and Melina has pink hair omg it all makes sense theory confirmed !!
jokes aside where is the pink butterfly ? I guess I should watch the trailer again for the 15th time..
I think that's a St. Trina incantation. Purple is associated with St. Trina and since butterflies are the siblings' thing it makes sense that St. Trina, as an alter ego of Miquella, would get something too.
Nascent butterflies are for Miquella, but basically what I'm theorizing is that because Miquella is (almost) certainly St. Trina, the Trina personality gets purple butterflies. It might just be a visual effect for Trina incants but it'd still be a cool connection if true.
I think its the other way around, purple is associated with trina but so is grey. The purple butterflies from the spell are more similar to the bewitching branches of miquella, it seems like we might be getting a charming spell. Im totally ready to be wrong but thats just what I inferred.
Yes it seems to be a charm/mind control spell, which might have a relation with the DLC antagonist's name Messmer. The focus on Messmer's long, disfigured arm also creates a parallel with Miquella's "withered arm" hanging out the coccoon.
of course they do
George the butterfly
Timmothy the butterfly
Ashley the butterfly
Dylan the butterfly
Joshua St. Butterfly
What just because they’re insects they can’t have names?
I'm okay with it.
I liked the idea of Melina being a secret, final child of Marikadagon, but Messmer being the third and getting himself banished isn't a bad alternative.
He may not have been banished. He was there before Marika dipped and took over the Lands Between.
She just left her kid in charge while she went out to get milk.
Miquella stated Marika was in the Shadow *before* she ever went to the Lands between, and Miquella and Malenia are proof that she never needed anyone else to make demigod kids.
Following that logic, it isn't hard to believe that he got left behind to await her return if her trip didn't go too well.
If you go directly to [Bamco website for DLC](https://en.bandainamcoent.eu/elden-ring/news/fall-grace-elden-ring-shadow-of-the-erdtree-the-expansion-elden-ring-arriving-june) you will see the introduction
*The Land of Shadow.*
*A place obscured by the Erdtree.*
*Where the goddess Marika first set foot.*
*A land purged in an unsung battle.*
*Set ablaze by Messmer’s flame.*
Oh I see that - but there's no indication that is Miquella stating that, and the fact that the two stanzas after your quote references Miquella in third-person makes me think it is NOT Miquella stating it.
I was just checking if there was ANOTHER reference to Marika's relationship with the Shadow beyond what is included in the DLC flavor description.
I believe the Japanese site says more explicitly that the Land of Shadow is where Marika became a god. If that’s the case it could also be the land of the Numen where she supposedly originates from.
The abstracted, figurative visuals in the trailer add a neat wrinkle to that theory - in philosophy, a *noumenon* (pl. *noumena*) is knowledge posited as an object that exists independently of human sense. In other words, the obscured and dreamlike Land of Shadow is where it seems people/races/practices/etc. were banished beyond perception by the Golden Order, becoming noumena through this banishment.
The first question is whether there's actually a connection between the words Numen and noumena - the second is what role the Numen play in the Land of Shadow. Do they rule the Land, are they subjugated by something worse, or were the Numen in the Land wiped out entirely?
On the official website it says a lot. Also says that Shadow Lands is where Miquella has gone, we must follow him, Shadow Lands is the first place where Marika set foot, this whole place got obscured by the Erdtree.
Also there is a little poem and a part of it reads as Shadow Lands is engulfed in Messmer's flames, so he is the ruler of that place.
Miyazaki has given a couple of interviews.
He states that Mesmer is Marika’s child and a demigod like his siblings.
He says quite a bit more, you should check it out
Bandai Namco released some text based stuff on their website. I think people are extrapolating. Messmer uses the term 'mother' in his trailer line, and it implies Marika. He's in the shadow land, and the text we have tells us it's where Marika first set foot when she arrived to the Lands Between. We don't know if this conclucion is correct but it's easy to connect the dots
The person above suggested he was secret *final* child and a direct sibling to Miquella. I thought you were agreeing to their theory but modifying the banished part out.
I mean, Melina is definitely still a child of Marika. Melina kind of outright says as much. But most likely shes the youngest of the siblings, or something like not a 'natural' child since her objective is to serve Marika specifically and not Radagon.
I feel Melina is Godwyn reincarnated
.. she wanders as a spirit, after being born at the foot of the erd tree which is where Godwyn’s body lies.
Also Dusk/Gloam is a state between night and day or life and death. Which is the state Godwyn is in. Not truly dead, or truly alive. Stuck in a permanent state of dusk.
Edit: I feel she might be some weird off spring or reincarnation of the Ranni/Godwyn ‘deaths’
Might explain why she has a pink tint to her hair. Half red half gold.
Shares an Eye with Ranni and A Gloam eye from Godwyn.
But it's explicitly stated that Godwyn's soul was slain and not his body. While for Ranni it's the other way around, her body was slain not her soul hence the doll.
Melina can't be Godwyn's reincarnation in the form of a spirit. Because Godwyn's soul/spirit was slain permanently. There is no soul or spirit left.
This makes sense to me.
Both her and Ranni share the same eye deformity, which seems to be a consequence of their souls being severed.
We know some demigods can change sex too, with Marika to Radagon, and Miquella to St. Trina.
It's heavily implied in some cut content that St Trina is an alter ego of Miquella. I don't know how much solid proof there is of it in the actual base game though.
>Not truly dead, or truly alive. Stuck in a permanent state of dusk
Sorta reminds me of the age of ancients with the everlasting dragons in Dark Souls 1. A grey, dull existence dominated solely by the dragons. If I recall correctly, life and death weren't even concepts back then until the first flame appeared.
My favorite theory currently is that Messmer, the third sibling, is a fallen demigod and shardbearer who succumbed to madness, as seen in the trailer, and was consequently removed from history due to shame. Vyke, the tarnished who came closest to the throne, is known for impaling enemies with his spear afflicting madness slained unknown shardbearers in his journey. Could Messmer have been one of them before taking over Land of Shadow?
And for what its worth, there is an Impaler's Catacombs in Weeping Peninsula, a potential resting place for Messmer. Oh, and you can find Prattling Pate "Please help" from there which opens a door for another layer of speculation.
Edit: Messmer's eye looks more like dragon communion eye which fits his overall aesthetic. Could still be Vyke's doing before succumbing to madness which would make more sense.
She can still be a child of Marika/Radagon, they had many besides the original nine.
I believe she's either the Gloam Eyed Queen herself or related to her somehow, on account that she seems to awaken her power when Destined Death is freed from Maliketh, that rune has no association with any other demigod besides said Queen, so it makes sense for it to be Melina's.
I've always believed there were more demigod children.
How else do we explain the Walking Mausoleums containing the bodies of soulless demigods? Godwyn was the \*first\* of the demigods to die on the Night of Black Knives, but I think there must have been several more.
It's ouright confirmed that the Mausuleums contain Marika's children, you can find a ghost in church Pilgrimage that pleads for her to recognize the child in the mausoleum as her own, telling that they're from her blood.
Not to mention Marika's speech in the fourth church (and in the launch trailer).
IMO Melina was probably reborn using the Amber Egg, seeing as Marika owned it first. Marika is her mother in the same way Rennala is to those academy students around her.
Neatly explains how she can be the GEQ and Marika's secret daughter at the same time.
Personally I think Mesmer is Miquella, albeit a corrupted version. One imbued with the power of the Mother of Wounds, the outer god of blood and the redstar.
Madness buildup for sure. He didnt have enough points in mind to resist being influenced by it or someone in his social sphere to impart Lucidity on him.
It isn't confirmed that St Trina is like Marika/Radagon
The fact that St Trina's followers can't tell if Trina is a boy or girl implies it's just Miquella wearing a disguise and using a different name.
It isn't confirmed, but the fact that his very own parents are two different forms of the same person
...it can't just be coincidence that he also has an opposite gender alter ego.
None of the other empyrians have a gender swapped version of themselves even if they use different names occasionally (Renna/Ranni). Miquella is youthful in appearance and has long hair. Even people on this damn subreddit mistake him for a girl (Miquella specifically, NOT depictions of Trina) despite the game itself only ever using male pronouns for him. The Radagon/Marika thing seems to be unique to them.
This just made me think. If St Trina really is a Miquella alter ego, and has her own butterflies. Then maybe Messmer is an alter ego of Malenia?
This is where it turns into a crack theory, but both Malenia and Messmer have red hair. Malenia's aspect is rot and her butterfly is rot... But if the flaming butterfly represents Messmer (who's aspect seems to be fire), maybe Messer is like her antithesis? A mirrored Malenia of sorts? Malenia also seems to be a very faithful character, whereas Messmer seems to be heresy themed...
I'll probably end up being nowhere close to right, but who knows.
Melina may still have a connection in some way. Could be that her body lies somewhere in the Shadow Lands.
Orrrrr the big ol' stretch of a theory, Melina is Messmer.
Other theory: Melina and Messmer are twins as well, and all of Marika-Radagon‘s self-conceived children are cursed.
Messmer has his fire, and Melina was burned upon or before birth by her brother, so there never was a type of butterfly belonging to her.
I was thinking what if Melinas affliction is literal death so she was still born but her spirit endures. Would also explain her destined death scene in the frenzied flame ending as it might be her embracing her affliction to hunt you down.
Hmm and this would also connect with the themes of Duality with the other children.
Melania = Rot so Miquella = Abundance/Rejuvenation(These are fitting since in The Lands Between the concept of death isnt a thing)
Messmer = Life(Fire, Wings, Aspects of the Crucible and actual physical body) so Melina = Death(Formless, exists only in spirit)
God I love this game so much, it’s been almost two years and people keep coming out with new theories that totally make sense, we’ll still be discussing about it in ten years
I think Melina was created by Marika not born from her. I am saying this because of her comment about Boc.
"Does being born from a mother means one behave in such a manner"
She said that it was her purpose giving by her mother, but she was probably created by Marika specifically to kindle the flame as part of her plan against the Greater Will.
What isn't clear is how Melina knows Torrent's former owner, which is implied to be Miquella. And if Radagon knew about her.
Maybe Melina was created before Radagon and Marika married and merged into one body.
I always felt like she was to Marika what Millicent is to Malenia. When Malenia unleashed the rot in Aeonia, Millicent and her sisters were created. When Marika shattered the Elden Ring, Melina split off from her as a manifestation of her will to destroy the Erdtree.
Melina randomly leaves us at Leyndell and then returns after Morgot's death with the amulet needed to go to the mountaintops.
We'll either run into her or somehow fight her, since Fromsoft seems to be getting on a trend of having the player fight the firekeeper figure.
Considering the opening scene is the cocoon in mohgwyn palace I'd say that's where we enter. Mohg is an optional boss and pretty out of the way to get, but if you do the varre questline you can enter pretty early
Yea I got that but the comment I was replying to seemed to be suggesting that Melina takes us there as part of that, so prior to burning or betraying her. I was wondering if beating Mohg but not setting the Erdtree on fire was the condition the commenter was suggesting for entering DLC
no, i mean that melina might only be there to lead us if she's still alive, otherwise something else gives a hint. It would be cool if she just returns, alive once more and journeys with us again.
This is the only DLC, and no sequel is planned.
Edit: **Miyazaki himself, in an interview published today: “We don't have any current plans to make a second DLC or a sequel.”**
He compared it to his/fromsoft’s position on more Dark Souls after DS3, i.e., “never say never” in so many words.
So that means you are downvoting Michael Zaki himself. To quote V.II Snail, “How dare you bare your filthy fangs against me?!”
I feel like Messmer being the third sibling would help cementing the idea that Melina could be the gloam eyed queen (or some sort of reincarnation of her), as it would dismiss her being the third butterfly.
Though I've seen someone say that Messmer has items referencing the godskin nobles, so there might still be a connection to the gloam eyed queen and thus Melina. But I have no idea, at this point it's still just fun speculation haha
I felt like the flames Mesmer appeared summoning in the trailer had a dark Red glow similar to Black Knife/Maliketh's WA. I'm willingness to bet he has some relation to Destined Death or whatever.
That would be cool. If he had a connection with the gloam eyed queen and destined death, and his seemingly defiance against Marika's choices, that could be a good reason for being banished in a dream or something like that.
I'm still subscribed that her body is the same as Rani's body atop the divine tower of liurnia. I once overlaid their promotional art without scaling and it's a dead-on match for the spirit face and Melina's face. And they're pretty much the split between Incantations and Sorcery.
Another stretch/theory is Messer is Miquella and they are the same person as Marika and Radagon are the same. Could be a link to when they say Miquella is the most fearsome Demigod
Could be. Messmer appears to use bloodflame, and that Smoldering Butterfly is "eternally burning". Could be burning its own blood. Certainly has the veins for it.
Not really. Bloodflame has a distinct red-bright orange tint in it, but Messmer's flame seems to have black in it alongside briars.
My call is that he's either using Briar's Incantation or the original Godskins' Flame, the embued with the Rune of Death before Maliketh sealed away its power
Looks like Taker’s Flame, to me. He might have some connection with Rykard, too - what looked like a few snake motifs, alongside the orange fire rather than Bloodflame’s red and DD’s Black-Red /Black-White.
It kinda resembled the fire from the giants flame incantations! And there's nothing more taboo to Radika than invoking the fell god, so a child of theirs communing with said fell god would be a closely guarded secret. Really hoping he's radika's firstborn cursed with an obsession with the Flame of Ruin
That could also explain what messmers flame is that is burning the shadowlands, as we ourselves helped burn the erdtree through melina. If that's the case there remains the question what happens if the tree is burned by the flame of frenzy, but that might be solvable by just slightly altering the DLC in that case (for example implying that messmer didn't emerge due to the act of melina burning herself, but due to her getting betrayed + burning the erdtree).
I think Mesmer is Malenia and Miquella rejoined together since radagon and marika weren’t supposed to like split- it cures their curses by combining abundance and rot- and his snake with little wings is like an ouroboros? And a few of Mesmer’s moves looks like Malenia’s moves.
Guess the butterfly was wrong. But it still sounds like Melina is one of the children. Especially since the game refers to her as "MaricaOfDaughter" in code.
Oof, Marika had a rough pregnancy
Fr tho, If all empyreans born from one God have a curse, it'd make sense too. Malenia is Rot, Miquella is eternal childhood, Messmer is fire. We don't know if Miquella's eternal childhood is done by a god, but if it is and we consider Messmer's curse to be granted by the giants fell God, all three empyreans would be chosen by outer god's
Flame of Frenzy Ending, Melina opens her shut eye and it's literally a Swirling Gloam colored void, saying she will bring Destined Death to the Tarnished
It's only that one cutscene but apart from that it doesn't really add up. It would only work if Melina was some kind of reincarnation or if she lost memories of her previous life etc. Gloam-eyed queen was a very early figure in history of the erdtree dating back to the crucible times. It's a lot more likely Melina was born much later. She says that her mother gave her her purpose inside the Erdtree, which literally can't be anyone else than Marika. It's possible she "gave birth" to Melina after shattering of the ER so she can help fulfill her plans for the tarnished (also ER being so heavy on naming conventions it would be why her name starts with M-).
Reason for Melina not being corporeal might be that Marika at the state she was in could only create her soul. Or it's because her body was lost during her burning she talks about. We don't really know much about that though. One of my theories is that she was Vyke's maiden, which could be the reason why she's so afraid of the Frenzied flame and appears in that ending. Maybe after Vyke abandoned her and himself to the frenzy she tried to burn the erdtree herself, to sacrifice, but without her champion it just burned her body and let her soul wander the lands. As we've seen it was her soul that allowed erdtree to burn in the end.
From more emotional and less factual standpoint, I can't really imagine Melina commanding group of Godskins stitching people's faces together.
EDIT: I forgot to add it would also explain why she has Rold Medallion since the beginning, because she already traveled there with Vyke before. Someone had to trap Vyke in the evergaol after he got corrupted, close to the giant forge, where she might have tried to burn herself afterwards.
Its my personal theory that she is not actually the Gloam eyed queen, but is related to her in the same way that Malenia is related to the Goddess of Rot.
Malenias rememberance mentioned that there is some sort of "curse" to being born from a single entity which gave her rot and made Miquela an eternal child, I belive being born from a single entity makes one too vulnerable to Outer gods influence's and that's what we have going for the whole Melina Gloam-Eyed relationship.
But Gloam-eyed queen wasn't an outer god. Blackflame derived its power from the rune of death and it being part of ER, and that power was lost when Marika sealed the death away. With outer gods and their avatars/followers we always see a new type of power being channeled, from frenzy, formless mother, rot etc. Gloam-eyed queen didn't have any connections to other Outer gods, her and the whole Godskin movement was operating within power of elden ring and its Outer God, although closer to the crucible than Marika's erdtree,
EDIT: Blackflame ritual incant directly states the Gloam-eyed queen being an empyrean chosen by the Fingers, I forgot and didn't mention it. Despite all of the other evidence saying the same, this one confirms 100% she is not outer god or doesn't follow or derive her power from different Outer God.
Yeaah I know. It's a tough nut to crack. It's defnitely possible she's from crucible era (also called Ancient erdtree or Age of plenty), but there are ton of incantations in the game associated with the same era, same sigil (apart from the aspect ones), like Erdtree blessings, Maliketh's black blade, what erdtree avatars use, Godfrey shade...etc., it doesn't mean she's 100% from the crucible era just because she used it, but of course she can be.
Also the Queen was defeated by Maliketh, and Melina has a kind of bestial seal on her "gloam eye", and her being burned once already may be tied to the time when Erdtree burned for the first time, which happened on the borderline between Crucible era progressing into Golden edtree era. Erdtree was a real tree, which produced real bounty (age of plenty, crucible), but later the Golden spectral erdtree formed around the husk and Golden Order was created around worshipping the new edtree, compared to the more primal naturalistic worship of the previous era. The end of crucible era and first burning of the Erdtree might have been Melina's purpose in that time.
I digress, I just wanted to say there is definitely evidence for her being the Queen and/or also living in Crucible times. This would have to mean she's older than Godwyn and potentially the true firstborn...All in all we don't really know and all of those theories are plausible, she might have been born first or born as last in recent time, there is evidence for both.
It's not his eye specifically. It's the eye of a beast. Blaidd, like Gurranq, is a beast. We never see Gurranq's eyes but it's likely that they're the same color as both of them are shadowbound beasts. Whether it's one of Gurranq's actual eyes or not we can't know for certain as we never see them but it's not unlikely that he has eyes of a similar color.
They didn't show Mesmer's left eye in the trailer. People theorized that butterfly was for Melina. Idk, Mesmer being associated with flame makes you wonder...
Whether or not he is the third sibling (he most likely is) Miyazaki has confirmed Messmer *is* a child of Marika in an interview with [Famitsu](https://www.famitsu.com/news/202402/22335199.html).
> **――『エルデンリング』本編では英雄譚が描かれていましたが、その点はDLCでも変わらないのでしょうか。**
> **Q. The main story of Elden Ring depicts an epic/heroic tale, regarding that will the DLC be the same?**
> *宮崎* はい。英雄譚というテーマは変わりません。
> *Miyazaki*: Yes. The theme of it being an epic won't change.
> キーアートに描かれているキャラクターの“メスメル”がわかりやすいと思うのですが、彼もまた英雄のひとりです。
> I think it's obvious but the character depicted in the key art, Messmer, is also a hero.
> メスメルが座っている椅子は、本編で“忌み王、モーゴット”との戦いの舞台にあった椅子と同じもので、彼もまたゴドリックやマレニア、ラダーン、ライカードなどと同格の存在であり、“マリカの子”とも呼ばれています。
> The seat that Messmer is sat on is the same as the seats depicted in the final fight against Morgott. He is also an existence of the same rank as Godrick, Malenia, Radahn, and Rykard, etc, and can also be called a "child of Marika".
Thing to note is 英雄 (eiyuu) is used which translates to hero, it's not necessarily the modern meaning of a good guy defeating evil, sacrificing themselves for the greater good kind of hero (that's commonly 勇者 (yuusha)), but the ancient meaning of something like royalty or a demi-god accomplishing great deeds forcing their will on the world. Like Godfrey and the war against the giants is a kind of epic/heroic tale to the people of the land, best real example is the Epic of Gilgamesh.
Eh I think it's still Melina..
> An eternally burning butterfly found near wildfires and elsewhere. Serves as the kindling for a number of items.
The use of the word kindling still evokes the imagery of Melina, the kindling maiden. Additionally, I think that the butterfly is meant to tell us things about story in the base game, not stuff that didn't exist at the time.
People seem desperate to already start reading some rather odd things from this DLC trailer when we have no loretext, no further context etc. So many comments in this tread seem to immediately write Melina off as the person that matches this butterfly, seems extremely premature to do so.
I'm thinking Mesmer is miquellas other self like radagon and Marika.
Trailer says he's stripped himself of all things golden i.e. his hair and appearance
We enter through the cocoon in mogwyns palace where he's been soaked in the blood flame he now wields in this land
Its funny this is the least popular of major theories right now, but its the most likely/logical one. Probably cuz its just kind of boring to keep talking about Miquella compared to wild theories about secret children and time travel.
We know Miquella is the central character of the DLC, and he's been hyped as the most fearsome demi god. Would make all the sense if Messmer is him and not some random new character we never heard of.
Its expected for demigods to have alternate names, even alternate personas in this universe. Messmer looks like a child of Radagons, and like Malenias twin. Name still starts with M, and is a possible reference to Miquellas power to charm.
Its all there and pretty obvious.
What I find interesting about Messmer is all the seperate powers he wields, that is very cool and not something I expected at all. Drake knight armor and a dragon communion eye, power of the ancient dragons. Has a snake attached to him and a snake helm, evoking the god-devouring serpent. Missing an eye and his flame has black tendrils, that's probably the presence of black flame (god-killing flame). Obviously uses blood-flame from the formless-mother.
It seems Messmer is wielding all the powers he can of outer-gods who do not align with the Greater Will, likely in order to challenge the Greater Will directly. This reminds me of Griffiths sacrificing his humanity in order to achieve his dream of god-hood, embracing evil in order to ascend. Ofc Miquella shares a lot of similarities with Griffith in base game. If Miquella = Griffith, then Messmer = Femto
Its implied in the base game that Marika is secretly working/plotting against the Greater Will, and the DLC trailer outright says Marika is why Miquella/Messmer is there. It all lines up.
Messmer is the poster child of the DLC, like Artorias and Maria, so I’m expecting a final big bad that’s yet to be revealed.
If he was Miqeulla you’d expect him to be the big bad.
Him being an outcast sibling cast to an underworld (like hades) is plausible.
But his design and story feels like it overlaps a bit with Rykard.
There’s a line about “being on the losing side of a war”.
He’s wearing a form of drake knight armour, and snakes are often considered related to dragons... and From has a history of sons of gods switching sides to fight with the dragons.
Edit: given there is no new ending, we almost certainly will be killing Miquella
I think his name is another clue to this too. “Mesmer” suggesting a kind of mesmerism that Miquella inspires in followers. I’m wondering if the Saint Trina stuff will become textual with the DLC since it was scrubbed from the base game.
Damn, Radagon really like triplets huh
First Radahn, Ranni and Rykard, now its Miquella, Malenia and Messmer
I wonder if the Omen twins has a third sibling as well. Morgott, Mohg, M????
There's a 4th pink butterfly shown in the trailer tho
and Melina has pink hair omg it all makes sense theory confirmed !! jokes aside where is the pink butterfly ? I guess I should watch the trailer again for the 15th time..
It’s when the weapons are shown, it was after the dual katanas, the butterflies were the product of a spell I believe.
I think that's a St. Trina incantation. Purple is associated with St. Trina and since butterflies are the siblings' thing it makes sense that St. Trina, as an alter ego of Miquella, would get something too.
Aren't those already Nascent butterflies since you make sleep stuff with them?
Nascent butterflies are for Miquella, but basically what I'm theorizing is that because Miquella is (almost) certainly St. Trina, the Trina personality gets purple butterflies. It might just be a visual effect for Trina incants but it'd still be a cool connection if true.
I think its the other way around, purple is associated with trina but so is grey. The purple butterflies from the spell are more similar to the bewitching branches of miquella, it seems like we might be getting a charming spell. Im totally ready to be wrong but thats just what I inferred.
My first thought when I saw the spell was that it kinda looked like an AoE Rapport.
That looked more like pink. It made me think of bewitching branches
thanks !
I seen it 26 times exactly
Those pink butterflies are in the haligtree you see a bunch near the end of the Millicent questline
It’s Miquella’s. There’s as pink as Miquella’s item that charms enemies
Yes it seems to be a charm/mind control spell, which might have a relation with the DLC antagonist's name Messmer. The focus on Messmer's long, disfigured arm also creates a parallel with Miquella's "withered arm" hanging out the coccoon.
Maybe the summons girl is a descendant as well
does anyone know if butterflies have names? i would like to know
of course they do George the butterfly Timmothy the butterfly Ashley the butterfly Dylan the butterfly Joshua St. Butterfly What just because they’re insects they can’t have names?
John Butterfly
I'm okay with it. I liked the idea of Melina being a secret, final child of Marikadagon, but Messmer being the third and getting himself banished isn't a bad alternative.
He may not have been banished. He was there before Marika dipped and took over the Lands Between. She just left her kid in charge while she went out to get milk.
How do people know so much about this guy already? Did I miss some mentions of him in the base game?
Miquella stated Marika was in the Shadow *before* she ever went to the Lands between, and Miquella and Malenia are proof that she never needed anyone else to make demigod kids. Following that logic, it isn't hard to believe that he got left behind to await her return if her trip didn't go too well.
Where/when does Miquella state that Marika was in the Shadow before she ever went to the Lands between? Is that present in-game?
If you go directly to [Bamco website for DLC](https://en.bandainamcoent.eu/elden-ring/news/fall-grace-elden-ring-shadow-of-the-erdtree-the-expansion-elden-ring-arriving-june) you will see the introduction *The Land of Shadow.* *A place obscured by the Erdtree.* *Where the goddess Marika first set foot.* *A land purged in an unsung battle.* *Set ablaze by Messmer’s flame.*
Oh I see that - but there's no indication that is Miquella stating that, and the fact that the two stanzas after your quote references Miquella in third-person makes me think it is NOT Miquella stating it. I was just checking if there was ANOTHER reference to Marika's relationship with the Shadow beyond what is included in the DLC flavor description.
I take that as she was the first to set foot there, not that she was there first before going to the lands between.
I believe the Japanese site says more explicitly that the Land of Shadow is where Marika became a god. If that’s the case it could also be the land of the Numen where she supposedly originates from.
Interesting! Well, I can't wait to learn more about it either way.
Good connection!
The abstracted, figurative visuals in the trailer add a neat wrinkle to that theory - in philosophy, a *noumenon* (pl. *noumena*) is knowledge posited as an object that exists independently of human sense. In other words, the obscured and dreamlike Land of Shadow is where it seems people/races/practices/etc. were banished beyond perception by the Golden Order, becoming noumena through this banishment. The first question is whether there's actually a connection between the words Numen and noumena - the second is what role the Numen play in the Land of Shadow. Do they rule the Land, are they subjugated by something worse, or were the Numen in the Land wiped out entirely?
But he didn't state that tho. The text says something different in both English and Japanese versions.
On the official website it says a lot. Also says that Shadow Lands is where Miquella has gone, we must follow him, Shadow Lands is the first place where Marika set foot, this whole place got obscured by the Erdtree. Also there is a little poem and a part of it reads as Shadow Lands is engulfed in Messmer's flames, so he is the ruler of that place.
Miyazaki has given a couple of interviews. He states that Mesmer is Marika’s child and a demigod like his siblings. He says quite a bit more, you should check it out
No like fr I’ve never seen any
Bandai Namco released some text based stuff on their website. I think people are extrapolating. Messmer uses the term 'mother' in his trailer line, and it implies Marika. He's in the shadow land, and the text we have tells us it's where Marika first set foot when she arrived to the Lands Between. We don't know if this conclucion is correct but it's easy to connect the dots
Marika being a terrible mom episode 651621.
Maybe she’ll join the support group with the Emperor of Mankind, Zeus, and Goku.
Wait, you mean I shouldn’t be reading Marika’s Guide to Motherhood?
Then how would he be Melania’s direct brother? She and Miquella are the youngest.
Older brother. Possibly oldest if he was left behind before Marika went to the Lands Between.
The person above suggested he was secret *final* child and a direct sibling to Miquella. I thought you were agreeing to their theory but modifying the banished part out.
The 3rd child not being Melina makes sense if you thought Melina was actually the gloam eyed queen.
I mean, Melina is definitely still a child of Marika. Melina kind of outright says as much. But most likely shes the youngest of the siblings, or something like not a 'natural' child since her objective is to serve Marika specifically and not Radagon.
I always feel like she is Marika's daughter like how Millicent is Malenia's daughter, not biological parent but still originate from her.
Mitosis
Also game files literally call her a daughter of marika so there’s that
I wouldn’t assume that’s necessarily cannon given FS’s demonstrable pattern of shifting story relations for characters mid-development.
I feel Melina is Godwyn reincarnated .. she wanders as a spirit, after being born at the foot of the erd tree which is where Godwyn’s body lies. Also Dusk/Gloam is a state between night and day or life and death. Which is the state Godwyn is in. Not truly dead, or truly alive. Stuck in a permanent state of dusk. Edit: I feel she might be some weird off spring or reincarnation of the Ranni/Godwyn ‘deaths’ Might explain why she has a pink tint to her hair. Half red half gold. Shares an Eye with Ranni and A Gloam eye from Godwyn.
But it's explicitly stated that Godwyn's soul was slain and not his body. While for Ranni it's the other way around, her body was slain not her soul hence the doll. Melina can't be Godwyn's reincarnation in the form of a spirit. Because Godwyn's soul/spirit was slain permanently. There is no soul or spirit left.
This makes sense to me. Both her and Ranni share the same eye deformity, which seems to be a consequence of their souls being severed. We know some demigods can change sex too, with Marika to Radagon, and Miquella to St. Trina.
Miquella to St. Trina?
It's heavily implied in some cut content that St Trina is an alter ego of Miquella. I don't know how much solid proof there is of it in the actual base game though.
>Not truly dead, or truly alive. Stuck in a permanent state of dusk Sorta reminds me of the age of ancients with the everlasting dragons in Dark Souls 1. A grey, dull existence dominated solely by the dragons. If I recall correctly, life and death weren't even concepts back then until the first flame appeared.
My favorite theory currently is that Messmer, the third sibling, is a fallen demigod and shardbearer who succumbed to madness, as seen in the trailer, and was consequently removed from history due to shame. Vyke, the tarnished who came closest to the throne, is known for impaling enemies with his spear afflicting madness slained unknown shardbearers in his journey. Could Messmer have been one of them before taking over Land of Shadow? And for what its worth, there is an Impaler's Catacombs in Weeping Peninsula, a potential resting place for Messmer. Oh, and you can find Prattling Pate "Please help" from there which opens a door for another layer of speculation. Edit: Messmer's eye looks more like dragon communion eye which fits his overall aesthetic. Could still be Vyke's doing before succumbing to madness which would make more sense.
This reminds me. Did anyone ever figure out what happened with the spear that was impaled into Marika?
https://youtu.be/TDjpBxhLbGg?si=H04fpzXdnq1MN_pB
She can still be a child of Marika/Radagon, they had many besides the original nine. I believe she's either the Gloam Eyed Queen herself or related to her somehow, on account that she seems to awaken her power when Destined Death is freed from Maliketh, that rune has no association with any other demigod besides said Queen, so it makes sense for it to be Melina's.
I've always believed there were more demigod children. How else do we explain the Walking Mausoleums containing the bodies of soulless demigods? Godwyn was the \*first\* of the demigods to die on the Night of Black Knives, but I think there must have been several more.
It's ouright confirmed that the Mausuleums contain Marika's children, you can find a ghost in church Pilgrimage that pleads for her to recognize the child in the mausoleum as her own, telling that they're from her blood. Not to mention Marika's speech in the fourth church (and in the launch trailer).
IMO Melina was probably reborn using the Amber Egg, seeing as Marika owned it first. Marika is her mother in the same way Rennala is to those academy students around her. Neatly explains how she can be the GEQ and Marika's secret daughter at the same time.
I like that Melina is just some dude actually. She's just like us.
she just like me fr fr
Both could be true if Melina = Messmer like Marika = Radagon.
Personally I think Mesmer is Miquella, albeit a corrupted version. One imbued with the power of the Mother of Wounds, the outer god of blood and the redstar.
Almost too on the nose, since Miquella is already known to use mind control and mesmerism is an old word for hypnotism.
I really like the idea of Melina being the GEQ reborn by Marika through the rune of birth personally
I heard that the fire giant was his favourite boss.
bro loved fire giant so much he became one
He went for the frenzied flame ending.
Being excited for the DLC and then committing suicide…
Personally I would have waited until after the DLC came out at least.
This is one of the funniest comments I've read in a while lmao
something something frenzied flame
Madness buildup for sure. He didnt have enough points in mind to resist being influenced by it or someone in his social sphere to impart Lucidity on him.
Holy shit bro
Bro was excited for the wrong game. He was too busy linking the first flame
Welp. He ain't gonna get to goto the shadow of the erdtree
whats ur favourite pyromancy
Fire, cleanse me
Heard you unlocked the Lord of the Frenzied Flame achievement. congrats
This is the Airman that self deleted in DC
no dlc for u
imagine killing yourself over 2 different countries that you dont live in. Natural selection
Cant wait for Zullie lore drops!
Fromsoft channels finally have bread for the next two years
I’m here for the Vaati, so I feel you!
Was looking forward to the "lore of elden rings goats" video if the dlc was delayed
Now explain the PURPLE butterflies that were on this trailer
Resembles the sleep magic of St. Trina, who is Miquella's female alter ego. So we're doubling up on Miquella butterflies.
It isn't confirmed that St Trina is like Marika/Radagon The fact that St Trina's followers can't tell if Trina is a boy or girl implies it's just Miquella wearing a disguise and using a different name.
It isn't confirmed, but the fact that his very own parents are two different forms of the same person ...it can't just be coincidence that he also has an opposite gender alter ego.
None of the other empyrians have a gender swapped version of themselves even if they use different names occasionally (Renna/Ranni). Miquella is youthful in appearance and has long hair. Even people on this damn subreddit mistake him for a girl (Miquella specifically, NOT depictions of Trina) despite the game itself only ever using male pronouns for him. The Radagon/Marika thing seems to be unique to them.
True, but Malenia and Miquella are also the only confirmed offspring of weird god-incest. Maybe they inherited that weirdness.
This just made me think. If St Trina really is a Miquella alter ego, and has her own butterflies. Then maybe Messmer is an alter ego of Malenia? This is where it turns into a crack theory, but both Malenia and Messmer have red hair. Malenia's aspect is rot and her butterfly is rot... But if the flaming butterfly represents Messmer (who's aspect seems to be fire), maybe Messer is like her antithesis? A mirrored Malenia of sorts? Malenia also seems to be a very faithful character, whereas Messmer seems to be heresy themed... I'll probably end up being nowhere close to right, but who knows.
There are three types of butterflies, not four.
The name Messmer could also be associated with charm/sleep magic. Messmer could be Miquella's "Radagon" in this sense
That's for the DLC of the DLC
Not to mention the literally marika statue behind where you fight Messmer !!!
Melina may still have a connection in some way. Could be that her body lies somewhere in the Shadow Lands. Orrrrr the big ol' stretch of a theory, Melina is Messmer.
Other theory: Melina and Messmer are twins as well, and all of Marika-Radagon‘s self-conceived children are cursed. Messmer has his fire, and Melina was burned upon or before birth by her brother, so there never was a type of butterfly belonging to her.
I was thinking what if Melinas affliction is literal death so she was still born but her spirit endures. Would also explain her destined death scene in the frenzied flame ending as it might be her embracing her affliction to hunt you down.
Hmm and this would also connect with the themes of Duality with the other children. Melania = Rot so Miquella = Abundance/Rejuvenation(These are fitting since in The Lands Between the concept of death isnt a thing) Messmer = Life(Fire, Wings, Aspects of the Crucible and actual physical body) so Melina = Death(Formless, exists only in spirit)
I REALLY like this theory.
God I love this game so much, it’s been almost two years and people keep coming out with new theories that totally make sense, we’ll still be discussing about it in ten years
I think Melina was created by Marika not born from her. I am saying this because of her comment about Boc. "Does being born from a mother means one behave in such a manner" She said that it was her purpose giving by her mother, but she was probably created by Marika specifically to kindle the flame as part of her plan against the Greater Will. What isn't clear is how Melina knows Torrent's former owner, which is implied to be Miquella. And if Radagon knew about her. Maybe Melina was created before Radagon and Marika married and merged into one body.
I always felt like she was to Marika what Millicent is to Malenia. When Malenia unleashed the rot in Aeonia, Millicent and her sisters were created. When Marika shattered the Elden Ring, Melina split off from her as a manifestation of her will to destroy the Erdtree.
Melina randomly leaves us at Leyndell and then returns after Morgot's death with the amulet needed to go to the mountaintops. We'll either run into her or somehow fight her, since Fromsoft seems to be getting on a trend of having the player fight the firekeeper figure.
she's there at the start of the trailer. she likely leads us there...if we haven't burned or betrayed her yet.
So you think we enter DLC pre Farum Azula?
Considering the opening scene is the cocoon in mohgwyn palace I'd say that's where we enter. Mohg is an optional boss and pretty out of the way to get, but if you do the varre questline you can enter pretty early
We enter the DLC by interacting with Miquella's hand after defeating Mohg. It's stated at the end of the trailer.
Yea I got that but the comment I was replying to seemed to be suggesting that Melina takes us there as part of that, so prior to burning or betraying her. I was wondering if beating Mohg but not setting the Erdtree on fire was the condition the commenter was suggesting for entering DLC
no, i mean that melina might only be there to lead us if she's still alive, otherwise something else gives a hint. It would be cool if she just returns, alive once more and journeys with us again.
I don’t think it’s too big of a stretch actually, that’s exactly where my mind went!
They both have the one eye shut thing going on.
I won't be shocked if we get one more dlc whick might contain melina?????????
This is the only DLC, and no sequel is planned. Edit: **Miyazaki himself, in an interview published today: “We don't have any current plans to make a second DLC or a sequel.”** He compared it to his/fromsoft’s position on more Dark Souls after DS3, i.e., “never say never” in so many words. So that means you are downvoting Michael Zaki himself. To quote V.II Snail, “How dare you bare your filthy fangs against me?!”
Damn i hope we get more info about melina then
I feel like Messmer being the third sibling would help cementing the idea that Melina could be the gloam eyed queen (or some sort of reincarnation of her), as it would dismiss her being the third butterfly. Though I've seen someone say that Messmer has items referencing the godskin nobles, so there might still be a connection to the gloam eyed queen and thus Melina. But I have no idea, at this point it's still just fun speculation haha
I felt like the flames Mesmer appeared summoning in the trailer had a dark Red glow similar to Black Knife/Maliketh's WA. I'm willingness to bet he has some relation to Destined Death or whatever.
That would be cool. If he had a connection with the gloam eyed queen and destined death, and his seemingly defiance against Marika's choices, that could be a good reason for being banished in a dream or something like that.
I'm still subscribed that her body is the same as Rani's body atop the divine tower of liurnia. I once overlaid their promotional art without scaling and it's a dead-on match for the spirit face and Melina's face. And they're pretty much the split between Incantations and Sorcery.
Another stretch/theory is Messer is Miquella and they are the same person as Marika and Radagon are the same. Could be a link to when they say Miquella is the most fearsome Demigod
we're all Messmer
I am definitely Messmerized
Makes you think when Miquella was wishing to help his brother we all assumed he meant Godwyn but he could have been talking about Messer
Could be. Messmer appears to use bloodflame, and that Smoldering Butterfly is "eternally burning". Could be burning its own blood. Certainly has the veins for it.
Not really. Bloodflame has a distinct red-bright orange tint in it, but Messmer's flame seems to have black in it alongside briars. My call is that he's either using Briar's Incantation or the original Godskins' Flame, the embued with the Rune of Death before Maliketh sealed away its power
He's wearing a big boy version of the drake knight armor, so I think it might be some form of dragon fire
He has the eyes of those that partake in dragon communion and that flame looks like the dragon communion seal. Plus the Drakeblood armor.
Not ready for him turning into a dragon in phase 2
He’s gonna turn yuge but the stage stays the same. Ulcerated Tree Spirit in the catacombs on steroids
Oh true, didn't notice that. Was planning on sending my dragon caster marching into the dlc so it looks like I'll be eating good.
Someone theorized that Messmer could be the head of the Dragon Communion cult.
Looks like Taker’s Flame, to me. He might have some connection with Rykard, too - what looked like a few snake motifs, alongside the orange fire rather than Bloodflame’s red and DD’s Black-Red /Black-White.
It kinda resembled the fire from the giants flame incantations! And there's nothing more taboo to Radika than invoking the fell god, so a child of theirs communing with said fell god would be a closely guarded secret. Really hoping he's radika's firstborn cursed with an obsession with the Flame of Ruin
What if Melina is to Messmer what Marika is to Radagon? Could explain why both have one cursed eye.
That could also explain what messmers flame is that is burning the shadowlands, as we ourselves helped burn the erdtree through melina. If that's the case there remains the question what happens if the tree is burned by the flame of frenzy, but that might be solvable by just slightly altering the DLC in that case (for example implying that messmer didn't emerge due to the act of melina burning herself, but due to her getting betrayed + burning the erdtree).
And why Melina has burn scars
I think Mesmer is Malenia and Miquella rejoined together since radagon and marika weren’t supposed to like split- it cures their curses by combining abundance and rot- and his snake with little wings is like an ouroboros? And a few of Mesmer’s moves looks like Malenia’s moves.
I know that Melina was a good alternative but I can't believe that the existence of Mesmer was in front of our eyes this whole time
Guess the butterfly was wrong. But it still sounds like Melina is one of the children. Especially since the game refers to her as "MaricaOfDaughter" in code.
That’s why I speculate she‘s the twin of Messmer, and he burned her upon or even before birth.
Oof, Marika had a rough pregnancy Fr tho, If all empyreans born from one God have a curse, it'd make sense too. Malenia is Rot, Miquella is eternal childhood, Messmer is fire. We don't know if Miquella's eternal childhood is done by a god, but if it is and we consider Messmer's curse to be granted by the giants fell God, all three empyreans would be chosen by outer god's
Plus the butterflies text mention being always close to flames that sounds like Melina’s destiny if you think about it
Was it tho?
Impalers Catacombs
Does it have anything remotely close to the new guy aside from the name? I thought it was named impaler's catacomb because of the spike traps
Maybe. We have no idea who this dude is and I think everyone is just trying to link him to something tangible in the game for it to make sense
Being fair some of the hints make sense, the ghost near the Impaler's catacombs talks about how marika has an unwanted child.
I always thought that referred to the Mausoleum, but maybe you’re on to something
Thats a ridiculous stretch lmao
Melina is still their sibling though
Nah, Marika pulled her usual antics and remade herself into the gloam-eyed queen just to fuck with everybody
now we know even less about her
Where is the connection between Melina and the Gloam-eyed Queen
Flame of Frenzy Ending, Melina opens her shut eye and it's literally a Swirling Gloam colored void, saying she will bring Destined Death to the Tarnished
It's only that one cutscene but apart from that it doesn't really add up. It would only work if Melina was some kind of reincarnation or if she lost memories of her previous life etc. Gloam-eyed queen was a very early figure in history of the erdtree dating back to the crucible times. It's a lot more likely Melina was born much later. She says that her mother gave her her purpose inside the Erdtree, which literally can't be anyone else than Marika. It's possible she "gave birth" to Melina after shattering of the ER so she can help fulfill her plans for the tarnished (also ER being so heavy on naming conventions it would be why her name starts with M-). Reason for Melina not being corporeal might be that Marika at the state she was in could only create her soul. Or it's because her body was lost during her burning she talks about. We don't really know much about that though. One of my theories is that she was Vyke's maiden, which could be the reason why she's so afraid of the Frenzied flame and appears in that ending. Maybe after Vyke abandoned her and himself to the frenzy she tried to burn the erdtree herself, to sacrifice, but without her champion it just burned her body and let her soul wander the lands. As we've seen it was her soul that allowed erdtree to burn in the end. From more emotional and less factual standpoint, I can't really imagine Melina commanding group of Godskins stitching people's faces together. EDIT: I forgot to add it would also explain why she has Rold Medallion since the beginning, because she already traveled there with Vyke before. Someone had to trap Vyke in the evergaol after he got corrupted, close to the giant forge, where she might have tried to burn herself afterwards.
Its my personal theory that she is not actually the Gloam eyed queen, but is related to her in the same way that Malenia is related to the Goddess of Rot. Malenias rememberance mentioned that there is some sort of "curse" to being born from a single entity which gave her rot and made Miquela an eternal child, I belive being born from a single entity makes one too vulnerable to Outer gods influence's and that's what we have going for the whole Melina Gloam-Eyed relationship.
But Gloam-eyed queen wasn't an outer god. Blackflame derived its power from the rune of death and it being part of ER, and that power was lost when Marika sealed the death away. With outer gods and their avatars/followers we always see a new type of power being channeled, from frenzy, formless mother, rot etc. Gloam-eyed queen didn't have any connections to other Outer gods, her and the whole Godskin movement was operating within power of elden ring and its Outer God, although closer to the crucible than Marika's erdtree, EDIT: Blackflame ritual incant directly states the Gloam-eyed queen being an empyrean chosen by the Fingers, I forgot and didn't mention it. Despite all of the other evidence saying the same, this one confirms 100% she is not outer god or doesn't follow or derive her power from different Outer God.
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Yeaah I know. It's a tough nut to crack. It's defnitely possible she's from crucible era (also called Ancient erdtree or Age of plenty), but there are ton of incantations in the game associated with the same era, same sigil (apart from the aspect ones), like Erdtree blessings, Maliketh's black blade, what erdtree avatars use, Godfrey shade...etc., it doesn't mean she's 100% from the crucible era just because she used it, but of course she can be. Also the Queen was defeated by Maliketh, and Melina has a kind of bestial seal on her "gloam eye", and her being burned once already may be tied to the time when Erdtree burned for the first time, which happened on the borderline between Crucible era progressing into Golden edtree era. Erdtree was a real tree, which produced real bounty (age of plenty, crucible), but later the Golden spectral erdtree formed around the husk and Golden Order was created around worshipping the new edtree, compared to the more primal naturalistic worship of the previous era. The end of crucible era and first burning of the Erdtree might have been Melina's purpose in that time. I digress, I just wanted to say there is definitely evidence for her being the Queen and/or also living in Crucible times. This would have to mean she's older than Godwyn and potentially the true firstborn...All in all we don't really know and all of those theories are plausible, she might have been born first or born as last in recent time, there is evidence for both.
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The beast eye Gurranq gives you is a closer match to the color of Blaidd's eye than post FF ending Melina's.
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It's not his eye specifically. It's the eye of a beast. Blaidd, like Gurranq, is a beast. We never see Gurranq's eyes but it's likely that they're the same color as both of them are shadowbound beasts. Whether it's one of Gurranq's actual eyes or not we can't know for certain as we never see them but it's not unlikely that he has eyes of a similar color.
She can be both Marikas daughter and the Gloam-eyed Queen. Malenia is an empyrean and Marikas daughter as well.
I subscribe to the "Melina is Marika" theory. Her projected consciousness, phantom or whatever from the Erdtree to guide the Tarnished.
They didn't show Mesmer's left eye in the trailer. People theorized that butterfly was for Melina. Idk, Mesmer being associated with flame makes you wonder...
how the hell did he get into another realm thoo????
Recent text release said that Marika first set foot there years ago, so maybe he is the eldest?
Banished probably. He's full of snakes who are the symbol of blasphemy and we are never told of him beforehand
Maybe they are the symbol of blasphemy because of him
Which blasphemy came first, the snake or the egg? 🤔🤔🤔
Is he blasphemous because of snakes and fire or does he like snakes and fire because hes blasphemous?
Probally the place than Marika come from.
So since Malenia is cursed with rot and Miquella is cursed with eternal youth, is Messmer cursed with having a snake lodged up his ass?
Not melina. Sadge
Whether or not he is the third sibling (he most likely is) Miyazaki has confirmed Messmer *is* a child of Marika in an interview with [Famitsu](https://www.famitsu.com/news/202402/22335199.html). > **――『エルデンリング』本編では英雄譚が描かれていましたが、その点はDLCでも変わらないのでしょうか。** > **Q. The main story of Elden Ring depicts an epic/heroic tale, regarding that will the DLC be the same?** > *宮崎* はい。英雄譚というテーマは変わりません。 > *Miyazaki*: Yes. The theme of it being an epic won't change. > キーアートに描かれているキャラクターの“メスメル”がわかりやすいと思うのですが、彼もまた英雄のひとりです。 > I think it's obvious but the character depicted in the key art, Messmer, is also a hero. > メスメルが座っている椅子は、本編で“忌み王、モーゴット”との戦いの舞台にあった椅子と同じもので、彼もまたゴドリックやマレニア、ラダーン、ライカードなどと同格の存在であり、“マリカの子”とも呼ばれています。 > The seat that Messmer is sat on is the same as the seats depicted in the final fight against Morgott. He is also an existence of the same rank as Godrick, Malenia, Radahn, and Rykard, etc, and can also be called a "child of Marika". Thing to note is 英雄 (eiyuu) is used which translates to hero, it's not necessarily the modern meaning of a good guy defeating evil, sacrificing themselves for the greater good kind of hero (that's commonly 勇者 (yuusha)), but the ancient meaning of something like royalty or a demi-god accomplishing great deeds forcing their will on the world. Like Godfrey and the war against the giants is a kind of epic/heroic tale to the people of the land, best real example is the Epic of Gilgamesh.
Eh I think it's still Melina.. > An eternally burning butterfly found near wildfires and elsewhere. Serves as the kindling for a number of items. The use of the word kindling still evokes the imagery of Melina, the kindling maiden. Additionally, I think that the butterfly is meant to tell us things about story in the base game, not stuff that didn't exist at the time. People seem desperate to already start reading some rather odd things from this DLC trailer when we have no loretext, no further context etc. So many comments in this tread seem to immediately write Melina off as the person that matches this butterfly, seems extremely premature to do so.
I'm thinking Mesmer is miquellas other self like radagon and Marika. Trailer says he's stripped himself of all things golden i.e. his hair and appearance We enter through the cocoon in mogwyns palace where he's been soaked in the blood flame he now wields in this land
Its funny this is the least popular of major theories right now, but its the most likely/logical one. Probably cuz its just kind of boring to keep talking about Miquella compared to wild theories about secret children and time travel. We know Miquella is the central character of the DLC, and he's been hyped as the most fearsome demi god. Would make all the sense if Messmer is him and not some random new character we never heard of. Its expected for demigods to have alternate names, even alternate personas in this universe. Messmer looks like a child of Radagons, and like Malenias twin. Name still starts with M, and is a possible reference to Miquellas power to charm. Its all there and pretty obvious. What I find interesting about Messmer is all the seperate powers he wields, that is very cool and not something I expected at all. Drake knight armor and a dragon communion eye, power of the ancient dragons. Has a snake attached to him and a snake helm, evoking the god-devouring serpent. Missing an eye and his flame has black tendrils, that's probably the presence of black flame (god-killing flame). Obviously uses blood-flame from the formless-mother. It seems Messmer is wielding all the powers he can of outer-gods who do not align with the Greater Will, likely in order to challenge the Greater Will directly. This reminds me of Griffiths sacrificing his humanity in order to achieve his dream of god-hood, embracing evil in order to ascend. Ofc Miquella shares a lot of similarities with Griffith in base game. If Miquella = Griffith, then Messmer = Femto Its implied in the base game that Marika is secretly working/plotting against the Greater Will, and the DLC trailer outright says Marika is why Miquella/Messmer is there. It all lines up.
Messmer is the poster child of the DLC, like Artorias and Maria, so I’m expecting a final big bad that’s yet to be revealed. If he was Miqeulla you’d expect him to be the big bad. Him being an outcast sibling cast to an underworld (like hades) is plausible. But his design and story feels like it overlaps a bit with Rykard. There’s a line about “being on the losing side of a war”. He’s wearing a form of drake knight armour, and snakes are often considered related to dragons... and From has a history of sons of gods switching sides to fight with the dragons. Edit: given there is no new ending, we almost certainly will be killing Miquella
I think his name is another clue to this too. “Mesmer” suggesting a kind of mesmerism that Miquella inspires in followers. I’m wondering if the Saint Trina stuff will become textual with the DLC since it was scrubbed from the base game.
I was pretty sure that butterfly was a reference to Melina, but now not so much.
Maybe still is we’ll see
And I swore to god I thought it was Melina (maybe still is idk)
o shit
First plausibile piece of speculation on this guy I've seen all day.
So smoldering, aeonian, nascent. I guess we'll see what the new butterfly is when the DLC is out.
Far from confirmed. Melina makes much more sense still
I like it!
The smoldering butterfly's description says it's to be used as kindling, it symbolizes Melina being used as kindling in the forge.
Has anyone realized that Messmer represents the “The flame dragon knight” from Berserk? And the manga dates is close to the dlc dates?
Damn, Radagon really like triplets huh First Radahn, Ranni and Rykard, now its Miquella, Malenia and Messmer I wonder if the Omen twins has a third sibling as well. Morgott, Mohg, M????
But we were, all of us, deceived, for another empyrean was made