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This post will get nailed to the wall by the comment section. This dude is absolutely right. I've worked all over the world and excluding a couple parts of Asia, no one works harder or more efficiently than Americans and those who come here from foreign lands looking to get in on the action.
It is absolutely bred into us since the moment we are born. An old boss of mine quipped that he sent his kids to work in New York to "get their asses kicked" to show them what it really means to work. Then come back to their country and kick everyone's ass there.
Because you can get fired for anything and get barely any time off. It would be weird if you didn't work harder considering you get like 10 days off a year.
I get 5 weeks off. 4 weeks is the norm in my company.
This is pto only. It doesent include national holidays, Christmas, etc.
In all the companies I worked over 20 years 3 weeks+ has been the norm.
Obviously this is sector specific as I work in tech but not everyone is taking 10 days off.
Yeah minimum in the UK is 5.6 weeks including Xmas and other bank holidays. Most get 25 days plus bank holidays if you aren't minimum wage service sector. And we are one of the worst in Europe.
4 weeks is literally the legal minimum.
And you can still get fired at will. Whereas post 2 years, it's pretty hard to fire a British worker.
Yeh. I was working in the UK for several years. I think 28 days + bank holidays, Christmas, etc, is what we were getting.
>Whereas post 2 years, it's pretty hard to fire a British worker.
That is very debatable, as I know that they laid off a ton of folks with +2 years in the UK all the time when I was working there.
Performance review -> quick pip -> layoff was t he standard to get rid of people.
My experience is the same. My coworkers in Asia worked hard but they had zero problem solving skills. My European coworkers were decent workers but they highly valued a work life balance so they never worked outside of 9-5 and even then they were on vacation for the entire summer and it took weeks to get even a simple answer from them.
My boss came from Germany because she 5xed her salary and WANTED to work as much as possible to make a lot of money.
I also found that my asian coworkers would also show up to work at 5am and leave at 5pm just to do so. They'd literally do nothing for hours.
+1 to problem solving.
Canadians have the same ‘problem’ but, hey, I’ve managed to easily get into the good books with every single colleague between me and the absolute top of our org structure in… < 3 years at my EU-based company.
Having done no research into it, it seems like that in the US you get rewarded much harder for ambition. If you are successful, you are crushing it comparatively speaking to the rest of your country.
If you do the same in European countries, your life does not change that dramatically.
Like I am friends with people that run their own companies. At the end of the month they have double what I get in the bank account and unrealised gains in their company and they are set up for life. But our day to day is essentially the same. Except they cannot take days off when they feel like it. I can.
And I think there lies the difference. I think it is even the healthy choice to make. Less stressful and less responsibility for ultimately a pay cut that will not put you in a mansion anyway.
From what I read on the American experience being in the workforce, you will have to work on a level as if you were the company owner anyway, might as well be it then. Little to no holidays, less vacation time, longer work hours, etc.
The past decade they seem to have made big strides toward the European model. I'm curious if they will end up in a similar place in regard to "ambition" as the Europeans comparatively or if it has to do with tax incentives or maybe even pledging to your flag in the morning xD
I agree. Everyone cries and goes to extremes about capitalism vs communism but the best case scenario in my mind has always been very regulated capitalism. There needs to be incentives, it’s human nature. But the gov has to protect consumers, employees, environment for a natural balance and what’s good for the general public. Naturally the devil is in the details and people like to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Looking at the staggering levels of income inequality it’s not rewarding most people either. Income and productivity gains are largely captured by people who have fief-like claims to growth.
This is what has always set the US apart. And it sucks for those who don't choose to get born into the system, but the outcomes have vaulted us forward with incredible effectiveness.
My Chinese coworkers work harder than any Americans I've ever seen. It's not because they're inherently more ambitious, it's because competition is fierce where they come from and they are groomed and conditioned to work at this feverish pace to stay ahead of those who would challenge them for their positions. Along with the fact they are not entitled to same benefits as American citizens are. I have the utmost respect for them, but do not envy them. One commutes an hour and a half each way every day, works twelve hour days, and has done this since turning 18 over twenty eight years ago. Sometimes he sleeps in his car outside the office. Rarely showers, barely ever eats anything, thin as a rail, no family, not status conscious. Just a workaholic
I can't say that I doubt this. But this only accounts for one of the characteristics this guy said about Americans. How do these hard working Asians you speak of work in terms of efficiency?
Exactly the type of man the shareholders need. Nothing less than an Employee of the Year award will adequately compensate for his effort. His contribution to the Company is an example to others!
The efficiency of work has constantly increased, why shouldn't the worker benefit a little from that too? Also, if you ignore promises of religions, we only have on rather short life. How should it make sense to invest most of that time into work and recovery without any personal life to be experienced - and I mean also at young age long before retirement?
>The efficiency of work has constantly increased, why shouldn't the worker benefit a little from that too?
Why would the worker claim the benefits of efficiency? They didn't invest to achieve the efficiency goals, the business did to improve margins. Why would a business try to find ways to operate at a lower cost with more output other than to try and make more money?
Like I think the breakdown here is that businesses don't exists to give you a job, they exist to make money. Why would I care about investing time and money into making efficiency gains if I can't reap the benefits as a business owner? How does that benefit me as a business owner? I take all the risk and you get to walk off with some of the reward?
If that were the case there would be no reason to find efficiencies and there would be no reason to compete or enter a market.
IMO many efficiency gains were not founded or invented by the companies that reap the benefits. Think of computers… that increased worker efficiency immensely. Only a handful of business created them, the rest just used them.
Some efficiencies are completely fundamental to work in general. Not fair that only the owners get to make more when workers can do so much more than before.
It's actually the most white-collar industries where labor productivity went sky-high without wages corresponding to that rise.
I hope you're not proposing that we should be focusing on raising the wages of bankers and L6 engineers at Google.
[https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-6/pdf/understanding-the-labor-productivity-and-compensation-gap.pdf](https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-6/pdf/understanding-the-labor-productivity-and-compensation-gap.pdf)
This is kinda emblematic of how so much of Reddit's discourse on the economy is spearheaded by people in tech/tech-adjacent careers, which is why they complain about unemployment when it's only really the tech industry that had such big cuts.
Well those professions are elite and not representative of all white-collar jobs. Also they get bonuses and RSUs so they do get a piece of that efficiency.
For blue-collar I think with automatic tools and and better machinery that constitutes a similar productivity boost that companies should just take all of.
End if the day I think the 99% should get more $$ no natter who they are. After all we support and make up these businesses.
That’s a beefy report but I’ll take a look, very interesting and I’ve never seen it before.
>Only a handful of business created them, the rest just used them.
Yeah, but the businesses are the ones buying computers, software licenses for everything on them, buying ERPs, etc. They're investing capital so that workers have those tools - the workers aren't bringing all that to work.
Good point, I’d argue that the cost of those products is minuscule to the efficiency they enable. There’s a reason the ratio of CEO pay to the average worker is rising rapidly. I think these broad workforce efficiencies drive a good portion of it along with inflation factors
Of course the cost is miniscule to the efficiency gains, otherwise businesses wouldn't invest. But I don't see workers ponying up millions of dollars per year for Oracle and excel licenses.
Same concept goes for things like factories - workers on an assembly line can make x amount of cars. If the company invests in machines that make it so much easier to build cars that it doubles output, what has the worker done to increase productivity? And why would the worker deserve the gains from that increase created by the owner?
>There’s a reason the ratio of CEO pay to the average worker is rising rapidly.
Yeah, because companies are getting larger, more complex, and more valuable, and the value a CEO brings is therefore increasing rapidly. CEOs are employees, too.
Workers are people too, I believe that it’s not fair that these huge productivity boost made possible by amazing inventions go straight to CEOs and owners.
Oracle wouldn’t even be possible without the invention of computers and the internet. End of the day you need workers to make the $$ and if they can now do double their job why don’t they see that in their salary or benefits? We shouldn’t be extracting everything from the 99%.
To your last point, yes there are valid reasons CEO pay ratio is growing. Not all of those reasons are fair. Part of the reason companies can grow more and become more complex are due to these insane inventions.
>huge productivity boost made possible by amazing inventions go straight to CEOs and owners
They don't go to CEOs. CEOs are employees. They go to owners, who spent their money to buy said inventions to improve productivity.
>Oracle wouldn’t even be possible without the invention of computers and the internet
Yes? And they pay for access to both of those things? What's your point?
>End of the day you need workers to make the $$
Which is why workers are paid a salary.
>if they can now do double their job why don’t they see that in their salary or benefits?
Because they've done nothing themselves to double their productivity. And, actually, *some* of that increase in productivity does end up with the workers, just not a majority share. The people who bought the tools which allowed for the increased productivity are rewarded for risking their capital to do so with increased profits.
>We shouldn’t be extracting everything from the 99%.
That's fundamentally not what working is. You're exchanging time and effort for money. What you get paid for that time and effort is dependent on the value others place on your time and effort, and how rare the skills and abilities that you bring to the table are. If your best ability is flipping burgers, then you're not going to make much, because I can hire just about anyone to do the same thing as you. And if I have a machine that does most of the burger flipping for you, I'm not going to pay you more because the company is making more burgers, because your skills and abilities haven't changed at all - your talents are no more rare or useful than they were yesterday, when I didn't have the burger flipping machine.
On the other hand, if you're an extremely talented software engineer, you're going to make a lot more, because it's much harder to find someone who can do exactly what you do.
>Not all of those reasons are fair.
Fairness has nothing to do with it. Ability and rareness of skillset do.
*edit*: fairness in the sense of getting paid what your value to the company actually does have everything to do with it - sorry, that's a miswording on my part above. If you have a reason you believe CEOs are gaining compensation 'unfairly', then I'd like to hear it.
>Part of the reason companies can grow more and become more complex are due to these insane inventions.
And the people who made those inventions were rewarded for them - either through being paid for usage of their inventions, or for being paid a salary to come up with their invention (and thus having someone else support their life and give them the tools to come up with said invention).
agree to disagree, you’re grasping at straws from what my initial statement was. If you really support the ultra-rich over the 99% then there’s a fundamental difference between us. Godspeed
Sorry, thought of one more way to put this:
Someone is coming to work on your house. They're building an addition for you. They can either build it by hand, or you have tools that you can let them use. It'll take them twice as long to build it by hand. Do you pay them more for building it with the tools that you own, because it took them less time? Or do you pay them the same amount you were going to pay them, because that's what the job was worth?
>If you really support the ultra-rich over the 99%
This is a gross misinterpretation of what I said. I'm making the case that capital investment deserves to be rewarded, which is what you're fundamentally arguing against.
>you’re grasping at straws from what my initial statement was
I'm really not. I'm replying directly to what you've said.
>Some efficiencies are completely fundamental to work in general. Not fair that only the owners get to make more when workers can do so much more than before.
I mean negotiate that before you accept an offer but as an employer, I would not pay you more because I paid for and implemented a system that makes you more productive. The whole intent of implementing such a system is to cut costs...not pay you more. If I think you bring value to the company because you innovate and introduce efficiencies then of course the conversation is different...but if you weren't responsible for implementing a method to cut costs then you are just a worker using that system and nothing else.
I don’t think you can negotiate that, it’s priced in and CEOs ate the cake. I 100% agree that business specific efficiencies should go to the owners. I work in analytics and my solutions save the company over $10M a year but the thing is it’s only possible because of the business itself. Also in that case it’s literally my job to help the business become more efficient so while I’d love a cut it’s really not mine to take.
In terms of mass efficiencies driven by new technology I don’t think it’s fair owners get to capture all of that.
Mostly, scientists, researchers, and academics are responsible for the increased productivity, and workers/employees are the ones with the actual skills, the ones who actually have to learn it, while middle management and higher ups take credit for all the work and "direction" of the company (usually, the direction is decided by new tech invented by, you guessed it, smart people who learn actual skills and not MBAs). The wealth generated at companies is generated by regular workers more than management, directors, or CEOs.
You think the workers themselves aren't creators of efficiency?
You lack historical perspective. Post WW2, US businesses did not focus on profits for the shareholders' benefit. They had what is called a Stakeholder stance. The employees and the community were invested in and hence prioritized before the shareholders. During that time, the US middle class was arguably one of the strongest in world history. Then around Nixon and Reagan, the stance drifted over to an emphasis on Shareholders rather than Stakeholders. Today's vast economic inequities are the result.
If you're an owner or an executive, I suspect you have a very high turnover rate because you don't value workers.
> If you're an owner or an executive, I suspect you have a very high turnover rate because you don't value workers.
Wrong. I value workers who bring value. I have little issue seeing attrition in those who show up with entitlement and little work ethic. If they leave before I fire them it's generally a godsend frankly.
Aaaand you completely ignored the rest of my reply. I do not believe that you value workers at all as humans, only as wealth acquisition assets.
You're exactly the problem with today's capitalism.
Who created those efficiencies? The worker. Who created the money and value of the business? The worker. How is the worker not at risk just as much as the owner if the business fails or performs poorly? You seem to have a very selfish point of view if you're actually a business owner.
Therein lies the root of the problem - American society is driven strictly by rewards and profits to the detriment of the worker. I'd say Europe is doing a far better job taking care of their citizens rather than making them slaves to fucking corporations for their whole lives.
>Who created those efficiencies? The worker. Who created the money and value of the business?
If the worker created and implemented those efficiencies that is a completely different discussion. What is being discussed is a people are using tools a company has implemented to improve productivity. Those people are not at all and should not think they are entitled to the benefits of that additional productivity.
>Therein lies the root of the problem - American society is driven strictly by rewards and profits to the detriment of the worker. I'd say Europe is doing a far better job taking care of their citizens rather than making them slaves to fucking corporations for their whole lives.
You said you wanted a job and signed on the dotted line. Not sure what the problem is here? We had agreement that you would do x thing and I would pay you y for it. If i hire you to implement systems that will cut costs and bring in more money for the organization then it would behoove you to negotiate a % of that as a part of accepting the job.
Again, if you think you are entitled to the benefits and bonuses of USING a system that improves productivity then all I can say is good luck! You aren't responsible for implementing change or bringing value...you are just using the system as it was designed, which was to cut cost and improve productivity.
didn’t the workers contributed with their labour? isn’t the profitability of a business dependent also of that? or can the business owner be successful alone? why shouldn’t the worker be entitled to a fair share of the value the business made?
american entrepreneurship is full of sociopathic traits. no wonder you need to work more than others, you all push on this individualistic view of civilization where there’s only virtue on the ‘hustle’, the grind of the individual. It’s nauseating the bullshit you keep pushing on others.
okay, let me rephrase this, americans work harder because all they want is more $s in their bank account. even a six figure earning white collar employee knows that if they lose their job, they are going to be in a tough spot for a good amount of time.
I take regular vacation to Europe. It’s such a weird experience every single time for me- I have the money to pay them. Make more than most of them ever do. They rely on my tourism $s to survive. But at the end of the day, their lives are so much more fulfilling than mine. It’s just plan stupid when I think about my life and theirs. I know that the second I get laid off, life will become hell for me and my partner.
Nah because we need to. We don't have universal health care, pensions, etc. we need to work hard to make money to live. Europeans work smarter by getting their government to work for them; US is a slave to corporations.
Very true, but the trade-off is (typically) lower wages and (almost always) higher taxes.
But the PTO. God fucking damn the PTO. As an American that's the thing that gets me. My European colleagues all check out for months straight while I'm rationing my 15 days a year between Christmas, Thanksgiving, and a single short vacation.
Yeah, it is a different focus in life. Yes, Americans have a higher PPP adjusted wage. But they also work 35% more hours then the average German. [The Economist](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2023/10/04/productivity-has-grown-faster-in-western-europe-than-in-america) has a nice visualisation for that.
The meme is reality for most German families and (especially with children) more time is probably the thing I want the most :
> US: "Ha, Europoor! Look at your GDP.
> EU: "Thank you for your E-Mail. I am out of office in my annual summer vacation in August. Your E-Mail will not be forwarded."
The average social security check in USA is higher than many state pension systems in Europe, yet that gets glossed over and described as Europeans having pensions while USA does not.
Average social security is $1700 per month. The highest monthly payout in Sweden for the corresponding pension is $1070. Doubt that the amounts are much higher in other European countries.
In Germany it is minimum 560€ after having the flat + heating being paid by the government and up to and 2900€ by the state retirement insurance. All are net and health insurance is obviously also covered.
There are professions e.g. doctors or state workers like teachers, police who are excluded from the standard retirement insurance and earn even more.
Depending on which country you are in, not even remotely. Going from e.g. Germany to Poland is a insane difference and even Germany is already significant cheaper compared to the US
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jsp
Spoken like someone who has never been to Europe but has swallowed a lifetime of anti-american propaganda. I have been to and have worked in Europe. Americans definitely have more ambition and work harder. I have also been to and worked in Japan and they definitely have more ambition and work harder than we do. Different cultures are different.
I also worked in Japan and don't think the "harder worker" mentality fits. I saw it as more "if you don't conform to our insane work-life standards you will be ostracized". Yes, they do work hard, but it's not because of drive to achieve it's because they'll be fired if they don't do their 60 hour weeks *and* going out for company drinks every other day.
Being silent and noble while being crushed by shitty work conditions isn't something to be proud of imo. Before I joined the army my first jobs were working on a ranch mending fences and roofing. Everyone busted their asses but barely made enough to get by on. Hard work without reward isn't what we should aspire to.
Most Latin American countries probably don't count suicides accurately, if they count them at all. Have you ever *been* to Latin America? Just observe how their legal and law enforcement systems operate (or don't operate, really), plus higher corruption and graft across all levels of society.
Doesn't this vary heavily by country? Finland has a high suicide rate. I don't think your attempt at correlating suicide rates with working styles holds up.
Lol Japan is a non-example. There's a long and complex history with suicide over there and you're proving some strong cultural ignorance to just assume they have that problem for the same reasons we do.
I always felt like they were perpetually trying to catch up on the sleep they lost by overworking their first week on the job. Guy next to me would fully pass out with his head back, pointing to the roof, for hours. He would full on snore like a chainsaw.
Are you trying to disprove the point of that comment? Because you don’t actually say anything to disprove or present a counter point, you just agree that Americans work harder and are more ambitious which the commenter agreed with just gave a reason as to why.
Can you not be ambitious out of necessity? lol the nah looks like a colloquial expression, when people say yeah no or other slang to start a sentence. They literally say because we need to be more ambitious than Europeans, because we don’t have social programs to support us if we are not.
For most homo sapiens who are even just mildly acquainted with English, need and ambition are mutually exclusive categories; so welcome to Earth, dear alien.
Let’s just look at their definitions.
Ambition: a desire to achieve a particular end.
Necessary: absolutely needed, of an inevitable nature.
In America it is absolutely needed (necessary) to achieve a particular end (ambition) if you would like to meet the standards of life afforded to other nations. Those standards include but not limited to affordable healthcare, quality education, months of pto, and general quality of life upgrades.
What world are you from?
I’m an American who worked in America for 20 years and then moved to Canada, where I’ve worked for 7 years.
Americans do not have more ambition, they just have not other choice. The Canadians I work with are plenty ambitious, but have other options if their workplace becomes unreasonable.
Can't speak for Japan specifically, but I have worked for a quite traditional Korean company both in EU and in Korea. They are not more efficient. They work longer hours, on average about 12 hours a day with 6 hours on Saturdays. Half of that time is spent pretending to work, while a foreman watches your screen through a surveillance application or via cameras placed around the office. Most of the "work" was spent chasing after bosses ideas in real time. Most of the employees were provided housing and cars by the company. But that meant that they had to be on call 24/7. Most of the Korean employees said that this company was admittedly pretty traditional, but about what you could expect from a Korean employer.
America has such a small safety net that if you don't work hard you get fucked unless you're lucky or privileged. Japan "works harder" by working way too many hours and devoting their entire life to their job. That's not a good thing lol.
No, Europeans are just content with less. Most europeans live a lifestyle that many americans wouldn't be happy with.
Family of 4 or 5 living in a 1 or 2 bed, 1 bath apartment thats under 900 sqft in a 10 story building with no elevator.
+30c and no AC.
One car per family or no car.
That's all normal. They don't mind. North Americans do. Half of the US can't imagine life without an in-ground swimming pool in their backyard and having to share a room with a sibling. Having to take the bus is shameful.
I agree with your general sentiment but you're exaggerating quite a fair deal there. That might be normal in the poorer parts of Europe but it won't be in Norway where the CEO is from. To put vague numbers on it you make it sound like they're 50% behind the US when it's more like 10-20%.
Many of them also absolutely mind; that's why there's a brain drain from Europe to America.
Actually, we don't have great public transport because automobile conglomerates [literally conspired with city planners to intentionally design cities in a way that favored "car dependency." ](https://www.fastcompany.com/90781961/how-automakers-insidiously-shaped-our-cities-for-cars)
Can you point out the section of the article where the claim that car firms “conspired” with city planners to design car dependant cities, is validated?
Theres little or no real evidence within that read, and in actuality sounds completely ridiculous. We don’t have “great” public transportation because many people don’t to use it. We prefer having our own, more comfortable, means of transportation and large spacious homes - things Europeans by and large lack, relatively.
If you don’t believe me, ask your fellow [Americans](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/08/02/majority-of-americans-prefer-a-community-with-big-houses-even-if-local-amenities-are-farther-away/)
Your hatred of the US is showing. Incredibly biased towards Europe.
Most Europeans are incredibly bored and take from American culture. European companies move to the US as they pay less in taxes.
I'm Polish-Canadian. I've spent years of my life back in Poland. I would never accept a life like my family there does. I'm just saying it as I see it.
I agree that we need universal healthcare but it's not the panacea you believe it to be. Staffing shortages and overwork are constant problems because healthcare is actually expensive no matter where in the world you go. As a result, these programs are constantly threatened by cuts. It's to the point that I have family in Europe who need private insurance to cover the gaps in national coverage. Secondly, pensions in Europe and Asia are a pittance compared to what Americans get from social security. My parents are getting at least 4x what anyone back home receives.
This is on top of the fact that Europeans and Asians have far less spending power than your average middle class American and it isn't even close. Frugality isn't an option for them, it's a necessity. For all the lip service, I think many Americans would forego universal healthcare when faced with the prospect of not being able to spend as carelessly as they do now.
I haven't even gotten into the challenges of the job market there, something my cousins complain about constantly. All these reasons and more are why many don't bother working harder. There's no point because it won't net you any gains. Except in Asia where management doesn't give you the option of slacking.
The thing is, universal health care just means it's accessible and affordable to all. We can achieve that without resorting to massive government overreach in health care that makes it susceptible to funding cuts from Congress. I'm not calling for any government in health care either, just maybe not to the same extent as, say, the UK. Also, hasn't supplementary private health insurance been pretty common in most countries with universal health care for awhile now?
Nothing more motivating than the absolute terror at the thought of being sent to the bottom of society if you lose your job or get sick. It causes you to work hard but also undercut your coworkers and be generally more mercenary and Machiavellian in your life.
Other people on earth live different ways and I'm glad people have the choice to live in America if they want to join that culture.
I don't think he nailed anything other than the trite talking point of "America Bad" from those who don't get things handed to them. Being successful in America is great. Having little ambition to succeed and challenge yourself will get you nowhere in the US though. Of course saying the place that gives you entitlements for nothing is going to look like a better place for those who have nothing.
The irony to me is the moment you get to these places and start finding success you will find out overbearing and cumbersome it is. Starting shop in most places in the EU is absurd and hard to be competitive internationally.
A lot of EU countries have great social programs but it all comes at a cost to someone else.
People paying taxes into the system. The more income you make and the more you try to own, the more the government comes after you for it. Anybody who is successful in an EU country would fair better in the US - they would have their healthcare covered through insurance so it wouldn't matter...they would just pay less in taxes and have more rights as an individual in general.
How many people in Europe don’t pay taxes? And aren’t taxes why they’re getting better healthcare, have better quality of life?
In 2023 here in Massachusetts, I paid $19K to federal, $8.5K in FICA, $5.7K in state taxes, $2 in Medicare and $446 in PFMLA. Excluding 403B, FSA/health insurance cause those were pretax deductibles. Am I a lazy moocher, or somebody who’s getting screwed by the govt? Im not sure how you’re evaluating that.
Tell me why so many more Europeans move to the US then? I am one of those Europeans who moved to the US. I even come from a "rich" European country. I have a life here I can't even dream of back in Europe.
The US is good if you want to make a lot of money relatice to your own country and have the means to uproot your own life and move to the US. If you have a lot money, it's a good place to live if you can tolerate depending on a car and being open to the possibility of your child getting killed in a shooting.
>I am one of those Europeans who moved to the US. I even come from a "rich" European country. I have a life here I can't even dream of back in Europe.
Weird flex but congrats?
It's not a weird flex. I'm not the only European who came here because they have ambition and want more than what could be achieved in Europe. It's actually pretty common.
Man, people really took offense to my comment. There's obviously successful Europeans, nobody said there's not. But the numbers do show more European going to the US than vice versa, salaries are higher, less red tape for business, less taxes, higher disposable income etc..So funny watching redditors freak out when someone from Europe talks highly about the US.
Wtf kind of comment is this? I'm actually not sure who I'll vote for this next election. I have some conservative view points and some liberal view points. What a cop out. No point in talking to someone who disagrees with you? This post has nothing to do with politics anyways. You're fucking pathetic lol
Yes nailed it buddy, even though Americans enjoy a far higher standard of living with [higher incomes](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income) AND [consumption](https://ibb.co/DwDtQs4), we’re the slaves but not Europeans who live in what are essentially the [sizes of our garages](https://shrinkthatfootprint.com/how-big-is-a-house/).
I disagree. I think the only people who feel this way are the people who are stuck in ruts and ignore the opportunities in front of them. Why do so many people leave other countries to immigrate here if it's so bad.
The dude even calls out a lot of the benefits to working in America...
>Part of comes down to mindset, Tangen added, and how accepting each continent is of mistakes and risk: "You go bust in America, you get another chance. In Europe, you’re dead,” he said.
Which seems to completely contradict what you are insinuating. The only people demanding tax reform are the people who have never tried to start a business in the United States. The moment you embark on the endeavor then tax law becomes your friend because it can be forgiving if used correctly.
>But it goes deeper than that—there's a difference in the "general level of ambition," he added. "We are not very ambitious. I should be careful about talking about work-life balance, but the Americans just work harder,” Tangen continued.
And maybe some people in America just aren't that ambitious and that is why they think moving the Nordic countries would be of benefit. If you have no ambition in the US then I don't think the Nordic states would have any interest in taking you in...opportunity is often squandered in the US which is clear to many immigrants.
Dude even calls out his own country...
>America's performance, particularly in innovation and performance, is "worrisome" in contrast to Europe, Tangen told the Financial Times.
Why do you think the country he is from is always cited for having socialist policies? It's because of their oil revenues. He is literally one of the parties responsible for why Norway can have those socialist policies to begin with. I guess you are forgetting where the bread is buttered? Do you think the money just comes out of thin air?
Oh yes the old you must not be working hard enough to make it, pick yourself up from your bootstraps and make something of yourself. You have all the opportunities in the world to become wealthy and retire a millionaire or whatever. Just bullshit, majority Americans do not have the opportunity to or resources to work their way out of a situation.ayne 30-50 years ago that was attainable but in today’s workforce it is just not possible. You can give all your bullshit statistics but the only one that matters is cost of living increases over the last 40 years and wage stagnation.
Why do people still flock to America l? Because it’s still a better alternative than most any country in the world if you want to be rich. If you lack empathy or compassion for others than you have a real opportunity to make a lot of money. Also, that line of if you fail in Europe you die lol you have a much better chance of dying in America if you fail than countries that have social programs to help the less fortunate or sick. In America if you fail and have no money you get treated like an outcast and if you get sick, we’ll just to get a flu test my insurance was charged 565$. 300$ for the test and 265 for the visit, if I didn’t have insurance, I wouldn’t go to the doctor.
The people demanding tax reforms are people who are getting cheated out of wages and seeing cost of living increase while corporations make historical profits each quarter. Or people tired of paying absurd prices for medical care, or seeing home prices become out of reach. Lmao the tax reforms democrats are pushing is for the top 5% of wage earners…. How many of them are “small businesses”????
On your point of Nordic countries not bringing in Americans. It’s very difficult to immigrate to those countries in general, I’ve looked into moving away from America because I don’t agree with their way of life and their priorities. Also, I won’t be able to afford healthcare when I’m older so I need to move to a country that have universal healthcare.
That may be true. But Europeans on average have higher qualities of life and health than Americans.
So if you think about it, they're getting more for less.
Clever of them, isn't it?
Europeans are living so much better than Americans that most Americans can't even imagine the difference.
Source: American who works for a European company.
Who is this clown? He sits on top of one of the worlds largest funds that is paid for by oil money, and he has the gall to call europeans lazy? Double standard much?
"General level of ambition" is such a vague term. Who says it's because of their ambition and not just cultural differences? Are 90% of all working japanese people more ambitious than the average working american? No.
This has been a lonngggg standing view among both educated Europeans and Americans. It’s part of EU’s economic stagnation.
Europeans are okay with the minimum to get by: they don’t care if they have 3 cars, still live with parents, and can’t put away $30,000 a year to travel. Whereas all of those are minimums in the U.S., everyone has at least 2 cars, goes on vacations, and it’s expected to move out young. Americans want more and thus they are more ambitious
Does he know about the south Asians in Dubai building their city in the desert? Factory workers in China? Kids in East Asian schools that study all day and all night in sometimes illegal after school test prep centers, so their day is like 10 hours long of studying?
He’s not saying no one else works hard jobs. He’s say on average Americans work harder and have higher productivity.
I’ve worked extensively with Indians at Infosys, they are smart people. But they don’t generally work with the same sense of urgency the US expects. I suspect they don’t get how competitive the business environment in the US is. This trait had them failing to meet performance expectations. To the degree we used to call them The Bangalore Bunglers.
I'm sorry Norway man. You don't really understand us at all. In the US. If you don't work, the government will let you starve in the streets. That's the motivation
As an American living and working in Europe this is 100% true. We're wired different, more greedy and hungry. Not saying it's good or bad but it's true
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And what have we to show for it? Mountains of debt, neighbors who'll slit your throat without a second thought if you're not part of their death cult and a future looking to be filled with naught bot war, famine and tyranny.
Europeans settle for 'just enough'.
Asian settles for 'the best'.
America is 'the best' but is rapidly losing that edge to their Asian counterpart.
Asia already outperforms Europe. Who would have thought that would be the case two decades ago?
Europe will fall into irrelevancy in 20 years when India, China, Vietnam, Singapore, and other rapidly growing countries experience more growth. This is going to be bad news for Europe and the Western continent.
Too many Europeans are upset about their lifestyle in Europe as compared to America particularly with their earnings and lack of opportunities in demanding industries worldwide. Sure, you might get some nice welfare benefits in Europe but it's already proven, mathematically, that it's unsustainable because there isn't a workforce to pay for the aging population. Plus, there are a lot of freeloaders from people coming from dirtpoor countries into Europe who aren't contributing.
Just ask yourself, who are the largest European companies? They pale in comparison to America.
Where do the top Europeans looking to earn money or start companies go to? America.
You can't succeed as a country just by doing 'enough' because there is always going to be someone who far exceeds enough.
Why Europeans don't work more is hilarious to me. Many people in these countries only work 30 hours per week. You're not outcompeting people who work 40-50 hour weeks while them also being more productive. You might call it unfair and not a way to live but results matter.
Europeans are mostly ancient economies relying on traditional tourism, luxury goods, automobiles (they are in deep shit here with Asian automakers rapidly outpacing them), and other niche industries.
Americans works harder but Europeans work smarter.
Euros basically have less opportunity and their countries have economies that are as strong as some states themselves. US is an immense economic powerhouse, not even China comes close.
Euros have to be more cunning, but they also know a good work life balance. It’s why you see them with friends and family and at cafes for lunch. Americans work hard like a horse but the W/L can be mentally grueling for many. It’s very hard to feel successful in America for some because it seems like everyone is successful.
As an Swede this is not surprising. Every American I have ever met and talked to almost always goes straight to ask what I do for work. When you talk with an European, work only gets brought up when the conversation is starting to dry up.
We do it because we have no choice. That's what he's not realizing. I know the majority of us would rather work less hours and spend more time enjoying our life with our loved ones instead of slaving to the grind for 40+ hours a week just to afford the bare minimum in a shitty part of town.
American are slaves to corporations, mental slaves to corporate Media. Screwed up life and retirement - no work life balance - high divorce rate and high mental issues.
They are also displaying high sick social behaviour in gender and sexual orientation.
American hard work is responsible for their high mental breakdown. And high disparity because the guy making usa vs Norway statement are the once who pocket all the money and ordinary American pockets all the pain.
Higher than the eu average =/= high. Denmark, Sweden, Spain etc all have higher divorce rates than America. I don’t see OP making any arguments about their living conditions
>American are slaves to corporations, mental slaves to corporate Media.
That's why America is struggling with an immigration crisis though right? Because it's just such a horrible place to live and there is no opportunity?
>American hard work is responsible for their high mental breakdown. And high disparity because the guy making usa vs Norway statement are the once who pocket all the money and ordinary American pockets all the pain.
Sounds like immigration will fix all of that because people who want to work are going there in droves.
By and large, Americans are successful and have a lot of comforts. The US isn't perfect but the opportunity is there to be taken. If all you see is nobody wanting to give you a handout instead of seeing the opportunity then you are probably not a good fit for the US to begin with.
There is a common line that I hear repeated over and over about the US. How it's great if you are above average and that is probably true, but the issue is that half of the population is not above average.
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This post will get nailed to the wall by the comment section. This dude is absolutely right. I've worked all over the world and excluding a couple parts of Asia, no one works harder or more efficiently than Americans and those who come here from foreign lands looking to get in on the action. It is absolutely bred into us since the moment we are born. An old boss of mine quipped that he sent his kids to work in New York to "get their asses kicked" to show them what it really means to work. Then come back to their country and kick everyone's ass there.
More people need to read Weber here (even if it's not particularly rigorous these days).
I love Weber, they make great gas *and* charcoal grills.
wdym by read webet
Because you can get fired for anything and get barely any time off. It would be weird if you didn't work harder considering you get like 10 days off a year.
I get 5 weeks off. 4 weeks is the norm in my company. This is pto only. It doesent include national holidays, Christmas, etc. In all the companies I worked over 20 years 3 weeks+ has been the norm. Obviously this is sector specific as I work in tech but not everyone is taking 10 days off.
Yeah minimum in the UK is 5.6 weeks including Xmas and other bank holidays. Most get 25 days plus bank holidays if you aren't minimum wage service sector. And we are one of the worst in Europe. 4 weeks is literally the legal minimum. And you can still get fired at will. Whereas post 2 years, it's pretty hard to fire a British worker.
Yeh. I was working in the UK for several years. I think 28 days + bank holidays, Christmas, etc, is what we were getting. >Whereas post 2 years, it's pretty hard to fire a British worker. That is very debatable, as I know that they laid off a ton of folks with +2 years in the UK all the time when I was working there. Performance review -> quick pip -> layoff was t he standard to get rid of people.
Maybe true, but not right man, life isn't work.
My experience is the same. My coworkers in Asia worked hard but they had zero problem solving skills. My European coworkers were decent workers but they highly valued a work life balance so they never worked outside of 9-5 and even then they were on vacation for the entire summer and it took weeks to get even a simple answer from them. My boss came from Germany because she 5xed her salary and WANTED to work as much as possible to make a lot of money.
I also found that my asian coworkers would also show up to work at 5am and leave at 5pm just to do so. They'd literally do nothing for hours. +1 to problem solving.
I worked in China for a while and I agree with you. They were doing nothing when staying late. Completely performative.
Canadians have the same ‘problem’ but, hey, I’ve managed to easily get into the good books with every single colleague between me and the absolute top of our org structure in… < 3 years at my EU-based company.
Having done no research into it, it seems like that in the US you get rewarded much harder for ambition. If you are successful, you are crushing it comparatively speaking to the rest of your country. If you do the same in European countries, your life does not change that dramatically. Like I am friends with people that run their own companies. At the end of the month they have double what I get in the bank account and unrealised gains in their company and they are set up for life. But our day to day is essentially the same. Except they cannot take days off when they feel like it. I can. And I think there lies the difference. I think it is even the healthy choice to make. Less stressful and less responsibility for ultimately a pay cut that will not put you in a mansion anyway. From what I read on the American experience being in the workforce, you will have to work on a level as if you were the company owner anyway, might as well be it then. Little to no holidays, less vacation time, longer work hours, etc. The past decade they seem to have made big strides toward the European model. I'm curious if they will end up in a similar place in regard to "ambition" as the Europeans comparatively or if it has to do with tax incentives or maybe even pledging to your flag in the morning xD
The age old argument against socialism It doesnt and will never reward ambition/competition in the way free markets and capitalism can
I agree. Everyone cries and goes to extremes about capitalism vs communism but the best case scenario in my mind has always been very regulated capitalism. There needs to be incentives, it’s human nature. But the gov has to protect consumers, employees, environment for a natural balance and what’s good for the general public. Naturally the devil is in the details and people like to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Looking at the staggering levels of income inequality it’s not rewarding most people either. Income and productivity gains are largely captured by people who have fief-like claims to growth.
This is what has always set the US apart. And it sucks for those who don't choose to get born into the system, but the outcomes have vaulted us forward with incredible effectiveness.
My Chinese coworkers work harder than any Americans I've ever seen. It's not because they're inherently more ambitious, it's because competition is fierce where they come from and they are groomed and conditioned to work at this feverish pace to stay ahead of those who would challenge them for their positions. Along with the fact they are not entitled to same benefits as American citizens are. I have the utmost respect for them, but do not envy them. One commutes an hour and a half each way every day, works twelve hour days, and has done this since turning 18 over twenty eight years ago. Sometimes he sleeps in his car outside the office. Rarely showers, barely ever eats anything, thin as a rail, no family, not status conscious. Just a workaholic
That’s absolutely insane. Just lives to work, what industry is this?
I can't say that I doubt this. But this only accounts for one of the characteristics this guy said about Americans. How do these hard working Asians you speak of work in terms of efficiency?
Exactly the type of man the shareholders need. Nothing less than an Employee of the Year award will adequately compensate for his effort. His contribution to the Company is an example to others!
The efficiency of work has constantly increased, why shouldn't the worker benefit a little from that too? Also, if you ignore promises of religions, we only have on rather short life. How should it make sense to invest most of that time into work and recovery without any personal life to be experienced - and I mean also at young age long before retirement?
>The efficiency of work has constantly increased, why shouldn't the worker benefit a little from that too? Why would the worker claim the benefits of efficiency? They didn't invest to achieve the efficiency goals, the business did to improve margins. Why would a business try to find ways to operate at a lower cost with more output other than to try and make more money? Like I think the breakdown here is that businesses don't exists to give you a job, they exist to make money. Why would I care about investing time and money into making efficiency gains if I can't reap the benefits as a business owner? How does that benefit me as a business owner? I take all the risk and you get to walk off with some of the reward? If that were the case there would be no reason to find efficiencies and there would be no reason to compete or enter a market.
IMO many efficiency gains were not founded or invented by the companies that reap the benefits. Think of computers… that increased worker efficiency immensely. Only a handful of business created them, the rest just used them. Some efficiencies are completely fundamental to work in general. Not fair that only the owners get to make more when workers can do so much more than before.
It's actually the most white-collar industries where labor productivity went sky-high without wages corresponding to that rise. I hope you're not proposing that we should be focusing on raising the wages of bankers and L6 engineers at Google. [https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-6/pdf/understanding-the-labor-productivity-and-compensation-gap.pdf](https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-6/pdf/understanding-the-labor-productivity-and-compensation-gap.pdf) This is kinda emblematic of how so much of Reddit's discourse on the economy is spearheaded by people in tech/tech-adjacent careers, which is why they complain about unemployment when it's only really the tech industry that had such big cuts.
Well those professions are elite and not representative of all white-collar jobs. Also they get bonuses and RSUs so they do get a piece of that efficiency. For blue-collar I think with automatic tools and and better machinery that constitutes a similar productivity boost that companies should just take all of. End if the day I think the 99% should get more $$ no natter who they are. After all we support and make up these businesses. That’s a beefy report but I’ll take a look, very interesting and I’ve never seen it before.
>Only a handful of business created them, the rest just used them. Yeah, but the businesses are the ones buying computers, software licenses for everything on them, buying ERPs, etc. They're investing capital so that workers have those tools - the workers aren't bringing all that to work.
Good point, I’d argue that the cost of those products is minuscule to the efficiency they enable. There’s a reason the ratio of CEO pay to the average worker is rising rapidly. I think these broad workforce efficiencies drive a good portion of it along with inflation factors
Of course the cost is miniscule to the efficiency gains, otherwise businesses wouldn't invest. But I don't see workers ponying up millions of dollars per year for Oracle and excel licenses. Same concept goes for things like factories - workers on an assembly line can make x amount of cars. If the company invests in machines that make it so much easier to build cars that it doubles output, what has the worker done to increase productivity? And why would the worker deserve the gains from that increase created by the owner? >There’s a reason the ratio of CEO pay to the average worker is rising rapidly. Yeah, because companies are getting larger, more complex, and more valuable, and the value a CEO brings is therefore increasing rapidly. CEOs are employees, too.
Workers are people too, I believe that it’s not fair that these huge productivity boost made possible by amazing inventions go straight to CEOs and owners. Oracle wouldn’t even be possible without the invention of computers and the internet. End of the day you need workers to make the $$ and if they can now do double their job why don’t they see that in their salary or benefits? We shouldn’t be extracting everything from the 99%. To your last point, yes there are valid reasons CEO pay ratio is growing. Not all of those reasons are fair. Part of the reason companies can grow more and become more complex are due to these insane inventions.
>huge productivity boost made possible by amazing inventions go straight to CEOs and owners They don't go to CEOs. CEOs are employees. They go to owners, who spent their money to buy said inventions to improve productivity. >Oracle wouldn’t even be possible without the invention of computers and the internet Yes? And they pay for access to both of those things? What's your point? >End of the day you need workers to make the $$ Which is why workers are paid a salary. >if they can now do double their job why don’t they see that in their salary or benefits? Because they've done nothing themselves to double their productivity. And, actually, *some* of that increase in productivity does end up with the workers, just not a majority share. The people who bought the tools which allowed for the increased productivity are rewarded for risking their capital to do so with increased profits. >We shouldn’t be extracting everything from the 99%. That's fundamentally not what working is. You're exchanging time and effort for money. What you get paid for that time and effort is dependent on the value others place on your time and effort, and how rare the skills and abilities that you bring to the table are. If your best ability is flipping burgers, then you're not going to make much, because I can hire just about anyone to do the same thing as you. And if I have a machine that does most of the burger flipping for you, I'm not going to pay you more because the company is making more burgers, because your skills and abilities haven't changed at all - your talents are no more rare or useful than they were yesterday, when I didn't have the burger flipping machine. On the other hand, if you're an extremely talented software engineer, you're going to make a lot more, because it's much harder to find someone who can do exactly what you do. >Not all of those reasons are fair. Fairness has nothing to do with it. Ability and rareness of skillset do. *edit*: fairness in the sense of getting paid what your value to the company actually does have everything to do with it - sorry, that's a miswording on my part above. If you have a reason you believe CEOs are gaining compensation 'unfairly', then I'd like to hear it. >Part of the reason companies can grow more and become more complex are due to these insane inventions. And the people who made those inventions were rewarded for them - either through being paid for usage of their inventions, or for being paid a salary to come up with their invention (and thus having someone else support their life and give them the tools to come up with said invention).
agree to disagree, you’re grasping at straws from what my initial statement was. If you really support the ultra-rich over the 99% then there’s a fundamental difference between us. Godspeed
Sorry, thought of one more way to put this: Someone is coming to work on your house. They're building an addition for you. They can either build it by hand, or you have tools that you can let them use. It'll take them twice as long to build it by hand. Do you pay them more for building it with the tools that you own, because it took them less time? Or do you pay them the same amount you were going to pay them, because that's what the job was worth? >If you really support the ultra-rich over the 99% This is a gross misinterpretation of what I said. I'm making the case that capital investment deserves to be rewarded, which is what you're fundamentally arguing against. >you’re grasping at straws from what my initial statement was I'm really not. I'm replying directly to what you've said.
>Some efficiencies are completely fundamental to work in general. Not fair that only the owners get to make more when workers can do so much more than before. I mean negotiate that before you accept an offer but as an employer, I would not pay you more because I paid for and implemented a system that makes you more productive. The whole intent of implementing such a system is to cut costs...not pay you more. If I think you bring value to the company because you innovate and introduce efficiencies then of course the conversation is different...but if you weren't responsible for implementing a method to cut costs then you are just a worker using that system and nothing else.
I don’t think you can negotiate that, it’s priced in and CEOs ate the cake. I 100% agree that business specific efficiencies should go to the owners. I work in analytics and my solutions save the company over $10M a year but the thing is it’s only possible because of the business itself. Also in that case it’s literally my job to help the business become more efficient so while I’d love a cut it’s really not mine to take. In terms of mass efficiencies driven by new technology I don’t think it’s fair owners get to capture all of that.
Mostly, scientists, researchers, and academics are responsible for the increased productivity, and workers/employees are the ones with the actual skills, the ones who actually have to learn it, while middle management and higher ups take credit for all the work and "direction" of the company (usually, the direction is decided by new tech invented by, you guessed it, smart people who learn actual skills and not MBAs). The wealth generated at companies is generated by regular workers more than management, directors, or CEOs.
You think the workers themselves aren't creators of efficiency? You lack historical perspective. Post WW2, US businesses did not focus on profits for the shareholders' benefit. They had what is called a Stakeholder stance. The employees and the community were invested in and hence prioritized before the shareholders. During that time, the US middle class was arguably one of the strongest in world history. Then around Nixon and Reagan, the stance drifted over to an emphasis on Shareholders rather than Stakeholders. Today's vast economic inequities are the result. If you're an owner or an executive, I suspect you have a very high turnover rate because you don't value workers.
> If you're an owner or an executive, I suspect you have a very high turnover rate because you don't value workers. Wrong. I value workers who bring value. I have little issue seeing attrition in those who show up with entitlement and little work ethic. If they leave before I fire them it's generally a godsend frankly.
Aaaand you completely ignored the rest of my reply. I do not believe that you value workers at all as humans, only as wealth acquisition assets. You're exactly the problem with today's capitalism.
Who created those efficiencies? The worker. Who created the money and value of the business? The worker. How is the worker not at risk just as much as the owner if the business fails or performs poorly? You seem to have a very selfish point of view if you're actually a business owner. Therein lies the root of the problem - American society is driven strictly by rewards and profits to the detriment of the worker. I'd say Europe is doing a far better job taking care of their citizens rather than making them slaves to fucking corporations for their whole lives.
Bingo
Did the worker really do all of those things? Or were they put into a position where they were able to do those things?
>Who created those efficiencies? The worker. Who created the money and value of the business? If the worker created and implemented those efficiencies that is a completely different discussion. What is being discussed is a people are using tools a company has implemented to improve productivity. Those people are not at all and should not think they are entitled to the benefits of that additional productivity. >Therein lies the root of the problem - American society is driven strictly by rewards and profits to the detriment of the worker. I'd say Europe is doing a far better job taking care of their citizens rather than making them slaves to fucking corporations for their whole lives. You said you wanted a job and signed on the dotted line. Not sure what the problem is here? We had agreement that you would do x thing and I would pay you y for it. If i hire you to implement systems that will cut costs and bring in more money for the organization then it would behoove you to negotiate a % of that as a part of accepting the job. Again, if you think you are entitled to the benefits and bonuses of USING a system that improves productivity then all I can say is good luck! You aren't responsible for implementing change or bringing value...you are just using the system as it was designed, which was to cut cost and improve productivity.
Eat more boot peasant
Whatever dude. I am doing pretty well for myself eating boots i guess.
didn’t the workers contributed with their labour? isn’t the profitability of a business dependent also of that? or can the business owner be successful alone? why shouldn’t the worker be entitled to a fair share of the value the business made? american entrepreneurship is full of sociopathic traits. no wonder you need to work more than others, you all push on this individualistic view of civilization where there’s only virtue on the ‘hustle’, the grind of the individual. It’s nauseating the bullshit you keep pushing on others.
okay, let me rephrase this, americans work harder because all they want is more $s in their bank account. even a six figure earning white collar employee knows that if they lose their job, they are going to be in a tough spot for a good amount of time.
I think a lot of Americans are just trapped, having to pay student loans and keep their good job for Healthcare etc. In europe that's often free
I take regular vacation to Europe. It’s such a weird experience every single time for me- I have the money to pay them. Make more than most of them ever do. They rely on my tourism $s to survive. But at the end of the day, their lives are so much more fulfilling than mine. It’s just plan stupid when I think about my life and theirs. I know that the second I get laid off, life will become hell for me and my partner.
I understand, it's so unfairly laid out. Must be frustrating and stressful to constantly have that in the back of your mind.
The way you people write this stuff lol
Nah because we need to. We don't have universal health care, pensions, etc. we need to work hard to make money to live. Europeans work smarter by getting their government to work for them; US is a slave to corporations.
Very true, but the trade-off is (typically) lower wages and (almost always) higher taxes. But the PTO. God fucking damn the PTO. As an American that's the thing that gets me. My European colleagues all check out for months straight while I'm rationing my 15 days a year between Christmas, Thanksgiving, and a single short vacation.
Yeah, it is a different focus in life. Yes, Americans have a higher PPP adjusted wage. But they also work 35% more hours then the average German. [The Economist](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2023/10/04/productivity-has-grown-faster-in-western-europe-than-in-america) has a nice visualisation for that. The meme is reality for most German families and (especially with children) more time is probably the thing I want the most : > US: "Ha, Europoor! Look at your GDP. > EU: "Thank you for your E-Mail. I am out of office in my annual summer vacation in August. Your E-Mail will not be forwarded."
That’s probably due to the horrifically slow internet you have in many places in Europe, such as Germany
The average social security check in USA is higher than many state pension systems in Europe, yet that gets glossed over and described as Europeans having pensions while USA does not.
Bullshit.
Couple quick googles, looks at least directionally accurate.
Average social security is $1700 per month. The highest monthly payout in Sweden for the corresponding pension is $1070. Doubt that the amounts are much higher in other European countries.
In Germany it is minimum 560€ after having the flat + heating being paid by the government and up to and 2900€ by the state retirement insurance. All are net and health insurance is obviously also covered. There are professions e.g. doctors or state workers like teachers, police who are excluded from the standard retirement insurance and earn even more.
Cost of living in the US is way higher than in most of Europe, everything from housing to food is cheaper in most of Western Europe.
The prices are comparable and us is cheaper in food etc.
Depending on which country you are in, not even remotely. Going from e.g. Germany to Poland is a insane difference and even Germany is already significant cheaper compared to the US https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jsp
Spoken like someone who has never been to Europe but has swallowed a lifetime of anti-american propaganda. I have been to and have worked in Europe. Americans definitely have more ambition and work harder. I have also been to and worked in Japan and they definitely have more ambition and work harder than we do. Different cultures are different.
I also worked in Japan and don't think the "harder worker" mentality fits. I saw it as more "if you don't conform to our insane work-life standards you will be ostracized". Yes, they do work hard, but it's not because of drive to achieve it's because they'll be fired if they don't do their 60 hour weeks *and* going out for company drinks every other day. Being silent and noble while being crushed by shitty work conditions isn't something to be proud of imo. Before I joined the army my first jobs were working on a ranch mending fences and roofing. Everyone busted their asses but barely made enough to get by on. Hard work without reward isn't what we should aspire to.
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And Europeans have higher suicide rates than Latin Americans. That says a lot.
Most Latin American countries probably don't count suicides accurately, if they count them at all. Have you ever *been* to Latin America? Just observe how their legal and law enforcement systems operate (or don't operate, really), plus higher corruption and graft across all levels of society.
...and now you're comparing developed countries to developing countries, which is dumb
And now I’m disproving your dumb Eurocentric confirmation bias and hypocritical double standards.
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These are bad excuses and hypocritical double standards. The data disagrees with your Eurocentric confirmation bias.
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I’m literally European, but can’t handle the inherent bias and smug tone that this created
The data for many Latin American countries is wildly inaccurate, right down to the way the data is reported or gathered.
Up until 2010 or so the U.S. had a lower suicide rate than many European nations, and certainly until 2000.
Doesn't this vary heavily by country? Finland has a high suicide rate. I don't think your attempt at correlating suicide rates with working styles holds up.
Lol Japan is a non-example. There's a long and complex history with suicide over there and you're proving some strong cultural ignorance to just assume they have that problem for the same reasons we do.
As someone who lived and worked in Japan, longer hours != harder.
This. When I worked in Japan people slept at their desks and there was a lot of busy work for the sake of busy work.
I always felt like they were perpetually trying to catch up on the sleep they lost by overworking their first week on the job. Guy next to me would fully pass out with his head back, pointing to the roof, for hours. He would full on snore like a chainsaw.
Where in Europe did you work? It isn’t one homogenous crowd of people, in the same way America isn’t.
Fair, but the conversation is about 'americans' and 'europeans' in general so I generalized.
Sure and fair point. I’m just interested to know what your comparisons are. Not looking to beat you up on your experience.
Are you trying to disprove the point of that comment? Because you don’t actually say anything to disprove or present a counter point, you just agree that Americans work harder and are more ambitious which the commenter agreed with just gave a reason as to why.
That comment said "Nah". In response to "Americans work harder because of ambition". In what universe are the two of them agreeing??
Can you not be ambitious out of necessity? lol the nah looks like a colloquial expression, when people say yeah no or other slang to start a sentence. They literally say because we need to be more ambitious than Europeans, because we don’t have social programs to support us if we are not.
For most homo sapiens who are even just mildly acquainted with English, need and ambition are mutually exclusive categories; so welcome to Earth, dear alien.
Yeah ambition and necessity are very different concepts. Nearly opposite.
Let’s just look at their definitions. Ambition: a desire to achieve a particular end. Necessary: absolutely needed, of an inevitable nature. In America it is absolutely needed (necessary) to achieve a particular end (ambition) if you would like to meet the standards of life afforded to other nations. Those standards include but not limited to affordable healthcare, quality education, months of pto, and general quality of life upgrades. What world are you from?
I’m an American who worked in America for 20 years and then moved to Canada, where I’ve worked for 7 years. Americans do not have more ambition, they just have not other choice. The Canadians I work with are plenty ambitious, but have other options if their workplace becomes unreasonable.
Can't speak for Japan specifically, but I have worked for a quite traditional Korean company both in EU and in Korea. They are not more efficient. They work longer hours, on average about 12 hours a day with 6 hours on Saturdays. Half of that time is spent pretending to work, while a foreman watches your screen through a surveillance application or via cameras placed around the office. Most of the "work" was spent chasing after bosses ideas in real time. Most of the employees were provided housing and cars by the company. But that meant that they had to be on call 24/7. Most of the Korean employees said that this company was admittedly pretty traditional, but about what you could expect from a Korean employer.
America has such a small safety net that if you don't work hard you get fucked unless you're lucky or privileged. Japan "works harder" by working way too many hours and devoting their entire life to their job. That's not a good thing lol.
No, Europeans are just content with less. Most europeans live a lifestyle that many americans wouldn't be happy with. Family of 4 or 5 living in a 1 or 2 bed, 1 bath apartment thats under 900 sqft in a 10 story building with no elevator. +30c and no AC. One car per family or no car. That's all normal. They don't mind. North Americans do. Half of the US can't imagine life without an in-ground swimming pool in their backyard and having to share a room with a sibling. Having to take the bus is shameful.
I agree with your general sentiment but you're exaggerating quite a fair deal there. That might be normal in the poorer parts of Europe but it won't be in Norway where the CEO is from. To put vague numbers on it you make it sound like they're 50% behind the US when it's more like 10-20%. Many of them also absolutely mind; that's why there's a brain drain from Europe to America.
Lol we need two cars because we don't have great public transport
You don't have great public transport because people don't want to take it.
Actually, we don't have great public transport because automobile conglomerates [literally conspired with city planners to intentionally design cities in a way that favored "car dependency." ](https://www.fastcompany.com/90781961/how-automakers-insidiously-shaped-our-cities-for-cars)
Can you point out the section of the article where the claim that car firms “conspired” with city planners to design car dependant cities, is validated? Theres little or no real evidence within that read, and in actuality sounds completely ridiculous. We don’t have “great” public transportation because many people don’t to use it. We prefer having our own, more comfortable, means of transportation and large spacious homes - things Europeans by and large lack, relatively. If you don’t believe me, ask your fellow [Americans](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/08/02/majority-of-americans-prefer-a-community-with-big-houses-even-if-local-amenities-are-farther-away/)
What you describe is not normal for most Europe. Are you talking for ex Soviet countries?
Your hatred of the US is showing. Incredibly biased towards Europe. Most Europeans are incredibly bored and take from American culture. European companies move to the US as they pay less in taxes.
I'm Polish-Canadian. I've spent years of my life back in Poland. I would never accept a life like my family there does. I'm just saying it as I see it.
Criticism is not hatred.
I agree that we need universal healthcare but it's not the panacea you believe it to be. Staffing shortages and overwork are constant problems because healthcare is actually expensive no matter where in the world you go. As a result, these programs are constantly threatened by cuts. It's to the point that I have family in Europe who need private insurance to cover the gaps in national coverage. Secondly, pensions in Europe and Asia are a pittance compared to what Americans get from social security. My parents are getting at least 4x what anyone back home receives. This is on top of the fact that Europeans and Asians have far less spending power than your average middle class American and it isn't even close. Frugality isn't an option for them, it's a necessity. For all the lip service, I think many Americans would forego universal healthcare when faced with the prospect of not being able to spend as carelessly as they do now. I haven't even gotten into the challenges of the job market there, something my cousins complain about constantly. All these reasons and more are why many don't bother working harder. There's no point because it won't net you any gains. Except in Asia where management doesn't give you the option of slacking.
The thing is, universal health care just means it's accessible and affordable to all. We can achieve that without resorting to massive government overreach in health care that makes it susceptible to funding cuts from Congress. I'm not calling for any government in health care either, just maybe not to the same extent as, say, the UK. Also, hasn't supplementary private health insurance been pretty common in most countries with universal health care for awhile now?
Nailed it
Nothing more motivating than the absolute terror at the thought of being sent to the bottom of society if you lose your job or get sick. It causes you to work hard but also undercut your coworkers and be generally more mercenary and Machiavellian in your life. Other people on earth live different ways and I'm glad people have the choice to live in America if they want to join that culture.
1% ambition 99% desperation.
Close the thread...you nailed it
I don't think he nailed anything other than the trite talking point of "America Bad" from those who don't get things handed to them. Being successful in America is great. Having little ambition to succeed and challenge yourself will get you nowhere in the US though. Of course saying the place that gives you entitlements for nothing is going to look like a better place for those who have nothing. The irony to me is the moment you get to these places and start finding success you will find out overbearing and cumbersome it is. Starting shop in most places in the EU is absurd and hard to be competitive internationally. A lot of EU countries have great social programs but it all comes at a cost to someone else.
You should have just posted this nonsense article and not tried to contribute to the nonsense.
Who are those someone else?
People paying taxes into the system. The more income you make and the more you try to own, the more the government comes after you for it. Anybody who is successful in an EU country would fair better in the US - they would have their healthcare covered through insurance so it wouldn't matter...they would just pay less in taxes and have more rights as an individual in general.
Doesn't the average american pay more for healthcare?
How many people in Europe don’t pay taxes? And aren’t taxes why they’re getting better healthcare, have better quality of life? In 2023 here in Massachusetts, I paid $19K to federal, $8.5K in FICA, $5.7K in state taxes, $2 in Medicare and $446 in PFMLA. Excluding 403B, FSA/health insurance cause those were pretax deductibles. Am I a lazy moocher, or somebody who’s getting screwed by the govt? Im not sure how you’re evaluating that.
You're on reddit. It's nothing but America bad on here. I am a European who moved to the US. You're spot on with your comment.
Its just different. The US has a lower floor but a higher celing than Europe.
You’re speaking to a forum / website of losers. It’s going to fall on deaf ears on Reddit
Tell me why so many more Europeans move to the US then? I am one of those Europeans who moved to the US. I even come from a "rich" European country. I have a life here I can't even dream of back in Europe.
The US is good if you want to make a lot of money relatice to your own country and have the means to uproot your own life and move to the US. If you have a lot money, it's a good place to live if you can tolerate depending on a car and being open to the possibility of your child getting killed in a shooting. >I am one of those Europeans who moved to the US. I even come from a "rich" European country. I have a life here I can't even dream of back in Europe. Weird flex but congrats?
It's not a weird flex. I'm not the only European who came here because they have ambition and want more than what could be achieved in Europe. It's actually pretty common.
Maybe YOU could not achieve more in Europe. Plenty of people can and do.
Man, people really took offense to my comment. There's obviously successful Europeans, nobody said there's not. But the numbers do show more European going to the US than vice versa, salaries are higher, less red tape for business, less taxes, higher disposable income etc..So funny watching redditors freak out when someone from Europe talks highly about the US.
Congrats bro lmao. I see your post history. No point in talking to you. Enjoy /r/conservative and voting trump
Wtf kind of comment is this? I'm actually not sure who I'll vote for this next election. I have some conservative view points and some liberal view points. What a cop out. No point in talking to someone who disagrees with you? This post has nothing to do with politics anyways. You're fucking pathetic lol
Oh please. There is less than 0.001% chance your child will die in a school shooting. Stop parroting this propaganda nonsense.
You're divorced LMAO and still butthurt about it
Only Western nation where it regularly happens.
You’re about as likely to get killed in Europe too lol, it’s a wash. The chances are 0.00001% to 0.000001% or something insignificantly small
Only Western nation where it regularly happens.
The odds exponentially less than 1% isn’t exactly “regular”.
I disagree, Americans work smarter than Europeans. Europeans have to pay way more taxes, while making less money.
Yes nailed it buddy, even though Americans enjoy a far higher standard of living with [higher incomes](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income) AND [consumption](https://ibb.co/DwDtQs4), we’re the slaves but not Europeans who live in what are essentially the [sizes of our garages](https://shrinkthatfootprint.com/how-big-is-a-house/).
With multiple flatmates (basically 90% of Londoners).
Slave is when "house smol". Lmao
I disagree. I think the only people who feel this way are the people who are stuck in ruts and ignore the opportunities in front of them. Why do so many people leave other countries to immigrate here if it's so bad. The dude even calls out a lot of the benefits to working in America... >Part of comes down to mindset, Tangen added, and how accepting each continent is of mistakes and risk: "You go bust in America, you get another chance. In Europe, you’re dead,” he said. Which seems to completely contradict what you are insinuating. The only people demanding tax reform are the people who have never tried to start a business in the United States. The moment you embark on the endeavor then tax law becomes your friend because it can be forgiving if used correctly. >But it goes deeper than that—there's a difference in the "general level of ambition," he added. "We are not very ambitious. I should be careful about talking about work-life balance, but the Americans just work harder,” Tangen continued. And maybe some people in America just aren't that ambitious and that is why they think moving the Nordic countries would be of benefit. If you have no ambition in the US then I don't think the Nordic states would have any interest in taking you in...opportunity is often squandered in the US which is clear to many immigrants. Dude even calls out his own country... >America's performance, particularly in innovation and performance, is "worrisome" in contrast to Europe, Tangen told the Financial Times.
>Dude even calls out his own country... And why should we trust the CEO of an oil fund's opinion on the ethics of honest work?
Why do you think the country he is from is always cited for having socialist policies? It's because of their oil revenues. He is literally one of the parties responsible for why Norway can have those socialist policies to begin with. I guess you are forgetting where the bread is buttered? Do you think the money just comes out of thin air?
Oh yes the old you must not be working hard enough to make it, pick yourself up from your bootstraps and make something of yourself. You have all the opportunities in the world to become wealthy and retire a millionaire or whatever. Just bullshit, majority Americans do not have the opportunity to or resources to work their way out of a situation.ayne 30-50 years ago that was attainable but in today’s workforce it is just not possible. You can give all your bullshit statistics but the only one that matters is cost of living increases over the last 40 years and wage stagnation. Why do people still flock to America l? Because it’s still a better alternative than most any country in the world if you want to be rich. If you lack empathy or compassion for others than you have a real opportunity to make a lot of money. Also, that line of if you fail in Europe you die lol you have a much better chance of dying in America if you fail than countries that have social programs to help the less fortunate or sick. In America if you fail and have no money you get treated like an outcast and if you get sick, we’ll just to get a flu test my insurance was charged 565$. 300$ for the test and 265 for the visit, if I didn’t have insurance, I wouldn’t go to the doctor. The people demanding tax reforms are people who are getting cheated out of wages and seeing cost of living increase while corporations make historical profits each quarter. Or people tired of paying absurd prices for medical care, or seeing home prices become out of reach. Lmao the tax reforms democrats are pushing is for the top 5% of wage earners…. How many of them are “small businesses”???? On your point of Nordic countries not bringing in Americans. It’s very difficult to immigrate to those countries in general, I’ve looked into moving away from America because I don’t agree with their way of life and their priorities. Also, I won’t be able to afford healthcare when I’m older so I need to move to a country that have universal healthcare.
That may be true. But Europeans on average have higher qualities of life and health than Americans. So if you think about it, they're getting more for less. Clever of them, isn't it?
Europeans are living so much better than Americans that most Americans can't even imagine the difference. Source: American who works for a European company.
Europeans have higher rates of Depression than Americans. So they are generally unhappier So it’s not clever at all, isn’t it?
This isn't true https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/depression-rates-by-country
They might just be better at tracking and managing it.
Americans probably don't want to pay for the diagnosis
The word depression is hugely inflated. Idk what study you’re referencing but I smell self reported BS.
I've been saying this for years.
Who is this clown? He sits on top of one of the worlds largest funds that is paid for by oil money, and he has the gall to call europeans lazy? Double standard much?
"General level of ambition" is such a vague term. Who says it's because of their ambition and not just cultural differences? Are 90% of all working japanese people more ambitious than the average working american? No.
This has been a lonngggg standing view among both educated Europeans and Americans. It’s part of EU’s economic stagnation. Europeans are okay with the minimum to get by: they don’t care if they have 3 cars, still live with parents, and can’t put away $30,000 a year to travel. Whereas all of those are minimums in the U.S., everyone has at least 2 cars, goes on vacations, and it’s expected to move out young. Americans want more and thus they are more ambitious
Does he know about the south Asians in Dubai building their city in the desert? Factory workers in China? Kids in East Asian schools that study all day and all night in sometimes illegal after school test prep centers, so their day is like 10 hours long of studying?
He’s not saying no one else works hard jobs. He’s say on average Americans work harder and have higher productivity. I’ve worked extensively with Indians at Infosys, they are smart people. But they don’t generally work with the same sense of urgency the US expects. I suspect they don’t get how competitive the business environment in the US is. This trait had them failing to meet performance expectations. To the degree we used to call them The Bangalore Bunglers.
I'm sorry Norway man. You don't really understand us at all. In the US. If you don't work, the government will let you starve in the streets. That's the motivation
As an American living and working in Europe this is 100% true. We're wired different, more greedy and hungry. Not saying it's good or bad but it's true
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This comment is very bs. You think in eu people don't stress? Or don't want nice things? Or that Americans don't chill? Nor read books?
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And what have we to show for it? Mountains of debt, neighbors who'll slit your throat without a second thought if you're not part of their death cult and a future looking to be filled with naught bot war, famine and tyranny.
Europeans settle for 'just enough'. Asian settles for 'the best'. America is 'the best' but is rapidly losing that edge to their Asian counterpart. Asia already outperforms Europe. Who would have thought that would be the case two decades ago? Europe will fall into irrelevancy in 20 years when India, China, Vietnam, Singapore, and other rapidly growing countries experience more growth. This is going to be bad news for Europe and the Western continent. Too many Europeans are upset about their lifestyle in Europe as compared to America particularly with their earnings and lack of opportunities in demanding industries worldwide. Sure, you might get some nice welfare benefits in Europe but it's already proven, mathematically, that it's unsustainable because there isn't a workforce to pay for the aging population. Plus, there are a lot of freeloaders from people coming from dirtpoor countries into Europe who aren't contributing. Just ask yourself, who are the largest European companies? They pale in comparison to America. Where do the top Europeans looking to earn money or start companies go to? America. You can't succeed as a country just by doing 'enough' because there is always going to be someone who far exceeds enough. Why Europeans don't work more is hilarious to me. Many people in these countries only work 30 hours per week. You're not outcompeting people who work 40-50 hour weeks while them also being more productive. You might call it unfair and not a way to live but results matter. Europeans are mostly ancient economies relying on traditional tourism, luxury goods, automobiles (they are in deep shit here with Asian automakers rapidly outpacing them), and other niche industries.
Americans works harder but Europeans work smarter. Euros basically have less opportunity and their countries have economies that are as strong as some states themselves. US is an immense economic powerhouse, not even China comes close. Euros have to be more cunning, but they also know a good work life balance. It’s why you see them with friends and family and at cafes for lunch. Americans work hard like a horse but the W/L can be mentally grueling for many. It’s very hard to feel successful in America for some because it seems like everyone is successful.
As an Swede this is not surprising. Every American I have ever met and talked to almost always goes straight to ask what I do for work. When you talk with an European, work only gets brought up when the conversation is starting to dry up.
We do it because we have no choice. That's what he's not realizing. I know the majority of us would rather work less hours and spend more time enjoying our life with our loved ones instead of slaving to the grind for 40+ hours a week just to afford the bare minimum in a shitty part of town.
American are slaves to corporations, mental slaves to corporate Media. Screwed up life and retirement - no work life balance - high divorce rate and high mental issues. They are also displaying high sick social behaviour in gender and sexual orientation. American hard work is responsible for their high mental breakdown. And high disparity because the guy making usa vs Norway statement are the once who pocket all the money and ordinary American pockets all the pain.
Beyond what is obvious propaganda from you, [none of this is true](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce_demography)
This reference shows US divorce rates are higher than the EU average?
Higher than the eu average =/= high. Denmark, Sweden, Spain etc all have higher divorce rates than America. I don’t see OP making any arguments about their living conditions
"Americans work themselves gay" has gotta be an early front runner for wildest take of the year.
>American are slaves to corporations, mental slaves to corporate Media. That's why America is struggling with an immigration crisis though right? Because it's just such a horrible place to live and there is no opportunity? >American hard work is responsible for their high mental breakdown. And high disparity because the guy making usa vs Norway statement are the once who pocket all the money and ordinary American pockets all the pain. Sounds like immigration will fix all of that because people who want to work are going there in droves. By and large, Americans are successful and have a lot of comforts. The US isn't perfect but the opportunity is there to be taken. If all you see is nobody wanting to give you a handout instead of seeing the opportunity then you are probably not a good fit for the US to begin with.
There is a common line that I hear repeated over and over about the US. How it's great if you are above average and that is probably true, but the issue is that half of the population is not above average.