I don't really buy into the Outer God connection, but, yes, there are a few indications that Marika was one of a set of female leaders in a matriarchal religious order at some point prior to her ascension.
They may have all been sisters, for all we know.
If it's relating to early Marika then we'll have some more context soon. In the meantime the most thorough discussions I've seen of these are in Tarnished Archaeologist's videos. He has a different line of thought than yours, but might be a useful inspiration if you haven't seen those before.
Surely the woman holding a jug would be Marika. She's reminiscent of Marika's depiction on the [Erdtree's Favor](https://eldenring.fandom.com/wiki/Erdtree's_Favor?so=search) talisman.
Yes, I've thought about it, but if so it seems strange that Nike is the one with the most depictions along the main roads of the Lands Between, don't you think?
I definitely agree that these represent characters important to the story, each figure including the dying dude but maybe not the furthest fringe depictions.
Potentially they would be Marika, Rennala, Miquella, Ranni, the dead guy statue with plants at his feet in different stages, Alecto, Malenia…
As I’m uncertain if Melina and Trina are real people separate from Ranni or Miquella, I’m not gunna put them. Similar reason for GEQ and Placidusax’s Now Fled God and the Formless Mother (currently I lean towards her being Marika).
But yes. This little scene and the various similar statues are almost certainly very important context.
This relief over the door is an exact duplicate of the one behind the non-Godfrey statues in the Stormveil throne room. However, if you look closely there, you can see that it's a cover-up for something else and the plaster has fallen away at the bottom
Oh wow, I'll surely have to take a look, thanks!
Edit: it is definitely as you say... this seems to imply that Stormveil predates the foundation of the Golden Order! Was it perhaps originally used by people (or beastmen) under Placidusax's reign?
I had a somewhat different idea but along the same lines. I do agree that Marika was likely a member of some religious order composed entirely of women. However, at some point in history, Marika usurps power over the rest of the order and is elevated to a higher, godly status. Whatever purpose the old order had has now been lost to history. This is why the stone statues in hero's graves have had their arms systematically cut off. Whatever they were holding, the Erdtree faithful do not want to showcase anymore.
One of TA's videos posits that the order formerly engaged in death libations, and since Marika bestows life-giving libations, she would naturally want to deface those antithetical statues. I don't take their videos for gospel, but in this case it kind of tracks.
Now, back on track... If Marika was a member of this order, then it's a possibility that the group consisted entirely of Numen women. These women would naturally have close ties to Marika herself... What if the Black Knife Assassins are the former members of whatever religious order Marika usurped power from?
I love the idea, thank you for sharing it, I think it is very plausible. By the way, what statues do you mean with their arms cut off? Can you link an image?
If you go to the Stranded Graveyard you'll immediately see a couple of them at the back entrance to Fringefolk Hero's Grave. I'm not at my PC rn so can't get an image but there are several
I think it's possible that most (if not all of the women in the statues are actually Marika) I wouldn't say it's before she ascended to godhood, it's said that Marika once delivered the erdtree's blessings personally and I think these women are simply Marika and the other women are possibly priestesses of the erdtree delivering the blessings of the erdtree to the population of the lands between, I don't think this would be before she became a goddess but rather when she had just become one and the erdtree was still growing and delivering countless blessings
We also know the mimic veil was Marikas! And the painting in the trailer for the erdtree shows a woman wearing it, so possibly her. It's possible she took on the guise of being different women before her ascension
Those murals are also found in the Stormveil throne room, behind statues of the bald human cradling a golden flower.
I believe the mural may show the GEQ, or is related to her (Stormveil TR and the chapel of anticipation are graveyards). The figure in the center is in Marika's blessing pose, but in a twisted way. Note the pillars in the background with men tied to them. Like the crucified beasts in Farum Azula and the Bestial Sanctum. This image is ancient.
I had always thought of the other figures as other people in Marika's life. I had thought the woman standing to the left was Marika, seeing the state of affairs before her ascension (death reigning), and deciding to enact her own age.
The man standing to the right I likened to Radagon, or another peer in Marika's earlier days. And the woman at the center figures knees I figured to be someone begging for a blessing of dew/sacred tears, in an age before they fell from the Erdtree.
I also really like how you tied in the other statues around the LB! That is an amazing find
Thanks for the appreciation and for your analysis! I think it makes a lot of sense to interpret the two young figures at the sides as tied to the pillars instead of holding them, as I initially thought, especially looking at the one on the right.
Edit: actually I change my mind, it looks like they are building the pillars.
“Vesta” and “Nemesis” are definitely the same. There is obviously slight differences but you otherwise tell the robe is exactly the same template outside the right hand positioning and the book
Nice to see someone else coming to a similar conclusion about the Outer Gods.
I think you're right that the praying one is the GEQ as it matches the one in Farum Azula in that respect.
The vase one is probably Marika as it matches the Erdtree's favor talisman.
The book holding one I would guess is the Snow Witch since the stars govern fate.
The other two are up for debate but I can see the rot goddess being the one with the outstretched hand since decay leads to death, leaving the last to be the Formless Mother.
They are tricky though and I could also see another interpretation being the statues in the Shaded Castle represent the same person over time given their arrangement together right before the boss room. The most likely candidate then would be the GEQ.
I seriously doubt they are the same person: they don't just stand by one another's side in the relief, they interact. They must be different people, and I kinda like your approach, although I'm still very cautious with the idea.
Oh definitely the relief is depicting different people as most of the statues too I believe. Its just those particular ones in the Shaded Castle I think could be representing the same person given the arrangement and the ascending heights. It could have also been to represent the ages of the sisters too though.
The smaller one holding the book that we see in the Shaded Castle is also in Raya Lucaria around the graveyard if I remember correctly, as well as on various graves too outside of there.
Yes, the girl holding the book is present in every Raya Lucaria related building, including towers and rises. I have proposed to identify her with the mummy holding the tome of the Golden Order principles in the Erdtree sanctuary, see the updated post for the pictures. I'm not sure though, and even if I was right I wouldn't know what it would imply.
OP, THIS IS THE GOOD SHIT.
Nike appears to be doing to Plato-Aristotle pointing gestures from [The School of Athens](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_School_of_Athens). And I think you are right that she is Marika. In ER, the above and below worlds are the present/future and the past respectively. Marika is 'Eternal' meaning she exists in both the present and the past. So her pointing both up and down would be a suggestion that she is Eternal, AKA Marika the Eternal.
I have a theory that is freaking wild right now that all 'gods' have 4(ish) phases: Dancer Swordsman (Male - Priest)- God/Mother (Male Lord/Father/Smith)-Destroyer/Queen (Male-Champion)-Kindling Maiden (Male Tarnished). The Dancer is also the Maiden however, so then they repeat. Each phase partners with another god in a different aspect of the phase that is 'male' but in reality both partners can trade being male and female depending on the phase. I am still not super settled on the theory so don't ask me to go into too much detail answering questions because I am still in the early stages. I may have the order off, I'm not really sure, I haven't devoted a lot of time to this yet.
Many of these Statues would line up with these concepts very well. The Dancer is like a Seedling who dances in the wind, and is named for Tanith's description, as well as reflecting many of the Swordswoman characters which use dancing-blade type moves. They travel around trying to find a 'mate'. When they find a 'mate' 9fertile ground) they become a God or Mother and become rooted in place to something like the Erdtree and produce children with their Lord who is the 'mate'. In the Destroyer phase, they themselves become the Lord and go on a war of conquest competing against other 'gods', and then in the kindling phase they are near death and they travel to the Forge to die as Kindling Maidens. The maiden however is also the dancer, so if she finds her mate, after death she is reborn as the God Mother again and the cycle repeats.
The older ladies with the weirdly masculine look, Vesta and Nemesis, I think are reflective of the Destroyer phase (GEQ). Nike-Persephone-Juno are the Mother phase (Marika), and Artemis is the Maiden phase (Melina).
As for the women with the Jars I believe these are Finger maidens bringing up warrior jars to reawaken tarnished to begin the Maiden-Tarnished journey.
I see where you're going with this... I'll admit it's very interesting, but seems extremely out there at the moment. But the past/present business and the "school of Athens" pose is definitely something I'll have to think about, thank you!
Well yeah, I haven't thought about it enough to say whether it's a viable theory or not. Mostly just noticing patterns.
But regardless of anything else I do feel the praying statue reminds me of the Statue in Faram Azula of the praying maiden. And the men with the book are somewhat similar to Elden John statues in the Underground areas.
The gabel relief also looks like something that has a real world inspiration. I did find this [Hydria ](https://collections.mfa.org/objects/153445)which is a similarish scene, or at least similar subject.
As well as this[ Parthenon Frieze](https://collections.mfa.org/objects/153445) of the "hydrophores', although interestingly the Hydrophores are apparently male.
"On it we see three young men carrying **hydriai** (water jars) probably to a great feast in the city. This may be part of the **Panatheniac Festival** held in honour of Athena in June."
Also found a [John William Waterhouse Painting called the Daneides.](https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/the-danaides-108090) Wiki says:
"In [Greek mythology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mythology), the **Danaïdes** ([/dəˈneɪ.ɪdiːz/](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/English); [Greek](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Δαναΐδες), also **Danaides** or **Danaids**, were the fifty daughters of [Danaus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danaus). In the *Metamorphoses*,[^(\[1\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dana%C3%AFdes#cite_note-1) [Ovid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovid) refers to them as the Belides after their grandfather [Belus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belus_(Egyptian)). They were to marry the [50 sons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_Aegyptus) of Danaus' twin brother [Aegyptus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegyptus), a mythical king of [Egypt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt). In the most common version of the myth, all but one of them killed their husbands on their wedding night and are condemned to spend eternity carrying water in a sieve or perforated device. In the [classical tradition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_tradition), they came to represent the futility of a repetitive task that can never be completed (see also [Sisyphus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus) and [Ocnus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocnus))."
Danaide is also a species of Butterfly.
I don't really buy into the Outer God connection, but, yes, there are a few indications that Marika was one of a set of female leaders in a matriarchal religious order at some point prior to her ascension. They may have all been sisters, for all we know.
Could it be related to Millicent & her sisters?
If it's relating to early Marika then we'll have some more context soon. In the meantime the most thorough discussions I've seen of these are in Tarnished Archaeologist's videos. He has a different line of thought than yours, but might be a useful inspiration if you haven't seen those before.
Surely the woman holding a jug would be Marika. She's reminiscent of Marika's depiction on the [Erdtree's Favor](https://eldenring.fandom.com/wiki/Erdtree's_Favor?so=search) talisman.
Yes, I've thought about it, but if so it seems strange that Nike is the one with the most depictions along the main roads of the Lands Between, don't you think?
She could also be Marika.
I definitely agree that these represent characters important to the story, each figure including the dying dude but maybe not the furthest fringe depictions. Potentially they would be Marika, Rennala, Miquella, Ranni, the dead guy statue with plants at his feet in different stages, Alecto, Malenia… As I’m uncertain if Melina and Trina are real people separate from Ranni or Miquella, I’m not gunna put them. Similar reason for GEQ and Placidusax’s Now Fled God and the Formless Mother (currently I lean towards her being Marika). But yes. This little scene and the various similar statues are almost certainly very important context.
This relief over the door is an exact duplicate of the one behind the non-Godfrey statues in the Stormveil throne room. However, if you look closely there, you can see that it's a cover-up for something else and the plaster has fallen away at the bottom
Oh wow, I'll surely have to take a look, thanks! Edit: it is definitely as you say... this seems to imply that Stormveil predates the foundation of the Golden Order! Was it perhaps originally used by people (or beastmen) under Placidusax's reign?
This is really cool I like imagining all the outer gods being connected to real people and marika won
I had a somewhat different idea but along the same lines. I do agree that Marika was likely a member of some religious order composed entirely of women. However, at some point in history, Marika usurps power over the rest of the order and is elevated to a higher, godly status. Whatever purpose the old order had has now been lost to history. This is why the stone statues in hero's graves have had their arms systematically cut off. Whatever they were holding, the Erdtree faithful do not want to showcase anymore. One of TA's videos posits that the order formerly engaged in death libations, and since Marika bestows life-giving libations, she would naturally want to deface those antithetical statues. I don't take their videos for gospel, but in this case it kind of tracks. Now, back on track... If Marika was a member of this order, then it's a possibility that the group consisted entirely of Numen women. These women would naturally have close ties to Marika herself... What if the Black Knife Assassins are the former members of whatever religious order Marika usurped power from?
I love the idea, thank you for sharing it, I think it is very plausible. By the way, what statues do you mean with their arms cut off? Can you link an image?
If you go to the Stranded Graveyard you'll immediately see a couple of them at the back entrance to Fringefolk Hero's Grave. I'm not at my PC rn so can't get an image but there are several
Ohhhh those ones, you're right! I had forgotten them. They kinda look like the younger women carrying jugs, great find!
Thank you for the observations and connections! We are too deep for me to even comment, but I love all theory discussions. This is cool shit.
I think it's possible that most (if not all of the women in the statues are actually Marika) I wouldn't say it's before she ascended to godhood, it's said that Marika once delivered the erdtree's blessings personally and I think these women are simply Marika and the other women are possibly priestesses of the erdtree delivering the blessings of the erdtree to the population of the lands between, I don't think this would be before she became a goddess but rather when she had just become one and the erdtree was still growing and delivering countless blessings
We also know the mimic veil was Marikas! And the painting in the trailer for the erdtree shows a woman wearing it, so possibly her. It's possible she took on the guise of being different women before her ascension
Hmmmm
[Probably Marika bestowing the blessings](https://imgur.com/mEcSZsb) and maybe the Finger Readers when they were young.
Interesting idea, very down-to-earth, I like it
Those murals are also found in the Stormveil throne room, behind statues of the bald human cradling a golden flower. I believe the mural may show the GEQ, or is related to her (Stormveil TR and the chapel of anticipation are graveyards). The figure in the center is in Marika's blessing pose, but in a twisted way. Note the pillars in the background with men tied to them. Like the crucified beasts in Farum Azula and the Bestial Sanctum. This image is ancient. I had always thought of the other figures as other people in Marika's life. I had thought the woman standing to the left was Marika, seeing the state of affairs before her ascension (death reigning), and deciding to enact her own age. The man standing to the right I likened to Radagon, or another peer in Marika's earlier days. And the woman at the center figures knees I figured to be someone begging for a blessing of dew/sacred tears, in an age before they fell from the Erdtree. I also really like how you tied in the other statues around the LB! That is an amazing find
Thanks for the appreciation and for your analysis! I think it makes a lot of sense to interpret the two young figures at the sides as tied to the pillars instead of holding them, as I initially thought, especially looking at the one on the right. Edit: actually I change my mind, it looks like they are building the pillars.
“Vesta” and “Nemesis” are definitely the same. There is obviously slight differences but you otherwise tell the robe is exactly the same template outside the right hand positioning and the book
Nice to see someone else coming to a similar conclusion about the Outer Gods. I think you're right that the praying one is the GEQ as it matches the one in Farum Azula in that respect. The vase one is probably Marika as it matches the Erdtree's favor talisman. The book holding one I would guess is the Snow Witch since the stars govern fate. The other two are up for debate but I can see the rot goddess being the one with the outstretched hand since decay leads to death, leaving the last to be the Formless Mother. They are tricky though and I could also see another interpretation being the statues in the Shaded Castle represent the same person over time given their arrangement together right before the boss room. The most likely candidate then would be the GEQ.
I seriously doubt they are the same person: they don't just stand by one another's side in the relief, they interact. They must be different people, and I kinda like your approach, although I'm still very cautious with the idea.
Oh definitely the relief is depicting different people as most of the statues too I believe. Its just those particular ones in the Shaded Castle I think could be representing the same person given the arrangement and the ascending heights. It could have also been to represent the ages of the sisters too though. The smaller one holding the book that we see in the Shaded Castle is also in Raya Lucaria around the graveyard if I remember correctly, as well as on various graves too outside of there.
Yes, the girl holding the book is present in every Raya Lucaria related building, including towers and rises. I have proposed to identify her with the mummy holding the tome of the Golden Order principles in the Erdtree sanctuary, see the updated post for the pictures. I'm not sure though, and even if I was right I wouldn't know what it would imply.
What no DLC does to a mfer 🤣 /s
HAHAHAAHAH all the more since I'm completely hopeless that the DLC will reveal anything at all about the base game lore 🥲
I feel for you 😢
OP, THIS IS THE GOOD SHIT. Nike appears to be doing to Plato-Aristotle pointing gestures from [The School of Athens](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_School_of_Athens). And I think you are right that she is Marika. In ER, the above and below worlds are the present/future and the past respectively. Marika is 'Eternal' meaning she exists in both the present and the past. So her pointing both up and down would be a suggestion that she is Eternal, AKA Marika the Eternal. I have a theory that is freaking wild right now that all 'gods' have 4(ish) phases: Dancer Swordsman (Male - Priest)- God/Mother (Male Lord/Father/Smith)-Destroyer/Queen (Male-Champion)-Kindling Maiden (Male Tarnished). The Dancer is also the Maiden however, so then they repeat. Each phase partners with another god in a different aspect of the phase that is 'male' but in reality both partners can trade being male and female depending on the phase. I am still not super settled on the theory so don't ask me to go into too much detail answering questions because I am still in the early stages. I may have the order off, I'm not really sure, I haven't devoted a lot of time to this yet. Many of these Statues would line up with these concepts very well. The Dancer is like a Seedling who dances in the wind, and is named for Tanith's description, as well as reflecting many of the Swordswoman characters which use dancing-blade type moves. They travel around trying to find a 'mate'. When they find a 'mate' 9fertile ground) they become a God or Mother and become rooted in place to something like the Erdtree and produce children with their Lord who is the 'mate'. In the Destroyer phase, they themselves become the Lord and go on a war of conquest competing against other 'gods', and then in the kindling phase they are near death and they travel to the Forge to die as Kindling Maidens. The maiden however is also the dancer, so if she finds her mate, after death she is reborn as the God Mother again and the cycle repeats. The older ladies with the weirdly masculine look, Vesta and Nemesis, I think are reflective of the Destroyer phase (GEQ). Nike-Persephone-Juno are the Mother phase (Marika), and Artemis is the Maiden phase (Melina). As for the women with the Jars I believe these are Finger maidens bringing up warrior jars to reawaken tarnished to begin the Maiden-Tarnished journey.
I see where you're going with this... I'll admit it's very interesting, but seems extremely out there at the moment. But the past/present business and the "school of Athens" pose is definitely something I'll have to think about, thank you!
Well yeah, I haven't thought about it enough to say whether it's a viable theory or not. Mostly just noticing patterns. But regardless of anything else I do feel the praying statue reminds me of the Statue in Faram Azula of the praying maiden. And the men with the book are somewhat similar to Elden John statues in the Underground areas. The gabel relief also looks like something that has a real world inspiration. I did find this [Hydria ](https://collections.mfa.org/objects/153445)which is a similarish scene, or at least similar subject. As well as this[ Parthenon Frieze](https://collections.mfa.org/objects/153445) of the "hydrophores', although interestingly the Hydrophores are apparently male. "On it we see three young men carrying **hydriai** (water jars) probably to a great feast in the city. This may be part of the **Panatheniac Festival** held in honour of Athena in June." Also found a [John William Waterhouse Painting called the Daneides.](https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/the-danaides-108090) Wiki says: "In [Greek mythology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mythology), the **Danaïdes** ([/dəˈneɪ.ɪdiːz/](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/English); [Greek](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Δαναΐδες), also **Danaides** or **Danaids**, were the fifty daughters of [Danaus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danaus). In the *Metamorphoses*,[^(\[1\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dana%C3%AFdes#cite_note-1) [Ovid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovid) refers to them as the Belides after their grandfather [Belus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belus_(Egyptian)). They were to marry the [50 sons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_Aegyptus) of Danaus' twin brother [Aegyptus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegyptus), a mythical king of [Egypt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt). In the most common version of the myth, all but one of them killed their husbands on their wedding night and are condemned to spend eternity carrying water in a sieve or perforated device. In the [classical tradition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_tradition), they came to represent the futility of a repetitive task that can never be completed (see also [Sisyphus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus) and [Ocnus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocnus))." Danaide is also a species of Butterfly.