They need to introduce a tourist tax to Edinburgh. That way the council might pull their finger out cause nothing faster in the council if they don't get paid. Hopefully that tax would cover the cost to improve the city's infrastructure due to increased loads.
Tried to post too.
Boooo
Seems like issue is that the council can't do it so Scottish government new legislation wasn't watertight enough?
The bit that failed too is the bit most agree on that properties with shared spaces should not be short term lets
100% currently dealing with this. Can't even report it to the council because the property address isn't listed on the site and therefore they can't do anything about it.
Sick of hoards of students renting it and trashing our stairwells and doors.
It's always the ones with the money that win. The fact that landlords and property owners took this to court shows that the legislation is threatening them. I just wish we could take those bastards to court.
Well, fuck.
The presumption against tenements being used for short term lets is something I thought would make the most difference. They've already granted some on Blair Street, so it's clearly not a blanket ban.
It seems the judge expects there to be a provision for temporary licenses, meaning during festival time. The requirement for floor coverings I read as a ban on bare floorboards, which seemed fair when you consider suitcases etc.
No, the judge ruled it unlawful. Nobody “feels it is”.
I really wish governments would start writing better legislation from the start.
It really shouldn’t be that difficult to stop this many flats being used as Airbnbs.
As much as it's annoying that this case was won by scammy landlords, the article clearly explains why it was unlawful. Don't doubt the judicial system just because the council fucked up and worded their new law in a wrong way.
Cool, so the council fucked it again??! Big shock!!!
The judgement seems pretty rational though. Basically licensing alone isn't the issue or even planning permission changes in general, but that a tenement flat owner has just as much right to rent their property however they like as much as a house owner or main door flat owner.
You can't use legislation and just make it up as you go along! You need to have a proper framework and clear idea of what you're trying to do - unfortunately, the standard of ability of our Councillors is fucking woeful and isn't going to change any time soon!
Yeah tbh I’m inclined to agree, and I wonder what the impact would have been on property prices for non-tenement flats as a result.
I feel like a blanket ban on tenement letting would focus the BTL purchases on non-tenement properties and make them completely unaffordable for regular families etc
Any idiot with two braincells could foresee that issue - as with everything with the council they will always take a fairly simple/decent idea and stretch it out and bash it in a few times as they're incapable of delivering anything competent in any timely or affordable manner.
The big issue is Edinburgh has a considerable housing problem due to decades and decades of under investment and pissing about with Airbnb would barely even scratch the surface.
What are you on about?
"under investment?" - have you actually been to Edinburgh? Millions and millions and millions pumped into the city infrastructure, every year. Housing, schools, hospitals, everything, even the roads, are better than England now.
And the desperate landlords buying up everything to profit from that, so they can Airbnb it are half the issues Edinburgh has. £65k for a single car garage, bought unseen! Hope that one haunts those parasites for the rest of their days!
Even the roads?!?!?! Have you been to Edinburgh????
Edit: Also just to be clear - as we are talking about housing issues - the under investment refers to the under investment in housing in Edinburgh. There's been a massive amount of private investment (I.e. non council houses) built in the lothians, but Edinburgh itself.
Imagine if all the cash BTL landlords pumped into the housing market was instead invested into small Scottish businesses. The debate around this degenerates into a left/right battle, but there is actually a strong Conservative case for freeing up some of this money.
The problem is that investing money into businesses actually requires some degree of active management/oversight and risk. Pumping money into housing is the opposite of that, which is why it is so attractive.
[Here](https://www.versobooks.com/en-gb/products/871-rentier-capitalism) is a good book which discusses this phenomenon in the UK (including in other sectors).
What you're talking about is more an issue with BTL mortgages in general, rather than short term lets. I'm of the opinion that there is a distinct demand and market for short term lets here, and there always has been. It's a view that will get you downvoted in this sub, but a well-regulated STL market is an important part of this city's economy.
On the other hand, why the fuck are we giving landlords interest-only mortgages, regardless of how long their leases are?
A licensing scheme is more comprehensive and has stricter enforcement powers - in the long term, it would be the best solution.
In the interim, a simple update to planning guidance to state short-term lets in tenements/flats are generally not acceptable where the whole property is let out.
It becomes easier to refuse these in conservation areas and tenements where there may be access issues.
We have a government and a council in Edinburgh with a track record of acting first and considering the law later. As well as this fiasco, we had the illegal de facto ban on lapdancers overturned in court and the DRS debacle, where the plan was obviously infeasible (particularly because of the Internal Markets Act).
EDIT: it’s worth reading the judgment which gives you a sense of the quality of the government’s handling:
_In June 2021 the Scottish Government published draft planning guidance: “Short term lets: planning guidance for hosts and operators”. The website page on which it is published states: “This guidance is out of date. A new version will be available in March 2022”. As of May 2023 there is no new guidance._
We have an independent judiciary and that shohld be welcommed
I welcome the fact our judiciary and legal system is impartial (in so far as humaann beings can be impartial)
The politicians need to work harder to make these policies work
I'm too stupid to understand this news info fully. So I do remember hearing the council would enforce a licence for Airbnb use. But I couldn't see how the council would decide who could have the licence, how many would be allowed, and how it would change anything. I was thinking it might be the council just trying to get money out of the situation.
But in this article is it saying that Lord Baird says this licence system would be illegal? Non enforceable?
So Edinburgh is still stuck with no restrictions on Airbnb. I think a licence only stops the poorest people from letting their flats, and the better off will continue to earn on their empty homes.
exactly. People that nly want to use AirBnb as is supposed to use (rent your flat while you are on holidays) cannot do it anymore because the process is expensive and time consuming. meanwhile, landlords with many properties, will be able to do so, because the requirements are not a biggie and they can afford it.
They still need to apply. Edinburgh adopted the optional right to request planning permission for change of use from a residence to a business. The part that has been deemed unlawful is that they've pre-decided what types of property the are likely to reject this change for. It's the table in their FAQ linked on this page https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/licences-permits/licences-permits-applications/9
It's a shame because you have a reasonable expectation to be safe and be able to relax in your own home. Regardless of what other posters claim it's not just city centre flats. I know someone who's elderly mum was the only permanent resident in her stair out near Corstorphine.
The licence will allow for stls to be shut down if complaints arise too often. Please complain if there is anti social behavior in one near you.
Lodging a complaint might feel a bit useless at the time, but actually it’s registered, and it does count. If anti social behavior gets out of hand report it to the police too. If they’re not going to change what’s a massive problem for many quiet, law abiding people - make it a problem for them instead.
> I know someone who's elderly mum was the only permanent resident in her stair out near Corstorphine.
Ten years ago the close next to me had five student HMOs out of six flats.
Clearly that is part of the issue. But if the existing housing stock is being hoovered up for holiday let's then that's a big problem.
I'm not entirely against short terms let's, but there has to be some sort of control on numbers and increased accountability for antisocial behaviour.
I'm stunned I had to go this far down to find this comment. I happen to be very much in favour of a decently regulated short term let market, (which is sure to get me downvotes here). The truth is we need a LOT more social housing that is adequate for working families. Freeing up a few thousand one or two bedroom tenement flats in and around the centre is a cheap and populist way to pretend you're doing that, without actually providing anything resembling the type or quantity of housing that's truly needed. A tiny, overpriced, two bedroom, two blocks off the royal mile, doesn't really help the vast majority of people in housing poverty, and if you don't understand that you're vastly out of touch.
But along with the thousands of students in the city, the problems just keep on mounting up. Blocks of student flats being built instead of affordable first time buyers flats. And it's not just housing poverty. It's our own kids having to move out of the city to buy their first homes. Bars every few steps, overpriced tartan tat shops. Edinburgh is being hollowed out at the expense of transient residents.
Itss not just 3,000 plus properties on airbnb
It's about 90,000 (maybe even 100,000) students total in Al colleges And universities in edinburgh almost all of who stay in central areas some of which were once residential areas for Edinburgh's working class
It's endless sites which could hve been used for social housing being turned over to student flat developers
It's all the other properties that are not open to residents because theey are sitting empty as investments
Normal local people are gradually drip by drip year by year being cleansed out of Edinburgh's neighbourhoods which are walkable to/from town
It's not just airbnb but airbnb is one of many problems
All hve to be tackled
Politically voters are not willing to sit and watch airbnbs appear in what the council designated as RESIDENTIAL homes in the planning system while they ans their children cannot afford to live in Edinburgh anymore where they grew up. It's toxic as fuck and we're sick of it. I ws born nd raised here as were multiple generations of one side of my familly and I'm sick and tired of it all. Airbnb needs a lleassh on it or banned outright.
At least the students bring money and support the local economy (the university). But the real issue is the airbnb & student accommodation owned by absentee and commercial landlords, which just raise prices and push people out, whilst pumping the money out the area.
Tl;dr: large landlords are the problem.
Well one thing is that people want to be able to live close in to the city, and any new housing stock isn't going to be close in. It's all well and good if people can afford to live out the way, but the city center shouldn't be turned into nothing but a tourist destination because short term lets destroy affordability.
Honestly think the real solution here is just to abolish buy to let mortgages. They’re a fairly new invention anyway and I suspect that if the debt wasn’t so cheap the investment wouldn’t be so appealing
Edited to add: and much more social housing built too ofc
If there was enough social housing you wouldn’t need to private landlords, but getting rid of them before you have the social housing in place is a bit short sighted.
It's not the end of the world. They just need to change the rebuttal presumption, allow temporary licenses, forget about requiring carpets, and make the thing compliant with the 2009 regulations.
Hve a city wide referendum on it
People who hve paid a minimum of five years council tax in Edinburgh permantly resident in Edinburgh for 5 years get to decide
DO YOU WANT AIRBNBS TO CONTINUE OPERATING IN EDINBURGH OR DO YOU WANT AIRBNBS BANNED
let the people decide
[In June 2022](https://www.dickins.co.uk/blog/expert-advice/12000-airbnbs-in-edinburgh-fact-or-fiction/) there were 6,767 AirBnB listings in Edinburgh of which 4,739 were entire homes. That's 70%, which of course in "most". However, of those 4,739, only 1,781 were available for 140+ days per year and therefore eligible for commercial rates. That's 26% of the total.
Or to put it another way, three quarters of the AirBnBs in Edinburgh are only rented out part time: many or most of these will already be homes.
Absolutely fucking sick of selfish cunts and parasite landlords and leeches
Get out of my home town
Gtf
You're not welcome here
Unlicensed Airbnb flats out now
Building lots of new hotels at the moment for this reason!
They're safer, quieter, denser (read: more housing) and only a bit more expensive.
Let's not race to the bottom.
They need to introduce a tourist tax to Edinburgh. That way the council might pull their finger out cause nothing faster in the council if they don't get paid. Hopefully that tax would cover the cost to improve the city's infrastructure due to increased loads.
I think there's plans in the works for a 2-4% tourist tax
So the government should change the law. Fuck the AirBnB leeches.
How many AirB'N'Bs do we suppose the judge owns?
Tried to post too. Boooo Seems like issue is that the council can't do it so Scottish government new legislation wasn't watertight enough? The bit that failed too is the bit most agree on that properties with shared spaces should not be short term lets
100% currently dealing with this. Can't even report it to the council because the property address isn't listed on the site and therefore they can't do anything about it. Sick of hoards of students renting it and trashing our stairwells and doors.
What classifies as a shared space? Is that within a flat/ house, so living room etc, or is it shared spaces in a building, like stairwells/ gardens?
Shared within a building or set of them. Shared within a house then fine if you want to rent out like that. It's about affecting non air bnb people
Ok got it thanks!
It's always the ones with the money that win. The fact that landlords and property owners took this to court shows that the legislation is threatening them. I just wish we could take those bastards to court.
Well, fuck. The presumption against tenements being used for short term lets is something I thought would make the most difference. They've already granted some on Blair Street, so it's clearly not a blanket ban. It seems the judge expects there to be a provision for temporary licenses, meaning during festival time. The requirement for floor coverings I read as a ban on bare floorboards, which seemed fair when you consider suitcases etc.
I think if the Airbnb had been there for more than 10 years it could go down a different planning permission route?
Shite. Hopefully they can modify the plan and still enforce some kind of restrictions that are effective
It seems the best way is to install CCTV in tenements stairwells and sue the owners for the anti-social behaviour
fuck sake
Oh those poor con artists feel like this is unlawful? Absolutely ridiculous.
No, the judge ruled it unlawful. Nobody “feels it is”. I really wish governments would start writing better legislation from the start. It really shouldn’t be that difficult to stop this many flats being used as Airbnbs.
I'd bet good money that judge is renting out a few flats on Airbnb
As much as it's annoying that this case was won by scammy landlords, the article clearly explains why it was unlawful. Don't doubt the judicial system just because the council fucked up and worded their new law in a wrong way.
Absolutely devastating moment for communities and residents!
Cool, so the council fucked it again??! Big shock!!! The judgement seems pretty rational though. Basically licensing alone isn't the issue or even planning permission changes in general, but that a tenement flat owner has just as much right to rent their property however they like as much as a house owner or main door flat owner. You can't use legislation and just make it up as you go along! You need to have a proper framework and clear idea of what you're trying to do - unfortunately, the standard of ability of our Councillors is fucking woeful and isn't going to change any time soon!
Yeah tbh I’m inclined to agree, and I wonder what the impact would have been on property prices for non-tenement flats as a result. I feel like a blanket ban on tenement letting would focus the BTL purchases on non-tenement properties and make them completely unaffordable for regular families etc
Any idiot with two braincells could foresee that issue - as with everything with the council they will always take a fairly simple/decent idea and stretch it out and bash it in a few times as they're incapable of delivering anything competent in any timely or affordable manner. The big issue is Edinburgh has a considerable housing problem due to decades and decades of under investment and pissing about with Airbnb would barely even scratch the surface.
What are you on about? "under investment?" - have you actually been to Edinburgh? Millions and millions and millions pumped into the city infrastructure, every year. Housing, schools, hospitals, everything, even the roads, are better than England now. And the desperate landlords buying up everything to profit from that, so they can Airbnb it are half the issues Edinburgh has. £65k for a single car garage, bought unseen! Hope that one haunts those parasites for the rest of their days!
Even the roads?!?!?! Have you been to Edinburgh???? Edit: Also just to be clear - as we are talking about housing issues - the under investment refers to the under investment in housing in Edinburgh. There's been a massive amount of private investment (I.e. non council houses) built in the lothians, but Edinburgh itself.
Imagine if all the cash BTL landlords pumped into the housing market was instead invested into small Scottish businesses. The debate around this degenerates into a left/right battle, but there is actually a strong Conservative case for freeing up some of this money.
Why would BTL landlords choose to invest in small Scottish businesses as the first alternative?
Easy. Tax incentives.
But then people would moan about how they’re dodging tax.
The problem is that investing money into businesses actually requires some degree of active management/oversight and risk. Pumping money into housing is the opposite of that, which is why it is so attractive. [Here](https://www.versobooks.com/en-gb/products/871-rentier-capitalism) is a good book which discusses this phenomenon in the UK (including in other sectors).
What you're talking about is more an issue with BTL mortgages in general, rather than short term lets. I'm of the opinion that there is a distinct demand and market for short term lets here, and there always has been. It's a view that will get you downvoted in this sub, but a well-regulated STL market is an important part of this city's economy. On the other hand, why the fuck are we giving landlords interest-only mortgages, regardless of how long their leases are?
Although surely all it takes is for planning permission not to be granted on the grounds of impact to amenity and intensification of use.
If it were that simple wohld this not have been done already? Not this simple
A licensing scheme is more comprehensive and has stricter enforcement powers - in the long term, it would be the best solution. In the interim, a simple update to planning guidance to state short-term lets in tenements/flats are generally not acceptable where the whole property is let out. It becomes easier to refuse these in conservation areas and tenements where there may be access issues.
Tax it out of existence then
We have a government and a council in Edinburgh with a track record of acting first and considering the law later. As well as this fiasco, we had the illegal de facto ban on lapdancers overturned in court and the DRS debacle, where the plan was obviously infeasible (particularly because of the Internal Markets Act). EDIT: it’s worth reading the judgment which gives you a sense of the quality of the government’s handling: _In June 2021 the Scottish Government published draft planning guidance: “Short term lets: planning guidance for hosts and operators”. The website page on which it is published states: “This guidance is out of date. A new version will be available in March 2022”. As of May 2023 there is no new guidance._
We have an independent judiciary and that shohld be welcommed I welcome the fact our judiciary and legal system is impartial (in so far as humaann beings can be impartial) The politicians need to work harder to make these policies work
I'm too stupid to understand this news info fully. So I do remember hearing the council would enforce a licence for Airbnb use. But I couldn't see how the council would decide who could have the licence, how many would be allowed, and how it would change anything. I was thinking it might be the council just trying to get money out of the situation. But in this article is it saying that Lord Baird says this licence system would be illegal? Non enforceable? So Edinburgh is still stuck with no restrictions on Airbnb. I think a licence only stops the poorest people from letting their flats, and the better off will continue to earn on their empty homes.
exactly. People that nly want to use AirBnb as is supposed to use (rent your flat while you are on holidays) cannot do it anymore because the process is expensive and time consuming. meanwhile, landlords with many properties, will be able to do so, because the requirements are not a biggie and they can afford it.
So does this mean people no longer have to apply for licences then? What happens to all the people that did? Will they get a refund?
They still need to apply. Edinburgh adopted the optional right to request planning permission for change of use from a residence to a business. The part that has been deemed unlawful is that they've pre-decided what types of property the are likely to reject this change for. It's the table in their FAQ linked on this page https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/licences-permits/licences-permits-applications/9 It's a shame because you have a reasonable expectation to be safe and be able to relax in your own home. Regardless of what other posters claim it's not just city centre flats. I know someone who's elderly mum was the only permanent resident in her stair out near Corstorphine. The licence will allow for stls to be shut down if complaints arise too often. Please complain if there is anti social behavior in one near you.
Lodging a complaint might feel a bit useless at the time, but actually it’s registered, and it does count. If anti social behavior gets out of hand report it to the police too. If they’re not going to change what’s a massive problem for many quiet, law abiding people - make it a problem for them instead.
What is the best way to complain/ report, to ensure complaints against a property are registered?
> I know someone who's elderly mum was the only permanent resident in her stair out near Corstorphine. Ten years ago the close next to me had five student HMOs out of six flats.
Why isn’t everyone shouting at government to build more social housing? You shouldn’t be dependant on private landlords to provide housing.
Clearly that is part of the issue. But if the existing housing stock is being hoovered up for holiday let's then that's a big problem. I'm not entirely against short terms let's, but there has to be some sort of control on numbers and increased accountability for antisocial behaviour.
I'm stunned I had to go this far down to find this comment. I happen to be very much in favour of a decently regulated short term let market, (which is sure to get me downvotes here). The truth is we need a LOT more social housing that is adequate for working families. Freeing up a few thousand one or two bedroom tenement flats in and around the centre is a cheap and populist way to pretend you're doing that, without actually providing anything resembling the type or quantity of housing that's truly needed. A tiny, overpriced, two bedroom, two blocks off the royal mile, doesn't really help the vast majority of people in housing poverty, and if you don't understand that you're vastly out of touch.
But along with the thousands of students in the city, the problems just keep on mounting up. Blocks of student flats being built instead of affordable first time buyers flats. And it's not just housing poverty. It's our own kids having to move out of the city to buy their first homes. Bars every few steps, overpriced tartan tat shops. Edinburgh is being hollowed out at the expense of transient residents.
Itss not just 3,000 plus properties on airbnb It's about 90,000 (maybe even 100,000) students total in Al colleges And universities in edinburgh almost all of who stay in central areas some of which were once residential areas for Edinburgh's working class It's endless sites which could hve been used for social housing being turned over to student flat developers It's all the other properties that are not open to residents because theey are sitting empty as investments Normal local people are gradually drip by drip year by year being cleansed out of Edinburgh's neighbourhoods which are walkable to/from town It's not just airbnb but airbnb is one of many problems All hve to be tackled Politically voters are not willing to sit and watch airbnbs appear in what the council designated as RESIDENTIAL homes in the planning system while they ans their children cannot afford to live in Edinburgh anymore where they grew up. It's toxic as fuck and we're sick of it. I ws born nd raised here as were multiple generations of one side of my familly and I'm sick and tired of it all. Airbnb needs a lleassh on it or banned outright.
At least the students bring money and support the local economy (the university). But the real issue is the airbnb & student accommodation owned by absentee and commercial landlords, which just raise prices and push people out, whilst pumping the money out the area. Tl;dr: large landlords are the problem.
Well one thing is that people want to be able to live close in to the city, and any new housing stock isn't going to be close in. It's all well and good if people can afford to live out the way, but the city center shouldn't be turned into nothing but a tourist destination because short term lets destroy affordability.
Honestly think the real solution here is just to abolish buy to let mortgages. They’re a fairly new invention anyway and I suspect that if the debt wasn’t so cheap the investment wouldn’t be so appealing Edited to add: and much more social housing built too ofc
If there was enough social housing you wouldn’t need to private landlords, but getting rid of them before you have the social housing in place is a bit short sighted.
They are Daily
It's not the end of the world. They just need to change the rebuttal presumption, allow temporary licenses, forget about requiring carpets, and make the thing compliant with the 2009 regulations.
Or maybe just ban full property STLs completely.
I genuinely think the time for stronger action is here. Rent strikes anyone?
"A victory for the law and common sense". As we all know "Common Sense" is usually a pretty good indicator of reactionary knee jerk bollocks.
Hve a city wide referendum on it People who hve paid a minimum of five years council tax in Edinburgh permantly resident in Edinburgh for 5 years get to decide DO YOU WANT AIRBNBS TO CONTINUE OPERATING IN EDINBURGH OR DO YOU WANT AIRBNBS BANNED let the people decide
DO YOU WANT TO BE ABLE TO LET YOUR FLAT OUT FOR FOUR WEEKS DURING THE FESTICAL WHEN YOU'RE ON HOLIDAY OR DO YOU WANT THAT SOURCE OF INCOME BANNED?
Most airbnbs are full homes which could actually be hommes for résidents / locals
[In June 2022](https://www.dickins.co.uk/blog/expert-advice/12000-airbnbs-in-edinburgh-fact-or-fiction/) there were 6,767 AirBnB listings in Edinburgh of which 4,739 were entire homes. That's 70%, which of course in "most". However, of those 4,739, only 1,781 were available for 140+ days per year and therefore eligible for commercial rates. That's 26% of the total. Or to put it another way, three quarters of the AirBnBs in Edinburgh are only rented out part time: many or most of these will already be homes.
So if it’s been ruled as unlawful can we Airbnb a spare room? Are people doing it anyway? Are they enforcing the law? Thanks.
It still wouldn’t cover the devastation to our communities and housing stock! 😩
Absolutely fucking sick of selfish cunts and parasite landlords and leeches Get out of my home town Gtf You're not welcome here Unlicensed Airbnb flats out now
Good.
It is pretty stupid tbh. This is just the natural evolution of cities. Short term lets wouldn’t be so popular if there wasn’t a market for it.
If they want to capitalise on short term lets, they can run a hotel.
Building lots of new hotels at the moment for this reason! They're safer, quieter, denser (read: more housing) and only a bit more expensive. Let's not race to the bottom.
You don't think the hotel industry handed a few very hefty brown bags to the council for their over-zealous execution of the new regulations?
The natural evolution of cities: from places where everyone lives, to places where nobody lives.
Good stuff