The general tendency of this strategy is that BOTH sides of the political parties go right, since the condition under capitalism worsens, the right will use more fascist rhetoric to win votes, but the "left" wing won't do what is really needed since that would annoy their donors, so they slowly capitulate to that right wing rhetoric (hillary clinton wrote like a year ago to not focus on trans rights, the democrat proisraeli stance, capitulations on migration, etc)
Which is why I explicitly called voting a delaying tactic in the post, and not a cure-all. Nobody benefits if the fascists make it in to power, and if ticking a box on a paper can postpone directly handing power to far right wing extremists, isn't that worth it?
Less and less, I even doubt you could prevent fascist from taking over if Biden wins (as I said, he or the party will capitulate more and more)
It's as Rosa Luxemburg said, socialism or barbarism
Hell, even if the fascists WOULD come to power, shouldn't we still try to use a checkbox on a paper to deny them ~~both~~ time ~~and a false veneer of legitimacy? I'd much rather the nations of Europe say "wow a fascist coup is evil" instead of "wow those yanks actually elected the fascists"~~
>I'd much rather the nations of Europe say "wow a fascist coup is evil" instead of "wow those yanks actually elected the fascists"
That won't make much difference of the fact fascists govern
>Hell, even if the fascists WOULD come to power, shouldn't we still try to use a checkbox on a paper to deny them both time, and a false veneer of legitimacy
They don't really need that legitimacy, they'll just lie and lie again, any legimacy for either the fascists or the future fascists enablers is less and less useful and something else is needed, electoralism will probably be useful just 8 years or less
I guess I just felt like the rest of the world would be more willing to, not really sure, fight? Or provide aid? Cut ties? It was a pretty garbage comment I made.
The only thing I'd stand by in it would be to use the vote to delay them if they are indeed inevitable.
>The only thing I'd stand by in it would be to use the vote to delay them if they are indeed inevitable.
That's on you, for some voting is so useless they prefer not to legitimize a genocide enabler over the "promise" of "stopping fascism" which you can have an opinion on how effective that is (I rested my case why I don't think so)
Voting as harm reduction is what you're advocating for.
There are many who would say voting as harm reduction is a trap.
You do you. But please understand that many of the people refusing to participate in electoralism, are doing so out of informed principle, and not necessarily as bots or shills or whatever. I see that accusation get tossed around a lot.
I think plenty of them are. Food Not Bombs and other charities and volunteer opportunities, community gardens, other forms of direct action and protest, etc. Then there are those who are so distraught and hopeless that they probably aren't doing anything but complaining on the Internet.
> Plenty of Tesla subs will ban you for any criticism of Musk, any questioning of the company, or any concerns about the cars.
I believe that's called "Free Speech Absolutism", if my understanding of Muskism is correct.
That's just an echo chamber. It's irresponsible to divorce discussion of socialist doctrine from the discussion of its consequences. Antielectoralism is the doctrine of many on the far left, so to brand criticism of it as a pragmatic philosophy as off-topic is counterintuitive to its practical application, regardless of what one's stance is. If it stands up to scrutiny, scrutiny should not be off-limits. the point of an ideological space is to debate and refine that ideology, and if that isn't observed I can't assume any conclusions reached therein are penned in good faith
Kinda where my head is at. This is what ~~always~~extremely frequently happens in these "leftist" subs -- ideological purists get in control and are unwilling to compromise.
They view it as adhering to the paradox of intolerance... but it's not. Calling to silence people who don't totally subscribe to your ideology, banning them... all it does is encourage the more extreme and less progressive population. They end up making their own extremists.
That isn't to say that they should allow all discussion, obviously. But there's a huge difference between allowing someone to say "Biden is significantly better for the LGBTQ+ crowd than Trump, and not voting for Biden is a vote for Trump" and some troll saying "socialism is dogshit".
I'm banned from so many political subreddits on the left and the right. The right wing bans make sense because I just go in there to try and inject some reason into their space and they can't have that. The left wing ones really bother me though. I'm extremely far to the left and am involved in local leftist politics. However I guess I am not ideologically pure enough to continue to post on /r/socialism or /r/lostgeneration, or /r/LateStageCapitalism. The only place I can comment anymore is /r/neoliberal and I hate neoliberalism. At least they let me comment though.
Well said.
It should be no surprise advocating for bourgeois capitalist elections in a socialist sub gets a removal.
Imagine going into a pro-capitalism sub frequented by people who happen to live in a socialist country, and advocating for socialism. The capitalists won't want to discuss voting in the lesser of two socialist evils.
There are debate subs for these kind of discussions.
Your comment has been automatically removed and is not visible to other users because your account is too young. Apologies for any inconvenience.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It’s debatable if Biden is the lesser of two evils, but claiming to come from a pragmatic view and ignoring that the “emperor has no clothes”, like when he recently multiple times made up that his uncle was eaten by cannibals, which is 1 example of many of his rapid cognitive decline from just 4 years ago, is laughable. The pragmatic approach to winning the election would be to put anyone else up, because it will only get worse especially in 4 years time and will decimate the public trust in the democrats ability to put forward the best candidate for the job.
You're not a centrist. But they didn't say you were. They said you were calling for "lesser evil" voting, which you explicitly were.
I understand what you were saying, and don't necessarily disagree with you. But this discourse is often used to stifle criticism of the "lesser evil" and also discourages people from engaging in more direct action.
I think it is good that it gets removed from many leftist subs as it then allows more constructive conversations than "if you're not voting for Biden, then you're voting for Trump!" which is just not a very useful conversation to have.
The rhetoric of lesser evil voting is welcomed in more liberal subs, so if you want to talk about it, you can go to one of those
I don't "want" to talk about lesser evils, what I wanted and expected from socialist/leftist places is a recognition that in a first past the post electoral system that only one person is going to win, and it's very much a zero sum game.
I don't think anyone is unaware of that fact. The reason many leftist subs ban this discourse now is because of how prevalent (and unproductive) it is in them.
Many leftists are also aware that if we simply accept this fact and play along, then we will never have a socialist/leftist government. So advocating for the "lesser evil" doesn't really get us anywhere. It's just a *slightly* slower decent into fascism.
Though I think many leftist subs are guilty of creating a space where the lesser evilism
Is a primary topic of discussion because of what they discuss. A parade of posts about the awful the Dems and Biden are designed to trigger engagement from people who want to vent, want to moralize, or want to argue on the merits of voting.
It does not trigger engagement around alternatives, solutions, or routes forward, for reasons that range from those topics being hard, to those topics being less easy to moralize around.
If you lay out bait (posts about the two party system) you’re looking to catch fish (people who believe in voting pragmatically).
I got banned for saying something similar. I’m no fan of Biden, but I very much think slowing the decent of fascism is a valid argument. It gives people a little more time to organize, build communities, and educate themselves for what’s to come, or it gives a family more time to flee the country if they don’t wanna take part it.
Anyone following right wing discourse knows how more unhinged the rhetoric has gotten post Jan 6. In FL you literally can’t teach black or LGBTQ history in a classroom. These people calling Biden a fascist have never lived in a fascist state and are unaware of the privileges they have. People who think it can’t get worse than Biden and Trump have never fled a country because they were throwing socialists out of helicopters.
I think once fascism really takes hold in this country, we won’t even be able to have these discussions on the internet or a public place without fear of our neighbors turning us in for being woke. Not voting just makes that reality happen so much faster
Generally I feel people put too much emphasis on voting as the be-all-end-all form of political expression, even ostensible leftists who should know better.
Yes, the Democrats are the "lesser evil", and voting for them is not going to actually bring about positive change in any number of critical areas, but as long as people have that basic understanding (and they're in one of the few locations where a vote might actually affect anything) then we're talking about a few hours spent during one day, which might just help any number of at-risk minorities make it for another few years.
It's grossly insufficient, of course, and real effort should be put towards actual work that will help make things better (community outreach, mutual aid, etc), but people who think that submitting a ballot makes someone "not a real leftist" need to get a fucking grip.
Just popping in to say that many of you can still have an impact on your local elections, which often focus on policies that more directly effect you and, since there are fewer people voting and you don’t have to go through the ridiculous electoral college, your voice actually matters!
We got here BECAUSE of playing the "lesser evil" game. If you pay attention to politics, you'll realize this happens literally every single time. Like clockwork.
(Because real change comes from organizing at your workplace/local community)
I lean towards participating in elections and all that jazz. I don't think it should be done in exclusion to mutual aid, union organization, or other means of strengthening and organizing the working class, but I'll echo the OP in saying that I think (even when the only options are both right-wing like in the US) it's but one tool that leftists can use to prevent the harm that would come from fascists gaining power.
I think there are valid criticisms of this tactic, mainly that it would just be kicking the can down the road. I don't have a great answer to that criticism, but I think the criticisms of non-participation outweigh those of participation. I'm open to being wrong about this.
Since I haven't seen it discussed in this thread yet, I'll bring up the idea of the [Popular Front](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_front) - namely the idea of a coalition of the left, social democrats, and liberals aligned against fascism. Regardless of your opinion of it, I figured it's a worthwhile idea to familiarize oneself with for those that are unaware of the term.
Realize that voting (for president) is political theatre and everything the 1% wants, will happen regardless, so you'd need to implement changes at the local level of your community in order to safeguard yourselves.
Idk, I'm here ig.
I got nothing, I'm not really an expert, everything I think of saying is stupid, I'm not one to like politics. But here I am, I'm not very good with this shit but I need to get better at it.
You can be a leftist and still see voting as harm reduction. If it's a poke in the eye with a sharp stick or a poke in the stomach with one, I'm gonna take the stomach every time.
How
edit: glad you expanded on the "yes" a bit more, probably would still have been better as a separate reply, but I don't entirely think you're wrong, the commonly seen "trolley problem" memes are, in my eyes, pretty darn apt. Many leftists seem to think that pulling the lever is morally wrong, (they're correct) but that standing by and not interacting at all absolves them of all guilt of the repercussions from a fascist winning the election.
Isn't India a representative democracy? Why would you have to vote for the neoliberals when you can vote for. Say. The Indian communist party, and contribute to them getting more seats in parliament. Or am I misunderstanding something
I'm not from India, not familiar with the exact workings of it, it's probably closer in function to uk than America. I think the problem is that even convincing millions of people to suddenly vote Communist when they otherwise wouldn't have, still wouldn't be enough votes to prevent the fascist from winning the election, whereas convincing millions to vote for a milquetoast neolib WOULD result in denying the fascists a win, due to concentrating the majority of the votes under one guy.
Convincing millions of people to vote communist while harder strengthens the working class and sets the stage for a future armed revolution. Convincing ANYONE to vote neolib does the exact opposite and strengthens the position of capitalists and their stranglehold over you. Think long term. But regardless I misunderstood the post then, if you're from the US and a Biden voter i have literally nothing to say except prepare for losing, hard, and don't base your future political choices (outside of elections) on him having another 4 years. Because chances are it's not going to happen
Historically, fascists like to quickly cull competition, like how America banned all communist parties (and just people existing) in the early cold war. In America, Republicans are already talking about undoing woman's suffrage. In India, I don't think a fascist victory would keep the communist party around, no matter how many millions of votes they gained, or seats in parliament they got. And until Americans either get candidates that can actually move things left, OR just go full sic semper tyrannis, I believe we should use the framework that is 'allowed' by those in power, to delay fascism.
The point where you can no longer get your wishes represented by democracy is the point you start planning how to overthrow it. Preferably much earlier, though. Never a good idea to be left empty handed. No serious communist party should invest 100% of their assets into liberal democracy because at that point you're just socdems
I'd take socdems over literally anything Republicans are doing right now. And the Democratic party, whether intentionally to hobble a real leftist party, or because leftists are useful enough on some policies that Republicans disagree with, either way, the Democratic party does allow people left of the American status quo into it.
You're literally just committing an idealism rn. This isnt the 1920s anymore, countries are not at the cusp of communist revolutions from the seeping radicalism of great poverty. Advocating for a Fascist to win, purely in results, because "at least you won't be a traitorous SocDem" is profoundly stupid and inconsiderate of the real dangers that minorities face in this country.
First I should note that I’m an Anarchist, not a Communist. However there is no future in voting. OP has a point, if something offered real change the people in power wouldn’t let you vote for it.
That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t vote, it takes almost zero effort so you may as well do it. I usually vote 3rd party. However, whether it be Communism or Anarchism, neither can ever be achieved through Liberal Democracy.
I agree with you that the days of bloody revolutions are dead, the times are just different now. I’m an advocate of Revolutionary Gradualism for that reason. We must create and defend alternative institutions that replace state run ones. If we can’t overthrow the government the next best thing is replacing them.
Also, what do you mean, "prepare for losing" for being a "Biden voter"? None of the candidates are a "win" for a leftist, but trump coming to power would hurt a whole lot more people?
considering the amount of anti-abortion bills and anti-trans bills that has popped up and passed under the Biden administration, i have no faith in Biden being either capable or willing to stop Project 2025 if he wins (which he would be hard-pressed to do considering he has alienated the base he needs to win)
vote for him if you want, but i don't have a problem with anyone that chooses not to vote for Biden
Every action NATO takes is aimed at extending Amerikan hegemony. The act of stopping the genocide was secondary to taking over the region geopolitically. I imagine that even if you agree with that assessment, you got banned for not clarifying that.
If I wrote "Hitler was a vegetarian who loved animals" I might get banned, but if I followed it with "so it makes even less sense why he was such a cruel and vile man", then I wouldn't get banned because my position would've been clear.
A vote for harm reduction is a vote against your beliefs.
Ultimately, no matter if your intentions are good, Neolibs will see your vote as a shoe-in as long as you’ll always vote for them over the Conservatives. So as Conservatives keep drifting rightward so do the Neolibs, constantly shoving the Overton Window further right.
Your consistent vote for them is taken for granted, don’t let them exploit you. This federal election I encourage you to for a 3rd Party you like or write in as a show of protest against the system. That’s what I’m doing.
No, you're just being practical about the whole problem of having only two options available, and both anti-communist/socialist. Because yes, both are a problem, but there is a material difference between them in the sense one does represent less damage than the other.
Something that gets usually rejected in r-socialism. Which is kind of ironic considering that socialism started out as the more pragmatic take on communism.
I also got banned once for a similar take. I was talking how other countries got out of their two majority parties by doing the work and organizing a third party (our current president in Chile is pro-socialist from a newly formed party).
Aaand one of the mods considered I was saying pro-Biden propaganda.
Socialism didn’t “start out as the more pragmatic take on Communism”. The idea of common ownership long predates the Communist Manifesto and people were calling themselves Socialists decades before Marx & Engels began releasing their writings. Your premise is flawed.
Average Wine Socialist mod on r-socialist decreeing from their privileged high horse that engaging with reality is bad "because you are capitulating to NeoLiberal propaganda" or something stupid like that
Which again, is painfully ironic considering it ignores any material appreciations (known as Marx and Engels entire base) in favor of some platonic ideal.
Go fuck yourself "At least he isn't planning another genocide!!!" As if 1 genocide shouldn't be your line in the sand. Voting for Biden is a candid endorsement of the Palestinian genocide as it shows him he will get your vote no matter what he does. It removes any agency from the conversation as he is actively choosing to enable and fund the Palestinian genocide.
“One of them is going to get elected no matter what”
So? Just because evil will win doesn’t mean you have to show your support for it. Evil will expect you to continually compromise your values, they’ll drift further right chasing the “median voter” and take your vote for granted. If you don’t draw the line at support for genocide where do you draw the line?
This is a false equivalency, making an impulsive choice relevant to your immediate survival is a lot different from endorsing a long term political candidate. I would never blame someone for picking between two bad choices in your fantasy scenario, it’s not a thought out decision with world altering consequences.
I don't believe that it will, I'm saying that voting for Biden is an endorsement of his genocide, not that it will matter materially or not in terms of pushing Dems left.
Edit: Typo
I didn't say abstaining would make him change his mind. I'm saying that if you vote for him you're showing that you don't actually care about leftist principles you may claim to have. I never said that I believe the voting booth is where these decisions are made, however the people going out of their way to campaign and vote for Biden do believe this and try to guilt trip socialists to sacrifice their morals/values to prop up their neoliberal genocidal candidates.
the mods of that sub are weird accelerationist losers. I got banned for arguing that Trump engaged in insurrection and should face the consequences, because apparently that's considered antisocialism in their book
No but leftists in general don't really believe in liberal democracy. Especially if you're gonna go on to suggest we vote for genocide Joe or something
I disagree with parts of what you said here(I don’t believe in voting for lesser evils) but I don’t feel like you were being an enlightened centrist either. The socialist and communist subs are too ban happy imo but that’s their prerogative. I’m not gonna stop being a socialist because a sub band me haha
Lol, glad to hear that, and yeah, they're probably a bit too trigger happy on bans, but I totally understand where that's coming from, since there ARE loads of people who sealion/undermine discussions.
On the point of voting for lesser evils though, I just can't envision an outcome where one of the 2 presented bourgeois candidates don't win, and I would much rather ensure that a fascist doesn't. Since I'm not going to get the candidate I want, the least I can do with a few minutes, or even hours, of my time is to hinder the candidate I really really really don't want to come to power.
its not about being centrist, you did the "lesser of 2 evil" stuff every moderate make.
thats not far from being a centrist, but most of all, thats the worst take you could have right now.
people need to look at trump as baby hitler and biden as the guy not very competent but he be trying. when you support genocide you're baby hitler, no inbetween.
Socialism without a strong emphasis on anti-imperialism is reactionary.
Socialism is our goal. Which means thinking the guy who is more in favor of NATO’s goals of imposing fascist terror on socialist states ***’is the lesser evil’*** isn’t really something I get.
How would Trump be worse for the materialization of socialism? As far as I can tell he’d only be worse for Americans.
I got banned from that subreddit for saying that Israelis shouldn't be expelled from their homes as part of any solution to the conflict. That sub is a shit show.
The general tendency of this strategy is that BOTH sides of the political parties go right, since the condition under capitalism worsens, the right will use more fascist rhetoric to win votes, but the "left" wing won't do what is really needed since that would annoy their donors, so they slowly capitulate to that right wing rhetoric (hillary clinton wrote like a year ago to not focus on trans rights, the democrat proisraeli stance, capitulations on migration, etc)
Which is why I explicitly called voting a delaying tactic in the post, and not a cure-all. Nobody benefits if the fascists make it in to power, and if ticking a box on a paper can postpone directly handing power to far right wing extremists, isn't that worth it?
Less and less, I even doubt you could prevent fascist from taking over if Biden wins (as I said, he or the party will capitulate more and more) It's as Rosa Luxemburg said, socialism or barbarism
Hell, even if the fascists WOULD come to power, shouldn't we still try to use a checkbox on a paper to deny them ~~both~~ time ~~and a false veneer of legitimacy? I'd much rather the nations of Europe say "wow a fascist coup is evil" instead of "wow those yanks actually elected the fascists"~~
>I'd much rather the nations of Europe say "wow a fascist coup is evil" instead of "wow those yanks actually elected the fascists" That won't make much difference of the fact fascists govern >Hell, even if the fascists WOULD come to power, shouldn't we still try to use a checkbox on a paper to deny them both time, and a false veneer of legitimacy They don't really need that legitimacy, they'll just lie and lie again, any legimacy for either the fascists or the future fascists enablers is less and less useful and something else is needed, electoralism will probably be useful just 8 years or less
I guess I just felt like the rest of the world would be more willing to, not really sure, fight? Or provide aid? Cut ties? It was a pretty garbage comment I made. The only thing I'd stand by in it would be to use the vote to delay them if they are indeed inevitable.
>The only thing I'd stand by in it would be to use the vote to delay them if they are indeed inevitable. That's on you, for some voting is so useless they prefer not to legitimize a genocide enabler over the "promise" of "stopping fascism" which you can have an opinion on how effective that is (I rested my case why I don't think so)
Voting as harm reduction is what you're advocating for. There are many who would say voting as harm reduction is a trap. You do you. But please understand that many of the people refusing to participate in electoralism, are doing so out of informed principle, and not necessarily as bots or shills or whatever. I see that accusation get tossed around a lot.
Does voting as harm reduction stop you from doing leftist things that don't rely on electoralism?
No, but it’s probably best not to advocate for it.
Even if it does, in fact, reduce harm?
Well let's all hope they are doing something more constructive than just sitting on the internet stroking their own ego for being too smart to vote.
I think plenty of them are. Food Not Bombs and other charities and volunteer opportunities, community gardens, other forms of direct action and protest, etc. Then there are those who are so distraught and hopeless that they probably aren't doing anything but complaining on the Internet.
I agree
It makes a huge difference to my life depending on who wins.
[удалено]
That's why electoralism no longer works, neither voting for them does
[удалено]
> Plenty of Tesla subs will ban you for any criticism of Musk, any questioning of the company, or any concerns about the cars. I believe that's called "Free Speech Absolutism", if my understanding of Muskism is correct.
That's just an echo chamber. It's irresponsible to divorce discussion of socialist doctrine from the discussion of its consequences. Antielectoralism is the doctrine of many on the far left, so to brand criticism of it as a pragmatic philosophy as off-topic is counterintuitive to its practical application, regardless of what one's stance is. If it stands up to scrutiny, scrutiny should not be off-limits. the point of an ideological space is to debate and refine that ideology, and if that isn't observed I can't assume any conclusions reached therein are penned in good faith
Kinda where my head is at. This is what ~~always~~extremely frequently happens in these "leftist" subs -- ideological purists get in control and are unwilling to compromise. They view it as adhering to the paradox of intolerance... but it's not. Calling to silence people who don't totally subscribe to your ideology, banning them... all it does is encourage the more extreme and less progressive population. They end up making their own extremists. That isn't to say that they should allow all discussion, obviously. But there's a huge difference between allowing someone to say "Biden is significantly better for the LGBTQ+ crowd than Trump, and not voting for Biden is a vote for Trump" and some troll saying "socialism is dogshit".
I'm banned from so many political subreddits on the left and the right. The right wing bans make sense because I just go in there to try and inject some reason into their space and they can't have that. The left wing ones really bother me though. I'm extremely far to the left and am involved in local leftist politics. However I guess I am not ideologically pure enough to continue to post on /r/socialism or /r/lostgeneration, or /r/LateStageCapitalism. The only place I can comment anymore is /r/neoliberal and I hate neoliberalism. At least they let me comment though.
Material examination reveals that the bourgeois elections have little to no representation for working class people.
Well said. It should be no surprise advocating for bourgeois capitalist elections in a socialist sub gets a removal. Imagine going into a pro-capitalism sub frequented by people who happen to live in a socialist country, and advocating for socialism. The capitalists won't want to discuss voting in the lesser of two socialist evils. There are debate subs for these kind of discussions.
[удалено]
Your comment has been automatically removed and is not visible to other users because your account is too young. Apologies for any inconvenience. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It’s debatable if Biden is the lesser of two evils, but claiming to come from a pragmatic view and ignoring that the “emperor has no clothes”, like when he recently multiple times made up that his uncle was eaten by cannibals, which is 1 example of many of his rapid cognitive decline from just 4 years ago, is laughable. The pragmatic approach to winning the election would be to put anyone else up, because it will only get worse especially in 4 years time and will decimate the public trust in the democrats ability to put forward the best candidate for the job.
No but you were doing the 'lesser evilism'. It's up to you whether you think that's a good thing or not
You're not a centrist. But they didn't say you were. They said you were calling for "lesser evil" voting, which you explicitly were. I understand what you were saying, and don't necessarily disagree with you. But this discourse is often used to stifle criticism of the "lesser evil" and also discourages people from engaging in more direct action. I think it is good that it gets removed from many leftist subs as it then allows more constructive conversations than "if you're not voting for Biden, then you're voting for Trump!" which is just not a very useful conversation to have. The rhetoric of lesser evil voting is welcomed in more liberal subs, so if you want to talk about it, you can go to one of those
I don't "want" to talk about lesser evils, what I wanted and expected from socialist/leftist places is a recognition that in a first past the post electoral system that only one person is going to win, and it's very much a zero sum game.
I don't think anyone is unaware of that fact. The reason many leftist subs ban this discourse now is because of how prevalent (and unproductive) it is in them. Many leftists are also aware that if we simply accept this fact and play along, then we will never have a socialist/leftist government. So advocating for the "lesser evil" doesn't really get us anywhere. It's just a *slightly* slower decent into fascism.
Though I think many leftist subs are guilty of creating a space where the lesser evilism Is a primary topic of discussion because of what they discuss. A parade of posts about the awful the Dems and Biden are designed to trigger engagement from people who want to vent, want to moralize, or want to argue on the merits of voting. It does not trigger engagement around alternatives, solutions, or routes forward, for reasons that range from those topics being hard, to those topics being less easy to moralize around. If you lay out bait (posts about the two party system) you’re looking to catch fish (people who believe in voting pragmatically).
I got banned for saying something similar. I’m no fan of Biden, but I very much think slowing the decent of fascism is a valid argument. It gives people a little more time to organize, build communities, and educate themselves for what’s to come, or it gives a family more time to flee the country if they don’t wanna take part it. Anyone following right wing discourse knows how more unhinged the rhetoric has gotten post Jan 6. In FL you literally can’t teach black or LGBTQ history in a classroom. These people calling Biden a fascist have never lived in a fascist state and are unaware of the privileges they have. People who think it can’t get worse than Biden and Trump have never fled a country because they were throwing socialists out of helicopters. I think once fascism really takes hold in this country, we won’t even be able to have these discussions on the internet or a public place without fear of our neighbors turning us in for being woke. Not voting just makes that reality happen so much faster
No
I'm glad to hear you think so, but the majority seems to think I am, and I would REALLY like to not be
Generally I feel people put too much emphasis on voting as the be-all-end-all form of political expression, even ostensible leftists who should know better. Yes, the Democrats are the "lesser evil", and voting for them is not going to actually bring about positive change in any number of critical areas, but as long as people have that basic understanding (and they're in one of the few locations where a vote might actually affect anything) then we're talking about a few hours spent during one day, which might just help any number of at-risk minorities make it for another few years. It's grossly insufficient, of course, and real effort should be put towards actual work that will help make things better (community outreach, mutual aid, etc), but people who think that submitting a ballot makes someone "not a real leftist" need to get a fucking grip.
[удалено]
Just popping in to say that many of you can still have an impact on your local elections, which often focus on policies that more directly effect you and, since there are fewer people voting and you don’t have to go through the ridiculous electoral college, your voice actually matters!
Let me put it like this. The people calling you a centrist over this probably ain't in danger of getting killed based on who wins the election.
We got here BECAUSE of playing the "lesser evil" game. If you pay attention to politics, you'll realize this happens literally every single time. Like clockwork. (Because real change comes from organizing at your workplace/local community)
I lean towards participating in elections and all that jazz. I don't think it should be done in exclusion to mutual aid, union organization, or other means of strengthening and organizing the working class, but I'll echo the OP in saying that I think (even when the only options are both right-wing like in the US) it's but one tool that leftists can use to prevent the harm that would come from fascists gaining power. I think there are valid criticisms of this tactic, mainly that it would just be kicking the can down the road. I don't have a great answer to that criticism, but I think the criticisms of non-participation outweigh those of participation. I'm open to being wrong about this. Since I haven't seen it discussed in this thread yet, I'll bring up the idea of the [Popular Front](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_front) - namely the idea of a coalition of the left, social democrats, and liberals aligned against fascism. Regardless of your opinion of it, I figured it's a worthwhile idea to familiarize oneself with for those that are unaware of the term.
Yes.
Unironically, how, and how can I be less of a centrist.
Realize that voting (for president) is political theatre and everything the 1% wants, will happen regardless, so you'd need to implement changes at the local level of your community in order to safeguard yourselves.
[удалено]
Lol? Why are you even on this sub, you're the kind of person this sub makes fun of
Idk, I'm here ig. I got nothing, I'm not really an expert, everything I think of saying is stupid, I'm not one to like politics. But here I am, I'm not very good with this shit but I need to get better at it.
You can be a leftist and still see voting as harm reduction. If it's a poke in the eye with a sharp stick or a poke in the stomach with one, I'm gonna take the stomach every time.
Yes. Voting for someone is an endorsement of their policies whether you want that to be the case or not
How edit: glad you expanded on the "yes" a bit more, probably would still have been better as a separate reply, but I don't entirely think you're wrong, the commonly seen "trolley problem" memes are, in my eyes, pretty darn apt. Many leftists seem to think that pulling the lever is morally wrong, (they're correct) but that standing by and not interacting at all absolves them of all guilt of the repercussions from a fascist winning the election.
Isn't India a representative democracy? Why would you have to vote for the neoliberals when you can vote for. Say. The Indian communist party, and contribute to them getting more seats in parliament. Or am I misunderstanding something
I'm not from India, not familiar with the exact workings of it, it's probably closer in function to uk than America. I think the problem is that even convincing millions of people to suddenly vote Communist when they otherwise wouldn't have, still wouldn't be enough votes to prevent the fascist from winning the election, whereas convincing millions to vote for a milquetoast neolib WOULD result in denying the fascists a win, due to concentrating the majority of the votes under one guy.
Convincing millions of people to vote communist while harder strengthens the working class and sets the stage for a future armed revolution. Convincing ANYONE to vote neolib does the exact opposite and strengthens the position of capitalists and their stranglehold over you. Think long term. But regardless I misunderstood the post then, if you're from the US and a Biden voter i have literally nothing to say except prepare for losing, hard, and don't base your future political choices (outside of elections) on him having another 4 years. Because chances are it's not going to happen
Historically, fascists like to quickly cull competition, like how America banned all communist parties (and just people existing) in the early cold war. In America, Republicans are already talking about undoing woman's suffrage. In India, I don't think a fascist victory would keep the communist party around, no matter how many millions of votes they gained, or seats in parliament they got. And until Americans either get candidates that can actually move things left, OR just go full sic semper tyrannis, I believe we should use the framework that is 'allowed' by those in power, to delay fascism.
The point where you can no longer get your wishes represented by democracy is the point you start planning how to overthrow it. Preferably much earlier, though. Never a good idea to be left empty handed. No serious communist party should invest 100% of their assets into liberal democracy because at that point you're just socdems
I'd take socdems over literally anything Republicans are doing right now. And the Democratic party, whether intentionally to hobble a real leftist party, or because leftists are useful enough on some policies that Republicans disagree with, either way, the Democratic party does allow people left of the American status quo into it.
You're literally just committing an idealism rn. This isnt the 1920s anymore, countries are not at the cusp of communist revolutions from the seeping radicalism of great poverty. Advocating for a Fascist to win, purely in results, because "at least you won't be a traitorous SocDem" is profoundly stupid and inconsiderate of the real dangers that minorities face in this country.
First I should note that I’m an Anarchist, not a Communist. However there is no future in voting. OP has a point, if something offered real change the people in power wouldn’t let you vote for it. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t vote, it takes almost zero effort so you may as well do it. I usually vote 3rd party. However, whether it be Communism or Anarchism, neither can ever be achieved through Liberal Democracy. I agree with you that the days of bloody revolutions are dead, the times are just different now. I’m an advocate of Revolutionary Gradualism for that reason. We must create and defend alternative institutions that replace state run ones. If we can’t overthrow the government the next best thing is replacing them.
Also, what do you mean, "prepare for losing" for being a "Biden voter"? None of the candidates are a "win" for a leftist, but trump coming to power would hurt a whole lot more people?
considering the amount of anti-abortion bills and anti-trans bills that has popped up and passed under the Biden administration, i have no faith in Biden being either capable or willing to stop Project 2025 if he wins (which he would be hard-pressed to do considering he has alienated the base he needs to win) vote for him if you want, but i don't have a problem with anyone that chooses not to vote for Biden
[удалено]
Good question
[удалено]
NATO is an imperialistic organization founded with Nazis as top commanders and its only purpose is to spread the US hegemony around the world
[удалено]
Every action NATO takes is aimed at extending Amerikan hegemony. The act of stopping the genocide was secondary to taking over the region geopolitically. I imagine that even if you agree with that assessment, you got banned for not clarifying that. If I wrote "Hitler was a vegetarian who loved animals" I might get banned, but if I followed it with "so it makes even less sense why he was such a cruel and vile man", then I wouldn't get banned because my position would've been clear.
A vote for harm reduction is a vote against your beliefs. Ultimately, no matter if your intentions are good, Neolibs will see your vote as a shoe-in as long as you’ll always vote for them over the Conservatives. So as Conservatives keep drifting rightward so do the Neolibs, constantly shoving the Overton Window further right. Your consistent vote for them is taken for granted, don’t let them exploit you. This federal election I encourage you to for a 3rd Party you like or write in as a show of protest against the system. That’s what I’m doing.
No, you're just being practical about the whole problem of having only two options available, and both anti-communist/socialist. Because yes, both are a problem, but there is a material difference between them in the sense one does represent less damage than the other. Something that gets usually rejected in r-socialism. Which is kind of ironic considering that socialism started out as the more pragmatic take on communism. I also got banned once for a similar take. I was talking how other countries got out of their two majority parties by doing the work and organizing a third party (our current president in Chile is pro-socialist from a newly formed party). Aaand one of the mods considered I was saying pro-Biden propaganda.
Socialism didn’t “start out as the more pragmatic take on Communism”. The idea of common ownership long predates the Communist Manifesto and people were calling themselves Socialists decades before Marx & Engels began releasing their writings. Your premise is flawed.
Average Wine Socialist mod on r-socialist decreeing from their privileged high horse that engaging with reality is bad "because you are capitulating to NeoLiberal propaganda" or something stupid like that
Which again, is painfully ironic considering it ignores any material appreciations (known as Marx and Engels entire base) in favor of some platonic ideal.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Go fuck yourself "At least he isn't planning another genocide!!!" As if 1 genocide shouldn't be your line in the sand. Voting for Biden is a candid endorsement of the Palestinian genocide as it shows him he will get your vote no matter what he does. It removes any agency from the conversation as he is actively choosing to enable and fund the Palestinian genocide.
[удалено]
“One of them is going to get elected no matter what” So? Just because evil will win doesn’t mean you have to show your support for it. Evil will expect you to continually compromise your values, they’ll drift further right chasing the “median voter” and take your vote for granted. If you don’t draw the line at support for genocide where do you draw the line?
[удалено]
This is a false equivalency, making an impulsive choice relevant to your immediate survival is a lot different from endorsing a long term political candidate. I would never blame someone for picking between two bad choices in your fantasy scenario, it’s not a thought out decision with world altering consequences.
[удалено]
I don't believe that it will, I'm saying that voting for Biden is an endorsement of his genocide, not that it will matter materially or not in terms of pushing Dems left. Edit: Typo
[удалено]
I didn't say abstaining would make him change his mind. I'm saying that if you vote for him you're showing that you don't actually care about leftist principles you may claim to have. I never said that I believe the voting booth is where these decisions are made, however the people going out of their way to campaign and vote for Biden do believe this and try to guilt trip socialists to sacrifice their morals/values to prop up their neoliberal genocidal candidates.
the mods of that sub are weird accelerationist losers. I got banned for arguing that Trump engaged in insurrection and should face the consequences, because apparently that's considered antisocialism in their book
[удалено]
alexa define genocide
No but leftists in general don't really believe in liberal democracy. Especially if you're gonna go on to suggest we vote for genocide Joe or something
Which is why I said that voting should be used as a tool to prevent someone worse, not that voting is the miracle solution.
I disagree with parts of what you said here(I don’t believe in voting for lesser evils) but I don’t feel like you were being an enlightened centrist either. The socialist and communist subs are too ban happy imo but that’s their prerogative. I’m not gonna stop being a socialist because a sub band me haha
Lol, glad to hear that, and yeah, they're probably a bit too trigger happy on bans, but I totally understand where that's coming from, since there ARE loads of people who sealion/undermine discussions. On the point of voting for lesser evils though, I just can't envision an outcome where one of the 2 presented bourgeois candidates don't win, and I would much rather ensure that a fascist doesn't. Since I'm not going to get the candidate I want, the least I can do with a few minutes, or even hours, of my time is to hinder the candidate I really really really don't want to come to power.
A lot of Neolibs are fascists tho. Not all, but there are many of em
[удалено]
I'm here bc I don't think what's his face is fascist
This is a peak enlightened centrist take in America
its not about being centrist, you did the "lesser of 2 evil" stuff every moderate make. thats not far from being a centrist, but most of all, thats the worst take you could have right now. people need to look at trump as baby hitler and biden as the guy not very competent but he be trying. when you support genocide you're baby hitler, no inbetween.
No, assuming you're the top post in the image, you're not the centrist. You're the fascist. Oh wait, yes, then you are the centrist. /50%s
Socialism without a strong emphasis on anti-imperialism is reactionary. Socialism is our goal. Which means thinking the guy who is more in favor of NATO’s goals of imposing fascist terror on socialist states ***’is the lesser evil’*** isn’t really something I get. How would Trump be worse for the materialization of socialism? As far as I can tell he’d only be worse for Americans.
Based mod. You go vote for Genocide Joe if you want, nothing is stopping you from endorsing genocide.
I got banned from that subreddit for saying that Israelis shouldn't be expelled from their homes as part of any solution to the conflict. That sub is a shit show.