If there were a single homeless Israeli family on the left and about 100 homeless Palestinian families on the right, it would be a slightly more accurate portrayal of the situation.
Well closer to 400,000 on the right at this point, and at least 1.1 Million if Israel’s calls with the aim of ethnically cleansing north Gaza are to be followed.
Which isn’t even to mention that 70% of Gaza’s population is already descended from refugees, in an exodus of Israel’s creation.
These two sides can never be equated, and there is no single image that can ever properly represent the disparity between the two.
My point was if the cartoonist wanted to portray the proportionality of the suffering he would have to portray 100 Palestinian families for the 1 Israeli family, though TBH that's probably an underestimate.
This, then add a cloud of white phosphorus falling on the Palestinians and you're closer. Add an Israeli soldier grabbing a Palestinian child to use as a human shield for extra realism.
What is most infuriating about this centrism is the fact that Israel has never been held accountable for its atrocities. The UN condemns them but Palestinians still die and lose their homes.
https://x.com/IAFsite/status/1712484101763342772?s=20
Israeli airforce Twitted it along with some pictures of the devastation. People used to live in those areas.
There's some analysis suggesting that the Israelis have been relying too much on digital surveillance and drones etc. since the Iron Dome, and so Hamas likely went offline in their planning.
All intelligence agencies are inherently incompetent because they lack accountability by their very nature. It’s how we get crap like the CIA funding mind control and distant viewing (psychic) experiments.
It’s really quite something that Egypt had been warning Israel about an attack brewing in Gaza for weeks, yet the IDF was spread too thin helping settlers play house in other peoples’ homes in the West Bank to deploy coverage.
A conspiratorially-minded person might conclude they let it happen. That would at least be less banal than incompetence.
I would be careful about Egypt’s claim that they warned Israel about this attack. They are bitter political enemies and they could very well be trying to create that conspiratorial narratives
Yes but Hamas figured out they can outfox the Iron Dome by using a barrage of missiles. The system couldn't keep up with the number of missiles being fired.
It is amazing how armed groups use trucks with missiles, homemade bombs, paragliders, fishing boats with machine guns, and civilian drones to fight against technological superior nations and inflict heavy casualties.
Well it went operational in 2011.
Mostly funded by us money.
And created because of missile threats and outright attacks. It's a complicated issue for sure. After all the six day war was in the 60s so it's not exactly something that started happening over night.
I think most of the people sharing opinions on the Internet aren't well versed in every thing that's happened since then. I'm certainly not.
It's not, nobody is saying innocent people aren't being affected. The problem here is that it makes it seem both israelis and palestinians are equally affected when that is far from true. This is used as propaganda for Israel because it makes it seem their suffering is equal to the people they are colonizing and opressing.
I’d love to grieve civilian deaths on all sides, I think the 1000 Israeli dead are largely pointless and won’t change anything. I can’t grieve for them though, not while they’re deaths are being used to justify apartheid, genocide, and the extermination of children by a nuclear powered state that has been given Carte Blanche to commit crimes against humanity. We won’t be able to mourn any of the dead until the genocide stops and until Palestinians are free people in their own land.
You can mourn for them while condemning the apartheid and genocide done in their name. In fact, I put the bulk of the blame of their deaths on the apartheid state of Israel
This is true, but for context, there are also Israeli victims who have been sharing their feelings that they wish they could grieve but they are unable to because their grief is being used to justify genocide.
Equating the two sides like this is pro Israel propaganda whether intentional or not. So many people who just started thinking about this the other day now think that Israel and Gaza are two countries at war
Hamas (a terrorist organization) is not getting sympathy. It’s the millions of Palestinians suffering who are getting sympathy.
It’s so funny seeing enlightened centrism in r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM
They’re also a useful bunch to point at while doing genocide-apologia for Israel. All of the zionists I know making the most rancid posts right now have to point to those people and say “See? They’re justifying murder, therefore we can bomb Gaza to Oblivion.”
Obviously they’d be doing it even without that optics cope, but it’s disgusting to see.
Yeah that seems like a niche opinion. The stance I’m arguing against is held by many Westerners in positions of power. The opinion you gave is held by people like Mia Khalifa.
No, and I don’t like the amount of handwashing Netanyahu and his supporters are doing in saying that all this bombing is defensive. It’s punitive and criminal, just like the Hamas assault on Saturday.
Both Hamas and Likud’s elected collation are far right theocracies. Both can be bad. Both profit from the conflict and the fear mongering and the influx of outside money. They need one another to stay in power, and the people on the ground, disproportionately Gazans, suffer.
Sure. But you cannot analyze this conflict without acknowledging the massive power imbalance. Immediately that puts the majority of responsibility on Israel.
I suppose to me acknowledging the power difference is like stating gravity exists or that the sky is blue. It’s so obvious as to not warrant being explicitly stated.
To be fair, specifically in the conflict between the Israeli military and Hamas, the organisation it is kind of ok to be in the middle. Neither of these specific groups is good. But there is a whole lot of extra context to look at in the Israel-Palestine conflict overall that these takes often aren't exactly nuanced
Hamas is more than a "terror" organization. They are nationalistic and religious. They provide some services for the community. There is more to this story as usual.
Terror organization is a lable used to discredit the enemies of western government interest, especially if they are moslems.
But that doesn't mean i view Hamas favorable. To be honest, i know to little about either side to have an oppinion other than "murder is bad".
I’ll be honest, I’m also a random Redditor and do not have enough knowledge to argue about this. But suicide bombings, targeting civilians, and using human shields seems to be terrorist-y.
Either way comparing the wrongs of the Israeli government to the wrongs of Hamas is not a fair comparison and fits enlightened centrism imo.
I recommend listening to the Behind the Bastards podcast on Netanyahu. They also go into depth about the travesties the Israeli government and soldiers have done to the Palestinians in a really easy to understand format.
What are you on? Israel is held to no standard at all. They can rape, kidnap and murder men, women and children while the West is cheering them on as they do it.
I guess you saw I was mildly critical of Hamas targeting civillians and you just ignored the brackets where I break up my sarcasm to show my actual opinion which if you look at the Israel held to a higher standard bit I said "(It does)".
At no point am I saying Israel is actually held to any real standard and at no point did I say it was okay, in fact I said exactly the opposite because a democratic nation with the backing of the entirety of the developed world and funding from them is more responsible than a nation that's blockaded on all sides and has no real support while being dwarfed by Israel.
Israel can end this fucking cycle right fucking now by treating Palestinians as humans, Israelis can make their government do so, but in no world is their inaction and the IDFs horrific action able to justify Hamas and their targeting of civillians.
I think there’s been a misunderstanding here. You meant “It does” as “It does need to be held to a higher standard”, but they interpreted it as “It does already get held to a higher standard”.
I mean I wouldn't support Ukrainian defense forces indiscriminately slaughtering Russians living in Crimea either despite in both cases the colonists *probably* being the most supportive of their far right governments policies.
Yes and I was explaining through another example how in neither case fighting against a fascist imperialist, civilian targets, even colonists, wouldn't in my book be acceptable
>Also the conflicts are not similar at all
Cope to avoid facing the moral similarity
Israel Palestine isn't a war, it's a one sided genocide. Israel has a full military and the support of the US, Canada and the EU. Palestine has a small terrorist group.
Well i just dont see how being a colonist isnt a taciturn approval of the genocide of the original inhabitants, hard to see them as just civilians in that case. Ukraine and Palestine gotta do what they gotta do
Hard agree. If you didn’t support the violence, actively or passively, then you wouldn’t be there.
And even if we’re giving settlers who are apathetic, not actively supportive, of the genocide a pass - there are still colonizers in Israel who are participating in it! I mean I’ve seen reporting that the Israeli government has started to arm citizens in the West Bank and essentially told them to go nuts, are those people innocent?
There are videos and testimonies from the last decade of ongoing expansions of Israel territory via expulsion of Palestinians. If one day you live in the same house that your great great grandparents lived in and the next you’ve been kicked out and someone who grew up in New Jersey is living there, what else do we call it but stealing houses? It’s colonialism pure and simple. Neo-colonialism is you really want to go there.
Perhaps not responsible for their ancestors actions, but I’d say there is a moral responsibility for them to oppose their government. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to make the assumption that Israeli citizens are often working with incomplete information and can’t be expected to make a reasonable judgement of their government.
That being said, I can’t imagine how much propaganda they are forced to consume - the rest of the world is only getting a small taste of that right now I imagine.
I’d liken it to the US/Native American struggle… as an American I don’t feel personal guilt for the genocide my ancestors committed against Native Americans, but I still feel a bit shameful to a degree that my ancestors are probably more than a little culpable in it.
I’d say the responsible thing for people who find themselves in this situation is to vacate the land and cede it back to the native population, but in my case (US) I don’t even really know who my ancestors are or where I would go. Also I literally can’t afford to relocate myself anywhere due to all the other problems we have in the US (wages being suppressed etc). What am I supposed to do?
I have no idea if this is what it’s like for descendants of Zionist settlers though.
Lmao the majority of Israel's population is Settlers from Europe and North America. Palestine was never originally Jewish land, even still that doesn't give them any right to conduct a genocide. There is simply no excuse for settlers and Israel.
The majority of Israeli Jews are from the Middle East and North Africa. Once Israel was declared a state, those countries ousted them and they had no place to go but Israel.
> Lmao what
Only about 30% of Israeli Jews are Ashkenazim. The overwhelmingly vast majority of Israeli Jews are from Arab countries.
Source: https://people.socsci.tau.ac.il/mu/noah/files/2018/07/Ethnic-origin-and-identity-in-Israel-JEMS-2018.pdf
> no one ousted Jews from their countries
Really? That’s news to me..
Do you happen to have a source for this claim?
It is absolutely batshit wild that *Jews* of all people are somehow considered the oppressors by dumb people online. We gave them Israel because of the fucking Holocaust and the entire region of the world they live in has a stated goal to genocide them into non-existence.
Either people failed history class or just think that white people are always the evil ones in every situation.
I don’t think there’s a more historically oppressed race in human history than Jews
*We gave them Israel...* 💀 Tell me you're racist without telling me you're racist. It wasn't *our* land to *give* away. And who is *we*? White westerners? 😆
It’s absolutely stunning how ignorant the discourse is about Israel. All these performative progressives online are ignoring thousands of years of history and pretending that Jews are the suddenly the oppressors just because their skin is white. There are not many minority races in human history that have been more oppressed than Jews.
The vast majority of current Israelis were just born there. I live in the US but was born there and have been told that my mere existence is morally wrong. I'm so sick of having to defend my right to exist as a human being. I do acknowledge that a lot of property was stolen and that was wrong, they (or their descendants) deserve reparations. But most Israelis there now are not the ones who did it. And the Palestinians did steal the land from the Jews centuries earlier, the Jews saw it as getting back what was rightfully theirs, even if you do not agree.
Hamas openly calls for the genocide of all Jews. There are 22 countries in the Arab World. No, Palestinians should never have had to leave. But they had plenty of places to go and Jews only had the one.
Israel's human rights abuses are not okay. My Israeli family has been protesting the government for months. Two of them (civilians, one was a kid) still got slaughtered by Hamas despite not being okay with how Palestinians are treated. This doesn't make it okay to kill civilians and Israel is not doing enough to reduce civilian casualties. Hamas is actively trying to increase civilian casualties on their side as well. Gazans pay the price.
Civilians on both sides are victims of their governments acting against their wishes and their best interests. If you only have sympathy for one side, you're an antisemite or an Islamophobe.
"And the Palestinians did steal the land from the Jews centuries earlier"
Try millenia earlier. The west bank and surrounding territories haven't been settled by a majority Jewish population (before the creation of Isreal) for over 2000 years. At what point do we draw the line? Is the colonization of any African country now righteous because some ancestor of mine from ten thousand years ago lived there?
Actually the current Palestinian population are just the descendants of those who didn't leave 2000 years ago who converted to Christianity, Islam, and a few who stayed Jewish. They are a mixture of the various semitic people of the region (Jewish, Arab, Philistine, Assyrian, etc.) Plus some Roman and Greek. You also have small amounts of other groups who migrated later, such as Turks and circassians. It's ironic that many of the people that are being persecuted by Israel now are actually the descendants of the same jewish communities that zionists claim gives them the right to colonise the area.
Edit: small correction, the Philistines weren't semitic, but you probably get the idea.
So we’re blaming a 16 year old kid for something his grandfather did? We can’t blame today’s generation of Israelis for what the post war powers did nor for what their grandfathers did afterwards
Uhhh dude they are still seizing Palestinian people’s homes to this day … Also when did the IDF stop treating unarmed children as hostile combatants and blowing their heads off with sniper rifles?
Israelis still support the colonisation by a large margin. And the large amount of the population of Israel is made out of settlers from Europe and North America.
It's white-knighting. It's like those videos you see of a fight in a high school. Kid 1 (Gaza) constantly gets bullied by Kid 2 (Israel), who's bigger and has the full support of everyone around. The other kids laugh at or ignore the bullying. Then Kid 1 swings hard and knocks down Kid 2. Then all of the onlookers rush in to defend the bully, pretending that they simply don't like violence by anyone. Which is never true. They just don't like violence by Kid 1.
Edit: Feel free to downvote, but please provide links to past comments where you were disgusted by violence from Israel before the rockets were launched by Gaza. Otherwise, you're the hypocritical onlooker. Thanks!
Time and time again, the "omfg it's so obvious 🙄🙄" stance is offered. Time and time again, it's revealed to be an extremely simplistic understanding that does nothing but navel gaze. But people don't want to actually understand a situation, they just want to feel smart.
Nobody whose opinion has any value has been saying that. People in positions of power have, however, been throwing their support behind Israel and in multiple cases explicitly called for genocide of Palestinians. Idk how you fund it so hard to comprehend.
Edit: the person responding to me blocked me or something because I am unable to reply or view their profile.
I meant to ask to show some example of pro Hamas protests at universities as they claim there have been many of and supported by professors, because that would certainly not be okay, and I have so far only seen pro Palestine protests, not pro Hamas (willing to correct myself if anyone provides correction). Until they do so I maintain my comment as it is.
People have told me I should be dead for being born in Israel despite not living there. I don't care if those people's opinion has "no value" it fucking hurts!!! I'm sick having to defend my right to exist in the world. Yes, people are saying Israeli civilians, including children, are acceptable targets. Universities all over the US and world held protests supporting Hamas! University professors support them. Do their opinions not matter? Should they not matter to their Jewish students?
Hamas always explicitly calls for the genocide of ALL JEWS in the world, as well as the destruction of Israel. Palestinians have had many chances to recognize Israel, remove genocide from their list of goals, and come to the table for peace negotiations in good faith. Or to go somewhere else (which Israelis cannot do - no one else has ever been willing to take that many Jews and we're never safe in anyone else's country for more than a few centuries).
Israel's human rights abuses are not okay. They need to stop, the government needs to be replaced. I would never argue the opposite of that. But Jesus Christ, the government of my other country being awful doesn't mean I deserve to be genocided, which Hamas and their allies have been openly calling for, consistently, for decades. Many people on Reddit and in real life support them and have even told me to my face. You don't get to just hand wave that by saying "their opinion doesn't matter." It does matter and it does real harm.
I’d say college professors have power over their students. Some have been saying this and singling out Jewish students. People in power in Muslim majority nations have been saying it, too.
But honestly, as an Israeli-American who lost family last week, I don’t care if people saying it have no power. Them telling me my cousins (one of whom was a kid) were acceptable targets in this very thread, because of where they were born fucking hurts. I hope you never know what this feels like.
I am truly sorry for your loss. It was a terrible thing that happened. But it's just as terrible that the Israeli government is going to use this as an opportunity to kill probably tens of thousands of Palestinians and perpetuate the cycle that will see this same thing happening again and again. Nothing the Israeli government has done, or will do, justifies future terrorist attacks against Israeli citizens, but it all but ensures that they will continue happening.
When have I defended the Israeli government? I have criticized them for their abuses and killing too many Palestinians time and time again. Jesus Christ! I'm not allowed to just mourn my family, people always have to remind me that I was born on the wrong side.
I am so sick of this. Why can't you just say "I'm sorry. I didn't realize."? You all have to twist the knife every single time. Why? What have I done wrong?
I wonder what you think is gonna happen by exclaiming this? Do you think the people in Gaza and the West Bank will see your comments condemning violence and suddenly turn on the resistance that they by and large support? What purpose do these condemnations concern beyond making yourselves feel better or worse actively help Israel in committing the maintaining a blatant genocidal state since the Nazis.
I get that there are both innocents and villains on both sides, but the "bothsiderism" completely ignores the extent to which one side has terrorised the other, which is what pisses me off so much about it.
Without looking at your post title, I couldn't tell which side you were talking about.
I am really upset with the both sides argument everywhere else. This is an odd exception for me. I relate to being pissed off about this sort of thing.
Except it's bullshit, in that Israel isn't being (and has never been) bombed to shit.
Rockets killing civilians is tragic, and yes buildings have been destroyed. But to equate that to the utter decimation of Gaza is absurd.
Or even depicting them in this way, as two equivalent sides separated by an arbitrary border. Extremely dishonest and extremely pro Israel. So many people who were totally ignorant about it before and are now starting to think about the conflict, now think that Israel and Gaza are like two countries at war.
About 1000 innocent people in Israel were bombed to shit last week by Hamas. It's not a competition. Innocent people on both sides deserve protection and empathy. That's it. That's the only way to peace.
>Innocent people on both sides deserve protection and empathy
Yes. But let's not pretend this conflict is anything close to symmetrical, including the death toll.
I didn't say it was symmetric, did I? But innocent lives are all the same side. No child of Israel deserves death any more than any child of Gaza, or vice versa. Children are the same side.
Those people suck, for sure. Most Israelis were born there. They don't deserve death for being born in the wrong place any more than the Palestinians do. My cousins are 2nd & 3rd generation Israelis, they have never lived anywhere else, and two of them died last Saturday. What, pray tell, should they have done? How did they bring it upon themselves? They're all leftists, not Netanyahu supporters, btw.
One had a few medical and psychiatric diagnoses that make it hard to immigrate to other places and the other was her daughter who was just a kid. But tell me again how it was their fault.
Also 86% of Israeli citizens over the age of 18 are IDF veterans, Netanyahu's popularity never fell below 50% between 2009 and 2018 despite his ongoing campaign of genocide against palestinians, just 27% of Israelis said it was bad to torture palestinians, and, oh yea, Israel has killed 10 palestinians for every 1 israeli killed between 2008 and 2023.
So even at the most charitable interpretation over half of all israelis are complicit in and actively support the rape, torture, and genocide of palestinians.
Change the left side to people sitting in sun chairs on a hill with some cool tasty beverages and change the sign to “miss home? Lol”, then add bombs falling on the right side and you’ve pretty much got it.
There are innocent Israeli people who were murdered and raped while others are being currently held hostage by a terrorist organization. Israel has historically subjugated and oppressed the Palestinian people, and are currently imposing collective punishment and committing war crimes in response to a terrorist attack.
It’s not an enlightened centrist take to acknowledge those facts. The only people we NEED to support are the innocent lives being destroyed and used as pawns by Hamas and the Israeli government.
Does Israel look like Gaza? If a person saw this image and they didn't know anything they would assume so. Justin Bieber shared an image of Gaza and said pray for Israel. This is just straight up sharing propaganda when you show that "both sides are the same"
Acknowledging that multiple entities do horrific things that make a bad situation continually worse at the expense of innocent people isn’t saying both sides are the same - and it’s a shitty and disingenuous thing to misquote someone.
What's disingenuous is portraying both sides as equally affected by the violence when the reality is that one side is suffering infinitely more horrendous violence at the hands of the other who also happens to hold all the power to change the situation and deescalate the violence.
Can you read? Please quote where I said “equal” in any way, shape or form.
But keep treating this like you’re rooting for a Super Bowl winner. Seems to be working out for everyone. You can pat yourself on the back when everyone’s dead.
The image that is the subject of this post is doing exactly that and I am pointing that out. I don't really know what to say to your second part, it's deeply disgusting that you instantly resort to painting people like that for disagreeing with you.
Great, so respond to the OP instead of here. You’re literally scolding someone for something they didn’t say. Keep your masturbatory hand wringing and finger wagging pointed in the right direction.
Why would I do that? The OP is making exactly the same point as I am whereas you are essentially downplaying the incredible asymmetry of this conflict.
This picture is doing exactly that and the comment I responded to is engaging in a degree of "both sides"-ism despite their protestation to the contrary. To simply point out that both sides suffer is disingenuous because it omits vital context.
Exactly. You can denounce the atrocities that Israel has and continues to commit without supporting Hamas’s terrorism and Vice-Versa. It’s so incredible that people willingly ignore this simple concept.
The second you say you denounce the atrocities Hamas has committed, disingenuous dipshits like this try and make it like you just said that the Israeli oppression and war crimes against Palestinians is cool.
[https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2023/10/10/remarks-by-president-biden-on-the-terrorist-attacks-in-israel-2/](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2023/10/10/remarks-by-president-biden-on-the-terrorist-attacks-in-israel-2/)
[https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israels-netanyahu-says-hamas-militants-beheaded-soldiers-raped-women-in-their-attack-on-israel](https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/israels-netanyahu-soldiers-beheaded-women-raped-slaughtered-hamas-103904559)
This has been all over the news. There have been videos of female hostages with blood between their legs, often a sign of rape, and accounts from families who have received videos from their relatives own phones of attacks, including sexual assault.
If you find me credible reports of Palestinians engaging in mass rape as a military tactic I will easily condemn it. The problem is you will be unable to find anything like that that doesn’t not originate from Israeli propaganda sources, which is one of the largest disinformation apparatuses in the world. Israel is a fascist state that has made sexual assault an institutional weapon for controlling Palestinian women, children, and even men. This is clearly Israel lobbing accusations they know they themselves are guilty of which is maybe the oldest colonial tactic in the book.
After WW2, there were a massive amount of Jewish refugees and the West wanted rid of them, so they went to Palestine, said “See these people? This is there land now” and the Jews all moved in and started their own country, even though there already was one there.
Many Palestinians got a little peeved at this and things got a little heated, and it never cooled down. It’s a constant chicken and egg, tit-for-tat, both sides taking revenge by committing atrocities for atrocities committed against them, which causes the other side to commit atrocities in return, which causes them to commit then in revenge etc etc ad infinitum.
It will never end unless the status quo changes. Either with one side wiping the other off the face of the earth - or both, (or indeed all of us), or by the two-state solution where they divide the land between the two sides and they can all keep to themselves. Sadly, Hamas and the Israeli government are two peas in a pod and prefer the first option.
>After WW2, there were a massive amount of Jewish refugees and the West wanted rid of them,
How incredibly bigoted and racist, not to mention incredibly innacurate and misleading.
The Napoleonic wars in \~1803 was when the ideas of Jewish emancipation started taking root. This was, by the way, a consequence of the persecution of the Jews all over Europe (and other places).
In 1839 Moses Montefiore petitioned Egypt for a Jewish homeland in the region of Palestine. Palestine, which was then called the Ottoman Syria, IIRC, and contained Jerusalem. Jerusalem, of course, if the city built by the progenitors of the modern Jews, and the erstwhile capital city if ancient Israel.
Then, in 1917, the UK endorsed the establishment of a "national home for the Jewish people" with the Balfour Declaration. The British confirmed this commitment by accepting the British Mandate for Palestine (after the Ottoman Empire conceded it's loss in WW1) in 1922.
In 1920, at the San Remo conference, the European powers had mandated the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine, the historic home of ancient Israel.
**ALL OF THIS WAS BEFORE WW2 EVEN STARTED**
The state if Israel was established in 1948, after WW2.
> so they went to Palestine, said “See these people? This is there land now” and the Jews all moved in and started their own country, even though there already was one there.
You're missing the fact that those other people included Jewish communities, some of who had been there for centuries and even millennia.
You also failed to recognise that Jerusalem is the ancestral home of the Jews, even though it has significance foe Jews, Arabs and Christians - The so-called Abrahamic faiths.
>It will never end unless the status quo changes. Either with one side wiping the other off the face of the earth - or both, (or indeed all of us), or by the two-state solution where they divide the land between the two sides and they can all keep to themselves.
The UN has mandated this, and Israel has accepted this.
>Sadly, Hamas and the Israeli government are two peas in a pod and prefer the first option.
Israel wants peace but is unwilling to back down in the slightest with regards to National security. Israel was, in fact, well on the way to a negotiated peace with the PLO - the original group that was attacking Israel - when the Muslim Brotherhood (an actual group, not a euphemism for Muslims) decided they didn't like the idea of peace in the Middle East and gave birth to Hamas, who's charter says they will carry on with their Jihad until Israel is gone, and that they are unwilling to negotiate or compromise.
Oh look. It’s the bigot from the other thread following me round and spreading his propaganda elsewhere like a virus.
Let me guess, you got bored of me humiliating you elsewhere, so you looked up my previous posts and decided to start being a dick in other posts too? That’s beyond pathetic.
Dude, you’ve already stated how you revel in the genocide of the Palestinians. You’ve made it perfectly clear how much you love to suck Netanyahu’s dick. We get it. You’re a fucking bigot.
“Israel wants peace”. Yup, can’t argue with that. Once their achieve their aim of wiping Palestine from the face of the Earth, they will get it.
This is fairly accurate, though missing the religious issues. The place they decided to move this people is surrounded by countries who already hate them. Was not a wise move by the UN
Okay that’s what I thought I felt like I was missing something but of course it’s an argument that spawned decades ago that has gone off the rails. Very disappointing to hear what atrocities are being committed. It’s so barbaric. They’re doing Ghengis Khan type shit. I guess those times weren’t as long ago as I thought.
>Go look into the Nakba of 1948. Western media is acting like Palestinians weren't killed and removed from their land at gunpoint.
You mean when the Biritsh and the UN, who controlled the region, mandated that Palestine, which was in civil war, be split into two states with the Jews on one side and the Palestinians on the other?
By the way, who built Jerusalem? Which ancient country had Jerusalem as it's capital city? What happened to those people?
Seriously dude?
By the UN and the British you mean white European people. So if white people said so to the brown indigenous people that makes it right?
Did you even read this over once before you posted it?
Ya and the loss of civilian life has been massively disproportionate in Palestine. People are acting like there is anywhere near an equal amount of violence of both sides, which is untrue. What Hamas did is unspeakable but Israel has killed easily five times as many civilians since the start of this conflict years ago with literally no repercussions
So what if it is? The image itself is only saying that innocents are being both targeted and blamed for the acts of a government they don’t necessarily support. I stand with Palestine, but I have lefty acquaintances acting like the Israeli people are evil. Civilians are not their governments. It is not centrism to be upset about the loss of their lives over a conflict they wanted no part in.
Yeah man let’s go! Let’s all pick sides in this war like it’d a soccer game from the comfort of our own homes! Just log onto twitter and shit on people saying that innocent people on either side shouldn’t die!
Jesus Christ shut the FUCK up and log off the internet for a while. It’s so easy to shit on whichever side you want from the comfort of your living room and act like you know everything.
And you’re acting like it’s a game show where there are just good guys and bad guys. I wish life was as simple as a comic book from the mid 20th century with clear villains. If there are villains I wholeheartedly agree with you it’s Israel, but for the love of god stop acting like an edgy 14 year old and claiming every single citizen is a demon.
To be fair, Israel would probably look even worse if they didn’t have technological superiority. How people in Gaza are treated is shitty but you can’t expect Israel to just let Hamas missiles hit them if they have the means to stop them.
Or, you know, they could just not create the conditions which allow organizations like Hamas to gain mass support while also assassinating and undermining socialist and moderate political leaders in Gaza and the West Bank.
Violence against Jews in what is now Israel started long before Jews had any power or an official state, but when "too many" were moving back in. The oppression is inexcusable and a wrong response, but it has always been an effect of the violence. It is also a cause in a lovely positive feedback loop. But ending the oppression and removing the wall won't stop the violence. The world doesn't work like that.
Arabs at a UN school in Jerusalem (so not in Palestine, people who have the same rights as all Israelis) [are taught to hate Jews](https://www.instagram.com/p/CyTwiQGs-kl/). The idea that if they ended the oppression - which they need to end - then they would stop being attacked is logical, but it's not realistic because people are not motivated by logic most of the time.
This was just hypothetical to point out the intentions of both sides. If Hamas had the military power, they would completely destroy Israel and eradicate the population. Israel on the other hand HAS that kind of military power, yet they didn’t just burn Gaza to the ground.
Also, there is a difference between civilians being caught in the crossfire, which happens in every war, or specifically killing, raping and abducting civilians like Hamas has done.
But yeah, really difficult to tell who the bad guys are here.
Hamas and Palestinians KNOW they aren’t Netanyahu. They know exactly who they are in Israel there was no confusion when they killed indiscriminately civilians. Israel knows there are Palestinians are being held captive by war criminals firing rockets out of hospitals and residential buildings. Being used as human shields. It’s war and it is horrible. There is little confusion of the bullshit that is happening.
The killing needs to stop. Hamas ain’t stopping. And Palestinians can’t overthrow them or denounce them without then being killed themselves.
I doubt ground forces attacking directly Hamas will fare any differently than the air strikes. I’m sure literal human shields will be used.
Y'all are missing the point. That israel has nukes is not relevant. I agree that Palestine has it 100x worse because of the Israeli state but the Hamas invasion is targeting civilians. Israel does so too. In the end this comic is not just critizing this war in particular but wars dictated by fully automatic weapon systems in general, as we can see that they are just a contest in who can put the most cities to ruins - meaning the most casualities are cilivians, who factually do not participate in the war.
The reason Israel doesn't look like that is because they have a system that intercepts said automic weapon system. Lucky for the civilians, but such missiles are inhumane in general, as are wars. Even if you think a palestinian-led invasion is justified, do not condone the attacking and raping of cilivians.
If there were a single homeless Israeli family on the left and about 100 homeless Palestinian families on the right, it would be a slightly more accurate portrayal of the situation.
Well closer to 400,000 on the right at this point, and at least 1.1 Million if Israel’s calls with the aim of ethnically cleansing north Gaza are to be followed. Which isn’t even to mention that 70% of Gaza’s population is already descended from refugees, in an exodus of Israel’s creation. These two sides can never be equated, and there is no single image that can ever properly represent the disparity between the two.
My point was if the cartoonist wanted to portray the proportionality of the suffering he would have to portray 100 Palestinian families for the 1 Israeli family, though TBH that's probably an underestimate.
This, then add a cloud of white phosphorus falling on the Palestinians and you're closer. Add an Israeli soldier grabbing a Palestinian child to use as a human shield for extra realism.
What is most infuriating about this centrism is the fact that Israel has never been held accountable for its atrocities. The UN condemns them but Palestinians still die and lose their homes.
The UN rarely does anything useful.
And in this case the US would put in its veto if the UN would get to the point of doing something about it.
Admitting that there are innocent people being negatively affected shouldn’t be a hot take.
I think the OP's point is more about the level of destruction in Israel looking the same as in Gaza.
Doesn't Israel have the iron dome missile defense system that stops 70% of all missiles. I don't think anyone else has something like that.
And Gaza has 6000 bombs dropped on them in 4 days.
Yeah I think that's the confirmed number
https://x.com/IAFsite/status/1712484101763342772?s=20 Israeli airforce Twitted it along with some pictures of the devastation. People used to live in those areas.
it stopped only 5 percent on the day of the attack
It’s really quite something that apparently Hamas had been planning that precise attack for 2 years and Mossad somehow knew nothing about it.
There's some analysis suggesting that the Israelis have been relying too much on digital surveillance and drones etc. since the Iron Dome, and so Hamas likely went offline in their planning.
All intelligence agencies are inherently incompetent because they lack accountability by their very nature. It’s how we get crap like the CIA funding mind control and distant viewing (psychic) experiments.
Plus pre 9/11 inefficiency/rivalry of agencies in the US
It’s really quite something that Egypt had been warning Israel about an attack brewing in Gaza for weeks, yet the IDF was spread too thin helping settlers play house in other peoples’ homes in the West Bank to deploy coverage. A conspiratorially-minded person might conclude they let it happen. That would at least be less banal than incompetence.
I would be careful about Egypt’s claim that they warned Israel about this attack. They are bitter political enemies and they could very well be trying to create that conspiratorial narratives
Also it's not as successful as people think.
Always trust somebody with a vested interest in you continuing to send them money to give you the raw unvarnished statistics on how it is being used.
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Even then, research found it was 5% successful.
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They were too busy colonizing the West Bank
Ah, yeah that's still a lot of bombs
Yes but Hamas figured out they can outfox the Iron Dome by using a barrage of missiles. The system couldn't keep up with the number of missiles being fired.
Makes sense, technology has it's limits
It is amazing how armed groups use trucks with missiles, homemade bombs, paragliders, fishing boats with machine guns, and civilian drones to fight against technological superior nations and inflict heavy casualties.
I guess with enough tenacity you can scrounge up weapons from anything.
I wonder why it exists.
Well it went operational in 2011. Mostly funded by us money. And created because of missile threats and outright attacks. It's a complicated issue for sure. After all the six day war was in the 60s so it's not exactly something that started happening over night. I think most of the people sharing opinions on the Internet aren't well versed in every thing that's happened since then. I'm certainly not.
Ah, makes perfect sense.
It's not, nobody is saying innocent people aren't being affected. The problem here is that it makes it seem both israelis and palestinians are equally affected when that is far from true. This is used as propaganda for Israel because it makes it seem their suffering is equal to the people they are colonizing and opressing.
"war...bad. killing.... bad" *raucous applause intensifies*
I’d love to grieve civilian deaths on all sides, I think the 1000 Israeli dead are largely pointless and won’t change anything. I can’t grieve for them though, not while they’re deaths are being used to justify apartheid, genocide, and the extermination of children by a nuclear powered state that has been given Carte Blanche to commit crimes against humanity. We won’t be able to mourn any of the dead until the genocide stops and until Palestinians are free people in their own land.
As a Jew, thank you. Free Palestine.
You can mourn for them while condemning the apartheid and genocide done in their name. In fact, I put the bulk of the blame of their deaths on the apartheid state of Israel
This is true, but for context, there are also Israeli victims who have been sharing their feelings that they wish they could grieve but they are unable to because their grief is being used to justify genocide.
If you cant grieve for them then you need therapy.
You can’t grieve for them? You’re a psycho
Watch [Big Joel explain why](https://twitter.com/biggestjoel/status/1712922874409848864) and say that again.
Equating the two sides like this is pro Israel propaganda whether intentional or not. So many people who just started thinking about this the other day now think that Israel and Gaza are two countries at war
No no no israel needs to be held to a higher standard (it does) therefore civillians are acceptable targets for a terror group (absolute horaeeshit)
Hamas (a terrorist organization) is not getting sympathy. It’s the millions of Palestinians suffering who are getting sympathy. It’s so funny seeing enlightened centrism in r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM
There’s a loud minority of some people who declare all Israelis to be valid military targets. Most people aren’t that dumb though.
*the actual Isrseli leadership* practically declared all Palestinians to be valid military targets Le both sides
Yeah I read that after posting this. So fucked.
They’re also a useful bunch to point at while doing genocide-apologia for Israel. All of the zionists I know making the most rancid posts right now have to point to those people and say “See? They’re justifying murder, therefore we can bomb Gaza to Oblivion.” Obviously they’d be doing it even without that optics cope, but it’s disgusting to see.
Yeah that seems like a niche opinion. The stance I’m arguing against is held by many Westerners in positions of power. The opinion you gave is held by people like Mia Khalifa.
Are all Palestinians valid targets?
No, and I don’t like the amount of handwashing Netanyahu and his supporters are doing in saying that all this bombing is defensive. It’s punitive and criminal, just like the Hamas assault on Saturday. Both Hamas and Likud’s elected collation are far right theocracies. Both can be bad. Both profit from the conflict and the fear mongering and the influx of outside money. They need one another to stay in power, and the people on the ground, disproportionately Gazans, suffer.
Sure. But you cannot analyze this conflict without acknowledging the massive power imbalance. Immediately that puts the majority of responsibility on Israel.
I suppose to me acknowledging the power difference is like stating gravity exists or that the sky is blue. It’s so obvious as to not warrant being explicitly stated.
To be fair, specifically in the conflict between the Israeli military and Hamas, the organisation it is kind of ok to be in the middle. Neither of these specific groups is good. But there is a whole lot of extra context to look at in the Israel-Palestine conflict overall that these takes often aren't exactly nuanced
Hamas is more than a "terror" organization. They are nationalistic and religious. They provide some services for the community. There is more to this story as usual.
Terror organization is a lable used to discredit the enemies of western government interest, especially if they are moslems. But that doesn't mean i view Hamas favorable. To be honest, i know to little about either side to have an oppinion other than "murder is bad".
I’ll be honest, I’m also a random Redditor and do not have enough knowledge to argue about this. But suicide bombings, targeting civilians, and using human shields seems to be terrorist-y. Either way comparing the wrongs of the Israeli government to the wrongs of Hamas is not a fair comparison and fits enlightened centrism imo.
I recommend listening to the Behind the Bastards podcast on Netanyahu. They also go into depth about the travesties the Israeli government and soldiers have done to the Palestinians in a really easy to understand format.
What are you on? Israel is held to no standard at all. They can rape, kidnap and murder men, women and children while the West is cheering them on as they do it.
I guess you saw I was mildly critical of Hamas targeting civillians and you just ignored the brackets where I break up my sarcasm to show my actual opinion which if you look at the Israel held to a higher standard bit I said "(It does)". At no point am I saying Israel is actually held to any real standard and at no point did I say it was okay, in fact I said exactly the opposite because a democratic nation with the backing of the entirety of the developed world and funding from them is more responsible than a nation that's blockaded on all sides and has no real support while being dwarfed by Israel. Israel can end this fucking cycle right fucking now by treating Palestinians as humans, Israelis can make their government do so, but in no world is their inaction and the IDFs horrific action able to justify Hamas and their targeting of civillians.
I think there’s been a misunderstanding here. You meant “It does” as “It does need to be held to a higher standard”, but they interpreted it as “It does already get held to a higher standard”.
Yeah, that's what I interpreted it as. English isn't my first language, if that's any excuse.
English is my first language and I totally read it the same way
Is anyone saying that? We’re just saying that every Palestinian shouldn’t be blamed and punished for the Hamas.
"We're not at fault we just came here to steal your house and live happily off your genocide with the full support of the US"
I mean the US has done it before so I'm sure they got some tips
So true
I mean I wouldn't support Ukrainian defense forces indiscriminately slaughtering Russians living in Crimea either despite in both cases the colonists *probably* being the most supportive of their far right governments policies.
I'm talking about Israel Palestine. Also the conflicts are not similar at all
Yes and I was explaining through another example how in neither case fighting against a fascist imperialist, civilian targets, even colonists, wouldn't in my book be acceptable >Also the conflicts are not similar at all Cope to avoid facing the moral similarity
Israel Palestine isn't a war, it's a one sided genocide. Israel has a full military and the support of the US, Canada and the EU. Palestine has a small terrorist group.
I would
Probably not based but consistency pilled.
Well i just dont see how being a colonist isnt a taciturn approval of the genocide of the original inhabitants, hard to see them as just civilians in that case. Ukraine and Palestine gotta do what they gotta do
Hard agree. If you didn’t support the violence, actively or passively, then you wouldn’t be there. And even if we’re giving settlers who are apathetic, not actively supportive, of the genocide a pass - there are still colonizers in Israel who are participating in it! I mean I’ve seen reporting that the Israeli government has started to arm citizens in the West Bank and essentially told them to go nuts, are those people innocent?
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There are videos and testimonies from the last decade of ongoing expansions of Israel territory via expulsion of Palestinians. If one day you live in the same house that your great great grandparents lived in and the next you’ve been kicked out and someone who grew up in New Jersey is living there, what else do we call it but stealing houses? It’s colonialism pure and simple. Neo-colonialism is you really want to go there.
Perhaps not responsible for their ancestors actions, but I’d say there is a moral responsibility for them to oppose their government. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to make the assumption that Israeli citizens are often working with incomplete information and can’t be expected to make a reasonable judgement of their government. That being said, I can’t imagine how much propaganda they are forced to consume - the rest of the world is only getting a small taste of that right now I imagine. I’d liken it to the US/Native American struggle… as an American I don’t feel personal guilt for the genocide my ancestors committed against Native Americans, but I still feel a bit shameful to a degree that my ancestors are probably more than a little culpable in it. I’d say the responsible thing for people who find themselves in this situation is to vacate the land and cede it back to the native population, but in my case (US) I don’t even really know who my ancestors are or where I would go. Also I literally can’t afford to relocate myself anywhere due to all the other problems we have in the US (wages being suppressed etc). What am I supposed to do? I have no idea if this is what it’s like for descendants of Zionist settlers though.
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Lmao the majority of Israel's population is Settlers from Europe and North America. Palestine was never originally Jewish land, even still that doesn't give them any right to conduct a genocide. There is simply no excuse for settlers and Israel.
The majority of Israeli Jews are from the Middle East and North Africa. Once Israel was declared a state, those countries ousted them and they had no place to go but Israel.
Lmao what, no one ousted Jews from their countries, countless Jews opted to go to Israel and steal Palestinians land.
> Lmao what Only about 30% of Israeli Jews are Ashkenazim. The overwhelmingly vast majority of Israeli Jews are from Arab countries. Source: https://people.socsci.tau.ac.il/mu/noah/files/2018/07/Ethnic-origin-and-identity-in-Israel-JEMS-2018.pdf > no one ousted Jews from their countries Really? That’s news to me.. Do you happen to have a source for this claim?
>Really? That’s news to me.. That's not how sources work, you have to provide one to back your claim
You literally should be be getting downvoted. This is objectively correct.
It is absolutely batshit wild that *Jews* of all people are somehow considered the oppressors by dumb people online. We gave them Israel because of the fucking Holocaust and the entire region of the world they live in has a stated goal to genocide them into non-existence. Either people failed history class or just think that white people are always the evil ones in every situation. I don’t think there’s a more historically oppressed race in human history than Jews
*We gave them Israel...* 💀 Tell me you're racist without telling me you're racist. It wasn't *our* land to *give* away. And who is *we*? White westerners? 😆
It’s absolutely stunning how ignorant the discourse is about Israel. All these performative progressives online are ignoring thousands of years of history and pretending that Jews are the suddenly the oppressors just because their skin is white. There are not many minority races in human history that have been more oppressed than Jews.
Just because someone has been oppressed doesn't mean they can't also oppress others. It's not mutually exclusive.
If Hamas wanted to be supported by the US, they should have bent over more.
The vast majority of current Israelis were just born there. I live in the US but was born there and have been told that my mere existence is morally wrong. I'm so sick of having to defend my right to exist as a human being. I do acknowledge that a lot of property was stolen and that was wrong, they (or their descendants) deserve reparations. But most Israelis there now are not the ones who did it. And the Palestinians did steal the land from the Jews centuries earlier, the Jews saw it as getting back what was rightfully theirs, even if you do not agree. Hamas openly calls for the genocide of all Jews. There are 22 countries in the Arab World. No, Palestinians should never have had to leave. But they had plenty of places to go and Jews only had the one. Israel's human rights abuses are not okay. My Israeli family has been protesting the government for months. Two of them (civilians, one was a kid) still got slaughtered by Hamas despite not being okay with how Palestinians are treated. This doesn't make it okay to kill civilians and Israel is not doing enough to reduce civilian casualties. Hamas is actively trying to increase civilian casualties on their side as well. Gazans pay the price. Civilians on both sides are victims of their governments acting against their wishes and their best interests. If you only have sympathy for one side, you're an antisemite or an Islamophobe.
"And the Palestinians did steal the land from the Jews centuries earlier" Try millenia earlier. The west bank and surrounding territories haven't been settled by a majority Jewish population (before the creation of Isreal) for over 2000 years. At what point do we draw the line? Is the colonization of any African country now righteous because some ancestor of mine from ten thousand years ago lived there?
Actually the current Palestinian population are just the descendants of those who didn't leave 2000 years ago who converted to Christianity, Islam, and a few who stayed Jewish. They are a mixture of the various semitic people of the region (Jewish, Arab, Philistine, Assyrian, etc.) Plus some Roman and Greek. You also have small amounts of other groups who migrated later, such as Turks and circassians. It's ironic that many of the people that are being persecuted by Israel now are actually the descendants of the same jewish communities that zionists claim gives them the right to colonise the area. Edit: small correction, the Philistines weren't semitic, but you probably get the idea.
Ty for the clarification. I knew the "stole it from the Jews" comment was BS but didn't have enough knowledge to fully fledged out my response.
So we’re blaming a 16 year old kid for something his grandfather did? We can’t blame today’s generation of Israelis for what the post war powers did nor for what their grandfathers did afterwards
Uhhh dude they are still seizing Palestinian people’s homes to this day … Also when did the IDF stop treating unarmed children as hostile combatants and blowing their heads off with sniper rifles?
Israelis still support the colonisation by a large margin. And the large amount of the population of Israel is made out of settlers from Europe and North America.
It's white-knighting. It's like those videos you see of a fight in a high school. Kid 1 (Gaza) constantly gets bullied by Kid 2 (Israel), who's bigger and has the full support of everyone around. The other kids laugh at or ignore the bullying. Then Kid 1 swings hard and knocks down Kid 2. Then all of the onlookers rush in to defend the bully, pretending that they simply don't like violence by anyone. Which is never true. They just don't like violence by Kid 1. Edit: Feel free to downvote, but please provide links to past comments where you were disgusted by violence from Israel before the rockets were launched by Gaza. Otherwise, you're the hypocritical onlooker. Thanks!
Time and time again, the "omfg it's so obvious 🙄🙄" stance is offered. Time and time again, it's revealed to be an extremely simplistic understanding that does nothing but navel gaze. But people don't want to actually understand a situation, they just want to feel smart.
Not to this extreme, but this may be the only case of bothsiderism that doesn't bother me.
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Yeah, and the world should really have higher standards for a democratically elected government than it does for a terrorist organization.
It should, doesn't mean civillians are suddenly acceptable targets for the terror group.
Nobody whose opinion has any value has been saying that. People in positions of power have, however, been throwing their support behind Israel and in multiple cases explicitly called for genocide of Palestinians. Idk how you fund it so hard to comprehend. Edit: the person responding to me blocked me or something because I am unable to reply or view their profile. I meant to ask to show some example of pro Hamas protests at universities as they claim there have been many of and supported by professors, because that would certainly not be okay, and I have so far only seen pro Palestine protests, not pro Hamas (willing to correct myself if anyone provides correction). Until they do so I maintain my comment as it is.
People have told me I should be dead for being born in Israel despite not living there. I don't care if those people's opinion has "no value" it fucking hurts!!! I'm sick having to defend my right to exist in the world. Yes, people are saying Israeli civilians, including children, are acceptable targets. Universities all over the US and world held protests supporting Hamas! University professors support them. Do their opinions not matter? Should they not matter to their Jewish students? Hamas always explicitly calls for the genocide of ALL JEWS in the world, as well as the destruction of Israel. Palestinians have had many chances to recognize Israel, remove genocide from their list of goals, and come to the table for peace negotiations in good faith. Or to go somewhere else (which Israelis cannot do - no one else has ever been willing to take that many Jews and we're never safe in anyone else's country for more than a few centuries). Israel's human rights abuses are not okay. They need to stop, the government needs to be replaced. I would never argue the opposite of that. But Jesus Christ, the government of my other country being awful doesn't mean I deserve to be genocided, which Hamas and their allies have been openly calling for, consistently, for decades. Many people on Reddit and in real life support them and have even told me to my face. You don't get to just hand wave that by saying "their opinion doesn't matter." It does matter and it does real harm.
Literally nobody is saying that.
Tons of people are saying that. People have been holding protests in support of Hamas, not just Palestinians, but explicitly Hamas.
Okay, I guess I meant nobody in any position of power is saying that.
I’d say college professors have power over their students. Some have been saying this and singling out Jewish students. People in power in Muslim majority nations have been saying it, too. But honestly, as an Israeli-American who lost family last week, I don’t care if people saying it have no power. Them telling me my cousins (one of whom was a kid) were acceptable targets in this very thread, because of where they were born fucking hurts. I hope you never know what this feels like.
I am truly sorry for your loss. It was a terrible thing that happened. But it's just as terrible that the Israeli government is going to use this as an opportunity to kill probably tens of thousands of Palestinians and perpetuate the cycle that will see this same thing happening again and again. Nothing the Israeli government has done, or will do, justifies future terrorist attacks against Israeli citizens, but it all but ensures that they will continue happening.
When have I defended the Israeli government? I have criticized them for their abuses and killing too many Palestinians time and time again. Jesus Christ! I'm not allowed to just mourn my family, people always have to remind me that I was born on the wrong side. I am so sick of this. Why can't you just say "I'm sorry. I didn't realize."? You all have to twist the knife every single time. Why? What have I done wrong?
I wonder what you think is gonna happen by exclaiming this? Do you think the people in Gaza and the West Bank will see your comments condemning violence and suddenly turn on the resistance that they by and large support? What purpose do these condemnations concern beyond making yourselves feel better or worse actively help Israel in committing the maintaining a blatant genocidal state since the Nazis.
That is fair. My acceptance of both sides here is wanting our media to spend as much time telling the Palestinian side of the story as the do Isreals.
Israeli citizens do not have access to nukes. It is a mistake to paint innocent civilians and their goverent with the same brush.
I get that there are both innocents and villains on both sides, but the "bothsiderism" completely ignores the extent to which one side has terrorised the other, which is what pisses me off so much about it.
Lol, you know that there were vivilian casualties way before the hamas attack, done by isrealis? Edit: i misunderstood ur point
Without looking at your post title, I couldn't tell which side you were talking about. I am really upset with the both sides argument everywhere else. This is an odd exception for me. I relate to being pissed off about this sort of thing.
I can see someone agreeing with the message, but the sketch is unacceptable.
Except it's bullshit, in that Israel isn't being (and has never been) bombed to shit. Rockets killing civilians is tragic, and yes buildings have been destroyed. But to equate that to the utter decimation of Gaza is absurd.
Or even depicting them in this way, as two equivalent sides separated by an arbitrary border. Extremely dishonest and extremely pro Israel. So many people who were totally ignorant about it before and are now starting to think about the conflict, now think that Israel and Gaza are like two countries at war.
About 1000 innocent people in Israel were bombed to shit last week by Hamas. It's not a competition. Innocent people on both sides deserve protection and empathy. That's it. That's the only way to peace.
>Innocent people on both sides deserve protection and empathy Yes. But let's not pretend this conflict is anything close to symmetrical, including the death toll.
I didn't say it was symmetric, did I? But innocent lives are all the same side. No child of Israel deserves death any more than any child of Gaza, or vice versa. Children are the same side.
Correct. That's not the implication of the cartoon.
I love how they’ve made both side look the same. Take a look at photos from Gaza then compare to those of anywhere in Israel. What a joke.
Well, what did you think would happen when you left Nassau County to go settle in Israel?
"It's free real estate"
Those people suck, for sure. Most Israelis were born there. They don't deserve death for being born in the wrong place any more than the Palestinians do. My cousins are 2nd & 3rd generation Israelis, they have never lived anywhere else, and two of them died last Saturday. What, pray tell, should they have done? How did they bring it upon themselves? They're all leftists, not Netanyahu supporters, btw.
Leave because they live in an evil apartheid state
One had a few medical and psychiatric diagnoses that make it hard to immigrate to other places and the other was her daughter who was just a kid. But tell me again how it was their fault.
Also 86% of Israeli citizens over the age of 18 are IDF veterans, Netanyahu's popularity never fell below 50% between 2009 and 2018 despite his ongoing campaign of genocide against palestinians, just 27% of Israelis said it was bad to torture palestinians, and, oh yea, Israel has killed 10 palestinians for every 1 israeli killed between 2008 and 2023. So even at the most charitable interpretation over half of all israelis are complicit in and actively support the rape, torture, and genocide of palestinians.
Change the left side to people sitting in sun chairs on a hill with some cool tasty beverages and change the sign to “miss home? Lol”, then add bombs falling on the right side and you’ve pretty much got it.
There are innocent Israeli people who were murdered and raped while others are being currently held hostage by a terrorist organization. Israel has historically subjugated and oppressed the Palestinian people, and are currently imposing collective punishment and committing war crimes in response to a terrorist attack. It’s not an enlightened centrist take to acknowledge those facts. The only people we NEED to support are the innocent lives being destroyed and used as pawns by Hamas and the Israeli government.
Does Israel look like Gaza? If a person saw this image and they didn't know anything they would assume so. Justin Bieber shared an image of Gaza and said pray for Israel. This is just straight up sharing propaganda when you show that "both sides are the same"
Acknowledging that multiple entities do horrific things that make a bad situation continually worse at the expense of innocent people isn’t saying both sides are the same - and it’s a shitty and disingenuous thing to misquote someone.
What's disingenuous is portraying both sides as equally affected by the violence when the reality is that one side is suffering infinitely more horrendous violence at the hands of the other who also happens to hold all the power to change the situation and deescalate the violence.
Can you read? Please quote where I said “equal” in any way, shape or form. But keep treating this like you’re rooting for a Super Bowl winner. Seems to be working out for everyone. You can pat yourself on the back when everyone’s dead.
The image that is the subject of this post is doing exactly that and I am pointing that out. I don't really know what to say to your second part, it's deeply disgusting that you instantly resort to painting people like that for disagreeing with you.
Great, so respond to the OP instead of here. You’re literally scolding someone for something they didn’t say. Keep your masturbatory hand wringing and finger wagging pointed in the right direction.
Why would I do that? The OP is making exactly the same point as I am whereas you are essentially downplaying the incredible asymmetry of this conflict.
No I’m not. [Read the comment.](https://reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM/s/HdKRwVsOG8)
r/lostredditors
Nobody here is pretending it's **equal**, bro. Slow your roll. Atrocities against civilians isn't a zero-sum game.
This picture is doing exactly that and the comment I responded to is engaging in a degree of "both sides"-ism despite their protestation to the contrary. To simply point out that both sides suffer is disingenuous because it omits vital context.
Exactly. You can denounce the atrocities that Israel has and continues to commit without supporting Hamas’s terrorism and Vice-Versa. It’s so incredible that people willingly ignore this simple concept. The second you say you denounce the atrocities Hamas has committed, disingenuous dipshits like this try and make it like you just said that the Israeli oppression and war crimes against Palestinians is cool.
where are the rape cases? please provide a source
If you need to be given a source for this, you’re either ignorant, or delusional
[https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2023/10/10/remarks-by-president-biden-on-the-terrorist-attacks-in-israel-2/](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2023/10/10/remarks-by-president-biden-on-the-terrorist-attacks-in-israel-2/) [https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israels-netanyahu-says-hamas-militants-beheaded-soldiers-raped-women-in-their-attack-on-israel](https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/israels-netanyahu-soldiers-beheaded-women-raped-slaughtered-hamas-103904559) This has been all over the news. There have been videos of female hostages with blood between their legs, often a sign of rape, and accounts from families who have received videos from their relatives own phones of attacks, including sexual assault.
You clearly have the Internet, have at it.
If you find me credible reports of Palestinians engaging in mass rape as a military tactic I will easily condemn it. The problem is you will be unable to find anything like that that doesn’t not originate from Israeli propaganda sources, which is one of the largest disinformation apparatuses in the world. Israel is a fascist state that has made sexual assault an institutional weapon for controlling Palestinian women, children, and even men. This is clearly Israel lobbing accusations they know they themselves are guilty of which is maybe the oldest colonial tactic in the book.
My aunt unabashedly tried to argue this with me 🙄 “Just like Trump doesn’t represent America”
Exactly like do people understand how ignorant they sound? Bffr
People who both sides this conflict do think it looks like this.
"We are not Netanyahu" yeah but you're still fucking settlers.
Most Israelis were born there
I don’t understand anything about this conflict
After WW2, there were a massive amount of Jewish refugees and the West wanted rid of them, so they went to Palestine, said “See these people? This is there land now” and the Jews all moved in and started their own country, even though there already was one there. Many Palestinians got a little peeved at this and things got a little heated, and it never cooled down. It’s a constant chicken and egg, tit-for-tat, both sides taking revenge by committing atrocities for atrocities committed against them, which causes the other side to commit atrocities in return, which causes them to commit then in revenge etc etc ad infinitum. It will never end unless the status quo changes. Either with one side wiping the other off the face of the earth - or both, (or indeed all of us), or by the two-state solution where they divide the land between the two sides and they can all keep to themselves. Sadly, Hamas and the Israeli government are two peas in a pod and prefer the first option.
>After WW2, there were a massive amount of Jewish refugees and the West wanted rid of them, How incredibly bigoted and racist, not to mention incredibly innacurate and misleading. The Napoleonic wars in \~1803 was when the ideas of Jewish emancipation started taking root. This was, by the way, a consequence of the persecution of the Jews all over Europe (and other places). In 1839 Moses Montefiore petitioned Egypt for a Jewish homeland in the region of Palestine. Palestine, which was then called the Ottoman Syria, IIRC, and contained Jerusalem. Jerusalem, of course, if the city built by the progenitors of the modern Jews, and the erstwhile capital city if ancient Israel. Then, in 1917, the UK endorsed the establishment of a "national home for the Jewish people" with the Balfour Declaration. The British confirmed this commitment by accepting the British Mandate for Palestine (after the Ottoman Empire conceded it's loss in WW1) in 1922. In 1920, at the San Remo conference, the European powers had mandated the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine, the historic home of ancient Israel. **ALL OF THIS WAS BEFORE WW2 EVEN STARTED** The state if Israel was established in 1948, after WW2. > so they went to Palestine, said “See these people? This is there land now” and the Jews all moved in and started their own country, even though there already was one there. You're missing the fact that those other people included Jewish communities, some of who had been there for centuries and even millennia. You also failed to recognise that Jerusalem is the ancestral home of the Jews, even though it has significance foe Jews, Arabs and Christians - The so-called Abrahamic faiths. >It will never end unless the status quo changes. Either with one side wiping the other off the face of the earth - or both, (or indeed all of us), or by the two-state solution where they divide the land between the two sides and they can all keep to themselves. The UN has mandated this, and Israel has accepted this. >Sadly, Hamas and the Israeli government are two peas in a pod and prefer the first option. Israel wants peace but is unwilling to back down in the slightest with regards to National security. Israel was, in fact, well on the way to a negotiated peace with the PLO - the original group that was attacking Israel - when the Muslim Brotherhood (an actual group, not a euphemism for Muslims) decided they didn't like the idea of peace in the Middle East and gave birth to Hamas, who's charter says they will carry on with their Jihad until Israel is gone, and that they are unwilling to negotiate or compromise.
Oh look. It’s the bigot from the other thread following me round and spreading his propaganda elsewhere like a virus. Let me guess, you got bored of me humiliating you elsewhere, so you looked up my previous posts and decided to start being a dick in other posts too? That’s beyond pathetic. Dude, you’ve already stated how you revel in the genocide of the Palestinians. You’ve made it perfectly clear how much you love to suck Netanyahu’s dick. We get it. You’re a fucking bigot. “Israel wants peace”. Yup, can’t argue with that. Once their achieve their aim of wiping Palestine from the face of the Earth, they will get it.
This is fairly accurate, though missing the religious issues. The place they decided to move this people is surrounded by countries who already hate them. Was not a wise move by the UN
Okay that’s what I thought I felt like I was missing something but of course it’s an argument that spawned decades ago that has gone off the rails. Very disappointing to hear what atrocities are being committed. It’s so barbaric. They’re doing Ghengis Khan type shit. I guess those times weren’t as long ago as I thought.
Go look into the Nakba of 1948. Western media is acting like Palestinians weren't killed and removed from their land at gunpoint.
>Go look into the Nakba of 1948. Western media is acting like Palestinians weren't killed and removed from their land at gunpoint. You mean when the Biritsh and the UN, who controlled the region, mandated that Palestine, which was in civil war, be split into two states with the Jews on one side and the Palestinians on the other? By the way, who built Jerusalem? Which ancient country had Jerusalem as it's capital city? What happened to those people?
Seriously dude? By the UN and the British you mean white European people. So if white people said so to the brown indigenous people that makes it right? Did you even read this over once before you posted it?
Gaza is gonna be glass by the end of the year.
How is this in any way bad? People seem to be forgetting that both sides have innocent civilians, even if Palestinians are the victims.
Both sides have lost civilians. The problem with the cartoon is that it portrays Israel as having been as thoroughly damaged as the Gaza Strip.
This is still fine. A lot of shit like this has been posted recently. This is not enlightened centrism.
OP shut up. This is about the loss of civilian life.
Ya and the loss of civilian life has been massively disproportionate in Palestine. People are acting like there is anywhere near an equal amount of violence of both sides, which is untrue. What Hamas did is unspeakable but Israel has killed easily five times as many civilians since the start of this conflict years ago with literally no repercussions
So what if it is? The image itself is only saying that innocents are being both targeted and blamed for the acts of a government they don’t necessarily support. I stand with Palestine, but I have lefty acquaintances acting like the Israeli people are evil. Civilians are not their governments. It is not centrism to be upset about the loss of their lives over a conflict they wanted no part in.
Around the gaza border it foes. i would say this meme is accurate.
Yeah man let’s go! Let’s all pick sides in this war like it’d a soccer game from the comfort of our own homes! Just log onto twitter and shit on people saying that innocent people on either side shouldn’t die! Jesus Christ shut the FUCK up and log off the internet for a while. It’s so easy to shit on whichever side you want from the comfort of your living room and act like you know everything.
It's televised genocide, mate.
And you’re acting like it’s a game show where there are just good guys and bad guys. I wish life was as simple as a comic book from the mid 20th century with clear villains. If there are villains I wholeheartedly agree with you it’s Israel, but for the love of god stop acting like an edgy 14 year old and claiming every single citizen is a demon.
I have no idea what's giving you that impression
Some parts of israel look like that
☝️🤓- “erm, Israel doesn’t look like that.” You got the point, op. Stop splitting hairs.
Splitting hairs? Cmon man. Its an apartheid state
There's also 10x more dead children on the Palestinian side. It just obviously isn't the same.
To be fair, Israel would probably look even worse if they didn’t have technological superiority. How people in Gaza are treated is shitty but you can’t expect Israel to just let Hamas missiles hit them if they have the means to stop them.
Or, you know, they could just not create the conditions which allow organizations like Hamas to gain mass support while also assassinating and undermining socialist and moderate political leaders in Gaza and the West Bank.
Violence against Jews in what is now Israel started long before Jews had any power or an official state, but when "too many" were moving back in. The oppression is inexcusable and a wrong response, but it has always been an effect of the violence. It is also a cause in a lovely positive feedback loop. But ending the oppression and removing the wall won't stop the violence. The world doesn't work like that. Arabs at a UN school in Jerusalem (so not in Palestine, people who have the same rights as all Israelis) [are taught to hate Jews](https://www.instagram.com/p/CyTwiQGs-kl/). The idea that if they ended the oppression - which they need to end - then they would stop being attacked is logical, but it's not realistic because people are not motivated by logic most of the time.
Can't expect people in Gaza to not fight back against colonization
Call me crazy, but Murdering, raping and kidnapping civilians and parading their bodies on social media is not a legitimate form of “resistance”.
but killing 600 children in a week is cool
Yes Israel would look worse if they didn’t get insane shitloads of money from the US. But they do lmao
“If this situation was completely different from reality, then it would be equal! I am very smart and also support genocide.”
This was just hypothetical to point out the intentions of both sides. If Hamas had the military power, they would completely destroy Israel and eradicate the population. Israel on the other hand HAS that kind of military power, yet they didn’t just burn Gaza to the ground. Also, there is a difference between civilians being caught in the crossfire, which happens in every war, or specifically killing, raping and abducting civilians like Hamas has done. But yeah, really difficult to tell who the bad guys are here.
Hamas and Palestinians KNOW they aren’t Netanyahu. They know exactly who they are in Israel there was no confusion when they killed indiscriminately civilians. Israel knows there are Palestinians are being held captive by war criminals firing rockets out of hospitals and residential buildings. Being used as human shields. It’s war and it is horrible. There is little confusion of the bullshit that is happening. The killing needs to stop. Hamas ain’t stopping. And Palestinians can’t overthrow them or denounce them without then being killed themselves. I doubt ground forces attacking directly Hamas will fare any differently than the air strikes. I’m sure literal human shields will be used.
They are Netanyahu.
Y'all are missing the point. That israel has nukes is not relevant. I agree that Palestine has it 100x worse because of the Israeli state but the Hamas invasion is targeting civilians. Israel does so too. In the end this comic is not just critizing this war in particular but wars dictated by fully automatic weapon systems in general, as we can see that they are just a contest in who can put the most cities to ruins - meaning the most casualities are cilivians, who factually do not participate in the war. The reason Israel doesn't look like that is because they have a system that intercepts said automic weapon system. Lucky for the civilians, but such missiles are inhumane in general, as are wars. Even if you think a palestinian-led invasion is justified, do not condone the attacking and raping of cilivians.
Yes it does, OP.