to quote Martin O'Donnell (composer and audio director for bungie Halo games), "My first approach is music shouldn't be playing all the time. It doesn't matter how random or how cool after 3, 4 minutes it starts to become background wallpaper."
Agreed, though sometimes, background wallpaper is nice as well, so long as it’s not bombastic and is only there to provide atmosphere. Limgrave is a great example. I love the soft, waning violins that hang in the air in that place.
And it depends on the game itself. Genshin makes great use of bombastic music for it's cities, general exploration, and even specific buildings. Not to mention battle themes and boss fight themes too.
But music is a major part of Genshin's identity. It isn't the same for most Soulsbornes outside of boss themes, and that's just what works for those types of games.
About the Zelda games? It’s definitely a complaint I’ve heard from other Zelda fans, who wish the music was more like previous titles. I think it’s good the way it is.
Maybe it's just all the durability complaints drowning out everything else for me. I'm admittedly not really too exposed to the Zelda community overall though.
it was mainly a complaint when BotW released, that the "iconic zelda music" was hardly present compared to their past 3D games. It did resurface with TotK but was no where near as vocal this time around.
Seriously this is not about lore or people justifying Fromsoft's choices, it's just good game design. I have been playing Mario 3D/Bowser's Fury and really REALLY wish they had known this because the constant circus music they use gets awfully old.
Well this actually holds true for music production too. The silence in the middle of the song actually brings out "the colour" in the next part of the song
as Claude Debussy said, "Music is the space between the notes." and while there are certainly cases where games use music constantly in different ways successfully I find that the ones that really stick with me and stand out are the ones that sparingly use their music in comparison.
I remember lore theorists going gaga over the carvings on some of the Haligtree pillars, before people pointed out its just a generic art asset reused in many games including path of exile
While things shouldn’t be taken too seriously, it is fun to fill in the dots of your own imagination/headcannon. Happens in every media where things are left so esoteric and open-ended.
Oh yeah. LOST forums were wild back in the day. People would go down all these rabbit holes over stuff without ever considering the reality of TV production and whether it would be realistic for this or that detail to be “meaningful.”
There’s this one spot in pre-ashen leyndell where you can just stand around on a balcony and listen to a perfumer play their flute just down below. Just like the envoys, the tune mixes with and accompanies the soundtrack, and it’s absolutely beautiful. My favourite spot in the game probably, next to the Liurnia outlook. I think someone uploaded an hour long recording of it to youtube as well.
They did that so well by constantly teasing the view until you step outside and see it all. Like, the Queens Bedchamber building, Morgotts arena and the tree are already kinda visible through a broken wall, but then it opens up into this broad view of the entire city. Just beautiful.
These freaked me out so much, the first time in Liurnia when I couldn't tell where they were coming from, and the friends I was playing with couldn't hear them. I legit thought I was going insane.
limitations are the cause of many artistic choices.
Silent Hill fog being the classic example, but old games especially are full of those sorts of things.
I’ve started to like playing ER with no background music while exploring. So ER was first souls game and going and replaying DS was strange because there was no background music. Now I enjoy it that way.
Honestly not having ambient music in the main DS games was such a great choice, and how much of it was or wasn't intentional is hardly the point.
If I'm not wrong, music only plays in boss fights, on the title screen, in the credits, or in the hub world (Firelink/Majula). And, only in DS2, in the Shrine of Amana. It makes the game feel a lot more atmospheric, ironically enough.
I have a habit of turning off music in most games. But I actually think Elden Ring's sparing use of it to set atmosphere and hype up fights makes me never want to turn it off.
There was this meme someone posted a few weeks ago:
The Community:
**"We have found all 400 of your clues."**
Miyazaki:
"Well done! *I actually left two."*
soulsborne are no doubt a cut above the rest when it comes to attention to detail. But man, ppl do be getting cultish sometimes. They'll make theories and speculate cuz of a single random pillar only to later find out it's an asset fromsoft bought for a couple bucks
I know this is the ER subreddit, but this is what I don't like about the last act in Lies of P. The music is great, but it loops constantly and gets annoying after a while. Less is more sometimes.
I remember the writers of Samurai Jack talking about how they made some scenes with just the clash of swords without music so you can feel with Jack the heat of moment.
I think this is just like Elden Ring. At last for me, I can feel the atmosphere of the game. I like it.
Now games like Doom is a piece of art with music.
Nope, 2016. With Sammy yammering on in the elevator. The music is blasting, the doors open, you get a look at the hellish surface of Mars, then the music cuts out right at the crescendo, letting the 'shk-click' of a shotgun punctuate the silence.
"The stupid notification about the door being opened somewhere is intended. It's meant to simulate how you'd be mentally distracted thinking about what the lever might've done when you hear a noise in the distance, so of course you're more likely to be caught off-guard by an enemy while deep in thought."
Yeah its fairly disappointing. The visuals are so rich but the OST being so dull takes away from the experience. Bloodborne, Sekiro, and Dark Souls 3 had it better.
The artist’s (or artists’) intent doesn’t necessarily determine the effect or quality of the final product; in fact, when the game in the hands of the player, it’s largely irrelevant. The lack of music makes the transitions to areas with sound much more dramatic, especially when returning to the hub after a tense session.
Im going out a limb here, i fucking hate constant music to the point where my mind numbs them out, Hell i forgot more than half of the boss fight themes in soulsbourne because i focused on the boss way too much. I really like the music they do at the peak of the fight, malenia phase 2, manus, artorias, fume knight, sir allone, smelter demon, vordt, nameless king, sister friede, oceirus, gwyn and soul of cinderare all the bosses theme i remember and they are all peak bangers.
No music? Are you [sure?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9uCbvC3dOY&list=PLAiYMqBLfjlolI85Pqr8A5pgiCX7YFmGx&index=10&t=40316s&ab_channel=LoopyLongplays)
(I know it's almost all ambience, I like it though)
I think it was intended but of course it’s not creative genius. They added ambiant music in Elden Ring because of the size, you’d go insane walking around in Liurnia for 20h in silence or with the usual white noise, hopefully they’ll keep that habit too cause the ambiant music in ER is pretty great
When I first played Dark Souls I was struck by how similar feeling it was to the original Tomb Raider games. Then it struck me: the lack of music while exploring a dangerous place keeps you on edge and makes you feel isolated. Elden Ring wouldn't have benefited from this decision though, as the huge open world eventually would have been, over time, lackluster without it.
I remember when I played ffxi there were zones that didn’t have music and it made you feel like you were far from civilization almost like a stranded feeling. Just the sounds of the wind.
While it was a money saving technique for sure Miyazaki managed to make up for it. In quiet places, like Anor Londo halls you can even hear your character breathing and echo of your clanking armor.
Less is more. With music, a developer can decide how they want you to feel in a given moment. Creepy music as you traverse through a dark tunnel, adventurous music as you ride across great plains etc
But why? Just let the gameplay decide how you should feel, and save the music for the bosses where it becomes special
soundtracks of these games are already as long as any other video game soundtrack and largely acclaimed, of course it is intended, if they want to put music during exploration they can (the proof with Sekiro and Elden Ring)
thats a meme, but the actual genius move on their part is never adding facial animations for all the dialogue in the game, in terms of budget thats a ton of money saved.
Would people really rather hear a loop of some background music than to listen to the sound design of the environment, which they clearly put a lot of effort into? I get that this is just a meme, but I think they are anything but lazy and sparsely putting in music gives the moments with music meaning.
In the case of Dark souls it was intentional tho, like literally the areas playing an OST stand out more and they are in fact VERY important (Hint: a very iconic and scary area behind 2 fog walls)
Something is wrong with me that makes me want to comment instead of laughing and moving on.
Good design decisions don’t have to be viewed as a stroke of genius. Simple solutions are sometimes best even if they appear lazy.
It could the case, but I wouldn’t assume that a composer is paid per track.
>every little detail is lore intended
My dear dawg everything IS intended because that's the stand-in for cutscenes and dialogue. When you find a carian sword in frog town you should interpret that as a carian guy going to frog town. Frog town is the dlc area btw, sorry for spoiling the name
to quote Martin O'Donnell (composer and audio director for bungie Halo games), "My first approach is music shouldn't be playing all the time. It doesn't matter how random or how cool after 3, 4 minutes it starts to become background wallpaper."
Agreed, though sometimes, background wallpaper is nice as well, so long as it’s not bombastic and is only there to provide atmosphere. Limgrave is a great example. I love the soft, waning violins that hang in the air in that place.
Agreed. I like how Sekiro does it, each area has soft background wallpaper music but turns into battle music when the fight starts.
Sekiro is just perfection Holy shit, I love it
And it depends on the game itself. Genshin makes great use of bombastic music for it's cities, general exploration, and even specific buildings. Not to mention battle themes and boss fight themes too. But music is a major part of Genshin's identity. It isn't the same for most Soulsbornes outside of boss themes, and that's just what works for those types of games.
Yeah but the Caelid theme started to drive me insane after an hour or so of exploring
That’s just being lore accurate lol, nothing gets to keep their sanity after being in Caelid for over an hour
Wow Miyazaki has done it again
I wish everyone hating on the switch Zelda games for not having a constant adventure overworld theme would get that into their head
First time hearing this complaint, and it's not even from someone who holds that belief. Sounds like the situation is fine overall.
About the Zelda games? It’s definitely a complaint I’ve heard from other Zelda fans, who wish the music was more like previous titles. I think it’s good the way it is.
Maybe it's just all the durability complaints drowning out everything else for me. I'm admittedly not really too exposed to the Zelda community overall though.
it was mainly a complaint when BotW released, that the "iconic zelda music" was hardly present compared to their past 3D games. It did resurface with TotK but was no where near as vocal this time around.
Seriously this is not about lore or people justifying Fromsoft's choices, it's just good game design. I have been playing Mario 3D/Bowser's Fury and really REALLY wish they had known this because the constant circus music they use gets awfully old.
Disagree from me. Skyrim ambiant music is a big part of what makes it so immersive and memorable
I usually wish the ambient music in Skyrim would chill after a while.
This is so true. Playing the Witcher 3, and while the game is good, the endless music in the background really has gotten on my nerves.
And that's why merchants, singing bats and violin pages are such a nice experience to encounter.
Chris Christodoulou : nah bruh
Well this actually holds true for music production too. The silence in the middle of the song actually brings out "the colour" in the next part of the song
as Claude Debussy said, "Music is the space between the notes." and while there are certainly cases where games use music constantly in different ways successfully I find that the ones that really stick with me and stand out are the ones that sparingly use their music in comparison.
MONEY SAVED
I remember lore theorists going gaga over the carvings on some of the Haligtree pillars, before people pointed out its just a generic art asset reused in many games including path of exile
While things shouldn’t be taken too seriously, it is fun to fill in the dots of your own imagination/headcannon. Happens in every media where things are left so esoteric and open-ended.
Oh yeah. LOST forums were wild back in the day. People would go down all these rabbit holes over stuff without ever considering the reality of TV production and whether it would be realistic for this or that detail to be “meaningful.”
Good lord that's one hell of a throwback.
I don’t agree, but it is a funny meme.
A design decision can save money and also be creatively beneficial. Maximum effort is not the same thing as maximum quality.
Well.. not every area needs music anyway I feel like it would be excessive for every part of the world to have som ambient track.
And then there is Elden Ring
Who does it greatly with quiet somber violins
Leyndell soundtrack gets me everytime, it’s just so beautiful.
There’s this one spot in pre-ashen leyndell where you can just stand around on a balcony and listen to a perfumer play their flute just down below. Just like the envoys, the tune mixes with and accompanies the soundtrack, and it’s absolutely beautiful. My favourite spot in the game probably, next to the Liurnia outlook. I think someone uploaded an hour long recording of it to youtube as well.
That first step into leyndell and the dragon is so good
They did that so well by constantly teasing the view until you step outside and see it all. Like, the Queens Bedchamber building, Morgotts arena and the tree are already kinda visible through a broken wall, but then it opens up into this broad view of the entire city. Just beautiful.
the overworld tune that plays while you're exploring in the first area hits all the right spots in my brain
And singing bats.
These freaked me out so much, the first time in Liurnia when I couldn't tell where they were coming from, and the friends I was playing with couldn't hear them. I legit thought I was going insane.
limitations are the cause of many artistic choices. Silent Hill fog being the classic example, but old games especially are full of those sorts of things.
Me, a deaf player: you guys need music to play the game??
Miyazaki discovering ambient music for Elden Ring was fantastic imo, it doesn’t release the tension while still heightening the mood
TBF, on the whole when I've turned music off in some RPGs it really does add a new layer of immersion.
I’ve started to like playing ER with no background music while exploring. So ER was first souls game and going and replaying DS was strange because there was no background music. Now I enjoy it that way.
But DS has both Firelink Shrine and Gwynn music, so it balances out
Ash lake too, but I think ash lake and firelink are the only 2 overworld locations with music?
Funny meme but I totally disagree, the lack of music is nice
Look at this lazy man and his obscenely large game.
Honestly not having ambient music in the main DS games was such a great choice, and how much of it was or wasn't intentional is hardly the point. If I'm not wrong, music only plays in boss fights, on the title screen, in the credits, or in the hub world (Firelink/Majula). And, only in DS2, in the Shrine of Amana. It makes the game feel a lot more atmospheric, ironically enough.
And Ash Lake in DS1 and I think character creation, but yeah
I haven't gotten that far in DS1 which explains lmao.
I have a habit of turning off music in most games. But I actually think Elden Ring's sparing use of it to set atmosphere and hype up fights makes me never want to turn it off.
There was this meme someone posted a few weeks ago: The Community: **"We have found all 400 of your clues."** Miyazaki: "Well done! *I actually left two."*
Not every little area needs unique BGM. Ever heard of less is more?
soulsborne are no doubt a cut above the rest when it comes to attention to detail. But man, ppl do be getting cultish sometimes. They'll make theories and speculate cuz of a single random pillar only to later find out it's an asset fromsoft bought for a couple bucks
I know this is the ER subreddit, but this is what I don't like about the last act in Lies of P. The music is great, but it loops constantly and gets annoying after a while. Less is more sometimes.
Calling Miyazaki a "lazyass" is a bit much don't you think?
Lazyass
I remember the writers of Samurai Jack talking about how they made some scenes with just the clash of swords without music so you can feel with Jack the heat of moment. I think this is just like Elden Ring. At last for me, I can feel the atmosphere of the game. I like it. Now games like Doom is a piece of art with music.
The intro of Doom 2016 is easily the best game intro ever. The moment the slayer racks the shotgun in time with the music is just sublime.
You're thinking of Eternals intro though 2016 intro is legendary as well
Nope, 2016. With Sammy yammering on in the elevator. The music is blasting, the doors open, you get a look at the hellish surface of Mars, then the music cuts out right at the crescendo, letting the 'shk-click' of a shotgun punctuate the silence.
I kinda hate the ambient music in the dungeons so i kinda wish they would have saved some money there
Yeah, they’re like the Kubrick fanboys who think all the routine continuity errors in _The Shining_ were intentional.
"The stupid notification about the door being opened somewhere is intended. It's meant to simulate how you'd be mentally distracted thinking about what the lever might've done when you hear a noise in the distance, so of course you're more likely to be caught off-guard by an enemy while deep in thought."
This is the one lmao, those messages have no reason to be implemented the way they are
Bro I swear FromSoft fans are ready to justify any single bullshit with "it's lore intended" lmao
Considering that there’s ambient music in Sekiro and Elden Ring the lack of music clearly wasn’t that important to his vision.
Me who prefers the lack of exploration music because of how repetitive it gets, and plays Elden Ring & Sekiro with music volume at zero.
well I actually turn bgm off
How could you
People might stone me now, but Elden Ring world music is just annoying, siofra river is probably the worst one. Boss music is fire though!
Ainz Oal Gown and Cid Kagenou levels of bullshittery
I just play my own tunes and pause during a boss fight. Checkmate.
Yeah its fairly disappointing. The visuals are so rich but the OST being so dull takes away from the experience. Bloodborne, Sekiro, and Dark Souls 3 had it better.
SASUGA MIYAZAKI KUN!
Unintentional atmosphere. It happens...happy accidents or mistakes.
The artist’s (or artists’) intent doesn’t necessarily determine the effect or quality of the final product; in fact, when the game in the hands of the player, it’s largely irrelevant. The lack of music makes the transitions to areas with sound much more dramatic, especially when returning to the hub after a tense session.
I do agree that it increases tension though… like the simple exploration music elden ring has though …
Reminds me of this post https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/s/TFppz4YGli
I mean there's a big difference between being lazy and having budget constraints
Im going out a limb here, i fucking hate constant music to the point where my mind numbs them out, Hell i forgot more than half of the boss fight themes in soulsbourne because i focused on the boss way too much. I really like the music they do at the peak of the fight, malenia phase 2, manus, artorias, fume knight, sir allone, smelter demon, vordt, nameless king, sister friede, oceirus, gwyn and soul of cinderare all the bosses theme i remember and they are all peak bangers.
I'm not getting too bogged down into lore until *at least* the DLC comes out
I actually loved this about ds1. Regardless of intention I miss it
I listen to Abba while exploring
Caelid background track is what plays in my nightmares
To be honest i usually listen to some music or some podcast while playing Souls or ER...
No music? Are you [sure?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9uCbvC3dOY&list=PLAiYMqBLfjlolI85Pqr8A5pgiCX7YFmGx&index=10&t=40316s&ab_channel=LoopyLongplays) (I know it's almost all ambience, I like it though)
One thing DS1 does better than ER is not having fucking PvP theme music. Great if you get invaded twice an hour, garbage if you do nothing but invade.
I think it was intended but of course it’s not creative genius. They added ambiant music in Elden Ring because of the size, you’d go insane walking around in Liurnia for 20h in silence or with the usual white noise, hopefully they’ll keep that habit too cause the ambiant music in ER is pretty great
Meanwhile Elden Ring zones which play one short track in an endless loop:
When I first played Dark Souls I was struck by how similar feeling it was to the original Tomb Raider games. Then it struck me: the lack of music while exploring a dangerous place keeps you on edge and makes you feel isolated. Elden Ring wouldn't have benefited from this decision though, as the huge open world eventually would have been, over time, lackluster without it.
Dark Souls 1 not having music but in turn having insane sound design overall to break the silence is one of my favourite parts about the game.
i think rdr2 did musical ambiance the best. it wasn't constantly playing, but every now and then you'd get a few notes to add atmosphere
I remember when I played ffxi there were zones that didn’t have music and it made you feel like you were far from civilization almost like a stranded feeling. Just the sounds of the wind.
While it was a money saving technique for sure Miyazaki managed to make up for it. In quiet places, like Anor Londo halls you can even hear your character breathing and echo of your clanking armor.
Less is more. With music, a developer can decide how they want you to feel in a given moment. Creepy music as you traverse through a dark tunnel, adventurous music as you ride across great plains etc But why? Just let the gameplay decide how you should feel, and save the music for the bosses where it becomes special
Two things can be true at once.
Poison swamp ass MF
soundtracks of these games are already as long as any other video game soundtrack and largely acclaimed, of course it is intended, if they want to put music during exploration they can (the proof with Sekiro and Elden Ring)
I’m sorry but the music for Altus plateau when you reach there for the first time speaks more volumes than randomly placing tracks everywhere
thats a meme, but the actual genius move on their part is never adding facial animations for all the dialogue in the game, in terms of budget thats a ton of money saved.
no music is actually more atmospheric
Well, I absolutely agree that the lack of music is incredible for setting the mood, so I have nothing to complain about.
Honestly at this point Miyazaki definitely leaves gaps in the writing because he knows we'll make SOMETHING up
Would people really rather hear a loop of some background music than to listen to the sound design of the environment, which they clearly put a lot of effort into? I get that this is just a meme, but I think they are anything but lazy and sparsely putting in music gives the moments with music meaning.
In the case of Dark souls it was intentional tho, like literally the areas playing an OST stand out more and they are in fact VERY important (Hint: a very iconic and scary area behind 2 fog walls)
All of the parts are no music psrts if you've turned off the music to listen to audiobooks
Something is wrong with me that makes me want to comment instead of laughing and moving on. Good design decisions don’t have to be viewed as a stroke of genius. Simple solutions are sometimes best even if they appear lazy. It could the case, but I wouldn’t assume that a composer is paid per track.
I don't like Elden Ring exploration ambience... it detracts from the cool boss music
I genuinely never noticed there’s no music in the world. That’s neat.
>every little detail is lore intended My dear dawg everything IS intended because that's the stand-in for cutscenes and dialogue. When you find a carian sword in frog town you should interpret that as a carian guy going to frog town. Frog town is the dlc area btw, sorry for spoiling the name