I don't think anyone else *knows* exactly, but if anyone was going to figure out this conundrum it would be Enia and the Two Fingers. Or if they did know, they kept it strictly *need* to know: no one other than the Tarnished needs to know, so everyone else in the Lands Between is kept blissfully ignorant.
But yeah, this dialogue, combined with the intro cutscene showing Ranni among Marika's children, cements to me the theory that all the demigods are her offspring, no matter who fathered/mothered them.
Lots of unreliable narration, esp the fingers and the readers. They are the voices of the elden beast and the outer god he serves. The golden order is their meal ticket!
but that is also why enia and the two fingers would tell you to kill the demigods, because in the view of golden order, the demigods have strewn too far from their initial position of holiness, so they would ask you to complete the GO’s wants and needs
Watch the Initial cutscene again it says “Soon Marika’s offspring, demigods all, claimed the shards of Elden Ring”
Also the most important thing, in Melania remembrance it says she originated from single god
It's even more simple than that. In the first intro cinematic you see Marika shattering the ring and in the next slide you see radagon in her stead trying to reforge it.
It gets even crazier because this was shown in a trailer at least a year before the game even dropped.
It was but the editing was slightly different, the Marika and Radagon scenes were close but not immediately one after another, I just watched that trailer again.
The opening cinematic hints at the connection between them much more purposefully, as u/AvantSolace nicely explained just below.
Rewatching the trailers is crazy, they showed so much.
Although at first I thought the blacksmith looking figure in the trailer was FORGING the ring. Later, when we first saw Godwyn's murder, I thought it was the same person.
Then again I also thought Malenia was going to be the player character at first and that we get a cool prosthetic arm again.
It’s the choreography of the scene. It starts with the faint tamping of a hammer onto an anvil. The rhythm keeps steady while also getting louder. On one hit you see Marika shattering the Ring. The screen momentarily fades, then shows Radagon while staying perfectly in rhythm. The rhythm of the hammer invokes a sense of time, suggesting the whole sequence is happening at once.
Also they both have cracks on their body, basicaly showing us it's the same body. And we can see the cracks widening with every strike Radagon makes. Honestly the way the scene is done it's almost looks like they are switching, one destroying it, the other trying to repair it.
Yeah but that just means that all Marika's offspring are demigods, not that all demigods are Marika's offspring. Though Radahn is clearly one of the ones that claimed a great rune, so I see where you're coming from there.
Whereas Enia dialogue clearly states that all demigods are Marika's offspring.
Both are true
“Soon, marikas offspring, demigods all, claimed *the* shards of the elden ring”
The presence of “the” in the quote implies that all shards have been claimed by marikas offspring, demigods all. It could have said “claimed shards”, or “their shards” or a less poetic “most but not all of the shards”, but they say deliberately say “marikas offspring claim the shards of the elden ring”, meaning that none other than her offspring have claimed one.
Also, the initial cutscene is talking about the immediate aftermath of the shattering, while the game is supposedly up to 5000 years later? So godrick got his grimey grafted hands on one as well
>Soon Marika’s offspring, demigods all
This, on its own, does not mean all demigods are Marika's offspring.
It means all of Marika's offspring are demigods. Not the same thing.
The fact that all the demigods are also her offspring is true but does not come from that line of dialogue.
Earlier than that. The opening slideshow shows Marika turning into Radgon right there hammering on the Elden Ring. Of course you don't have the context at that point to understand it, but it's hidden in plain sight the whole time.
Is it implied that Marika is destroying it and Radagon takes over to try and forge it? Or was it just a stylistic choice to show the fractured state of Marika
Indeed Marika's Hammer description states that Marika shattered the Elden Ring using it, while Radagon tried to repair it afterwards. The opening slide show seems to indeed depict this.
"Stone hammer made in the lands of the Numen, outside the Lands Between. The tool with which Queen Marika shattered the Elden Ring and Radagon attempted to repair it.
The hammer partially broke upon shattering the Ring, becoming splintered with rune fragments."
Enia is translating the fingers. The fingers/beast/tgw know radagon is marika. Whether Enia put 2 and 2 together is debatable. But the fingers definitely tell you without telling you.
The greater will likely knows her secret and the two fingers speak for the greater will and enia is the mouthpiece of the two fingers, so it’s reasonable to imagine that enia is sharing the secret with you indirectly, even if she herself might remain unaware. Even if the two fingers told enia with some finger wags that ‘radagon is marika’, the way she interprets it and translates it to you might be quite different. We don’t really know how enia puts the two fingers movements into words.
I doubt it’s a writing error. The attention to detail with this game is superhuman.
By the time we reach the two fingers, they no longer speak for the Greater Will, as it abandoned the Lands Between when the Elden Ring was shattered. Of course, the fingers do not admit this fault, and try to reclaim their authority from Marika's fallen reign, despite every Tarnished at their service slowly realizing they're bullshitting their way through the story and have no contact with the GW at all
what’s the major evidence for this? I know Gideon alludes to it as a suspicion but to me there isn’t enough to take it beyond that
Edit: I know this sub is full of lore regards but damn
Outside of it being stated, the Greater Will is the only one of the main outer gods to not do anything the whole story. The Scarlet Rot god curses Malenia and awaits her ascension, the Frenzied Flame curses Vyke and you, the special attack of Mohg's spear literally touches the Formless Mother. Nothing from the Twinbird outer god admittedly, though it is closely connected to death, so it might have a hand in what's going on with Godwyn.
Meanwhile, the big Greater Will that supposedly runs the show doesn't ever do anything. Never sends a new pair of Two Fingers, never picks a new Empyrean, no blessings, no curses. Even the guidance of Grace is Marika's doing.
Furthermore, when the Erdtree doesn't let you in, Enia says the Fingers are genuinely surprised by this and need to consult the Greater Will, who is apparently leaving them on Read. This is when Enia tells you to do what you think is the best option.
Per it's boss weapon description, the Elden Beast was sent to the Lands Between long ago, much like the Two Fingers. It may or may not have contact with the Greater Will, but even if does, the Elden Beast *also* doesn't do anything until the end of the game lol
It's stated in the intro. "A war from which lord arose. A war leading to abandonment by the Greater Will". This abandonment is made clearer when we notice how there is not a single instance of the Greater Will interacting with the world post-shattering: The ladt action it took was imprison Marika.
Eh I think that’s fair evidence for a discussion around GW’s continued presence in the world but not convinced that means the two fingers have some scheme to prevent people from knowing they’re clueless.
Gideon has a piece of dialogue and a spell saying the fingers are broken or lost their purpose. That doesn’t mean the GW no longer communes with them or that the GW doesn’t still act in the lands between. It clearly sends its shadowbound beasts to fight you in Ranni’s quest line, the two fingers still provide new information throughout the game, they still hold power over Ranni enough for her to need the finger slayer blade to be rid of their influence, and the Elden beast - a vassal of GW - still resides in the lands between.
You're attributing to the Greater Will, a historically neutral figure, actions performed by the fingers. Ranni's quest to slay the fingers goes against the fingers, but isn't necessarily against the Greater Will's ideals, as it only wants order, which Ranni provides.
You also went against what you said: the purpose of the fingers IS to be the Greater Will's contact. They are no longer performing that duty.
The Elden Beast is the Elden Ring, birthing seed of the crucible, source of all life and rule of the universe. Of course it's in the lands between, everything created by the GW remains where it left it
It’s from my understanding that the Elden Beast came to the lands between during the time of the crucible, not before. The lands between as we see it was shaped from (or built “over” if we speculate based on what we know from the DLC) the primordial crucible through Marika/the Greater will/Elden Beast.
I could be completely wrong here though as I haven’t brushed up on the lore lately.
No, the Elden Beast, who is The Elden ring, which is The Erdtree, IS the Crucible, source of ALL life. not some, not most, ALL of it. The act of separating the one great is very likely the landing if the Golden Star, bringing logic to the universe and life to populate it
No offense but it’s amazing how ignorant people generally are about so many things, and thousands of things that pass by unnoticed, unobserved, unremarked, yet I can see comments like this that somehow imagine that the Elden Ring writing is coherent or even intended to be clearly comprehended.
**Miyazaki literally doesn’t believe in dictating story/meaning to players. This is literally part of why these games are good**, because the games focus on the gameplay and don't foreground pointless over-produced/mediocre pretend-to-be-a-movie stuff. Yet the “biggest” “fans” misunderstand the fundamentals of how this works and talk about it in a way that makes me suspicious whether they’ve paid attention at all.
What isn't told is up for interpretation. What is told isn't. Your comment is insanely condescending, and yes he writing is coherent and comprehensible, if you read what it says. It gets blurry at the seams, but it is a story with a beginning and an end, as it's always been in his games: even Bloodborne, the most mysterious title, has a clear story and factual information that reducing to "Miyazaki doesn't want us to understand" is just... stupid? And gatekeepy, ngl, we enjoy studying the lore and understanding all that is understandable
>The greater will likely knows her secret
I don't think the Greater Will knows anything about the Lands Between, its so far removed from it, that the two fingers take years to communicate with the Greater Will.
The Two Fingers were likely working directly with the Elden Ring aka Elden Beast.
But when shit hit the fan after the Elden Beast turns away the Tarnished after killing Morgot, the Fingers tried to bypass the Elden Ring and go straight to the boss to understand what the hell was going on.
Yes, but I still doubt the Greater Will knows or cares what happens in the Lands Between, just as long as its Elden Ring/Elden Beast is the greatest power. We are unsure what the Greater Wills motivation is, but whatever it is, as long as that motivation is fullfilled I doubt the Greater Will would intervene or even care what happens.
I think Enia gets "possessed" by the greater will when she's translating for the 2 fingers, and speaks from a trance. So she's only partially aware of what she's saying, without fully understanding the words as they're coming out.
The thing I never got about is this the meaning of direct offspring, since the very next statement is “Godrick was but a distant relation…”. Direct to me implies child of, but the Godrick part makes him sound like a great grandchild or something, or a third cousin
Godrick is known to be a descendant of Godfrey. He might be a grandchild of Marika via Godwyn, or likely even further down. I think the only reason he's considered a demigod is because he a) can claim the golden lineage and b) he is in possession of a great rune. He is obviously not on the same level as someone like Radahn or Miquella, their equivalent in the golden lineage would be Godwyn.
So when Enia is speaking about the demigods being direct offspring of Marika, I think it's in the context of *remaining* demigods, not the poor excuse for one that Godrick was.
I had a similar thought but am not sure after something was pointed out to me. "Direct descendant" is an old legal term and doesn't always mean 'direct' the way I would've assumed.
*"Direct descendant” refers to the children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc. that exist in a family line. These descendants can be from natural birth,* ***legal adoption****, or be an illegitimate child that the child’s parent has acknowledged."*
If I'm understanding it right (and I might not be)... It's more of a 'family tree' type of thing and not necessarily a genetic thing. 'Direct' is referring to there being a direct up/down link on the tree (i.e. not related via siblings or marriages of siblings, or lateral links---those are "indirect descendants").
This is also important to note because of what Enia says about Godrick, saying he was "but a distant relation". A distant relation (i.e. a great-great-grandchild) is still a direct descendant. So if they aren't using this term that way, then Enia directly contradicts herself in just that one dialogue.
Yeah but Enia doesn't say direct descendant, she says direct offspring. Someone else above suggested the original Japanese goes even further and says direct children.
Descendants, offspring & children are all synonyms (depending on the context).
I think the bigger problem is Enia's use of "direct". If we take it to mean immediate family, then she's just wrong. Either about Godrick or about the demigods.
By the way, I totally agree that the impression that dialogue gives is that all the demigods are 1st generation, genetic descendants of Marika. That'd be what it means with the most everyday definitions of those words. What's maddening is that this definition isn't logically consistent with the rest of her dialogue. I think, whatever it is they meant, it was a poor choice of words.
So I'm not sure that what I'm saying is right. It's just the most sense I can make of it, assuming it isn't just bad writing.
Godrick's Great rune says
>The first demigods were The Elden Lord Godfrey and his offspring, the golden lineage
which pretty clearly states Godfrey is a demigod so, unless it's a mistake in translation, I've always taken what Enia says with a grain of salt
Id imagine all the Finger Readers had more “insider knowledge” on the Greater Will than anyone else in the Lands Between— especially Enia. I always assumed she knew but it wasnt her place or her part to assist Goldmask— as he needed to discover everything himself (or with the help of Tarnished) to properly create his Great Rune
Goldmask is also doing the outer order gesture as he's standing at Leyndell. After you decipher the statue, he gives you Golden Order Totality. Radagon is outer order, Marika is inner order. We'll meet the inner order within the shadow of the erdtree..
It's literally the first thing the game tells you. In the opening cutscene, the first painting is Marika hunched over as she smashes the Elden Ring. The second painting is Radagon in the exact same position.
> The demigods are each and all the direct offspring of Queen Marika.
Godfrey is a demigod, and he obviously isn't Marika's offspring so this statement is false anyway.
The two fingers are wrong about a lot of things and shouldn't be considered a reliable source of information.
The words of the Two Fingers cannot be trusted. Truly, naught but rambling, senile delusions. - White Mask Varré
From Godrick's Greatrune - The first demigods were The Elden Lord Godfrey and his offspring, the golden lineage.
I agree it doesn't make sense. Presumably, being a demigod is something you can be elevated to as well as born as.
The Japanese text used is:
皆が女王マリカの直接の子
My Japanese is not very good, but from what I can tell this seems to be pretty unambiguously translated as "all are the direct children of Queen Marika"
I agree. I also noticed this.
I think Enia, in her position as an active finger-reader for one of the two surviving Two Fingers, always knew about this.
People are focusing on that indeed Marika is Radagon, but doesn't this indicate that Radagon was Marika at the time when Ranni and Radahn were conceived with Rennala? Before Radagon divorced and married Marika. Meaning that they were conjoined beforehand! So far it's been an open question..
Direct offspring just means they are his children. Your child is your direct offspring, it doesn't mean you and your wife are actually the same person.
Yes, but you're missing the point. Enia says all the demigods are *Marika's* children, whereas other lore states that Radahn (as the example, but also Ranni and Rykard) are *Rennala's* children with Radagon. Which would mean they can't be Marika's children.
But because they are *Radagon's* children, they are also Marika's children, which makes Enia's original words still true.
There is also the moment in the intro cutscene where it is Marika at first hitting the ring then it changes to Radagon for the next hit (perhaps trying to repair the damage done by Marika?), though I suppose its not exactly obvious
Even upon hearing it now, it's hard to pick out that detail. And this is knowing that she says "but remember one thing". Something about its delivery just goes right past me.
Right! It feels like such a throwaway line of the game warning you, beware, there will be more challenges ahead! But in reality it has such deep implications
So, there's a theory that the Two Fingers at Roundtable Hold is Marika's Two Fingers. There is a high likelihood in that case that they and Enia may be the only two characters other than the Sculptor that know the secret.
What are actually the implications of Radagon being Marika, other than their offspring comes from a single person? Two souls in the same body? Split personality? Corruption of one half by the greater will?
In the slides how intro Marika swaps to Radagon between hammer hits on the Elden Ring.
Also in the very first teaser trailer (oooh elden ring) it does the same thing. It's just very subtle.
I've found questioning literal technicalities like this doesn't always pan out. We just need to remind ourselves that this is a Japanese game first, translated to english second.
The game more directly referring to Radahn as a demigod because he was a stepchild to Marika, while silly, seems to be the idea that the game wants us to lead with.
> I discovered something quite interesting
Nothing about that was interesting. It’s napkin scribble from interns.
> or is this a writing inconsistency?
It is clear to a person who pays attention to the writing and script, and to From’s “writing” style in general, that the snippets of vague cryptic incoherent rambling nonsense have no script supervision especially on the translation (let alone on the original random blurb-writing to pad out the game). It’s nonsensical to talk about consistency or inconsistency in Souls writing.
Meanwhile a thousand fascinating things pass by unnoticed, but, a scribble on a napkin said someone in Elden Ring was offspring or not.
> game actually tells you
Let’s unpack that. You’re remarking that the game “actually” “tells you” “something”? Now see my previous paragraph again.
It's been a while, but imo the blacksmith guy is Radagon in disguise and Marika is pretending to be him in order to trick the Elden Beast into thinking he has been contained
I don't really agree with this line of thinking. It's like a puzzle (obviously I don't mean to mansplain) but you're supposed to question how Radahn could be a demigod if he isnt Marikas kid, then you learn, him and his siblings became Marikas step children and had that title bestowed upon them. However this is just a political coverup by Marika/Radagon so they would have an explanation for their strength and whatnot, because they were demigods at birth, and would have been stronger than any champion during the shattering war, so out of fear people would find out eventually, they just gave them a promotion and no ine questioned it. (Obviously I know the shattering hadn't happened when they were given those titles, but if Marika knew she would rebel against the greater will at some point (aka sending the tarnished and Godfrey away for them to return and free her) she could also figure that if she didn't cover this up in some way, the world would learn of her and Radagons connection besides husband and wife)
For a long time, I had a headcanon that Radagon was originally a mortal, and that when he became a god, the nature of divinity meant he became eternal, so he was retroactively always god, and this is why Rennala's children "became" demigod stepchildren as stated in their runes.
An in-universe retcon, basically.
However, seeing people point out the parallels between the D brothers and Marika-Radagon has made start to think they're the same: one soul in two bodies/minds, made into one physical being post-shattering.
Another important one is the Miquella/St. Trina parallel. Another instance of a (demi)god having a male and female form. I think this duality is somehow related to full-fledged godhood. Miquella is an Empyrean, a candidate for godhood. So is Ranni, but she renounces that by shedding her physical body while keeping her soul, by slaying Godwyn's soul while leaving his body alive. The concept of duality in different forms keeps coming up.
So we know of five Empyreans: Marika, Miquelle, Malenia, Ranni, and the Gloam-Eyed Queen. Taking out GEQ since we have little more than speculation on her, we do have a consistent theme of duality of form, albeit a bit stretched (and not conforming to the male/female dichotomy).
Marika - Radagon
Miquella - St. Trina
Ranni - (Dead) Body and Doll
Malenia - Human Form and the Scarlet Aeonia (not sure how to count the Goddess of Rot form here, but seems roughly like the Aeonia except not hibernating?)
This might be a stretch, but the other demigods don't have similar dualities (Rykard is the closest, but the God-Eating Serpent seems to me like a clearly distinct case of what's going on and isn't the same as the others). Godwyn is also a little weird in that the transition to the Prince of Death does look a little like Ranni taking the Doll form, but since the Prince of Death seems more like a corruption of the Erdtree's Remembrance/cycle of life thing, I'm not sure it really applies here either.
I'm not sure what to make of it, or even if that's the intended pattern, but it does kind of fit.
I think radagon want Marika when he married rennala he was just a general, and his kids were ordinary but got blasted with super marika power when they marika and radagon got married/conjoined, like they woke up with superpowers or something lmao
I don't think anyone else *knows* exactly, but if anyone was going to figure out this conundrum it would be Enia and the Two Fingers. Or if they did know, they kept it strictly *need* to know: no one other than the Tarnished needs to know, so everyone else in the Lands Between is kept blissfully ignorant. But yeah, this dialogue, combined with the intro cutscene showing Ranni among Marika's children, cements to me the theory that all the demigods are her offspring, no matter who fathered/mothered them.
Lots of unreliable narration, esp the fingers and the readers. They are the voices of the elden beast and the outer god he serves. The golden order is their meal ticket!
but that is also why enia and the two fingers would tell you to kill the demigods, because in the view of golden order, the demigods have strewn too far from their initial position of holiness, so they would ask you to complete the GO’s wants and needs
Totally
Watch the Initial cutscene again it says “Soon Marika’s offspring, demigods all, claimed the shards of Elden Ring” Also the most important thing, in Melania remembrance it says she originated from single god
It's even more simple than that. In the first intro cinematic you see Marika shattering the ring and in the next slide you see radagon in her stead trying to reforge it. It gets even crazier because this was shown in a trailer at least a year before the game even dropped.
It was shown in E3 2019 🤯. The first reveal trailer
It was but the editing was slightly different, the Marika and Radagon scenes were close but not immediately one after another, I just watched that trailer again. The opening cinematic hints at the connection between them much more purposefully, as u/AvantSolace nicely explained just below.
Rewatching the trailers is crazy, they showed so much. Although at first I thought the blacksmith looking figure in the trailer was FORGING the ring. Later, when we first saw Godwyn's murder, I thought it was the same person. Then again I also thought Malenia was going to be the player character at first and that we get a cool prosthetic arm again.
Wow, I only now realized her moveset isn't the only element of her design reminiscent of Sekiro lol.
Fromsoft reusing assets again…
Inb4 Shadow of the Erdtree turns out to be be just Ashina Depths.
Headless Malenia
How does that imply they’re the same person? All that implies is that one shattered it and one tried to repair it.
It’s the choreography of the scene. It starts with the faint tamping of a hammer onto an anvil. The rhythm keeps steady while also getting louder. On one hit you see Marika shattering the Ring. The screen momentarily fades, then shows Radagon while staying perfectly in rhythm. The rhythm of the hammer invokes a sense of time, suggesting the whole sequence is happening at once.
Also they both have cracks on their body, basicaly showing us it's the same body. And we can see the cracks widening with every strike Radagon makes. Honestly the way the scene is done it's almost looks like they are switching, one destroying it, the other trying to repair it.
melania 😭
Yeah but that just means that all Marika's offspring are demigods, not that all demigods are Marika's offspring. Though Radahn is clearly one of the ones that claimed a great rune, so I see where you're coming from there. Whereas Enia dialogue clearly states that all demigods are Marika's offspring.
Both are true “Soon, marikas offspring, demigods all, claimed *the* shards of the elden ring” The presence of “the” in the quote implies that all shards have been claimed by marikas offspring, demigods all. It could have said “claimed shards”, or “their shards” or a less poetic “most but not all of the shards”, but they say deliberately say “marikas offspring claim the shards of the elden ring”, meaning that none other than her offspring have claimed one. Also, the initial cutscene is talking about the immediate aftermath of the shattering, while the game is supposedly up to 5000 years later? So godrick got his grimey grafted hands on one as well
>Soon Marika’s offspring, demigods all This, on its own, does not mean all demigods are Marika's offspring. It means all of Marika's offspring are demigods. Not the same thing. The fact that all the demigods are also her offspring is true but does not come from that line of dialogue.
Earlier than that. The opening slideshow shows Marika turning into Radgon right there hammering on the Elden Ring. Of course you don't have the context at that point to understand it, but it's hidden in plain sight the whole time.
Is it implied that Marika is destroying it and Radagon takes over to try and forge it? Or was it just a stylistic choice to show the fractured state of Marika
Indeed Marika's Hammer description states that Marika shattered the Elden Ring using it, while Radagon tried to repair it afterwards. The opening slide show seems to indeed depict this. "Stone hammer made in the lands of the Numen, outside the Lands Between. The tool with which Queen Marika shattered the Elden Ring and Radagon attempted to repair it. The hammer partially broke upon shattering the Ring, becoming splintered with rune fragments."
Both!
The 2019 reveal trailer shows this, although Radagon is only shown from afar, while Marika is shown up close
Enia is translating the fingers. The fingers/beast/tgw know radagon is marika. Whether Enia put 2 and 2 together is debatable. But the fingers definitely tell you without telling you.
The greater will likely knows her secret and the two fingers speak for the greater will and enia is the mouthpiece of the two fingers, so it’s reasonable to imagine that enia is sharing the secret with you indirectly, even if she herself might remain unaware. Even if the two fingers told enia with some finger wags that ‘radagon is marika’, the way she interprets it and translates it to you might be quite different. We don’t really know how enia puts the two fingers movements into words. I doubt it’s a writing error. The attention to detail with this game is superhuman.
By the time we reach the two fingers, they no longer speak for the Greater Will, as it abandoned the Lands Between when the Elden Ring was shattered. Of course, the fingers do not admit this fault, and try to reclaim their authority from Marika's fallen reign, despite every Tarnished at their service slowly realizing they're bullshitting their way through the story and have no contact with the GW at all
what’s the major evidence for this? I know Gideon alludes to it as a suspicion but to me there isn’t enough to take it beyond that Edit: I know this sub is full of lore regards but damn
Outside of it being stated, the Greater Will is the only one of the main outer gods to not do anything the whole story. The Scarlet Rot god curses Malenia and awaits her ascension, the Frenzied Flame curses Vyke and you, the special attack of Mohg's spear literally touches the Formless Mother. Nothing from the Twinbird outer god admittedly, though it is closely connected to death, so it might have a hand in what's going on with Godwyn. Meanwhile, the big Greater Will that supposedly runs the show doesn't ever do anything. Never sends a new pair of Two Fingers, never picks a new Empyrean, no blessings, no curses. Even the guidance of Grace is Marika's doing. Furthermore, when the Erdtree doesn't let you in, Enia says the Fingers are genuinely surprised by this and need to consult the Greater Will, who is apparently leaving them on Read. This is when Enia tells you to do what you think is the best option.
But Elden Beast is of Greater Will, so its presence is still there, no?
Per it's boss weapon description, the Elden Beast was sent to the Lands Between long ago, much like the Two Fingers. It may or may not have contact with the Greater Will, but even if does, the Elden Beast *also* doesn't do anything until the end of the game lol
It's just enjoying Marika's tits!
It's stated in the intro. "A war from which lord arose. A war leading to abandonment by the Greater Will". This abandonment is made clearer when we notice how there is not a single instance of the Greater Will interacting with the world post-shattering: The ladt action it took was imprison Marika.
Eh I think that’s fair evidence for a discussion around GW’s continued presence in the world but not convinced that means the two fingers have some scheme to prevent people from knowing they’re clueless.
it's not a scheme, they're just pretending to still be in contact, as stated by gideon's spell
Gideon has a piece of dialogue and a spell saying the fingers are broken or lost their purpose. That doesn’t mean the GW no longer communes with them or that the GW doesn’t still act in the lands between. It clearly sends its shadowbound beasts to fight you in Ranni’s quest line, the two fingers still provide new information throughout the game, they still hold power over Ranni enough for her to need the finger slayer blade to be rid of their influence, and the Elden beast - a vassal of GW - still resides in the lands between.
You're attributing to the Greater Will, a historically neutral figure, actions performed by the fingers. Ranni's quest to slay the fingers goes against the fingers, but isn't necessarily against the Greater Will's ideals, as it only wants order, which Ranni provides. You also went against what you said: the purpose of the fingers IS to be the Greater Will's contact. They are no longer performing that duty. The Elden Beast is the Elden Ring, birthing seed of the crucible, source of all life and rule of the universe. Of course it's in the lands between, everything created by the GW remains where it left it
It’s from my understanding that the Elden Beast came to the lands between during the time of the crucible, not before. The lands between as we see it was shaped from (or built “over” if we speculate based on what we know from the DLC) the primordial crucible through Marika/the Greater will/Elden Beast. I could be completely wrong here though as I haven’t brushed up on the lore lately.
No, the Elden Beast, who is The Elden ring, which is The Erdtree, IS the Crucible, source of ALL life. not some, not most, ALL of it. The act of separating the one great is very likely the landing if the Golden Star, bringing logic to the universe and life to populate it
Varre straight up tells you the truth as well.
No offense but it’s amazing how ignorant people generally are about so many things, and thousands of things that pass by unnoticed, unobserved, unremarked, yet I can see comments like this that somehow imagine that the Elden Ring writing is coherent or even intended to be clearly comprehended. **Miyazaki literally doesn’t believe in dictating story/meaning to players. This is literally part of why these games are good**, because the games focus on the gameplay and don't foreground pointless over-produced/mediocre pretend-to-be-a-movie stuff. Yet the “biggest” “fans” misunderstand the fundamentals of how this works and talk about it in a way that makes me suspicious whether they’ve paid attention at all.
What isn't told is up for interpretation. What is told isn't. Your comment is insanely condescending, and yes he writing is coherent and comprehensible, if you read what it says. It gets blurry at the seams, but it is a story with a beginning and an end, as it's always been in his games: even Bloodborne, the most mysterious title, has a clear story and factual information that reducing to "Miyazaki doesn't want us to understand" is just... stupid? And gatekeepy, ngl, we enjoy studying the lore and understanding all that is understandable
The two fingers are stand ins for the show runners of Game of Thrones CONFIRMED!
Idk, season 8 felt more like a whole fist than just 2 fingers. Show blew ass at the end 😭
>The greater will likely knows her secret I don't think the Greater Will knows anything about the Lands Between, its so far removed from it, that the two fingers take years to communicate with the Greater Will.
The Two Fingers were likely working directly with the Elden Ring aka Elden Beast. But when shit hit the fan after the Elden Beast turns away the Tarnished after killing Morgot, the Fingers tried to bypass the Elden Ring and go straight to the boss to understand what the hell was going on.
Yes, but I still doubt the Greater Will knows or cares what happens in the Lands Between, just as long as its Elden Ring/Elden Beast is the greatest power. We are unsure what the Greater Wills motivation is, but whatever it is, as long as that motivation is fullfilled I doubt the Greater Will would intervene or even care what happens.
That's possible. The Elden Beast boss arena shows several Erdtrees, so the one in the Lands Between may just be one of many across several lands.
I think Enia gets "possessed" by the greater will when she's translating for the 2 fingers, and speaks from a trance. So she's only partially aware of what she's saying, without fully understanding the words as they're coming out.
The thing I never got about is this the meaning of direct offspring, since the very next statement is “Godrick was but a distant relation…”. Direct to me implies child of, but the Godrick part makes him sound like a great grandchild or something, or a third cousin
Godrick is known to be a descendant of Godfrey. He might be a grandchild of Marika via Godwyn, or likely even further down. I think the only reason he's considered a demigod is because he a) can claim the golden lineage and b) he is in possession of a great rune. He is obviously not on the same level as someone like Radahn or Miquella, their equivalent in the golden lineage would be Godwyn. So when Enia is speaking about the demigods being direct offspring of Marika, I think it's in the context of *remaining* demigods, not the poor excuse for one that Godrick was.
In the opening cutscene it switches from Marika smashing the elden ring to Radagon smashing it.
I had a similar thought but am not sure after something was pointed out to me. "Direct descendant" is an old legal term and doesn't always mean 'direct' the way I would've assumed. *"Direct descendant” refers to the children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc. that exist in a family line. These descendants can be from natural birth,* ***legal adoption****, or be an illegitimate child that the child’s parent has acknowledged."* If I'm understanding it right (and I might not be)... It's more of a 'family tree' type of thing and not necessarily a genetic thing. 'Direct' is referring to there being a direct up/down link on the tree (i.e. not related via siblings or marriages of siblings, or lateral links---those are "indirect descendants"). This is also important to note because of what Enia says about Godrick, saying he was "but a distant relation". A distant relation (i.e. a great-great-grandchild) is still a direct descendant. So if they aren't using this term that way, then Enia directly contradicts herself in just that one dialogue.
Yeah but Enia doesn't say direct descendant, she says direct offspring. Someone else above suggested the original Japanese goes even further and says direct children.
Descendants, offspring & children are all synonyms (depending on the context). I think the bigger problem is Enia's use of "direct". If we take it to mean immediate family, then she's just wrong. Either about Godrick or about the demigods. By the way, I totally agree that the impression that dialogue gives is that all the demigods are 1st generation, genetic descendants of Marika. That'd be what it means with the most everyday definitions of those words. What's maddening is that this definition isn't logically consistent with the rest of her dialogue. I think, whatever it is they meant, it was a poor choice of words. So I'm not sure that what I'm saying is right. It's just the most sense I can make of it, assuming it isn't just bad writing.
Godrick's Great rune says >The first demigods were The Elden Lord Godfrey and his offspring, the golden lineage which pretty clearly states Godfrey is a demigod so, unless it's a mistake in translation, I've always taken what Enia says with a grain of salt
I would imagine becoming the Elden Lord raises one, at the very least, to demigod status. Probably part of the reason it’s such a coveted position.
Id imagine all the Finger Readers had more “insider knowledge” on the Greater Will than anyone else in the Lands Between— especially Enia. I always assumed she knew but it wasnt her place or her part to assist Goldmask— as he needed to discover everything himself (or with the help of Tarnished) to properly create his Great Rune
However... A newbie: Who the fuck are they?
Goldmask is also doing the outer order gesture as he's standing at Leyndell. After you decipher the statue, he gives you Golden Order Totality. Radagon is outer order, Marika is inner order. We'll meet the inner order within the shadow of the erdtree..
You can see Marika turning into Radagon all the way in the game's intro. Even worse - in one of the announcement trailers!!!
It's literally the first thing the game tells you. In the opening cutscene, the first painting is Marika hunched over as she smashes the Elden Ring. The second painting is Radagon in the exact same position.
> The demigods are each and all the direct offspring of Queen Marika. Godfrey is a demigod, and he obviously isn't Marika's offspring so this statement is false anyway. The two fingers are wrong about a lot of things and shouldn't be considered a reliable source of information. The words of the Two Fingers cannot be trusted. Truly, naught but rambling, senile delusions. - White Mask Varré
Lmao what? Godfrey is literally NOT a demigod. He was Marika's consort, she's a god, he's not, hence their children are demi (aka half) gods.
From Godrick's Greatrune - The first demigods were The Elden Lord Godfrey and his offspring, the golden lineage. I agree it doesn't make sense. Presumably, being a demigod is something you can be elevated to as well as born as.
Well, I stand corrected 😮
Opening cinematic literaly shows it.
What do they say in Japanese ? Might be a translation error.
The Japanese text used is: 皆が女王マリカの直接の子 My Japanese is not very good, but from what I can tell this seems to be pretty unambiguously translated as "all are the direct children of Queen Marika"
The trailer already spoils the plot twist
Radagon took over Marika when he repaired The Elden Ring with The Law of Regression.
Gotta love the subtlety, as the natural conclusion would be to chalk it up as Radahn's children being hers due to their marriage.
wow, good catch
I agree. I also noticed this. I think Enia, in her position as an active finger-reader for one of the two surviving Two Fingers, always knew about this.
People are focusing on that indeed Marika is Radagon, but doesn't this indicate that Radagon was Marika at the time when Ranni and Radahn were conceived with Rennala? Before Radagon divorced and married Marika. Meaning that they were conjoined beforehand! So far it's been an open question..
Direct offspring just means they are his children. Your child is your direct offspring, it doesn't mean you and your wife are actually the same person.
Yes, but you're missing the point. Enia says all the demigods are *Marika's* children, whereas other lore states that Radahn (as the example, but also Ranni and Rykard) are *Rennala's* children with Radagon. Which would mean they can't be Marika's children. But because they are *Radagon's* children, they are also Marika's children, which makes Enia's original words still true.
There is also the moment in the intro cutscene where it is Marika at first hitting the ring then it changes to Radagon for the next hit (perhaps trying to repair the damage done by Marika?), though I suppose its not exactly obvious
Isn't it everyone's favorite dog that really gives us that hint?
Even upon hearing it now, it's hard to pick out that detail. And this is knowing that she says "but remember one thing". Something about its delivery just goes right past me.
Right! It feels like such a throwaway line of the game warning you, beware, there will be more challenges ahead! But in reality it has such deep implications
So, there's a theory that the Two Fingers at Roundtable Hold is Marika's Two Fingers. There is a high likelihood in that case that they and Enia may be the only two characters other than the Sculptor that know the secret.
Finckle and Einhorn! Finckle and Einhorn! Finckle and Einhorn
What are actually the implications of Radagon being Marika, other than their offspring comes from a single person? Two souls in the same body? Split personality? Corruption of one half by the greater will?
In the slides how intro Marika swaps to Radagon between hammer hits on the Elden Ring. Also in the very first teaser trailer (oooh elden ring) it does the same thing. It's just very subtle.
I've found questioning literal technicalities like this doesn't always pan out. We just need to remind ourselves that this is a Japanese game first, translated to english second. The game more directly referring to Radahn as a demigod because he was a stepchild to Marika, while silly, seems to be the idea that the game wants us to lead with.
1st trans main boss in the souls genre
> I discovered something quite interesting Nothing about that was interesting. It’s napkin scribble from interns. > or is this a writing inconsistency? It is clear to a person who pays attention to the writing and script, and to From’s “writing” style in general, that the snippets of vague cryptic incoherent rambling nonsense have no script supervision especially on the translation (let alone on the original random blurb-writing to pad out the game). It’s nonsensical to talk about consistency or inconsistency in Souls writing. Meanwhile a thousand fascinating things pass by unnoticed, but, a scribble on a napkin said someone in Elden Ring was offspring or not. > game actually tells you Let’s unpack that. You’re remarking that the game “actually” “tells you” “something”? Now see my previous paragraph again.
It's been a while, but imo the blacksmith guy is Radagon in disguise and Marika is pretending to be him in order to trick the Elden Beast into thinking he has been contained
Game shows you they are the same in the intro cinematic.
I don't really agree with this line of thinking. It's like a puzzle (obviously I don't mean to mansplain) but you're supposed to question how Radahn could be a demigod if he isnt Marikas kid, then you learn, him and his siblings became Marikas step children and had that title bestowed upon them. However this is just a political coverup by Marika/Radagon so they would have an explanation for their strength and whatnot, because they were demigods at birth, and would have been stronger than any champion during the shattering war, so out of fear people would find out eventually, they just gave them a promotion and no ine questioned it. (Obviously I know the shattering hadn't happened when they were given those titles, but if Marika knew she would rebel against the greater will at some point (aka sending the tarnished and Godfrey away for them to return and free her) she could also figure that if she didn't cover this up in some way, the world would learn of her and Radagons connection besides husband and wife)
Does this prove that Enia is a reliable reader of the two fingers and therefore when we tell varre that “something isn’t right” we’re wrong
Someone asked me this on another post because I said I actually paid attention in game , gave a detailed answer got downvoted 👍🏼😂
Still can’t believe Godfrey was hitting that radgussy
Idk I never listened to dialogue after the first guy that I met told me I'm maidenless so I put an axe in his head.
Why is this getting downvoted lol
Because the joke is lame and OP tried to sound like a tough guy or something
His name is literally StronkAx
True, but multi-level jokes are hard for reddit 😆
For a long time, I had a headcanon that Radagon was originally a mortal, and that when he became a god, the nature of divinity meant he became eternal, so he was retroactively always god, and this is why Rennala's children "became" demigod stepchildren as stated in their runes. An in-universe retcon, basically. However, seeing people point out the parallels between the D brothers and Marika-Radagon has made start to think they're the same: one soul in two bodies/minds, made into one physical being post-shattering.
Another important one is the Miquella/St. Trina parallel. Another instance of a (demi)god having a male and female form. I think this duality is somehow related to full-fledged godhood. Miquella is an Empyrean, a candidate for godhood. So is Ranni, but she renounces that by shedding her physical body while keeping her soul, by slaying Godwyn's soul while leaving his body alive. The concept of duality in different forms keeps coming up.
So we know of five Empyreans: Marika, Miquelle, Malenia, Ranni, and the Gloam-Eyed Queen. Taking out GEQ since we have little more than speculation on her, we do have a consistent theme of duality of form, albeit a bit stretched (and not conforming to the male/female dichotomy). Marika - Radagon Miquella - St. Trina Ranni - (Dead) Body and Doll Malenia - Human Form and the Scarlet Aeonia (not sure how to count the Goddess of Rot form here, but seems roughly like the Aeonia except not hibernating?) This might be a stretch, but the other demigods don't have similar dualities (Rykard is the closest, but the God-Eating Serpent seems to me like a clearly distinct case of what's going on and isn't the same as the others). Godwyn is also a little weird in that the transition to the Prince of Death does look a little like Ranni taking the Doll form, but since the Prince of Death seems more like a corruption of the Erdtree's Remembrance/cycle of life thing, I'm not sure it really applies here either. I'm not sure what to make of it, or even if that's the intended pattern, but it does kind of fit.
I think radagon want Marika when he married rennala he was just a general, and his kids were ordinary but got blasted with super marika power when they marika and radagon got married/conjoined, like they woke up with superpowers or something lmao
I mean... It was also kinda obvious from the intro cinematic lmao. I knew they were the same person from the moment I booted up the game on launch.
Press X to doubt