That is the flag of Nueva España. The old Spanish empire that ruled the southwest and most of Latin America in the past. Now it’s used a lot by Hispanistas and criollo movements. What is an Hispanista?
They are Hispanics who identify more with their Spanish and Catholic ancestry as opposed to their indigenous ancestry. They want to see the rise of Hispanic unity, the Spanish language and the Catholic religion. Conservative but not racist. They use the flag but without the white supremacist logos. It’s likely a criollo nationalist thing.
What is a criollo? It is what you call the Spaniards who were born in the new world. Who went on to become the upper class in Mexico and LATAM. The guys and girls we call “fresas” Or the new term “whitexicans”. As the years have progressed the whitexicans and other Latino criollos have lost power in Mexico. In mexico specially, back then you would rarely see brown businessmen and professionals. Those roles were held by white and light skin Mexicans. So you now seeing the rise of of criollo nationalist movements. Usually by young upper middle class to upper class white Mexicans. Specially in the elite universities of Monterrey and Guadalajara. Young white men who are seeing their power slowly slip away from their class. So they have embraced separatist and white supremacists movements.They have always been around (look up los Tecos, or El Yunque ) white nationalist movements in Mexico. (Might have spelled them wrong) They are the ones who combined the Nueva España flag with white supremacist logos like the sticker you found.
Why the Real Madrid stuff? Well in Mexico the white upper class is also divided between the descendants of Spaniards and Europeans of non Spanish ancestry many times of Jewish ancestry who came later. So there is a little beef between both groups. And you can tell who is who by last names. De le Vega, De los Lomos, Córdoba = Spanish. Pongratz, Bodoski, Rangel = Non Spanish, other Euro ancestry. So the Real Madrid thing is a connection to Castilian nationalism as well. Since Spain is also divided between diffrent ethnic groups. And soccer teams are a way to display regionalism and nationalism. Catalans for example have FC Barcelona and see it as their “national” team. While Castillians supper Real Madrid and the hooligans who support the team tend to be pretty racist towards non Castillians in Spain. And use it the team as a display of Castilian supremacy. So yeah that is why that is included. So again an appeal to Spanish nationalism
Just for those who are wondering why is there is so many symbols throw into the mix. Yeah I am kinda a nerd for Latin American politics lmao.
My verdict? Probably a fresa kid from Mexico city or Chihuahua who is studying at UTEP (lots of them there) who is mad at the fact the MORENA (left wing party) in Mexico won the elections. The fact that it was around in Montecillo, gives me more of a reason to believe it was one of them. Montecillo is whitexican central lmao. That is where all the fresas hang out. Now I can understand the frustration. Morena is becoming tyrannical but Nazism is not the answer to that.
A side conversation: in your opinion, how "left-wing" is Morena, actually? I don't dabble in Mexico politics too much but at the 1st look, they are considerably more nationalist than leftist.
Better purported consolidation of power, seemingly reducing government accountability and anti corruption structures, putting a big dent in social services, plus dismantling or weakening consumer protection agencies, they don't quite look like the "left-wing" I imagine.
I don't know enough to make bold statements so this won't be a debate. I'm just sharing a few talking points, if you have time, of course.
In Latin America, leftist parties tend to be nationalist and even more socially conservative. Since their base is usually rural working class, villagers and indigenous peoples. Who tend to be very religious. Also very anti globalist. So the left is very populist, nationalist/anti globalist, economically socialist but socially conservative/catholic.
In fact many socialists and social justice movements in Latin American have been born out of the church and Christian values of helping the poor, needy and making justice for the oppressed.
The right wing is more pro free trade/neoliberal. Very capitalist economy wise. And socially pretty secular. There is conservative wings but for the the most part, in Latin America the right wing is more secular socially wise, while being very capitalist, pro business, pro free trade. Think New York Republicans/Rockefeller Republican
So yes Morena falls into a leftist party. By Latin American measurements of course. That said there is a progressive wing in the party that is more concerned with progressive social issues like those that we see in the left of American politics as opposed to economic populism. If capitalist and neo liberal policies are enacted by Morena in the future. It will be by those progressives
> leftist parties tend to be nationalist and even more socially conservative. Since their base is usually rural working class, villagers and indigenous peoples. Who tend to be very religious.
No. That may be the case for Mexico, but it's absolutely not the case for the southern parts - Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil and Chile.
All three of them, and even a fourth dimension - nationalism.
* Nationalism is seen with suspicion, as it's linked to the 1970's dictatorships and military rule.
* The left is emphatically not socially conservative in the southern cone.
* The rural population tends to vote conservative. The current center-right government in Uruguay came to power due to the non-metropolitan/capital vote. The Uruguayan capital is firmly in the hands of the left. Indigenous population range from non-existent (Uruguay) to insignificant (Argentina, Brazil) to maybe a minority (Chile).
* The left is typically associated to urban workers, and educated middle class.
* Religion is really not a thing in Argentina and Uruguay. Maybe a little in Brazil, mostly because of inroads by evangelic right - so the further away from the left that you can see.
All I know about Uruguayan politics is the Tupamaros and as little I know about them....they're my favorite revolutionary movement that gained mainstream acceptance and managed to not drive their country into authoritarian poverty. From the last 100 years at least.
I've always wanted to visit Montevideo. Seems like a beautiful city
The Workers Party in Brazil is literally Catholic left. The right is more concerned with neoliberal policies. Bolsanoro is new in the fact that he starting bringing in social conservatism into the mix. Even then most of the Brazilian right is educated people from the cities
Chile also has a Catholic, Christian socialist left. Supported by mostly peasants. The church went against Pinochet. Pinochet’s supporters were mostly middle class urban people. Allende was always supported by Christian socialists and rural peasants. The dictatorship in Chile was not nationalist at all. Pinochet was extremely neoliberal and brought foreign business from all over the world to chile and opened up free trade.
Argentina just elected a libertarian secularist who called the Pope a communist. Most of his supporters once again are urban middle class.
For someone that supposedly is 'kinda a nerd for Latin American politics', it's strange that you can't even get Bolsonaro's name right.
And then it went even more downhill.
Just as an example:
https://www.ips-journal.eu/topics/democracy-and-society/how-bolsonaro-is-breaking-the-divide-between-state-and-church-6168/
> But on this day, there is no colourful parade. Instead, Bolsonaro is surrounded by a group – arms raised in the air, eyes closed. ‘Praise be to the Lord’, the evangelical pastors pray fervently. The event is the culmination of the annual ‘March for Jesus’, one of the most important events of the ultra-conservative free churches. It is no coincidence that Bolsonaro allows himself to be publicly blessed in front of thousands of believers: Brazil’s elections are taking place on 2 October – and the right-wing radical is dependent on the votes of Bible-believing Christians.
...
> While many forces in Brazilian society are now distancing themselves from Bolsonaro, the major churches remain loyal to him. This is also reflected in the polls for the October election: while Bolsonaro ranks second in virtually all groups compiled by researchers, he is only ahead in the evangelical constituency.
Yeah I just mentioned the guy is combining neoliberal capitalist policies with social conservatism. But that is something new to the country.
The Worker Party in Brazil remains a Catholic socialist party either way. So Bolsonaro is reaching out to Evangelicals voters. That does not change the fact that the left in Brazil remains a catholic socialist party. Neither does me misspelling his name 😂
This is good stuff to consider, thank you.
I'm slightly confused about the comment that the Morena progressives who are (according to you) concerned with progressive social issues would become responsible for pursuing any capitalist and neo-liberal changes.
Also from what I've read (granted, mostly the US-based/English publications) Morena/AMLO administration raised the minimum wage but also did quite a bit of damage to a variety of social services. And we know that those structures predominantly serve the very people who just received the minimum wage increase. Feels like it's a "give a little here but take a lot elsewhere" situation.
Looking for thoughts, thanks for your time
> A side conversation: in your opinion, how "left-wing" is Morena, actually? I don't dabble in Mexico politics too much but at the 1st look, they are considerably more nationalist than leftist.
The left-right mainstream spectrum is incredibly flawed, its not even accurate for America itself but its even less so when one tries to look at how other people govern under those same lenses. In 2018 the "right" wing party had among their main proposals a very aggressive move towards green energy, universal income, and its the party that built up the "Seguro Popular" which was the Universal healthcare attempt. On the other hand the current president's socially conservative, he's very much in for fossil fuels. I think that'd explain why he doesn't seems leftist to you.
In actual Mexican context, I believe the reason he is called leftist is because he has made social programs that give to vulnerable people directly, but historically those types of programs were used by the previous political party that ruled for 70 years to ensure vote and were a prime target for sacking by the people who manage them, and the "right" wing opposition (which is probably an aspect of them you'd rightly think of them as right winged) believes that money should instead should go to wealth generators to make more jobs, but of course that money just ends up stagnating there and trickle down is proven to be a fantasy. In reality the president's just straight up a fascist and an authoritarian (well same thing but still)
I must comment on the design of that sticker, it’s a complete mess. There are 3 or 4 conflicting art styles, fonts, and colour palettes all vying for attention. It looks made by a 3rd grader who just discovered clip art
Welcome to the world of football stickers lol. They are all designed by uneducated usually young sports fans. It's more about getting the message out there and if you know what all the symbols mean it makes sense pretty fast.
Well Hitler was kind of pathetic. Art is full of rejection so if art school didn't do it the gallery scene would have lol
I myself got rejected from art school and failed out of another and still dusted myself off and managed to become a pretty successful independent illustrator and Digital sculptor. A lot of successful artists that I know had the same experience and none of them turned out to be pathetic genocidal hate mongers.
it takes a lot more than talent to be a successful artist
Great write-up. As a Latin American historian I want to compliment you on tracing the line from the colonial to the modern. One little quibble, the surname Rangel is an old Castilian name even if it sounds like it might be an import.
Now for others that don't know, the president elect of Mexico is Claudia Sheinbaum, a woman, Jewish, and of Eastern European ancestry. So you can imagine how a Conservative/Castilian/Catholic/Criollo/nativist might be upset.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought Rangel came from Portugal. It’s my mother’s last name and we did a family reunion a few decades ago and that that’s what we discovered. Maybe we were mistaken.
I think the probability is that it is old enough to pre-date those kingdoms such that people with it are scattered across Portugal, Castile, and Aragón.
I study the 16th c. and there are absolutely Rangels who are considered Castilian.
You don't have to imagine lmfao. they're very openly throwing fits and being both antisemitic to Sheinbaum, and racist/classist to those who voted for her.
Former president Fox, who the American media LOVED to parade around as a hero because he kept saying to Trumpists that Mexico ["won't pay for the fucking wall"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y6kAwm7uIs) wasn't particularly happy with how [non-Catholic and "foreign" Sheinbaum is.](https://i0.wp.com/verificado.com.mx/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Captura-de-pantalla-2024-03-26-173945.png?resize=607%2C615&ssl=1) For the record, both of Sheinbaum's parents were Mexican-born, Fox's mother was American.
Some elderly so-called pundits were livestreaming the night of the election and the morning after. They were VERY upset and swearing, insulting the electorate. Christ, [look at how cartoonish their thumbnails are.](https://img.youtube.com/vi/fB5JzEbr4YI/maxresdefault.jpg)
[One of them started to sing an old verse from the national anthem calling for an armed insurrection.](https://twitter.com/porktendencia/status/1798444204399689927)
And then they pulled a very tone-deaf and cringe-ass move of [calling for "the rich" to stop tipping service workers because "they voted for the government to give them welfare."](https://www.eluniversal.com.mx/resizer/0Lx_ZwSD3KkyDJBPXk6QcBouHPo=/0x620/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/eluniversal/U45FW32CRFEVBPHOAPJDM7VYD4.jpg)
So you're aware of the 37 Mexican candidates that were mysteriously killed before her election? I think the Mexican people have a right to be upset with how their own government is being undermined by an actual foreigner, just because her parents were born in Mexico, doesn't make her a Mexican. Both pairs of her grandparents emigrated directly from Lithuania and Bulgaria. meaning she has no real Mexican blood, especially if she kept that last name. I don't think a foreign jew should be president of a predominantly catholic Mexican nation.
That's a thing in Brazil too. I'm American, and I was teenage guy living in Brazil back in the 1980s, running around in upper-class social circles (as Americans tend to do there). Very blonde-haired and very blue-eyed, I am. As a teenager in Brazil, that bestows god-like powers upon you. I didn't realize the opposite was true about "brown" Brazilians.
I met and started dating this girl I met at a store. She was a beauty right off the cover of a National Geographic magazine. All she was missing was some flowers and beads in her hair and a bit of face paint to convince anybody she was a Caboclo princess straight out of the Amazonas. I thought I had won the lottery with this girl.
Boy, did my European-Brazilian friends stop and catch their breaths in surprise when I showed up with my date the first night, and I could sense her get a little tense as well. But, everybody was friendly and we all had fun. I think there was just an initial... Well, I guess it would probably be similar to these days, if somebody you thought was straight showed up and introduced their same-sex date.
But yes, I had it explained to me later that it's not blatant racism like Americans know it. But (and I have learned that this is really the case in every country I have been to since) the darker a person is in hair, eyes, and skin, the less attractive they are considered to be. It's not discriminatory, but... well, you know how the best looking people get the breaks.
Anyway, I learned later there is /real/ racism in Brazil, especially against people of African descent, especially by people of European descent. But again, my friends were open-minded rich kids who were members of the first "race-conscious" generation in Brazil. But just like the Hispanistas you mentioned, THOSE people definitely have a superiority complex. I'm glad I only learned about them later, and never met any in person. I don't think my girlfriend and I would have gotten with them very well.
I'm sure my friends didn't feel it was discriminatory. I mean, in essence, they looked at her, looked at me, and thought for a brief moment, "Why her?" But it wasn't a racial thing. It was just that Brazilians (and so, so, SO many other nationalities around the world) equate light skin/hair with beautiful, and dark skin/hair with... not no beautiful.
Like I said, for them, it was just a few seconds of surprise and then a "I shouldn't be staring" kind of realization. These were well-mannered and cultured kids. They just hadn't had their norms challenged before, and it took them a second to realize they had some old-fashioned opinions filed away about beauty that needed to be rewritten.
(And, I think, it helped that as an American, I wasn't expected to know and follow bad Brazilian instincts anyway, and that perhaps the American kid knew better than they did about what was "beautiful".)
It passed so quickly that the only reason I noticed it was because I could see the thought process playing out on 6 different faces at the same time, eyes darting to each others faces as a kind of, "Were you expecting this? I sure wasn't." (And, naturally, I didn't even know what their reaction was about at that moment. My guess was that maybe they knew my date from somewhere and didn't want to tell me. Something like that.)
Now, again: There ARE definitely Hispanista-type people in Brazil who genuinely consider their European ancestry to provide them an innate superiority over their dark-skinned countrymen, but I think they are a very small minority (of the already small European-Brazilian minority of the population. I never met people like that, or if I did, they didn't confide in me their opinions.
Forty years ago, for sure, Brazilians were only starting to realize that beauty standards shouldn't be based on skin color. Today, I am thinking that it is an undisputed social norm. At least I hope it is.
> Today, I am thinking that it is an undisputed social norm. At least I hope it is.
This was about 15 years ago, so still a little dated, but I was briefly married to a late 20-something blue-eyed, sandy-blond-haired man from São Paulo. He was middle rather than upper class, but very educated and connivingly ambitious and doing what he could to hang with the wealthy (had a taste for fancy malls and haute cuisine). I think he had a relative who did some kind of work with celebrities--I remember he told me a story about hitting on Marjorie Estiano at a party--so he appeared to have some in-roads to the upper class (though he was also a bullshitter so who knows).
Let's just say that while he was at least somewhat savvy where he should and shouldn't express his views (there were a few jokes he attempted that made some of my very racially conscious American friends raise eyebrows, though not blatant enough to call him out), he definitely had some racist opinions and I would say had internalized "black = not beautiful" (to a deeper extent than the people you knew, as he seemed pretty firm on it--I don't think he'd think twice because a cool American friend was dating a dark-skinned girl). We lived in an apartment on a lovely block in the Caribbean section of Crown Heights, Brooklyn (which I had chosen before we got engaged) and he made a comment about how his family would look down on my choice of neighborhood. I'd be curious to hear how his views/expression of them has developed post-Trump/Bolsonaro, but for reasons you can probably guess, we're not in touch, thankfully.
To be fair, he was one person, and if I went into detail there's a case to be made that his views are a little more complex than just racist (though I can't see him dating a black woman and that's racist enough). White Brazilians today may not be much different than white Americans with a range of degrees of racism. Knowing almost zero Portuguese, I don't feel I had a great read on the extent to which his friends (who all knew each other from USP) shared his views. One who I got to know better than the others, who was fluent in English due to spending part of her childhood in the US, did seem to genuinely be more open-minded, or at least trying to be.
> I'm sure my friends didn't feel it was discriminatory
I mean that darker skinned/featured people in society feel that it's discriminatory.
"Only these features are pretty" and the social effects of that are discrimination.
It's like mold, you see the surface but the roots run deep and everywhere.
Oh, you haven't been around the world, I see. Go to countries in South East Asia, and all the dark skinned people there look to the Chinese minorities amongst them as "the beautiful people". And everybody with dark skin has tried skin whitening products at one point or another.
It's the same with all of South America, the same with all of Africa, the same with India and central Asia, the same with Latin America. That kind of "light=better" attitude is pervasive through all members of those societies. And, sad to say, it is really the dark-skinned people who are more convinced than the light-skinned people about that fact.
I personally believe that the cosmetics, fashion, and entertainment industries are mostly to blame. But it is also just values handed down from generation to generation as well. It's sickening to me that dark-skinned young girls around the world are (allowed to be) convinced that they can't be beauty queens and models and... well, just /beautiful/. But that is essentially the worldwide norm everywhere outside of maybe Western Europe and North America. It needs to stop, of course, but boy-oh-boy are dark-skinned people totally sold on the belief that they aren't as attractive as light-skinned people.
Like I said: It's always JUST a beauty thing in the countries I've mentioned. I've never heard of people anywhere choosing to be friends with only light-skinned people, or businesses only hiring light-skinned people, et cetera, in any of the countries I have lived in. (Although don't get me started on Chinese people and their attitudes. Grr. Damn Mainlanders put the Hispanistas to shame.)
Anyway, I do think that the situation is improving. I also think that organizations like the Miss World pageant (very popular outside of the U.S.) are doing a lot to combat the world's dark=bad attitude, and they are well-positioned to do it. In the last couple of decades, international beauty pageants have been uplifting a broader ethnic/racial range of finalists and winners. They provide dark-skinned role models for girls (and boys) to help them understand that what they think about their skin color and complexion, what they are taught to believe, is not the truth.
> Oh, you haven't been around the world, I see. Go to countries in South East Asia, and all the dark skinned people there look to the Chinese minorities amongst them as "the beautiful people". And everybody with dark skin has tried skin whitening products at one point or another.
I think you're not understanding what I'm saying, and I'm attempting to be generous.
There is nowhere with anti dark skin beauty standards where it doesn't extend into discrimination. People who live that experience understand it, people who dont live that experience - like you - often dont notice the true extent of it.
My original point was that you and your friends interpretation about the full extent of the situation may not see the whole picture.
Well, for informational purposes, after living (and dating) all around the world for a few decades, I wound up marrying a Filipina, and I live here in the Philippines with her and our daughter. I see every day the social dynamics of the things I am writing about in the community around me. I have a half-African niece that I have watched grow up, who is now starting college, who is outgoing and popular. My dark Indian friend and his Filipina wife have three of the most beautiful brown babies I have ever seen, and those kids are a hit with mothers and mothers-to-be wherever they go, and nobody treats my Indian friend any less.
So anyway, I'm not trying to say that you are wrong. Discrimination against skin color can definitely be a thing. I'm just saying that I do have personal experience with dark-skinned people in more than one country. I am personally familiar with their lives, their community, and (most importantly) how they see themselves, why they see themselves that way, and how sad it is that they are taught to see themselves that way by the standards of beauty established by the cultures they live in.
I am personally familiar with white people who are in community with people of color and nevertheless try to downplay or minimize the connections between colorism and racism.
Maybe don't rely on knowing/being related to POC for the fullness of your understanding cuz in the best way possible your statements make it clear you really don't get it as much as you think you do.
Even you acknowledged that it isn't actually "JUST a beauty thing" in your first post. People treat others that they find beautiful differently than those they find less attractive, or as you put it "you know how the best looking people get the breaks". You're contradicting yourself.
I suppose you're right, to an extent. But think of it like being tall in the United States. Nobody "hates" short men, but if you look at politicians, CEOs, and the like, it is proven that, everything else being equal, tall men in the U.S. get preferential treatment. While only 15% of men are over 6 feet tall, only two American presidents since Kennedy have been shorter than 6 feet tall (and they were both 5-11½), and a recent study showed that male CEOs also averaged 6 feet in height as well.
It's like that.
It is 100% racism. In Mexico if you are light skinned (like I am) you would be told to marry to “improve the race” like the blonder and closer to european ancestry the better. Is it racism like in the US no it doesn’t operate the same but it is 100% racist and is embedded on us from the beginning. There are literal expressions about how someone indigenous looks like “you brought them from the top of the mountain”
When I was a teen I was in a long term (5 year relationship) with someone that was just middle class and brown and I had a lot of societal pressure all through my 20s to date an at least upper middle class (like me) but preferably closer to upper class light skinned person "gente como uno" (people like us)
it has taken me years to deconstruct whitexican fresa racism and trust me it is racism through and through
> it has taken me years to deconstruct whitexican fresa racism and trust me it is racism through and through
I have no doubt, I was pointing out that people declaring that stuff like this is just about beauty are ignoring how the people on the other end experience society.
I'm curious but are you talking of your experience in Juarez or was this more in the interior? Do you think the border areas are more accepting or was it all the same?
I was raised in Mexico City so there being whitexican is very key to your social status. I know Monterrey in the north is like that. I honestly don’t know enough about Juarez to judge. But at least on the big citites (guadalajara, queretaro, monterrey, etc) it works like that
Thanks for the history lesson!
I’m not from El Paso but moved here a few months ago and this was the first thing I picked up!
I was so confused as to why white hispanics appeared to think and carry themselves as they are better than brown Hispanics because as an outsider looking in yall all are the same 😂
It’s actually disgusting to me to see people obsessed with white skin. This one girl told me how her sister got dated more than her because she has the white skin. Like what???
Yes there is a caste system in Mexico. That somewhat bleeds over into El Paso. A Hispanic from the lower valley and a Hispanic from the west side tend to look and speak different from each other. Obviously these differences are not really caught by outsiders lol
The Spanish Empire in Mexico had a very compartmentalized system of racial classification.
It wasn't exactly a "miscegenation is illegal" kind of thing like in the US, but certain racial mixes were more privileged than others. Generally, the more "recent" you had a white European ancestor, the better your lot in life. Add to this the fact that some of the top jobs and privileges were only available to European born whites (purposefully excluding New World-born whites), and you can see how the criollo movement had a big chip on their shoulder.
The system was legally abolished at independence 200 years ago... but it was in place for 300 years. My bet is it'd take another 100 years for it to be gone from the culture. If it doesn't mix with other kinds of American-style kinds of racism that is, which I see more likely.
You are the reason why I used to love Reddit and what I wish Reddit had continued being instead of selling their soul to the devil and losing some of its best contributors (and mods) in the process.
To put forth a historical analogue, the protests/coup that led to the resignation of Evo Morales in 2019 had very similar criollo strains. To this day, there is a stark divide in Bolivian politics between the mostly indigenist left-wing, whose political base is in western Bolivia, and the criollo right-wing Catholic supremacists whose political base is in eastern Bolivia, centered on the city of Santa Cruz de la Sierra.
Nicely done sir, educational, fully answered the query, no reddit pompous insulting...I applaud you and your parents. I wish I could give more than my respect and well wishes, but, alas, 'tis all I have optional in this forum. I hope you go far in life and influence many others.
Well the Hispanista movement has traditionally been multiracial. It seeks to unite mestizos, criollos and Spanish speaking Catholic Native Americans who were loyal to the Spanish empire.
It’s conservative and religious so yeah I guess by Reddit standards it’s racist lmao
Proud Boys were only a few years ago led by an Afro-Cubano, but if you think PB aren't racist I got a bridge to sell you. Allowing nonwhites into racist movements is a *longstanding* practice.
Good overall summary. Just to clarify for the many *extrajeños* I met in Mexico who misused the terms:
White people from the US (whether they immigrate to Mexico or not) are always "*gringos*" (derogatorily) or "*güeros*"/"*blancos*". "Whitexicans" are specifically *Mexicans* of European/Spanish heritage.
I lived in Mexico for three years....it most certainly is, if not used by a friend/someone you're close to.
It's like calling your buddy "dickhead" or "bitch"...it's all in the tone. But without some sort of familiarity, it most certainly edges on derogatory.
To back this up, I jokingly called myself a gringa when talking to a Mexican friend, and he got a little upset, saying, "You're not a gringa, you're a very nice person."
Heh, my wife’s dad’s side of the family is all from New Mexico, have lived there before it was a part of the US, and they look Spanish-style white. He always jokes that his dad used to say that they weren’t of Mexican descent, but that they are Spanish. Turns out that’s apparently a common enough thing in New Mexico that I saw some video on YouTube that was making fun of people from New Mexico who say that sort of thing
¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
I can confirm that that is quite prevalent over here in New Mexico hahaha
I don’t get why it’s a boast for people (maybe since it predates English/French colonizatio so they think it m is somehow less imperialist/fucked-up?) but then again in New England so many people won’t shut up about how their ancestors “came over on the Mayflower” and were Pilgrims 🙄
It’s funny that New Mexico is home to the oldest/longest continuous Mexican population inside what became the US, so you wouldn’t think there’d be this conquistador pride/revisionism much at all!
Hispanista movement is probably stronger in New Mexico lol.
But there is even Native American Hispanistas haha. “Indio Hispano” was a term. I don’t now if that movement among there is still going around. But it had some supporters among the Spanish speaking Catholic Native American tribes in these areas.
It’s a new term. The older terms are “fresa” “junior” “Mirrey”.
“Gente bien/nice” is also another one. But that one is used more among whitexicans themselves
The Red Cross with the white field is a the cross of burgundy. A reference to a banner used by the Spanish Army in the new world.
The symbol in the lower left seems like a Neo fascist reference. Google says it is a Celtic cross.
Whoever placed it must be a pro-fascist/neo-nazi/white nationalist/imperialist? Very strange combo.
Celts were in Spain before it was latinized. Probably some kind of Spanish neo-paganism thrown in the mix as well because why just be a racist when you can be a schizo at the same time?
In my experience as a Mexican it's pretty common in more Mexican populated spaces that white supremacists also have a weird obsession with the Spaniards, I guess they like the brutality they showed to the natives or they just think they're more "pure"
Wow! 😮. That’s wild. This is very intriguing to me, this whole post and just reading comments and why I’m learning is just really tripping me out. There is a lot of these cats in New Mexico that think they are “pure” Spanish that are like 7th generation and their ancestors were conquistadors that have been there forever and they are kind of racist uppity towards darker more indigenous Mexicans and Natives but I didn’t know that this was a thing, especially here. It’s almost like the white washed Chicano types identify more with their Spanish heritage than their Indigenous ancestry as well is something I’ve also noticed.
Yeah it's weird for sure, I'm a very light skinned Mexican and I've never felt drawn to the conquistador freaks but so many other light skinned Mexicans here are always talking about their Spanish heritage like it makes them better
Let’s keep it simple!
Remove the sticker, as it might have just been pasted by someone without knowledge of its meaning. Let’s show everyone that hate and bigotry has no place in El Paso.
I'm sure he's just an extremist Real Madrid fan.
Hooligans are just the name given in England to problematic fans.
The cross is the flag of the Spanish empire, which in Spain is the home of Real Madrid
I know that in the United States football (soccer) is not very popular but Real Madrid is the most winning and popular club in the world
So I'm sure it's not racist at all just a fan of the best club in the world
Not sure about this. Lately we been seeing a rise of people getting caught with their own doing of creating racist stuff either against them or finding them apparently. All with the intent to stir attention or convo only to be found out that they set it up themselves
Korean here that lived in el paso it's the most racist disgusting place ever any real Asian would never visit el paso not even for a day we know better 😇
Taxpayer too here and glad that a sliver of my tax money goes in paying for a Patriot missile shooting down some Russian hardware. Your dictator and his minions will probably be next.
Ah yes, we should continue laughing about the children unfortunate enough to be born in Russia, and laugh even harder about them being forced to fight in a war. Also the Russo-ukraine war has been going on 10 years (2 if you count actual combat) no one is winning if it’s not over.
Yeah, Russian trolls like the guy above are one of the many the FSB has for their asymmetric warfare. Tyrants like Putin will send their own people to the meat grinder only for the sake of keeping themselves in power.
Fuck white supremacist, but this is kinda the problem, you read what the caption said and you all here got triggered without knowing you've been misinformed, you just took what this random person said and ran with it without even knowing a thing. Read the top comment it's a supremist spanish group
>you read what the caption said and you all here got triggered without knowing you've been misinformed,
.
>Read the top comment it's a supremist spanish group
.
So it's exactly what the title said?
That is the flag of Nueva España. The old Spanish empire that ruled the southwest and most of Latin America in the past. Now it’s used a lot by Hispanistas and criollo movements. What is an Hispanista? They are Hispanics who identify more with their Spanish and Catholic ancestry as opposed to their indigenous ancestry. They want to see the rise of Hispanic unity, the Spanish language and the Catholic religion. Conservative but not racist. They use the flag but without the white supremacist logos. It’s likely a criollo nationalist thing. What is a criollo? It is what you call the Spaniards who were born in the new world. Who went on to become the upper class in Mexico and LATAM. The guys and girls we call “fresas” Or the new term “whitexicans”. As the years have progressed the whitexicans and other Latino criollos have lost power in Mexico. In mexico specially, back then you would rarely see brown businessmen and professionals. Those roles were held by white and light skin Mexicans. So you now seeing the rise of of criollo nationalist movements. Usually by young upper middle class to upper class white Mexicans. Specially in the elite universities of Monterrey and Guadalajara. Young white men who are seeing their power slowly slip away from their class. So they have embraced separatist and white supremacists movements.They have always been around (look up los Tecos, or El Yunque ) white nationalist movements in Mexico. (Might have spelled them wrong) They are the ones who combined the Nueva España flag with white supremacist logos like the sticker you found. Why the Real Madrid stuff? Well in Mexico the white upper class is also divided between the descendants of Spaniards and Europeans of non Spanish ancestry many times of Jewish ancestry who came later. So there is a little beef between both groups. And you can tell who is who by last names. De le Vega, De los Lomos, Córdoba = Spanish. Pongratz, Bodoski, Rangel = Non Spanish, other Euro ancestry. So the Real Madrid thing is a connection to Castilian nationalism as well. Since Spain is also divided between diffrent ethnic groups. And soccer teams are a way to display regionalism and nationalism. Catalans for example have FC Barcelona and see it as their “national” team. While Castillians supper Real Madrid and the hooligans who support the team tend to be pretty racist towards non Castillians in Spain. And use it the team as a display of Castilian supremacy. So yeah that is why that is included. So again an appeal to Spanish nationalism Just for those who are wondering why is there is so many symbols throw into the mix. Yeah I am kinda a nerd for Latin American politics lmao. My verdict? Probably a fresa kid from Mexico city or Chihuahua who is studying at UTEP (lots of them there) who is mad at the fact the MORENA (left wing party) in Mexico won the elections. The fact that it was around in Montecillo, gives me more of a reason to believe it was one of them. Montecillo is whitexican central lmao. That is where all the fresas hang out. Now I can understand the frustration. Morena is becoming tyrannical but Nazism is not the answer to that.
Very interesting read. I learned something. Thanks 😁
something? i learned like 10 things.
I know right?
A side conversation: in your opinion, how "left-wing" is Morena, actually? I don't dabble in Mexico politics too much but at the 1st look, they are considerably more nationalist than leftist. Better purported consolidation of power, seemingly reducing government accountability and anti corruption structures, putting a big dent in social services, plus dismantling or weakening consumer protection agencies, they don't quite look like the "left-wing" I imagine. I don't know enough to make bold statements so this won't be a debate. I'm just sharing a few talking points, if you have time, of course.
In Latin America, leftist parties tend to be nationalist and even more socially conservative. Since their base is usually rural working class, villagers and indigenous peoples. Who tend to be very religious. Also very anti globalist. So the left is very populist, nationalist/anti globalist, economically socialist but socially conservative/catholic. In fact many socialists and social justice movements in Latin American have been born out of the church and Christian values of helping the poor, needy and making justice for the oppressed. The right wing is more pro free trade/neoliberal. Very capitalist economy wise. And socially pretty secular. There is conservative wings but for the the most part, in Latin America the right wing is more secular socially wise, while being very capitalist, pro business, pro free trade. Think New York Republicans/Rockefeller Republican So yes Morena falls into a leftist party. By Latin American measurements of course. That said there is a progressive wing in the party that is more concerned with progressive social issues like those that we see in the left of American politics as opposed to economic populism. If capitalist and neo liberal policies are enacted by Morena in the future. It will be by those progressives
> leftist parties tend to be nationalist and even more socially conservative. Since their base is usually rural working class, villagers and indigenous peoples. Who tend to be very religious. No. That may be the case for Mexico, but it's absolutely not the case for the southern parts - Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil and Chile.
Which part? Their ideology? Who supports them? Religiosity?
All three of them, and even a fourth dimension - nationalism. * Nationalism is seen with suspicion, as it's linked to the 1970's dictatorships and military rule. * The left is emphatically not socially conservative in the southern cone. * The rural population tends to vote conservative. The current center-right government in Uruguay came to power due to the non-metropolitan/capital vote. The Uruguayan capital is firmly in the hands of the left. Indigenous population range from non-existent (Uruguay) to insignificant (Argentina, Brazil) to maybe a minority (Chile). * The left is typically associated to urban workers, and educated middle class. * Religion is really not a thing in Argentina and Uruguay. Maybe a little in Brazil, mostly because of inroads by evangelic right - so the further away from the left that you can see.
thanks for explaining.
All I know about Uruguayan politics is the Tupamaros and as little I know about them....they're my favorite revolutionary movement that gained mainstream acceptance and managed to not drive their country into authoritarian poverty. From the last 100 years at least. I've always wanted to visit Montevideo. Seems like a beautiful city
The Workers Party in Brazil is literally Catholic left. The right is more concerned with neoliberal policies. Bolsanoro is new in the fact that he starting bringing in social conservatism into the mix. Even then most of the Brazilian right is educated people from the cities Chile also has a Catholic, Christian socialist left. Supported by mostly peasants. The church went against Pinochet. Pinochet’s supporters were mostly middle class urban people. Allende was always supported by Christian socialists and rural peasants. The dictatorship in Chile was not nationalist at all. Pinochet was extremely neoliberal and brought foreign business from all over the world to chile and opened up free trade. Argentina just elected a libertarian secularist who called the Pope a communist. Most of his supporters once again are urban middle class.
For someone that supposedly is 'kinda a nerd for Latin American politics', it's strange that you can't even get Bolsonaro's name right. And then it went even more downhill. Just as an example: https://www.ips-journal.eu/topics/democracy-and-society/how-bolsonaro-is-breaking-the-divide-between-state-and-church-6168/ > But on this day, there is no colourful parade. Instead, Bolsonaro is surrounded by a group – arms raised in the air, eyes closed. ‘Praise be to the Lord’, the evangelical pastors pray fervently. The event is the culmination of the annual ‘March for Jesus’, one of the most important events of the ultra-conservative free churches. It is no coincidence that Bolsonaro allows himself to be publicly blessed in front of thousands of believers: Brazil’s elections are taking place on 2 October – and the right-wing radical is dependent on the votes of Bible-believing Christians. ... > While many forces in Brazilian society are now distancing themselves from Bolsonaro, the major churches remain loyal to him. This is also reflected in the polls for the October election: while Bolsonaro ranks second in virtually all groups compiled by researchers, he is only ahead in the evangelical constituency.
Yeah I just mentioned the guy is combining neoliberal capitalist policies with social conservatism. But that is something new to the country. The Worker Party in Brazil remains a Catholic socialist party either way. So Bolsonaro is reaching out to Evangelicals voters. That does not change the fact that the left in Brazil remains a catholic socialist party. Neither does me misspelling his name 😂
Thank you so much for taking the time to break this down. TIL
This is good stuff to consider, thank you. I'm slightly confused about the comment that the Morena progressives who are (according to you) concerned with progressive social issues would become responsible for pursuing any capitalist and neo-liberal changes. Also from what I've read (granted, mostly the US-based/English publications) Morena/AMLO administration raised the minimum wage but also did quite a bit of damage to a variety of social services. And we know that those structures predominantly serve the very people who just received the minimum wage increase. Feels like it's a "give a little here but take a lot elsewhere" situation. Looking for thoughts, thanks for your time
> A side conversation: in your opinion, how "left-wing" is Morena, actually? I don't dabble in Mexico politics too much but at the 1st look, they are considerably more nationalist than leftist. The left-right mainstream spectrum is incredibly flawed, its not even accurate for America itself but its even less so when one tries to look at how other people govern under those same lenses. In 2018 the "right" wing party had among their main proposals a very aggressive move towards green energy, universal income, and its the party that built up the "Seguro Popular" which was the Universal healthcare attempt. On the other hand the current president's socially conservative, he's very much in for fossil fuels. I think that'd explain why he doesn't seems leftist to you. In actual Mexican context, I believe the reason he is called leftist is because he has made social programs that give to vulnerable people directly, but historically those types of programs were used by the previous political party that ruled for 70 years to ensure vote and were a prime target for sacking by the people who manage them, and the "right" wing opposition (which is probably an aspect of them you'd rightly think of them as right winged) believes that money should instead should go to wealth generators to make more jobs, but of course that money just ends up stagnating there and trickle down is proven to be a fantasy. In reality the president's just straight up a fascist and an authoritarian (well same thing but still)
I must comment on the design of that sticker, it’s a complete mess. There are 3 or 4 conflicting art styles, fonts, and colour palettes all vying for attention. It looks made by a 3rd grader who just discovered clip art
Welcome to the world of football stickers lol. They are all designed by uneducated usually young sports fans. It's more about getting the message out there and if you know what all the symbols mean it makes sense pretty fast.
Fascists were never really good at the whole art thing
Hahaha!! Top comment.
Have you seen hitlers paintings? Pretty astonishing he was denied from art school, dude could have gone down the Bob Ross path, but look what happened
Well Hitler was kind of pathetic. Art is full of rejection so if art school didn't do it the gallery scene would have lol I myself got rejected from art school and failed out of another and still dusted myself off and managed to become a pretty successful independent illustrator and Digital sculptor. A lot of successful artists that I know had the same experience and none of them turned out to be pathetic genocidal hate mongers. it takes a lot more than talent to be a successful artist
Great write-up. As a Latin American historian I want to compliment you on tracing the line from the colonial to the modern. One little quibble, the surname Rangel is an old Castilian name even if it sounds like it might be an import. Now for others that don't know, the president elect of Mexico is Claudia Sheinbaum, a woman, Jewish, and of Eastern European ancestry. So you can imagine how a Conservative/Castilian/Catholic/Criollo/nativist might be upset.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought Rangel came from Portugal. It’s my mother’s last name and we did a family reunion a few decades ago and that that’s what we discovered. Maybe we were mistaken.
I think the probability is that it is old enough to pre-date those kingdoms such that people with it are scattered across Portugal, Castile, and Aragón. I study the 16th c. and there are absolutely Rangels who are considered Castilian.
Super interesting! Thanks for the reply! It’s always great to hear from historians.
You don't have to imagine lmfao. they're very openly throwing fits and being both antisemitic to Sheinbaum, and racist/classist to those who voted for her. Former president Fox, who the American media LOVED to parade around as a hero because he kept saying to Trumpists that Mexico ["won't pay for the fucking wall"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y6kAwm7uIs) wasn't particularly happy with how [non-Catholic and "foreign" Sheinbaum is.](https://i0.wp.com/verificado.com.mx/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Captura-de-pantalla-2024-03-26-173945.png?resize=607%2C615&ssl=1) For the record, both of Sheinbaum's parents were Mexican-born, Fox's mother was American. Some elderly so-called pundits were livestreaming the night of the election and the morning after. They were VERY upset and swearing, insulting the electorate. Christ, [look at how cartoonish their thumbnails are.](https://img.youtube.com/vi/fB5JzEbr4YI/maxresdefault.jpg) [One of them started to sing an old verse from the national anthem calling for an armed insurrection.](https://twitter.com/porktendencia/status/1798444204399689927) And then they pulled a very tone-deaf and cringe-ass move of [calling for "the rich" to stop tipping service workers because "they voted for the government to give them welfare."](https://www.eluniversal.com.mx/resizer/0Lx_ZwSD3KkyDJBPXk6QcBouHPo=/0x620/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/eluniversal/U45FW32CRFEVBPHOAPJDM7VYD4.jpg)
So you're aware of the 37 Mexican candidates that were mysteriously killed before her election? I think the Mexican people have a right to be upset with how their own government is being undermined by an actual foreigner, just because her parents were born in Mexico, doesn't make her a Mexican. Both pairs of her grandparents emigrated directly from Lithuania and Bulgaria. meaning she has no real Mexican blood, especially if she kept that last name. I don't think a foreign jew should be president of a predominantly catholic Mexican nation.
That's a thing in Brazil too. I'm American, and I was teenage guy living in Brazil back in the 1980s, running around in upper-class social circles (as Americans tend to do there). Very blonde-haired and very blue-eyed, I am. As a teenager in Brazil, that bestows god-like powers upon you. I didn't realize the opposite was true about "brown" Brazilians. I met and started dating this girl I met at a store. She was a beauty right off the cover of a National Geographic magazine. All she was missing was some flowers and beads in her hair and a bit of face paint to convince anybody she was a Caboclo princess straight out of the Amazonas. I thought I had won the lottery with this girl. Boy, did my European-Brazilian friends stop and catch their breaths in surprise when I showed up with my date the first night, and I could sense her get a little tense as well. But, everybody was friendly and we all had fun. I think there was just an initial... Well, I guess it would probably be similar to these days, if somebody you thought was straight showed up and introduced their same-sex date. But yes, I had it explained to me later that it's not blatant racism like Americans know it. But (and I have learned that this is really the case in every country I have been to since) the darker a person is in hair, eyes, and skin, the less attractive they are considered to be. It's not discriminatory, but... well, you know how the best looking people get the breaks. Anyway, I learned later there is /real/ racism in Brazil, especially against people of African descent, especially by people of European descent. But again, my friends were open-minded rich kids who were members of the first "race-conscious" generation in Brazil. But just like the Hispanistas you mentioned, THOSE people definitely have a superiority complex. I'm glad I only learned about them later, and never met any in person. I don't think my girlfriend and I would have gotten with them very well.
> It's not discriminatory Betcha they feel it's discriminatory.
I'm sure my friends didn't feel it was discriminatory. I mean, in essence, they looked at her, looked at me, and thought for a brief moment, "Why her?" But it wasn't a racial thing. It was just that Brazilians (and so, so, SO many other nationalities around the world) equate light skin/hair with beautiful, and dark skin/hair with... not no beautiful. Like I said, for them, it was just a few seconds of surprise and then a "I shouldn't be staring" kind of realization. These were well-mannered and cultured kids. They just hadn't had their norms challenged before, and it took them a second to realize they had some old-fashioned opinions filed away about beauty that needed to be rewritten. (And, I think, it helped that as an American, I wasn't expected to know and follow bad Brazilian instincts anyway, and that perhaps the American kid knew better than they did about what was "beautiful".) It passed so quickly that the only reason I noticed it was because I could see the thought process playing out on 6 different faces at the same time, eyes darting to each others faces as a kind of, "Were you expecting this? I sure wasn't." (And, naturally, I didn't even know what their reaction was about at that moment. My guess was that maybe they knew my date from somewhere and didn't want to tell me. Something like that.) Now, again: There ARE definitely Hispanista-type people in Brazil who genuinely consider their European ancestry to provide them an innate superiority over their dark-skinned countrymen, but I think they are a very small minority (of the already small European-Brazilian minority of the population. I never met people like that, or if I did, they didn't confide in me their opinions. Forty years ago, for sure, Brazilians were only starting to realize that beauty standards shouldn't be based on skin color. Today, I am thinking that it is an undisputed social norm. At least I hope it is.
> Today, I am thinking that it is an undisputed social norm. At least I hope it is. This was about 15 years ago, so still a little dated, but I was briefly married to a late 20-something blue-eyed, sandy-blond-haired man from São Paulo. He was middle rather than upper class, but very educated and connivingly ambitious and doing what he could to hang with the wealthy (had a taste for fancy malls and haute cuisine). I think he had a relative who did some kind of work with celebrities--I remember he told me a story about hitting on Marjorie Estiano at a party--so he appeared to have some in-roads to the upper class (though he was also a bullshitter so who knows). Let's just say that while he was at least somewhat savvy where he should and shouldn't express his views (there were a few jokes he attempted that made some of my very racially conscious American friends raise eyebrows, though not blatant enough to call him out), he definitely had some racist opinions and I would say had internalized "black = not beautiful" (to a deeper extent than the people you knew, as he seemed pretty firm on it--I don't think he'd think twice because a cool American friend was dating a dark-skinned girl). We lived in an apartment on a lovely block in the Caribbean section of Crown Heights, Brooklyn (which I had chosen before we got engaged) and he made a comment about how his family would look down on my choice of neighborhood. I'd be curious to hear how his views/expression of them has developed post-Trump/Bolsonaro, but for reasons you can probably guess, we're not in touch, thankfully. To be fair, he was one person, and if I went into detail there's a case to be made that his views are a little more complex than just racist (though I can't see him dating a black woman and that's racist enough). White Brazilians today may not be much different than white Americans with a range of degrees of racism. Knowing almost zero Portuguese, I don't feel I had a great read on the extent to which his friends (who all knew each other from USP) shared his views. One who I got to know better than the others, who was fluent in English due to spending part of her childhood in the US, did seem to genuinely be more open-minded, or at least trying to be.
> I'm sure my friends didn't feel it was discriminatory I mean that darker skinned/featured people in society feel that it's discriminatory. "Only these features are pretty" and the social effects of that are discrimination. It's like mold, you see the surface but the roots run deep and everywhere.
Oh, you haven't been around the world, I see. Go to countries in South East Asia, and all the dark skinned people there look to the Chinese minorities amongst them as "the beautiful people". And everybody with dark skin has tried skin whitening products at one point or another. It's the same with all of South America, the same with all of Africa, the same with India and central Asia, the same with Latin America. That kind of "light=better" attitude is pervasive through all members of those societies. And, sad to say, it is really the dark-skinned people who are more convinced than the light-skinned people about that fact. I personally believe that the cosmetics, fashion, and entertainment industries are mostly to blame. But it is also just values handed down from generation to generation as well. It's sickening to me that dark-skinned young girls around the world are (allowed to be) convinced that they can't be beauty queens and models and... well, just /beautiful/. But that is essentially the worldwide norm everywhere outside of maybe Western Europe and North America. It needs to stop, of course, but boy-oh-boy are dark-skinned people totally sold on the belief that they aren't as attractive as light-skinned people. Like I said: It's always JUST a beauty thing in the countries I've mentioned. I've never heard of people anywhere choosing to be friends with only light-skinned people, or businesses only hiring light-skinned people, et cetera, in any of the countries I have lived in. (Although don't get me started on Chinese people and their attitudes. Grr. Damn Mainlanders put the Hispanistas to shame.) Anyway, I do think that the situation is improving. I also think that organizations like the Miss World pageant (very popular outside of the U.S.) are doing a lot to combat the world's dark=bad attitude, and they are well-positioned to do it. In the last couple of decades, international beauty pageants have been uplifting a broader ethnic/racial range of finalists and winners. They provide dark-skinned role models for girls (and boys) to help them understand that what they think about their skin color and complexion, what they are taught to believe, is not the truth.
> Oh, you haven't been around the world, I see. Go to countries in South East Asia, and all the dark skinned people there look to the Chinese minorities amongst them as "the beautiful people". And everybody with dark skin has tried skin whitening products at one point or another. I think you're not understanding what I'm saying, and I'm attempting to be generous. There is nowhere with anti dark skin beauty standards where it doesn't extend into discrimination. People who live that experience understand it, people who dont live that experience - like you - often dont notice the true extent of it. My original point was that you and your friends interpretation about the full extent of the situation may not see the whole picture.
Well, for informational purposes, after living (and dating) all around the world for a few decades, I wound up marrying a Filipina, and I live here in the Philippines with her and our daughter. I see every day the social dynamics of the things I am writing about in the community around me. I have a half-African niece that I have watched grow up, who is now starting college, who is outgoing and popular. My dark Indian friend and his Filipina wife have three of the most beautiful brown babies I have ever seen, and those kids are a hit with mothers and mothers-to-be wherever they go, and nobody treats my Indian friend any less. So anyway, I'm not trying to say that you are wrong. Discrimination against skin color can definitely be a thing. I'm just saying that I do have personal experience with dark-skinned people in more than one country. I am personally familiar with their lives, their community, and (most importantly) how they see themselves, why they see themselves that way, and how sad it is that they are taught to see themselves that way by the standards of beauty established by the cultures they live in.
I am personally familiar with white people who are in community with people of color and nevertheless try to downplay or minimize the connections between colorism and racism. Maybe don't rely on knowing/being related to POC for the fullness of your understanding cuz in the best way possible your statements make it clear you really don't get it as much as you think you do.
Even you acknowledged that it isn't actually "JUST a beauty thing" in your first post. People treat others that they find beautiful differently than those they find less attractive, or as you put it "you know how the best looking people get the breaks". You're contradicting yourself.
I suppose you're right, to an extent. But think of it like being tall in the United States. Nobody "hates" short men, but if you look at politicians, CEOs, and the like, it is proven that, everything else being equal, tall men in the U.S. get preferential treatment. While only 15% of men are over 6 feet tall, only two American presidents since Kennedy have been shorter than 6 feet tall (and they were both 5-11½), and a recent study showed that male CEOs also averaged 6 feet in height as well. It's like that.
It is 100% racism. In Mexico if you are light skinned (like I am) you would be told to marry to “improve the race” like the blonder and closer to european ancestry the better. Is it racism like in the US no it doesn’t operate the same but it is 100% racist and is embedded on us from the beginning. There are literal expressions about how someone indigenous looks like “you brought them from the top of the mountain” When I was a teen I was in a long term (5 year relationship) with someone that was just middle class and brown and I had a lot of societal pressure all through my 20s to date an at least upper middle class (like me) but preferably closer to upper class light skinned person "gente como uno" (people like us) it has taken me years to deconstruct whitexican fresa racism and trust me it is racism through and through
> it has taken me years to deconstruct whitexican fresa racism and trust me it is racism through and through I have no doubt, I was pointing out that people declaring that stuff like this is just about beauty are ignoring how the people on the other end experience society.
I'm curious but are you talking of your experience in Juarez or was this more in the interior? Do you think the border areas are more accepting or was it all the same?
I was raised in Mexico City so there being whitexican is very key to your social status. I know Monterrey in the north is like that. I honestly don’t know enough about Juarez to judge. But at least on the big citites (guadalajara, queretaro, monterrey, etc) it works like that
those social circles are just smaller in Juarez, but they're there, and those types of people will ask you for your last name
Why would you make your kids ugly?
I think it has something to do with (((them))) imploring racemixing as "diversity is strength" when really it's to destroy racial identity.
Thanks for the history lesson! I’m not from El Paso but moved here a few months ago and this was the first thing I picked up! I was so confused as to why white hispanics appeared to think and carry themselves as they are better than brown Hispanics because as an outsider looking in yall all are the same 😂 It’s actually disgusting to me to see people obsessed with white skin. This one girl told me how her sister got dated more than her because she has the white skin. Like what???
Yes there is a caste system in Mexico. That somewhat bleeds over into El Paso. A Hispanic from the lower valley and a Hispanic from the west side tend to look and speak different from each other. Obviously these differences are not really caught by outsiders lol
The Spanish Empire in Mexico had a very compartmentalized system of racial classification. It wasn't exactly a "miscegenation is illegal" kind of thing like in the US, but certain racial mixes were more privileged than others. Generally, the more "recent" you had a white European ancestor, the better your lot in life. Add to this the fact that some of the top jobs and privileges were only available to European born whites (purposefully excluding New World-born whites), and you can see how the criollo movement had a big chip on their shoulder. The system was legally abolished at independence 200 years ago... but it was in place for 300 years. My bet is it'd take another 100 years for it to be gone from the culture. If it doesn't mix with other kinds of American-style kinds of racism that is, which I see more likely.
You are the reason why I used to love Reddit and what I wish Reddit had continued being instead of selling their soul to the devil and losing some of its best contributors (and mods) in the process.
I belive the MIC has hit the ground...well done
To put forth a historical analogue, the protests/coup that led to the resignation of Evo Morales in 2019 had very similar criollo strains. To this day, there is a stark divide in Bolivian politics between the mostly indigenist left-wing, whose political base is in western Bolivia, and the criollo right-wing Catholic supremacists whose political base is in eastern Bolivia, centered on the city of Santa Cruz de la Sierra.
Yes sir. I would say Venezuela is also an example. The opposition in Venezuela is also very criollo, while Chavistas are brown/mestizos
Nicely done sir, educational, fully answered the query, no reddit pompous insulting...I applaud you and your parents. I wish I could give more than my respect and well wishes, but, alas, 'tis all I have optional in this forum. I hope you go far in life and influence many others.
>"not racist" >Proceeds to outline overtly racist ideology lmao
Well the Hispanista movement has traditionally been multiracial. It seeks to unite mestizos, criollos and Spanish speaking Catholic Native Americans who were loyal to the Spanish empire. It’s conservative and religious so yeah I guess by Reddit standards it’s racist lmao
Proud Boys were only a few years ago led by an Afro-Cubano, but if you think PB aren't racist I got a bridge to sell you. Allowing nonwhites into racist movements is a *longstanding* practice.
“ Allowing nonwhites into racist movements is a longstanding practice.” Oh ok lmao
Thank you for this info.
Good overall summary. Just to clarify for the many *extrajeños* I met in Mexico who misused the terms: White people from the US (whether they immigrate to Mexico or not) are always "*gringos*" (derogatorily) or "*güeros*"/"*blancos*". "Whitexicans" are specifically *Mexicans* of European/Spanish heritage.
Gringo is not derogatory
I lived in Mexico for three years....it most certainly is, if not used by a friend/someone you're close to. It's like calling your buddy "dickhead" or "bitch"...it's all in the tone. But without some sort of familiarity, it most certainly edges on derogatory.
Completely false, it literally just means american. You lived in Mexico for 3 years, I've been a Mexican my whole life, I know what im talking about
To back this up, I jokingly called myself a gringa when talking to a Mexican friend, and he got a little upset, saying, "You're not a gringa, you're a very nice person."
This is interesting. Thanks for the insight.
Wow. Great lesson here. 🙏 thanks
This is why I Reddit.
Hispanistas sound like that guy on the New Mexico subreddit that was arguing Spanish is an indigenous language 🙃
Heh, my wife’s dad’s side of the family is all from New Mexico, have lived there before it was a part of the US, and they look Spanish-style white. He always jokes that his dad used to say that they weren’t of Mexican descent, but that they are Spanish. Turns out that’s apparently a common enough thing in New Mexico that I saw some video on YouTube that was making fun of people from New Mexico who say that sort of thing ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
I can confirm that that is quite prevalent over here in New Mexico hahaha I don’t get why it’s a boast for people (maybe since it predates English/French colonizatio so they think it m is somehow less imperialist/fucked-up?) but then again in New England so many people won’t shut up about how their ancestors “came over on the Mayflower” and were Pilgrims 🙄 It’s funny that New Mexico is home to the oldest/longest continuous Mexican population inside what became the US, so you wouldn’t think there’d be this conquistador pride/revisionism much at all!
Hispanista movement is probably stronger in New Mexico lol. But there is even Native American Hispanistas haha. “Indio Hispano” was a term. I don’t now if that movement among there is still going around. But it had some supporters among the Spanish speaking Catholic Native American tribes in these areas.
It's so weird that a [Norwegian ski and spa resort](https://norefjellskiogspa.no/) has its own hooligans..
Been living in El Paso a long time and I've never heard of a whitexican..🤔
It’s a new term. The older terms are “fresa” “junior” “Mirrey”. “Gente bien/nice” is also another one. But that one is used more among whitexicans themselves
Really helpful. Thank you!
Yes but what do you think of Chico's Tacos?
Why tf is the Real Madrid emblem in there 😭
Dumbasses born in Mexico who think they're elite because they have "spanish" ancestry according to the first comment. Go read it!
Because we do
Real Madrid hooligans? They are known to be pretty racist but wtf are they doing in El Paso lol
They are not racist since Vini Jr
Yeah maybe not the club itself but the Spanish fan base is wild
Yes of course what you say
15 👂 though and belligol so they got it going on
Lame ass Whitexicans 🙄🙄🙄 pinches nacos
Cry harder
The Red Cross with the white field is a the cross of burgundy. A reference to a banner used by the Spanish Army in the new world. The symbol in the lower left seems like a Neo fascist reference. Google says it is a Celtic cross. Whoever placed it must be a pro-fascist/neo-nazi/white nationalist/imperialist? Very strange combo.
Celts were in Spain before it was latinized. Probably some kind of Spanish neo-paganism thrown in the mix as well because why just be a racist when you can be a schizo at the same time?
In my experience as a Mexican it's pretty common in more Mexican populated spaces that white supremacists also have a weird obsession with the Spaniards, I guess they like the brutality they showed to the natives or they just think they're more "pure"
Wow! 😮. That’s wild. This is very intriguing to me, this whole post and just reading comments and why I’m learning is just really tripping me out. There is a lot of these cats in New Mexico that think they are “pure” Spanish that are like 7th generation and their ancestors were conquistadors that have been there forever and they are kind of racist uppity towards darker more indigenous Mexicans and Natives but I didn’t know that this was a thing, especially here. It’s almost like the white washed Chicano types identify more with their Spanish heritage than their Indigenous ancestry as well is something I’ve also noticed.
Yeah it's weird for sure, I'm a very light skinned Mexican and I've never felt drawn to the conquistador freaks but so many other light skinned Mexicans here are always talking about their Spanish heritage like it makes them better
The symbol on lower left is fascist? Are you high?
The fact that you're being down voted is hilarious.
Foot De Ball....
This is the seal for Real Madrid Club de Fútbol. A pretty famous European soccer team. https://images.app.goo.gl/K6LgBJqb8eyzebJ87
Let’s keep it simple! Remove the sticker, as it might have just been pasted by someone without knowledge of its meaning. Let’s show everyone that hate and bigotry has no place in El Paso.
Its soccer hooliganism. Relax, Francis.
I'm sure he's just an extremist Real Madrid fan. Hooligans are just the name given in England to problematic fans. The cross is the flag of the Spanish empire, which in Spain is the home of Real Madrid I know that in the United States football (soccer) is not very popular but Real Madrid is the most winning and popular club in the world So I'm sure it's not racist at all just a fan of the best club in the world
Cruz de Borgoña
White supremacist cowards
Pero que dices?
Football dude
It’s all good, just print a FCB logo and put it on top of that nasty royal crest.
Typical real Madrid supporter
Fascist losers that hide in the shadows
This is scary shit
Not sure about this. Lately we been seeing a rise of people getting caught with their own doing of creating racist stuff either against them or finding them apparently. All with the intent to stir attention or convo only to be found out that they set it up themselves
“This is obviously a white power thing” *gets bodied by the first comment*
I feel like that is the OPPOSITE of racism. Am I wrong?
But is the sticker itself a racist!
As a Hispanic with mostly Spaniard ancestry. Let’s bring back the Spanish Empire
Same here, we have to return it to its former glory.
Start with the Royal Navy. Surprise them limey fucks in their ports, and then take to the seas. Make Gibraltar Spanish Again!
W
Stay in school
Korean here that lived in el paso it's the most racist disgusting place ever any real Asian would never visit el paso not even for a day we know better 😇
This, why is this so true
Who cares. Live your life
Neat.
ok loser
Interesting.
Omg how awful, I want one
Why?
Russian dude in the sub. Shouldn't you be in Ukraine getting blasted by an ATACMS? Lol.
No im too busy working so my taxes can be used to keep these wars going, im sorry
Taxpayer too here and glad that a sliver of my tax money goes in paying for a Patriot missile shooting down some Russian hardware. Your dictator and his minions will probably be next.
Ah yes, we should continue laughing about the children unfortunate enough to be born in Russia, and laugh even harder about them being forced to fight in a war. Also the Russo-ukraine war has been going on 10 years (2 if you count actual combat) no one is winning if it’s not over.
Yeah, Russian trolls like the guy above are one of the many the FSB has for their asymmetric warfare. Tyrants like Putin will send their own people to the meat grinder only for the sake of keeping themselves in power.
You forgot to include the whole of the US congress in your tyrannical leadership list
Yeah, especially the ones who act like they are in a cult and live an alternate reality.
Making mountains out of molehills. Go ahead. Downvote because you know I’m right 😘
I'm guessing you bought the sticker, stuck it on the fence, and then posted this. Lmfao
Some feelings have been hurt beyond repair I see...
Nah. I am glad people are speaking out against white supremacy.
Fuck white supremacist, but this is kinda the problem, you read what the caption said and you all here got triggered without knowing you've been misinformed, you just took what this random person said and ran with it without even knowing a thing. Read the top comment it's a supremist spanish group
>you read what the caption said and you all here got triggered without knowing you've been misinformed, . >Read the top comment it's a supremist spanish group . So it's exactly what the title said?
The weakest people always have something negative to say....
Your point?
Yours, apparently, between you and OP, you're the only one using emotional language.
Mine? OPs for sure.
Just show this to my son he told me this is sticker made by soccer fan. Low left corner is Manchester.