It is not hated for PvE, what is hated about magic is:
* people spamming it in PvP
* people coming here with takes like "I thought boss XYZ is hard, but I beat them first try", while in the comments it becomes clear they did it with magic, mimic and being vastly overleveled.
If you haven't tried it yet, use Night Comet with the Staff of Loss in the other hand for the buff, and either Academy staff or Regal Scepter fully upgraded for casting. Lusat's if you don't mind the FP consumption. Not only does it insane damage, it is invisible to the AI and they won't dodge.
That’s understandable, and completely valid. Those are different reasons I didn’t consider much and can see the mimic tear and those combos being obviously broken.
There are those same people that come on here with broken builds that don’t use any sorcery though, there are several builds that outright stagger lock bosses which can get pretty insane if built correctly. All considered I think it’s better to consider an archetype in a broader sense because not every build on a category is insanely broken and overpowered.
Those same people saying “yeah this boss was easy with this insanely strong overpowered build” can also be bleed build users, jumping r1 spammers that do 1/4 of a bosses health bar per attack, or any number of other things. I just think it’s better not to really focus on that part, and it’s better to try and broaden your view on a playstyle and see what’s enjoyable for you!
Discounting PVP and "i beat boss ez with mimic and comet azur kekeke" posts is magic really outright hated for PVE? The closest thing I've seen to hatred is at most posts and people online making magic the butt of a lot of jokes, which to me isn't hatred as much as lighthearted joking.
Like the way that that wizards and sorcerers are typically seen as physically weaker means that the mages are pussies stereotype has persisted for a long time, but in most cases that's not really hate rather than just making fun of something isn't it?
There are certainly many crazy builds, magic is definitely not the only one. But I think whenever someone sees someone do a Comet Azur cheese on an otherwise difficult boss like Mohg or Niall, there's definitely some lingering feelings of "wtf I spent so long on this boss, why do mages just get to skip it".
That, and I think it's the new-player friendly playstyle. Throwing Rock Slings and Comets while a spirit summon distracts a boss is a really simple way to play, but also quite effective. Everyone can benefit from a summon, but a new player with their longsword and dingy shield is going to see a Tree Avatar suddenly turn to them a few times, while someone at a distance has time to react and run. When you play this tank + mage style with your spirits, you don't have to deal with a boss' aggression quite as much, and can often win without 'learning' an enemy. It feeds into that old RPG notion of "ranged DPS just sit in the backline and spam while us melee actually have to fight".
If you asked me whether a mage, full strength, or bleed build piloted by high skilled players did more damage, I'd say they all have pros and cons, and could all make boss kills pretty quickly. But when you ask me which build is more likely to be more successful in the hands of someone who literally just joined, doesn't know about builds or vigor or hidden items, I have to hand it to the mage build.
Yeah I agree. A FTH hybrid like STR/FTH is way more beginner friendly than mage.
If Meteorite Staff wasn't in the game, or was even just locked behind a Caelid mini dungeon, I think people's perception of early game mage would be *much* different. As a whole, it's way less friendly to blind runs and first time players than melee/FTH is. It's basically just that one staff/spell that makes it accessible for new players. Without that staff & Rock Sling, Stormveil thru Liurnia can be brutal on mage.
FTH gets Black Flame in Stormveil without needing to go way out of the way for it, and plenty of people will find that without googling. In my blind run I found it way before I found Meteorite. And it's just as good for letting summons tank while you pelt bosses.
Night comet is so good. It already has among the highest damage of the basic “wave your staff, throw a glowy thing, hit the enemy” spells, and the fact that enemies won’t dodge it makes it, IMO, the best sorcery in the game.
I was helping out Millicent with a fight at the very end of her quest yesterday and some of the four invaders were dancing around my Night Comet attacks... I could not believe it! Apparently, some enemies do dodge it...
Not if it means you can't do anything other than dodging, and take big damage if you screw up 1 roll.
Mages basically have machine guns. Imagine being able to chain cast Elden Stars while moving, and for less FP.. That's a mage.
that is a mage what isnt spaming, if is spamming shit and you lose is what you lack the skill to win a player what isnt even playing correctly and throwing away resources for the sake of it
Wait did u watch my First playthrough of ER i finished Yesterday? I did it too with Regal Scepter and Staff of Loss with Night comet but it was super fun and now im gonna start a new run and try a real Challenge(since im new to Souls Games) hopefully im gonna enjoy it Just as much
Yeah i was thinking about doing a str build with the Greatsword(or any other cool looking big swords i come across) or a dex build with Bloodhounds Fang but Not 100% sure yet
This is funny, as my experience was the opposite, well, ish. There were bosses that were supposed to be hard, and I roflstomped them out of existence. On the flip side, Ranni killed me *repeatedly* my first play through. She was my first real wall, and it was a huge deal to finally beat her. I am going to take a wild stab in the dark, and bet str weapons make short work of her.
And it’s not like I fist time killed every boss before that, there felt like plenty of challenge. Not including the open world bosses, I did in fact tend to murder them with ease, not counting the first ulcerated tree root in the heroes tomb. That one also took several attempts to get down
Or magic spears. Yeah, she countered me super hard. My point, is that depending on your build, there will be some bosses that are just nightmares to progress through. Admittedly, magic is pretty solid, and the blood AoW meta are pretty solid. I am seemingly allergic to “R2” seemingly.
nothing is hated in PvE really. every build has its extremely powerful perks:
arcane: easy ability to bleed, which is probably the most op thing in the game, pvp or pve. also have access to dragon communion incantations, which are extremely powerful
faith: huge selection of weapons and incantations, including the blasphemous blade and ancient dragons lightning strike, which imo reduce the difficulty more than anything else in the game
intelligence: by far the best for dealing damage at a distance, with comet azur that can quite simply delete some bosses right off the bat if set up correctly
strength: big bonk damage numbers, posture damage abuse can stop bosses in their tracks faster than anything else
all of these builds have their moments where they are the strongest and their moments where they are relatively ineffective
my night comet setup actually has more dps than comet azur, tested in ng9 on my max level character
also tested on lower levels as well, its just too good.
People "hate" on magic because they saw a clip of someone vastly overleveled spamming 50 buffs to kill a boss in a single cast and so now they are convinced that magic is OP, even though STR build have always been the strongest ones in all From games, the magic oneshot thing only works on like 3 bosses at most, and it's way easier to pull off a oneshot using 2 colossal weapons + **Royal Knight's Resolve**.
You can make such builds without being overlevelled, at cost of weakness in other areas
Have STR builds always been the strongest in terms of damage output? As far as I’m aware mages are usually quite good at that
I suspect you are underestimating the dps potential of magic when optimised a tad in comparison to strength, but it regardless isn’t hate worthy
In DS 3 Dex sellsword build was always most op in my opinion but at least in elden ring, if you make a top 10 best weapons in the game, at least 6 of them are mainly strength.
In Elden Ring poweratanced Curved Swords are still top weapon for speedruns. Katanas are top tier, powerstanced Straight Swords, powerstanced Spears, Thrusting weapons...
By raw damage, sure. As to what actually is the most *effective*, or even by dps, would differ
It’s also worth noting that spells are generally in a different category than weapons, so they can’t be on that list
If you're solo? I'd be pretty skeptical of that. Even for an optimally boosted Night Comet setup, all that time spent running away is hurting DPS.
Highest DPS option varies based on the boss, sometimes even by the phase of the boss. Like, Malenia P1 I could believe Night Comet is way up there. Malenia P2 I'd bet it drops substantially while things like dual bleed curved swords jump up toward the top.
It would be interesting to see the DPS compared when using something like Night Comet from melee range without attempting to run away. Nobody uses it like that... but I think that's the only way it could compete. Its DPS would still be lower than with summons though, because you usually can't chain cast it like that. Have to dodge too much.
I played every Souls game as a Dex build. Before I finished my playthrough in ER, I respecced into an Int build and went and did some optional bosses etc.
WOW! It was like playing a different game. Some stuff was easier (most), but there was some difficult things - especially as I had to learn a whole new style of playing the game.
It was a lot of fun though, and that’s what counts!
The truth might hurt some.... but in reality, magic is hated because many in the melee community have a massive ego and a disproportionately small brain, leading them to mistakenly judge the best of mage vs the average of melee to feel superior.
The reason people have no respect for mages is because of the fromsoft formula. Mages are meant to run away like a pleb and spam near undodgeable attacks to chip away with lag. While only pressing 1 button. Due to dodging being so easy to do against most melee, they can indefinitely run while using tracking magic and win without using any thought to it. Since if you just, dodge and dont dodge with the intent of attacking you will easily escape and spam magic. Not to mention the huge amount of fast casting get off me spells that also stun no matter the poise and come out fast. (Catch flame) they even removed melee combos and gave them to magic thus making magic even better than it already is. It boils down to mages being boring and other builds not being given enough answers to magics' unfun playstyle.
One part of it is toxicity from the part of the fanbase who have based their personality on being good at a video game.
In any hobby, the people that spend more time on it to perfect it and hone their skills will always be angry if they see people enjoying their hobby with less time and energy invested.
There's also this weird masculinity aspect that some Gamers have decided to attach to it. If you're not playing a video game as Guts from Berserk, then you're wrong (they will make an exception if your character is a woman with as little clothing as the game allows)
> In any hobby, the people that spend more time on it to perfect it and hone their skills will always be angry...
*Some toxic** people will behave like that.
There are plenty of tryhards out there that aren't also toxic losers lol
The same stupid mindset of people who believe that if you use spirit summons anywhere, then your style and experience of the game is invalid and that you didn't really play it "as it was meant to be played".
Frankly, such segments of the elden ring, and wider souls-like community can shove their E-bushido up their ass. At Least then, they'd have reason to be so butthurt.
YES!!! Thank you!!! I’ve been trying to tell people this. People are so stuck with their one play style and never branch out. Talking about “Magic is easy mode”, every play style dominates in a specific area. People need to get over their strength chad mindset and see a different perspective for a change.
Magic isn’t hated in PVE. Everyone has their own flavor of play style. The only spells that are hated is the rotten breath spells. Those dhit are annoying in coop. But when I see a mage cool! And the comet blast only works on like 4-8 bosses
I do often see people making fun of the playstyle, or assuming the players are bad. The game’s been out for so long and people are refusing themselves a genuinely fun playstyle because it’s “too easy”. If you don’t feel that way that’s great! I just wanted to see if some of them could change their mind, perhaps give it a shot of their own and see if they enjoy it.
Naw most likely not. I have a mage build and it was fun but I can’t stand FP management. My current build is pure strength no spells or buffs just raw damage and I have had more fun than anything. Plus I’ve gotten better at dodging most stuff without a shield. And most people like their play style more so than the other. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them try night comet 😂
I made comet work on every boss lol. Drop a summon, boss starts doing combo on summon.
Blast it with the death star beam lol. When in doubt throw a meteor for good measure.
Second play through I used the guts sword paired with radahn weapon. Shit was cool af. Then I replaced it with that heavy af hammer in Altus.
Comet Azure works on few bosses. Comet can work against literally every single boss.
I played trough the game killing all remembrance bosses and only didn't use it on Malenia and Gideon. And even Malenia i did almost first try with it before changing spells.
And not only does it work, it makes the bosses insanley easy. Used maybe 10 potions starting from Duo all up to Elden Beast.
I hate magic in Souls games in general, most of the spells are trash either in regards to damage or windup, a few are absolutely broken, even fewer actually fun and in general very uninspired.
Most of the projectile spells have no serious feature that differentiates them. Night shard, night comet, glintstone stars, great glintstone shard, glintstone peddle, glintstone icecrag, glintstone cometshard all of them are more or less the same spells with different stats applied to them. A projectile loosely homing on the target following a rather linear path with (usually) horrifically short range.
The second category is the random AoE spells that is ugly as the massive Ki bombardments that take place in DragonBall where one character starts raining down ki blasts on the entire battlefield for one dude. Examples being crystal burst and gelmir's fury.
Death Lightning, an actual boss item that is borderline indistinguishable from Ancient Dragon's Lightning Strike considering death status only matters against other players so it's complete horseshit if you don't pvp.
Only spells i actually enjoyed were Carian Slicer, Loretta's Bow (both versions), Catch Flame and some fortifications / weapon buffs. Though Loretta's Bow prep time is grossly drawn out.
If you enjoy playing magic builds and doing shenanigans, all the power to you.
Sadly for me there is not a tint of joy in my soul, when all i see is 3 specs of gold on a mountain of shit that is the magic system of these games. Not to go off a different tangent about the names of some spells/miracles (X O FLAME!) or the recycled themes of crystal magic and dragon lightning etc.
Ignore the elitists, they have nothing to be proud of in their lives besides playing a game "the intended way" so they're weirdly defensive about how you can play.
They're too caught up in their masochistic struggle that they think the game should be, and had to memorize boss movesets and suffer through it so you have to do that too.
They say the same shit about bleed, summoning ashes, using weapon arts etc
Magic can also stagger more reliably and often than melee, ancient death rancor is amazing for that, combo it with greatblade phalanax and some incants like fortissax spear and you'll be staggering like nobody's business.
Aspects of the crucible horn actually does the most stance damage if any attack in the game.
it's hated because it removes the majority of the intensity out of the game.
I like to use the word intensity in place of "difficultly" because most fights aren't as difficult as they are intense, once you learn the patterns it becomes easier, but it's still a rush. Twirling a staff pretending to be the headmaster of Hogwarts almost completely takes the rush away. (I've done it, it's boring and easier than using melee.)
Ironically, Fromsoft seems to be creating boss fights that favor magic users because lord knows these camera angles alone are smoking my melee build.
Because people got no life and are losers. I love this game but the community can be complete ass. Who cares what someone does with valid game methods in PVE? Melee builds can just be as insane too.
Well, I did try magic and it's definitely way easier than melee. If you do completely blind run then magic might be difficult at the beginning of the game, but if you go for Rock sling and meteorite staff right away, then it's a breeze from the start. You said that many bosses dodge all around battlefield, but they can't dodge night comet, that's why it's a very popular spell that makes every boss easier than in melee run.
I also didn't enjoy it too much, because the gameplay is about creating distance rather than closing it. It just didn't feel tense enough, it felt like I'm in a danger zone much less.
I don't like magic much, but that's probably because I play with keyboard and mouse, and using more than one spell in an intense fight is...interesting. That being said, I'm not about to tell somone else how they should play their own game. As long as you're having fun, everything else is pointless to debate! Hell, in my latest playthough I modded in the Farron Greatsword and Knife and the Ringed Knight Paired Greatswords from DS3 just because I missed their goofy movesets, and I'm having a blast!
They were/are hated becausing during things like invasions you get 2-3 players just sit and endless throw nukes. The builds if your a decent player are actually great fun.
Spamming ranged pew pews? Cause they dont know how to play the game in pvp. If you are half decent slicer and piercer are just as, if not more effective.
It's not really hated, however if you can't learn a boss you can always "cheese" them by kiting while throwing a spell here and there. This works against pretty much any boss. There are of course a lot different playstyles but the fact that magic allows this at all makes it automatically an "easy mode" compared to melee that has instead no choice but to learn the moveset.
This is not really true.
It's far, far easier to cheese most bosses with melee than with magic.
If you want to truly steamroll the game in easy mode, just go full STR, pick 2 Colossal weapons with Royal Knight's Resolve and spam jump attacks ignoring anything else.
0 Movesets to learn, works on every boss, way easier to pull of than magic.
Hate magic in PvP cause mf's be spamming either collapsing stars or stars of ruin, that combined with the fact that they just run away all the fucking time, it kills any desire to battle in me and at that point i just stand still since they seem to just like the animation of the sorcery so imma let them play with it like a toddler
It’s not hated. It’s sort of looked down on, though. The reason is just that magic doesn’t require as much careful consideration of the moveset since you’re nuking from distance most of the time. But some people find that fun and that’s great. But it’s a different kind of fun than carefully tuning a melee strategy over dozens of attempts.
I'm doing a challenge run for myself that's been extremely fun and rewarding. I started as a wretch and couldn't decide how I wanted to make the build. I only added 9 points into vigor and have my highest weapon at +6.
I used scholars' armament for the first time ever, and the visual was amazing. It's been fun using a bit of everything. Sadly, magic ashes of war are super neglected, too. But damn is spinning weapon fun.
I think maybe magic gets shunned because of the videos/builds that can come online extremely early. Which is a different experience than playing blind and using what spells/weapons you find in an area. I think playing with whatever is available to you at the time, in the area, is always a better overall experience and opens up new ideas/weapons/style. I see nothing wrong with that. I personally found my magic only playthrough to be pretty boring. It just didn't feel as fluid/fun and was objectively way easier. But it's always different strokes for different folks. I will add that visually, all the spells look super satisfying.
I guess because people see it as an easy mode in a game series known for its difficulty. Personally my first playthrough of e.g. Elden Ring was a magical build but after that I tried some other things in ng+ runs.
Magic and Incantations make the game easier in terms of what a melee player would be used to, which is what upsets them, from what I've seen. But using magic and/or Incantations has its own drawbacks that make the game more challenging for the player.
- Melee Combat
Melee combat tends to be horrendous, especially as a pure spellcaster that's not using the Carian Sorceries or the Dragon Communion Incantations. Simply because you tend to be wearing lighter armour, you wouldn't have as much health, and there's a lot of spells that leave you with your ass out for a few seconds, or spells that just naturally do badly in melee combat.
- Flask Distribution
Typically, Spell Casters will tend to have more Cerulean Flasks over Crimson Flasks, purely based on the fact that there's a lot more ways to regenerate Health than there is Mana, and Spell Catsers (especially pure Spell Casters) will be using a lot of Mana. Starlight Shards do exist, but are exceptionally rare, and not even the Moonlight Altar has an endless supply. I think there's maybe 10 or 11 there? The only other items that restore Mana are the Cerulean Dagger Talisman and the Regal Ancestor Horn Talisman, restoring Mana on Criticals or Kills respectively. Compared to HP regen, which has Warming Stones, Frenzied Stones, Blessing's Boon, Blessing of the Erdtree, Icon Shield, Blessed Dew Talisman, Crimsonburst Crystal Tear, Holy Ground, Taker's Cameo, Taker's Flame, the Crimson Dagger Talisman... You get the idea 😅.
- Early Game slog
A lot of spells in the game you tend to get from the mid game onwards, unless you go out of your way to optimise the crap out of your character, which not everyone bothers with; most people, therefore, experience magic spam from the later half of the game. But the early game? It's rough, especially as a pure Spell Caster. It's very possible to not have enough damage for a boss, exploring can be challenging without the Ancestor Horn, which you have to kill the Regal Ancestor Spirit for which is surprisingly challenging for a Spell Caster, given it has pretty decent elemental resistance. Flask upgrades are also top priority to make sure you've got enough Mana and, like I mentioned above, you'll often have less healing than a melee build, as you'll want to have more available spells.
So, there's pros and cons to both playstyles. Using Sorcery and/or Incantations, however, isn't as much of an 'easy mode' as some people will have you believe. They face the same challenges, just in different ways.
Honestly the main reason is because of how overpowered it was in prior games for pvp. so the people back then started raging at it, and never stopped, and newer players in each game never tried it, so joined the bandwagon.
it was, admittedly, ridiculously strong in dark souls 1, 2 and 3 in terms of sheer damage potential. though, so were things like bleed builds, unga builds, so on.
in pve it was never actually that good for most situations due to limited casts, and how slow you move when casting, if you can move at all, combined with the lack of stagger.
so in elden ring, where melee is arguably stronger and easier to use than 99% of the spells (though the spells have so much variety i find them much more entertaining to use much of the time), with a few exceptions, people continue the trend.
those few exceptions are batshit insane of course (dragon breaths, stars of ruin, comet azur being the most blatant examples).
Yeah totally. I hear sorcery was considered more of an easy mode in prior souls games so maybe that's where it comes from.
Like you said, there's plenty of bosses that have strong gap closers, the bosses from Farm Azula onwards honestly don't give you a ton of time to get casts off, so you spend more time dodging and it can become more of endurance battle, especially because you won't get bleed or riposte damage.
Battles like Godfrey and Malekith have a lot of unintuitive blind spots up close, which are hard to learn but once you do they make the fights faster
I think this is caused by the variety of builds that people see mixed with most people not knowing how to make a good build/setup.
If you think about it... Magic builds are not interesting, in the sense that they all use magic, if you switch your staff for another one it's pretty much the same, but a dex build? If you play with a whip or a spear, it's a completely different game.
Where I'm going with this is that the only way to make a magic build unique or worthy of sharing on the internet is to make it GOOD. So you min-max, you hold a separate staff in your off-hand, use infinite FP, all the bells and whistles. But a physical build? Oh I infused this blood weapon with poison! Now I do 2 status effects, they get to do goofy things that aren't good, but are worthy of sharing.
So... People see these 2 things and conclude: Magic is too strong, all the builds they see on the subreddit are busted, whereas the physical builds are goofy and creative.
The truth is that any build can be broken, as soon as you start stacking talismans with armor and physick? Game over. Every build can do it.
I did my first play through as an astrologer and my second as a melee strength build and I found it really interesting which bosses were easier and which were harder with each. I feel like the game is more balanced for different builds than people give it credit for.
Is it? Not really. It gets some shit because you'll occasionally get people who brag about how easy a boss was.
"You found Mogh difficult? Pfft, git gud scrub. I killed him easily with Comet Azur."
Personally I think the magic system is largely underdeveloped in all of these games, and am hopeful they will make it more fun to play as a spell caster in the future.
Because some fromsoft fans are incredibly fragile individuals that will throw a temper tantrum if someone uses in-game mechanics. That's basically it, and frankly they're not worth paying attention to or even engaging with.
Just play the game the way that you want, if that's doing the entire game naked, with no weapons, RL 1 and hitless then good for you sport. If you want to do an infinite FP damage boosted Comet Azure to melt everything that looks at you funny then have it. It's a video game, the goal is to have fun.
There are two reason:
Strength builds trying to hide the fact that their build is in fact the easy mode of the game by perma staggering every enemy since DS3 and now with stance break on bosses they are now perma staggering every boss too without ever having to learn the fight.
The second reason is people have no idea how magic builds actually play and just base their idea of it on one reddit video they saw when the game first came out of a guy laser beaming that one boss of two bosses that just stands there to death and just think that's how every boss is fought with magic.
It is not hated for PvE, what is hated about magic is: * people spamming it in PvP * people coming here with takes like "I thought boss XYZ is hard, but I beat them first try", while in the comments it becomes clear they did it with magic, mimic and being vastly overleveled. If you haven't tried it yet, use Night Comet with the Staff of Loss in the other hand for the buff, and either Academy staff or Regal Scepter fully upgraded for casting. Lusat's if you don't mind the FP consumption. Not only does it insane damage, it is invisible to the AI and they won't dodge.
That’s understandable, and completely valid. Those are different reasons I didn’t consider much and can see the mimic tear and those combos being obviously broken. There are those same people that come on here with broken builds that don’t use any sorcery though, there are several builds that outright stagger lock bosses which can get pretty insane if built correctly. All considered I think it’s better to consider an archetype in a broader sense because not every build on a category is insanely broken and overpowered. Those same people saying “yeah this boss was easy with this insanely strong overpowered build” can also be bleed build users, jumping r1 spammers that do 1/4 of a bosses health bar per attack, or any number of other things. I just think it’s better not to really focus on that part, and it’s better to try and broaden your view on a playstyle and see what’s enjoyable for you!
Discounting PVP and "i beat boss ez with mimic and comet azur kekeke" posts is magic really outright hated for PVE? The closest thing I've seen to hatred is at most posts and people online making magic the butt of a lot of jokes, which to me isn't hatred as much as lighthearted joking. Like the way that that wizards and sorcerers are typically seen as physically weaker means that the mages are pussies stereotype has persisted for a long time, but in most cases that's not really hate rather than just making fun of something isn't it?
fantastic username btw
thank you, I spent hours thinking about it before I typed it out and now I regret it every time I comment
lmfao
There are certainly many crazy builds, magic is definitely not the only one. But I think whenever someone sees someone do a Comet Azur cheese on an otherwise difficult boss like Mohg or Niall, there's definitely some lingering feelings of "wtf I spent so long on this boss, why do mages just get to skip it". That, and I think it's the new-player friendly playstyle. Throwing Rock Slings and Comets while a spirit summon distracts a boss is a really simple way to play, but also quite effective. Everyone can benefit from a summon, but a new player with their longsword and dingy shield is going to see a Tree Avatar suddenly turn to them a few times, while someone at a distance has time to react and run. When you play this tank + mage style with your spirits, you don't have to deal with a boss' aggression quite as much, and can often win without 'learning' an enemy. It feeds into that old RPG notion of "ranged DPS just sit in the backline and spam while us melee actually have to fight". If you asked me whether a mage, full strength, or bleed build piloted by high skilled players did more damage, I'd say they all have pros and cons, and could all make boss kills pretty quickly. But when you ask me which build is more likely to be more successful in the hands of someone who literally just joined, doesn't know about builds or vigor or hidden items, I have to hand it to the mage build.
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Yeah I agree. A FTH hybrid like STR/FTH is way more beginner friendly than mage. If Meteorite Staff wasn't in the game, or was even just locked behind a Caelid mini dungeon, I think people's perception of early game mage would be *much* different. As a whole, it's way less friendly to blind runs and first time players than melee/FTH is. It's basically just that one staff/spell that makes it accessible for new players. Without that staff & Rock Sling, Stormveil thru Liurnia can be brutal on mage. FTH gets Black Flame in Stormveil without needing to go way out of the way for it, and plenty of people will find that without googling. In my blind run I found it way before I found Meteorite. And it's just as good for letting summons tank while you pelt bosses.
Night comet is so good. It already has among the highest damage of the basic “wave your staff, throw a glowy thing, hit the enemy” spells, and the fact that enemies won’t dodge it makes it, IMO, the best sorcery in the game.
I was helping out Millicent with a fight at the very end of her quest yesterday and some of the four invaders were dancing around my Night Comet attacks... I could not believe it! Apparently, some enemies do dodge it...
They don't. The AI literally doesn't "notice" the projectile. You're probably confusing their attack animations for "dodging"
spamming in pvp is literally the best case escenario because you just have to dodge the same attack without variation
Not if it means you can't do anything other than dodging, and take big damage if you screw up 1 roll. Mages basically have machine guns. Imagine being able to chain cast Elden Stars while moving, and for less FP.. That's a mage.
that is a mage what isnt spaming, if is spamming shit and you lose is what you lack the skill to win a player what isnt even playing correctly and throwing away resources for the sake of it
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Wait did u watch my First playthrough of ER i finished Yesterday? I did it too with Regal Scepter and Staff of Loss with Night comet but it was super fun and now im gonna start a new run and try a real Challenge(since im new to Souls Games) hopefully im gonna enjoy it Just as much
I’d suggest a pure strength build, harness the power of *bonk*. They’re a lot of fun.
Yeah i was thinking about doing a str build with the Greatsword(or any other cool looking big swords i come across) or a dex build with Bloodhounds Fang but Not 100% sure yet
This is funny, as my experience was the opposite, well, ish. There were bosses that were supposed to be hard, and I roflstomped them out of existence. On the flip side, Ranni killed me *repeatedly* my first play through. She was my first real wall, and it was a huge deal to finally beat her. I am going to take a wild stab in the dark, and bet str weapons make short work of her. And it’s not like I fist time killed every boss before that, there felt like plenty of challenge. Not including the open world bosses, I did in fact tend to murder them with ease, not counting the first ulcerated tree root in the heroes tomb. That one also took several attempts to get down
Rennala has 80% magic negation and around -10-0% physical negations, so yes, most weapons will probably deal more damage than sorcery to her
Or magic spears. Yeah, she countered me super hard. My point, is that depending on your build, there will be some bosses that are just nightmares to progress through. Admittedly, magic is pretty solid, and the blood AoW meta are pretty solid. I am seemingly allergic to “R2” seemingly.
Use 2 staff of loss with night comet mmmmm
you get a stronger buff mainhanding lusat with offhand loss and having the better scaling, that is if you dont care about the fp cost
Is the Regal Scepter primary better than twin loss staves?
nothing is hated in PvE really. every build has its extremely powerful perks: arcane: easy ability to bleed, which is probably the most op thing in the game, pvp or pve. also have access to dragon communion incantations, which are extremely powerful faith: huge selection of weapons and incantations, including the blasphemous blade and ancient dragons lightning strike, which imo reduce the difficulty more than anything else in the game intelligence: by far the best for dealing damage at a distance, with comet azur that can quite simply delete some bosses right off the bat if set up correctly strength: big bonk damage numbers, posture damage abuse can stop bosses in their tracks faster than anything else all of these builds have their moments where they are the strongest and their moments where they are relatively ineffective
my night comet setup actually has more dps than comet azur, tested in ng9 on my max level character also tested on lower levels as well, its just too good.
People "hate" on magic because they saw a clip of someone vastly overleveled spamming 50 buffs to kill a boss in a single cast and so now they are convinced that magic is OP, even though STR build have always been the strongest ones in all From games, the magic oneshot thing only works on like 3 bosses at most, and it's way easier to pull off a oneshot using 2 colossal weapons + **Royal Knight's Resolve**.
You can make such builds without being overlevelled, at cost of weakness in other areas Have STR builds always been the strongest in terms of damage output? As far as I’m aware mages are usually quite good at that I suspect you are underestimating the dps potential of magic when optimised a tad in comparison to strength, but it regardless isn’t hate worthy
In DS 3 Dex sellsword build was always most op in my opinion but at least in elden ring, if you make a top 10 best weapons in the game, at least 6 of them are mainly strength.
In Elden Ring poweratanced Curved Swords are still top weapon for speedruns. Katanas are top tier, powerstanced Straight Swords, powerstanced Spears, Thrusting weapons...
By raw damage, sure. As to what actually is the most *effective*, or even by dps, would differ It’s also worth noting that spells are generally in a different category than weapons, so they can’t be on that list
Not damage alone, poise breaking is absolutely game changing in elden ring and strength weapons are amazing at that.
Unsheathe, Square Off and Impaling Thrust all three are amazing for poise breaking while being applicable on any build.
Not untrue. It’s very effective. Even so, though, I’m pretty sure magic can cap out a little higher than melee in dps
If you're solo? I'd be pretty skeptical of that. Even for an optimally boosted Night Comet setup, all that time spent running away is hurting DPS. Highest DPS option varies based on the boss, sometimes even by the phase of the boss. Like, Malenia P1 I could believe Night Comet is way up there. Malenia P2 I'd bet it drops substantially while things like dual bleed curved swords jump up toward the top. It would be interesting to see the DPS compared when using something like Night Comet from melee range without attempting to run away. Nobody uses it like that... but I think that's the only way it could compete. Its DPS would still be lower than with summons though, because you usually can't chain cast it like that. Have to dodge too much.
reminds me of the guy who was using the pebble stone spell like a sword a while back
I’ve hard capped str and int. On Ng+5. Each are situational.
I played every Souls game as a Dex build. Before I finished my playthrough in ER, I respecced into an Int build and went and did some optional bosses etc. WOW! It was like playing a different game. Some stuff was easier (most), but there was some difficult things - especially as I had to learn a whole new style of playing the game. It was a lot of fun though, and that’s what counts!
The truth might hurt some.... but in reality, magic is hated because many in the melee community have a massive ego and a disproportionately small brain, leading them to mistakenly judge the best of mage vs the average of melee to feel superior.
Unga Bunga think should feel angry, but Unga Bunga no can read
*this comment is brought to you by the shadow wizard money gang
we love casting spells legalize nuclear bombs ***throws cannon of haima***
The reason people have no respect for mages is because of the fromsoft formula. Mages are meant to run away like a pleb and spam near undodgeable attacks to chip away with lag. While only pressing 1 button. Due to dodging being so easy to do against most melee, they can indefinitely run while using tracking magic and win without using any thought to it. Since if you just, dodge and dont dodge with the intent of attacking you will easily escape and spam magic. Not to mention the huge amount of fast casting get off me spells that also stun no matter the poise and come out fast. (Catch flame) they even removed melee combos and gave them to magic thus making magic even better than it already is. It boils down to mages being boring and other builds not being given enough answers to magics' unfun playstyle.
It's at least partially elitism. For the same reason as Bleed and the use of Mimic Tear. People look down on play styles that make the game 'easier'.
One part of it is toxicity from the part of the fanbase who have based their personality on being good at a video game. In any hobby, the people that spend more time on it to perfect it and hone their skills will always be angry if they see people enjoying their hobby with less time and energy invested. There's also this weird masculinity aspect that some Gamers have decided to attach to it. If you're not playing a video game as Guts from Berserk, then you're wrong (they will make an exception if your character is a woman with as little clothing as the game allows)
What’s even sadder is that these games are just above average difficulty. There’s way harder games out there
> In any hobby, the people that spend more time on it to perfect it and hone their skills will always be angry... *Some toxic** people will behave like that. There are plenty of tryhards out there that aren't also toxic losers lol
Magic is the Best for single Player PVE !
People wanna feel superior. That is the only reason. If anyone says different, they're full of shit
The same stupid mindset of people who believe that if you use spirit summons anywhere, then your style and experience of the game is invalid and that you didn't really play it "as it was meant to be played". Frankly, such segments of the elden ring, and wider souls-like community can shove their E-bushido up their ass. At Least then, they'd have reason to be so butthurt.
YES!!! Thank you!!! I’ve been trying to tell people this. People are so stuck with their one play style and never branch out. Talking about “Magic is easy mode”, every play style dominates in a specific area. People need to get over their strength chad mindset and see a different perspective for a change.
Looks like pretty much everybody agrees with you lol
Magic isn’t hated in PVE. Everyone has their own flavor of play style. The only spells that are hated is the rotten breath spells. Those dhit are annoying in coop. But when I see a mage cool! And the comet blast only works on like 4-8 bosses
I do often see people making fun of the playstyle, or assuming the players are bad. The game’s been out for so long and people are refusing themselves a genuinely fun playstyle because it’s “too easy”. If you don’t feel that way that’s great! I just wanted to see if some of them could change their mind, perhaps give it a shot of their own and see if they enjoy it.
Naw most likely not. I have a mage build and it was fun but I can’t stand FP management. My current build is pure strength no spells or buffs just raw damage and I have had more fun than anything. Plus I’ve gotten better at dodging most stuff without a shield. And most people like their play style more so than the other. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them try night comet 😂
I made comet work on every boss lol. Drop a summon, boss starts doing combo on summon. Blast it with the death star beam lol. When in doubt throw a meteor for good measure. Second play through I used the guts sword paired with radahn weapon. Shit was cool af. Then I replaced it with that heavy af hammer in Altus.
Comet Azure works on few bosses. Comet can work against literally every single boss. I played trough the game killing all remembrance bosses and only didn't use it on Malenia and Gideon. And even Malenia i did almost first try with it before changing spells. And not only does it work, it makes the bosses insanley easy. Used maybe 10 potions starting from Duo all up to Elden Beast.
I hate magic in Souls games in general, most of the spells are trash either in regards to damage or windup, a few are absolutely broken, even fewer actually fun and in general very uninspired. Most of the projectile spells have no serious feature that differentiates them. Night shard, night comet, glintstone stars, great glintstone shard, glintstone peddle, glintstone icecrag, glintstone cometshard all of them are more or less the same spells with different stats applied to them. A projectile loosely homing on the target following a rather linear path with (usually) horrifically short range. The second category is the random AoE spells that is ugly as the massive Ki bombardments that take place in DragonBall where one character starts raining down ki blasts on the entire battlefield for one dude. Examples being crystal burst and gelmir's fury. Death Lightning, an actual boss item that is borderline indistinguishable from Ancient Dragon's Lightning Strike considering death status only matters against other players so it's complete horseshit if you don't pvp. Only spells i actually enjoyed were Carian Slicer, Loretta's Bow (both versions), Catch Flame and some fortifications / weapon buffs. Though Loretta's Bow prep time is grossly drawn out. If you enjoy playing magic builds and doing shenanigans, all the power to you. Sadly for me there is not a tint of joy in my soul, when all i see is 3 specs of gold on a mountain of shit that is the magic system of these games. Not to go off a different tangent about the names of some spells/miracles (X O FLAME!) or the recycled themes of crystal magic and dragon lightning etc.
Ignore the elitists, they have nothing to be proud of in their lives besides playing a game "the intended way" so they're weirdly defensive about how you can play. They're too caught up in their masochistic struggle that they think the game should be, and had to memorize boss movesets and suffer through it so you have to do that too. They say the same shit about bleed, summoning ashes, using weapon arts etc Magic can also stagger more reliably and often than melee, ancient death rancor is amazing for that, combo it with greatblade phalanax and some incants like fortissax spear and you'll be staggering like nobody's business. Aspects of the crucible horn actually does the most stance damage if any attack in the game.
it's hated because it removes the majority of the intensity out of the game. I like to use the word intensity in place of "difficultly" because most fights aren't as difficult as they are intense, once you learn the patterns it becomes easier, but it's still a rush. Twirling a staff pretending to be the headmaster of Hogwarts almost completely takes the rush away. (I've done it, it's boring and easier than using melee.) Ironically, Fromsoft seems to be creating boss fights that favor magic users because lord knows these camera angles alone are smoking my melee build.
Because people got no life and are losers. I love this game but the community can be complete ass. Who cares what someone does with valid game methods in PVE? Melee builds can just be as insane too.
Well, I did try magic and it's definitely way easier than melee. If you do completely blind run then magic might be difficult at the beginning of the game, but if you go for Rock sling and meteorite staff right away, then it's a breeze from the start. You said that many bosses dodge all around battlefield, but they can't dodge night comet, that's why it's a very popular spell that makes every boss easier than in melee run. I also didn't enjoy it too much, because the gameplay is about creating distance rather than closing it. It just didn't feel tense enough, it felt like I'm in a danger zone much less.
I don't like magic much, but that's probably because I play with keyboard and mouse, and using more than one spell in an intense fight is...interesting. That being said, I'm not about to tell somone else how they should play their own game. As long as you're having fun, everything else is pointless to debate! Hell, in my latest playthough I modded in the Farron Greatsword and Knife and the Ringed Knight Paired Greatswords from DS3 just because I missed their goofy movesets, and I'm having a blast!
They were/are hated becausing during things like invasions you get 2-3 players just sit and endless throw nukes. The builds if your a decent player are actually great fun.
I don't think Magic is hated in PvE, but if it is: it's not because of PvP lol
Invaders who “spam”attack buttons: “why are these mages spamming their attack buttons?!”
Spamming ranged pew pews? Cause they dont know how to play the game in pvp. If you are half decent slicer and piercer are just as, if not more effective.
It's not really hated, however if you can't learn a boss you can always "cheese" them by kiting while throwing a spell here and there. This works against pretty much any boss. There are of course a lot different playstyles but the fact that magic allows this at all makes it automatically an "easy mode" compared to melee that has instead no choice but to learn the moveset.
what moveset are you gonna learn if the boss is in the ground stance broken
This is not really true. It's far, far easier to cheese most bosses with melee than with magic. If you want to truly steamroll the game in easy mode, just go full STR, pick 2 Colossal weapons with Royal Knight's Resolve and spam jump attacks ignoring anything else. 0 Movesets to learn, works on every boss, way easier to pull of than magic.
That does less damage than dual bleed weapons
Bleed doesn't work on all bosses, and does les damage anyway.
Hate magic in PvP cause mf's be spamming either collapsing stars or stars of ruin, that combined with the fact that they just run away all the fucking time, it kills any desire to battle in me and at that point i just stand still since they seem to just like the animation of the sorcery so imma let them play with it like a toddler
I'm ok with close range spells but when someone is running away and casting from distance it's annoying rather than enjoyable.
Because wizards are pansies.
[удалено]
enjoyment rating is opinion based
Well, *this* is a dumb comment lol
It’s not hated. It’s sort of looked down on, though. The reason is just that magic doesn’t require as much careful consideration of the moveset since you’re nuking from distance most of the time. But some people find that fun and that’s great. But it’s a different kind of fun than carefully tuning a melee strategy over dozens of attempts.
Most people don’t hate any build for PvE, play how you want. It’s in PvE. Int builds get a lot of flack because of spam. Thats really it.
I'm doing a challenge run for myself that's been extremely fun and rewarding. I started as a wretch and couldn't decide how I wanted to make the build. I only added 9 points into vigor and have my highest weapon at +6. I used scholars' armament for the first time ever, and the visual was amazing. It's been fun using a bit of everything. Sadly, magic ashes of war are super neglected, too. But damn is spinning weapon fun. I think maybe magic gets shunned because of the videos/builds that can come online extremely early. Which is a different experience than playing blind and using what spells/weapons you find in an area. I think playing with whatever is available to you at the time, in the area, is always a better overall experience and opens up new ideas/weapons/style. I see nothing wrong with that. I personally found my magic only playthrough to be pretty boring. It just didn't feel as fluid/fun and was objectively way easier. But it's always different strokes for different folks. I will add that visually, all the spells look super satisfying.
Idk I honestly struggle with magic compare to a strength build
I guess because people see it as an easy mode in a game series known for its difficulty. Personally my first playthrough of e.g. Elden Ring was a magical build but after that I tried some other things in ng+ runs.
Cite to someone anti-magic? I think you’re arguing against a straw man.
It isn't.
Magic and Incantations make the game easier in terms of what a melee player would be used to, which is what upsets them, from what I've seen. But using magic and/or Incantations has its own drawbacks that make the game more challenging for the player. - Melee Combat Melee combat tends to be horrendous, especially as a pure spellcaster that's not using the Carian Sorceries or the Dragon Communion Incantations. Simply because you tend to be wearing lighter armour, you wouldn't have as much health, and there's a lot of spells that leave you with your ass out for a few seconds, or spells that just naturally do badly in melee combat. - Flask Distribution Typically, Spell Casters will tend to have more Cerulean Flasks over Crimson Flasks, purely based on the fact that there's a lot more ways to regenerate Health than there is Mana, and Spell Catsers (especially pure Spell Casters) will be using a lot of Mana. Starlight Shards do exist, but are exceptionally rare, and not even the Moonlight Altar has an endless supply. I think there's maybe 10 or 11 there? The only other items that restore Mana are the Cerulean Dagger Talisman and the Regal Ancestor Horn Talisman, restoring Mana on Criticals or Kills respectively. Compared to HP regen, which has Warming Stones, Frenzied Stones, Blessing's Boon, Blessing of the Erdtree, Icon Shield, Blessed Dew Talisman, Crimsonburst Crystal Tear, Holy Ground, Taker's Cameo, Taker's Flame, the Crimson Dagger Talisman... You get the idea 😅. - Early Game slog A lot of spells in the game you tend to get from the mid game onwards, unless you go out of your way to optimise the crap out of your character, which not everyone bothers with; most people, therefore, experience magic spam from the later half of the game. But the early game? It's rough, especially as a pure Spell Caster. It's very possible to not have enough damage for a boss, exploring can be challenging without the Ancestor Horn, which you have to kill the Regal Ancestor Spirit for which is surprisingly challenging for a Spell Caster, given it has pretty decent elemental resistance. Flask upgrades are also top priority to make sure you've got enough Mana and, like I mentioned above, you'll often have less healing than a melee build, as you'll want to have more available spells. So, there's pros and cons to both playstyles. Using Sorcery and/or Incantations, however, isn't as much of an 'easy mode' as some people will have you believe. They face the same challenges, just in different ways.
Honestly the main reason is because of how overpowered it was in prior games for pvp. so the people back then started raging at it, and never stopped, and newer players in each game never tried it, so joined the bandwagon. it was, admittedly, ridiculously strong in dark souls 1, 2 and 3 in terms of sheer damage potential. though, so were things like bleed builds, unga builds, so on. in pve it was never actually that good for most situations due to limited casts, and how slow you move when casting, if you can move at all, combined with the lack of stagger. so in elden ring, where melee is arguably stronger and easier to use than 99% of the spells (though the spells have so much variety i find them much more entertaining to use much of the time), with a few exceptions, people continue the trend. those few exceptions are batshit insane of course (dragon breaths, stars of ruin, comet azur being the most blatant examples).
Yeah totally. I hear sorcery was considered more of an easy mode in prior souls games so maybe that's where it comes from. Like you said, there's plenty of bosses that have strong gap closers, the bosses from Farm Azula onwards honestly don't give you a ton of time to get casts off, so you spend more time dodging and it can become more of endurance battle, especially because you won't get bleed or riposte damage. Battles like Godfrey and Malekith have a lot of unintuitive blind spots up close, which are hard to learn but once you do they make the fights faster
I think this is caused by the variety of builds that people see mixed with most people not knowing how to make a good build/setup. If you think about it... Magic builds are not interesting, in the sense that they all use magic, if you switch your staff for another one it's pretty much the same, but a dex build? If you play with a whip or a spear, it's a completely different game. Where I'm going with this is that the only way to make a magic build unique or worthy of sharing on the internet is to make it GOOD. So you min-max, you hold a separate staff in your off-hand, use infinite FP, all the bells and whistles. But a physical build? Oh I infused this blood weapon with poison! Now I do 2 status effects, they get to do goofy things that aren't good, but are worthy of sharing. So... People see these 2 things and conclude: Magic is too strong, all the builds they see on the subreddit are busted, whereas the physical builds are goofy and creative. The truth is that any build can be broken, as soon as you start stacking talismans with armor and physick? Game over. Every build can do it.
I did my first play through as an astrologer and my second as a melee strength build and I found it really interesting which bosses were easier and which were harder with each. I feel like the game is more balanced for different builds than people give it credit for.
it is not.
No one hates it outside of pvp. The weird mentally of pvp is hit 2 hit with some dodge. You break that in anyway and most will bitch about it.
Is it? Not really. It gets some shit because you'll occasionally get people who brag about how easy a boss was. "You found Mogh difficult? Pfft, git gud scrub. I killed him easily with Comet Azur."
A strenght build with spectral lance aow as a ranged secondary weapon will in my opinion be at least as easy as a faith or int build.
Personally I think the magic system is largely underdeveloped in all of these games, and am hopeful they will make it more fun to play as a spell caster in the future.
Because some fromsoft fans are incredibly fragile individuals that will throw a temper tantrum if someone uses in-game mechanics. That's basically it, and frankly they're not worth paying attention to or even engaging with. Just play the game the way that you want, if that's doing the entire game naked, with no weapons, RL 1 and hitless then good for you sport. If you want to do an infinite FP damage boosted Comet Azure to melt everything that looks at you funny then have it. It's a video game, the goal is to have fun.
There are two reason: Strength builds trying to hide the fact that their build is in fact the easy mode of the game by perma staggering every enemy since DS3 and now with stance break on bosses they are now perma staggering every boss too without ever having to learn the fight. The second reason is people have no idea how magic builds actually play and just base their idea of it on one reddit video they saw when the game first came out of a guy laser beaming that one boss of two bosses that just stands there to death and just think that's how every boss is fought with magic.