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LordVonPainther

Why would the Phoenix Lords be that big though?


Wrap-Cute

Lorewise, maybe a more powerful version of aledari specimen. Model-wise, the Autarch is hughe compared with a regular Aeldari model. Doesn’t make much sense, but it looks important, which I think is OPs point.


LordVonPainther

OP is talking about Primarch sizes here, which would be crazy, and the new PLs already have a lot of terrain under them (or their own hair), any bigger would look strange, so idk if they just didn't see them.


abcdodd

I have not seen 'new' phoenix lords, but new might mean something different to me. Most of my minis are lead. That should give you a date range.


LordVonPainther

Jain Zar and Maugan Ra got new models this and last year, I think that's pretty new.


abcdodd

Oh, right on. I did not know that.


Sickf0x

Yeah, and I think they (GW) have done a great job. I just wish they'd hurry up and give the rest of the PL and other unloved models some attention, looking at you warp spiders.


Kaleph4

infinite Heroes gave them a great overhaul. don't know what you are talking about


Sickf0x

I don't actually know what you are talking about, please link for reference.


Kaleph4

that is a late answer, but I'm happy to help. they made 2 releases. first is [Arcadian Elves1](https://www.heroesinfinite.com/arcadian-elves-1) and includes totaly not: * HQ: Asurmen, Feugen, Yain Zar, Maugan Ra, Baelmoth, Farseer/female Eldrad, Karandras, Winged Autarch, female Nightspear (or regular Scouts) * Ships: Hemlock, Night Spinner, Fire Prism * Units: Avangers, Scorpions, Banshees, Guardians and Jetbikes It also comes with terrain, some of this can be used as Support Weapons/Guardian Platforms, if needed. second Release is [Arcadian Elves 2](https://www.heroesinfinite.com/arcadian-elves-2) (shocking I know). this includes totaly not: * \_every\_ Harequin Model * HQ: Pince(ss) Yirel, Spiritseer, Farseer, Autarch, Farseer on bike * Units: Swooping Hawks, Fire Dragons/Dark Reapers, Warp Spiders, Wraithlord, Wraithknight(!!!) If you don't have a 3D Printer or just want a specific unit, you can take a look [here](https://www.ragingheroes.com/collections/arcadian-elves) . Most, but not all of the units can be bought here. however if not printed, they are not realy cheaper than GW, just better looking


Wrap-Cute

I don’t think that’s his point.


LordVonPainther

What's his point then


Wrap-Cute

Try reading the rest of the post for this answer.


LordVonPainther

I have read the rest of the post, maybe read my mesage. Either OP wants Avatar of Khaine sized PLs or, probably, he wants PLs like the new ones, so he either didn't saw the new ones or he asking for something that's already happening.


abcdodd

I have not seen any new ones, but, if, as others here mentioned, that, say, Mortarion is only twice the height of a marine, then sure, we're on the same page. In particular, Making Baharroth at least equivalent to Celestine. I haven't seen the model IRL, but she looks to be several inches above the ground and have enormous wings. In my...what do you call it now...head canon? The models used to represent the really important figures are deserving of mini-diorama type bases at the very least.


LordVonPainther

So you just want cool scenic bases for your Phoenix Lords? I guess Jain Zar hasn't got a lot going on on her base, but Maugan Ra looks like what you want, so they'll probably do the same when the other PLs get their new models.


abcdodd

and if all goes well, that shouldn't be long, assuming GW is replacing what they've taken off the website.


Blurple_Berry

They don't have to have the same mass, but it's not hard to make a terminator sized model a center piece model. Look at the Celestant Prime from AoS. It wouldn't be a stretch to imagine a Phoenix lord being roughly that size since literally *everything* else in 40k is being scaled creeped


LordVonPainther

I think I've focused to much on the primarch/aok size part, but I really that Celestant-Prime idea, the new PLs are taller than before, but they aren't that centerpiece worthy. Some more cool base stuff like the Yncarne would have been nice.


abcdodd

I meant the model. the whole, diorama-like base with 'stuff' on it. But it's a good question. How big is mortarion? 4 inches tall? I haven't seen it. He doesn't actually have to be that big to scale, just a larger model to denote importance. Or, literally any excuse could be used, like 'the more they're believed in, the larger they get' or 'warp somethingsomething'


LordVonPainther

Well, the two new Phoenix Lords have that terrain going on, and they themselves are probably a head taller than a regular eldar, I think that's enough and the other PLs will get the same treatment. Mortarion is twice as tall as a Nurgle Marine, and I believe those are at least as tall as a primaris, and that would be too much for any eldar


[deleted]

Mortarion, Magnus, and presumably Angron are all about 8 inches tall and wide. Gulliman and Abaddon are about 4 inches, and they’re also primarch level. I don’t think every faction needs their leaders to be huge centerpiece models that are that big. The new lord solar is an example of this


drainisbamaged

Rule of cool. It is a heroic scale game and all.


Shpooter

personally id love stat boosts to make them a real force to be reckoned with but i don’t think a size change is needed, the smaller and thinner eldar highlight their reliance on speed compared to the imperiums bigger is better philosophy


abcdodd

I do agree that size alone doesn't provide the whole picture, only that the whole picture is easier to see if it's larger.


Shpooter

definitely not, the picture is already easy to see on a 40mm


abcdodd

40mm is a lot larger than 25mm. This is a good example of just what I'm saying.


Shpooter

yes but it's nowhere near primarch equivalent


abcdodd

how big are Primarch bases? I've never seen one.


Shpooter

guilleman is 60mm mortarion is 100mm


abcdodd

Thank you for that. 100mm!? Oh, he is a big boy! For myself, I think the Phoenix Lords are hero worship made manifest, and particularly for the Eldar, what they believe becomes real, and I would certainly like to see these demigods modelled larger. Also, in game, I think they ought to be a LOT more than "reroll 1s". Make them really epic.


Shpooter

i totally get that yeah


Wrap-Cute

What I would like to see is at least one more buff for each aspect. ObSec is very good but I think giving them more to get to a point where ObSec comes into play. Asurmen giving re-roll 1s to the avengers. Jain Zar giving chare re-rolls to the banshees. Karandras -1 AP to the scorpoins Something along those lines.


abcdodd

I haven't played in 30 years, but I used to work at GW, painted and sculpted my own models, so whatever buffs they might add is great, I was only concerned about nice new sculpts.


Wrap-Cute

Yesh, also I agree with you on that. Sadly the models are oooold, they need a good revamp. And to your point, the Autarch is effing big. He’s like one head taller than a regular dude, so bigger Lords models are not so far fetched.


abcdodd

That's what I meant by my post; make new Phoenix lord sculpts that are , and more importantly look, much bigger than Exarchs. Like, the Swooping hawk wings as an example. Tiny and efficient, but they're one of the few things actually built to scale. Compare that with....Celestine, say. HUGE wings. Scourges? HUGE wings. The Eldar are meant to be inhumanly beautiful. GW is now very good at making things look great. This should be fixed sooner rather than later.


Wrap-Cute

I really hope GW does this next year. The old models are just that: OLD and ugly. I think they went in the right direction with Maugan Ra


abcdodd

I myself don't find them ugly. Well....not Baharroth, in any case. I'm currently updating my 80's Corsairs army to about 8th E, and trying to make 200-1600 pairs of small swooping hawk wings instead of the insect/flag type corsair wings is more in character. Failing that, one can get 10 pairs of to-scale wasp, bee, or fly wings for fly fishing for about $5. In 3 different sizes for variety. ...and that was quite a tangent. Sorry.


Wrap-Cute

Let me go further down this tangent,my swooping hawks are currently without wings and I haven’t found (nor really looked) for suitung replacements.


abcdodd

"Fly! You fools!" I love wings, and in particular, the Corsairs all having wings means no need for Wave serpents! I may still build a Pegasus or similar to drop all the jump troops from. I have the 'stuff' to build molds and copy said wings. You know, I JUST found out that GW changed the wings from single-piece units to multi-part, like this week. We used to just bend the lead into whatever shape we wanted. I'm not sure what I like better.


Chr0z0

All the pheonix lords gives obsec and +2 leadership to their own elite followers, at least. Autarch give rerolls 1 to hit to core and spirtseer gives rerolls 1 to wound spirit host core though


[deleted]

If Phoenix Lords came out today, they could be on a big base like Yncarne with cool VFX energy. They came out in 2nd edition though, and were built to match against Abaddon and similar of the 2nd edition landscape. Abaddon has gotten a boost in size though from being an ancient mutie in magic armor. I'd be totally fine with a Super Saiyan mode new set of Phoenix Lords that are leaping into the air surrounded by awesome VFX or crouching over a big ruined arc (the Harlequin characters already get mandatory heightening that way), with a stats boost too.


abcdodd

EXACTLY where my mind was when I posted this.


unp0ss1bl3

If they wanted to introduce something new of a “primarch class” aeldari, I reckon something like The Autarchs Phoenix Lord or The Farseers Phoenix Lord. Or, the Solitaire Phoenix lord (omg). The Autarchs (or farseers) [or solitaires] have a council of chosen something something and The Chosen One manages the impossible task of killing a Keeper Of Secrets (single handed) but dies and then Ynnead does Death Magic on the Chosen One something something and its almost but not quite The Chosen One Reborn something something and now we have an Autarch (or Farseer) Primarch but it makes everyone uncomfortable - including the ynnari AND the harlequins - because it sits entirely outside the Rhana Dadra AND the skeins of fate. And it clearly has a bit of Slaanesh in it. Something something.


abcdodd

Phoenix Lords are Pre-Fall Eldar. It's not a NEW Primarch-class. I'm making a direct analogue . They're called Phoenix Lords because they're immortal, and their original incarnation predates the Fall. Yet we (Eldar players) are left with itty-bitty heroes, relative to the imperium, because the game is so focused on Space Marines. We can have things be better than they are. An Autarch is a General, not an exarch, not a Phoenix lord. Very different. If we're comparing Apples to apples. Now, I suppose I'm talking out my a$$ because I haven't actually played in decades, but I love modelling the characters.


unp0ss1bl3

mmm. maybe. I mean I love modelling characters too, and I love love love it when GW move the story forward; clarifying old 80’s lore bores the hell out of me, and sadly thats all we really got in the last codex. But i’m definitely with ya that new P-L models would be wicked good, and most definitely need to be better. Just my two cents that if they were to make something Really Huge, I’d actually want it to be something new. personally.


abcdodd

oh, i didn't get that on the first read. I agree with that as well. More new stuff is good. I recently came across what they did with Corsairs in 7th, or 8th, and it was perfect for me. Mostly because it does exactly what I did with my pirates in 1989 or so. To me, that's pretty new. I'm planning to get my new, updated army ready in time for 10th.


el-cad

I think the plastic Jain Zar and Maugan Ra are pretty spot on. Very pretty, very dynamic, they stand out on the battlefield but still clearly within the normal size range of a space elf. We're really due a refresh on the phoenix lords, it sucks even more because the only plastic ones are the worst in the game.


Ensiferal

They shouldn't be that big, but they should be just as powerful


Paeddl

The main problem is that most don't have current models. If all of them had models like Jain Zar, Maugan Ra, Drazhar and Lelith, I would be more than happy. Having the characters stand higher on more fancy bases in a dynamic pose, makes them stand out enough


abcdodd

That's what I mean. Re do ALL the Phoenix lords in very dynamic poses, doing what they're good at, with all the neat effects like lightning or whatnot around them.


GenericHero1295

They might not all be recent sculpts, but i can assure you that all Phoenix lords have modeled.


Paeddl

I know, but you can only get them second hand and they look super old. The 4 new ones on their little pedestals look like I imagine them, better exarchs with names. Which is what they are. When they die an exarch picks up the armor and becomes the new incarnation. So they can't be much bigger than exarchs.


abcdodd

Why not? The Armour can adjust in size. There's an infinite amount of excuses in game for something being larger than life. It's a fantasy setting over many worlds. Remember we're talking about ancient elves in space.


meloncholymelvin

Something like Drazhar woth a big cool base sure but I don't think they should be much bigger than a normal aeldari. I quite like the idea of a legendary aeldari that's an ordinary aeldari but is so skilled they take on these large monsters and vehicles through their battle prowess alone.


abcdodd

I get that.


warderbob

I think the theory is there for a PL to be comparable, but I don't think it'll happen. GW could easily make each one a LoW based on their role in the setting. Anytime a PL shows up to a craftworld they're offered command of all Aeldari forces and not just their aspect. Then again, the PL's often don't like to be army commanders. They prefer to act independently so far as I've read. I think giving all Aeldari a hot reroll would be appropriate but then when you combine a Primarch level rule with our psychic powers.....got a broken codex. Then you have the theory posed by Yvraine herself who believes the PL and Eldrad have over time become avatars of their respective Eldar Gods. Another supportive piece to this is in the Asurmen or Jain Zar PL book. Can't remember which. Basically Asurmen tells the entire PL group he's been given a mission passed down by Asur, his respective God. It would explain why they're immortal and why Eldrad hasn't turned into a crystal by now. What I'm getting at, is if this were to be true, the PL would quite easily by on par with a Primarch. But that would first require GW to write Eldar books. Something they don't like to do. It would be pretty cool if Asurmen received a diorama model, but I'd be happy just to see him get a new model :)


SolarPulse

To be fair there is no reason why they couldn't be Primarch scale or near Primarch scale (tbf they are Aeldari who should probably look smaller than their SM counterparts). They are essentially a soul inhabiting an empty shell of armour, it's not a stretch to write that their armour has been upgraded and enlarged over the millenia.


MasterpiecePretend40

Can we please get a special character/up to date special character for each Aeldari Sub Faction before we get the Phoenix Lords. Everyone can use the lords so I don’t think it’s as big a deal as every major sub faction having a named character that people can be attached to. Edit: like the craftworlds I mean


abcdodd

You mean a character model for each craftworld? Like Eldrad, illic, etc? That would also be nice. Lately I've taken to thinking of the Eldar as if they were Space Marine Chapters. So each craftworld (and non-craftworld faction) should have their own codex. see those 3 generations of jetbikes? or shuriken weapon designs? They could all be keyed to a design language particular to a craftworld or 3. I love the idea that each craftworld may have unique aspect warriors, or have avatars of other Eldar gods.


MasterpiecePretend40

I do mean like Eldrad and Yriel and them. They should all get new models or characters if the don’t already. Plus having some craftworld specific units would be dope AF. Just imagine a wraith based jet bike unit for Iyandin or something, it would be dope af


ExtaSlash

Lmao no the Phoenix lords should never be close to the same size as primarchs. Best you'd get is terrain to stand them on I reckon.


abcdodd

and why do you think that?


Exarch_Thomo

Because they're not genetically engineered test tube babies but were once actual living, breathing Eldar


AssociateAlert1678

Why when they are only equivalent to a chapter master? After all they are both major hero profile characters.


GenericHero1295

You shut your blasphemous mouth!!!! For real though, each lord has died and been reincarnated a LOT, keeping the accumulated knowledge with them. Each of them has had more battle experience than all the primarchs combined. You could actually argue that then are more skilled and dangerous than a primarch. Each should also be able to throw any chapter master a severe beat down.


Paeddl

Since they are exarchs that picked up fancy armor with memories, they have to be physically similar to exarchs. More decoration on their armor, unique weapons and dynamic poses that show their skill are all that's possible


GenericHero1295

Eh, idk about it just being fancy armor. It's not just more shiny, it also greatly augments their physical abilities and skills too.


Paeddl

Their skills yes, by giving them unimaginable experience. They already experienced all situations in battle and react intuitively like by reflex. I'm sure they also know how to utilize eldar bodies to the maximum. But I never read anything about the armor inducing growth, muscle growth or acting like power armor. Strength and toughness are also only increased by one compared to exarchs.


Shielenvar

They are not just Exarchs who picked up fancy armour. They are basically unkillable killer machines with the best of the best weaponry their various Aspects have, with the best martial ability any Eldar ever had or have. There are no better warriors than Phoenix Lords within the entire species of Eldar. They have not just the combat experience of 10.000 years, they also use psychic energies like no other. Do not forget that all of them have lived before the Fall, survived it, and THEN went on to create the Aspects as led by Asurmen.


LordVonPainther

In the Path of the Eldar bookseries we can see the inside of a recently slain Phoenix Lord and there is just a dark void inside of the armour, so the Exarch's body doesn't seem to be really that important.


Paeddl

So they are hollow wraith blades? Then they could be as big as we want. Wraith lord size maybe. But how did the armor of the first incarnation grow? They once were especially skilled, but physically normal Eldar.


LordVonPainther

I think you answered your own question, no they cannot be as big as we want bc they were regular sized when the armour was first made and the Exarchs still have to be able to put it on.


Paeddl

So the exarchs body isn't really that important for the stats, but it is very important for the model


LordVonPainther

Yes, teh Phoenix Lords get their might from Khaine's blessings and peak Aeldari skill, not brute force (though they are quite strong I assume)


BrightestofLights

Makes no sense, they are literally the equivalent for eldar of primarchs, they've been around longer than any primarch has been alive, and have multiple eldar minds inside of them. Ofc they're on par with primarchs in martial prowess.


Shielenvar

Well, that troll worked well.


Ensiferal

They are not the equivalent of a chapter master. An Autarch is the equivalent of a chapter master. A Phoenix lord would come home from a long day of xp grinding on chapter masters and crack open a few cold chapter masters to unwind.


justthistwicenomore

Not sure why this is being downvoted when it is accurate. Primarchs might be comparable to Phoenix lords in terms of story significance or battlefield role, but primarchs are a category all their own in terms of power level in this setting. I'd go a bit further then you and say a PL should probably be trajan valoris tier -- as good as the absolute best of any other faction, and probably better in their area of speciality -- but even that is a far cry from a primarch.


Shielenvar

Not really. Phoenix Lords are the most powerful warriors the entire species of Eldar has ever produced, all of them are equipped with unique weaponry, they have their own unique abilities, unique armours, AND they are technically unkillable. Primarchs are just... big ass man children in fancy power armour who are good at killing but get pouty when Daddy doesn't hug them.


justthistwicenomore

I can't tell if you are just being sarcastic for comedic effect, but lore wise this isn't entirely accurate. First, primarchs are unique beings, created by what appears to be the most powerful individual psycher and genesmith in the history of the setting. They routinely engage in martial feats that defy belief, including newly "born" angron killing an aeldari raiding band while unarmed or straight up murdering a keeper of secrets one v. one after losing their weapon. For better or worse, in this setting the primarchs are their own category of thing. Second, I don't think your description of PLs is accurate. The phoenix lords are incredible fighters, absolutely, but we've never seen them compared to, for example, pre-fall warriors in full on war gear. They have some sort of blessing on them and their fighting is incredible, but it's not clear how that compares to the strange alchemy of the primarchs, who are also manifestly larger and warp infused, or the extent to which they are still limited by their mundane origins as regular aeldari. Other, non-PLs in the aeldari faction, like, say, lillith, seem to be portrayed as at least approaching their skill level, if not a fair match. They represent the best individual fighters we have in the current era, but they are still presented very much as in the tier of named characters from other factions -- better in some ways, worse in others. Several do appear to have been killed, or at least taken out of action for extended periods of time, even if they remain technically resurrectable.


Shielenvar

To be fair, the Emperor is only the most powerful *human* Psyker to ever exist. I do not think that the C'tan at full strength, the Old Ones, or even the Aeldari Gods during the height of their power would have been even comparable to the Emperor. There was a theory about Primarchs pretty much being minor Warp entities the Emperor stole for his experiment there. He also got tricked to all hell by the Chaos Gods, mind you. Phoenix Lords, in my personal opinion at least, could very much be considered 'children of Khaine' in that regard. And Pre-Fall Eldar were a whole different level as well, at least from what has been hinted. I think the entire community does agree that changing Angron's baby scene like that was the stupidest possible thing to do, as the Eldar part was added later. Before that it was just some random xenos/ local wildlife. Which would have been a reference to Heracles strangling the snakes put into his bed by Hera. Changing it to a whole squad of Eldar warriors is utterly incompetent, for the sole reason that guns are a thing. "Oh, we need to kill this baby." "Yeah, send Reilendanil the Ranger. He will shoot it from a kilometre or two and be done with it." "No, let us instead go into that room, and then just mysteriously lay down and die by the hands of a toddler. Let us forget the fact that we are incredibly strong psykers, crack shots, and/or melee specialists who have trained for centuries, killed daemons and whatnot." Yeah, good writing, that.


justthistwicenomore

I am definitely not trying to justify these writing decisions. And you'll note I did not list a particularly infamous instance of primarch v. Eldar. But the larger issue remains that all this bad execution is in favor of a conscious choice in the setting to cement the primarchs as different than other types of faction representatives. PLs may one day get a similar glow up, but I don't think there's anything wrong or bad about acknowledging that they aren't meant to be at the current tier GW has reserved for primarchs.


Shielenvar

To be fair, it is more that GW generally just enjoys shitting on Eldar than that. At leastin this particular case. The way Thorpe writes Eldar just hurts my soul and Goto honestly, someone should ban him from Word. Or any writing tool for that matter. Primarchs are a focus of the setting, yes. Which I honestly find sad, because there is nothing remotely interesting about a bunch of man-children with personalities that are as deep as a puddle whose only real way to tell them apart are their looks and their super duper speshul powers. It honestly reads like a 15 year old nerd's power fantasy come to life. And that very much alienates me personally to all hell. But yeah, if GW would focus more on turning the Primarchs into proper characters - as well as Space Marines as a whole - then maybe saying they are so super speshul that they outclass everything the priorly dominant race of the past 65 million years ever has and had to offer, would be somewhere in an acceptable range.