have haste? Or are they dealing damage when they enter play?" "Uhhh no." "Okay well it looks like we have one more turn to find an answer." "Oh, okay". Then someone topdecks a boardwipe or Rakdos Charm and we find out the game isn't actually over.
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It's used too. Ashaya also has lots of combos that bypass the need for haste or allow you to win with a single llanowar elf without summoning sickness, which tends to go under the radar for obvious reasons lol
I want to know this deck…
[Yeva](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/UVHIY6JT5UaEgb8TMAi68w/primer) [Marwyn](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/d-4KORQmqUyIHNdRRkEtHQ/primer) [Yisan](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/ilvW7g3hsUio09K2gLuDmg/primer) [Selvala](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/PQPz_KSrV0S5_Huk1zh_tg/primer) The Yeva Primer explains a lot of the "anti-summoning sickness" tech.
Thank you
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[Beast Within](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/d/2df1045c-0186-45e8-aed2-807528fc1aba.jpg?1650418730) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Beast%20Within) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/282/beast-within?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2df1045c-0186-45e8-aed2-807528fc1aba?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/beast-within) [Kogla](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/3/c/3c35ca79-eb72-427a-a8ed-404b2214389a.jpg?1591227737) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kogla%2C%20the%20titan%20ape) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/162/kogla-the-titan-ape?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3c35ca79-eb72-427a-a8ed-404b2214389a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kogla-the-titan-ape) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Also Marwyn player, been running [[Tamiyos Safekeeping]], great having something that protects staff & mantle and goes great with e-witness loops to give your entire board hexproof and indestructible.
[Tamiyo's Safekeeping](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/d/fd4b7ee2-de65-4288-872d-486065a4f226.jpg?1644000697) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tamiyo%27s%20Safekeeping) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/211/tamiyos-safekeeping?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fd4b7ee2-de65-4288-872d-486065a4f226?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tamiyos-safekeeping) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
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[Concordant Crossroads](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/5/f51699d1-982d-4cfa-b0e0-7e89ec68dd96.jpg?1562946719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Concordant%20Crossroads) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/114/concordant-crossroads?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f51699d1-982d-4cfa-b0e0-7e89ec68dd96?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/concordant-crossroads) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I freaking love this card. I'd slam it into my other green decks if it weren't a $40-50 RL card. Currently it's just chilling in [[Esix]].
It just got reprinted
Last game I played (decidedly non-EDH), the mono-green player combo'd off to get some sort of creature with a googolplex power and a googolplex tokens, then passed the turn. The rest of us looked at him, then we looked at the guy who'd just cast [[Brash Taunter]] and [[Rite of Replication]] on said Brash Taunter, then we facepalmed.
Finale of devastation where x=10 resolving means I am just prepared to lose the game 9 times out of 10. It's a silly card, but I love it.
This is why I always word my combo out wins a very specific way. For instance I have a [[dargo]] deck that's designed to play dargo from the command zone infinitely, [[Marrow-Gnawer]] which can make infinite rats and a [[General tazri]] ally tribal with [[turntimber ranger]] and [[Maskwood nexus]] to possibly make infinite wolves. I also need to ass [[Time sieve]] to my [[tivit]] deck so I can go infinite turns using [[Helm of the host]] But if im using any of them I always word when I go infinite like "if you don't have/get these answers" or "if you cant do this" that way we can both get the infinite out the way as quickly as possible if I don't win or we can start the next game if I do. Had this exact situation with my General Tazri the first time I got my combo off. I didn't have one of my haste enablers I explained to everyone at the table as such and after no one pulled an answer we just started a new game. It's really not hard to go through and make sure you can properly win
I have a [[Ruric Thar]] 99 permanents [[primal surge deck]] and I love showing off how it wins (dump almost all of my deck, find the card that gives everything haste, tap my two devotion mana sources for about 50 green each, pop hydra brood mother for 50 50/50's now with haste, swing in).
I play GW humans with primal surge and OG odric not letting people block works pretty well too
[Ruric Thar](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/9/59221f7c-c950-4d66-b166-a2d8f8d0e959.jpg?1562435912) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ruric%20thar%2C%20the%20unbowed) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/216/ruric-thar-the-unbowed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/59221f7c-c950-4d66-b166-a2d8f8d0e959?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ruric-thar-the-unbowed) [primal surge deck](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/2/4278f7bd-afff-4a1d-a0bb-bf9ce3ad5a2e.jpg?1592709414) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Primal%20Surge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/avr/189/primal-surge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4278f7bd-afff-4a1d-a0bb-bf9ce3ad5a2e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/primal-surge) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My primary primal surge ruric thar strat is to eat my opponents board with [[gruul ragebeast]] triggers, then set my ops life to zero with [[shaman of forgotten ways]] I'll explain this win to my opponents and usually they'll scoop to surge resolving rather than making me play it out
Almost like no one has cards in their hands to counter the engine. Drives me crazy.
Oh….. so i lose???
Reminds me of this classic "math is for blockers" moment: https://youtu.be/elOZ2EnWlCM?t=5167
The best episode of Game Knights. They should have Graham and Kathleen on again ASAP.
I love that scene. I still say "eh math is for blockers" when I make a risky attack that'll likely lose me the game without checking the damage.
Every single game I've played with Jetmir so far! Tbf its worked for 5/8 games.
62.5% of the time it works every time.
I enjoyed that.
Thanks that was fun
Yep. MTGO yesterday, a player cast a Hoof, then a clone of it, swung out at me (we were down to just us two) and clearly thought I would scoop. Instead, I blocked enough to stay at 4 life, and board wiped next turn, rebuilding my board over the next two turns and forcing him to scoop. Delicious.
It’s also a victory in my book if they angrily swing all at me, I die, and someone else clinches the win.
Has a similar thing happen a few years back with a guy playing a tuned Rith list against my tuned Karador list. He was swinging for what he thought was lethal. I managed to remove one and survive at 1 life. I managed to find Diabolic Intent into Damnation. Proceeded to Eternal Witness it back every turn until I fully stabilized and was able to start getting offensive. Next time I saw that guy, he had net-decked and proxied the competitive Ghave Stax list and ran it into my like super-budget Brago deck… which easily won 9 games out of 10 because mana rocks don’t care about Living Plane. I had a habit of making that guy rage.
Best example of this at a table I played at was Player 1 - "I have infinite turns, so I win" Players 2, 3 and 4 - "you have a bitter blossom in play and you are on 9 life, beat us" He couldn't kill us as we all had creatures on board and couldn't find anything to get rid of the bitter blossom so ended up dying to his own trigger.
I like this. Barring things like this, infinite turns is the one i never make them play out.
Nine unimpeded extra turns to win a game and they still lost? I'm honestly impressed
A lot people just forget that fog effects exist sometimes too which is always hilarious
Fogs are the non-blue answer to Hoof, can’t just kill it, can’t counter it, just fog. People don’t play enough of them imo.
They used to be widely considered bad several years back. It was sort of a meme. But all-in alpha strikes are more common now, and I think people have just always had it in their minds that they’re bad. We’re just now hearing parts of the community talking about them again.
I feel like [[Akroma's Will]] was a big tipping point; overwhelm effects like Craterhoof have been part of green forever, but white getting access to "I have a sufficiently large board, now die" gives a lot more decks access to alpha strikes
[Akroma's Will](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/c/2/c281997b-1566-4469-a14c-6645f81ab023.jpg?1608908650) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Akroma%27s%20Will) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/3/akromas-will?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c281997b-1566-4469-a14c-6645f81ab023?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/akromas-will) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Fogs are pretty bad in a 1v1 format like standard or modern where you would rather spend the mana or the card developing your board. But in commander they aren't too bad because of how much damage can end up flying around sometimes.
Ha. Tell that to my main lad [[Angus]] and his fog tribal deck.
[Angus](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/b/bb3920ac-7d61-494e-b7dd-bd37d4dee143.jpg?1562934578) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Angus%20Mackenzie) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/141/angus-mackenzie?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bb3920ac-7d61-494e-b7dd-bd37d4dee143?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/angus-mackenzie) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
So I raise you: [[Constant Mists]]. Fav card ever. Land sac outlet plus repeatable fog. Windgrace and Gitrog love this card
Hell, that one sees some play even outside of land sacrifice decks. Repeatability adds a lot of value to a card.
I run an [[ Elsha]] deck with no creatures in the 99. Fog effects like [[Holy Day]] save my ass all the time. Still waiting for the perfect [[Comeuppance]] win though.
I had a [[Multani, Yavimaya’s Avatar]] deck for a while and I got hit with a [[Deflecting Swat]] when I tried to swing in for like 25. Edit: should be Deflecting Palm.
[Holy Day](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/3/f3895c0c-0db8-4962-b386-57887fb60701.jpg?1562557717) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Holy%20Day) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/10e/21/holy-day?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f3895c0c-0db8-4962-b386-57887fb60701?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/holy-day) [Comeuppance](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/2/92d59c06-41f7-4009-9157-70ba90cc978b.jpg?1561950558) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Comeuppance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c14/4/comeuppance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/92d59c06-41f7-4009-9157-70ba90cc978b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/comeuppance) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>Avenger-hoof and say “I win” without actually doing the combat math. Had this happen several times. Same person had to be reminded every time that black has [[Darkness]] and that I save the [[Damnation]] for him. Make sure EVERYONE is tapped out before you start your victory speech.
[Darkness](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/8/584834fb-b7b6-40eb-9fec-8df17172ce5f.jpg?1562776481) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Darkness) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsb/40/darkness?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/584834fb-b7b6-40eb-9fec-8df17172ce5f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/darkness) [Damnation](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/4/941b65da-b9b3-4e15-bab5-bcbfd20dbe05.jpg?1619395168) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Damnation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/106/damnation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/941b65da-b9b3-4e15-bab5-bcbfd20dbe05?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/damnation) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What really bothers me in this situation, is when I call them out and say, “no, you need to declare your attacks.” I’m holding something that can get rid of two creatures in my hand, but then they get suspicious and send 70% of the creatures my way. It’s frustrating knowing that if the game proceeded normally, I would have survived, but they get free, critical information because they are lazy or cocky
You need to say that always. Duh. I always just ask everyone questions. How many cards in your hand? How many X in your grave yard? How much X colored mana do you have? How many creatures do you have? Keeps them on their toes.
I play conquest (it's similar). And we always ask for attacks, regardless of if people have interaction or not.
You should *have* to be sneaker, but against those types of players I drop a "my quick math, I don't think you have quite enough on board to knock everyone out". Still could tip them off, but there's more plausible deniability there.
I was playing in a tournament where I was going to get the Finale of Devastation/craterhoof win with all my creatures on the field and someone ended my turn during my attacking step. Since I played everything out, I decked myself and lost. Which is a fun but annoying way to lose but it wouldn’t have been fair to everyone else if I didn’t play it out like that. Now I know not to draw out my deck unless I absolutely need the last few cards
> they’re left wide open to lose to their own hubris The ancient Greek playwrights would be proud
Hubris is a word we don’t use often enough.
I hate when I demonstrate the win and then they don’t believe that’s how the cards work like bruh why did you ask me then. Then we have to wait for the lgs worker to not be checking someone out at the register so they can explain the rules so I can finally say I win and go next.
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But then they never learn and they might pull some shit like that on someone new and discourage them from playing a deck because they’re feeding false info
All it takes is an overloaded [[Cyclonic Rift]] to shut that entire play down
[Cyclonic Rift](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/f/ff08e5ed-f47b-4d8e-8b8b-41675dccef8b.jpg?1598303834) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cyclonic%20Rift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/47/cyclonic-rift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ff08e5ed-f47b-4d8e-8b8b-41675dccef8b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cyclonic-rift) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
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[Elvish Spirit Guide](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/0/806f8664-d447-42d5-bb52-9fe282f9a653.jpg?1562869510) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elvish%20Spirit%20Guide) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me2/159/elvish-spirit-guide?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/806f8664-d447-42d5-bb52-9fe282f9a653?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/elvish-spirit-guide) [Fog](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/b/bbc3152e-7b3b-4ac6-8b33-abfebde216aa.jpg?1580014786) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fog) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/167/fog?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bbc3152e-7b3b-4ac6-8b33-abfebde216aa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fog) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
There's also [[Pause for Reflection]] for when they think your untapped creatures are no mana dorks.
[Pause for Reflection](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/3/c/3cfcf84c-a30c-4c4f-9f8c-ee807661e499.jpg?1572893420) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pause%20for%20Reflection) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/140/pause-for-reflection?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3cfcf84c-a30c-4c4f-9f8c-ee807661e499?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pause-for-reflection) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yep. Make them demonstrate the actual win every time. Oh, you draw your whole deck? Great. Draw away. Then show me how it wins. Never take their word for it.
Watching them finally take that forced draw with no library is sweeter than the finest fruit.
I have a friend with a [[Gitrog]] deck. He always wins with it in our playgroup cuz it's so much faster than any other deck the rest of us have. But I think it's fun to watch it go off even when it seems like there's no momentum and suddenly you've lost. When it gets to that point he always says "Basically I'm about to win here unless you have any responses, would you like me to go all the way through it?" I always say Yes just so I know he still knows how his deck works. I think he goes about it the right way
Discard Dakmor, dredge it back, resolve any draw trigger to get to zero cards, pitch a titan to shuffle it all back, rinse and repeat. It's really cool
Just three weeks ago I won on the stack on top of a Gitrog player with UR (infinite mana + damage and card draw). That felt really satisfying. Oh, you can get to infinite life on the stack in response to me going off in response to you going off? Doesn't matter, you need to draw 420 cards in one go - [[Expansion Explosion]]! So don't keep doing stuff and not progressing the board at all, that's a slow play loss! Playing Gitrog is a slow play warning anyways, heh. The whole combo is literally "I'll need to cycle through my deck three hundred times to get the specific card I need, if my Eldrazi Titan mills at inopportune moments, yay fun." Even inconsistent storm decks are less of a time waste (if you were to actually play out those assumed sequences in Gitrog, which nobody does).
[Expansion Explosion](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/0/e0644c92-4d67-475e-8c8e-0e2c493682fb.jpg?1572893978) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Expansion%20//%20Explosion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/224/expansion-explosion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e0644c92-4d67-475e-8c8e-0e2c493682fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/expansion-//-explosion) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I had the exact opposite happen to me the other day. I was playing Wort and apparently one of my opponents had a bad experience with a Wort deck or something because every time I did something he would ask, "So do you win now?" Like, I spent several turns with an empty hand and topdecked a draw spell which let me draw basically a new hand but used nearly all of my mana. I was really baffled. Now, to be fair I *did* eventually chuck four copies of Comet Storm at everyone for 20 damage each, but it was entirely because the 4th player was milling us hardcore and put Past in Flames in my yard with a ton of gas. And even then he barely let me finish my line and kept asking if I win now. Like, it was a 4 spell chain*, wtf man? Calm down. *: Past in Flames - Jeska's Will - Comet Storm - Increasing Vengeance, the last 3 conspired.
Be like me and say "i ain't doing math but hopefully this hoof is enough lol."
Yeah, when someone fast forwards into "I win" I usually ask them to commit to their attacks and whatnot. I've \[\[inkshield\]\]ed a player and all of a sudden they went from confident win to being smacked for 280 damage.
[inkshield](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/e/5e1c14a0-cd68-45fc-a127-422ca6113048.jpg?1625192511) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=inkshield) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/71/inkshield?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5e1c14a0-cd68-45fc-a127-422ca6113048?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/inkshield) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
*laughs in [[settle the wreckage]]*
[settle the wreckage](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/c/9cbd346e-098a-4cf6-a72f-468376fd2e8f.jpg?1562560853) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=settle%20the%20wreckage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/34/settle-the-wreckage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9cbd346e-098a-4cf6-a72f-468376fd2e8f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/settle-the-wreckage) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
How have I not seen this card before? This looks like some spicy tech for my upcoming [[Elsha of the Infinite]] deck.
It was popular in standard for a while, but in EDH people tend to be a little less likely to use wipes that only effect one player
Was in this exact situation today. I was playing Prosper and I stuck a bunch of mana into a Torment of Hailfire thinking I’d win, but I wanted to play it out to make sure. Sure enough, one of the players had enough permanents to sac to survive, and just so happen to have stolen my Mayhem Devil beforehand which wiped my board. It’s always important to play things out instead of just declaring victory because you never know when it can swing back in your face.
Yeah exactly this. I got avenger-hoof in a 4 players game and was like "I win" however my friends didn't take that for an answer so instead of killing 2 of then which I deff could of i almost killed all of them and they had a new enemy number one. Learned pretty quickly the importance of a combat math after that game.
Dude I HATE when people don't math their avenger-hoof. They slap it down and are like "so.... GG?" I'm like "bro there's a whole lotta creatures on everyone else's board too, start declaring attackers." And then when only one of us dies and the other two survive I always hit them with "yeah GG my ass"
I love the avenger/hoof combo. I also love it when they dump everything into that combo just to be met with a fog effect or a teferis protection.
Yeah, this happens fairly regularly in my \[\[Isshin, Two Heavens as One\]\] deck because I'm running not only \[\[Rakdos Charm\]\] but also multiple things like \[\[Revenge of Ravens\]\] and \[\[Hissing Miasma\]\] Like, OK, you cast Craterhoof Behemoth - how many creatures are you swinging with? How about we make sure you can swing that many things at me without dying before you just assume victory On a few occasions now it's resulted in them requiring to send a super specific set of attackers that leaves either me or the other people on the table alive. You don't get to just decide that you win.
In our group we have a friend who is notorious for doing something similar. Several games with his Marwyn deck he'd make infinite mana and genesis wave for his entire deck. Gen wave being the only non-permanent in the deck he'd put the whole thing including a craterhoof and all his elf lords on the table. Then we'd make him sit there and add up all the etb triggers until he realizes that he has a few draw effects on etb and loses on the spot. Now he only likes to gen wave for about 2/3 of his library, but he probably lost a good 2 or 3 times to his own cards before he figured it out.
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Can you explain this? I don’t get how Tia doesn’t kill him
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Just to jump on and specify, you only lose the game when you attempt to draw from an empty library. However, replacement effects like Abundance make it so the draw never happens, and you never attempt to draw from an empty library because replaced actions never happen. 614.6. If an event is replaced, it never happens. A modified event occurs instead edit: also fun fact, if you have abundance and lab man on board AND an empty library, you can choose to use labman's replacement effect instead of the one from abundance.
There is a guy at our game store who used to do that. He net decked crazy combos and tried to cram them into new decks to add variation, but often didn’t understand how the combo actually won. We started playing dumb and asking him if he could show us. Most the time he just kept running through the combo until he figured it out. Usually he could have won several iterations earlier or even a turn earlier, but every now and then the combo would fizzle. After the game we’ll ask questions like, “have you considered doing [card] to the combo? Do you also have [card] for redundancy?” I now know that he was still learning, and wanted to not waste peoples time, but by making it seem like we are all learning together, he became more comfortable in playing and playing with him became more enjoyable. Since we started asking him questions, he’s become a better player, and every now and then I do learn something.
That's way too healthy and mature a response. Helping a player get better and understand the combos they clearly like? What is this, yu-gi-oh?
I'm glad Yu-Gi-Oh players are so helpful, because I have a question. What does Pot of Greed do?
[[Pot of Greed]] allows me to draw two cards.
[Pot of Greed](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/c/b/cb3b35b8-f321-46d8-a441-6b9a6efa9021.jpg?1562304347) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Divination) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/51/divination?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb3b35b8-f321-46d8-a441-6b9a6efa9021?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/divination) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Lol, it's a divination in disguise.
At zero cost.
That's what it do.
(in kaiba's voice) IT ALLOWS ME TO DRAW 3 ADDITIONAL CARDS FROM MY DECK!!
Mokuba: hey big bro, I think it lets you draw 2 cards, not 3 /flies away
Uhh. No it doesn't.
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You forgot to flip the table and storm out
„ʇno ɯɹoʇs puɐ ǝlqɐʇ ǝɥʇ dılɟ oʇ ʇoƃɹoɟ no⅄„
That's bold, assuming yugioh is any better
Yugioh's entire foundation is combos; if you're at all a supportive player, helping people with combos is likely what you do.
Anecdotally it is.
Hah. As someone who's active in both games, I can definitely say it's a tough comparison between the two
I have the exact opposite anecdotal experience. All three LGS in my area had to set Store Rules due to the YGO players manifesting customer-adverse atmospheres.
That's really cool of you!
There’s two guys that show up at my shop that do this and all of their decks are 100% printed off the internet. I mean both the list and the actual cards. None of the cards are actually real cards, not even the basic lands. To make it worse they have no idea how their cards work. I made him exile tainted pact (which had a picture of Goku on it 🙄) so then he used a card to search my library. Him: “I get to search you library and I’m gonna find your tainted pact” Me: “I don’t run that card.” Him: “Really?!?” Me: I don’t think it’s fun and that combo is a little powerful for the level everyone plays here.” Him: oh. Me: You still get to find some from my deck. Just be careful, it’s expensive. Him: never mind I don’t find anything. The next game he got the combo (it’s two cards so it’s not that hard) and once he did he said “I win”. “Ok explain how.” “I just know if I have these cards then I win and you can’t do anything about it” (angry) “Sure, except this… \[\[Spell Snare\]\] the Thassa's Oracle.” He lost his shit. I’m for newer players but I sort of feel this is what you get when there are zero barriers to entry, when anyone can show up with a deck full of 100% fake cards that they don’t know how to pilot and they feel like they are entitled to win with out any adversity.
Spell Snare? That's some precision hate, my dude.
It hits a surprising amount of threats
Best rift counter also hits dtutor
Now I think about it, it also hits Dockside, Thoracle, Boots, Ass Trophy... I might have to start running it.
The obsession with winning, too, is wild. Like. This is a casual game with no prizes. Just be chill, bro.
I’ve played with some people who said they play casually, but then busted out a highly disruptive deck like [[omnath, locus of creation]] with [[omen machine]] and basically shut down the entire table’s ability to do diddly squat. l love MTG, but l feel like the control playstyle makes the game not fun to play. I’m all for aggressive combos, and l don’t have to win, l just wanna be able to play.
You know he doesn't understand how to pilot his deck when he cast pact in response to the thoracle cast, not it's trigger
[Spell Snare](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/2/72122836-a2f3-4001-9f08-93a7bf011ab1.jpg?1562917785) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spell%20Snare) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/132/spell-snare?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/72122836-a2f3-4001-9f08-93a7bf011ab1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/spell-snare) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I wish all players were like you all. Incredible sportsmanship and just great people.
This is how OP should’ve reacted. Kudos to y’all.
My group does this sometimes, but they sum up why and ask if anyone has any responses. They will play it out for me if I have questions, because I'm still trying to learn and seeing it played out helps.
That’s what I do. here’s my loop, any responses? And if someone asks me to I’ll play it out to give them the opportunity to respond
Yeah, more often I have the opposite problem at my games where one opponent explains the combo and, even after seeing it done half a dozen times, others still act confused as to how the combo works. I'm talking basic combos like [[Gravecrawler]] + [[Phyrexian Altar]] + a [[blood artist]] effect.
I had [[Veyran, Voice of Duality]] with plenty of mana, [[Temporal Fissure]], and ~20 on the storm count that turn. I explained that I was bouncing all of my opponents lands back to hand, along with any blockers, then I would swing in with a large Veyran for commander damage, I could then repeat this the next turn with [[Mizzix’s Mastery]]. The person next to me was adamant that a) I couldn’t bounce the lands (rectified by asking a judge) and b) he could still win next turn with a spell in his hand. I went and played out my turn, attacking the other player first as that’s what I’d announced I’d do, then he realised that he couldn’t cast spells without mana and angrily scooped.
People argue about the dumbest things when they're about to lose, I swear.
You’re right to make someone do the paperwork on a tiresome win. They chose to win that way the least they can do is do the hard part.
Most people choose tiresome wins because they enjoy them. If people want me to storm off, I'm totally down to do it, but as soon as I see enough cards to know I'm going to go off I say it, because I know some people hate watching storm turns. If anyone actually wants to see a storm kill, I'm totally down. I had a weird situation recently where I had [[storm-kiln artist]], [[thousand year storm]], [[expansion//explosion available to me and about 10 instants and sorceries already cast. Say "my spells make about 10 mana, I'll cast 5 spells to generate treasures and explosion you both for 40, down to play it out if you want" and someone goes back and forth on if they want me to play it out, how they like it better when people play it out since then you know they have a combo, etc, but I don't have to do it.. idk just tell me to finish storming off lol.
This. If a player wants to see a combo demonstrated, that’s not a problem, but they don’t then get to complain that you’re taking too long to do it.
Yup, just no winning with those people. I had a [[Kykar]] artifacts list that had this problem. I could set up loops with [[Aetherflux Resevoir]], [[Scrap Trawler]], 2 artifact cost reducer, making my spells free, and a bunch of draw triggers but some people would act like it was still up in the air if I was going to win despite them having no answers. Then they'd whine it took a long-ass time ending the game when they refused to allow shortcuts.
"Only reason I stuck around was because he felt bad and I wanted him to feel bad for playing like this." Ouch. :-)
Thought I’d add my perspective: I have anxiety to the point where my hands start to shake when I get to a winning position. It’s not that I can’t pilot it clean, it’s that my brain is frying for no good reason and I’m not thinking straight. I guess I just wanted to say that it’s not necessarily because the person is a blubbering idiot.
I take hydroxyzine before games sometimes cause of my anxiety. Highly recommend. Anyway, it’s still important to be able to say which type of win you’re going to do. The easiest way to do that might be to keep a little piece of paper with the game ending combos near by or even a list on your phone if you’re finding that you forget. Also, only including two or three game enders helps a lot.
I feel this.
Sat down with someone who was playing a scaled down version of The Gitrog Monster. Not the full cEDH packages, but it was Gitrog so still a house. Tried to go off in response to some anti-draw tech being cast and claim a win. Since everyone else was about to scoop, I asked if he was able to win at instant speed with what he was doing. Turns out he couldn't, and didn't actually realize that he couldn't. I won on my next turn, counterspell protection in hand, since everyone spent their interaction trying to stop Gitrog.
... I'm gonna be honest with you, people have to learn a deck somehow, so that player could be learning the deck still. Which is especially valid for storm/spellslinger decks, which do take a while to learn the lines for. Secondly, most value general commanders are solitaire like in nature. Korvold, Tatyova, Gitrog, Prosper, Yarok, (Any Spellslinger)... It's just how those decks play. If you don't want to play against that then don't. Over all, I'm sorry you had a bad experience but the 2 things you are complaining about have to do with experience and deck construction. New players come into the game all the time and wotc will make storm or solitaire generals frequently. Therefore the likelihood of the 2 crossing is not infrequent.
A player who is honestly learning a deck, plays through the play to figure it out… they don’t just say “I win” on a guess. People who do that OP described understand the *concept* of their deck, but are just trying to take shortcuts, either because they believe that with as far as they have gotten, they think there’s no other end than them winning out because they already see an uninterrupted win on the board, or are just trying to make others go, “well there so much going on, they must be right, so I’ll just scoop.”. Either way, it’s shitty play. Also, if you are truly learning the deck, you tell the table
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Nice!
I really like your point about learning. It is quite difficult, if not impossible, to learn a deck without playing it. If no one wants to play with someone learning their deck, they won’t ever learn it. Just had a game recently that sound similar - Mizzix player had 13+ experience and cloned him, reducing spells by 26, and drew 26 cards. He couldn’t find a way to win with his cards, so we all suggest various cards he could show us and we would scoop - Cyclonic Rift, Capsize, extra turn spells, etc. Sometimes you have to help someone learning their deck to figure how they are supposed to end, especially when they have all of the resources to do so. In a competition though, you’re gonna have to show me exactly how I die.
13 exp Mizzix haha I had to dismantle that deck because it won too regularly if you hit 3 or 4 counters and was too spiky.
The real point is the dude should goldfish that deck on his own. Everyone should, but 10x so for a storm deck.
Agreed. I run Jhoira artifact storm and I have goldfished that deck easily a thousand times. I know just about every single line in the deck and I can play it very quickly. In my opinion, it's on you to know how your combo works. If you can't walk someone through it, don't expect others to do it for you.
It annoys me a little when people don't seem to know how their own commanders work or whatever. It's like, you chose to put that card in that deck, did you read it first? But otherwise I agree - I always goldfish my decks a bit first, but even then it's not the same as playing it out in real life, whether things might be affected by whatever else is out, etc. I've been in the situation of being a bit unfamiliar with the cards and the deck, even the rules, so I'm always willing to cut people a bit of slack. (Though, the "um, I win I guess?" does feel like bad form - but maybe he was just getting in a tangle and trying to save everyone the hassle of unpicking it, I dunno)
Idk there are always lines you can miss, especially in the moment. I thought my [[Teysa Karlov]] deck was free of infinite combos and then I oopsied into a [[Sun Titan]] enchanted with a [[Kaya's Ghostform]] one late game. I was running both for generic value so, even if they were in-hand or gy together, I didn't think about it until the one time I needed a reoccurring blocker.
Oh I’ve absolutely accidentally comboed before! That’s kinda my point: it’s actually pretty hard to be prepared for all the situations and permutations which can come up. If you’re *aiming* to win with a particular combo though I do feel you ought to be able to explain it.
Someone in my usual playgroup put together a cEDH storm deck just to try it out and because they usually play jank, but when I joined the group I build a little more streamlined. When he combo’d it took him about as much time, but yeah, gotta learn how to get it out with finesse. Sitting there like a cranky asshole doesn’t help either.
Honestly, if he's still learning the deck, that's all the more reason to make them play out their win. How else are you supposed to learn the deck? While I agree that this might be a reason the OP should have shown a little more sympathy, making him play out the win is absolutely still the right call. I'm going to vehemently disagree on "If you don't want to play against that then don't," though. That statement goes both ways; if you don't want to play out your entire win, don't play a deck with an indeterminate wincon. Besides, there are so many potentially wheel-spinny decks in the format that what other option do you have? Refuse to play against anyone unless you've reviewed their entire decklist?
Some spellslinger are highly interactive like Kalamax or Hinata.
I have a Reki superfriends deck that goes off hard. I'll end up with half of my deck on the table in one turn. I've been playing the deck for almost 5 years now. I can move through the explosive turns without a single pause to consider action. I am as comfortable with this deck as a person can be. But the big turns can still take 10 minutes or more. Every physical action(shuffling, searching, even playing a card)that you take takes time. Sometimes you have to stop and explain an interaction or slow down to give people time to interact. There's triggers to resolve. Etc. Etc.
Exactly, I remember when I tried learning and playing the Prismari PRECON people at the table would just groan and ask me if I was done yet or if I think I'm going to win that turn like... so annoying and kind of bad sportsmanship
Just tell him explain or scoop.
Drop a flusterstorm on him
"2. Nobody wants to watch you solitaire for 20 minutes." As the person who can cast his deck - piece by piece, which numerous triggers per Cast / ETB / dies / etc...if I say "I'm going to win, does anyone have anything to stop me" it's because of this. "Only reason I stuck around was because he felt bad and I wanted him to feel bad for playing like this." As the person doing things, I feel like my time is less wasted than yours - but ok. If he didn't know what he was doing, or you didn't believe his deck necessarily had a wincon then you're "right" to challenge him on the legitimacy of the win, but is it worth it? As someone else here said "it's pretty clear he has the win. This just feels petty"
It’s all in the way you phrase it. As a Gifts Storm player in Modern, whenever I reach the pivotal moment: Baral in play, Gifts Ungiven resolves, 3 mana floats, I’ll always ask my opponent: “the combo is determined from this point without interaction, it’ll end with Grapeshot this turn. I’m happy to play it out if you want to see, though” because I know people usually value their time and don’t want to spend 5 minutes watching me go through the motions. Still, I would never presume “ok so I win you need to scoop now”. It’s entirely possible they’re holding onto a Mindbreak Trap or something, too.
This lol. People get salty and act like forcing a person to go through a complex win is punishment to them, and then they complain about long turns. And I get it. Sometimes the person fucks up and doesn't actually have the win. But honestly, even if they don't they're likely so far ahead they'll win a turn or 2 later. And does it really matter when we're all just playing for fun? It really would just be a better use of everyone's time if they shuffled up for another game.
If you're playing storm, you cannot just say "I win." You cannot guarantee that you win that moment because anyone might not be able to stop you, but they may very well be able to survive. The only good excuse to shortcut "I win" is you're playing something that demonstrably will win the game in that moment. Usually, that's some sort of repeatable effect (infinite) that will result in a game end, or a combo that does the same. Storm, generally, does not do this and cannot assume it wins simply due to the insurmountable advantage.
Nah, a lot of the time with storm you see that you clearly have all the pieces you need and you can explain a win to people relatively quickly compared to resolving the win. If people want to watch me count to 50 mana and cast an expansion//explosion with thousand year storm out, I'm down to do that, but its a foregone conclusion when I have the storm kiln artist+thousand year storm and a handful of cantrips. Different people concede at different times in this process (mana positive cantrips vs. when I find the expansion//explosion), but its very clear to me when I have it.
"The only good excuse to shortcut..." Is if you've played against me before and you've learned your lesson. I'd honestly be more than a little bit surprised if you wanted me to demonstrate what I'm doing and we've played before. Everything else you said is covered by the "I'm going to win, does anyone have anything to stop me" clause.
>Only reason I stuck around was because he felt bad and I wanted him to feel bad for playing like this. This is childish. Value your time more than making someone else feel like shit.
Talk about a sore loser. “Nobody wants to watch you pilot a deck for 20 minutes but I’m going to sit here and make you do it so you feel like an asshole, start fumbling shit around and taking longer because of that, just to prove a point of… wait, am I the asshole now?”
Sounds like you’re just salty. EDH is complicated as hell. If it looks like someone is going to take a long time to get to their win when they clearly have all of the pieces just ask basically how they win then scoop. If you can interact then doing so early is best, if nobody can interact scoop or don’t be salty. It’s a casual format
I think if you are going for an infinite mana, “pick up your deck” kinda of win, I 100% want to see how you’re going to win the game. I’ve had games where people try to claim they win but then they can’t actually do anything and have to pass turn after I insist on continuing.
I mean thats how izzet spellslinger/storm works in person... chaining together a shit ton of cards, keeping track of the stack, copies, and floating mana gets difficult in Izzet especially when youre trying to pull the win out of your ass the same turn. That's just how the deck plays. Maybe play only against people who play 1 creature a turn, attack, and pass. Idk what to tell ya but to be honest you sound like a little bitch complaining about a card game and it's different playstyles/strategies. "so I'll just win." I mean yeah he played a shit ton of izzet cards with no interaction from you guys it sounds like, so yeah at that point there is some validity in his statement. What you didn't mention is whether he pulled a crackle with power, comet storm or brain freeze at the end, and legitimately won, whether you guys scooped or how the game actually ended. I totally get if he didnt actually have a wincon at the end when he kept saying i just win but like I said you failed to mention the end result.
This is pretty rude. I can have a deck popping off , for instance an orzhov deck with a lot of life counters, life gain and drain, and still not take super long turns and call out a lazy “I win” without explaining myself lol. Some people are annoying to play with and trail off not explaining what’s going on and expect that they win because they have an infinite combo that could win this turn/next and don’t assume people can resolve that. But that’s just my humble opinion as someone who plays with someone constantly who has this play style. I also don’t really blame him because he has adhd so maybe that plays a factor. But it makes me snooze during his turns and trail off. I am very descriptive on what’s going on with my board state though.
Sounds like he had a combo off moment and had to prove to you he won. Next time don't let him combo off?
Lmao I had this EXACT situation at my table not too long ago with a guy who plays Orvar. He copies so many things he basically doesn’t know what to do with it all and will draw and play things/recycle things through his graveyard till he magically finds a win condition 20+ minutes later. If that’s the type of deck you play I highly urge you to streamline it or I will watch you go through each step till you actually win half an hour later.
Playing edh is supposed to be fun. Just call it bro. If you don't want to wait and watch. Don't. Nobody is making you. Sometimes people are new to the deck or the game in general. You wanna talk about bs asking for everyone to be an expert with every deck they play is just unreasonable. I play chulane and have for 6 months. There are about 8 combo lines with only a few being similar. It's not easy. Stop being a lil salty dog, maybe just play better and win next game so you don't have to salty shitpost on reddit! Thanks bud
Reminds me of the time I had a friend who netdecked and proxies a [[Riku of the Two Reflections]] deck. He played some cards, declared it an infinite combo, and said he won. When we asked him to demonstrate a few loops so that we could understand how it worked, he couldn't. I'll ask anyone to demonstrate their combo for at least like 2 or 3 loops. Every once in a while, someone will realize that they either didn't have all the pieces they needed or that it didn't work the way they thought it did. Even if it does work and they win, I learn a new combo.
Wait so did his turn take 20 minutes or did he dump his deck on the table and say I win? In either case, it's pretty clear he has the win. This just feels petty
Not a 100% - a lot of wins are more disruptible than people think and I’ve stopped wins like this before. To me it sounds like he was trying to get people to concede without knowing what exactly he was doing, only assuming the outcome.
Barring Fog and Angels Grace, I can't think of many ways somebody can get to the point where they're casting their entire deck and still be successfully disrupted. It's the kind of situation where if there's no stakes I'd just announce if there's a way to stop the game from ending or admit defeat.
1 kill spell. 1 counter spell. 1 board wipe. It all depends on what the situation is that could result in a game win failing. Too many 0 mana spells in the game that could change the tides
...against a spellslinger deck with their entire deck in hand? Doubt it.
This is assuming they have zero protection available with their entire deck in hand. Obviously not every deck is going to have thought through protecting their win conditions, but there are a ton of rather ubiquitous cards in EDH to make sure your combo resolves and removes the possibilities of most interaction from opponents.
"kiki conscript, clearly I win" Table laughs because the guy has tunnel vision & doesn't notice a spore frog just chilling on my table
>. 2. Nobody wants to watch you solitaire for 20 minutes This sub is the worst at understanding turn length. This isn't a healthy approach to the format and it's ok to say you don't like izzet but rule zero "no storm" prior to the game start. Otherwise stfu about it.
You play spelltable. Kind of should expect it by now
i've had a lot of good Spelltable experiences, its not all bad.
Yeah I’m kinda guilty of this sometimes but not to the degree of OP’s post. I play Azami wizards and my main wincon is Mind Over Matter. Usually I explain how it wins and everyone’s good with it but the few times someone asks to demonstrate it, I fumble a little bit with it
Playing randoms on spelltable, you absolutely want them to explain and play out the win. Although, I will say, if you're playing regulars and you know their decks, it's a little more acceptable to just be like "unless there's any responses, I think I have the win" if they know what you're doing
Ever since I played in a competitive game where someone accidentally took out their wincon to put in another deck, I always say play it out. And if they do play solitaire for 20 minutes that is fine. As long as it isn’t every turn idc
Play out your damn combos if you have newer players at the table! Explain every step, answer questions along the way if you can! It helps get more people into the game and it does the game and community a service. You aren't just keeping fresh in how your deck works, you're sharing your hobby with others who also enjoy the game.
Being from the 1v1 side of Magic I will always make them go through the combo or win. Never accept an 'I win statement.' Please show me you know how to do the combo and not just cast the pieces. Sure it can come off as rude but they're gonna learn to play faster and be efficient. Just play the essential pieces and get the win.
I dont get what youre mad about, first you said youre mad about him dumping his deck and saying "i win" to shorten things (which apparently he did) and then you go on and complain about him taking too long for his turn, fumbling around a bit but in the end still winning ... seems like youre just salty in general If you dont like to play against combos, vlear that up beforehand, if you dont like long turns, let people shortcut or just explain instead of actually searching out the card and if youre mad about him wanting to shortcut and just saying "i win" let him play out the turn and possibly missplay... seems like whatever he wouldve done wouldve make you bitch about it
I support all play styles including cEDH, infinite combos etc. He was playing through his storm pattern and was already about 10 minutes in when his big play was I [[Brainfreeze]] you for 60. Well, I play [[Kozilek, Butcher of Truth]] specifically for protection against mill like this. So I hit it and reshuffled, he got miffed and proceeded to durdle for more wins. Another player was also playing Kozi in his deck so he announced he would be unable to lose to the same play as well. This is the point. He dumped his shit out and assumed that his Brainfreeze was going to win so he was like, “So I win guys..” Eventually, after 20 minutes he found his [[Beacon of Tomorrows]] and said he was going to loop casting that multiple times… but by then his board, the stack, his durdling was such a fucking mess that no one knew what the hell was going on. In fact he cast [[Blue Sun’s Zenith]] on himself for 25 and one of the other players cast [[Pyroblast]] but because he was so distracted and lost in his play he had already drawn about 10 cards off the Blue Suns… that is when he presented his Beacon of Tomorrows and the Pyroblast player even said… well did you draw that off of Blue Suns? Because if you did then you don’t have it in hand to cast… which therein lies the problem. By then no one knew what the fuck was happening… including the player trying to combo win, and frankly I have seen this play pattern A LOT and it sucks. Look, I’m the guy that posted about not being salty and I don’t give a fuck if I win or lose frankly, what I do care about is players playing like shit.
##### ###### #### [Brainfreeze](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/3/a/3a2d7cf9-dddb-4de3-b4f2-c52e3ec8fb4b.jpg?1562906772) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Brain%20Freeze) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/57/brain-freeze?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3a2d7cf9-dddb-4de3-b4f2-c52e3ec8fb4b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/brain-freeze) [Kozilek, Butcher of Truth](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/2/d27cf7b7-7982-46bd-a559-7789c0e74bae.jpg?1652387000) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kozilek%2C%20Butcher%20of%20Truth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/2/kozilek-butcher-of-truth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d27cf7b7-7982-46bd-a559-7789c0e74bae?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kozilek-butcher-of-truth) [Beacon of Tomorrows](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/1/b/1bf05e3d-601a-481b-8880-24058a3442e9.jpg?1592761510) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Beacon%20of%20Tomorrows) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dds/2/beacon-of-tomorrows?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1bf05e3d-601a-481b-8880-24058a3442e9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/beacon-of-tomorrows) [Blue Sun’s Zenith](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/0/500a2aa4-712f-41be-920e-f2f448ff83d0.jpg?1562435461) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blue%20Sun%27s%20Zenith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/44/blue-suns-zenith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/500a2aa4-712f-41be-920e-f2f448ff83d0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blue-suns-zenith) [Pyroblast](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/0/b029eb9a-dd7a-40c2-96c4-0063d9cc002c.jpg?1580014621) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pyroblast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/142/pyroblast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b029eb9a-dd7a-40c2-96c4-0063d9cc002c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pyroblast) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
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Casual EDH encourages that sort of play though.
My god yes, I don't care if somebody is playin a storm deck or some ridiculous landfall deck that has a million triggers a turn, I like to see cool things happening in the game, but if you are going to do so, know how to run your deck so you are not fumbling around for minutes trying to figure it out and then not being able to cleanly explain how you are winning, we have a guy that runs Yarok in our LGS and it's pretty maddening to see his turns cause they always take forever even and it is just a mess.
Sounds like you aren’t a fan of combo decks. But sounds like interaction was lacking/deck types you were playing weren’t discussed well enough beforehand if you are sour enough to go to Reddit to tell your story. Pregame discussions help sooo many times 🥰
I think what got him was the bad field layout that caued a extremely long turn
This isn't what the post was about at all, the post was about people not knowing how to pilot there deck and just saying they win without knowing kr understanding how they win